Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph

[mini-moose]

That throw light on why pistacho wants us to promote his soft. He count on us to earn more money.

Yeah, I don't appreciate that either. Makes me suspicious as to what else goes in the install.

There are several freeware that have adware "angles" such as 3rd party tools bundled with the install (toolbars etc), but the kind ones let you choose not to install those, probably hoping you will just press next and do it anyway. Mediainfo for example.

I tried to do an encode with this program and it failed due to some reason. After uninstalling it I had to reinstall haali cause directshow stopped working.

[Sharc]

Yeah, I don't appreciate that either. Makes me suspicious as to what else goes in the install.
................... After uninstalling it I had to reinstall haali cause directshow stopped working.
Same happened here: I had to reinstall Haali for directshow to work. Apparently the Uninstall of BDtoAVCHD is not clean.
In the VCDhelp Forum BDtoAVCHD is still declared as Freeware rather than Adware.
I think Pistacho would do himself a favour if he would release or license the MVCsource.dll in some acceptable manner.

[Nico8583]

I think Pistacho would do himself a favour if he would release or license the MVCsource.dll in some acceptable manner.
I'm agree with you ;)

[r0lZ]

Yes, I noticed that Haali problem too. I have installed BDtoAVCHD only in a sandbox, and it is easy to see exactly what is installed by the installer. I have noticed that the Haali filters were installed anyway, even though they are already present and correctly installed on my system. The installer replaces your previously installed version without your consent, and it is not surprising that the uninstaller uninstalls it and removes the registry entries. You ends up with a non-working installation, but with the original files still present on your system. (Luckily, since my version was in a sandbox, the installer has been unable to damage my original install.) So, BDtoAVCHD does exactly what pistacho wanted to avoid by imposing a single installation of his DLL. The solution I have suggested (to use only a local modification of the PATH variable) is much more secure. But obviously, the real reason behind his refusal is just money, and not the possibility of a conflict.

And indeed, with the permission to use and distribute his DLL, I would have added a link to his program. Now, he will lose all advantages, including financial, to share his filter with us. Pity for him.

[Nico8583]

I have opened this topic in Avisynth Development section : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=169982 :)

[r0lZ]

Good idea. Thanks. :-)

[Sharc]

......... I need a way to grab its output from within an avisynth script, to compose the SBS or T&B images directly from the source, without having to write huge files on disc. It's what MVCSource does. Pity we can't use it in acceptable conditions.

Sidenote: For a given target size like BD9 I found the viewing quality of half horizontal resolution SBS encoded with x264 still better than full resolution MVC with Intel/FRIM, due to the superiority of x264 at lower bitrates and the low savings of the dependent view with Intel/Frim (dependent view=about 80% of the size of the base view). Maybe that the difference in quality becomes less for BD25 (higher bitrates). I didn't try yet.

[r0lZ]

Yes, I really want to keep x264 to encode. The Intel encoder is not really better than the encoder of DVDFab, and there will be no reason to use our tools if they do not give a better quality than DVDFab or other commercial encoders.

[pistacho]

Thanks for all "positive" feedback aka criticism

But thanks because all these downside will be solved in next release :D:


License: Freeware --> Ad-supported
Haali break on uninstall (not intentionally, of course)
Something more?


Software only has a banner (like android app). Is this really something so evil?

It does *NOT* include any kind of third ad-ware optional/or forced to install. Hard for me to understand this position. I find it stupid. Ad-supported != Adware != malware

With time that some are wasted here could have learned to program and stop asking for things to others.

[jdobbs]

Couple of days back Jdobbs mentioned his main focus will be on doing proper 3d, rather than SBS or OU and based on light of this I think he uses pipe between two process, but of course I could be wrong as well.Yes. I use pipes between FRIMDecode and FRIMEncode. I'm also thinking about writing a CLI program that will read directly from SSIF and feed FRIMDecode with the elementary streams -- but I haven't done much in that direction yet. I haven't even checked to see if FRIMDecode can accept piped input.

Sidenote: For a given target size like BD9 I found the viewing quality of half horizontal resolution SBS encoded with x264 still better than full resolution MVC with Intel/FRIM, due to the superiority of x264 at lower bitrates and the low savings of the dependent view with Intel/Frim (dependent view=about 80% of the size of the base view). Maybe that the difference in quality becomes less for BD25 (higher bitrates). I didn't try yet.I don't get the X264/FRIMEncode comparison discussion. FRIMEncoder does MVC, X264 doesn't. So what's to compare? Since you are encoding twice as many frames at the same bitrate, it isn't really fair to compare them. FRIMEncoder gives excellent quality if you are outputting to a BD-25 -- but doubling the number of frames for 3D can make BD-5/9 output pretty challenging. In fact I don't think I'd recommend it (even if X264 did support MVC).

I'm just not satisfied with SBS 3D when I can have full 1080p 3D, and BD-25 discs are available at about the same cost of DL DVD+R now.

I did some PSNR comparisons between FRIMEncoder and X264 doing standard 2D encoding, and while X264 did better, the differences weren't as great as some of the comments I've read would have you believe. I know PSNR isn't a perfect test -- but there is no perfect test.

Don't get me wrong. I love X264 and think it the best AVC encoder you can find. But when it doesn't do what you need for a specific application (MVC) you have to look elsewhere. Right now FRIMEncoder is the best choice for MVC in the freeware community.

[r0lZ]

I agree. We cannot compare x264 and FRIMencoder, when they are used to encode different material. But when we encode to SBS or T&B, any h264 encoder is suitable for that job. I want to use the best one, especially because most peoples who encode in MKV SBS/T&B do it mainly for a good reason: the disc space. So, we need an encoder that compress well without too much loss. x264 is perfect for that. I haven't said that the FRIMencoder is bad. It is only less suitable for what I want to do. (DVDFab is not that bad either, if you accept to give 2 or 3 times the bitrate necessary for a good encoding with x264.) Anyway, the problem, currently, is the missing avisynth MVC decoder plugin. The encoder used at the end of the process is not a problem per se.

[r0lZ]

Ad-supported != Adware != malware
Ad-supported is equal to Adware, by definition.
Is Adware equal to malware? That depends of the ad network used. Most are spyware too, and therefore evil. It's specially the case of Adsense.

Anyway, it's not because your app is ad-supported that we do not want to promote it. It's because you are trying to make money with our job, by forcing us to promote your app. It's not acceptable, especially for a commercial program. It is ad-supported, therefore you should spend some money to promote it yourself.

[mini-moose]

It does *NOT* include any kind of third ad-ware optional/or forced to install. Hard for me to understand this position. I find it stupid. Ad-supported != Adware != malware


wikipedia describes adware as "Adware, or advertising-supported software, is any software package which automatically renders advertisements in order to generate revenue for its author."

Personally I don't like having ad banners running on anything.

[pistacho]

From WIKIPEDIA:


Advertising-supported software
In legitimate software, the advertising functions are integrated into or bundled with the program. Adware is usually seen by the developer as a way to recover development costs, and in some cases, it may allow the software to be provided to the user free of charge or at a reduced price. The income derived from presenting advertisements to the user may allow or motivate the developer to continue to develop, maintain and upgrade the software product.


In application software
Some software is offered in both an advertising-supported mode and a paid, advertisement-free mode. The latter is usually available by an online purchase of a license or registration code for the software that unlocks the mode, or the purchase and download of a separate version of the software.[a]
Some software authors offer advertising-supported versions of their software as an alternative option to business organizations seeking to avoid paying large sums for software licenses, funding the development of the software with higher fees for advertisers.[7]
Examples of advertising-supported software include the Windows version of the Internet telephony application Skype,[8] and the Amazon Kindle 3 family of e-book readers, which has versions called "Kindle with Special Offers" that display advertisements on the home page and in sleep mode in exchange for substantially lower pricing.[9]
In 2012, Microsoft and their advertising division, Microsoft Advertising, announced that Windows 8, the forthcoming major release of the Microsoft Windows operating system, would provide built-in methods for software authors to use advertising support as a business model.[11][12] The idea had been considered since as early as 2005.[13]


[B]As malware
The term adware is frequently used to describe a form of malware (malicious software)

[r0lZ]

Adware, or advertising-supported software, is any software package which automatically renders advertisements in order to generate revenue for its author. The advertisements may be in the user interface of the software or on a screen presented to the user during the installation process. The functions may be designed to analyze which Internet sites the user visits and to present advertising pertinent to the types of goods or services featured there. The term is sometimes used to refer to software that displays unwanted advertisements.

(n.) (1) Adware is the common name used to describe software that is given to the user with advertisements embedded in the application. Adware is considered a legitimate alternative offered to consumers who do not wish to pay for software. There are many ad-supported programs, games or utilities that are distributed as adware (or freeware). Today we have a growing number of software developers who offer their goods as "sponsored" freeware (adware) until you pay to register. If you're using legitimate adware, when you stop running the software, the ads should disappear, and you always have the option of disabling the ads by purchasing a registration key.

(2) Another use of the phrase adware is to describe a form of spyware that collects information about the user in order to display advertisements in the Web browser. Unfortunately, some applications that contain adware track your Internet surfing habits in order to serve ads related to you. When the adware becomes intrusive like this, then we move it into the spyware category and it then becomes something you should avoid for privacy and security reasons.
Since your program uses Adsense, the ad network of Google, well known to be also a very aggressive spyware, your software IS adware and, at least to some extent, malware.
Anyway, as I wrote above, it's not the point. You have never helped us, but you took many things from us. Now, you have an opportunity to help us, but you refuse it. It's OK, continue your program alone. But please don't continue to pollute this thread.

[pistacho]

...But please don't continue to pollute this thread.

I came here because Nico8583 mailed me:


Hi,
I'm a doom9 forum user and I have discover your software.
We're very interested to use your MVCSource decoder with anothers softwares so we would like to know if your decoder is free to use ? Or in what condition can we use it ?
Also, could you give us more information about your decoder ?
You can find our discussion here : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155246&page=87
Thanks a lot !

[r0lZ]

I know that. I would have appreciated your presence here if you had proposed something acceptable for us, like the first proposition you did. But you have changed your mind, and therefore you have nothing useful to offer and we don't need you here any more. You can of course continue to read this thread, but if you want to write something here, write something positive, provide a useful info or offer something constructive. Do not continue to justify the philosophy of your ad-supported program. It's totally useless for us.

[Sharc]

I don't get the X264/FRIMEncode comparison discussion. FRIMEncoder does MVC, X264 doesn't. So what's to compare? Since you are encoding twice as many frames at the same bitrate, it isn't really fair to compare them. FRIMEncoder gives excellent quality if you are outputting to a BD-25 -- but doubling the number of frames for 3D can make BD-5/9 output pretty challenging. In fact I don't think I'd recommend it (even if X264 did support MVC).

I'm just not satisfied with SBS 3D when I can have full 1080p 3D, and BD-25 discs are available at about the same cost of DL DVD+R now.

I did some PSNR comparisons between FRIMEncoder and X264 doing standard 2D encoding, and while X264 did better, the differences weren't as great as some of the comments I've read would have you believe. I know PSNR isn't a perfect test -- but there is no perfect test.

Don't get me wrong. I love X264 and think it the best AVC encoder you can find. But when it doesn't do what you need for a specific application (MVC) you have to look elsewhere. Right now FRIMEncoder is the best choice for MVC in the freeware community.

No worry, I don't get you wrong, and it has not been my intention to ctiticize the Intel/Frim encoder or to glorify the x264, but the comparison which I did is legal I believe.
Presently we have the choice between free Intel/FRIM (MVC) or free x264 (SBS) for 3D encoding, and my comparison was based on viewing impression of the 2 methods using equal target size (BD9). The overall bitrate -- i.e. for left plus right view) was in the order of 7000 kbps for the 2 hours movie which presents a challenge for 3D encoding, I agree. If I do however accept the quality of a 2D backup on a BD5 it should be possible to get similar acceptable results for 3D on a BD9 (2 x number of pictures, but only 1 x audio), correct?

When viewing the movie I gave the SBS/x264 encode a preference (visual impression with my eyes and playback infrastructure) over the MVC/Intel result, despite the lower horizontal resolution of the SBS encode => less visible macroblocks in demanding scenes, less blurring of details (e.g. "wax" areas in hair, fur, leaves, sand ...).
No doubt, we are more than happy to have now Intel/FRIM available as free MVC encoder. Quality is good and MVC has the advantage that the disc can be played on a legacy 2D infrastructure (using the base view), whereas the SBS variant cannot be played on legacy 2D player/TV setup I think. But so far BD9 seems to be barely sufficient, and more so for Intel/MVC than for SBS/x264 I think.

Looking forward .... :) :)

[frencher]

Even if my apps are not perfect by great lack of time, i am listening to users and i quote those who participated in the improvement of my apps (even you r0lZ you can check lol).
Pistachio anything, for your invaluable help, no comment !!!

I'll see later FRIM because I do not have time right now

[mini-moose]

From WIKIPEDIA:

Point is, you're happy to build your software around lots of completely free tools (avisynth, tsmuxer, mkvmerge, x264, bdsup2sub, haali splitter, eac3to etc), but would not agree to let
others do the same with useful parts you wrote, unless they install the full software with ads, whether they will use it or not.

Write your own replacements to all those free tools and then it would make sense.

[r0lZ]

You forgot the tools, idea and info released in this thread, as you can see in the BDtoAVCHD update history.

Version 1.9.2 •Release Date: Oct 20, 2013
• Improved: the method of conversion Blu-Ray 3D to MKV/AVCHD 3D SBS avoid creating the temporary file AVC-MVC combined. Is no longer needed to use the process "MVCCombine.exe" gaining some speed.

Version 1.9.0 •Release Date: Aug 25, 2013
• New: automatic detection of views order (left-right) based on .mpls information The 'view order' chosen is also shown in list of queued jobs.

Version 1.7.0 •Release Date: Jan 6, 2012
• New: Now is possible to include hardcoded subtitles in 3D SBS conversions. It's designed for forced subtitles (cannot be disabled when playing) but maintaining the font, color and position and are compatible with any 3D playback system.
I'm sure I have forgiven a lot of other things.

As you can see, most of the improvements in BDtoAVCHD coincide with the development of our tools, and the info posted here. Obviously, he has followed this thread with great interest. But I am still searching for a valuable contribution of pisctcho to the methods developed here.

[jdobbs]

Point is, you're happy to build your software around lots of completely free tools (avisynth, tsmuxer, mkvmerge, x264, bdsup2sub, haali splitter, eac3to etc), but would not agree to let
others do the same with useful parts you wrote, unless they install the full software with ads, whether they will use it or not.

Write your own replacements to all those free tools and then it would make sense. Most of those are released under the GNU license, and it explicitly does allow including the binaries as a part of a commercial application. All it requires is that the person distributing them make the source code for the GNU licensed apps available on his/her website for a period of 3 years (or offer to provide it on some other media at cost).

But I do understand and appreciate your point.

[pistacho]

As you can see, most of the improvements in BDtoAVCHD coincide with the development of our tools, and the info posted here. Obviously, he has followed this thread with great interest. But I am still searching for a valuable contribution of pisctcho to the methods developed here.

False -> Most of the improvements in BDtoAVCHD coincide which the development of my own alternatives (coded entirely by me). As Bitrates Scan to find on the fly forced subtitles tracks and calculate bitrate of VBR audio tracks. Or extraction of forced subtitles without use BDSuptoSub (currently only is used for resize) and detection of forced subtitles embedded in normal tracks. Or many others as MVCsource, etc.


Version 1.9.2 •Release Date: Oct 20, 2013
Improved: the method of conversion Blu-Ray 3D to MKV/AVCHD 3D SBS avoid creating the temporary file AVC-MVC combined. Is no longer needed to use the process "MVCCombine.exe" gaining some speed.

MVCCombine only are used for 30 days or less and the author of this tool is Neisklar and to my knowledge has not complained about anything. (I thank him, but he has not published the source code of MVCCombine also).

please, please, please, STOP the criticism and stop talking about BDtoAVCHD in this thread.


Sorry but, with the attitude of Nico (and others) I lost the little desire I had to help.

Bye.

[Cedvano]

You have make a good work Pistacho, but all we want, is acces to MVCsource.
Don't worry, If he can use it, I'm sure they will not fail to mention you.

Thank you for your sharing.

[Nico8583]

False -> Most of the improvements in BDtoAVCHD coincide which the development of my own alternatives (coded entirely by me). As Bitrates Scan to find on the fly forced subtitles tracks and calculate bitrate of VBR audio tracks. Or extraction of forced subtitles without use BDSuptoSub (currently only is used for resize) and detection of forced subtitles embedded in normal tracks. Or many others as MVCsource, etc.
Do you code DirectShowMVCSource ?
Do you code BioMVC ?
Do you have found yourself how to detect left or right base view ?
Etc...
Your only good work is MVCsource.

MVCCombine only are used for 30 days or less and the author of this tool is Neisklar and to my knowledge has not complained about anything. (I thank him, but he has not published the source code of MVCCombine also).
The problem is not to publish the source code, the problem is to not allow to use MVCsource without install BDtoAVCHD.
And please please please don't compare Neisklar and you. Neisklar is the author of MVCCombine and DirectShowMVCSource, he doesn't forbid us to not use his work (and he had developed an Avisynth plugin like you) or force us to install an another software to use it.
Neisklar is away from this forum for a long time, but if he was here I'm pretty sure he would be agree with us.

please, please, please, STOP the criticism and stop talking about BDtoAVCHD in this thread.


Sorry but, with the attitude of Nico (and others) I lost the little desire I had to help.

Bye.
I'm agree, please stop talking about this soft in this thread. When a free to use Avisynth MVC plugin will be released, I'm pretty sure this soft wil be forget :)

[samfednik]

There are several ways, but none are quick. My preferred one is xtract.exe, that can count the frames without demuxing. But it has to read the whole stream anyway. tsMuxeR and eac3to print the number of frames in the log after a demux.
Also, as I wrote above, the number of frames can be deduced from the time codes and the frame rate, but that requires to write a little program to retrieve the time codes.
I'm not sure, but perhaps the number of frames (or the clip duration) is also present in the MPLS file.

Use Media Info:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsh0glUSoy4

[r0lZ]

I see. Thanks for the tip.

[Sharc]

Use Media Info:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsh0glUSoy4
:goodpost:

[frencher]

please, please, please, STOP the criticism and stop talking about BDtoAVCHD in this thread.

Sorry but, with the attitude of Nico (and others) I lost the little desire I had to help.

Bye.

False: It is we who've helped and guided
It is your attitude that is unacceptable.

[frencher]

http://movieyug.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Happy-New-Year-2014-HD-Theme1.jpeg

[r0lZ]

Thanks Frencher! Happy new year to you and everybody here! :-)

[Cedvano]

Happy new year everybody !

[Nico8583]

Thanks and happy new year to all !

[Wolfy59]

A little later, i wish you an happy new year

[allanlee]

And you, guys, are so fast. I've just finished wrapper to CoreAVC that allows to add it into GraphStudio graph builder.
http://sendfile.su/90132


This link seems to be dead. Can anybody help to post the file again?

Thanks in advance!

[Sharc]

...... FRIMEncoder gives excellent quality if you are outputting to a BD-25 -- but doubling the number of frames for 3D can make BD-5/9 output pretty challenging. In fact I don't think I'd recommend it (even if X264 did support MVC).....
Do 3D Blu-ray standalones accept MVC on BD-5/9 media at all? Do you/anyone have experience with compatibility?

[r0lZ]

I don't think the type of disc matters, as long as the files are standard compliant, and correctly burned. The player does not check if the disc is a BD or DVD. It just reads it. The files can be in 2D or 3D; again, that doesn't matter, except of course for the disc space and encoding quality.
But I don't use optical media for my backups any more, and I have no experience of BD-5/9. I may be wrong.

[jdobbs]

Do 3D Blu-ray standalones accept MVC on BD-5/9 media at all? Do you/anyone have experience with compatibility?I can only speak for my player -- and a 3D BD-5/9 will play on it.

[Sharc]

I can only speak for my player -- and a 3D BD-5/9 will play on it.
Good to know. It would allow me to put the cost difference between BD-25 and BD-9 aside for donations ... :D

[Cedvano]

I have only tested BD9 3D and that's work !

[slavanap]

This link seems to be dead. Can anybody help to post the file again?

Thanks in advance!

http://sendfile.su/920191

[allanlee]

http://sendfile.su/920191

Thank you soooo much! :-D

[b0mb]

hi!

one thing i need to explained...

when i encode to full sbs what eye do should come first

i´ve done 3 encodes now with left eye first and i think i had luck because its looking good.

can some1 plz explain to me!

thx in advance!

b0mb

[pistacho]

hi!

one thing i need to explained...

when i encode to full sbs what eye do should come first

i´ve done 3 encodes now with left eye first and i think i had luck because its looking good.

can some1 plz explain to me!

thx in advance!

b0mb


The most common is this:

Half SBS

StackHorizontal(HorizontalReduceBy2(Left), HorizontalReduceBy2(Right))

http://www.pantarheon.org/AviSynth3DToolbox/LeftRight3DReduced.png


Half TAB

StackVertical(VerticalReduceBy2(Left), VerticalReduceBy2(Right))

http://www.pantarheon.org/AviSynth3DToolbox/TopDown3DReduced.png

[b0mb]

excuse me but i still didn´t get it ...

i do full sbs encodes and i can choose left side first or right side first but i don´t understand when do i need left side first and when right side first... :|

the avc stream?

[pistacho]

Left always = left = first

but left can be AVC stream or MVC stream

if left is AVC (most common):

AVC = left = first
MVC = right = second


if left is MVC:

AVC = right = second
MVC = left = first

[b0mb]

ok

when avc stream ist right eye i choose right eye first, right?

i think i´ve understand it now

thx a lot :)

[pistacho]

I like it more like this:

"when avc stream ist right eye i choose MVC eye first"

:)

[r0lZ]

It is theoretically possible to do right eye first, and there are some SBS or T&B movies on youtube in that unusual format. I strongly recommend to always avoid it, as left first is now clearly the standard.

In a BD 3D, one of the two views is the "base view", encoded in AVC (classic h264 encoding), and the other view is the "dependent view", encoded in MVC. As its name implies, that view is dependent of the other view and cannot be decoded without the base view. Usually, the base view is the left view, but there are some exceptions. You have to know exactly what contains the base view, and encode the base view first when it is the left view, and the dep view first when the base view is the right view.

Note that eac3to has a bug and prints always "AVC (left eye)" for the base view and "AVC (right eye)" for the dep view. AVC for the dep view is wrong, but that's not a big problem. You must use another tool to verify if the left eye view is really the base view. My program, BD3D2MK3D fixes the output of eac3to, and prints the correct information in its GUI. You can also use tsMuxeR to see the correct information. (Unfortunately, its GUI doesn't show it. You have to use the command line to see it.)

If you use my program, you should just select "Half SBS, left first" (or "Half T&B, left first"), and it will take care of the order of the views in the AVC and MVC streams automatically. Currently, it is still possible to select "right first", but I will remove that possibility in the next version. I don't want to encourage peoples to encode in that unusual format, difficult to watch on most 3D TVs.

[b0mb]

ok... thx for the infos!

btw. i´m encoding all stuff @ fullsbs because i´m in the lucky position that my samsung led tv combined with my htpc running latest openelec nightlies i playing the encodes @ fullhd without loosing resolution ;)