madVR - General discussion thread

[SamuriHL]

No idea. It took me a while to get it working at all so I don't have any idea what it would take to do what you're asking.

[mclingo]

Just to reiterate I am sincere about keeping this civil, this isn’t meant to be a personal attack, we are having an discussion as far as I am concerned, please don’t read anything else into this, even If I am being critical, I’m trying to have an objective discussion.

Sorry but I cant agree that all AMD users are just lucky mate, that’s just silly. If we cant at least agree on the below there really is no point anyone discussing this ever as these are objective facts.

• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.

• NVIDIA cards are more expensive and so as you can get more for your money with AMD cards which can narrow the gap a little.


• AMD cards have native support for 23,976 playback and NVIDIA card don’t, this means that AMD users can achieve seamless playback at all times as long as they are setup correctly but NVIDIA users will always get at least one frame drop every 20-30 mins in 2D playback and 4-13 minutes in 3D MVC playback.

• There are other issues with NVIDA and AMD cards but these are all defeatable but using the relevant driver, current driver for AMD and pre 4xxx for NVIDIA.

[huhn]

• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.

while NGU runs terrible on polaris. AMD card they are totally great with madVR usually better than nvidia cards.

and games are actually running very similar between a 1060 and a 580. the 580 is only a 15 % bigger chip and has far lower clocks than the 1060. so it is doing pretty good.

vega cards are pretty bad on the other hand. the chip is huge more than double that of a polaris chip for only 50 %gain over a RX 580.
• NVIDIA cards are more expensive and so as you can get more for your money with AMD cards which can narrow the gap a little.
before you talked about 40% more power in madVR and games while this is true NGU but how can you get more for your moneny when a 1060 and rx 580 are priced similar?
a 580 8 GB is at around the same price as a 1060
a 1070 ti is a similar if not cheaper and a better card than a vega 56
a 1080 is a similar if not cheaper and a better card than a vega 64

at the mining crisis nvidia cards where far cheaper than AMD cards atm it "looks" like AMD cards are getting cheaper.
there is a other polaris rebrand rumoured maybe this has something todo with it.
• AMD cards have native support for 23,976 playback and NVIDIA card don’t, this means that AMD users can achieve seamless playback at all times as long as they are setup correctly but NVIDIA users will always get at least one frame drop every 20-30 mins in 2D playback and 4-13 minutes in 3D MVC playback.

i can right now add an amd card into my system and it will not get seamless playback with a simple reasons i have soundcards with decent DAC.i used AMD card in the past for my HTPC and i needed a custom resolution as expected.
the out of the box clocks from AMD and intel are both clocser out of the box if that'S want you want to hear.

so i'm pretty much disagreeing with everything here. and i have price data to back it up and countless multi game reviews.

• There are other issues with NVIDA and AMD cards but these are all defeatable but using the relevant driver, current driver for AMD and pre 4xxx for NVIDIA.

there is so much broken about both and there are some very old ones.
the mismatched chroma on nvidia DXVA processing is just a feature now so old is it.

[mclingo]

while ...

NVIDIA wins hand down on gaming which equates to better performance in MADVR, no argument, and of story.

If putting an AMD card in your system doesnt work for you for technical reasons again, yup, no argument there, that makes sense.

but... AMD users arent telling NVIDIA users their cards are crap at gaming, this is whats happening all the time on the MADVR forum with AMD cards, AMD cards are really good HTPC cards but NVIDIA users are hammering them all the time for their HTPC abilities when they are clearly better in most situations right now and have been for ages.

owning an nvidia card is a bit like having a sports car which breaks down all the time, its sexy, its expensive, it pulls the birds but when you absolutely must get there on time, you're driving the ford focus, I know shit all about cars but you get an analogy :)

if NVIDIA ever sort out 3D and 23,796 they will piss all over AMD cards and ill be first in the queue but right now, when i'm watching a movie I want a steel wheels not spinning rims.

:)

[huhn]

sorry mclingo no. back your objective fact up with something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9lySsrYcw

there is one algorithm polaris doesn't like and that's it.

[famasfilms]

makes new thread to avoid clogging up the main madvr thread

new madvr thread descends into pedantic back and forth arguments

lol

[mclingo]

sorry mclingo no. back your objective fact up with something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9lySsrYcw

there is one algorithm polaris doesn't like and that's it.

I have to say i'm a bit lost here, are you deliberately not reading what i'm writing, if your not willing to a have reasonable discussion about this then lets stop it here.

[Warner306]

This is with madshi's hdr10000nitcolored test pattern:

Pass-through

https://i.postimg.cc/SxwrgJ2m/pass-through.png

madvr 800 nit target, high detail recovery

https://i.postimg.cc/15VMwGXv/madvr_tonemap.png

I don't think there is anything wrong with madVR's tone mapping, but there appears to be some double processing going on here. There is some artifacting on the left side of the pattern and the color is desaturating too fast. There should still be plenty of saturation at 1,000 nits. I would guess this would give you a worse image, not a better image with actual content.

The 2018 LG OLEDs are known to have some of the best tone mapping of any display on the market. You shouldn't need to improve the image much further.

Check out the scores for tone mapping in this TV shootout from Sound & Vision for the best high-end displays in North America: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9f-oled-crowned-%E2%80%98king-tv%E2%80%99-2018-shootout

[huhn]

I have to say i'm a bit lost here, are you deliberately not reading what i'm writing, if your not willing to a have reasonable discussion about this then lets stop it here.
• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.
NVIDIA wins hand down on gaming which equates to better performance in MADVR, no argument, and of story.
you state stuff like this.

where does nvidia wins hands down in gaming...
back your facts up!

then you come up with this:
but... AMD users arent telling NVIDIA users their cards are crap at gaming, this is whats happening all the time on the MADVR forum with AMD cards, AMD cards are really good HTPC cards but NVIDIA users are hammering them all the time for their HTPC abilities when they are clearly better in most situations right now and have been for ages.

hardware decoder support has nothing todo with HTPC?
the is not that simple.

[SamuriHL]

I don't think there is anything wrong with madVR's tone mapping, but there appears to be some double processing going on here. There is some artifacting on the left side of the pattern and the color is desaturating too fast. There should still be plenty of saturation at 1,000 nits. I would guess this would give you a worse image, not a better image with actual content.

The 2018 LG OLEDs are known to have some of the best tone mapping of any display on the market. You shouldn't need to improve the image much further.

Check out the scores for tone mapping in this TV shootout from Sound & Vision for the best high-end displays in North America: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9f-oled-crowned-%E2%80%98king-tv%E2%80%99-2018-shootoutBelieve me I've no issue with the LG at all. I just like playing lol. Madshi isn't done with his tone mapping yet. Saturation boost is what they're testing now. Those screen shots were taken on 0.9.17 and not the new test build. With the new test build I'm able to bring saturation boost back without sacrificing details. It does sacrifice luminance so there's a balancing act going on. Like I said the LG dynamic tone mapping is very well done and I have no complaints.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

HDR -> SDR doesn't look like that on a the same test pattern. It is an issue with HDR video output. I don't think the current test builds will help with this.

[SamuriHL]

Maybe. I really don't know. I've not played with non-HDR tone mapping since he fixed the HDR output option. Maybe I'll play around with it later.

[SamuriHL]

You should check out his latest test build. Holy snikes! I'm seriously impressed.

[iSeries]

^^ output as hdr or sdr? I saw the latest test build posted, but I assumed the improvements were for hdr to sdr conversion

[SamuriHL]

They certainly show a vast improvement in HDR output for me. The only way to know for sure is to test it.

[mclingo]

started noticing another issue with WIN 10 1809, it gettting a bit annoying.

When my deskop resizes back to 4k from 1080p my task bar is double the width and I have drag it down to normal height every time, only does this coming out of 3D movies. Its nothing to do with 3D though as I can replicate this by putting my desktop in 108p mode and switch back to 4k mode using set res, its doesnt do it every time though.

odd.


EDIT - solved that by turning off "lock tool bar", odd that its doing exactly the opposite of what it should be doing :)

[mclingo]

if anyone wants to pickup the OLED crushing conversation here is the place.

Personally I dont mind a slight black crush as I watch a lot of my material in pitch black with no bias lighting, this is subjective, I usually set my black clipping to 19 and above flashing.

my other settings are:

OLED 60
Brightness 52
contrast 85
gamma 2.2

[Betroz]

I will re-post here what I did in the other thread :

I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer :)

With these settings, both black level tests posted here show black crush :

- GPU set to Full RGB and 0-255 in Nvidia settings
- MadVr set to 0-255
- TV set to :

Black level HIGH
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 49
OLED light 50

Now the Windows desktop is brighter since I have the TV set to High in Black Level, and as I said the test pattern is very dark. I can't see all the boxes.

[Betroz]

Small update here : I have increased my TV brightness to 53, and now I pass the THX Optimizer test image for brightness. Image here : https://ibb.co/dfZPLf

Edit : The opening scene in Star Wars the last Jedi when you see the scrolling text over the dark sky with stars, with TV Black level set to Low, the black is perfect black. With Black Level set to High, black is not pitch black anymore. All this confirms my previous testing. So...

[VBB]

You're using the wrong movie to test black level. The Last Jedi doesn't have perfectly black space.

Like others have said, Black Level High is the correct match for GPU 0-255 and madVR 0-255. On my C7, the correct Brightness setting is 51. You can determine this in a dark room with your eyes adjusted. Raise Brightness one by one until you see the faintest glow. Then back it up one. Even with Brightness set correctly, though, you'll still get a bit of black crush on these OLEDs. There are some ways around that. In my case, there was a jump when going from 44 to 45 OLED Light, which allowed me to see all squares in the test pattern. Combined with a 3D LUT, this eliminated all remaining black crush.

[huhn]

don't make it so complicated what do you see on this image?

[Betroz]

You're using the wrong movie to test black level. The Last Jedi doesn't have perfectly black space.

Like others have said, Black Level High is the correct match for GPU 0-255 and madVR 0-255. On my C7, the correct Brightness setting is 51.

Yes I think so too. I didn't just use The last Jedi to test this. I used an episode av The Man In The High Castle aswell. If I have my TV at Low, GPU at 0-255 and MadVr at 0-255, then I loose a lot at shadow detail. To the point where I can't see details on the Nazi uniform when Obergruppenführer John Smith is talking in his office in season 3 episode 2.

So TV at High and the rest at 0-255 full RGB seems to be the best, but I don't know if the test pattern of blocks are showing correctly on my setup. The THX Optimizer test for brightness is much more easy to understand. Here is a discription of how to use that for those who don't know : https://imgur.com/r/hometheater/RjQoJ

[blu3wh0]

Don't bother with the image tests on an LG OLED. The correct way to set brightness for OLEDs in SDR is to use a perfect black scene/image in a room as dark as you can make it, then toggle brightness up until you see a light glow on the black. Make sure you let your eyes adjust to the darkness. You should be able to toggle on between this value and the previous one to turn the glow on/off. The last value that doesn't cause a glow is the correct brightness setting. Don't bother with contrast since 85 is usually already the correct value. My settings for LG OLED B7 SDR in ISF Dark Mode are as follows:

PC Mode 4:4:4 8 bits
OLED: 29 (120 nits)
Contrast: 85
Brightness: 51
Color: 46
Color Range: Extended
Range: Auto (High)
Gamma: BT.1886 (2.4)

As a note for PC Mode, this mode will force 4:4:4 8 bit Rec709 (at least for 7 series) regardless of what you send it, which means if you don't send it 4:4:4 8 bit, it can really screw with your image and cause banding since it doesn't do a proper conversion.

I also calibrated RGB balance and gamma. I don't use a 3D LUT anymore because it is extremely difficult for me to get proper measurements for it since OLEDs are very unstable in subsequent measurements, so the 3D LUT always had some small issues. But even without a 3D LUT, these OLEDs are almost perfect after calibration. In regards to the discussion in the other thread, I can see 17 on my TV in 0-255 range if I look for it in a dark room after my eyes have adjusted. It is very faint, but is clearly not pure black, which means it is a level just above that, as it should be. Checking this in low range after setting madVR to low, gets you almost the exact same results, although if you forced me, I would say the low/low is just a fraction more visible. None of this would matter under actual viewing conditions.

FYI, do not change any of the settings in HDR/Dolby Vision mode. In HDR mode, the only thing you should do if you have a meter is set the RGB balance.

[mclingo]

I still find the black clipping pattern best for me, always been happy with my OLED black performance but there is no fixing the grey compressed mess that is the man in the high castle unless you wait for bluray versions. I watched the first two seasons on amazon with a 200gig virgin connection and I still get horrific compression artefacts, watched the 3rd on bluray, night and day difference. I am told this season is just as bad if not worse.

[mytbyte]

Don't bother with the image tests on an LG OLED...

...FYI, do not change any of the settings in HDR/Dolby Vision mode. In HDR mode, the only thing you should do if you have a meter is set the RGB balance.

R.Masciola's UHD HDR patterns set has separate OLED patterns for each model year as well as other OLED-specific patterns, didn't even bother to understand what's going on - it's a madhouse, a MADHOUSE! (Charlton Heston)

[blu3wh0]

That comment was specifically for configuring the normal settings, specifically brightness. Obviously you need patterns + meter for actual calibration (RGB balance, gamma/luminance, CMS), and unless you know exactly what you are doing, adjusting the 20 point calibration and CMS in HDR can really screw you over even if it looks fine on patterns. I only adjusted the 2-point settings for RGB balance in HDR, which was more than enough to get almost all 20 points in line. If you adjust any on the normal settings for HDR, you are going to be changing the tone mapping, most likely for the worse.

[SamuriHL]

In my setup, I go for 16-235 in madvr, full on gpu, and black low on the C8. This configuration gives me what i need. The reason I don't go for full and black high is because I have everything going through a receiver and don't feel like having to switch the tv every time I change to a different device. Yes, I'm lazy. LOL But the PQ I get is absolutely fantastic with this setup. Does it crush the desktop? Sure, but, I don't care because lately I've only been doing HTPC stuff on it. This works for me. It's not necessarily what I'd recommend for others.

[Betroz]

As a note for PC Mode, this mode will force 4:4:4 8 bit Rec709 (at least for 7 series) regardless of what you send it, which means if you don't send it 4:4:4 8 bit, it can really screw with your image and cause banding since it doesn't do a proper conversion.


I use HDMI mode to my PC, because in PC mode my C8 disables TruMotion completely, and I want/need TruMotion on this TV! I will send it back (50 day open purchase). The reason being bad motion performance.

[mclingo]

My HTPC is my main daily driver so I use it for everything, WEB/TORRENTS/SERVER duties/EMAIL etc, having to swap presets every time I play a video is a non starter for me but i'd defo switch to LOW if I was just using it for HTPC duties.

I also use HDMI / BLURAY model on my TV to also get trumotion, 3 is perfect for me for smoothing out panning shots, this is not really a motion issue though, OLED having such a low altency response time leaves no bluring in panning shots so these can leave jagged edges on brighter elements which would be blurred out on an LCD TV, i've discussed this before.

I have no actual motion issues on my panel beyond that, not even in the apps, I never watch terrestrial TV though so I cant speak for that, is this where you get motion issues, is it judder or something else?

[Betroz]

I have no actual motion issues on my panel beyond that, not even in the apps, I never watch terrestrial TV though so I cant speak for that, is this where you get motion issues, is it judder or something else?

From what I understand it is stutter, and I see it not only in wide panning shots. I guess I'm sensitive to this. Anyways I will swap my C8 out for other TV.

[Warner306]

The OLEDs have an almost perfect response time, so they hold each frame for the correct amount of time instead of blending them together. At 24p, this creates some stutter due to the low frame count.

[SamuriHL]

While that's true, I see no reason to correct it IMO. It's not the display's issue that it's so damn fast. LOL :D Seriously, though, I prefer the OLED response time even if I have to live with the occasional stuttering. It's not been a huge issue in my viewing so far, but, I've only owned this thing a few months.

[mytbyte]

Are you guys sure you don't mean judder?

[famasfilms]

Well that's your choice, but I'm not going to settle for crushed near-black just because I don't want to press a button on the remote ;-) Like I said, I only use it as a HTPC (Kodi DSplayer also), so I never even really see the desktop. Kodi DSplayer is set to 16-235, as is MadVR, GPU to 0-255, TV to 16-235. All levels are correct, no near-black crush.

LGs simply do better when working limited range.

For people that use their PC and LG OLED for more than just video, the solution is to have your PC HDMI input marked on the TV as "PC" and to have MadVR display mode switching on including 1080p24 etc. When you start a video then MadVR will automatically toggle your HDMI input out of PC into "Home Theatre" and your calibrated video settings.

Pretty simple

[Warner306]

Are you guys sure you don't mean judder?

Judder is when the frame rates don't match. Stutter is due to low motion caused by a perfect response time combined with a low frame count. The LG OLEDs will do judder-free 24p at any refresh rate.

Rtings.com measures this (see "Stutter"): https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8

[mclingo]

I'm not sure we are all taking about the same things here, I dont get any judder or stutter even on long pans, mine are perfect.

A really good example of what im talking about is the beginning of Elysium.



The first part as you pan forward over the buildings, a very long pan I see nothing at all, very smooth no problems at all. Then you see the earth and that pans to the left to reveal he space station. With TRUMOTION on the image is very clean as are the lines.

With TRUMOTION off as the earth pans to the left the edges of the earth wobble and are less defined, for me juddering or stuttering is when the whole scene seems to stutter like a frame skip, not a particular element on screen.

I see this pan wobble as I now call it mostly with high contrast areas like a vertical white pole in a shot or window frame as you pan past it. With TRUMOTION on these wobbles as greately reduced without getting the soap opera effect.

This is obviously very subjective but I could not live without this now.

Another good place to see this is panning past a neon sign as I've previously discussed.

[mclingo]

the problem with even using "stutter" is that it doesnt really fit the meaning, it suggests a repeat of something which isnt what is happening, or is it, are the edge wobbles what RTINGS call stutter?

[Asmodian]

I would not define 'stutter' this way and I don't think this should be thought of as a display defect. Adding a fixed random amount of motion blur does not help anyone. Film will have motion blur already and we do not want our displays always adding more, whether it is with post processing or simply from high response times. :p

A CRT and projected film would have this same kind of 'stutter', they both have very low response times too. CRTs have even less motion blur because they also eliminate the blur due to our eyes tracking motion (projected film does to some degree as well, with the shutter closed between frames). If you think something like an OLED studders with 24 fps content you have simply gotten too used to a LCD smearing frames together, the OLED is not doing anything wrong.

[mclingo]

I dont think anyone is saying OLED is doing something wrong but it can look pretty bad sometimes which is why I use TRUMOTION to get around this.

[huhn]

the stutter on rtings is miss leading just ignore it.
while the screen hold the image for 40 ms your eyes will not see it like this because your retina does not reset which make the image blurry and your eyes doesn't see the instant response time.

[nevcairiel]

the stutter on rtings is miss leading just ignore it.

And yet OLEDs are less "fluid" then classic LCDs, so some sort of measurement of that affect certainly has a place in the world.

[huhn]

but compared to what type of displaying.

a LCD with BFI where 40 ms are black or a normal LCD with about 30 ms static image. this changes the response time or how we see the response time. an old CRT should behave the same or even worse/better or how you want to look at it.

rtings considers low response time to be better while using this same number by giving you a lower points on the stutter test. where a LCD screen get'S early a perfect number of points with 10 ms even through they test it at up 120 hz...

not saying there is nothing but you can punish and glorify the same stat.

[mytbyte]

I thought a stutter monicer would apply to 3:2 pulldown (irregular cadence but still a cadence) or 24 fps played to 25Hz refresh with a 2 frame pause every second and judder would apply to a low framerate like 24 fps with regular cadence, very obvious in areas of higher contrast.
Since I don't own a OLED, I can't test which is it but I doubt it's irregular because of something inherent to OLED pixel array.

Response time is just a small part of the story why there is added motion blur, main being retinal persistence while tracking motion. If concentrated enough, one can check his peripheral vision and see there is less motion blur there...or spread all five fingers and "fan" them as fast as possible in front of the face

Sent from my GM 5 Plus d using Tapatalk

[Betroz]

Whether stutter is the right word or not, motion on my LG C8 OLED is not as smooth/fluid as it was on my old Panasonic VT30 plasma TV. With TruMotion OFF it is a mess, not fluid at all to MY EYES. TruMotion ON does really help, but doesn't fix it. I simply believe LGs algorithms for this is not good enough, or the hardware in the TV is not up to the task.

[huhn]

the stutter on rtings is based on how long our eyes see differences when the image change which was in the past just considered bad and a place where plasma was a bit better and CRT totally destroyed LCDs.
so a higher response time results in "smoother" pixel transition compared to an instant pixel transition in an CRT.

an normal driven OLED is in between an CRT and an LCD. it has the motion blur of an LCDE but closer response times to CRT.
if you want to check for retinal persistence leave your finger where they are and use this https://www.testufo.com

[mytbyte]

if you want to check for retinal persistence leave your finger where they are and use this https://www.testufo.com

Yeah, forgot about that site! So when I wave my hand with spread fingers I do get significant motion blur reduction on this monitor.:D Sure, you could use a fan...

also one can observe this, regardless of motion blur: 50 fps is smooth, 25 fps judders, 13 fps strobes (I have my monitor set to 50Hz for my work, applies to 60Hz almost as equally)

[huhn]

this is not consider judder. judder is uneven frame times or the length of frames judder.

25 fps at 50 hz are not supposed to judder but they are clearly not as smooth as 50 fps because what would be the point of 50 hz then?

[mclingo]

exactly, this is why I think this needs a completely new term, its neither judder, stutter or even jitter, the image itself is getting present in a more accurate way due to the faster response time and thus creating a completely different look to panning shots that LCD TV's.

Pan Wobble works for me :)

[mytbyte]

this is not consider judder. judder is uneven frame times or the length of frames judder.

25 fps at 50 hz are not supposed to judder but they are clearly not as smooth as 50 fps because what would be the point of 50 hz then?

So how would one term visual motion perception of the too low framerate but of equal frame duration?

@mclingo: pan wobble if it's OLED, but what if it's something else?

[mclingo]

So how would one term visual motion perception of the too low framerate but of equal frame duration?

@mclingo: pan wobble if it's OLED, but what if it's something else?

motion issues caused by low frame rate would just come under the umbrella of low frame rate I guess.

Low frame rate + low latency response time on OLED is a slightly different issue, its kind of smears the image which is what creates the wobbling effect.

LFRS

low frame rate smearing - OLED

LFRB

low frame rate blurring - LCD