Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph [Archive] - Page 44

r0lZ

15th May 2014, 13:24

Yes, Nico is right. The original SUP file is a standard 2D subtitle stream (and is used also when you watch the BD in 2D).

Surprisingly, on many BDs, the subtitle stream is duplicated in the dependent view M2TS. That means that the same subtitle stream is present twice in the SSIF (and BTW, eac3to fails to demux them because it gets confused by the two streams with the same ID). When I saw that BDs, I was almost sure that the second subtitle stream was somewhat different from the first, and was designed to be used for the dependent view. But I was wrong. That stream is exactly identical to the other one, and therefore it is not sufficient to use it to get the 3D effect. Finally, I have learned that the 3D info is stored in SEI messages in the MVC stream. Since that stream must be demuxed anyway by BD3D2MK3D, it was not very difficult to write a little exe that extracts the messages from the MVC stream and build the 3D-planes as independent files. (It's MVCPlanes.exe written by Nico.) The info contained in these planes is sufficient to know what parallax value to use for each individual subtitle and to build the 3D subs. As far as I know, there is no other way to get the 3D subs right (except of course by playing the original 3D BD with a 3D BD player).

BTW, MVCPlanes.exe gives also some interesting info about the 3D "intensity" of the movie. It shows you the minimum and maximum parallax values, as well as the average value for the movie. That may be useful to know approximately if the movie has globally a deep or small depth. Of course, you must take in mind that the depths given by the 3D-planes are the depths to be used for the subtitles, and they do not necessarily reflect the real depth of the movie. But if you know for example that the maximum parallax value is 10 for a movie, and 50 for another one, you can bet that the second one has more impressive 3D effects.

Note also that when the subtitles are converted to 3D, a similar information is printed to the log by BD3D2MK3D, but this time, only the values needed for the subtitles of the converted stream are taken into account. They may be useful if you want to fine-tune the additional depth value and redo the conversion with the two tools in the Tools menu.

As far as I know, BD3D2MK3D is the first program that can convert the BD subtitles to 3D with the real depth. However, I'm still not absolutely sure that it does it correctly. I don't know exactly how to interpret the parallax values and use them to deduce the displacement of the left subtitle along the X axis. If you can see for sure that some subtitles are obviously not at the same depth in the original BD and in the MKV generated by BD3D2MK3D, please let me know. Thanks in advance!

tyee

17th May 2014, 01:08

The latest download has file date stamps of 2012. Is this correct?

Oh, I see the link is for the other app - BD3D2AVS.7z. Needs correcting??

r0lZ

17th May 2014, 06:20

Oops, yes. Sorry!
Here is the correct link: BD3D2MK3D.7z (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/BD3D2AVS/BD3D2MK3D.7z)
I've corrected the links in my previous post too. Thanks!

Wolfy59

18th May 2014, 19:59

Hi all, How can i use the last 3d tsmuxer to have the correct 3D subtitle Depth with the Nico's tool ?
r0lZ do you think it s possible to add an option to your BD3D2MK3D to have a bd 25 iso using frim encoder ?
Thanks for the work you do here.

r0lZ

19th May 2014, 09:01

I'm not sure I understand your questions.

BD3D2MK3D uses tsMuxeR 3D to extract the MVC stream, yes. But normally, any demuxer should do the job correctly (unless it removes the SEI messages on the fly). MVCPlanes.exe (by Nico) is used only to retrieve the 3D-planes SEI messages from the MVC stream and build a list of parallax values for all frames of the movie (the *.3dp files). The command line is easy, but if you want a GUI for that part, you can use Tools -> Extract 3D Planes from MVC.
The conversion of the subtitles to 3D is currently made by BD3D2MK3D only, and not yet by a CLI exe. So, currently, you need to use Tools -> Convert Subtitles to 3D (with 3D-Planes).

For the ISO, the answer is no. BD3D2MK3D, as its name implies, converts a BD3D to a 3D MKV file (in SBS or T&B format). It is not at all designed to copy (or shrink) an original 3DBD to a recordable BD25 or BD50. (However, it has an option to create a BD compliant h264 file, and you can theoretically use a BD authoring program to build a standard BD containing a 3D SBS or T&B video.)

Wolfy59

19th May 2014, 21:37

Nico8583

19th May 2014, 23:00

Firstly you can extract depth only from MVC stream, not from SUP file.
Secondly you cannot use SUP 3D created by r0lZ soft (or mine if I can release it) with AVC/MVC ISO because depth is used to calculate SBS or TAB subtitles positions (and AVC/MVC is not SBS or TAB).
So I'm sorry but I think my tool cannot help you...

r0lZ

20th May 2014, 07:42

OK, if I understand correctly, you want to rebuild an ISO with the original AVC and MVC streams, plus a new SUP file you have generated yourself, and have that subtitles use the correct 3D depth, like the original subtitle streams of the BD. Correct?

If, and only if, the original MVC stream has already some valid 3D-planes, then you can use one of them when you add your new subtitle stream and you remux the BD. tsMuxeR 3D has an option to change the 3D plane of any subtitle stream. Just select one existing 3D-plane for your new subtitle stream. It can be already used by another subtitle stream, that doesn't matter. (Selecting the best 3D-plane can be tricky, and if the depth of your subtitles is not correct, you can try another 3D-plane. However, most of them should give approximately the same result.)

Our tools (Nico's MVCStreams or my BD3D2MK3D) are not necessary to do that. You need only tsMuxeR 3D. But MVCPlanes can be somewhat useful to verify what streams are already present in the MVC stream, and to examine their statistics. It's not mandatory, but that can help to identify the "best" 3D-plane to use.

Note also that I've read that it is sometimes difficult to assign an existing 3D plane to a new subtitle stream with tsMuxeR, because the option is not enabled or something like that. I'm not sure it's the truth, but if it's the case, please post your questions on that subject in the tsMuxeR 3D thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168539). Our thread here is devoted to the conversion of 3D BDs to SBS or T&B, and not to the remux of an original 3D BD. Thanks.

Wolfy59

20th May 2014, 17:30

Thanks for answers i will try to find another way :-)

uluhara

25th May 2014, 09:30

Hello there,

and greetings from Germany.

I found BD3D2MK3D while searching for a way to test the 3D capabilities of my SamsungTV.

My first test subject was TinTin, and everything worked like a charme! Great Software.

My second test was to be Avatar3D - which has forced subs - and now something happened I did'nt expect ... when I play the finished file my Samsung TV shows the text two times, once left and once right, the left one seems to be in the back, the right one in front...

Any idea what I am doing wrong?

r0lZ

25th May 2014, 10:57

Welcome to the Doom9 forums, and thanks for your appreciation. :-)

There are two kinds of subtitles: 2D and 3D. The subtitles to use depend of the way you watch your movie, and of your hardware.

The 2D subtitles are "normal" subtitles. They have to be displayed by the TV and rendered in 3D by the 3D engine of the TV. That means that the TV must duplicate the subtitle on the two views, possibly with a little displacement along the X axis so that it appears with a certain "depth", in front of the surface of the screen. The main drawback of the 2D subtitles is that the TV has no way to know at what depth each subtitle must be displayed. With my Samsung TV, for example, the subtitles are placed "on the surface of the screen", and there is no way to display them at a different depth. Therefore, almost all subtitles appear "inside" the objects that are in front of the screen, and that produces a very unpleasant effect, and a torture for the brain.

In the other hand, 3D subtitles are converted to 3D by BD3D2MK3D itself. That has a very important advantage: The "real" depth can be extracted from the original blu-ray disc and used to compute the right depth for each individual subtitle. The final subtitle stream contains therefore a single subtitle stream for the two views, but with each subtitle repeated twice; one for each view. For instance, on a Side by Side conversion, the two subtitles will be placed on the right and the left of the screen, exactly at the position where they should be on the single SBS combined view. But that means that the TV must display the subtitles over the SBS images before enlarging each image and sending them to the right eye. Some TVs show the subtitle after having displayed the images, and therefore they display the "double" subtitle on a "single" image. Of course, that doesn't work. 3D subtitles is what you should use anyway if you send the SBS or T&B image to the TV with an external rendering engine, such as a multimedia hard disc or a PC that doesn't "know" that the movie is in 3D.

There is also a third solution, and imo it's the best one. With BD3D2MK3D, you can "burn" (or "hardcode") the subtitles over the video when the SBS or T&B movie is computed. That way, you will have the guarantee that the subtitles are correctly placed, and that the TV will not have to "guess" at what depth the subtitle must be displayed. The subtitles will be placed at the correct depth, and the TV will not "know" that there are subtitles with the movie. It's the solution I have used personally for the forced subs of Avatar, and it works pretty well. Of course, there is also a drawback. Since the subtitles are hardcoded, there is no way to turn them off, or to select another subtitle language. And muxing other subtitle streams doesn't make much sense, since they will be displayed by the TV on top of the hardcoded subs. That solution works therefore best if you are interested in only one language.

According to your description of your problem, you have used the 3D option, but the TV treats the 3D subtitles as a 2D stream, and displays them incorrectly. So, unless there is an option to display the 3D subs in 3D in your TV, you should use the 2D version of the subtitles. (In tab 2, under "Subtitles types", select either "2D only" or "2D then 3D". I recommend the latter one, because you will have the two possibilities.) I encourage you to try also the hardcoded subtitles. Despite the drawbacks, it's the best way to display the subtitles correctly, regardless of the hardware used.

Final note: If you have computed your version of Avatar with the subtitle types set to "3D only" and you want to try the version "2D only", and you still have the BD3D2MK3D project, you don't need to restart everything over. Just edit the _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt file to change the file name and title of the subtitle stream. Use the 2D version of the idx file instead of the 3D version. Then, double-click the _MUX_3D.cmd file to regenerate the MKV file, with the 2D subtitles. That file will probably work fine on your TV but the subtitles will not be placed at the correct depth. (Of course, to hardcode the subtitles on the video, you have to regenerate the entire project, and use the correct option in the last tab.)

mini-moose

29th May 2014, 09:04

I had some time today to play around with the recent version.

I have some questions:

1) Tried to load the generated AVS in virtualdub and all it's showing is a black screen. Though encoded output is fine.

2) Should I prefer to crop the black bars, how would I do that? I know r0lz doesn't recommend it but I prefer it like that. In the old versions the avs contained crop/resize switches, I don't see any on current ones.

3) There are lots of .3dp files left on working directory after preparation is done. Are those needed?

4) After project was created I wanted to make a 3d Sup using 3d-planes cause I find sup (when muxed in) works a lot better than vobsubs with some players. I launched the tool and chose bd sup, input file (original extracted sup) and output file, but I'm not sure what to choose for 3-D plane file as there are about lots of .3dp files (3D-Plane-00.3dp - 3D-Plane-31.3dp in this case). Not exactly sure to which extracted sup file they relate as I extracted 2 of them. Maybe I'm supposed to use the temp_2D.xml and not the original sup itself? I guess there is a simple way to do it, but I'm finding it confusing to figure out the right way doing it manually (not as part of the project generation).

Might be a good idea to generate both .sub and .sup, or have an option to choose when setting up to generate the project. Choosing .sup though would require an adjustment in the mux cmd as they won't play externally as far as I know.

thanks.

edit: I tried applying standard crop and it seems to work fine, though I haven't tested it on tv yet.

Privateer5000

31st May 2014, 09:55

And again hi from Germany.
I found this little nice prog when i started encoding of 3D Movies after buying my first 3D TV 3 months ago. Awesome work and especially now the feature with the correct 3D depth of the subtitles. AWESOME!!!!

@mini-moose

When you open a Movie with BD3D2MK3D go to the 2nd Tab "Streams" and take a look at the Subtitles. After each Subtitle you can see which 3DPlane is used. i.e. "4608 Subtitle: Eng PGS (3D-plane:0)".
I personally also prefer the BD SUP format for my Subtitles. I let BD3D2MK3D create the project without starting the encoding process. Then i use the created XML File, because the XML File already has the correct depth information in it und convert it by Hand into BD SUP format. After that just edit the _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt and have fun.

@r0lZ:
is it possible to implement an option in the 2nd Tab to choose the output format for the subtitles? Would make things a bit more comfortable, just an idea.
Oh, nearly forgot. Some Movie's like the german BD of "The three Musketeers" had problems concerning subtitles. After opening the BD the program says "Subtitle: Deu PGS (3D-plane:zerro)" and the conversion aborts with an error message saying that the program expects an integer value. I had to convert the Subtitles by hand, luckily there was only 1 3D-Plane after using "Extract 3D-planes from MVC" with a fixed depth. I had the same problem with 1 or 2 other movies, but sadly i forgot which one but all had a maximum of 2 3D-planes and only 1 had no fixed depth. By Analysing the 3D-planes with your tool i found out which 3D-plane was used by a subtitle, 1 was the complete subtitle and the other was the forced.
Is this "3d-plane:zerro" thing a problem of the Ripper or a problem of the movie, what do you think. Is there another way to see which 3d-plane a subtitles uses?

Sebastian

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 10:18

@mini-moose

1) Not sure why. Perhaps because you don't have the same settings when using VDub than with the _ENCODE.CMD script. It changes the current system PATH variable to include the toolset:
set path=D:\Tools\BD3D2MK3D\toolset;%path%
The decoder you have used may require the path correctly set to find libmfxsw32.dll.

2) There was a rezise to 720p switch in the old versions, that's right, but I have never implemented any crop option.
If you really want so, you can add manually a crop command in _ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs, but you will also have to modify _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt to specify the new aspect ratio.

Crop command syntax:
Crop(int left, int top, int -right, int -bottom, bool "align")
Example:
Crop(0, 140, -0, -140)
To be inserted after the DGMVCSource (or FRIMSource) command.

Mkvmerge syntax for the aspect ratio (in _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt):
--aspect-ratio
0:2.4
(The two examples above are approximately what you need for a movie shot in Cinemascope.)

[edit] I see that you have already tried the crop. You may have to remux with the correct aspect ratio now.

3) The 3d-planes files are needed to convert the subtitles to 3D with the correct depth values. You can safely delete them before encoding the movie, but they may still be useful if you need to rebuild the 3D subtitles with the "Convert Subtitle to 3D (with 3D-plane)" function in the Tools menu, for example to use another Additional Depth value, to convert your subtitles with another 3D-plane, or to convert additional subtitles downloaded from the internet to 3D). Anyway, that files do not take much disc space, and like other files that are no longer necessary when the project has been generated, I prefer to leave them in the working directory. They may be useful to diagnose a problem or bug and experienced users may need to examine or modify them to suit their needs.

4) The fact that there are several 3d-planes for the same 3D movie is surprising, since the depth to use for any subtitle in any language can theoretically be identical. But the fact is that several 3d-planes are planned by the BD3D standard. That may be because a specific subtitle in, say, English, may be longer once translated in another language, such as French. That means that the subtitle bitmap may be larger than the original one, or that the subtitle has to be shown longer on screen. In both cases, it may be partially over other "objects" of the current scene, and therefore they may require other depth values. Anyway, there are several planes, and we must select the best one.

Normally, when a subtitle is present in the original BD, it has an associated 3D-plane. You can see the planes numbers with the subtitle descriptions in tabs 1 and 2, after having opened the BD3D. Of course, if you want to add a subtitle downloaded from the internet, you will have to select an existing 3d-plane, and hope that it will be suitable for your stream. Have a look at the 3D-Planes.log file. You will see some interesting stats on each 3d-plane that may help you. You may also have to experiment. (And it's also for that reason that the 3d-planes are not deleted.)

Note that the first time you convert a subtitle to 3D, it creates the temp 2D XML/PNG files, but the XML file is then modified to include the new (and non-standard) tags "Depth". If you want to regenerate the 3D file with the depth values extracted from the 3D-plane during the first try, you can simply edit the XML file to change the depth of a few subtitles that may not be correct. To use the depth values from the Depth tags of the XML file instead of the depth values from the 3D plane, specify the XML file as input and DO NOT specify any 3D-plane file. (BTW, the possibility to fix depth errors by editing the 2D XML explains also why that XML and PNG files are not deleted when the final 3D sup or idx/sub file has been generated.)

It is easy to generate yourself the 3D SUP if you really need it. Currently, BD3D2MK3D supports only the SUB/IDX format, because it's the format that is supported by most players. AFAIK, the SUP streams (internal or external) can only be displayed by a few players.

Note that I have tried to use the SupTitle avisynth plugin and a 3D SUP file when the user wants to hardcode the subtitle on the video, but it has crashed with almost all tests I did, so currently, the IDX/SUB format is also used for the hardcoded subtitles. It's a pity, because the SUP format has more colors and transparency values and therefore a much better antialiasing, and of course the compatibility is not a problem when it is hardcoded on the video. If someone knows a version of SupTitle.dll or another avisynth plugin that works well with HD SUP files, I'm interested.

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 10:37

@Privateer5000

You have replied to mini-moose when I was writing my own reply. Thanks for him.

As I can see, mini-moose is not alone to want the SUP files in the MKV. It should be easy to add an option to select it rather than the SubRip format, but be warned: your subtitles will not be displayed by most players! Anyway, I will probably add that option in the next version.

3D-plane:zerro - I have never understood what that message means exactly. Apparently, "zero" means "not assigned", but I'm not sure. Unfortunately, Roman, the author of tsMuxeR 3D has stopped to work and doesn't reply any more at his threads and PMs, so I can't have confirmation. I'm not sure that I'm right, because there are also BDs or subtitles without any 3D-plane messages at all. Anyway, although I have already seen that "3D-plane:zerro" message, I have never tried to encode a movie with that strange message, and therefore I have never encountered the bug. Thanks for reporting it. I will fix it as soon as possible...

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 10:50

Hum, I have verified my code, and it seems that the "3d-plane: zerro" case has been correctly taken into account, or at least I can't find any bug. However, my program assumes that there is a space after "3d-plane:" and before "zerro". But in your message, you have written "3d-plane:zerro" without any space. Are you sure it's the syntax displayed in tab 1? If my code does its job correctly, that information should be removed in tab 2. (Of course, if the plane number is valid, the 3d-plane information is not removed in tab 2.)

Also, my code is case sensitive, and therefore it may not detect things like "3d-plane: Zerro" or "3D-Plane: zerro". Can you copy here the exact string you see in tab 1? (Sorry, I don't remember in what BD I have seen that case, and the ISOs I have currently on my HDD have correct plane numbers.)

mini-moose

31st May 2014, 11:27

thanks for your detailed resonse r0lz. I'm happy to see my instincts were mostly right.

1) Perhaps because you don't have the same settings when using VDub than with the _ENCODE.CMD script. It changes the The decoder you have used may require the path correctly set to find libmfxsw32.dll.

vdub opens the avs just displays a black screen. I tried copying over all the dlls from the tool set and that didn't help. Tried loading libmfxsw32.dll in avs but judging from the avs erro it's isn't an avisynth plugin (seems to be intel sdk). Maybe I need a
copy in sys?
It's not very important. I was trialing crop and it was easier to preview in vdub than encode a clip (which is what I ended up doing).

Crop command syntax:
Crop(int left, int top, int -right, int -bottom, bool "align")
Example:
Crop(0, 140, -0, -140)
To be inserted after the DGMVCSource (or FRIMSource) command.

Mkvmerge syntax for the aspect ratio (in _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt):
--aspect-ratio
0:2.4
[edit] I see that you have already tried the crop. You may have to remux with the correct aspect ratio now.

That's what I ended up doing. used crop after AssumeFPS. I remember asking you about crop back when coreavc was in use and the command was much more complex so wasn't sure it's that simple here :)
I'm not entirely sure the AR flag in mkvmerge is even necessary. I tried it with and without and mediainfo/avinaptic both report the same AR. It doesn't hurt, but not sure it's really needed.

3) The 3d-planes files are needed to convert the subtitles to 3D with the correct depth values.
thanks for explaining.

4)Normally, when a subtitle is present in the original BD, it has an associated 3D-plane. You can see the planes numbers with the subtitle descriptions in tabs 1 and 2, after having opened the BD.

Note that the first time you convert a subtitle to 3D, it creates the temp 2D XML/PNG files, but the XML file is then modified to include the new (and non-standard) tags "Depth".

Reason I was asking was that I wanted to generate a sup file instead of vobsub and one of the required fields (which I later found out was somewhat optional) was what 3dp file to use and with 32 different ones I wasn't sure what to do.
At the end I used the temp_2D.xml located in 00001.track_4608.En.3D_2D and left the 3dp box empty. If I understand correctly from the replies, that was the right way to do it.

mini-moose

31st May 2014, 11:29

@mini-moose

When you open a Movie with BD3D2MK3D go to the 2nd Tab "Streams" and take a look at the Subtitles. After each Subtitle you can see which 3DPlane is used. i.e. "4608 Subtitle: Eng PGS (3D-plane:0)".
I personally also prefer the BD SUP format for my Subtitles. I let BD3D2MK3D create the project without starting the encoding process. Then i use the created XML File, because the XML File already has the correct depth information in it und convert it by Hand into BD SUP format. After that just edit the _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt and have fun.

thanks. I believe that's what I ended up doing :)

mini-moose

31st May 2014, 11:41

As I can see, mini-moose is not alone to want the SUP files in the MKV. It should be easy to add an option to select it rather than the SubRip format, but be warned: your subtitles will not be displayed by most players! Anyway, I will probably add that option in the next version.

Subtitles are a bit of a pain. It all depends on what you are using to play the video. Pretty much every hardware player has it's own quirks when it comes to what/how it can display the various formats. Some would not play vobsubs at all, some only muxed, some only external, some would display them too big and can't position them. Since there are so many such players - from Dune to Popcorn Hour to tv media ports (not to mention different models for each), there is no one sub format that would work seamlessly on everything. For example a friend of mine that has Dune reported muxed sups work fine but vobsubs don't, another with Popcorn Hour reported the same thing. So I guess it's a matter for each user to find what works best with his gear.
I'm happy to read you'll likely add an option for sub format export. Note that when using sup, the mux cmd would need to be modified, because I don't think anything plays sups externally. Not even popular software players (which usually have the least amount of quirks and restrictions).
mkvmerge applies compression on sup by default so they don't actually take as much space as their original size (I think with compression it's about 1/2).

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 12:32

I tried copying over all the dlls from the tool set and that didn't help. Tried loading libmfxsw32.dll in avs but judging from the avs erro it's isn't an avisynth plugin (seems to be intel sdk). Maybe I need a copy in sys?Yes, it's the Intel library, used by the two MVC decoders. You can copy it somewhere in your PATH, like in system32 (on a 32-bit system) or SYSWOW64 (on a 64-bit system), or you can edit your PATH variable to include the toolset. But I'm still not sure that it will work, because the two decoders are supposed to load the lib from the directory where they reside.

That's what I ended up doing. used crop after AssumeFPS. I remember asking you about crop back when coreavc was in use and the command was much more complex so wasn't sure it's that simple here :)Yes, that's simpler with the new decoders, because they produce the frames in standard HD format. The old decoders produced the frames already stacked in SBS or T&B format, and therefore it was necessary to divide them before applying the crop.

I'm not entirely sure the AR flag in mkvmerge is even necessary. I tried it with and without and mediainfo/avinaptic both report the same AR. It doesn't hurt, but not sure it's really needed.Correct, the right AR should be present in the h264 stream, and therefore you can probably assume that MkvMerge will retrieve it correctly. But you must at least remove the AR definition from the _mux_3D_options.txt file, as otherwise it will force the wrong 16:9 AR.

Reason I was asking was that I wanted to generate a sup file instead of vobsub and one of the required fields (which I later found out was somewhat optional) was what 3dp file to use and with 32 different ones I wasn't sure what to do.
At the end I used the temp_2D.xml located in 00001.track_4608.En.3D_2D and left the 3dp box empty. If I understand correctly from the replies, that was the right way to do it.Yes, if the 3D-plane that has been automatically used by BD3D2MK3D during the first conversion is correct. (I have already encountered a lot of 3DBDs with wrong, empty or non-assigned 3D-planes, and BD3D2MK3D tries to select the right plane automatically, but can fail in some difficult cases.)

Subtitles are a bit of a pain. It all depends on what you are using to play the video. Pretty much every hardware player has it's own quirks when it comes to what/how it can display the various formats. Some would not play vobsubs at all, some only muxed, some only external, some would display them too big and can't position them. Since there are so many such players - from Dune to Popcorn Hour to tv media ports (not to mention different models for each), there is no one sub format that would work seamlessly on everything. For example a friend of mine that has Dune reported muxed sups work fine but vobsubs don't, another with Popcorn Hour reported the same thing. So I guess it's a matter for each user to find what works best with his gear. I agree. But I'm pretty sure that the compatibility is much better if you use the VobSub format. It's why I haven't tried to implement the BD SUP format.

I'm happy to read you'll likely add an option for sub format export. Note that when using sup, the mux cmd would need to be modified, because I don't think anything plays sups externally. Not even popular software players (which usually have the least amount of quirks and restrictions).
I'm not sure I understand. What should be changed (in addition to the file extension, of course)? Currently, the subtitles are muxed INSIDE the MKV container, and you write that you "don't think anything plays sups externally". So, if they are internal, it's perfect, no? (If you need them outside the MKV container, you can simply copy and rename the subtitle files as well.)

mkvmerge applies compression on sup by default so they don't actually take as much space as their original size (I think with compression it's about 1/2).
As you can see in the _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt, my tool turns the compression off, also for compatibility reasons. The subtitle files do not consume much disc space anyway, and it is well known that many players refuse to decode the compressed subtitle streams.

--compression
0:none

mini-moose

31st May 2014, 12:45

But you must at least remove the AR definition from the _mux_3D_options.txt file, as otherwise it will force the wrong 16:9 AR.

Ah yes, I usually don't use the mux cmd so I didn't think of that :)

So, if they are internal, it's perfect, no? (If you need them outside the MKV container, you can simply copy and rename the subtitle files as well.)

Yes, that would be fine. Sorry for failing on looking into the mux options again.

my tool turns the compression off, also for compatibility reasons. The subtitle files do not consume much disc space anyway, and it is well known that many players refuse to decode the compressed subtitle streams.

That's a good point I didn't think of. I know when mkvm used header compression by default, that caused issues with a lot of players. I guess the same can happen with sub compression.
Sup files consume more space than vobsubs. Still, not a big deal if you just add one or two such streams. I don't consider space consumption a big issue anyway but some do.

Did you try using sup files yourself? I'm curious if they work on your playback setup or not (don't know what it is).

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 12:57

No, in fact, nothing work with my Samsung UE40D6500 TV, except external SRT (text) files. And the subtitles from the SRT are very badly displayed. The font is way too big. A long subtitle can be divided in a lot of lines. (I have seen subtitles divided in up to 6 lines and occupying more than the lower half of the image!) The subtitles are displayed "on the surface of the screen" when they are used with a 3D movie, and there is no way to specify a fixed depth. Samsung did a very bad job. :-(

It's why I prefer to hardcode the subtitles on my 3D movies. At least, I'm sure that they will be displayed correctly, and with the right depth. But of course, I can't store several subtitles streams for the same movie, because it doesn't make sense to display a subtiutle stream over the hardcoded subtitles.

BTW, to examine the individual depths of the 3D subtitles generated with the 3D-planes, I recommend to hardcode them. Subtitles displayed by the player may be at a wrong position, or may have been scaled up or down. In all cases, you can't trust what you see.

mini-moose

31st May 2014, 13:07

No, in fact, nothing work with my Samsung UE40D6500ץ
It's why I prefer to hardcode the subtitles on my 3D movies.

BTW, to examine the individual depths of the 3D subtitles generated with the 3D-planes, I recommend to hardcode them.

Aww, that's too bad. I guess hardcoding is the way to go in such cases. A lot of those players have been designed to do the minimum, which causes a lot of issues having everything work perfectly all the time. The case is especially evident in tv media ports which are a side extra feature and not the main thing.

r0lZ

31st May 2014, 14:22

Yeah. I have also an old LaCie LaCinema HDD, and that one displays the embedded IDX/SUB and other formats, but it's not a 3D player, and therefore the TV must decode the SBS. Unfortunately, the LaCie changes the position and size of the 3D subtitles and therefore they are displayed at the wrong depth. Anyway, it is a pain to use the TV to decode the SBS signal sent by the Lacie, because the OSD of the Lacie is decoded as well, and since it has not been encoded in SBS, you imagine the result!

Currently, don't have a 3D graphics card in my PC, but I will certainly have one with my next PC. I hope that dedicated players such as Stereoscopic Player can display the 3D subtitles correctly.

Privateer5000

31st May 2014, 22:50

Just found another BD with the "zerro" thing.
Resident Evil Retribution. The String from Tab 1 is:
"Subtitle: Deu PGS (Stream #0 3d-plane: zerro)".
BD3D2MK3D

I attached Screenshots to this Post of Tab 1 and 2. I also attached a Screenshot of the Error Message when BD3D2MK3D aborts. This Message appears when the conversion process for the subtitles is supposed to start. All Streams are demuxed, the 3d-planes are extracted from the mvc file (2 files in this case) and the 2D Subtitle are present in IDX/SUB format. As you can see, this movie has only 1 Subtitle. Both 3d-planes have the same stats. Same number of frames, same starting frame and same end frame. The only difference is that the fixed depth is different, one has 9 and the other 11. Do you known how a 3D BD Player knows which depth is correct?

Concerning Problems with BD SUP and Players. I use the BD SUP format at least six months or longer with my 2D Movies and didn't encounter any Problems. On my HTPC i use Media Player Home Classic which is enclosed in the K-Lite Codec Pack or the Combine Community Codec Pack. No Problems. On my Android Phone (Galaxy S4 Active) and Tablet (Xperia Tablet Z) i use MX Player, no matter if the movie is on the SD Card or if i stream it via DLNA from my HTPC.
I have a passive Grundig 3D TV and i use the Top-Buttom Method and let the TV decode the Top&Buttom Image. Without Cropping all Subtitles are displayed at the right position and as far as i can say from what i have seen till now all with the right depth. To be honest i never tried the media Player of my TV because my HTPC is hooked up directly to my TV.

Hope this helps.

r0lZ

1st June 2014, 09:47

OK, I see. Excellent description of the bug. I should be able to fix it. Thanks.
(BTW, you can copy/paste the content of the error dialogue. It's easier than making screenshot.)

You are lucky if the solution with your HTPC and MPC works for you. But it's not the case of everyone. For example, in my case, the TV and the PC are connected via the ethernet cable and my router, and therefore I can play files stored on the HDD of the PC with my TV, but it's still the TV that has to render the 3D. Anyway, since it is possible to play the BD SUP files with more players than I thought, I will support that format, in addition to the current SubRip format.

[EDIT] Damn! That was so simple! I haven't noticed the "zerro" typo in tsMuxeR. In my code it is spelled correctly "zero", and of course, the test to convert that pseudo plane number to a real number did not work. That will be easy to fix.

Now, it would be nice if I could also understand the meaning of that "zerro". I don't know what plane I should use when that case happens.

When BD3D2MK3D opens the 3D BD, it tries to show only the relevant 3D titles. For example, it excludes the very short titles and the menus. Sometimes, the same movie is present several times (in fact, several MPLS files reference exactly the same SSIF files, in the same order). In that case, BD3D2MK3D tries to select the "best" MPLS, notably by analysing the plane numbers of the subtitle streams. BD3D2MK3D keeps the MPLS that has a valid (non-"zerro") 3D-plane associated with each subtitle stream. But when there are no MPLS with enough 3D-plane definitions, it selects the one with the most numerous 3D-planes definitions. If the user wants to convert a subtitle without a 3D-plane, it uses the second valid 3D-plane (usually plane #1), or the first one if there is only a single valid 3D-plane. (It uses the second plane by default because I have noticed that often the first plane is less complete than the second one, probably because it corresponds to the original language of the movie and that there are less things to translate.) Of course, I can't be sure that the selected plane is the best one, and I don't think there is another method to find the best one.
Note that you can examine all 3D MPLS files in your BD if you click the "Show All 3D Playlists" button. You can even select a MPLS with less 3D-plane definitions if you wish, but of course it's not recommended.

pharaoh

1st June 2014, 09:53

Hi r0lZ and all. Sorry if this is covered somewhere in previous 108 pages. I skimmed thru, but to no avail. My objective: use MakeMKV and BD3D2MK3D to generate half-HD OU mkv copies of my 3D blu-ray's. So far, I've done three disks, with a 33% success rate. The failure mode is one of the two eyes being garbled up.

Summary:
1) Monster House - I got a warning after decoding that the two video streams had different number of frames. I encoded anyway and the result was the right eye garbled.

2) How to Train Your Dragon - no warnings, and perfect result.

3) Hobbit 2 part 1 - no warnings, but the LEFT eye garbled. See attachment. What's even more interesting is that the first 205 seconds of the movie are fine (good 3D). Then, in the middle of a scene, the artefacts start and remain for the rest of the film.

Of course, in all cases I see the initial disclaimer when I try to open folder containing the copy of the disk created by makemkv - "due to BD structure, reading from a copy may not work", or something like that. So I guess I shouldn't be to surprised. But the fact that it worked once gives me hope.

My process flow:
- create a "backup" with MakeMKV.
- remove the .smap extensions from the ssif folder
- run BD3D3MK3D, open the folder containing the backup
- set my encoding options and title and go
- after decoding is finished, run "_encode.cmd"
- hope for the best

My questions:
1) Is it a sync issue during decoding? Why? Any way, automatic or manual to re-sync the frames?
2) Can you explain the why there is a difference between the disk structure and the backup?
3) Is there any way to extract the left and right eye tracks directly from an MVC video track instead of the disk structure?

Thanks!

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 10:38

Of course, in all cases I see the initial disclaimer when I try to open folder containing the copy of the disk created by makemkv - "due to BD structure, reading from a copy may not work", or something like that.

What size is your backup? never tried makemkv for 3d backup but I know in other softwares it comes out twice the size which is why it's usually recommended to backup to .iso which also keeps the structure intact. Sadly, I think makemkv doesn't have an .iso option.

Privateer5000

1st June 2014, 10:47

I had the best experience with ISO Files, mounted with a Virtual Drive. Except that "zerro" Thing by some subtiltes i had no problems with BD3D2MK3D.
Lets give it a try and use another Software to make your "Backup".

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 11:15

Lets give it a try and use another Software to make your "Backup".

Main problem is that other softwares cost more money..

r0lZ

1st June 2014, 11:18

That sync problems can happen when the BD has not been correctly ripped. In case of a read-error, the ripper may stop with an error message, or continue silently. In the latter case, chances are that some frames will be missing, or impossible to decode. Of course, when the BD is converted to SBS or T&B, the missing frames are skipped, and a desync occurs between the left and right views. Since the MVC stream (usually the right view) depends of the AVC stream (the other view), after a desync problem, the dependent view cannot be decoded properly.

I don't know if MakeMKV does its job correctly when it encounters a read error, but imo your best chance is to retry to rip the BD in better conditions (after having cleaned up the disc, and/or with another BD drive, and/or with another ripper program). Also, I think that ripping the BD to an ISO and mounting that ISO may give better results than copying all files to a folder on HDD. Unfortunately, afaik there is no other ways to re-sync the frames.

There is a big difference between the disc structure and the backup of a 3D BD. (The backup of a 2D BD is more or less identical to the original.) That difference concerns only the backups as files in a folder, and not if your backup is an ISO.

The 3D BD standard is an extension to the original 2D BD standard, and has to be compatible with the 2S standard. For that reason, the 3D BDs have exactly the same disc structure than a 2D BD, with MPLS and M2TS files in the same directories. A 2D player "sees" only that 2D files. But in a 3D BD, there are other files and extensions of the MPLS files. One of the major differences is that there is a new MPLS file for the second view. That MPLS is encoded in MVC and requires the corresponding AVC M2TS to be decoded correctly. The 3D player could read and decode the 2 files at the same time and display the 3D images. However, to do so, it would have to read data from the AVC file, then data from the MVC file, and again from the AVC and then MVC, and so on. That would require to constantly jump from a position in the disc (within the AVC file) to another position (in the MVC file) then back to the AVC file, and so on. It's not possible with a slow medium like a BD, and therefore the 2 streams are also present as a combined 3D stream.

Of course, it is not possible to include two times the same movie (once in 2D and once in 3D) because that would require too much disc space. Therefore, the 3D BDs use a trick at the file system level. The 3D movie is stored in a SSIF file that is the combination of the 2 M2TS files, interleaved one into each other. That means that there are 3 entries for the same data in the directory of the 3D BD: One M2TS entry for the 2D AVC stream (seen by the 2D and 3D players), one M2TS entry for the MVC stream (not used by the players but present anyway), and one SSIF entry for the AVC+MVC streams (seen by the 3D players only). It is important to understand that the SSIF entry points to the data pointed to by the two M2TS entries, and therefore that the data is present only once. The trick is similar to the hard links of the NTFS file system, but with the addition that the SSIF "link" points to two embedded files at the same time. Therefore, when the 3D BD is copied to the hard disc, the copier "sees" 3 files and copies them all. By doing so, it copies the dame data two times: once for the two M2TS files, and once for the SSIF. The final copy on HDD occupies therefore about two times the disc space of the original 3D BD. It's why I recommend to rip the 3D BDs as ISOs, because that preserves that complex disc structure and that takes less disc space and less time to do the copy. But you should be able to convert also the files copied on HDD to SBS or T&B anyway. The decoders do not need the original disc structure to work correctly, as long as it can find the necessary files.

It is theoretically possible to extract the 2 views from the 2 M2TS files (or from the combined SSIF), but that will not solve the problem of the desync. What you have on your HDD is almost certainly somewhat bad, and you have to start from a good copy. (You can also start from the original BD decoded on the fly by AnyDVD, but I don't know what happens in case of a read error.)

[EDIT] There have been 3 replies when I was typing this long reply. As you can see, they suggest the same thing than me. Do a good backup to an ISO.

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 12:00

That sync problems can happen when the BD has not been correctly ripped.

Yeah, my best bet is that makemkv isn't the best ripper for 3D.

pharaoh

1st June 2014, 12:47

Thanks for detailed info. Makemkv backup is about the same size as the disk itself, certainly not double. The backup of a 3d disk is also about 1.5x the size of the 2D mkv file that makemkv makes, which sounds about right given that the second eye consumes about 50% the space of the first eye. The backup basically contains the BDMV folder and the CERTIFICATE folder. Maybe the makemkv guys figured out how not to copy the data twice. Something to do with that .smap extension, perhaps?

I got hooked on Makemkv (long before 3D) because it is free and so far has decripted everything I've thrown at it. But thank you for mentioning that read errors might be the root cause. I recall now seeing some "...failed hash check" errors in the makemkv log. I didn't know what they meant so just ignored them. I'll investigate that further.

That said, I don't mind trying the backup to iso approach. So how do I backup to ISO, and then mount and decrypt, for free?

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 13:31

I got hooked on Makemkv (long before 3D) because it is free and so far has decripted everything I've thrown at it.

That said, I don't mind trying the backup to iso approach. So how do I backup to ISO, and then mount and decrypt, for free?

I never tried backing up 3D with makemkv, also don't know what .smap files are.

I don't know of any free softwares to decrypt blurays, maybe there are but I'd suspect non of them would be as good as commercial ones (specifically AnyDVD HD).

You can try and install an anydvdhd trial, backup one of the discs you had issues with to .iso and see if you get the same issues or not. Just as a way to validate or refute the theory the 3d back up using makemkv is the cause.

Mounting tools are easy to find free, I prefer Virtual Clone Drive myself.

Privateer5000

1st June 2014, 13:32

The HD Decrypter of DVDFab for example is always free, even when the trial expires but it could happend that it can't decrypt new BD's (never had that case, but it has to be mentioned). AnyDVD has a trial period of 21 Days and there are some ways to extend this. Google is here your best friend ;)
To mount an ISO you can use DVDFab Virtual Drive, Virtual Clone Drive or Daemon Tools Lite, all Freeware.

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 13:38

AnyDVD has a trial period of 21 Days and there are some ways to extend this.
It would be a problem when discs need server assistance. As far I know trial versions do not have the possibility to do that.

The HD Decrypter of DVDFab for example is always free
Yeah, I assume it will have some problems with some newer discs but could be an option. Note that dvdfab has made some changes recently to their products (I believe due to some lawsuit). I'm not convinced the free HD decrypter still works as it used to.

r0lZ

1st June 2014, 13:47

To mount the ISO under Win 8, you just have to double-click it. No additional program is needed. Not sure for Win 7.
I like WinMount, because it can also mount ZIP, RAR and 7Z archive files, but it is not free.

r0lZ

1st June 2014, 16:16

Here is the new version of my GUI.

It fixes the "3D-plane: zerro" bug and lets you select either the VobSub or BD SUP format for the subtitle files (in 2D and 3D modes). It fixes also another bug in the Chapter File Converter.

Please note that I have NOT tested the fix for the zerro bug. Please try the new version with a BD that failed previously. Thanks.

Note also that the original SUP files are still converted to IDX/SUB format in 2D, even when the BD SUP format has been selected. I use that conversion to determine a couple of things, like the number of forced subtitles in the original stream, and it was too difficult to remove it. But the stream is converted to 3D in the right format, and the right file is muxed in the final MKV file.

# v0.36 (June 1, 2014)
# - It is now possible to mux the subtitles in BD SUP format instead of VobSub (IDX/SUB) format.
# - Fix: Crash when trying to convert a subtitle stream to 3D with the 3D-plane "zerro" (sic).
# - Fix: Tool -> Convert Chapter File was unable to load OGM chapter files demuxed by some versions of MkvExtract.

As usual, download it here (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/BD3D2AVS/BD3D2MK3D.7z).

mini-moose

1st June 2014, 17:04

Great, thanks r0lz.

trumpet205

2nd June 2014, 04:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a rookie on Doom9. I bought number of Blu-ray 3D over the years, and now would like to convert them to H-TAB. I can use MakeMKV to rip it into MKV, then use tsmuxer to demux AVC and MVC streams.

I don't know how to proceed from there. Is there an Avisynth example I can follow?

Privateer5000

2nd June 2014, 07:32

There is an easy way to convert your 3D BD's . Throw away makemkv, rip your BD's to an ISO file and use BD3D2MK3D provided by r0lz 2 Posts above yours. It is the only software right now which creates 3D Subtitles with the right depth like the genuine BD. Easy to use and userfriendly. Even Commercial Software like DVDFab is not able to reach the efficencie of BD3D2MK3D (DVDfab creates 12 GB+ Files with CRF 18-20 and BD3D2MK3D makes files smaler 9 GB from the same Movie with equal CRF Settings) and this here is for free.

r0lZ

2nd June 2014, 10:15

:goodpost:
Thanks for the ad, Privateer5000! :rolleyes:

trumpet205

2nd June 2014, 19:19

I don't care about subtitle, and I prefer to encode them using MeGUI. ;)

r0lZ

3rd June 2014, 12:40

# v0.37 (June 3, 2014)
# - Added an alt 3D detection mode to try to open badly authored 3D BDs (without the SSIF folder).
# - Now uses the new alt 3D detection mode when the SSIF folder contains only .SMAP files created by MakeMKV.
# - The number of channels (stereo, 5.1, 7.1) is now added to the label of the audio streams in the MKV file.
# - Fix: LPCM (WAV) audio tracks were not muxed in the final MKV file.
# - Fix: LPCM (WAV) audio tracks were not converted to AC3 when the Convert to AC3 option was ticked.
# - Updated the Intel MVC decoder library to the latest version (libmfxsw32.dll v5.14.4.28)

As you can see, I have added a new method to detect if the BD is a 3D BD and to find the 3D titles within the 3D BD. The new method is slower (especially if there are many MPLS files in the BD) and it may be less reliable, but it can detect 3D titles in badly authored BDs, such as "Albator corsaire de l'espace" (the French version of "Space Pirate Captain Harlock"), that has no SSIF folder! :eek:

The new detection method should also be able to handle the SSIF files with the SMAP extension created with MakeMKV, without the need to create hard links, and it should therefore be possible to open that backup folders more easily.

The new detection method is never used without your consent. If the program cannot open a BD with the old method or if it detects .SMAP files in the SSIF folder, it will ask you if you want to use the alt method. Use it at your own risk!

This version has also a little improvement and fixes a couple of bugs.

Download: BD3D2MK3D.7z (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/BD3D2AVS/BD3D2MK3D.7z)

mini-moose

3rd June 2014, 14:57

Fix: LPCM (WAV) audio tracks were not converted to AC3 when the Convert to AC3 option was ticked.

Might be a good option to convert to Flac too (eac3to can do flac conversions), since AC3 is lossy. Flac 16bit should be smaller than AC3 and better quality. 24bit is also possible but bigger in size.

r0lZ

3rd June 2014, 18:14

Hum, yes, but who wants FLAC in MKV vidoe files? I have never seen that, and imo most players do not support that format (except perhaps some rare and expensive hardware media players). IMO, converting to AC3 makes sense to regain disc space and, when converting from DTS, for compatibility reasons, but FLAC consumes at least 40% of the original WAV and is not widely supported, and therefore is not really interesting for that purposes. Also, currently, there is an option to convert DTS AND WAV to AC3, and I don't want to multiply the options. My GUI is supposed to convert 3D BDs to the most usual MKV video formats only.

mini-moose

3rd June 2014, 21:02

imo most players do not support that format (except perhaps some rare and expensive hardware media players). IMO, converting to AC3 makes sense to regain disc space and, when converting from DTS, for compatibility reasons, but FLAC consumes at least 40% of the original WAV and is not widely supported

Fair enough, just a suggestion. I only use software players so I wouldn't know about hardware media players (they are too restrictive for my taste). But from what I've seen LPCM to Flac 16bit takes less space than top AC3 bitrate. I don't know what bitrate AC3 is transcoded to with the software. If it's to 192k then of course it will be smaller. However most LPCM audios are very high bitrate, so if I do convert them to AC3, I usually use highest bitrate AC3 too.

r0lZ

3rd June 2014, 22:05

640 Kbps by default. But you can also use the "Convert audio file to AC3" tool to overwrite the AC3 file if you prefer a lower bitrate.

Also, I realize that I have selected 640 Kbps by default because it's usually a DTS 5.1 that is converted to AC3. For a stereo LPCM, that bitrate may be too high. But LPCM audio is rare on 3D BDs, except perhaps for musical films or concerts, and in that case, a good audio quality is important.

Thalyn

5th June 2014, 02:47

So here's a curious one for Slavanap with his ssifSource4.43 plugin: using the appropriate series of commands results in the second half of the the output returning a periodic error.

Basically, in accordance with my tests from a few pages ago I've started using the following to combine my streams into a half over/under result:
Left = SelectEven (SeparateRows (Blur (Left, 0, 1), 2))
Right = SelectOdd (SeparateRows (Blur (Right, 0, 1), 2))
HOU = StackVertical (Left, Right)
NB If you don't use the AVISynth 2.6 Alpha than you'll have to switch out SeparateRows with SeparateFields, and also apply AssumeTFF. The issue still occurs identically when using 2.5.8.

The weird part is that it's not entirely clear what command is causing the problem. It's only by using Blur and StackVertical in tandem that there's an issue, which results in the bottom part of the frame periodically displaying green. Dropping out either of those commands causes it to render perfectly (though obviously not merging them makes for poor 3D playback). The SelectEven/Odd and SeparateRows commands have no influence on the error at all, as best I can tell. What's even more weird is that the error is always on the bottom half of the frame, so even switching around the order of Left and Right in StackVertical still results in the bottom causing the issue - it's not associated with the AVC or MVC stream.

The actual issue seems to stem from how it determines what frame it's showing. If I remove all of my cropping and set the AVC stream to be the bottom it actually flicks up an error saying that it cannot retrieve a given frame because it's expecting the next one with the note indicating that it only supports sequential frame rendering.

The good news is that it's fairly consistent, happening every 30 frames; though it doesn't actually occur on exact multiples of 30. For example, the streams I'm testing now had errors on frame #0 and #1, then it started occurring regularly on #29, #59, #89, #119, #149 and so forth. It also occurs whether the JM decoder or the Intel decoder is in use, regardless of what the source stream is. FWIW, neither DGMVC nor FRIM show the same issue with the same sequence of commands.

Let me know if you need any more info.

*Ed: I do split the frames off into AVC and MVC earlier in the piece by cropping the stream. If I leave the stream unaltered it displays no issue, however it also doesn't use the StackVertical command so I can't really tell whether that's a coincidence or not. Attempting to be horribly inefficient and use two different commands to read the source (one each for the AVC and MVC frames) doesn't work at all - it just stalls with no CPU or HDD usage to speak of, even if I tell it to use two different decoders.