madVR - General discussion thread

[huhn]

even 16 FPS can be seen as motion by the human eye i don't know the lower limited. the size/range of the image play a rule too.

low response times doesn't make an image blurry or smearing.
if an image is blurry or smearing or what every you want to call it than it usual comes from the fact the FPS is low and the retina isn't reset between images (or the response time is HIGH). this is calculated in motion resolution.
something LCD and OLED are equally bad at if no BFI, backlight stroking or something like this is used.
actually OLED is at an disadvantaged here because there is no backlight to strobe. so it needs BFI and new OLED screen are literally doing BFI with a 50% image 50% BFI by ruinning at 120 HZ and only displaying 60 image and this is not use able for 24 hz sources.
OLED need an completely different attempted to fix this issue no one has done yet.

actually smearing is used for LCD that have high response time and by creating artificiality images in fast motion.

[mclingo]

think of it this way, when you smear butter across bread there is only one layer and its stretched, LCD on the other hand has more than one payer as the frames are blurred together due to one overlapping the other, with OLED there is no overlap and threfore no blur, hence smearing, the smearing is the image being smeared or stretched nto the gap between frames.

[huhn]

but OLED are blurring the image like every other sample hold display. and i'm not going to use a term for bad response time for good response times.

and just to make that clear OLEd have not the response times LG tells the world: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/sony/a9f/a9f-response-time-2-large.jpg

[mclingo]

I can only speak for my own I guess which is recorded as 0.3 which is around 10+ times faster than current LCD's but I guess yes, even low latency produces some amount of blur, so i guess it can all still be called blurring.

[mytbyte]

motion issues caused by low frame rate would just come under the umbrella of low frame rate I guess.

Low frame rate + low latency response time on OLED is a slightly different issue, its kind of smears the image which is what creates the wobbling effect.

LFRS

low frame rate smearing - OLED

LFRB

low frame rate blurring - LCD

OK, will try to look for the wobbling effect on OLEDs.

Smearing (different from motion blur)that I have witnessed on LCDs seems to be the result of over-driving the cells.

But, as you may observe blurring/smearing effects on sample and hold displays, that's not the only visual effect that happens with 24/25fps, there is a staccato effect going on even on motion-blur affected technologies as well as analog cinema, CRT or plasma...that's the low framerate staccato on pans, more visible on contrasted parts...so it's not technically un-smooth but it is also non smooth to our perception either. If you just say "low frame rate effect", you're not describing the visual manifestation of it.

[mclingo]

i'll see if I can get a video up at some point to show the relative difference between TRUMOTION on / off for this issue.

[huhn]

smearing can happen with over driving too.

not sure why you want to create a video everyone here knows what motion interpolation does.

[mclingo]

Some people wont even test it and wont accept it can actually improve the picture in some circumstances and for this reason wont even bother testing it, i'm thinking a video may convince some to at least have a go as its night and day better for me.

I dont mind if nobody is convinced, it will just mean I have the video there ready should anyone ask again in the future, i'd been meaning to do this for a while.

[iSeries]

I do like what Trumotion does at very low settings, smooth the image without introducing any obvious SOE. Unfortunately, LG's motion interpolation isn't very good, and even at its lowest settings introduces obvious artifacts. So even though I like the smoother motion, I have to leave Trumotion off as I find the artifacts too distracting.

[mclingo]

I dont notice any artefacts on 3 and below, on 4 I get some in 3D stuff but dont notice any in 2D but on 4 soap opera is starting to creep in so 3 is my sweet spot.

[iSeries]

Even at 2 I see obvious artifacting around fast or erratically moving objects, eg hands

[mclingo]

i'm sat about 8ft from a 65 inch, what about you?

I move into about 6 ft for 3D movies though.

[iSeries]

About 10ft. I'd like to be able to use it lol but even though I might only see occasional artifacting, that's too much for me. The algorithm seems to get tripped up too easily. Even the Vizio I had for a couple of weeks before swapping it out for a C7 had better motion interpolation, and that was half the price of this TV.

So while the panel tech is great (aside from the infamous jail bars rearing their head every now and then during dark scenes), LG has some catching up to do in other areas

[mclingo]

I got really lucky with the jail bars, some peoples were pretty bad, this is my 3rd TV though, first one had a terrible stain covering half the panel which was also common early on before they fixed that with later panels the same year (2015), my second unit had really bad xtalk as the 3D filter wasnt sitting straight. 3rd time lucky.

I must just not be as sensitive to artifacts as you then as I doubt my earlier model will have better processing than yours.

[iSeries]

My quest for a TV began in August. Bought a Vizio M65. Returned it same day, just not a good TV. Bought Vizio P65 - much better. Great picture actually. Unfortunately had an inch wide vertical band on the left side of the screen, visible in all content. Vizio support were admittedly great, and arranged a swap. The replacement was actually worse in this regard and near-black this thing was a mess. Returned for refund. Local BestBuy had two BNIB C7s on at a clearance price. Sprung for one, and although there were no obvious jailbars, there was a very obvious blue tint down the left side of the screen. Gave it a week but no improvement. Returned to BestBuy and swapped for the other one they had (and incidentally in-between me buying and returning they had reduced the price by another $500 so they gave me that back). The new one has no tinting that I can see but does have some jailbars, which admittedly as I rack up the hours (110 hours now) are diminishing. When I first turned it on and watched something though, I nearly choked on my pinot noir, the bars were that bad (first world problems eh). I am at the point now where I've accepted that I am not going to get a perfect TV, no matter how much I spend. So I'm just accepting this for what it is, much to the wife's relief.

Yeah, SOE and artifacts are all very subjective (wife doesn't seem to notice...or care). I could probably even get used to higher levels of Trumotion, but I just can't get used to the artifacts. So I don't use it at all

[huhn]

i'm entering the place where i look for customisable TV mainboard with DP 1.4.

i'm looking for this from time to time for a year now with no real progress. finding a mainboard is not hard hard at all but...

[mclingo]

My quest for a TV began in August.....

this is quite a familiar tale for AV forum dwellers I think, especially since OLEDS came out. My first 5k TV back in 2015 was an LED IPS which was terrible, it was so bad I didnt even keep it for an hour, I turned it on, saw how bad the blacks were in dim light and took it back, you really couldnt tell in the showroom. £650 spent.

My next one was a used Samsung pretty decent VA panel from ebay, it cost me £1000, got it home, xtalk on 3D all over the place. Refund.

Next one Sony D model 2015, this was a fantastic TV but I couldnt get a good one. I had 4 of these, all four had a colour issues at the edges like the were bent backward and degrading at an angle, very odd they were all identically broken. £2400 spent.


At this point I thought, feck it, i'm getting the best TV currently available, and that should be the end of my problems... my problems finally end ed with EF950 OLED number 3, first two had 3D filter misaligned and tinting.

So I went from £650 all the way up to £3500, and this all happened in the space of a month I think it was.

Real world problems indeed :)

[SamuriHL]

Every TV is a compromise. I bought my Panny plasma because at the time it was considered one of the best PQ experiences you could get at home. I've absolutely loved that screen. I moved it to my bedroom when I got the C8. :D The C8 is fantastic but not without its quirks. Given what I paid for it, I've zero complaints as I got a really good deal. Some of the best home viewing experiences I've ever had come from that screen. But no TV is going to be "perfect". Even a theoretical 10000 nit display with perfect color reproduction would have some compromise ($$$$$$$). :) We find the compromises we can live with and tune madvr to compensate to our liking.

[iSeries]

I guess what people are willing to compromise on diminishes as the cost increases. I was just watching a TV show and the camera was perfectly still, while a light bulb in a room got dimmer and then brighter over and over. As the room in the show got dimmer, the bars came into view, and then disappeared as the room got brighter. It was quite funny to watch. Until I remembered I paid 3 grand for this TV. Suddenly it wasn't quite so funny

[mclingo]

yeah, when I got mine and saw those bars, thats pretty much what I thought, 3.5k down and whats this sh++. However it became pretty clear very quickly the overall experience I was getting with this TV far outweighed this issue compared to what I would have got with an equally priced LCD, grey blacks, blooming, dirty screen effect etc.

The main thing for me was the utterly mind blowing passive OLED 3D, I wasnt expecting this to be anywhere near as good as it is, its a much better experience than 3D at the cinema due to better PQ and perfect blacks, its such a shame LG bottled out of 3D just when they'd perfected it.

My next Tv will hopefully be a MICRO LED tv if they can get it down to 65 inches.

[SamuriHL]

I SOOOO wish my C8 had 3D. I kept the Panny plasma for that reason. But man I wish they kept 3D on OLED.

[mclingo]

i'll be keeping mine until it breaks because of 3D, the only thing that might tempt me away is a micro LED TV or if LG ever completely fix the bars at near black, still not really bothered about HDR.

[SamuriHL]

That's why I'm holding onto the Panny plasma. That thing is a freaking beast. One could argue that a 65" tv is overkill for a 12sq/ft bedroom, but, whatever. :D

[mytbyte]

That's why I'm holding onto the Panny plasma. That thing is a freaking beast. One could argue that a 65" tv is overkill for a 12sq/ft bedroom, but, whatever. :D

HDR->SDR looks more convincing on a 300 nit Panny plasma than a 500 nit Panny VA LED here:rolleyes:

[SamuriHL]

Of that I have very little doubt. Unfortunately I don't have a madvr box in that room, only a shield. Once I find a new job (about to be laid off soon) I'll look into building something once I upgrade my main HTPC in the living room. It'd be nice to throw the 1060 in a box for that room.

[mytbyte]

Of that I have very little doubt. Unfortunately I don't have a madvr box in that room, only a shield. Once I find a new job (about to be laid off soon) I'll look into building something once I upgrade my main HTPC in the living room. It'd be nice to throw the 1060 in a box for that room.

And I can tell you that 3D on that Panny UHD LED is really just an afterthough - crosstalk is abysmal and it's half-resolution - the plasma kills it hands down. It's handy though because I use it as a second preview monitor to judge 3D depth/parallax when I work on a project. That was one of the last 40" TVs to feature 3D. Other choice was OLED -too expensive and too large for viewing so close up.

[SamuriHL]

I love the plasma especially for 3d. I've not had any other 3d tv's so I can't compare. My dad has a Samsung LED and it looks good, but, not as good as plasma.

[mclingo]

My first 3D TV was a 40 inch samsung D8000, famntastic VA panel high end TV but just too small, it wasnt passive 3D though so it was very xtalky. I then upgraded to 55 inch Samsung F6570 I think it was, another decent VA panel, 3D was better but still not passive, I liked 3D at that point but I could take it or leave it I guess.

It wasnt until I saw it on my 65 OLED that it really came to life, everything pops and it with it being pretty much xtalk free the image is totally sick. The first Movie I watched on it was AVATOR, not my favourite movie by any means but its the perfect 3D OLED showcase movie, i'd seen it before on the other two TV's but this was a whole new game, it totally blew me away.

This is why there was a backlash when LG dumped it and a petition which got thousands of sigs, OLED passive 3D is way better than anythng HDR can add, a lot of people just dont know how good it really is and argue against 3D based on false assertions about how it looked on their active 3D LCD's

On mine its better than the 3D at the cinema PQ wise by a long way.

[mytbyte]

On mine its better than the 3D at the cinema PQ wise by a long way.

Been to a 3D DCP check lately of a 3D short I worked on lately, first in an old RealD setup and then in a new one with a silver screen and a laser projector. The first was, of course, significantly dimmed and almost no crosstalk, but the latter had immense crosstalk and washed out colors, probably due to elevated brightness. It was pretty much the same brightness with or without glasses :D

As I couldn't judge the color fidelity of commercial features shown there, they had the same crosstalk problem as did my own project.

[nevcairiel]

My favorite cinema has a IMAX 3D projector, while their type of glasses is a tad bit annoying (you cannot tilt your head or it stops working), otherwise the image is perfect. No cross talk, plenty brightness. Never seen any TV come even close to that.
(Nevermind that for me personally the 3D effect really doesn't enhance the movie experience anyway.)

[mclingo]

yeah its subjective opinion but I saw Star Trek Into Darkness in IMAX 3D, cost me a small fortune if memory serves, it still looks loads better on my OLED due to the perfect inky blacks that you just dont get even with the best projectors.

I dont remember having to keep my head particularly straight though, I dont have to at home which is also passive. I can sit comfortably without worrying about it or seeing any XTALK.

I'd love to see 3D come back with MICRO LED, passive or glasses free, they'd have my cash in the bag.

[Warner306]

I can only see it coming back if they can come up with a usable format that doesn't require 3D glasses. It is too hard to train people to watch TV with special glasses.

[mclingo]

I'm under no illusion it will ever come back to me honest, its just a dream of mine.

I think glasses were always a only part of the problem, if the experience is good enough, generally people dont mind wearing them, cinema 3D is still quite popular. Passives weigh nothing and cost pennies, active were heavier, expensive and flickered which was a problem though.

I think the main issue is that it just didnt look very good on sub 55 inch TV's which most people had, the really get the most out of it you need a huge TV. I would also say that most 3D conversions were done fairly poorly too with little or no pop at all and just a bit of depth, spiderman 2 is one of the worst 3D conversions i've seen, utterly pointless.

All of the marvel conversions have been pretty good, Titanic is unbelievably good but there was just too much dross out there.

[SamuriHL]

That's the issue right there. MOST 3D is done as a conversion after the fact. The reason Avatar looked as good as it did was because of how it was shot. I suspect the new Avatar movies coming out over the next few years will kick off renewed interest, but, we'll see. Quite frankly, 8K is probably well suited for a truly spectacular 3D experience.

[kostik]

What size do you set for CPU queue and GPU queue ? If I have quiet good GPU (GTX 1080) and fine (CPU) what settings would you suggest for cpu\gpu queue size?

[Asmodian]

I like lower sizes, something like GPU 6 and CPU 12 works well for me, with 3 frames presented in advance.

Queues are only there as pre-rendered frames in case there is a stall on the system. I never get dropped frames with even smaller queues so there is no reason to use large queues. Also Windows 10 seems a little less odd with presented frames in advance at 3 or below. GPU memory use is lower and startup latency may be a tiny bit better too (possibly placebo).

I have a 2080 Ti and a 7900X at 4.7 GHz.

[mclingo]

ive been having another look at one of my two problems I have with me AMD card, the loss of HDMI when stopping a 3D movie.

this still really baffles me and I still think its something to do with MADVR but I just cant track it down, I have found something new though. When the movie stops it should turn 3D off which it does, it shows 3D IS NOW OFF on the TV, then it should drop back to 2160p60 from 1080p23 and it also does this to as when I lose HDMI I can still VNC on and see my desktop and if I look at my monitor properties it shows its outputting 2160p60.

the new odd thing I found is that if I use set res to change my output to 2160p23 my desktop comes back and I can then change it back to 2160p but if I change it to 1080p60 and the picture comes back, if if then change it straight to 2160p60 I lose HDMI again, its like something is preventing my PC or TV outputting 2160p60.

However... if I then change it to 2160p23 I get the picture again and if I then change it to 2160p60 it changes back again and I get HDMI again.

I think this has to be an an issue with MADVR as when the 3D implementation was written there were no 4K 3D TV's, i'm betting the reason I dont have this problem with MPC or KODI DS is that there is a bug with windows and 1080p /4k 3D switching that MADSHI isnt aware of.

Has anyone else got an AMD card with a 4k 3D TV?

[NoTechi]

I am just using MPC-BE since I started with my htpc/madvr setup and I really like it since it just plays everything including iso and 3Dmvc out of the box and works great. I also talked a friend into using my setup.
In the process to change my setup from full screen exclusive with copy back in lav filter to d3d11 and windowed mode I am running into some problems where I am really stuck now. I was not sure where to post it since it might not be mpc-be related and could be lav or madvr settings. If someone has ideas what to try it would be great since we are kinda stuck atm.

My current problems:
1. I always get subtitles even though in lav filters the subtitles are turned off. I always have to right click once a movie started and turn subtitles off manually in mpc-be.
2. Mpc window is always starting in a tiny window and I have to double click to bring it to full screen even though I enabled in mpc to remember the window size and I left the last movie from windowed full screen.
3. The most critical problem I have at the moment being in windowed mode is that seek/fast forward is always causing the video to hang (looks like a few frames are being repeated over and over) but the sound is being played correctly. I never had problems in full screen exclusive and madvr seek bar.
4. One other strange behavior I am experiencing with my JVC is that it is switching to HDR mode on HDR titels even though I did not changed the settings in madvr in regards to sending bt2020 and output in HDR format. The JVC was not switching to HDR when I used exclusive full screen.
5. Also a very strange behavior is that my jvc is not switching to 3d mode anymore when playing a 3D mvc file. Strange is that I still have 3D working it is just in a different profile like bt2020 and not in 3D. Not sure if there is a difference and why it is not switching to 3D. This problem I had also in full screen exclusive lately and I can't remember when this started.

My friend just has one main problem. Somehow we can't get his iso files linked to mpc-be. We tried everything like the admin file extension function in mpc or even with third party software. Strange is that going into windows 10 apps settings where you can assign apps to file extensions the extensions iso is not even listed there....

If you got any ideas what we could try please let us know it would be really appreciated since we are getting into a stuck/frustrated mode. :(

NoTechi

[mclingo]

I am just using MPC-BE since I started with my htpc/madvr setup and I really like it since it just plays everything including iso and 3Dmvc out of the box and works great. I also talked a friend into using my setup.
In the process to change my setup from full screen exclusive with copy back in lav filter to d3d11 and windowed mode I am running into some problems where I am really stuck now. I was not sure where to post it since it might not be mpc-be related and could be lav or madvr settings. If someone has ideas what to try it would be great since we are kinda stuck atm.

My current problems:
1. I always get subtitles even though in lav filters the subtitles are turned off. I always have to right click once a movie started and turn subtitles off manually in mpc-be.
2. Mpc window is always starting in a tiny window and I have to double click to bring it to full screen even though I enabled in mpc to remember the window size and I left the last movie from windowed full screen.
3. The most critical problem I have at the moment being in windowed mode is that seek/fast forward is always causing the video to hang (looks like a few frames are being repeated over and over) but the sound is being played correctly. I never had problems in full screen exclusive and madvr seek bar.
4. One other strange behavior I am experiencing with my JVC is that it is switching to HDR mode on HDR titels even though I did not changed the settings in madvr in regards to sending bt2020 and output in HDR format. The JVC was not switching to HDR when I used exclusive full screen.
5. Also a very strange behavior is that my jvc is not switching to 3d mode anymore when playing a 3D mvc file. Strange is that I still have 3D working it is just in a different profile like bt2020 and not in 3D. Not sure if there is a difference and why it is not switching to 3D. This problem I had also in full screen exclusive lately and I can't remember when this started.

My friend just has one main problem. Somehow we can't get his iso files linked to mpc-be. We tried everything like the admin file extension function in mpc or even with third party software. Strange is that going into windows 10 apps settings where you can assign apps to file extensions the extensions iso is not even listed there....

If you got any ideas what we could try please let us know it would be really appreciated since we are getting into a stuck/frustrated mode. :(

NoTechi


ive always had issues with MP-BE and MADVR, I just use MPC-BE for previewing movies quickly, I then sit back and play the full movie in KODI DS or sometimes MPC-BE. Try MPC-HC, its easier to setup I find and is a bit more stable.

[NoTechi]

ive always had issues with MP-BE and MADVR, I just use MPC-BE for previewing movies quickly, I then sit back and play the full movie in KODI DS or sometimes MPC-BE. Try MPC-HC, its easier to setup I find and is a bit more stable.

I never considered DS Player since it can't handle 3D mvc and MPC-HC since it can't handle iso out of the box. Did that changed?

NoTechi

[mclingo]

I never use out of the box setup as you are tied to old versions of lAV filters, I always use LAV as external filerts, this is best way. KODI DS uses MADVR so it plays MVC 3D fine, its my main player as it hosts my entire collection, its pretty dawn great. It needs updating though as the downloaded version has old versions of LAV filters onboard but you can update those manually.

MPC-HC just needs external filters configuring, and local filters turned off, not much to do and you only have to do it once.

Main KODI DS thread.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&page=447

[NoTechi]

Thanks will try :)

[clsid]

MPC-HC v1.8.3 contains the very recent LAV v0.73.
For H.264 MVC you only need Intel MediaSDK (http://files2.codecguide.com/intel_libmfxsw.exe) plugin.
Windows 10 has ability to mount ISOs as a virtual drive. Using AutoPlay should do the rest.

[mclingo]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBigP9ZOhxhvo7JcXoXJw


bit of fun, someone posted this on my facebook, thought i'd accidentally turned my 2D-3D converter on my TV on, really cool 3D effect / optical illusion - or is it just my Eyes?

[iSeries]

j82k made a video of the flashing near black issue on 2018 LG OLEDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl_t3UQ3gAk

[mclingo]

can post you show title, the episode number and the time this clip occurs so I can have a look myself. Is this a stream rip or bluray rip?

sorry missed the other post, got the clips now.

[iSeries]

can post you show title, the episode number and the time this clip occurs so I can have a look myself. Is this a stream rip or bluray rip?

It's a stream from The Handsmaids Tale, episode 8 of season 2, just after the 46 minute mark. The issue seems less pronounced on high bitrate content but I've even been seeing it when playing bluray discs. I haven't really seen it at all in HDR content

[mclingo]

Hi, be interesting to see what they look like on my 2015 OLED, I can see on my monitor at work that there is a lot of low ire noise in those clips though.

I'll report back later when i'm home.

[iSeries]

Hi, be interesting to see what they look like on my 2015 OLED, I can see on my monitor at work that there is a lot of low ire noise in those clips though.

I'll report back later when i'm home.

It was recorded at high ISO which accounts for a lot of the noise. Those artifacts that flash are actually in the source - but it's the TV making them flash - there should be no change to the brightness of those pixels when a paused image is moved around the screen but as you can see in the video, shifting the paused image around the screen causes the TV to flash up all those macroblocks. I've never seen that happen on any other TV

[mclingo]

i'll need to see it on mine before I can comment further but it sounds normal now you've explained it like that, OLED just cant hide really bad source problems, the movie snowpiercer is completely unwatchable without MADVR, there are flashing blocks and all sorts of crap on the screen which does also change when you pause the movie and movie a windowed box about the screen.

Check this disaster of a clip:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgvFafeelEBigP96N4PQZzBs4iPcfg

This covered MADVR and KODI DS which is still the best MADVR based player out there, even though it hasnt been updated in ages. IMHO



I've come to terms with my OLED no handling noise well, I try to avoid poor rips and use MADVR to clean up the image the best I can where I can. These movies look much worse on my 2017 LCD though, not only are they a grey mess but when the lights are out I can still see the macroblocking, its just less pronounced as LCD dynamic range in dark scenes is pants.