madVR - General discussion thread

[iSeries]

i'll need to see it on mine before I can comment further but it sounds normal now you've explained it like that, OLED just cant hide really bad source problems, the movie snowpiercer is completely unwatchable without MADVR, there are flashing blocks and all sorts of crap on the screen which does also change when you pause the movie and movie a windowed box about the screen.

Check this disaster of a clip:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgvFafeelEBigP96N4PQZzBs4iPcfg



I've come to terms with my OLED no handling noise well, I try to avoid poor rips and use MADVR to clean up the image the best I can where I can. These movies look much worse on my 2017 LCD though, not only are they a grey mess but when the lights are out I can still see the macroblocking, its just less pronounced as LCD dynamic range in dark scenes is pants.

I'm just going by what I saw from the two C7s I had, neither of them did this, neither did my old LG plasma, and none of my LCDs or any other TV I've seen has done this either.

It isn't limited to bad sources, it shows in high quality sources too. Vincent Teoh also noticed it when he compared the C8 to the Sony OLED, the Sony did not show this but the LG did. And the fact that if I send the same clip as bt.2020 instead of bt.709 fixes the flashing issue strongly suggests a processing issue

[iSeries]

I actually just tried to report it to LG but jeez their agents haven't got a clue, and would not pass any message on to their technical teams.

I think I'm going to open a service call up and get a technician round to demonstrate the problem, because for a $3,000 TV to be having this kind of issue is not good enough.

[mclingo]

yeah thats your best bet but i'll still have a butchers tonight.

[j82k]

mclingo, I've had a 2016 C6 before. I know what the poor near black gradation looks like. The issue with 2018 LG Oleds is completely different. This is pointless discussing if you don't own a 2018 LG Oled.
Your clip looks fine on my C8. It's scenes where there are specific near-black color changes causing heavy pixel overshoot/flashing on 2018 LG Oleds.
If I hadn't experienced this myself I also wouldn't believe it.

[iSeries]

I'd still be interested to know if mclingo sees anything like what we see on his 2015 oled

What's so funny is the avsforum folk simply brush this off with "it's the content" or "all TVs do this", and then when you present more evidence and ask them to test for themselves, they get all defensive and start acting like you just bullied their child. It's so odd that they cannot accept that the TV has this issue, or even any issue.

I don't expect any traction with LG on this, so I am hoping that madshi could implement the 5bit dithering at near black and ramping up to output bit depth idea, which @j82k was a stellar idea.

this is interesting: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2784185-2017-lg-c7-b7-owners-thread-no-price-talk-87.html#post53332866

[mclingo]

Hi, don’t read anything negative into this, these are just my observations, this is just a conversation remember.

Firstly both those clips play on my system like they are playing in the wrong colour space, I have to drop a few brightness stops to get the surrounding black bars to turn black so something is not right here off the bat, have you lightened these to bring out the noise?
When I turn might brightness down things look loads better, the black bars turn back and all the noise disapears into the shadow, they look ok to me, not great as they have all the usual noise issues with dark scenes but nowhere neat as bad as snowpiercer.
The noise and blocking I see here is the same stuff i've always seen with poorly mastered material where they dark scenes havent been properly mastered, sometimes for effect but sometimes just getting it wrong.
To further back this up, have you seen Solo?, this is a wash with near blacks, beiges and brown gradients with very few truly black scenes, if OLEDs had issues with near black this would like a total mess but it looks great on mine, no chunk noise, no banding, all looks fine to me in and out of MADVR.

Conclusions.
Because these clips are a) in the wrong colour space and b) poorly mastered and compressed to buggery I can see no way at all of working out whether you have a problem with your TV or not.
I’ve seen tons of stuff like this and its always been the source for me. Man in the hight castle season 1 looked very similar, it look horrific, when the bluray came out it was loads better but there were still some problems.
Nearly all period dramas are made like this, they give it a lightened effect to age it, it just ends up looking terrible when its highly compressed.
You may well have an issue but I’m leaning toward you being where I was a few months into my first OLED, I literally spent months going through content and settings and comparing the pic with my LCD, after all that I became absolutely convinced that 99% of the issues I was seeing were a direct result of the poor source and the 1% was the panels inability to hide source issues due to the increased dynamic range in dark scenes compared to LCD.

[j82k]

Just forget about, no disrespect but like I said this is pointless unless you have a 2018 Oled. Everything you're describing I can relate to with the C6 I had before, it's not that...
Also the clips are fine, one of them is straight from blu-ray, the bars are black (measured with a color picker).

[mclingo]

have you played them yourself since you exported them?, they are definitely way too bright, the black bars are light grey on mine. I'll download the episode myself and take look, and show you a comparison.

[j82k]

Yes I have the cut clips in front of me on my monitor, bars are RGB 0 0 0.

[mclingo]

I just downloaded a 2gig rip which wont be anywhere near bluray quality and its night and day better quality that those clips, very few noise issues, everything looks great on my TV. It also has jet black bars and is in 16:10 aspect ratio, yours has grey bars, is in the wrong aspect ratio and looks terrible, what gives?

If these clips have got black bars on your TV, you are either watching with some bias lighting so you cant see them, have the lights on at home and cant see them or you have a crush at low IRE, they are clearly grey.

Incidentally, When was hand maids tale S2 released on Bluray?

:)

[j82k]

What? You're now saying handmaids tale has a 16:10 aspect ratio?
Sorry I'm out, this discussion is a waste of time. Something is seriously wrong with your setup....

[mclingo]

I was wrong about the aspect ratio, I had changed it in MPC-BE to watch an old video and forgot to change it back, I rarely use MPC-BE, I normally use KOD DS.

That doesnt change the fact that the clip is nowhere near bluray quality and has loads more noise problems than my crappy 2 gig clip, and it still has has grey bars. There is no way to tell if your TV has issue if you are using this quality of material to judge it.

You must have compressed this clip when you exported it which has also altered the brightness or dynamic range somehow.

[Asmodian]

I don't see grey bars in the handmaid example but I do see really a lot of blocking in near black detail. It seems like a difficult clip to use to show other shadow artifacts.

[iSeries]

^^ if you have a C8, it's the perfect clip to show the issue. The issue isn't that the TV is introducing new artifacts, the issue is it is making existing artifacts flash very brightly. The more artifacts, the worse the flashing is. First watch jk82's video of the issue, and then while watching that handsmaids tale scene (in a dark room), press pause.

Mclingo, the fact you've said it's the source means you aren't seeing what we are seeing. Thanks for looking though.

Anyone with a 2018 LG oled know if PC mode is for both SDR and HDR is good? I remember seeing that earlier firmwares it had some issues but wasn't sure if they had all been worked out.

[mclingo]

I don't see grey bars in the handmaid example but I do see really a lot of blocking in near black detail. It seems like a difficult clip to use to show other shadow artifacts.

Hi, are you viewing in pitch black with no bias lighting and no crush, hard to understand if not as these bars are clearly grey to me and i'm flashing 18 on the black pattern so I already have a slight crush set on mine.

Also, all other several hundred of my ripped movies have black bars, this one hasnt so you'll forgive me if I think something is awry here.

[SamuriHL]

I've not had a chance to play with this on my C8 yet but I'll try to take a look tonight if I get some time. I think I know exactly the issue you're talking about and it irritates the living hell out of me. I honestly think it's a bug they introduced in one of the recent firmware updates because I don't recall seeing this happen when I first got it earlier this summer.

I use PC mode, btw, and I've not seen any issues that I know of but that's not to say there aren't any.

[iSeries]

Thanks, here's hoping it is a bug!

The only thing I can see about PC mode is Real Cinema is greyed out. I'll have to test if that makes things 'less smooth'.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, the processing is completely turned off in PC mode which is one of the things I personally like about it. I know real cinema is a useful feature but I've not had too many more issues with panning and the like than with it enabled. I suppose that greatly depends on content.

[SamuriHL]

j82k made a video of the flashing near black issue on 2018 LG OLEDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl_t3UQ3gAk

Yes, I see the stupid issue on my C8, too. That's a real PITA. I seriously hope this can be fixed.

[iSeries]

Yes, I see the stupid issue on my C8, too. That's a real PITA. I seriously hope this can be fixed.

Jk82 brought it up in the owners thread over at avsforum a few months ago. Most owners there dismissed it. The issue was recently resurrected in that thread, with jk82, myself and a couple of others weighing in with their experiences. Again everyone else dismissed it, blaming the content etc. You basically can't discuss technical issues there, you get hounded out by over-defensive owners, they act like you're bullying their child if you bring up any kind of flaw or issue with these sets. I really think it's just shoddy processing because it doesn't seem to be an issue on the Sonys etc.

[SamuriHL]

Jk82 brought it up in the owners thread over at avsforum a few months ago. Most owners there dismissed it. The issue was recently resurrected in that thread, with jk82, myself and a couple of others weighing in with their experiences. Again everyone else dismissed it, blaming the content etc. You basically can't discuss technical issues there, you get hounded out by over-defensive owners, they act like you're bullying their child if you bring up any kind of flaw or issue with these sets. I really think it's just shoddy processing because it doesn't seem to be an issue on the Sonys etc.

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

[iSeries]

I 100% agree, for a TV this expensive, it isn't acceptable, and we need to be on every forum and tweeting this out to major review sites to get this on LGs radar. Otherwise, i'm not sure they'll ever even know about it let alone fix it.

Play that handsmaids clip again, but send it as bt.2020 instead of bt.709. On mine it plays correctly like that. The other 'fix' is to have madVR dither to 5bits.

[Asmodian]

Hi, are you viewing in pitch black with no bias lighting and no crush, hard to understand if not as these bars are clearly grey to me and i'm flashing 18 on the black pattern so I already have a slight crush set on mine.

Also, all other several hundred of my ripped movies have black bars, this one hasnt so you'll forgive me if I think something is awry here.

Not sure what the difference is for you, but yes, I was in a fully black room without any other lights at all. I also cannot see 17 but I do see 18 flashing.

[iSeries]

^^ try limited>full>black level low, i keep saying it but no one believes me lol. The flashing bar pattern is impossible to set black level on oleds too, the bright text fools your eyes up. The wizziwig square pattern is better.

[Asmodian]

I use my TV as my main display, limited range is not an option. :p

[iSeries]

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

An owner just posted in the avsforum owners thread about his experiences with LG and getting dud panels. One of the panels had this macroblocking issue and says he had it swapped and the new panel didn't have the issue:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-293.html#post57183218

[nevcairiel]

This doesn't sound like a panel issue at all (also, that guy should format his post some). Panels don't usually show temporary "macro blocking" like that, thats a processing artifact if anything, not display. Sounds like unrelated issues to me.

[iSeries]

Yeah the big indicator of a processing issue is that sending eg that handsmaids tale clip as bt.2020 instead of bt.709, the flashing macroblocking does not occur.

It just seems ridiculous to have to dither content to 5bit for this supposedly 10bit display in order to (mostly) avoid this issue.

Part of me does think though, that if this was a processing issue, how come it hasn't become a known issue, like the recent hdr dimming issue...These TVs have been out for months now, and the issue is very obvious (and very ugly) when it happens, you'd think forums would be overflowing with complaints.

[JNW]

It’s probably only us AV enthusiasts than even see it or even care enough about to bother to post on forums etc. Average joe probably doesn’t see it, doesn’t bother them enough or if they do see it just think its source related.

I don’t own one but reading about it kind of reminds me of the year of the Panasonic Plasma “purple snakes” defect. What a fiasco. There was firmware updates and board replacements galore. And it was difficult to get Panasonic to admit to the problem and hard to get a refund. All of that year’s model had it so a replacement would get you as far if you were lucky enough that the problem wasn’t as bad because Panasonic would say it’s “within spec”. Kind of sad because these TV’s cost a lot of money.

[iSeries]

You'd think on a website like AVSforum, they'd see this. Some owners there obsess over vertical banding and tint and what not, but no mention is made of this. Every now and again a new owner will post there about it, and will be quickly shut down by the resident 'experts' with the usual "it's the content, you're imagining things" nonsense.

[iSeries]

John Archer replied to my tweet about this issue, I've sent him the link to jk82's video and given him some more details. Anyone affected by this please also tweet him.

Also posted here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/a1h8qo/flashing_nearblack_artifacts_and_macroblocks_in/

[iSeries]

Also, Vincent Teoh replied to my tweet asking for specific examples where this occurs. I urge anyone with a 2018 LG oled affected by this issue to tweet John Archer and Vincent Teoh directly. Give them examples of scenes you've seen it in too.

More good news, rtings, replied and said they've received a bunch of reports on the macroblocking and are going to investigate.

[iSeries]

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

Hey, which UHDs have you noticed this in?

[SamuriHL]

Hey, which UHDs have you noticed this in?

Dark Knight Rises was one of them but I'm not 100% sure it's exactly the same issue. The reason I say that is I send UHDs at bt.2020. Which as you've said doesn't exhibit the problem. The other problem is I was watching the movie when it happened so I don't have the exact frame where I saw it. I want to do more testing but my time this week has been focused on job hunting. I should have some time this weekend to do more.

[chros]

I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June.
It can be a firmware issue as well, if you can find an older one and dare to flash it (if the current firmware allows it) then you can test it.

[iSeries]

Dark Knight Rises was one of them but I'm not 100% sure it's exactly the same issue. The reason I say that is I send UHDs at bt.2020. Which as you've said doesn't exhibit the problem. The other problem is I was watching the movie when it happened so I don't have the exact frame where I saw it. I want to do more testing but my time this week has been focused on job hunting. I should have some time this weekend to do more.

The Revenent UHD is bad on mine, after 1hr16m, when they are sitting around the fire. Very bad at 1hr17m28s, weird flashing macroblocks above the flames, top right of the screen. Pause and all the macroblocks disappear.

[SamuriHL]

It can be a firmware issue as well, if you can find an older one and dare to flash it (if the current firmware allows it) then you can test it.

I flash crazy stuff all the time, but, not taking a chance with a TV even if it was possible. I agree that it's possible to be firmware but I'm not downgrading.

The Revenent UHD is bad on mine, after 1hr16m, when they are sitting around the fire. Very bad at 1hr17m28s, weird flashing macroblocks above the flames, top right of the screen. Pause and all the macroblocks disappear.

Was that with bt.2020 though? Or were you sending it as rec.709? Natively UHD is bt.2020 right?

[mclingo]

ok, so I need to apologize, there was indeed something wrong with my setup, MPC-BE was showing a messed up colour space in d3d full sceen, all bars are now black on your clips.

sorry :)

nothing new to report though, my TV clearly doesnt have the same issue, have you tried manually rolling back the firmware with a USB drive, this used to be possible, i havent tried it for years though with a TV.

[iSeries]

Was that with bt.2020 though? Or were you sending it as rec.709? Natively UHD is bt.2020 right?

Was sent as bt.2020 / hdr passthru/ rgb 8bit. Tv was going crazy during that scene.

Lots of owners responding in avforums, avsforum, and reddit, this looks to be a very widespread issue. This guy even says the B8 is affected, i wasnt sure if it would be with the different processor. https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/a1h8qo/flashing_nearblack_artifacts_and_macroblocks_in/eatah8u/

[huhn]

i just have to ask why the so called "geeks" on AVSfroum still buy the LG OLED after they messed the processing seriously up over and over again over the last years couple years and don't get the sony, panasonic or what ever other brand that uses the same OLED screen?

i can see how an uninformed user will fall for this but these self decorated videophiles?

is the price difference so big in other country? it's just a couple hundred bugs where i live.

[giulianoprs]

From Italia LG 65 b8 1.900 euro, Panasonic 65 fz800 2.600 euro, Sony 65 af8 2.850 euro.

[iSeries]

i just have to ask why the so called "geeks" on AVSfroum still buy the LG OLED after they messed the processing seriously up over and over again over the last years couple years and don't get the sony, panasonic or what ever other brand that uses the same OLED screen?

i can see how an uninformed user will fall for this but these self decorated videophiles?

is the price difference so big in other country? it's just a couple hundred bugs where i live.

Comes down to price. Here in canada the panasonic is $500 more, and the sony $1000 more. If they were all the same price, i doubt many people would buy the lg.

[kostik]

When watching 1080p movies , is it a good idea to switch to 1080p120 (RGB 12bit) on a 4K display (LG OLED C8)?

[iSeries]

You'd be swapping the high quality scaling of madVR, for the low quality scaling of the C8.

I find my C8 has more colour banding at RGB 12bit, so I use RGB 8bit for everything.

[Asmodian]

I find my C8 has more colour banding at RGB 12bit, so I use RGB 8bit for everything.

This matches my experiance with the C7 as well.

[iSeries]

Sadly, Vincent Teoh says he doesn't see any issue with near-black macroblocking on the 2018 LG oleds. Also sadly, he looked at the wrong material - namely, The Revenant UHD, when this issue rarely if ever happens with HDR content. I've asked him to check with the right kind of material (lower quality SDR), but I don't expect any positive outcome for this

[nevcairiel]

Sadly, Vincent Teoh says he doesn't see any issue with near-black macroblocking on the 2018 LG oleds. Also sadly, he looked at the wrong material - namely, The Revenant UHD, when this issue rarely if ever happens with HDR content. I've asked him to check with the right kind of material (lower quality SDR), but I don't expect any positive outcome for this - you don't bite the hand that feeds after all.

If you claim to be a reviewer and are not actually objective, your name doesn't mean anything anymore. So might as well ignore people like that in the future. :)

Calling out problems is what makes great reviewers. Pointing out positives to butter up the companies, everyone can do.

[iSeries]

If you claim to be a reviewer and are not actually objective, your name doesn't mean anything anymore. So might as well ignore people like that in the future. :)

Calling out problems is what makes great reviewers. Pointing out positives to butter up the companies, everyone can do.

He replied to me and flat-out said "I don't have the other content and I'm not buying it". So there it is lol.

[nevcairiel]

He replied to me and flat-out said "I don't have the other content and I'm not buying it". So there it is lol.

A 20s clip someone else made surely falls under fair-use.

[iSeries]

A 20s clip someone else made surely falls under fair-use.

I think I will do that and upload to google drive, thanks.