Blu-Ray~DVD Backup & Conversion [Archive]

m1ckran

28th February 2008, 10:34

Hello. Now that it looks like we'll all be using Blu-Ray sooner or later, I have a question.

I have quite a collection of DVD's and I have no intention of replacing them anytime soon. Would it be possible to backup a DVD to a BD? This might be a silly question (I'm guessing that the two standards are incompatible) but I am attracted to the idea of having a BD containing the entire Lord of the Rings SEE series, without compression, driven from a custom menu. Or how about a dozen TV-series episodes driven from a similar custom menu?

Would this be feasible and might there be any plans for DVDRB to help make this possible?

PS I understand that sound-processing is on the agenda for DVDRB. I do something like this, in a small way, by processing the AC3 sound file with BeSweet.

steptoe

1st March 2008, 05:07

I've thought about just that once the price comes down to an acceptable level and media prices drop accordingly but DVD media was very high to start with, compared to just 6 months ago burners have prices dropped very steeply the more manufacturers take up selling and producing them

If you have them on DVD already and want to create them onto blue-ray with a menu, I think thats beyond DVD-RB and so authoring software would be the next choice that supports blue-ray, which at present is not cheap for decent blue ray support, and for the moment blue-ray support has been removed from ulead moviefactory 5

Basically it would be a case of importing the titles into the blue-ray software and create your menu, there should be zero quality loss as you're just adding a menu and creating a blue-ray disc

rack04

1st March 2008, 05:19

What would you gain from converting to blue-ray?

Video Dude

1st March 2008, 07:13

Does Blu-Ray support the DVD elementary mpeg-2 video stream?

Wishbringer

1st March 2008, 10:29

It's not an answer to first question in its's origins, but maybe it helps abit:

I have same dvd's (film on two dvd's splitted like LotR EE) and several series.
Put them on harddisk, joined them with shrink, nero recode and so on (without further compression).
Created one mpg-stream and converted that to an x264 m2ts stream with megui, ripbot or similar.
Converted that to blu-ray structure with tsremux 0.20 and burned with udf 2.5 onto dvd.

With --crf 18 (compression settings for mpeg4 AVC - qualitywise nearly transparent) I can put all three LotR EEs onto one DVD9
I can put all 13 episodes of "Elfenlied" and extras onto one DVD5 (still not full)

And it's recognized by my blu-ray player as BD-Disk (PS3) and plays fine.

Putting films onto BD-Media is still abit expensive. In europe a 25GB BD-R costs 12 Euro, a 50GB BD-RE costs 40 Euro (differs in countries).
And there is no low cost menu creation/ autoring tool for BD to put some nice menues onto disk to select films.

jdobbs

1st March 2008, 14:42

That's interesting. So a blu-ray player (at least the PS3) will recognize and play H.264 from a standard DVD as long as it's in a blu-ray structure?

Now that's something that may be worth looking into more deeply, if for no other reason than the high-quality you can get at lower bitrates in AVC. Do you have any idea whether other (standalone) blu-ray players will play them?

Do you keep the original resolution (720x480/576)?

Fishman0919

1st March 2008, 15:29

I have done this with HD-DVD and BluRay movies. Down convert them from 1080p to 720p with keeping the 648k DD track sizing to fit DVD-R and played them on my PS3

jdobbs

1st March 2008, 17:41

Will they play on anything other than a PS3?

Fishman0919

1st March 2008, 22:24

not sure.... I have a few friend from work with BluRay Standalones... when I get back from VACA I can ask them to try it.

m1ckran

3rd March 2008, 10:39

Thanks for the replies.

I was wondering if a BR disc could be used as a kind of extended DVD without having high definition content. Although it appears to be possible, perhaps that's not such a good idea.

An alternative might be to set up a PC as a home-cinema server and run everything from the hard drive using a remote control.

Still not sure what I should do but there's no panic. I'll wait and see what turns up.

Thanks again.

jdobbs

3rd March 2008, 13:03

Actually from the research I've done over the last couple of days (not extensive by any means), it appears most players should support HD on standard DVDs in support of AVCHD and should also support SD on BD. While the BluRay discs are expensive today -- you're bound to see the price drop now that the format war is over. In fact a couple of the Taiwan based large-scale manufacturers are getting into them more deeply now.

m1ckran

3rd March 2008, 18:39

Thanks dobbsie. Something for the future, then. I'll keep a close watch on your DVDRB enhancements.

Just a thought:- I wonder how reliable BR-R discs might be, especially considering the volume of data that could be recorded on them. One duff sector could, I imagine, wreck an entire programme and be potentially more troublesome than DVD with its more limited storage.

And thanks for your continued development of DVDRB. I don't understand much of the theory or the implications of many of the technical terms, but I find that DVDRB is now better than ever. Despite its faults I was a fan of AutoQMatEnc (running through DVDRB) but, using bitrate distribution and HcEnc, I gain far superior results with none of the "edginess" of AQE.
Well done.

jdobbs

3rd March 2008, 19:54

I'm going to do more research. I'd like to put a capability to create BluRay discs that hold multiple DVD (SD) movies. I'd also like to see if it's possible to get an entire HD movie on a DVD-9 using H.264 (AVCHD) with any decent quality.

jikchung

3rd March 2008, 20:34

jdobbs

6th March 2008, 18:18

Boulder

7th March 2008, 12:00

This thread (and tool) might interest you and others interested in the idea: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=131782

~bT~

7th March 2008, 12:55

if BD accepts SD material, then i think DVDRemakePro should work.

@ JD

its poss to put a HD movie on DVD9.

jdobbs

7th March 2008, 15:40

I did some testing and using TSREMUX I found it very easy to create a AVCHD disc. I just encode at an HD resolution (1920x1080 or 1280x720) in H.264 and AC3 with FFMPEG using .TS as the output container. TSREMUX accepts that without problem and outputs it to a AVCHD folder (creating an m2ts stream). I burn that folder to a DVD+R using ImgBurn in UDF 2.50 format... and my Sony BD player recognizes it immediately as AVCHD and plays it.

Cool. It even has 5 minute chapter marks.

~bT~

7th March 2008, 16:06

^ i think this is the guide: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134402

Socio

9th March 2008, 00:28

I have been thinking about this as well but I want to take a DVD'd process them with avisynth filters, resize them to 1920x1080 and burn them to Blu-Ray as a custom up convert.

I am sure with proper processing the custom 1080i/p up converts would look much better than any up conversion done by an HD player or scaler.

As soon as Blu-Ray burners and media drop to a reasonable price I for one plan to experiment with this for sure.

jdobbs

9th March 2008, 01:47

I did that earlier today. It looks quite good. I also upconverted to 1280 x 720 and at that resolution it looks like I can easily get a 2 hour movie onto a DVD-5 using AVC.

~bT~

9th March 2008, 04:09

^ what resizer did u use mate?

maybe u can post the script as a sample for others to try this out too?

jdobbs

9th March 2008, 16:17

Lanczos.

jdobbs

10th March 2008, 04:16

Just did a full backup of one of my BluRay discs as a test. I used FFMPEG to reencode to 1280x720 and used NicAudio() to convert to 2 channel AC3. I then used TsRemux to convert and format into AVCHD and burned to DVD-5. The movie was 2 hrs and 5 min. long and, man, it looks great when I play it back on my Sony standalone BluRay player. In fact, it looks so good I think I can just keep the 6 channel audio rather than downconverting. I may even try a 1920x1024 encode.

It is simply amazing what H.264 can do at a 4.9Mbs encoding rate. This concept has a lot of potential. Lot's of time involved, though, kinda' where DVD backups were a couple of years back.

CupCak3

10th March 2008, 04:53

i've been following this thread for a while...

jdobbs: That's great your tests came out so well! Is there any chance of a BR --> 720 or 1080 recode on dvd5/9 into rebuilder (or even a new tool)?

To be honest, I would probably donate again if these features would ever be implemented (especially with the additional dev time it would take you)

Sharc

10th March 2008, 06:58

......To be honest, I would probably donate again if these features would ever be implemented (especially with the additional dev time it would take you)
Same here :)
Could the same process/technology also be used to deliver higher quality backups of standard DVD-9s => DVD-5, compared to the current method?

Adub

10th March 2008, 07:37

Same here :)
Could the same process/technology also be used to deliver higher quality backups of standard DVD-9s => DVD-5, compared to the current method?

Only if played in a AVC compatible player, such as a blu-ray standalone.

jdobbs

10th March 2008, 11:35

Exactly. But eventually everyone will have a BluRay player (as it is the new standard) and it is my belief that AVCHD will be available on all of them as some point. It's the only real option available for HD home video recording/playback using any equipment other than the camera itself.

I think that the processing of a high-quality resizer like LanczosResize() will give you a better HD (simulated) picture than standard on-the-fly HD upscaling. In fact, you can do most of that now (all but the final authoring/burn associated with tsremux and ImgBurn) with the MOBILE function of DVD-RB. I'll probably add a preset for doing that to the next release.

~bT~

10th March 2008, 14:19

Same here :)
Could the same process/technology also be used to deliver higher quality backups of standard DVD-9s => DVD-5, compared to the current method?

this would be so awesome. also, doing backups of BD to DVD-5/9 is such a money saver!

Fishman0919

10th March 2008, 14:40

The movie was 2 hrs and 5 min. long and, man, it looks great when I play it back on my Sony standalone BluRay player. In fact, it looks so good I think I can just keep the 6 channel audio rather than downconverting. I may even try a 1920x1024 encode.

The movies I did I kept the DD 5.1.... not much of a diff in quality that I could see.

The few I did at 1080 keeping the DD 5.1 (to me) seemed a little lower in quality but still looking good.

Video Dude

11th March 2008, 01:55

jdobbs, did you make a 720x480 AVCHD disc to see if it is compatible with your Sony player?

I thinking this would be a good option to backup a 4 disc TV set to a DVD-5 or a 6 disc set to DVD-9.

AVCHD Specification Chart:
http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html

jdobbs

11th March 2008, 02:26

Yes, but it always plays back in 4:3 -- not sure why. So a 16:9 original looks stretched vertically and has black boxes on either side. According to the standard (from AVCHD.COM) you should be able to do 16:9 at 720x480. I tried setting the aspect in FFMPEG and it seems to have no effect. I also noticed that the aspect listed for the original H.264 streams from BluRay seems to be set for 1:1 (as it should be for HD resolutions). It may be possible that the aspect ratio is set in one of the other BD files generated by TSRemux and I don't know what it is -- but that's really speculation.

archaeo

20th March 2008, 04:03

Now that BD+ appears to be cracked
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=136035&page=3

I wonder what possibilities might now lie ahead for DVDRB and BluRay....

blutach

20th March 2008, 05:30

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1114668#post1114668

archaeo

20th March 2008, 14:36

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1114668#post1114668

@blutach,

fyi that's the same link :)

RickA

23rd March 2008, 15:08

jdobbs I'm really pleased to see you taking an interest in h264 and hopefully the potential it can add to your already great program DVD-RB. Big fan and supporter of yours for a long time. I would gladly donate again if you integrated, or even started a new program. The idea of potentially being able to backup up a BD movie onto a DVD-5/9 is very exciting.

Not to swerve off topic or if you are even interested.. In another thread omion is working on h264 networked encoding. I'm a programing newb and have no clue how difficult network encoding for a home LAN setup would be for DVD-RB. I do recall a few threads mentioning it in the past. The idea of network encoding h264 with DVD-RB is almost enough to make me drool. :-)

Cheers,
Rick

Sharc

24th March 2008, 01:18

Another experiment:
I encoded a difficult scene with 2400 kbps using h.264, leaving the resolution untouched (720x576). In order to play it back on my DVD standalone I re-encoded the h.264 file to mpeg2 at the same bitrate i.e. keeping the file size. Despite the re-encoding h.264 -> mpeg2 the quality looked better compared to directly encoding the original to 2400 kbps using the mpeg2 encoder (2-pass VBR).

jdobbs

24th March 2008, 02:55

That means there was some smoothing in the first encode, you could probably get the same thing with filters.

Sharc

24th March 2008, 08:31

The original intention was to put two 2-hours movies onto a single DVD5 in "acceptable" quality - means to me no blocks at the expense of some details. Maybe strong filtering would achieve similar results as you mention. At the other hand I found that my mpeg2 => h.264 => mpeg2 approach has some optimization potential regarding the level of compression applied in the h.264 encoding pass. Anyway, as the future will bring more affordable BD players the second step (re-encoding back to mpeg2) will become obsolete.

jdobbs

24th March 2008, 13:29

I guess what I'm saying is that the second MPEG-2 pass can't really benefit from the h.264 pass (except maybe in its filtering). It isn't compressing the h.264 data, it is compressing the rendered image pulled from h.264. So it really looks more like this:

mpeg-2->raw picture->h.264->raw picture->mpeg-2

I will say, though, that I did an AVCHD encode of a DVD yesterday (MPEG-2->raw picture->h.264) and wrote it to a DVD-5 (movie-only, of course). The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting. It definitely is slower than what many of us are used to, though.

BTW, just did a couple more backups of BD over the weekend. It really looks good. I did them at 1280x720 in h.264 with DD 5.1 @ 448Kbs. It looks fantastic on a DVD-5. Each one took 9 hours (for 2 passes) on my quad-core Phenom 9500 system, though.

ron spencer

24th March 2008, 14:22

that sounds cool....9 hours is not so back....just an "overnighter"

Sharc

24th March 2008, 16:04

.... The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting.....
Cool. I continue watching the price development of BluRay standalones ...

jdobbs

24th March 2008, 17:52

Got mine (Sony BDP-S301) for $377 at Sam's Club.

Boulder

24th March 2008, 17:57

Or get a PS3 and you'll get a Blu-Ray player and some other entertainment too :)

Provided the bitrate is high enough (for example one DVD for one movie), x264 should be able to retain the original grain which makes it look very good..Sharc's observation with his x264->MPEG2 probably was due to the fact that x264 tends to lose the grain at lower bitrates, and then this provides very good compressibility when re-encoding to MPEG2, not to mention the standard deblocking feature x264 utilizes.

jikchung

24th March 2008, 19:03

Got mine (Sony BDP-S301) for $377 at Sam's Club.

I lucked into one from Amazon in December - $200 + 10 free titles.

~bT~

24th March 2008, 19:17

I lucked into one from Amazon in December - $200 + 10 free titles.
u must be on about hd-dvd players.

Sharc

24th March 2008, 20:13

Once we have the movie from a DVD or BD re-encoded in h.264/mp4 format it should also produce nice results when playing it back with MPC or VLC on a HD-projector, isn't it?

Boulder

24th March 2008, 20:18

Yep :)

jikchung

24th March 2008, 21:11

u must be on about hd-dvd players.
No, Sony Blu-Ray - had Spiderman 3 in the box. They had a similar special on the Toshiba HD-DVD players too.

~bT~

25th March 2008, 00:24

^ wow! that is so cheap. it would cost us £250 in the UK which is $500 :(

jikchung

25th March 2008, 00:44

Yeah, they're back up to $400 over here and no deals on free discs since HD-DVD is gone.

blutach

25th March 2008, 00:57

Yeah, they're back up to $400 over here and no deals on free discs since HD-DVD is gone.
Now, that's a surprise!

Regards

Wombler

25th March 2008, 18:16

Each one took 9 hours (for 2 passes) on my quad-core Phenom 9500 system, though.

That's not too bad though considering the amount of data involved.

Wombler

Rectal Prolapse

25th March 2008, 22:32

To the OP: Should be easier now that Blu-ray burners are cheaper now ($350 for the LG GGW-H20L burner and combo reader in some places).

Also, PS3 has been updated to allow playback of the LTH BD-Rs developed by Panasonic - so BD-R media should be very cheap soon (under $8 is my guess - someone mentioned they are available at that price (not discounted yet) but I haven't seen them yet - but who knows?).

Lorax2161

26th March 2008, 05:09

I will say, though, that I did an AVCHD encode of a DVD yesterday (MPEG-2->raw picture->h.264) and wrote it to a DVD-5 (movie-only, of course). The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting. It definitely is slower than what many of us are used to, though.

This is very impressive. May I ask the specs of your TV that you view them on?

Many of us have TVs of modest size, and a lot of encodes that look good on our sets may fall apart visually on a display with better resolution. If you have a great TV and they look good on yours, that tells me a lot.

I'll throw in a vote for h.264's inclusion into DVD Rebuilder as well. What an amazing program that would be. Maybe all of our SD DVDs won't end up at yard sales after all. :)

Thanks.

jobe228

26th March 2008, 08:14

I've been watching this thread with interest now. I still have lots of blank DVDR and DVD9's so HD backup would be awesome if automated within DVD-RB.

rudolfo2

26th March 2008, 10:28

jdobbs

26th March 2008, 11:39

This is very impressive. May I ask the specs of your TV that you view them on?

Many of us have TVs of modest size, and a lot of encodes that look good on our sets may fall apart visually on a display with better resolution. If you have a great TV and they look good on yours, that tells me a lot.

I'll throw in a vote for h.264's inclusion into DVD Rebuilder as well. What an amazing program that would be. Maybe all of our SD DVDs won't end up at yard sales after all. :)

Thanks. I play back on a 52" Sony LCD monitor via HDMI connections. It has native 1920x1080 resolution.

TheBreen

27th March 2008, 01:18

This sounds exciting! I am just catching up with the world of HD, so please tell me if I have this right. DVD-RB might in future be able to take a full BR rip and compress it to a DVD9 for example, which would result in video quality superior to a DVD9 commercial release? And this high-quality copy would play in a stand-alone BR player or HTPC with BR reader.

I take it DVD-RB would require a standard BR video format? Or is there some possibility of converting MKV files or even HD-DVD format to compressed BR-format-on-DVD?

Sharc

27th March 2008, 07:54

..... I will say, though, that I did an AVCHD encode of a DVD yesterday (MPEG-2->raw picture->h.264) and wrote it to a DVD-5 (movie-only, of course). The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting. It definitely is slower than what many of us are used to, though.

BTW, just did a couple more backups of BD over the weekend. It really looks good. I did them at 1280x720 in h.264 with DD 5.1 @ 448Kbs. It looks fantastic on a DVD-5. Each one took 9 hours (for 2 passes) on my quad-core Phenom 9500 system, though.

What about doing the same - i.e. DVD movie backups and BD novie backups onto DVD5/9 - using XviD encoder instead of H.264 AVCHD? Would the results be similar, or is it expected to be much inferior? Would the resolution have to be kept to 720*480/576, or would upsizing (720p) for DVD's also be an option?
I am asking because most (low cost) DVD standalone players can playback XviD files today.

Boulder

27th March 2008, 08:03

AFAIK, standalones don't support XviD's advanced features much..for example custom quantization matrices cause problems. The standalone-compatible profile is quite limited.

See the hardware players section, I think there's a good amount of information there.

jdobbs

27th March 2008, 10:06

XviD just doesn't deliver the same quality at the same bitrate as H.264. It does significantly better than MPEG-2 -- but not as well as AVC. Also, XviD wouldn't be able to playback HD, and it isn't compatible with BluRay players (at least none that I've seen).

~bT~

27th March 2008, 12:44

What about doing the same - i.e. DVD movie backups and BD novie backups onto DVD5/9 - using XviD encoder instead of H.264 AVCHD? Would the results be similar, or is it expected to be much inferior? Would the resolution have to be kept to 720*480/576, or would upsizing (720p) for DVD's also be an option?
I am asking because most (low cost) DVD standalone players can playback XviD files today.
that would be a disaster IMO.

Sharc

27th March 2008, 21:38

Thanks for the comments. Apparently main problem with XviD is the missing standards which put compatibility with different DVD standalones at risk.

laserfan

28th March 2008, 15:22

Also, XviD wouldn't be able to playback HDNot sure what you mean by this. I can convert 1920x1080p high-bitrate programs to 720p HD Xvid and play them back on my Sigma Designs HD media player (over my network). The only way to tell the conversion from the original is in a side-by-side comparison.

jdobbs

28th March 2008, 16:51

The discussion was about playback on a standalone player. See the two posts just before mine.

laserfan

28th March 2008, 17:11

The discussion was about playback on a standalone player.Ah, you meant a DVD player. NM!

jdobbs

8th April 2008, 00:45

In testing I've done a number of these now. I backup to DVD-5 using 1280x720 and AC3 @448Kbs. I also have done a group of them at 1920x1080 on DVD-9 with the AC3@640Kbs (typical for Blu-Ray).

They look really, really good. Not just "ok" -- but to my eyes they are pretty much lossless reproductions of the original. Interestingly... even through my 52" LCD display has a native resolution of 1920x1080... I really can't tell the difference in sound or video between the two (DVD-5 and DVD-9) formats.

Wombler

8th April 2008, 08:40

Fishman0919

8th April 2008, 12:20

My copy of "I Am Legend" from BluRay onto a DVD5 at 720p with 640K AC3 looks, to me, as good as the Org. Really no need, right now, to buy Blank BluRay discs.... DVD5 and DVD9 work just fine.

jdobbs

8th April 2008, 12:22

I think it's the incredible efficiency of the h.264 codec. I've been using X264 to create the video. I feed it an AVS file that uses DirectShowSource() -- and have the FFDSHOW pack installed (with MPEG-2 decoding enabled) so it covers the source formats. In case anyone else wants to try it, here are the tools I've been using for testing:

1. TSMuxer -- to extract the audio when I'm reencoding it. (sometimes I'll use FFMPEG to reencode from 640Kbs AC3 5.1 to 448Kbs AC3 5.1). TSMuxer can also convert DTS-HD and AC3-HD to "standard" types during the demux.
2. BDEdit -- Most discs contain a single M2TS stream that contains the entire movie. But some (e.g. discs with more than one version like theatrical and special) use multiple stream files. BDEdit identifies file that are linked together to make one "version". TSMuxer can then be used to append them together.
3. X264 to reencode the video.
4. TSMuxer -- to remux the new video with the audio and create a "Blu-ray" folder.
5. ImgBurn -- to burn to UDF 2.5 format on either DVD+-R DVD-5 or DVD-9.

You can also just use RIPBOT264 and it will do all the work for you on most discs. I like to have control, though, so I do it mostly by hand.

To playback, I simply insert the disc into my Sony standalone. It sees the disc as "AVCHD" and plays back in high-def.

As I watch I simply marvel at the quality. I honestly thought it would be harder than this. My opinion based upon what I have seen is that it is a myth that huge "blu-ray disc sizes" are required for decent high-def. The increased efficiency of the h.264 codec is alone enough to compress HD to DVD sizes.

Of course there is still that "it takes a long time to encode" issue. I've gotten the time down a little on my quad-core Phenom machine -- but it still is an overnight task. It can also have a very heavy disc requirement. It's not unusual for the original disc to take up 40GB on you hard drive, and during processing you may sometimes need 60GB or more. Also, currently "movie-only" HD backups are the only kind I've attempted.

Sharc

8th April 2008, 12:28

Fishman0919

8th April 2008, 12:34

huge "blu-ray disc sizes" are required for decent high-def.

Well... with the large BluRay disc size... you could fit several excellent quality 720p HD movies on 1 disc.

A 25gb blank should yield 5 movies.

jdobbs

8th April 2008, 12:37

Your test results are about backup of standard DVDs using h264/AVCHD onto DVD5 or backup of Blu-Ray onto DVD5/9? In the last couple of posts I've been talking about backing up Blu-ray originals to DVD+-R. I've done h.264 backups of DVDs as well, though. I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR-based ratios to correct playback. I never got it to work with FFMPEG.EXE, though. I'd love to find out how that's done. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original. In fact, you could probably fit 2-3 of them on a DVD-5 with near-perfect reproduction -- but I don't know how to do that yet (so you could select them) with the tools I currently have available and haven't tested it.

I've also done some up-scaling of DVDs to 1280x720 from the original 720x480...

Fishman0919

8th April 2008, 12:43

In the last couple of posts I've been talking about backing up Blu-ray originals to DVD+-R. I've done h.264 backups of DVDs as well, though. I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR ratios to correct playback. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original. In fact, you could probably fit 2-3 of them on a DVD-5 with near-perfect reproduction -- but I don't know how to do that yet (so you could select them) with the tools I currently have available.

Have you tried fitting a single DVD onto a CD-R... that was my next project.... I'am away from home now and a bit busy with work.

Probably have to convert the audio to 2 ch... or just use the 2 ch AC3.

jdobbs

8th April 2008, 12:51

Hmmm. I guess it would be a good academic test -- but with DVD+R discs as cheap as they are, I'm not sure there's a lot of advantage. I'll run one through today for the hell of it. It would be interesting to know if the player recognizes the AVCHD format on CD-R...

Fishman0919

8th April 2008, 13:00

Sharc

8th April 2008, 13:02

I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR-based ratios to correct playback. I never got it to work with FFMPEG.EXE, though. I'd love to find out how that's done. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original............
I've also done some up-scaling of DVDs to 1280x720 from the original 720x480...
Hmmm, would it be possible to include the x264 encoder in DVD-RB plus suitable profiles in the MOBILE section for DVD movie backups?

jdobbs

8th April 2008, 14:08

You may have noticed I included an experimental profile that does 1280x720 up-converting for AVCHD in the 1.27.3 release (under the MOBILE profiles). It uses FFMPEG to encode. You may want to try it. You'd just have to, then, use TSMuxer to bring the video/audio into the right format (the audio file is already demuxed and exists in the D2VAVS directory, or you could use the 2 channel reencode that is output into the TS file of the profile) and output to Blu-ray format.

It's my intent to include X264 in either the next release or the one after that for that purpose.

Sharc

8th April 2008, 15:55

:thanks:

duramaximus

10th April 2008, 01:12

Video Dude

10th April 2008, 02:24

Is there subtitle support in AVCHD?

jdobbs

10th April 2008, 11:06

I believe so, but I haven't tested it.

rudolfo2

10th April 2008, 16:46

Is backup of the Blu-ray DVD really necessary ?? Blu-Ray DVD is protected with coating to last at least 30 years ( according to Sony ).I would concentrate on transfer of current standard movies to Blu-Ray.To go from seven racks ( 200 titles each ) to just one or two on Blu-Ray media would be for me fantastic, I wouldn't ask for more.

blutach

10th April 2008, 16:57

Sorry, I don't believe people who put rootkits on CDs and pirate software from small s/w houses while closing down people who try to help you back up your legally purchased material.

Regards

jdobbs

10th April 2008, 17:06

There's also the other uses that are prevented (like Linux compatibility, simpler software players, editing, etc.) Also... have you played any of these commercial BD discs on your standalone BD player? The start up time can sometimes be several minutes -- while you stare aimlessly at the "loading..." screen. I can put an AVCHD disc into my player and it starts immediately.

It's all about giving the people what they want -- not forcing them to take what you want them to have.

I also like the idea of adding multiple DVD titles to a single BD... but the price is going to have to come down a lot (as I'm sure it will) before it's justified economically. Right now it costs $25.00 to get the same space as $3.00 in DVD+R discs.

rudolfo2

10th April 2008, 17:58

I just found at newegg.com 25x cake ( Blu-Ray-R ) for $ 199,00, that's $ 8 a piece.Quality is ?? here, but it's a start.

cdanddvdpublisher

12th April 2008, 07:00

I just found at newegg.com 25x cake ( Blu-Ray-R ) for $ 199,00, that's $ 8 a piece.Quality is ?? here, but it's a start.

Well, as long as its not horrible quality, how can you go wrong with that price?!

steptoe

13th April 2008, 08:24

So if you're adding some support for Blue-Ray to DVD, does this mean there is a slim possibility of adding the support to accept AVI files to DVD

Time to donate some more again I think as a lot of people are very interested in this idea of Blue-Ray to DVD

Sharc

13th April 2008, 09:22

I backed up the movie from a standard DVD onto DVD5 using x264 and upscaling to 720p. Average bitrate 2200 kbps. Quality is very good, on my old system (P4 2.5G) it took 28 hours to complete the job => Time to investigate the quality of single pass encoding with x264 for comparison....

jdobbs

13th April 2008, 11:41

Hehe... no kidding. Actually I have a little app I put together for doing that. But I haven't used it much. You can also change the first pass to make it a lot faster and still keep the quality of the second pass.

x264 has great quality -- but all the extra processing that makes it so much more efficient also takes a lot of cpu... it's about like MPEG-2 encoding a few years ago.

Boulder

13th April 2008, 12:41

it took 28 hours to complete the job => Time to investigate the quality of single pass encoding with x264 for comparison....CRF at 18 is considered transparent by many.

Sharc

13th April 2008, 17:11

I made a short test clip of a difficult scene with CRF=29 which resulted in an average bitrate of about 2200 kbps - ie similar to the former 2-pass. The result was still amazingly good and not noticeably worse than the previous 2 pass encode.

jdobbs

13th April 2008, 17:46

I've noticed (at least in the limited testing I've done) that most of my CRF values for 1280x720 on DVD-5 come in between 18.5 and 21. I'm still running tests on 1920x1080 on DVD-9.

Sharc

17th April 2008, 23:13

Has anyone tried to playback anamorphic upscaled DVDs on BluRay standalones or on a PS3? On SW players it seems to work. Is "anamorphic" included in the BluRay standard?

jdobbs

18th April 2008, 02:30

Yes it is. But, I can tell you that if you are encoding it with x264 you have to set the aspect to some odd values because it is based on SAR. For example on a 720x480 source that you want to display (anamorphic) in 16:9 you have to set it to "--sar 32:27"

Here's a list I pulled from a table I found online:

720x480 (NTSC)
- 4:3 -> --sar 8:9
- 16:9 -> --sar 32:27

704x480 (NTSC Crop)
- 4:3 -> --sar 10:11
- 16:9 -> --sar 40:33

720x576 (PAL)
- 4:3 -> --sar 16:15
- 16:9 -> --sar 64:45

704x576 (PAL Crop)
- 4:3 -> --sar 12:11
- 16:9 -> --sar 16:11

Hope this helps. It was something I had to deal with when I started trying DVD conversions to Blu-ray.

Of course the 1280x720 and 1920x1080 conversions both have a sar of 1:1.

Sharc

18th April 2008, 06:12

Yes, I went through this painful experience with the SAR. Thank you for clarification. I assume the SAR is not specified / flagged in the original stream, i.e. one has to set it manually?

jdobbs

18th April 2008, 12:36

The aspect ratio of the source is the display aspect ratio and is either 16:9 or 4:3, in the source stream's sequence_header as well as the IFO. You have to be careful though, and use the aspect shown in the IFO. There were a few older 16:9 DVDs that had the aspect set to 4:3 in the stream and 16:9 in the IFO. The IFO drives the real output aspect ratio in DVD -- so use that one.

Since there are only two aspect ratios (4:3 and 16:9) in DVD and almost all DVDs are 720x480 or 720x576, it makes it a little easier.

Sharc

18th April 2008, 19:24

:thanks: for the explanations. Very clear now, helps to quit my trial-and-error attempts.

Sharc

19th April 2008, 16:48

I feel reasonably comfortable now with the DAR, SAR, PAR, cropping etc. Now the question: Would I eventually have to add black borders to fill the gap to the 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 respectively, after upscaling a standard DVD (cropped or uncropped) in order to comply with the BluRay standard and to ensure the playback on a Blu-Ray standalone?
I am asking because I have no Blu-Ray standalone yet to verify the results.

jdobbs

20th April 2008, 19:31

For 16:9 you definitely wouldn't. I haven't tried with 4:3. I would guess that it would be easiest to resize the output to 1:1 and add the borders -- unless you keep it 720x480/576. I could probably do a couple of encodes with the SAR set differently and see what happens. I think it will add the bars itself. Bars and top and bottom would generally remain the same when you upscale (from DVD).

Sharc

20th April 2008, 22:00

The necessity to add black bars may also depend on if we crop the bars of the DVD pictures before upscaling/encoding, or if we upscale/encode including the bars of the original anamorphic DVD - wasting some bits for encoding the black bars.
The SAR is not depending on the cropping, though.

~bT~

20th April 2008, 23:54

^ yes, you would need to add borders.

RickA

8th May 2008, 13:24

Greets,

Looks like the idea of putting HD content onto a SD DVD is spreading. Stumbled across a few guides on other sites. Glad to see the interest growing. :-)

http://www.elurauser.com/articles/avchd_to_bluray.jsp
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667462&page=1&pp=30
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146

Cheers,
Rick

mrchri5

16th May 2008, 01:10

Do you see AVCHD becoming a standard way to back up blu-ray discs until the prices for blank discs come down?

I tried ripbot a few times and had trouble getting the file size down to dvd-5. Also the program just stopped working during a pass.

I'm not very technical so I would gladly pay for a new version or add on to dvd rebuilder when it works reliably.

Will it ever be possible to do anything but movie only avchd discs?

thanks

jdobbs

16th May 2008, 02:27

Interestingly, I've noticed that the discs I've been creating lately with TSMuxer aren't detected as AVCHD. My standalone player sees them as BD-ROM. But to answer your question, yes. I think backing up HD to DVD-5 or DVD-9 discs that are formated for UDF 2.5 in BD format is going to be the way to go until Blu-ray blanks become affordable.

Since the player sees the discs as BD-ROM, that would seem to also imply that you could do backups or authoring other than movie-only (but I haven't tried).

Discoboy

16th May 2008, 10:02

Interestingly, I've noticed that the discs I've been creating lately with TSMuxer aren't detected as AVCHD. My standalone player sees them as BD-ROM.

I've noticed the same also with a Panasonic DMP-BD30.

For software DVD players PDVD 7 & 8 show BR-ROM, but the latest WinDVD does show as AVCHD!

jdobbs

16th May 2008, 12:35

Discoboy

19th May 2008, 12:23

Something has changed in the way it writes them, the ones I used to do (although I may have been using TSRemux instead) all were recognized as "AVCHD" on my Sony player -- but now all are seen as BD-ROM.

Hi jdobbs,

I am now not so sure this issue is to do with the latest version of "tsMuxeR" 1.8.4. I have not been using TSremux so maybe this is the reason for your problem? I am now only using tsMuxeR and all is well since I did the following below:

I have now done 2 things since my latest BD to AVCHD DVD-9 conversion projects:

1. Updated my stand-alone player Panasonic DMP-BD30 to the latest firmware 1.0 --> 1.3
2. Flashed my Pioneer DVR-215 burner with the latest modified firmware that now forces bitting set to DVD-ROM book type for DVD-5 (DVD+R) and DVD-9 (DVD+R DL) of burnt media (Verb's)

After the above, now my stand-alone player always displays the disc a "DVD" and shows it a AVCHD via on-screen play menu.

Hope this info is of help to you? :helpful:

Regards,
Discoboy

jdobbs

19th May 2008, 15:11

Actually it isn't a problem. I want it to seem them as BD-ROM.

Discoboy

19th May 2008, 15:34

OK then that’s OK for you then. :)
My Panasonic unit will only show BD if a bd-rom media disc is used and DVD if a dvd-rom disc is used. AVCHD will show up once play is pressed a dvd-rom disc is used.

atreides93

30th May 2008, 07:10

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but from what I've read, the blu ray standard supports both MPEG-2 and h.264 (mpeg4) encoding.
I guess what I don't get, is if newer movies are already encoded using H.264, then how are you achieving such a space savings by re-encoding them?
On wikipedia, they were saying that early BD movies were encoded with mpeg-2, so that would make sense...but newer ones are supposed to be using H.264 now.? or did they never change to it?

moviefan

30th May 2008, 09:49

Sure, many movie are encoded using H.264, but they waste bitrate all over the place (in my eyes just to justify the 50 GB disc space of a Blu-ray). With optimized settings, maybe pre-processing, good encoder settings, you can compress the movie a lot more at almost transparent quality. No one keeps you from encoding the same content at either e.g. 5 Mbps or at 25 Mbps...

jdobbs

31st May 2008, 00:33

Exactly. Just because you use the bitrate, that doesn't mean you needed it. This is a definite truism based upon what I've seen.

atreides93

31st May 2008, 03:54

This is pretty exciting. What I'd like to do is get a Blu-Ray Rom drive, then using ANYdvd, decrypt it whatever bluray movie I buy, re encode to a smaller size and then copy it to this little box. http://www.tvixbox.com/product_details.php?product_id=23

I already do this with an Mvix which handles standard DVD's fine. Its so convenient having all your movies in a portable box you can take with you when visiting the parents and leave all the disks at home.

rernst

16th June 2008, 05:50

Will they play on anything other than a PS3?

If you recode to H.264 (or keep them that way) they will play on any PC. You can play this on most media servers that support h.264.

jdobbs

16th June 2008, 13:02

If you recode to H.264 (or keep them that way) they will play on any PC. You can play this on most media servers that support h.264.
I was thinking more along the lines of standalone players.

atreides93

27th June 2008, 07:40

Jdobbs, was wondering if you're still actively working on adding support for backing up a BD to a DVD-5 or DVD-9 ?
I got a PS3 recently, and what I'd love to be able to do is copy my bluray movies to the hard disk on the ps3 and then take the ps3 to my folks house when I visit them.
I've googled how to convert bluray to mp4 (h.264 with aac audio) and every guide I've seen reminds me of the rather tedious and painful methods of backing up DVD's I used to do. I just don't have the same kind of free time like I used to back then :)

jarthel

30th June 2008, 06:18

is there a guide that uses dvd-rb that backup dvd to BD-like format (using blank dvds as medium)? I would like to resize the video to full HD just because we will be buying a 52in setup in the very near future.

ps. I know about upsampling dvd players but I'm hoping resizing it during the encode process would provide better results. :)

jdobbs

2nd July 2008, 18:53

atreides93

4th July 2008, 17:05

I picked up a BD-ROM drive and have been happily experimenting with backing up my only bluray disk which is 3:10 to Yuma. I'm using a method described in a blog : http://www.washabledryink.com/2008/04/blu-ray-to-mp4mkv-step-3/

Since my main goal is creating backups that I can copy to my PS3's hard drive and play in HD. The PS3 will play back mp4 files that are encoded with AVC H.264 for the video and AAC audio.

The only problem is that the encoding speed is incredibly slow even on my Athlon X2 64 4400. The 2nd pass is encoding between 2 or 3 fps. So should take around 24 hours for a single disk. OH well I don't have many blu ray's anyway (one so far)

jdobbs

4th July 2008, 21:59

There isn't a whole lot you can do about that. If you set X264 for high-quality on the second pass it is very CPU intensive. I have a quad processor and I only get about 6-7fps on the second pass -- with 100% CPU utilization on all four cores.

Lot's of work to do in H.264 encoding... it feels a lot like MPEG-2 encoding was a few years back.

But the quality sure is outstanding. I've been doing 1920x1080p encodings to single layer DVD on the last few discs, and it looks outstanding. I backed up my copy of Apocalypto yesterday. It's a fairly long movie with lots of movement and detail (in the jungle) -- and it looks really impressive. The people I show it to can't tell the difference from the original.

One thing I found that speeds it up a little was installing the CoreAVC codec. It's fairly cheap and decodes the original stream (for reencoding) quite fast. Of course that will only help on originals that are X264 (as opposed to MPEG-2 or VC-1)

Sharc

4th July 2008, 23:18

If you are out for speed you may want to try Xvid @ 1280 x720 single pass Q2 or Q3. Quality is very reasonable, however I don't know if it is compatible with PS3.

jdobbs

5th July 2008, 01:00

It's definitely not Blu-ray compatible, I'm not sure if the PS3 plays it.

Morbo

7th July 2008, 18:54

You all using deblock in your scripts?...if the source is direct BD,...no need for it IMHO....and it speeds up a bit.

Just my .02

rudolfo2

10th July 2008, 14:21

Anyone could comment on this Toshiba news:At the end of 2008 Toshiba will bring on the market SD DVD player equipped with much improved upscale chips so the BD will no longer be needed.The picture quality will be almost the same and the bigger catalog of old titles will make all the benefits.

jdobbs

10th July 2008, 15:19

[snicker] You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

jdobbs

10th July 2008, 15:20

You all using deblock in your scripts?...if the source is direct BD,...no need for it IMHO....and it speeds up a bit.

Just my .02 How do you turn it off? I know how to make is sharper (with negative values), but I'm not sure how you disable it.

Sophocles

12th July 2008, 21:19

'd also like to see if it's possible to get an entire HD movie on a DVD-9 using H.264 (AVCHD) with any decent quality.

I need to keep up with news but this is a long standing hope of mine. I suspect that a BR disc can be compressed using H/X/264 to a dual layer disc (size) with some obvious loss in in quality but still better than standard DVD. I've seen 1 hour compressions that are well under 5 gigabytes with very good quality in WMV (1080P).

rendez2k

12th July 2008, 21:47

I need to keep up with news but this is a long standing hope of mine. I suspect that a BR disc can be compressed using H/X/264 to a dual layer disc (size) with some obvious loss in in quality but still better than standard DVD. I've seen 1 hour compressions that are well under 5 gigabytes with very good quality in WMV (1080P).

Isn't this essentially what RipBot264 is doing? I compressed a blue ray movie to a dual layer and it looks great!

Sophocles

12th July 2008, 22:18

Isn't this essentially what RipBot264 is doing? I compressed a blue ray movie to a dual layer and it looks great!

What was the final file size? Can it be backed up to standard dual layer that can be made playable on a standalone? Just a thought.

I've been trying so many different ways of doing this and none of them seems to have the answer. Remember, before DVD burners hit the shelves we were all faced with compromises? If one wanted a standalone playable disc they had to transcode it to VCD for one disc or SVCD across several discs. The best backup choice was of course Xvid/DiVx which didn't play on either without a computer and a mouse click, but was far more efficient.

rendez2k

12th July 2008, 22:24

Sophocles

12th July 2008, 22:31

The disc is full. But its a blue ray structure on a dual layer DVD. All I can test it on is the PC and my PS3 - and it works great on both. Obviously some compression has had to be done but it looks great and is full 1080 resolution. I've only done one movie and haven't messed with the program much beyond that but I think it has other output options.

Cool! I use a PC for my disc playbacks anyway and use PowerDVD for playback so I should be fine. I'll give a try.

rendez2k

12th July 2008, 22:33

Be waned - it takes a very long time (even on my quad core!). jdobbs: don't let this put you off you're project - I'm looking forward to what ever you develop!

Sophocles

12th July 2008, 22:45

The disc is full. But its a blue ray structure on a dual layer DVD. All I can test it on is the PC and my PS3 - and it works great on both. Obviously some compression has had to be done but it looks great and is full 1080 resolution. I've only done one movie and haven't messed with the program much beyond that but I think it has other output options.

Not a problem I have only dual core PCs but I have one with an Opteron 170, 175, Intels' D945, E6600, E6700, and an E8400@3.84 GHz. All of them are quite overclocked and time is not a problem. Ripping it to the one used with a limited number of BR/HD drives is the problem. LOL

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 00:59

To add to what has been said: In fact because X264 (H.264/AVC) is so efficient -- you can back up an entire HD movie to a single layer disc with very high quality. Lately I've been doing all of my Blu-Ray movie-only backups to DVD-5.

Can you backup HD to DVD? I have a shelf full of 1920x1080p backups that say "yes".

Sophocles

13th July 2008, 01:37

jdobbs

So what you're saying is that there is a DVD RB HD version in the making?:P

Can you backup HD to DVD? I have a shelf full of 1920x1080p backups that say "yes".

I have shelves of less than desirable outcomes.

Hmm!. I have an unintentionally well constructed testing lab, and I'm always ready to experiment.

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 03:02

Yes in the making (BD Rebuilder), but not close to completion. My programming time has been pretty limited lately.

All you really need to create a good movie-only disc is FFDSHOW, HAALI Media Splitter, AVISYNTH, X264 and TSMUXER. You just create an AVISYNTH file that uses DirectShowSource() to read the original. Haali Media Splitter will handle the M2TS and FFDSHOW the playback. Then encode using X264 (I have a .BAT I can give you with settings that make the stream compliant). Use TSMUXER to demux any audio and subtitles you want, then use it again to mux the new video, audio, and subs into blu-ray format. You can then burn to DVD using ImgBurn set for UDF 2.50. Put it in a Blu-ray standalone and it will see/play it as a blu-ray disc. You can also play the resulting M2TS back on your PC if you want.

Sophocles

13th July 2008, 04:17

All you really need to create a good movie-only disc is FFDSHOW, HAALI Media Splitter, AVISYNTH, X264 and TSMUXER.

Thanks jd, I have them and moving forward.

My programming time has been pretty limited lately.

Sounds so much like when DVD burners first hit the shelves. Before that it was VCD/SVCD to have a playable standalone disc. I'll play for a while and see what turns up.:D

atreides93

13th July 2008, 05:23

These days I'm just converting to a m2ts file (muxed with TsMuxer) and so far they play great on my PS3. I was not successful in getting a bluray structure to play on my PS3 when burned to dvd-r though..but I suspect the problem is with my encoding somehow... That's interesting if ripbot produced something you could mux into a bluray structure and play it on a ps3.
honestly though, I don't care so much about that...I think in the future I'll either always use a ps3 like device which will play m2ts files..or a simple media player like a Tvix or Mvix which will play m2ts files as well I'm sure.
I am blown away by the quality of h.264....I never really liked my divx encodes...and the audio sync issues I always had were beyond annoying. So now that I have a nice and relatively simple way to back up the movies only I'm pretty damn happy right now :)

Groucho2004

13th July 2008, 09:51

I have a .BAT I can give you with settings that make the stream compliant

Could you please post your batch file here?

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 12:29

Groucho2004

13th July 2008, 13:06

Thanks a lot!

laserfan

13th July 2008, 18:29

...Use TSMUXER...to mux the new video, audio, and subs into blu-ray format. You can then burn to DVD using ImgBurn set for UDF 2.50. Put it in a Blu-ray standalone and it will see/play it as a blu-ray disc. You can also play the resulting M2TS back on your PC if you want.

These days I'm just converting to a m2ts file (muxed with TsMuxer) and so far they play great on my PS3. I was not successful in getting a bluray structure to play on my PS3 when burned to dvd-r though...
Is this true? That a simple movie.m2ts burned w/UDF2.50 will play on any BR standalone player? Without the BD structure?

For some reason I thought you had to have a BR burner (and of course BR recordable disc) to get an HD movie to play on a BR player??? :confused:

Boulder

13th July 2008, 18:31

Comments from any X264 experts out there who could improve the command lines are certainly welcome.I'm in no means an x264 expert, but from what I know, using --bframes 16 and --bpyramid is recommended. Also make sure you have an up-to-date x264 build which includes the adaptive quantization feature.

Sharc

13th July 2008, 20:12

--sar 1:1
Are BD native square pixel, or does the original picture need to be resized before encoding? Else --sar x:y to be set accordingly?

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 21:45

I'm in no means an x264 expert, but from what I know, using --bframes 16 and --bpyramid is recommended. Also make sure you have an up-to-date x264 build which includes the adaptive quantization feature.
Hmmm.... I was fairly certain that 3 was the maximum for b-frames. Maybe someone else will weigh in.

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 21:46

Is this true? That a simple movie.m2ts burned w/UDF2.50 will play on any BR standalone player? Without the BD structure?

For some reason I thought you had to have a BR burner (and of course BR recordable disc) to get an HD movie to play on a BR player??? :confused: No. That's not exactly what I said. If you use TSMUXER's blu-ray output it creates the BD file structure. You don't need a blu-ray disc, though. A DVD will work fine.

Boulder

13th July 2008, 22:07

Hmmm.... I was fairly certain that 3 was the maximum for b-frames. Maybe someone else will weigh in.16 B-frames is the maximum, and as you are using adaptive B-frames, x264 makes the decision of how many B-frames to actually use.

This is a nice pdf guide to many of the options: http://mulder.dummwiedeutsch.de/pub/x264/

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 22:21

16 B-frames is the maximum, and as you are using adaptive B-frames, x264 makes the decision of how many B-frames to actually use.

This is a nice pdf guide to many of the options: http://mulder.dummwiedeutsch.de/pub/x264/It will make the decision -- but not go over the max you set (or at least that was my understanding -- I've a ways to go before knowing all the X264 options completely).

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to add them and see how it looks... Do you know if there is a b-frame limit in AVCHD? I'm trying to remember where I saw that...

jdobbs

13th July 2008, 22:24

--sar 1:1
Are BD native square pixel, or does the original picture need to be resized before encoding? Else --sar x:y to be set accordingly? That's because 1920x1080 and 1280x720 are both naturally 16:9 (square). If you use a 720x480 source (moving a DVD video to BD format) you'd have to change the SAR to 32:27.

jdobbs

14th July 2008, 00:32

16 B-frames is the maximum, and as you are using adaptive B-frames, x264 makes the decision of how many B-frames to actually use.

This is a nice pdf guide to many of the options: http://mulder.dummwiedeutsch.de/pub/x264/ I just found in mewiki that although the X264 maximum is 16, you have to settle for less if doing HD-DVD or Blu-ray. But it didn't give a limit. I know I saw 3 somewhere -- and all the examples I find online are set to 3... still researching.

Sharc

14th July 2008, 06:11

That's because 1920x1080 and 1280x720 are both naturally 16:9 (square)......
Yes, but the movie picture is often not 16:9. An 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 movie for example may be stored either
a) letterboxed (with top and bottom borders), or
b) horizontally squeezed (anamorphic).
In case a) sar is 1:1 as I understand
In case b) however the pixel aspect ratio will not be 1:1 and needs to be signalled as sar x:y for correct playback as I understand. Is the pixel aspect ratio standardized for anamorpic BD similar to PAL or NTSC DVDs, or does case b) for BD sources not exist at all?

jdobbs

14th July 2008, 10:07

laserfan

14th July 2008, 15:37

...If you use TSMUXER's blu-ray output it creates the BD file structure. You don't need a blu-ray disc, though. A DVD will work fine.You did say "blu-ray format" out of tsmuxer so I was being dense.

I did NOT know an ordinary DVD was useable! Thanks... :o

Yes in the making (BD Rebuilder), but not close to completion. My programming time has been pretty limited lately.Though you might well not wish to commit yourself in this way, perhaps you should start a "Contribute to future BD Rebuilder" fund. At least it might attract some beer money! :)

Sharc

14th July 2008, 18:54

If you are reading it from a Blu-ray disc it has to be one of those resolutions -- meaning it is in reality 16:9 that is encapsulating the other resolution with black bars (letterboxed). Every disc I have seen is 16:9. Kinda the same rule as DVD (which only supports 4:3 and 16:9).
All right, the sar should then always be 1:1 when re-encoding BD originals to AVC/H.264.
For reference I attach the table from the 11/2007 edition of the ITU-T H.264 standard. It indicates the SAR for other standard resolutions (DVD, SVCD, for PAL and NTSC ....) which may be good to know for feeding the x264 encoder with the appropriate --sar parameters when re-encoding other formats to AVC/H.264 - see title of this thread.
(The full H.264 standard can be downloaded from the ITU-T at no charge still).

jdobbs

15th July 2008, 01:50

Gotta be careful, though. A lot of the resolutions shown there are illegal... for both DVD and BD.

Interesting that the table doesn't have 720x480/576, 16:9 without overscan... that's probably the most common NTSC/PAL DVD configuration.

Sharc

15th July 2008, 06:23

I see.
So you mean *without overscan* the 'generic' values should apply, i.e.
NTSC DVD 4:3 720x480 => sar 8:9
NTSC DVD 16:9 720x480 => sar 32:27
PAL DVD 4:3 720x576 => sar 16:15
PAL DVD 16:9 720x576 => sar 64:45

How the the DVD has actually been authored can in fact only be read from the header of the stream - if it is specified there at all - correct?

jdobbs

15th July 2008, 13:27

Sophocles

16th July 2008, 01:46

Though you might well not wish to commit yourself in this way, perhaps you should start a "Contribute to future BD Rebuilder" fund. At least it might attract some beer money!

You know I'll play and test.:D

I''ve just ordered a couple of Blu RAy discs to play with. I suspect this will give me a reason to upgrade to a decent Quad core Nehalem.

Sharc

16th July 2008, 06:18

Yes. But on a DVD the final decision as to whether it is displayed 16:9 or 4:3 is made based upon the IFO information. There are discs out there that are flagged as 4:3 in the stream but are actually 16:9 anamorphic -- and the IFO tells the player to play them back correctly.
This still seems to leave some room for speculation as to whether a 16:9 720x576 PAL DVD (read from the ifo) was mastered 'with horizontal overscan' (sar=16:11) or 'without horizontal overscan' (sar=64:45). Perhaps the discussion is somewhat academic because the two figures match closely (16:11=1.455 vs 64:45=1.422) and in case we decide for the wrong sar the remaining distortion will hardly be noticeable. But still, is there a safe way to pick the true sar (par) from somewhere - except from a "circle test" which may be difficult to do in practice?
The problem seems to be similar to the colorimetry discussion when the colorimetry is not specified in the stream and one has to make an assumption.

rack04

22nd July 2008, 17:55

Is there anything simialr to TSMUXER that will output to HD DVD format? Just wondering if this process could also apply to HD DVD.

jdobbs

22nd July 2008, 19:53

rack04

27th July 2008, 15:01

Comments from any X264 experts out there who could improve the command lines are certainly welcome.

Here are the settings used in the "Standalone-Blue-ray" profile created by sharktooth for MeGUI:

program --pass 2 --bitrate 8000 --stats ".stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --filter -1,-1 --subme 6 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 38000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1

shon3i

28th July 2008, 08:27

Sharktooth's profile are just fine, only thing i will change is --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 38000 to --vbv-bufsize 50000 --vbv-maxrate 62000, that is max for level 4.1 and HP from Annex A of H264 specification.

jdobbs

28th July 2008, 11:09

Those settings are fine if you are writing to BD-RE or BD-R.

But, you can't set the "--vbv-maxrate" that high if you are going to write to DVD-R or DVD+R, because you are limited to configuring for no more than 2X, as shown in my example a good value would be "--vbv-maxrate 17500" that would give you reasonable room to add in audio and subs (as long as you aren't planning on using LPCM).

You also have to adjust the "--bitrate" value based upon whatever will fit... it isn't likely that 8000 will ever fit an entire movie on a DVD (except maybe a short movie on a dual-layer). Like I said, the settings I posted have successfully backed up a lot of BDs to Blu-ray already...

It's optional, but I'd leave "--trellis 1" set as well, it slows the encode down, but you need to take advantage of all you can at DVD bitrates.

I'd recommend you use different command sets for pass 1 and pass 2 as my post showed. The first pass doesn't need a lot of the "slower but higher quality" settings because you are going to rewrite the H.264 file in the second pass anyway -- it will probably save you a few hours of encoding time and not affect quality at all.

rack04

28th July 2008, 13:25

cdanddvdpublisher

28th July 2008, 16:41

There's another program called TSREMUX that also outputs to Blu-ray format -- I think I saw something similar that supports HD-DVD somewhere before, but I can't remember what it was or where. By the way, the source code is available for TSREMUX under GPL, so if someone has a programming background it could probably be modified to do other things.

Little late to this discussion - TSREMUX is quite handy and fairly good with it's Blu-ray output. I don't know if I would recommend for your situation though.

Wombler

28th July 2008, 22:05

I've followed this thread with great interest but have noticed that the thrust of it has altered dramatically since the first few posts and in fact it now focuses mainly on the exact opposite of the thread title.

It's confusing for anyone scanning the threads and anyone searching for Blu-ray to DVD would think they'd found the opposite and ignore the result.

Perhaps it would be in order for a mod to change the thread title to 'DVD backup to Blu-Ray and Blu-Ray backup to DVD' or something similar?

Wombler

m1ckran

29th July 2008, 11:55

Wombler

29th July 2008, 14:43

I quite like it as it is.
It's interesting to see the way the thread has developed and I look forward to seeing the results provided in a way that simpletons, like me, can use and perhaps understand.

Michael

I realise this is your thread Michael but irrespective of this I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said there anyway.

I just think it would be better if the people that need this information could find it more easily in the future.

That's why I'd suggested adding to the existing title rather than changing it completely.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in here and it would be a shame to confuse people with the misleading thread title.

Just a suggestion though.

Wombler

m1ckran

29th July 2008, 14:49

No problem as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not trying to be territorial. Perhaps you're right.
Is this something a moderator (jdobbs for example) would care to consider?

Michael

Wombler

29th July 2008, 23:02

No problem as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not trying to be territorial. Perhaps you're right.
Is this something a moderator (jdobbs for example) would care to consider?

Michael

Thanks Michael and I had no intention of putting you on the defensive as I'm sure you're aware.

TBH I've no problem either way and if the mods are happy then I'm happy.

Just thought it was worth raising though.

The mods here at D9 are exceptionally helpful and as you're the OP then I'm certain they'd have no objection to changing it to whatever you think best.

Wombler

m1ckran

30th July 2008, 09:24

My original question has, I think, developed into the most interesting thread on the forum, but that is due to the many contributors who have taken it forward. I claim no credit for that.

I would be perfectly happy if jdobbs would like to alter the thread title to something more appropriate.

The ball, as blutach might say, is in his wicket. :rolleyes:

Michael

blutach

30th July 2008, 10:47

You can alter it if you like - just change the top of post 1 in advanced reply mode.

Regards

jdobbs

30th July 2008, 13:38

Also, Trellis=1 is disabled when Psy RDO is on. Hmmm... decided to read up on this. Psy RDO is still experimental and it isn't in the version I've been using, but I'll give it a try.

rack04

30th July 2008, 23:58

jdobbs, are you not cropping the black bars? Should I not crop because now I have one file that is 1920x800 and one thats 1904x784. Is this going to present and problem when I playback on a blue-ray player. See I don't have one to test these files on.

One other thing. What file size do you try to hit on the second pass to fit on a DVD-5? Don't know how much space is added when muxing with tsMuxeR.

jdobbs

31st July 2008, 04:28

It depends what scenario you are speaking of. If you are converting DVD to Blu-ray there may be times you can. But if you are talking about backing up Blu-ray then no, don't crop anything

Your output has to be one of the supported resolutions for Blu-ray -- the ones you mentioned aren't. Typically the resolution is 1920x1080 (by far the most common) or 1280x720.

I usually make an estimate that the muxing is going to take up about 6%. I usually reencode the AC3 to 448Kbs also (from 640Kbs in most cases), since I don't believe you can tell the difference. So the bitrate is going to be whatever will fit in about 4.3G after accounting for audio. You can use AVISYNTH to get the framecount, which will tell you how long the video/audio is.

rack04

31st July 2008, 13:07

~bT~

31st July 2008, 13:59

I'm actually trying to compress and convert my HD DVD's to Blue-ray format that will fit on a DVD-5 and is playable on a Blue-ray standalone player.

use ripbot264 and use the bluray output format resizing to full-hd or hd..

Sharktooth

31st July 2008, 16:04

Sharktooth

31st July 2008, 19:27

also keep in mind blu-ray players are not magic players and they're not even fullly capable of playing level 4.1 streams.

shon3i

1st August 2008, 08:58

@shon3i: In the blu-ray FAQ the maximum video bitrate for blu-ray is 40000kbps (however with AVC you'll never need that bitrate).
higher values could produce stuttering or interruptions during playbac or even complete unplayability..
62000 is definatly too much. since, by official FAQ, the maximum combined audio and video bitrate is lower than what you suggest to set for video only, it is 54000kbps: http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_vs_dvd_comparison
so my preset is fine (just 2000kbits off in the maxrate) and the new blu-ray preset (available for preview in the New MeGUI x264 presets thread) have been adjusted to 40000 since some time.
Thanks for explanation and information :) I am currently working on some ref frame calculator based on level and resolution, fps, etc (from wiki and anex a table),So i read many documents about this, and i can't find proper conclusion, aslo i looked into comercial encoders and started to be confused and bit scared because i realy want to make 100% bluray compactible videos. Thanks for profiles.

Sharktooth

1st August 2008, 13:14

my presets never failed, feel free to borrow the settings from them (use the newer ones). they should be 100% Scenarist compatible too.

m1ckran

2nd August 2008, 10:53

New thread title...
Is that OK?

Michael

Wombler

2nd August 2008, 12:57

The tildes would be a bit confusing for some (not that I'm hard to confuse :)).

You could simplify to 'DVD/Blu-ray - Backup & Conversion' I suppose.

Whatever you think is best though as I don't want to clutter up the thread unnecessarily. :cool:

I'm happy for you to PM me though if you'd like to discuss.

Wombler

m1ckran

2nd August 2008, 13:43

No problem.
Job done.

I'm still happy for jdobbs to intervene if he thinks it appropriate.

Regards,
Michael

Sophocles

6th August 2008, 17:00

jdobbs

I've been experimenting with Bluray backups and I've had some interesting results. I did 10,000 BC and burned it to a single layer DVD-R with excellent 1080P Results. The original was about 17.5 GB which is relatively small for BD movie. It burned and played back just fine through my PC BD drive, but I have no way to testing it on a standalone.

I then searched through my discs to find the largest file that I could fine which was Spider Man 3 at 40 GB. I converted the HD DD sound to standard AC3 DD 5:1 448 kbps to reduce audio sizes and then once again set it to a single type5. It came in slightly oversized 4.6 GHz and there was some blocking in the dark areas of the opening credits which have a lot of imagery.

I didn't see any real problems with the movie overall but I didn't burn it either. Using imgburn I converted it to an ISO which converts it to UDF file and mounted it with Daemon tools for testing. It's obvious that this movie shouldn't be converted for burning to a single layer disc so tonight will resize it and set it for a dual layer burn. The 10,000 BC took less than 7 hours to complete and Spider man took almost exactly 10.5 hours. All were set for two pass.

I realize this might be a bit off topic but it was our earlier discussion that got me going on this so thanks. I can't wait until you develop your own system. HLG

jdobbs

6th August 2008, 17:25

I'm finding that ~2 hour movies are good on a single layer, but when it gets significantly more than that I burn it to dual layer. I especially noticed it with "Wyatt Earp" which is exceptionally long. In most scenes it looked good, but the dark scenes would show blockiness on a single layer disc. On dual-layer, though, it is indistinguishable from the original.

The other option is to use 1280x720 -- which pretty much never needs dual layer.

I've been burning a lot of these -- and it is very exciting to watch them on my blu-ray player at such a beautiful resolution.

I wouldn't pay much attention to the size of the original... it's the overall length in time that really makes a difference. You'll even find that some of the originals are MPEG-2, which isn't nearly as efficient as AVC.

frank

6th August 2008, 17:28

Originmal posted by jdobbs:
But, you can't set the "--vbv-maxrate" that high if you are going to write to DVD-R or DVD+R, because you are limited to configuring for no more than 2X, as shown in my example a good value would be "--vbv-maxrate 17500" that would give you reasonable room to add in audio and subs (as long as you aren't planning on using LPCM).RIGHT!!!

But my experience for BR-9 (DVD-9) after a lot of tests is:
Resolution: 1280x720p
VBV buffer size = 15000
VBV Maximum Bitrate = 15000

Then the vbv can hold the content for 0.5 sec when the bitrate is exceeding the maximum. You'll never get stuttering.

Sophocles

6th August 2008, 18:10

I'm finding that ~2 hour movies are good on a single layer, but when it gets significantly more than that I burn it to dual layer

I should have mentioned that Spider man 3 has a 2:20 run time. I realize that physical size is not a deciding factor to the actual number of frames across the movie, but I figured that it had something to do with the more than 3 hours that it took to encode than the previous encode which was 37 minutes longer. I probably could have cropped a little off the beginning and ending but I have a fetish and like to keep them.

I'll look at making a few adjustments vbv buffer size and maxrate a bit and see what turns up but another fetish is the need to try and keep 1080P if possible.

Frank

Thanks for the info.

I suspect that most movies will do find with 1080P, but if I get some with really long run times I will consider both jdobbs and your suggestions.

frank

6th August 2008, 19:09

I suspect that most movies will do fine with 1080P...Do you know the resolution of your device??
Most notebooks and PC screens and a lot of TVs have no FULL-HD (1920x1080) panels!

For 1920x1080:
BD9/BD5 discs must be spun at high speed, equivalent to a 3× DVD drive speed or greater to get the high user data rate 33.24 Mbps.
Then you have to set the vbv MaxBitrate to ~38000.

AFAIK the PS3 has such noisy drives (games on data discs...) but no silent dvd pc drive.

jdobbs

6th August 2008, 20:21

When you're writing to DVD-R (BD-5/BD-9) you have to follow the AVCHD specifications -- and that means you can't assume anything greater than 2X spin speed. I also think that is where the 3 B-Frame limit came from too, but I'd have to check. With AVC 17,500 Kbs is plenty of bitrate for 1920x1080. As Frank mentioned, 15000 would probably be just as good...

Sophocles

6th August 2008, 20:34

Do you know the resolution of your device??

Yes, I have a samsung 24 inch S-PVA panel monitor connected by DVI-D dual link cable and default set to 1920 by 1200, (soon to be replaced by either the 27 inch or a 30 inch if I find one that I like). BTW, I prefer Samsung's S-PVA panels to Dells S-IPS panels for video playback.

My drive is a Lite-ON BD player which has 4X BD play speed and 12X DVD-Rom speed. My graphics card is an ATI HD 3870. My system has 4 gigabytes of corsair RAM in a 2 X 2 GB configuration, and my Processor is an E8400 overclocked to 3.8 GHz. It goes on like that any of 6 systems are adequate. I have vbv Maxbitrate still sitting at 30,000 but I've measured the quality of the results by running it through Procoder 3 and it lists them as 1080P. I haven't heard that it needs to be set to as high as 38,000 but I'll check into it.

Khauron

6th August 2008, 21:04

Sorry if this has been asked before, but:
What about Blue-Ray backup to DVD-5 / DVD-9? Can current version of DVD-RB handle it?

jdobbs

6th August 2008, 21:06

...I have vbv Maxbitrate still sitting at 30,000...As I mentioned, I wouldn't do that if you are ever planning on playing these back with a standalone (on BD-9/BD-5).

jdobbs

6th August 2008, 21:08

Sorry if this has been asked before, but:
What about Blue-Ray backup to DVD-5 / DVD-9? Can current version of DVD-RB handle it?No. DVD-RB only reads and reproduces DVDs. Blu-ray is an entirely different format. What has been discussed as a possibliity is the back of DVD to Blu-ray so AVC can be used to keep 100% of the quality. BD-Rebuilder (a completely different project) will provide that capability (assuming it ever gets completed).

Sophocles

6th August 2008, 21:26

As I mentioned, I wouldn't do that if you are ever planning on playing these back with a standalone (on BD-9/BD-5).

jdobbs

I doubt that I will ever purchase a standalone since I have an HTPC which I am also in the progress of updating, but if you suggest a maxbitrate of 15,000 then your word has always been good with me, and since Frank also recommends it I will make the changes to 17,500 since my next encode is still waiting for me to press start. I have got to get a portable hard drive to transfer my ripped files between computers. Hmm! Perhaps I can steal my wife's:P

jdobbs

7th August 2008, 01:16

Sophocles

7th August 2008, 01:53

I think at some point everyone will toss out their DVD players and replace them with Blu-ray. The cost will eventually drop to some ridculously low level (like DVD) and it just makes playback easier... that's why I always recommend using settings that will go with that flow. That way people won't have to reencode everything all over again in a year or two.

I agree prices have to fall on hardware soon or BD is going to face a Windows Vista moment. I still shop for standard DVD because for many types of entertainment such as "A Few Good Men," HD adds little to the overall experience. Where I enjoy HD is in movies that detail rich backgrounds such as scifis and historical films.

BTW -- good to see you posting regularly on Doom9 again.

Thanks, I enjoy Doom9 and hope to make it my second home.:D

laserfan

7th August 2008, 03:16

...you have to set the file name and bitrate before running (first two lines). The bitrate is calculated based upon the size (in frames) of the input...

@SET IN_TITLE=FILETITLE
@SET IN_BITRATE=5240
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1
--aud --vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --bframes 3 --direct auto
--subme 2 --analyse none --me dia --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr
--no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 1 --output NUL
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud
--vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3
--b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 1 --analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8
--8x8dct --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim
--stats "stats2.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.264"
TIME /T
PAUSE

I've tried to correlate the example above (SET IN_BITRATE=5240) to any movie-length no. of frames and must not understand the math. Can jdobbs or anyone tell me how to select a bitrate for a movie's framecount, that correlates with a DVD-5 or DVD-9? :o

jdobbs

7th August 2008, 12:28

You just work from the run time of the movie.

For example let's say you have a movie that has a run time of 2:10:14. That would be 7814 seconds. Now you have to determine the output size: a DVD+R (Dual Layer) holds 8,547,991,552 bytes or 68,383,932,416 bits. Divide that by the number of seconds and it means that, without any other considerations, you have a total of 8,751,463 bits per second (about 8751Kbs). If you assume a 6% overhead you will come to about 8400Kbs. Being the careful type I usually even take a little more off (because it takes lots of hours to encode, I don't want to oversize and have to do it twice). So let's round it down to 8200Kbs.

Now subtract the audio track. Let's say you are keeping one of the 640Kbs AC3 tracks... 8200 - 640 = 7560.

So you'd replace the 5240 with 7560 for that movie.

laserfan

7th August 2008, 16:57

Sharc

19th August 2008, 20:38

Has anyone tried yet to play a x264 AVC re-encoded DVD at its native resolution (720x480) on a Blue-ray standalone?
I know the resolution is not Blue-ray compliant, but upscaling does not add true details, it just takes much more time for encoding.

jdobbs

19th August 2008, 20:50

Actually 720x480 is blu-ray compliant. The only secret to that one is making sure you encode it with the right SAR. I assume you mean doing a MOVIE-ONLY disc with the blu-ray disc/file format.

Sharc

19th August 2008, 21:33

Yes, I am thinking of Movie-only "transparent" DVD backups.
I am in PAL country, so the resolution is actually 720x576, anamorphic 16:9, SAR 16:11, encoding with x264, authoring with tsmuxer. So you think this format should be playable on a standalon BD player (I don't have one yet to try myself ..... )?
With all the progress made recently, x264 with 1-pass CRF becomes more and more speedwise attractive, even on my outdated single-core PC. I re-encoded the 3-hours Wyatt Earp in 8 hours with CRF=16, original resolution, 2 language tracks, fitting easily on a DVD5, excellent quality.

jdobbs

20th August 2008, 00:48

I did that one too, but I did it in two-pass mode with x264. It is one of the few Blu-ray to DVD-5 ones that I decided to redo in DVD-9. Actually 99% of the movie looked great, but there was some blocking in dark scenes. I wonder if it would look better with CRF? I may give it a try.

I've done some 720x480 encodes in testing and they play back on my Sony standalone. I haven't done any recently. I'll run a couple through just as a comparison to MPEG-2 in DVD Format. I think an exceptionally long movie would be a good test case (like maybe Wyatt Earp or Gladiator).

Wombler

20th August 2008, 21:32

I think an exceptionally long movie would be a good test case (like maybe Wyatt Earp or Gladiator).

How about 'Saving Private Ryan'?

This was always a stern test for any of the DVD re-encoders so I'd assume the Blu-Ray to DVD would be equally challenging.

Wombler

jdobbs

21st August 2008, 02:09

Good idea.

tyee

21st August 2008, 06:48

JDobbs
Thanks for all the info you've provided here. I have been backing up my BRs to external USB Hard Drive and playing on the PS3 that way using CRF=20 one pass. I'm getting encode times of REAL TIME with x264 with my Q6600 quad core. However my command line is nowhere as full as the one you gave, and of course I cannot predict the final file size. I looks like your using constant bitrate then, does not fast motion cause problems?

I'm interested in using your command lines to try burning to DVD5 but have a question, what version of x264 do you use currently and do you keep upgrading it every time a new version comes out. What site do you get it from?

From what I gather, MANY versions are available and it is very confusing which one to use unless you follow the threads everyday.
Like here --> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=130364

Wombler

21st August 2008, 08:36

Good idea.

Apologies JD.

Remarkably 'Saving Private Ryan' hasn't been released on Blu-ray and I'd assumed it was bound to be available.

Apparently it was originally released by one of the HD-DVD supporting studios and they haven't got their act together yet re a Blu-ray release.

Oh well. :rolleyes:

Wombler

G_M_C

21st August 2008, 09:12

I've also been backing up BR's to DVD9's. For a rule of thumb I stick to approx. 1 1/2 ~ 1 3/4 hours per DVD9 for a 1080p, simply because i want to keep as much detail as possible while retaining a resonable amount of cuts. Most movies end up in 2 parts (either DVD9 or DVD5, or a mix of those).

In my experiance it works best to keep good details, because you can use a good enough bitrate for video. I also try to use a DTS 1,5 mbps audio if possible; Sometimes it's the core-DTS track, and sometimes I make the DTS-track with EAC3To + DTS-encoder. I also mux in 1 subtitle-track; But i try to get @ 10000 kbps for 1080p video approx, depending on the source offcourse (movement, scenecuts etc.).

For encoding i use MeGUI atm, and "make my .AVS-script myself / by hand". I use the last patched x264 build (with all the psy-additions and the new b-frame decisions). I'll post my commandline tonight if you want.

EDIT:
I make these DVD's for playing on my standalone Panasonic DPM-BD30, and they play without issues. Muxed to Blu-ray structure thru tsMuxeR 1.84(b), burned both the BDMV & CERTIFICATE folders with IMGBurn.

jdobbs

21st August 2008, 11:36

I looks like your using constant bitrate then, does not fast motion cause problems? No... the command line I gave here uses VBR, but it does it in two passes rather than one (as would be true with CRF). When you've made a decision to fit HD on a DVD-5 or DVD-9 it's just better to use all the tools at your disposal. While I like CRF very much, two pass encoding is the best way to ensure you are getting the best out of your encode (as long as you have time to do so).
From what I gather, MANY versions are available and it is very confusing which one to use unless you follow the threads everyday. Yes they get released all the time. I used r777 for a long time. I recently started using r928. I go to www.x264.nl every now and then to see what's new. It can be a little confusing with all the changes -- but it's also good to know that the program is being so actively worked. I haven't starting using psyRDO yet, but it appears it may soon become the standard approach.

G_M_C

21st August 2008, 16:59

This is the commandline I use / MeGUI makes;

program --pass 2 --bitrate 10000 --stats ".stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ref 4 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 2 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --ipratio 1.3 --pbratio 1.2 --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 --qcomp 0.5 --scenecut 32 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --b-adapt 2 --psy-rd 1.0

Sharc

21st August 2008, 18:51

Apologies JD.

Remarkably 'Saving Private Ryan' hasn't been released on Blu-ray and I'd assumed it was bound to be available.

Even the DVD version of SPR could be worth a test for comparison with an mpeg-2 backup on a DVD5.
I just wonder which version is compatible for playback on a standalone BD player:
Assuming original DVD PAL, 720x576, anamorphic, active picture 720x416
a) no crop, no resize => encode x264, sar 16:11
b) crop 720x416, no resize => encode x264, sar 16:11
c) crop 720x416, resize 720x576 => encode x264, sar 255:129

I would assume a) and c) should be ok because the 720x576 is BD compliant
I doubt with b) because 720x416 is not a BD compliant resolution.
Any experience?

m1482

21st August 2008, 19:14

jdobbs

21st August 2008, 19:36

That's a function of the muxing... try using TSMUXER instead (that's the one I use most often). By default it puts a chapter mark at each 5 minutes. You can also adjust it.

jdobbs

21st August 2008, 22:11

How about 'Saving Private Ryan'?

This was always a stern test for any of the DVD re-encoders so I'd assume the Blu-Ray to DVD would be equally challenging.

WomblerI'm encoding SPR right now from DVD to BD-5 format keeping the 720x480 resolution. I'll let you know how it looks when completed. I also plan to do a 1280x720 version for comparison.

Sharc

21st August 2008, 22:26

I'm encoding SPR right now from DVD to BD-5 format keeping the 720x480 resolution.
Means you don't crop the black borders, you leave them untouched in order to comply with the BD standard (720x480)?

jdobbs

21st August 2008, 23:09

I leave them untouched. Very, very few discs are 704x480 -- in fact I'm not sure I've ever seen a commercial one. They almost all are 720x480 (for NTSC). IMHO the smart strategy is to not modify their original configuration. Here are the legal formats for blu-ray:

1920 x 1080
1440 x 1080 (AVC/VC-1 only)
1280 x 720
720 x 480
720 x 576

Sharc

22nd August 2008, 05:51

For the exceptional 704x480 / 704x576 discs (eg "The Jacket" if I remember correctly) one should probably add vertical borders then, or resize horizontally to 720 and set the SAR accordingly.
I have also made an example with cropping and resizing the active picture to 720 x 576, and set the sar to 255:129 in that case. The resizing of course doesn't add real details, it rather blows up the file size (CRF encoding) and takes longer to encode.

Wombler

22nd August 2008, 09:11

I'm encoding SPR right now from DVD to BD-5 format keeping the 720x480 resolution. I'll let you know how it looks when completed. I also plan to do a 1280x720 version for comparison.

Ahh good.

So I didn't lead you entirely astray then. :)

It'll be very interesting though to hear your results.

Wombler

jdobbs

22nd August 2008, 11:53

The 720x480 encode went well, it took much less time of course than a BD movie, and the playback looks identical to the original.

tyee

23rd August 2008, 06:17

Sharc

23rd August 2008, 08:00

With my outdated and slow single core system 1-pass CRF has become my choice for x264 "overnight encodes". There is of course the file size issue with 1-pass. However, using CRF16 for DVD backups (in original resolution) of up to 3 hours duration seem to fit on a DVD5 including 2 original AC3 soundtracks + subtitles. With CRF16 I would say the backup is indistinguishable from the original. CRF18 is almost equally good, if one wants to be on the very safe side with the file size. I have noticed little blurring/softening/loss of details in dark scenes in a direct frame-by-frame comparison with the original - but hardly noticeable when watching the movie.

jdobbs

23rd August 2008, 12:07

jdobbs
I tried your 2pass bat file last night and it came out great. Boy I sure didn't have much room for error, I had about 23 MB left to spare after muxing in the 448kbps audio!

Pass 1 took about 1.5hrs (36fps) Pass 2 took about 3.5 hrs (17fps).

I then decided to try one pass CRF=23 and it took about 2 hrs at 27fps. Comparing them just now on my Dell 30", I can't really see a difference, and the one pass was about 700MB smaller!

I noticed in the early discussion in this thread that you tried CRF too but now use 2pass, is this correct? How come the switch? I think I'm going to go with one pass CRF. I like the speed! I've used CRF, and it looks good. But I noticed some occasional blocking (especially in dark scenes) that went away when I used 2 pass. The fact is that two pass will always do better. But when you can't see it, it doesn't mean a thing. :)

What kind of processor are you using. 1.5 and 3.5 are pretty good times with the settings I proposed (they are meant for extremely high quality on pass-2).

tyee

23rd August 2008, 15:49

I have a Q6600 2.4GHz o/c to 3GHz, not too bad.

jdobbs

23rd August 2008, 20:14

My Quad-Core Phenom 9500 is lame compared to your Q6600. How long was the movie?

Wombler

24th August 2008, 22:39

The 720x480 encode went well, it took much less time of course than a BD movie, and the playback looks identical to the original.

Excellent.

If you want the ultimate test though try Rammstein's 'Volkerball' DVD.

I tried this one with various encoders and couldn't even get what I'd regard as passable results no matter what settings I played with.

I reckon this one's impossible with normal DVD codecs.

Wombler

G_M_C

25th August 2008, 11:32

Excellent.

If you want the ultimate test though try Rammstein's 'Volkerball' DVD.

I tried this one with various encoders and couldn't even get what I'd regard as passable results no matter what settings I played with.

I reckon this one's impossible with normal DVD codecs.

Wombler

(Re)Encoding live music DVD's is often difficult. Often it is best to set higher number of keyframe-interval and instead use a lower/more sensitive scenechange-detection. If you get that right, then i-frames will be placed based more on scene-change (flashing lights for instance) in stead of just on a regular x-frame basis; But you'll still need a higher bitrate than normal, because there is much more movement / scene-changes compared to movies.

BUT (there is allways a but isn't there) the BR-specs describe a keyframe-interval of max 1 second (so keyframe-interval == framerate, rounded off). So you can only try to lower the --scenecut parameter of x264 (considerably).

Try these options (for use with this build: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1172251#post1172251. Use that one, some of the newer ones dont work right);

--level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ref 4 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 2 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --ipratio 1.3 --pbratio 1.2 --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 --qcomp 0.5 --scenecut << set lower, maybe even down to 16 or 20 >> --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --b-adapt 2 --psy-rd 1.0

Wombler

25th August 2008, 16:01

Thanks for that G_M_C but I'm afraid I haven't dabbled with x.264 yet as I haven't yet bought a Blu-ray player.

Jdobbs may find this useful ATM but I'd also like to start playing around with this stuff myself at some stage.

If you don't mind me asking, are you using a GUI with x.264 and if so, which one?

Wombler

G_M_C

26th August 2008, 07:02

[...]
If you don't mind me asking, are you using a GUI with x.264 and if so, which one?

Wombler

Atm I use Megui, and configure x264 from there. You can also set the more " expirimental" options in the custom commandline-field of Megui. Decrypting, creating AVS-scripts etc. i do myself by AvsP or by hand if it's only opening.

Actually, coming back to (re)encoding "very active" live music video's/concert recordings; The fact that you need more bitrate than average, and could try to tweak the scene-changesettings, should count for all formats / codecs.

Wombler

26th August 2008, 21:08

Actually, coming back to (re)encoding "very active" live music video's/concert recordings; The fact that you need more bitrate than average, and could try to tweak the scene-changesettings, should count for all formats / codecs.

Absolutely but I think that the original disc in this particular case is already so highly optimised that there's not enough scope to compress to DVD5 within the constraints of normal DVD codecs.

Or in other words in this extreme case adjusting the settings will make some improvement but nothing like enough to produce even a barely adequate DVD5 version.

That's why I thought it would be a good test for x264 as out of hundreds of DVDs I've never experienced anything that's even as remotely severe a test as this particular disc.

Wombler

G_M_C

27th August 2008, 00:18

Absolutely but I think that the original disc in this particular case is already so highly optimised that there's not enough scope to compress to DVD5 within the constraints of normal DVD codecs.

Or in other words in this extreme case adjusting the settings will make some improvement but nothing like enough to produce even a barely adequate DVD5 version.

That's why I thought it would be a good test for x264 as out of hundreds of DVDs I've never experienced anything that's even as remotely severe a test as this particular disc.

Wombler

I dont have that DVD, and i dont know if jdobbs has it. So i say Try it ! It's not that much different from other (re)encoding stuff. Just decrypt the DVD, run it through DGIndex, make an AVS with MPEG2Source() and open that in Megui.

The only thing you need to look at is that you have the right build of x264 for use with the commandline i gave. Megui has a bitratecalculator and can mux to mkv, so you should be able to work out how it works quite easily :)

After finishing you can try to compare with the original on you PC !

Sophocles

27th August 2008, 01:15

I’ve been backing Blu-Ray to type 5 and 9 DVD-/+R discs with no issue as of yet. I don’t use a home BD player but then I don’t expect to own one either since I prefer using an HTPC for media playback. Then I got into converting HD DVD to BD compatible type single and dual layer and that also worked like a charm in my BD player. After having done several successful encodes I decided to try the HD DVD of the new version of King Kong which is a 3 hour and 7 minute movie. Because of its 3 hour plus length I naturally decided to shoot for a dual layer disc.

The final result came in at 7.95 Gigabytes. I began playing it and the video quality was excellent and so was the sound, or so I thought. The sound and video both were excellent to about half way through the movie and then the audio turned into a reverberating metallic sounding noise. Since HD DVD’s unlike all the BD movies I’ve seen are recorded to two main files labeled “feature 1 and feature 2” my best guess is that for some reason the second feature file is not muxing properly. Any ideas?

Sharc

27th August 2008, 11:05

Have you tried to remux the original sound track(s)? It may be safer than transcoding the format.

Sophocles

27th August 2008, 22:17

Have you tried to remux the original sound track(s)? It may be safer than transcoding the format.

I think I left the original 448 KHz track in tact but now you've got me thinking that I might have inadvertently chosen to transcode. I have a new L GGW-H20L multi drive coming in today so after I move HD DVD and Lite-On BD drive to another computer I'll be able to experiment a little more often. King Kong took twice as long as any other movie I've attempted (16 hours).

jdobbs

27th August 2008, 23:24

Any chance it was True-HD or one of the other extended formats? Sometimes you have to tell TSMUXER to remove the extended part. I know when I try to play them back without down-converting I get terrible squealing on my PC.

Sophocles

28th August 2008, 00:49

I just went back and reviewed the soundtrack. It has a single 448 kbps Dolby Digital plus sound track for each of three languages.

The funny thing is that the first 60 to 70 minutes of the encodes playback audio is perfect, and then out of the blue it goes sour with a metallic buzzing sound. This is why I thought that perhaps the second feature file failed to mux properly. The video was perfect all the way through. I'm setting up a couple of rigs just for BD encoding this weekend. One to encode HD DVD to BD and another for BD to BD only. Then I'll give it another try since the 16 hours won't tie things up. LOL

laserfan

1st September 2008, 23:39

Is there any magic to using DL DVD+R discs with the BR structure i.e. any "layer break" issues to deal with?

jdobbs

1st September 2008, 23:40

I haven't had any "issues" -- but sometimes you see the pause when it hits the layer break.

tyee

2nd September 2008, 01:57

My Quad-Core Phenom 9500 is lame compared to your Q6600. How long was the movie?

Sorry for the late reply, I was on holidays. I believe the movie was 2hr. 20min. The big robot movie!

BTW, what brand of DL discs would you recommend? I see that there are few DVD-R DL but quite a few DVD+R DL?

jdobbs

2nd September 2008, 12:18

I find Verbatim to be a good disc. I use the inkjet printable DVD+R DL.

G_M_C

2nd September 2008, 12:33

I haven't had any "issues" -- but sometimes you see the pause when it hits the layer break.

Depends on the buffer in the player i think. Havent had pause with my BR-player (Panasonic db30), playing DIY BD9's (DVD9 with Bluray-structure, made by tsMuxeR).

jdobbs

2nd September 2008, 12:53

G_M_C

2nd September 2008, 13:47

What value do you use for "--keyint", anything?

EDIT: Never mind. I see from the previous page that you use "--keyint 24". Is there a blu-ray limit/suggestion on the keyint value? I've been using the default (250) and it works -- but I wonder if it is the reason for the pause at layer break.

Just had a disscusion about that elswhere on the board; Bluray specs say that a GOP can be max 1 sec long. Based on that I set my --keyint equal to the framerate, rounded off.

See also this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=140741

My posting (and further discussion about --keyint): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1178039#post1178039

jdobbs

2nd September 2008, 14:03

G_M_C

2nd September 2008, 14:35

Good to know. Thanks. Interestingly my Sony BDP-S301 Player doesn't seem to have a problem with large GOPs. I'll modify my recommended command line in this thread to include the limited keyint.

Do you know if there is a summary of blu-ray constaints online anywhere?

Also, do you know if there is a site or document that outlines the formats for .mpls and .clpi files anywhere online? I've been dumping them out and have gathered some info -- but it is really tedious.

No i have not seen a site where all the required info can be found, only bits and pieces here (on this forum) and there ; And I think there are people on this board that might be able help you further. The only thing i know of are the whitepapers on the Blu-ray Disc Association site.

laserfan

3rd September 2008, 19:27

Do you know if there is a summary of blu-ray constaints online anywhere?Not sure how all of these translate to the x264 command line, but Sharktooth has published a BR standalone profile for MeGUI over here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=139765) which looks like this:

<Name>Standalone-Blu-ray</Name>
<Settings>
<EncodingMode>4</EncodingMode>
<BitrateQuantizer>8000</BitrateQuantizer>
<KeyframeInterval>24</KeyframeInterval>
<NbBframes>3</NbBframes>
<MinQuantizer>10</MinQuantizer>
<MaxQuantizer>51</MaxQuantizer>
<Turbo>true</Turbo>
<V4MV>false</V4MV>
<QPel>false</QPel>
<Trellis>false</Trellis>
<CreditsQuantizer>40</CreditsQuantizer>
<Logfile>.stats</Logfile>
<CustomEncoderOptions>--mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1</CustomEncoderOptions>
<FourCC>1</FourCC>
<MaxNumberOfPasses>3</MaxNumberOfPasses>
<NbThreads>0</NbThreads>
<QuantizerCRF>8000</QuantizerCRF>
<EncodeInterlaced>false</EncodeInterlaced>
<NoDCTDecimate>false</NoDCTDecimate>
<PSNRCalculation>false</PSNRCalculation>
<noFastPSkip>false</noFastPSkip>
<NoiseReduction>0</NoiseReduction>
<MixedRefs>true</MixedRefs>
<X264Trellis>2</X264Trellis>
<NbRefFrames>3</NbRefFrames>
<AlphaDeblock>-1</AlphaDeblock>
<BetaDeblock>-1</BetaDeblock>
<SubPelRefinement>5</SubPelRefinement>
<MaxQuantDelta>4</MaxQuantDelta>
<TempQuantBlur>0</TempQuantBlur>
<BframePredictionMode>3</BframePredictionMode>
<VBVBufferSize>30000</VBVBufferSize>
<VBVMaxBitrate>40000</VBVMaxBitrate>
<METype>2</METype>
<MERange>16</MERange>
<MinGOPSize>2</MinGOPSize>
<Profile>2</Profile>
<Level>11</Level>
<IPFactor>1.1</IPFactor>
<PBFactor>1.1</PBFactor>
<ChromaQPOffset>0</ChromaQPOffset>
<VBVInitialBuffer>0.9</VBVInitialBuffer>
<BitrateVariance>1.0</BitrateVariance>
<QuantCompression>0.5</QuantCompression>
<TempComplexityBlur>20</TempComplexityBlur>
<TempQuanBlurCC>0.5</TempQuanBlurCC>
<SCDSensitivity>40</SCDSensitivity>
<BframeBias>0</BframeBias>
<Deblock>true</Deblock>
<Cabac>true</Cabac>
<WeightedBPrediction>true</WeightedBPrediction>
<AdaptiveBFrames>true</AdaptiveBFrames>
<BFramePyramid>false</BFramePyramid>
<BRDO>true</BRDO>
<biME>true</biME>
<ChromaME>true</ChromaME>
<P8x8mv>true</P8x8mv>
<B8x8mv>true</B8x8mv>
<I4x4mv>true</I4x4mv>
<I8x8mv>true</I8x8mv>
<P4x4mv>false</P4x4mv>
<AdaptiveDCT>true</AdaptiveDCT>
<SSIMCalculation>false</SSIMCalculation>
<Lossless>false</Lossless>
<QuantizerMatrix>Flat (none)</QuantizerMatrix>
<QuantizerMatrixType>0</QuantizerMatrixType>
<DeadZoneInter>21</DeadZoneInter>
<DeadZoneIntra>11</DeadZoneIntra>
<AQmode>2</AQmode>
<AQstrength>1.0</AQstrength>

Not sure if this is "be-all, end-all" info but at least it corroborates the KeyInt of 24.

BTW I did my first BU today using your BAT file and it all worked--pretty amazing to see, though it did take my P4 fully 40 hours to complete! :eek:

I'm underwhelmed by the result, a little blocky, but I did a 2h8m movie for DVD+5 and wasn't expecting too much from the 4000kbps bitrate used. Next time I'll try a DL, or maybe downsize to 720p.

jdobbs

3rd September 2008, 19:37

If you're underwhelmed -- then something is wrong. A 2h8m movie should be very easy for x264 to encode for DVD-5. None of the ones I've done that size have any blocks at all. I'm talking "perfect". Are you sure the original wasn't blocky? Did you do two passes?

Don't know if I would have the patience for 40 hours. I'm getting down to about 8 hours now for a two pass encode now -- and that is barely tolerable.

Also -- watch out for the maximum bitrate in the profile you posted if you're writing to DVD-5 or 9, the maximum bitrate is too high for those.

laserfan

3rd September 2008, 19:52

Well, I did use your BAT and two passes etc. but yes it's blocky from the start (the orig is fine).

I just found the videohelp page for MeGUI that says "set keyint to 10x framerate" i.e. 240 and the minkey to 24 so now I don't know what to make of the profiles I mentioned.

I'll try the process again when I don't need my CPU for a few days! ;)

G_M_C

3rd September 2008, 20:00

Well, I did use your BAT and two passes etc. but yes it's blocky from the start (the orig is fine).

I just found the videohelp page for MeGUI that says "set keyint to 10x framerate" i.e. 240 and the minkey to 24 [...]

Those arent Blu-ray compliant. Blu-ray compliant keyint are as i stated above in post #246.

ANyway; I've been trying to do with Blu-ray what DVD-RB does for DVD's (i.e. thake the "big" BR and re-encode+remux to smaller disk(s) ).

I take a AVC-encoded main movie M2TS, and index the video with DGAVCIndex. I demux the audio & chapters with EAC3to. Make a AVS, and encode that with the commandline and bitrate/specs i gave earlier in this thread. After encoding i mux the audio, video and chapters with TSMuxeR to blu-ray. Most work OK, but with the new audio-formats; I saw a post here on Doom9 how to fix that, cause is seems to be a tsMuxeR problem. And i havent got the hang of the subtitles yet.

What i want to say is that it should be possible to make a BR-Rebuilder (BD-50 ==> BD-25, and/or BD ==> BR-DVD9/5), since it looks like it is possible to do the same idea by hand atm. Too bad that some of the programms needed are not open source, so you cant get hints on their workings from their sources.

laserfan

3rd September 2008, 20:06

Those arent Blu-ray compliant. Blu-ray compliant keyint are as i stated above in post #246.I'm confused--WHICH aren't BR compliant, the Sharktooth profiles or the 10x comments (http://forum.videohelp.com/topic333634.html)in videohelp forum.

Re: my blockiness, maybe has something to do with the version of x264 I used. Here's what MediaInfo says about it:

Writing library : x264 core 61 r955 d4265bb
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=umh / subme=6 / brdo=1 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / bime=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=4000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=1.00 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=17500 / vbv_bufsize=14745 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=2:1.00

jdobbs

3rd September 2008, 20:29

Here's the .BAT updated to limit key interval to 24 (to comply with the 1 sec limit).

@SET IN_TITLE=FILETITLE
@SET IN_BITRATE=5240
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1
--aud --vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --bframes 3 --direct auto
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --subme 2 --analyse none --me dia --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 1 --output NUL
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud
--vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 1
--analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --me umh --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.264"
TIME /T
PAUSE

laserfan

3rd September 2008, 20:44

Just had a disscusion about that elswhere on the board; Bluray specs say that a GOP can be max 1 sec long. Based on that I set my --keyint equal to the framerate, rounded off....My posting (and further discussion about --keyint): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1178039#post1178039OK I looked at that thread and derive from it that 24 is the right answer as you've said already, and that the 250 that others have used (and wrongly state as BR compliant) have done so because it works on many-but-not-all BR players esp. the PS3 which is another beast entirely.

So I will use 24. I suppose maybe the 250 I used for my 1 & only encoding thus far may have contributed to blockiness but in any case I've looked further at my disc and it's unacceptable I would say as a "keeper". :o FWIW the movie is LiveFreeorDieHard Blu-Ray--not even sure it's worth a DL! :p

jdobbs

3rd September 2008, 21:35

I found a spec summary online that says depending upon the bitrate you can have up to 2 seconds (if you stay under 15Mbs) -- but one second is what you should use. I sure would be nice if there were a single place to go for that, similar to mpucoder's DVD specification site.

I suppose maybe the 250 I used for my 1 & only encoding thus far may have contributed to blockiness. Not likely. If anything it would have made it better.

G_M_C

3rd September 2008, 22:10

OK I looked at that thread and derive from it that 24 is the right answer as you've said already, and that the 250 that others have used (and wrongly state as BR compliant) have done so because it works on many-but-not-all BR players esp. the PS3 which is another beast entirely.

So I will use 24. I suppose maybe the 250 I used for my 1 & only encoding thus far may have contributed to blockiness but in any case I've looked further at my disc and it's unacceptable I would say as a "keeper". :o FWIW the movie is LiveFreeorDieHard Blu-Ray--not even sure it's worth a DL! :p

Just a reminder; It is not allways 24 ! I've made encodings of clips that were 29,97 fps (deinterlaced) that had nu duplicates that i could find, so no decimation/pull-down removal was possible.

Those clips should be encoded with --keyint 30 (29,97 rounded up). And offcourse there are the many PAL clips, that should be encoded as --keyint 25.

Thats why i stick to the definition that --keyint == framerate, rounded to the next integer (rounded up mostly).

laserfan

3rd September 2008, 22:10

Not likely. If anything it would have made it better.
Well, I made the keyframe changes and upped the bitrate by 50% to 6000. Encoded the first 500 frames, and while it looks a lot better, it still is easily distinguishable from the original.

I'm decoding with ffdshow and I think jdobbs you use CoreAVC--can't imagine this would account for the weakness in my method but... well I'm just a bit disappointed so far. :confused:

jdobbs

4th September 2008, 00:44

jdobbs

4th September 2008, 00:48

Those clips should be encoded with --keyint 30 (29,97 rounded up). And offcourse there are the many PAL clips, that should be encoded as --keyint 25. Good point. But I don't think it would make a dramatic difference. Interestingly, I've done about 50 of these now (all with a GOP of 250, arrghh), and I have yet to have seen one that wasn't 23.976fps.

G_M_C

4th September 2008, 07:33

Good point. But I don't think it would make a dramatic difference. Interestingly, I've done about 50 of these now (all with a GOP of 250, arrghh), and I have yet to have seen one that wasn't 23.976fps.

I live in The Netherlands, so we get quite a lot of PAL stuff here ;)

Also there are offcourse some HD channels that use 1080i @ 50 or 60. It only makes sense to encode those caps @ 720p50 or 30 (no pull-down required mostly, cause in many of those streams there are no duplicates or obvious blends (so no pull-down to 23,976 possible).

And anyway; Your streams work fine, so it's not really a problem. The only (possible) problem occurs on layer-breaks, and we're not even shure thats caused by the long GOP's.

laserfan

4th September 2008, 13:09

CoreAVC definitely gave me a boost in speed, but I don't think it had any noticable effect on quality. If you are using my .BAT, make sure you are not using a psyRDO version of X264 -- because (as I understand it) trellis shouldn't be used with psyRDO.I used the latest build from the x264 site (then 955), which I don't think had the psyRDO feature, but also I found the --longhelp didn't have anything about --filter which is in your BAT. And after reading more a link from G_M_C wherein x264 builds are discussed I've gotten dizzy to say the least.

I think I am going to try instead the r938 build referenced by GMC and also his commands noted earlier. He also has mentioned much higher bitrates than you are using jdobbs.

jdobbs

4th September 2008, 13:30

The bitrate is finite and is determined by the size of the media you will use -- not preference.

Not sure why you are seeing blocking. All I can say is that I've done 50+ of these, most on DVD-5, and on my 52" Sony 1920x1080 LCD display using HDMI the output is indistinguishable from the original.

G_M_C

4th September 2008, 14:02

I think I am going to try instead the r938 build referenced by GMC and also his commands noted earlier. He also has mentioned much higher bitrates than you are using jdobbs.

I've updated to the newest pached version by techouse; http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1178835#post1178835

And the higher bitrate I use is because I mostly work with 1080p (1920x1080 progressive) HighDef material. On regular DVD's, you can use much lower bitrates; In fact the ~5000 used by jdobbs should be plenty (i've seen 720p encodings at that bitrate, so you might even go lower).

If you see (quantization?) blocking on your encodes, and their resolution (source) is indeed DVD, than it might be something else; It might even be the source or your AVS-script.

BTW: Comparing results with jdobbs doesn't really work, except when you work from the exact same source offcourse.

laserfan

4th September 2008, 21:22

And the higher bitrate I use is because I mostly work with 1080p (1920x1080 progressive) HighDef material. On regular DVD's, you can use much lower bitrates; In fact the ~5000 used by jdobbs should be plenty (i've seen 720p encodings at that bitrate, so you might even go lower).

If you see (quantization?) blocking on your encodes, and their resolution (source) is indeed DVD, than it might be something else; It might even be the source or your AVS-script.

BTW: Comparing results with jdobbs doesn't really work, except when you work from the exact same source offcourse.I thought we were talking here about backing-up BD (High Def) material, at least *I* was & have been. I took a 26Gb HD 1080p source to 4.7Gb HD 1080p DVD+5. "No worky".

G_M_C

4th September 2008, 22:26

I thought we were talking here about backing-up BD (High Def) material, at least *I* was & have been. I took a 26Gb HD 1080p source to 4.7Gb HD 1080p DVD+5. "No worky".

:p

That would indeed be (very) blocky ;)

See now why I wrote that you only compare encodes, if they're from the same source ;)

As iI stated somewhere in this thread; I try to use approx 10MBps for 1080p material, wich often comes down to approx 1 1/2 ~ 1 3/4 hours per DVD9 (with DTS audio, longer is possible with lower bitrate audio). Just use the bitratecalculator in Megui to figure out.

jdobbs

5th September 2008, 04:01

That would indeed be (very) blocky

Sorry... but I just don't agree, and neither do my 50 DVD discs containing HD content. I'll admit, though that I wouldn't have predicted it to come out so well a couple of months ago.

The H.264 codec is designed for exactly that kind of encoding. In most tests it is proven to require anywhere from half to one quarter the bitrate that an MPEG-2 needs for equivalent quality.

X264 does it well. And I'm very picky about my encodes...

G_M_C

5th September 2008, 08:50

Well, dont know what exactly you've encoded. For testing I've backed up a HDScape / HDWindow at 5mbps, and thats fine; But i think thats only because it mainy consists of static / verly low movement scenes. And I also tried one of my anime-disks, (and some animations) and those can be done at that bitrate (but i do see quality-loss in some).

But imagine to try and back up a very action packed movie, imagine something like "Batman - The dark knight" (wich is awesome in the theatre, a real tip to see it there !). Or a grainy movie like "The Prestige". You'll never get a movies like that backed up transparently @ 5mbps.

In my view bitrate isn't only based ont the target-medium, but also (and foremost) on its content. I've been thinking how to test the bitrate required, maybe a encode @ CRF 20 or so and than see what bitrate x264 comes up with on its own ?

jdobbs

5th September 2008, 12:13

Most of the movie encodes I do for DVD-5 come in with a QP in the low 20s. Most are at 21-22, which is well within the threshold of excellent reproduction and below the most commonly recommended value of 24. Of course in most cases the DVD-9's come in even better. DeathTheSheep's guides recommends somewhere int the range of 20-30. I see 21 used a lot in examples for very-high-quality reproduction.

G_M_C

5th September 2008, 15:00

Most of the movie encodes I do for DVD-5 come in with a QP in the low 20. Most are at 21-22, which is well within the threshold of excellent reproduction and below the most commonly recommended value of 24. Of course in most cases the DVD-9's come in even better. DeathTheSheep's guides recommends somewhere int the range of 20-30. I see 21 used a lot in examples for very-high-quality reproduction.

I'll try to get some form of "workflow" thought out this weekend. I have to make a backup anyway, and have the possibillity to try out some different approches. I'll keep your advise on QP in mind. When possible i'll post a few screenies to see the differences between some approches.

laserfan

5th September 2008, 16:13

FWIW this, my one/only attempt at BD backup so far, is being viewed on a 24" 1920x1200 PC display. It surely won't work on my 10' projection screen.

Someday I'll try converting to a DVD-9 but as I said already even upping the bitrate by 50% didn't make it acceptable to my eyes. Maybe the close-to 2x would though (guess I should test some more).

The movie LFODH does start with quite a challenging & dark Fox logo and credit sequence. Honestly I haven't looked past this at the conventional story portion; maybe it's alot better.

laserfan

5th September 2008, 16:21

The H.264 codec is designed for exactly that kind of encoding. In most tests it is proven to require anywhere from half to one quarter the bitrate that an MPEG-2 needs for equivalent quality.I should note also that the movie I did was h264 to start with. So I cut the bitrate to almost a sixth of the original. Honestly I didn't expect it to look great (and so it met my expectations!). :o

CORRECTION: Having gotten my standalone to play these discs, I finally watched LFODH in its entirety on my 1080p 10-foot screen and I could not find a single problem with it. Amazing quality on a DVD-5. Obviously my PC setup & decoder have badly misled me about the quality of re-encoding.

G_M_C

5th September 2008, 16:22

What do you think about this one;
http://tweakers.net/ext/f/7c13BeBemjTUHgyl3LcNFcBv/full.jpg

This one was backed up @ approx 11,7 mbps, resulting in 12 gigs approx (DVD9 + DVD5) with 1.5 mbps DTS btw.

jdobbs

5th September 2008, 18:34

The links says "You don't have permission" when I click on it.

Sophocles

6th September 2008, 01:12

This one was backed up @ approx 11,7 mbps, resulting in 12 gigs approx (DVD9 + DVD5) with 1.5 mbps DTS btw.

Nice! I would prefer to get the entire movie on a single disc.

The link worked just fine for me.

Jdobbs

What operating system are you using?

Sharc

6th September 2008, 08:42

What do you think about this one;
http://tweakers.net/ext/f/7c13BeBemjTUHgyl3LcNFcBv/full.jpg
Nice picture, but what should this single frame tell us? What has been the challenge?

jdobbs

6th September 2008, 11:52

The link worked just fine for me. It started working for me too.

What operating system are you using?
Windows Vista, SP1 on that one.

G_M_C

6th September 2008, 12:29

Nice picture, but what should this single frame tell us? What has been the challenge?

Well, its from the same movie laserfan is talking about, and he sees blocking @ 10mbps ... this is @ approx the same bitrate, and no blocking to be seen. So something else went wrong probably on his side ;)

It started working for me too.

I swiched to another (very fast) picserver ;)

Sharc

6th September 2008, 13:02

Well, its from the same movie laserfan is talking about, and he sees blocking @ 10mbps ...

Oh I see! Actually I was also wondering about laserfan's experience.
@laserfan: Perhaps you analyze the encode with avinaptic, just to make sure that the encoding parameters have been passed on to the encoder correctly.

Sophocles

6th September 2008, 15:39

Windows Vista, SP1 on that one

I kind of figured you were using Vista because of the message that you posted. I have Vista Home Premium on my dual core laptop. I've disabled many of the annoying Vista warnings.:D

laserfan

6th September 2008, 20:39

Well, its from the same movie laserfan is talking about, and he sees blocking @ 10mbps ... this is @ approx the same bitrate, and no blocking to be seen. So something else went wrong probably on his side That certainly went over my head! What frame is that--I haven't watched the movie yet!!!

You're wrong about my bitrate--I've said several times average bitrate I used was 4000kbps.

dannyv

8th September 2008, 21:29

The easiest way right now is to use the MOBILE encoding option with the "Experimental AVCHD, 1280x720" template. It will create a .TS file as output. Then just select that .TS from within TSREMUX (search DOOM9 for the TSREMUX thread) and tell it to output to Blu-ray format. Burn the contents of the output folder to DVD-R using ImgBurn in UDF 2.5 mode.

You may want to adjust the video bitrate depending on the movie size.

Greetings jdobbs,

Its been a while since I've been on the forum and was fasinated with your delving into H.264 and glad to see it added as an experimental template to the mobile profile.

As I have not looked at dvdrb in a while or completely read this thread my questions may be a bit premature so forgive me.

I've been capturing .ts streams from my cable DVR box for a while now in 1920x1080 and converting them down to 1280x720p divx using the divx HD profile. They look great but the compression is not as good as h.264.

I guess my question is the raw .ts files are 1920x1080 mpeg2 files. The file sizes are about 8GB per 1 hour of video.

Is there a way of getting the .ts file into RB and compressing them with the h.264 experimental template in the mobile profile?

jdobbs

9th September 2008, 18:32

No you wouldn't be able to input them into RB, as it only reads DVD sources.

But you should be able to convert the sources easy enough with FFDSHOW & the HAALI splitter, AVISYNTH, X264, and TSMUXER. If you install FFDSHOW and the HAALI Splitter it will allow you to play back the MPEG stream in .TS format. Then all you have to do is use DirectShowSource() within AVISYNTH to feed it to X264 for encoding. You can then use TSMUXER to mux into a TS or M2TS file. You could also reencode the audio.

shon3i

9th September 2008, 22:16

@jdobbs, where you find this values --vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500? and can i lower it to for example --vbv-bufsize 8000-10000 --vbv-maxrate 8000-10000 forBD 5/9 encoding, and can be buffer be same as max rate 17500? I saw sharktooth's AVCHD profile uses both on 16500. Clearly did i can use --vbv-bufsize 14500 --vbv-maxrate 17500 and be totaly safe for BD 5/9.

btw x264 PsyRDO build work fine with both trellis 1 or 2 and even with conjuction off PsyTrellis.

jdobbs

10th September 2008, 00:32

The rules for BD on DVD-5/9 is to have a maximum that doesn't exceed 2x disc speed. That would mean the total read bitrate available is somewhere slightly under 20,000. So by setting the maximum to 17500 you've given yourself a little leeway for multiple audio tracks (up to a total of about 2000Kbs). Remember -- the maximum bitrate doesn't affect your output size, it only sets the highest peaks for VBR.

I got the buffsize from some reading somewhere, I can't recall where, but it is within the limit for AVCHD. I'm sure it can be modified a little one way or the other without any problems.

I'd be careful about lowering the maximum bitrate, as it could have a negative impact on output quality (especially in visibly complex or high-action scenes) without any real benefit.

shon3i

10th September 2008, 17:57

I got the buffsize from some reading somewhere, I can't recall where, but it is within the limit for AVCHD. I'm sure it can be modified a little one way or the other without any problems.So you recommendation that keep around 14000? i confused because Shark's profiles uses 16500 for buffer and max bitrate. Realy i want to backup my bluray/hddvd titles, but i am not 100% sure that i make 100% readable on any BD or playstation 3 device.

G_M_C

10th September 2008, 20:30

So you recommendation that keep around 14000? i confused because Shark's profiles uses 16500 for buffer and max bitrate. Realy i want to backup my bluray/hddvd titles, but i am not 100% sure that i make 100% readable on any BD or playstation 3 device.

[...]
I got the buffsize from some reading somewhere, I can't recall where, but it is within the limit for AVCHD. I'm sure it can be modified a little one way or the other without any problems.
[...]

The specs come from the AVCHD specs-site (here: http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html ).

Max bitrate for DVD = 18mbps, I subtract 2 mbps to allow for audio (1.5 mbps DTS) and some subs;
Sharktooth only subtracts 1.5 mbps. I like to leave some headroom to be shure.

VBV-buffer is calculated from the system bitrate as specified on that same site, also minus the 2 mbps (Sharktooth 1.5)

jdobbs

10th September 2008, 22:21

Ahhh, there you go. Thanks.

Sophocles

10th September 2008, 22:46

The rules for BD on DVD-5/9 is to have a maximum that doesn't exceed 2x disc speed. That would mean the total read bitrate available is somewhere slightly under 20,000.

I'm assuming that you mean standalone play back units? I've done a few set to 30,000 and they played just fine on my PC BD players. I've also encoded at 17,500 recommended by jdobbs and the quality seems equal to the eye to those set to the much higher bit rate.

I am of course still quite the novice so I expect to run into some difficulties. The current problem is encode time which I hope to reduce a little by adding a quad core to one of my systems.

shon3i

10th September 2008, 23:05

Max rate is equal to the system bitrate as specified on that same site, also minus the 2 mbps (Sharktooth 1.5)
jdobbs setting for max rate isn't good then?

My understanding now is to set max rate to 18000 or jdobbs recommendation (17500 to leave room for some oversize) and set buffer to maxrate - room for audio/subs etc.? like jdobbs use 14745 that gives almost 3mbps. Is that right

G_M_C

10th September 2008, 23:11

jdobbs setting for max rate isn't good then?

My understanding now is to set max rate to 18000 or jdobbs recommendation (17500 to leave room for some oversize) and set buffer to maxrate - room for audio/subs etc.? like jdobbs use 14745 that gives almost 3mbps. Is that right

Sorry i meant vbv-buffer. The two parameters in my x264 commandline are;

--vbv-maxrate 16000 --vbv-bufsize 22000

jdobbs

11th September 2008, 01:52

I'm assuming that you mean standalone play back units? I've done a few set to 30,000 and they played just fine on my PC BD players. I've also encoded at 17,500 recommended by jdobbs and the quality seems equal to the eye to those set to the much higher bit rate.

I am of course still quite the novice so I expect to run into some difficulties. The current problem is encode time which I hope to reduce a little by adding a quad core to one of my systems. It all depends whether you are worried about compatibility. For example, even through a large GOP works fine on my player, I've changed it to 24 so I can ensure it is within standards. If in your case that isn't important, then you don't need to worry about it.

I've been watching these backups and I gotta' tell you -- they look damn good. I'm very pleased with this whole concept of backing up BDs to DVD-5/9. :)

G_M_C

11th September 2008, 09:15

[...] I'm very pleased with this whole concept of backing up BDs to DVD-5/9. :)

Me too, and i've been expirimenting quite a lot lately. But it is more complex than backing up DVD's. Not only because you must process the audio-streams (extract core EAC3/DTS and/or transmux into DTS or AC3), but the converting/muxing subtitles isnt straightforward too (DVD-RB can just "copy over" those subtile,- and audio-streams).

But what bothers me most about the whole affair is that you need so many different apps, and that there is only one "main application" that can mux to Blu-raystructure and works comfortably. And the big shame about that is that it doesnt seem te be developed anymore, and there are several negative points and/or bugs left to attent to. The simplest bug beeing that you have to set the framerate (just swich the option on), cause else you cant seek in the final stream.

(strangely; tsMuxeR DOES know the correct framerate, but somehow doesnt apply it correctly if you dont set it manually. This bug is proven by the fact that you only have to set the swich on, tsMuxeR has allready filled in the correct rate ...)

Another point is that tsMuxeR only supports .SRT-subtitles, this is a big reason muxing subs is more difficult; Simply because you need some other apps to demux the BR-subtitles and convert them to .SRT etc. So you need even more apps to get things done. Also tsMuxeR doesnt work right with some audio-streams, so you need another app to get that corrected. And tsMuxeR cant do "episodic disks" and/or menus.

Also some other apps are only in the beginning of their development; DGAVCIndex is still in it's alpha stages, and up till now there is no reliable way to index & import VC-1 streams into Avisynth. MPEG2 is the only format that has good support, through dgMPGIndex offcourse.

Another app. that you really need is EAC3to, a very good app, and i like it very much (allthought it's getting a tat complicated atm). The problem is not EAC3to itself, but in the different decoders / encoders you need to have installed to get it to work optimal, some of them difficult to get at and/or expensive (Surcode DTS for instance). EAC3to does work with -libav offcourse, but that library is far from ideal, especially where modern high-def audio and/or more than 5.1 channels is concerned (DTS-MA 7.1) and I read that regular AC3 seems to be broken because of development on EAC3 (at least in ffmpeg, wich is -libav's base).

So there are many apps that you need, many depend on others to work, and some dont really work in theit default state. All-in-all it's complicated buissness, and i have only spoken about BR-2-DVD5/9, backing-up to BD-R(E) will undoubtetly have its own problems (tsMuxeR doesnt work right with TrueHD for a start).

It's time to put more resources into development of a single app. But the most needed is a a good working version of tsMuxeR (or rather an Open Source alternative of it) and further development & addition of features. The rest could be build around that I guess.

jdobbs

11th September 2008, 11:15

Also some other apps are only in the beginning of their development; DGAVCIndex is still in it's alpha stages, and up till now there is no reliable way to index & import VC-1 streams into Avisynth. MPEG2 is the only format that has good support, through dgMPGIndex offcourse.I haven't had any problems encoding VC-1 (into AVC) using DirectshowSource(). I guess that doesn't mean there isn't some problem out there that may come along, though.Also tsMuxeR doesnt work right with some audio-streams, so you need another app to get that corrected. And tsMuxeR cant do "episodic disks" and/or menus.Hmm... I haven't had any problems with audio -- but then again, I always demux, reencode into AC-3, and remux using that.Another point is that tsMuxeR only supports .SRT-subtitles, this is a big reason muxing subs is more difficult; Simply because you ened some other apps to demux the BR-subtitles and convert them to .SRT etcI guess I just don't understand this one. I demux the subtitles I want and then just remux them when I build the blu-ray structure.Another app. that you really need is EAC3toI don't use EAC3to (don't know much about it). I use AVISYNTH with nicaudio.dl to convert to a pcm stream, and a combination of wavi.exe (to feed) and aften.exe to reencode. I've also used ffmpeg.exe, but it's quite a bit slower.

G_M_C

11th September 2008, 12:11

I haven't had any problems encoding VC-1 (into AVC) using DirectshowSource().Hmm... I haven't had any problems with audio -- but then again, I always demux, reencode into AC-3, and remux using that.

AC-3 is OK, but EAC3 / DTS-MA is problematic. I mentioned this because I expect BD-R(E) / 25 & Blu-ray burners to get cheaper in the coming time. Backing up on those media will get more interesting than, and you get a situation somewhat like now (backup DVD9 -> DVD5 compared to BD50 -> BD25). And with more capacity and higher max.transferrates it gets more interesting to keep the Highres audio and only reencode the video (more or less like DVD-RB does now).

shon3i

11th September 2008, 12:46

--vbv-maxrate 16000 --vbv-bufsize 22000How you use that high buffer? i am bit confused :)

Also i agree with you about quality BD-5/9 encodes comparing to original's

Not only because you must process the audio-streams (extract core EAC3/DTS and/or transmux into DTS or AC3), Can this do losslessly and how? I am interest because on Blu-Ray EAC3 isn't mandatory format, and probably most players will come with DD+ support.

I haven't had any problems encoding VC-1 (into AVC) using DirectshowSource(). I guess that doesn't mean there isn't some problem out there that may come along, though.Me too. But i prefer VC-1 in MKV tought eac3to.

G_M_C

11th September 2008, 12:58

How you use that high buffer? i am bit confused :)

Also i agree with you about quality BD-5/9 encodes comparing to original's

Can this do losslessly and how? I am interest because on Blu-Ray EAC3 isn't mandatory format, and probably most players will come with DD+ support.

Me too. But i prefer VC-1 in MKV tought eac3to.

Sorry to be slightly rude and/or short: Read around this forum, everything i said can befound elsewhere on the forum. My big post even gives most search-arguments needed ;)

Sophocles

11th September 2008, 22:16

jdobbs

11th September 2008, 23:02

I've made some progress on BD Rebuilder, so it may not be too long before some of the Rebuilder VIPs get access to the beta. No promises, though, I still have a few kinks to work out before I leave alpha stage.

I've done a small number of full backups -- but nothing too complex... and there are still a few issues. I have quite a bit of work left to do on the muxing code, though, right now I'm still using TSRemux (which isn't GPL) for that part.

I'm really getting spoiled. DVDs just don't seem to do it anymore after you watch a few of these BDs.

shon3i

12th September 2008, 07:36

@jdobbs, sorry if you alredy somwere told about features of BD Rebuilder, but i must ask, did BD Rebulder can preserve Menu's, and did rebulid HDDVD to Blu-Ray also preserving Menu's?

jdobbs

12th September 2008, 11:47

Preserving menus, yes. HD-DVD, No.

Sophocles

12th September 2008, 23:26

I've made some progress on BD Rebuilder, so it may not be too long before some of the Rebuilder VIPs get access to the beta.

I suspected that you were were working on or at least looking into BD to DVD-5-/9 backups (my first clue was that you told me as much). I know that a lot of people will be keenly interested in even your early outcomes.

Paddy97

13th September 2008, 12:56

I've made some progress on BD Rebuilder, so it may not be too long before some of the Rebuilder VIPs get access to the beta.

Wow, you are way further ahead then I ever thought. Following this thread daily. I am equally interested in the DVD -> H264/AC3 in a MKV profiles that you have talked about. Would make my mission to keep the kids DVDs safe a whole lot easier.

laserfan

13th September 2008, 15:00

Where do I sign? ;)

Wolfe999

13th September 2008, 17:40

@jdobbs: It's been some time since I've been in this thread, but the possibility that you make BD Rebuilder makes me very happy :)
I've donated a couple of times for DVD Rebuilder, so don't doubt that I' do the same for this new program, if you finally complete it. Anyway, thank you very much for making things much easier for those of us that know little to nothing of this things!

PS Just corrected some typos

Discoboy

13th September 2008, 19:51

Ready and waiting to test..... ;)

oRBIT

14th September 2008, 16:39

BD-Rebuilder? That's very nice news! :-)

Easy123

14th September 2008, 20:06

I´ve made some BD5/BD9 over the last Weeks using MeGUI,TSMuxer and some other Tools, but a BD-Rebuilder just sounds too good to be true. Would releave me from a lot of work if it works so seamless like DVD-Rebuilder did. Looking forward for a Release :D Great work jdobbs!

G_M_C

14th September 2008, 22:16

I just hope he has enough information to get the muxer/demuxer-part of his application right; Cause I think that will be the most difficult to code and get right/working properly :)

Sophocles

14th September 2008, 22:42

I just hope he has enough information to get the muxer/demuxer-part of his application right; Cause I think that will be the most difficult to code and get right/working properly

I remember when DVD RB was still in its early stages and couldn't handle multiangles/interleaves, but in time that got taken care of. Some of the advances will no doubt be incremental, but in time they will come.

laserfan

14th September 2008, 22:57

Then there's the matter of BD stb player compatibility. My first attempt using tsMuxeR and ImgBurn was not recognized by my player. :o

Sophocles

14th September 2008, 23:50

Then there's the matter of BD stb player compatibility. My first attempt using tsMuxeR and ImgBurn was not recognized by my player.

A few years ago there was a test done between computer HDPC players and $2000 players and the PC players won using either PowerDVD or WinDVD. Since then I've built my own and grew to realize the benefits of a home assembled system. There will be some compatibility issues with some systems and how they work with the method used to backup BD movies. I've only been doing BD backups for a short time and I'm having a 90% success ratio and some of my backups were HD DVD to BD. I am of course using only a home assembled playback system, and probably will for some time to come.

G_M_C

15th September 2008, 08:30

Then there's the matter of BD stb player compatibility. My first attempt using tsMuxeR and ImgBurn was not recognized by my player. :o

Haven't had any problems with my BD30. It has played all the BD5's + BD9's I've made; As long as I make them according to the specs given earlier in this tread.

Haven't tried DTS-MA or TrueHD though, so i can't be shure on that, but according to Duppie's research it should work (with some tricks). But I dont think it is worth it on BD 5 / 9 projects, imply cause the high bitrate requirements of these tracks force you to lower the video bitrate too much imho. DVD simly has not got "what it takes" for those high requirements.

oRBIT

15th September 2008, 10:53

Will the upcoming BD-Rebuilder support BD-50 to BD-25 conversion aswell?

G_M_C

15th September 2008, 10:55

Will the upcoming BD-Rebuilder support BD-50 to BD-25 conversion aswell?

BD-Rebuilder has nothing to do with support for different devices. It's the other way around, do those players support DIY BD9/BD5 ?

jdobbs

15th September 2008, 10:56

Then there's the matter of BD stb player compatibility. My first attempt using tsMuxeR and ImgBurn was not recognized by my player. :o Make sure you have ImgBurn set to output UDF 2.50.

I created a shortcut on my desktop that uses this command line:

"c:\Program Files\Imgburn\imgburn.exe" /MODE BUILD /BUILDMODE DEVICE /DEST G: /FILESYSTEM "UDF" /UDFREVISION "2.50"

I then select the output directory from TSMUXER and burn.

oRBIT

15th September 2008, 10:57

BD-Rebuilder has nothing to do with support for different devices. It's the other way around, do those players support DIY BD9/BD5 ?

I meant BD50/BD25 media. And If I am not mistaken, BD9/BD5 is a part of the blu-ray standard so it should work on all blu-ray players(?)

jdobbs

15th September 2008, 10:58

Will the upcoming BD-Rebuilder support BD-50 to BD-25 conversion aswell? You'd be able to set the output size to anything, including BD sizes.

jdobbs

15th September 2008, 11:05

I meant BD50/BD25 media. And If I am not mistaken, BD9/BD5 is a part of the blu-ray standard so it should work on all blu-ray players(?) BD-9 is included. Here's (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11392) a pretty good link with some useful information. It says both single-layer and dual-layer are supported. But it calls both "BD-9" which is a little confusing. BD-5 may be only AVCHD, but I'm not sure. It plays on my Sony standalone.

By the way, the documentation in the link says BD-9 uses a 3x spin rate as it's limitation (rather than 2x).

G_M_C

15th September 2008, 11:18

BD-9 is included. Here's (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11392) a pretty good link with some useful information. BD-5 may be only AVCHD, but I'm not sure. It plays on my Sony standalone.

By the way, the documentation in the link says BD-9 uses a 3x spin rate as it's limitation (rather than 2x).

:)

That is a very usefull link :thanks:

EDIT: I'm not shure about the 3x speed. But i'll expiriment with some DVD+RW's to see :)

laserfan

15th September 2008, 19:56

Haven't had any problems with my BD30. It has played all the BD5's + BD9's I've made; As long as I make them according to the specs given earlier in this tread...

Make sure you have ImgBurn set to output UDF 2.50. I created a shortcut...
Well I thought I'd done my BD5 right. Windows says "CD Drive, UDF2.5" then ImgBurn says "UDF (2.50)".

But then I notice ImgBurn also says its Book Type is DVD-ROM so that must be what's wrong? I burned it with my Pioneer burner, will have to try another using my LG instead. Thanks for the replies.

Sophocles

17th September 2008, 22:11

I'm ready for some serious BD to DVD-5 and 9 re encoding. I installed my new quad core Q9650 last night and overclocked it to a little over 4 GHz and began stress testing. It's passed everything so far so now's the time to give it a decent tryout for the purpose that I purchased it for.:D

jdobbs

Let us know when you have something to test. I'm assuming that you are working with X.264?

jdobbs

18th September 2008, 12:21

Will do. 4Ghz? Wow. :scared:

edong

19th September 2008, 07:54

Sorry for the intrusion. Using tsDemuxGUI, I tried to convert my MPEG2 file created using CapDVHS to capture from Sony HC-3. When I play the DVD+R in my son's PS3, it briefly showed AVCHD then blank screen. I used the default settings on the tsDemuxGUI. Seems the others have some success doing this route. Any suggestions? Thanks.

laserfan

19th September 2008, 14:26

...it briefly showed AVCHD then blank screen.That's what happened to mine (actually, my standalone player showed "Blu-Ray" briefly then errored) and I think it's my burner. Haven't gotten round to trying another burner yet. How'd you burn yours (software & drive)?

Sophocles

19th September 2008, 23:47

That's what happened to mine (actually, my standalone player showed "Blu-Ray" briefly then errored) and I think it's my burner. Haven't gotten round to trying another burner yet. How'd you burn yours (software & drive)?

I don't know how jdobbs does his but after the re encode is finished I use image burn to convert it to an ISO so that I can mount it and play it back to check for errors. If no errors show up then I burn with imgburn to my good old standard NEC DVDRW drives on type 5 or 9 Ridata media.

jdobbs

20th September 2008, 04:14

Sophocles

20th September 2008, 19:09

I bring up ImgBurn with the command line I mentioned in post#316.

Certainly sounds more efficient but I'm driven to check the result before burning.

I just converted The Italian Job from HD DVD to BD and it came in at 4.37 gb which is calling pretty close but it did burn to a single layer. The encode time took 4 hours and 18 minutes which suggests that I saved around 3 hours or so by moving to quad core. The movie played perfectly all the way through.

AT 4 Ghz my memory was running at 1145 MHz which is a little far out of spec although it seemed to work fine, and passed all the stress tests that I threw at it. To be safe before encoding I dropped the speed to 3.915 GHz which also allowed me to drop the vcore to 1.28V. The core temperatures never exceeded 56C so I guess it will do until I can get some 1150 RAM.

laserfan

20th September 2008, 20:21

I bring up ImgBurn with the command line I mentioned in post#316. I then just choose the directory that was created by TSREMUX (I usually name it the same as the volume label) that contains the BDMV and CERTIFICATE folders.

I has worked every time for me. But I've only tried in on the one standalone player I have (Sony BDP-S301).I made another DVD+5, this time using the clip "Coming Soon to Blu-Ray" and same result: my standalone recognizes it briefly as a BD disc, but then immediately "Disc Error". Using ImgBurn and UDF 2.50 and this time an LG burner, but my LG standalone doesn't like it (BH200).

If anyone here has any ideas I'm all ears. Seems tho that my standalone is incompatible--at least Cyberlink PDVD sees & plays these as BD discs... :(

Sophocles

20th September 2008, 23:09

laserfan

Outside of encoding and playing there's also media and burn speeds. What brand of media and burn speed do you use?

G_M_C

21st September 2008, 08:26

[...]
Seems tho that my standalone is incompatible--at least Cyberlink PDVD sees & plays these as BD discs... :(

I've allways made the assmuption that you have a Panasonic bd30, but I get the feeling that i jumped to conclusions .... so, sorry. What player do you have ?

laserfan

22nd September 2008, 15:40

I've always made the assumption that you have a Panasonic bd30, but I get the feeling that i jumped to conclusions .... so, sorry. What player do you have ?

...my LG standalone doesn't like it (BH200).
I use only Verbatim DVD+R; don't recall my ImgBurn speed setting...I'll give that a look.

G_M_C

22nd September 2008, 16:50

When i google on LG BH200 I get some messages that LG disabled playing AVCHD on their players as from a certain firmware. Maybe google on it more ...
See also; CLICK HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14366629#post14366629)

turbojet

23rd September 2008, 15:22

BD Rebuilder sounds very interesting especially with the ability to keep menus.
Have you been able to keep extras too?
If so, untouched and/or encoded?

laserfan

23rd September 2008, 15:23

When i google on LG BH200 I get some messages that LG disabled playing AVCHD on their players as from a certain firmware.Hmmm, I didn't know tsMuxeR was making an AVCHD-spec disc? EDIT: OK I did some surfing and it appears tsMuxeR is NOT making the AVCHD structure, but rather the BD structure my player wants, so the firmware caveat seems not to apply??? Maybe I should try tsRemux Blu-Ray output to see if I get the same bad result.

Also I suppose I could try reverting to an older BH200 firmware to check... :eek:

jdobbs

24th September 2008, 18:47

Interestingly my player reads DVD-5 discs as "AVCHD" and DVD-9 discs as "BD-ROM" even though they have the exact same structure -- go figure.

jdobbs

24th September 2008, 18:53

BD Rebuilder sounds very interesting especially with the ability to keep menus.
Have you been able to keep extras too?
If so, untouched and/or encoded?I've been successful so far. The beta release will determine if there are any skeletons in the closet (I'm sure there will be). One thing that won't be transferable is some of the audio streams like LPCM. Some of them are huge. So far I've been reencoding them as AC-3 and changing the associated tables to match. It's worked on the ones I've tried, but you never know if another disc or another player may catch something. The beta will tell all.

mpiper

24th September 2008, 23:56

So! When does the beta come out for us DVD-RB Pro users? I can't wait to take a look at this and see how well it works!!

Mike

G_M_C

25th September 2008, 09:38

So! When does the beta come out for us DVD-RB Pro users? I can't wait to take a look at this and see how well it works!!

Mike

I hope it isnt only forDVD-RB Pro users, cause i want a chance to seethe progress too. I hope the test is more spread across, for instance people who allready do this "by hand"; Or have commented in this thread/across this board, and from whom JDobbs might be able to get relevant feedback.

(Testers have to at least have a stand-allone player to test. Imho that stand-allone has to be a NON PS3, cause PS3 can play out-of-spec AVC's more often. Also testers have to preferably have a Blu-ray drive for in their PC's too)

jdobbs

25th September 2008, 13:52

I'll post a link on DOOM9 and also mail it to DVD-RB Pro users.

Testers have to at least have a stand-allone player to test You're right. I'll probably ask that any bug report be accompanied by the player type.

I've been pulled away by deadlines on my real job. Won't be able to get back to it for a week or so. It needs more work and alpha testing before I release it.

Sophocles

25th September 2008, 17:42

Testers have to at least have a stand-allone player to test

Then I guess that leaves me out since I have no intentions of replacing my home built system with one purchased in a store.

JJB

26th September 2008, 01:34

I have been watching this thread with great interest for a long time. If BD-rebuilder comes comes thru Alpha and is finalized as a release then I will have no choice except to update to a stand alone BD player, a BD player\burner for my PC and purchase BD-Rebuilder as many others will do the same.

I currently have a 55' Sony and a Oppo upconvert that makes me very satisfied with the viewing of my DVD collection but the thought of this makes me drool with future anticipation.

If anyone can make it happen It's jdobbs

Sophocles

26th September 2008, 03:01

I will have no choice except to update to a stand alone BD player, a BD player\burner for my PC

While I understand that many use standalone store bought players, I prefer to build my own. In my view homemade HTPC players are superior in just about every way imaginable to them when done right. I have two PC players at this time including one that is a BD burner. BD RB only requires a PC BD player for ripping, but it doesn't require a BD burner to work. The results can be burned with a standard DVD-+R, and then played back on a BD player including standalone players. I realize that PC players rarely suffer the playback flaws and glitches that are common in home units, and as a result pose obstacles to finding inconsistencies while still in development. I was only commenting that if having a standalone unit is a requirement for testing then I won't be meeting that standard.

jdobbs

26th September 2008, 03:17

I didn't say you would have to have a standalone to test. I was just saying I would ask for the type of equipment. That way I can distinguish what/where something needs to be fixed. My "you're right" was more aimed at the fact, as was mentioned, that a lot of non standalone equipment (PCs, PS-3, etc) may not require strict compliance. When I first started working on DVD Rebuilder I had an off-brand player that would play a piece of toast if you let it spin long enough. It led me down a couple of rabbit holes because I thought I was hitting closer than I was. You have to be careful and make sure it gets tested on the hard ones.

G_M_C

26th September 2008, 08:40

Then I guess that leaves me out since I have no intentions of replacing my home built system with one purchased in a store.

I didn't say you would have to have a standalone to test. I was just saying I would ask for the type of equipment. That way I can distinguish what/where something needs to be fixed. My "you're right" was more aimed at the fact, as was mentioned, that a lot of non standalone equipment (PCs, PS-3, etc) may not require strict compliance. When I first started working on DVD Rebuilder I had an off-brand player that would play a piece of toast if you let it spin long enough. It led me down a couple of rabbit holes because I thought I was hitting closer than I was. You have to be careful and make sure it gets tested on the hard ones.

Thats what i meant too, but i didnt come out right.

If you have a MMPC with a Blu-ray player, you could theoretically even play x264 L5.1 encoded MKV's straight of the disk. And you would probably be better of just backing up to Harddrive, since those are much cheaper per GiB.

Making backups for stand-allones is harder, since you have to make backups just the right way, so that players treat them as BD9 ... And some players are really fussy.

@ laserfan;
When I started making BD9's, the newest firware (1.7) for my Pana bd30 wasnt out yet, and my player was really fussy about disks too; In fact it stuck to the AVCHD standard like it was paranoid. The files i made HAD TO BE @ exactly 24.000 fps (not 23,976) and the audio HAD TO BE Dolby digital with max 640kbps.

I made a standard AVS-script where i opened my file and audio, converted the framerate and used SoundOut to make new audio-file, AC3 @ 640/448 kbps. After that I commented out SoundOut and started encoding the video. Use all the settings on Megui / x264 (watch vbv-maxrate & vbv-buffer etc; See some other post I've made) / tsMuxeR as usual.

Happily the new firmware helped out with my player, so now it plays allmost everything i throw at it (havent tried VC-1 yet, cause i have no samples; But i confirmed DTS-MA this week). So, indeed, downgrading Firmware might help on your part, else try making those 24 fps-versions.

The AVS I used looked something like this( Its very standard; In fact, you could cut & paste most of it out of the AviSynth manual);

Video=DGAVCDec ("the AVC file to open") <---- Can also be DGMPGDec ()or for instance Direcshowsource ()
Audio=Nic???Source ("the audiofile to open") <---- see NicAudio helpfile
Audiodub (video,audio)
Assumefps (24,1,true)
SoundOut () <---- comment out on video-run

PS: Make a small project, so you can use DVD+RW's to test; Saves making coasters ;)

Sophocles

26th September 2008, 14:24

I was replying to the line below.

Testers have to at least have a stand-allone player to test

I can see why that would be important since that is probably how most will be testing the results. I wasn't taking it personally and probably should have added a smiley emoticon to express that.:rolleyes:

If and when standalone players enter into an affordable price bracket and can come a little closer to matching my home built units I just might spring for one, but for now home built gives me so much more for my money.

This is the player in my HTPC LITE-ON Black 4X Blu-ray DVD-ROM 12X DVD-ROM 32X CD-ROM SATA Internal 4X Blu-ray DVD-ROM Model DH-4O1S-11 - OEM

This is my rip and player on my personal PC which is also really just another HTPC since it has a 24 inch Samsun S-PVA panel that can play up to 1920 X 1200.

LG Black 6X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 6X Blu-ray DVD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA Internal Blu-ray Burner Super Multi Blu-ray Disc Burner & HD DVD-ROM Drive Model GGW-H20L

I needed the HD DVD so that I can convert them to BD as well, but the two players are serving me quite well for now.

laserfan

26th September 2008, 14:29

@ laserfan;
When I started making BD9's, the newest firware (1.7) for my Pana bd30 wasnt out yet, and my player was really fussy about disks too; In fact it stuck to the AVCHD standard like it was paranoid. The files i made HAD TO BE @ exactly 24.000 fps (not 23,976) and the audio HAD TO BE Dolby digital with max 640kbps.

I made a standard AVS-script where i opened my file and audio, converted the framerate and used SoundOut to make new audio-file, AC3 @ 640/448 kbps. After that I commented out SoundOut and started encoding the video. Use all the settings on Megui / x264 (watch vbv-maxrate & vbv-buffer etc; See some other post I've made) / tsMuxeR as usual.

Happily the new firmware helped out with my player, so it plays allmost everything i throw at it (havent tried VC-1 yet, cause i have no samples; But i confirmed DTS-MA this week). So, indeed, downgrading Firmware might help on your part, else try making those 24 fps-versions, and try that.

The AVS I used looked something like this( Its very standard; In fact, you could cut & paste most of it out of the AviSynth manual);

Video=DGAVCDec ("the AVC file to open") <---- Can also be DGMPGDec ()or for instance Direcshowsource ()
Audio=Nic???Source ("the audiofile to open") <---- see NicAudio helpfile
Audiodub (video,audio)
Assumefps (24,1,true)
SoundOut () <---- comment out on video-run

PS: Make a small project, so you can use DVD+RW's to test; Saves making coasters ;)
Thanks G_M_C for your comments. I'm using the .m2ts of "Coming Soon to Blu-Ray" preview (only a couple hundred MB size). Latest "coaster" for my LG BH200 was made with tsRemux. While the structure looked identical to the tsMuxeR (could these possibly be more confusing? ;)) the file sizes were different and it still didn't play on the BH200, while still played via PDVD Ultra (PC) as a Blu-Ray disc.

I have some DVD-RWs but need to pick-up some DVD+RW and do more trials. Thing is, I don't want to get too fancy about the conversions i.e. make them "fit" the BH200--would rather have the BH200 play everything it SHOULD and maybe will try the firmware downgrade bit.

G_M_C

26th September 2008, 14:55

Thanks G_M_C for your comments. I'm using the .m2ts of "Coming Soon to Blu-Ray" preview (only a couple hundred MB size). Latest "coaster" for my LG BH200 was made with tsRemux. While the structure looked identical to the tsMuxeR (could these possibly be more confusing? ;)) the file sizes were different and it still didn't play on the BH200, while still played via PDVD Ultra (PC) as a Blu-Ray disc.

I have some DVD-RWs but need to pick-up some DVD+RW and do more trials. Thing is, I don't want to get too fancy about the conversions i.e. make them "fit" the BH200--would rather have the BH200 play everything it SHOULD and maybe will try the firmware downgrade bit.

Actually, on the video-part of the story the 24.000 fps wasn't bad; It's the original rate it was displayed in the theatres. The thing that bugged most was the audio-part of the whole idea; I prefer a good DTS-track above an ac3 640 kbps-track. On my system (with an Onkyo TX-SR875 THX ultra setup) its an audible difference.

(PS: Thats also why i'm so satisfied with the succesfull test of a DTS-MA track :) )

Sophocles

27th September 2008, 20:16

If you have a MMPC with a Blu-ray player, you could theoretically even play x264 L5.1 encoded MKV's straight of the disk. And you would probably be better of just backing up to Harddrive, since those are much cheaper per GiB.

The purchase price for a type 5 disc is less than $.06 per gigabyte but a gigabyte on a 500 Gig hard drive is about 3 to 4 times that depending on make. I also prefer to do more than just store video. I want lead in and lead out, the ability to bookmark, as well as chapters. In short I want most of the functions one expects from a DVD or BD.

Sharc

28th September 2008, 14:56

@jdobbs
Will BD-Rebuilder also support the conversion of BD to standard mpeg-2 DVD5 / DVD9 for playback on legacy DVD standalones? Any plans?

jdobbs

28th September 2008, 15:50

None at all.

I could probably take the feature and output it as a movie-only DVD easy enough, but converting menus and extras would be over-the-top in terms of difficulty.

Sharc

28th September 2008, 18:27

I did not even think about menus and extras. Movie-only would meet the purpose best anyway in view of preserving the quality of the BD.
There is a similar discussion ongoing here btw:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1189321#post1189321

jdobbs

28th September 2008, 20:24

It makes a lot more sense to consider going the other way (DVD to BD-5) -- the quality you're going to get out of MPEG-2 at DVD speeds is the limit, not the source quality. As they say -- you can only fit five pounds of sh*t into a five pound bag.

Sharc

28th September 2008, 21:19

All true, but I cannot playback a BD-5 on a "legacy" DVD standalone, and by far not all DVD are well mastered, means if those are converted to BD-5....garbage in, garbage out. I would expect in general good/better quality from BD sources though, even if downconverted to mpeg2 - but maybe I am wrong.

jdobbs

28th September 2008, 23:26

Yeah. I was just thinking about that. The "Lonesome Dove" cut that I bought on DVD was really disappointing. It was 4:3 and very washed-out/blocky throughout.

While they didn't do a stellar job on the blu-ray version of "Lonesome Dove" either, it is infinitely better than the DVD version. So I guess there are times you can just do better by downconverting. Not sure how I'd do that with DVD Rebuilder since it's locked into VIDEO_TS format for its source. But I could probably add it as an option at some point to BD Rebuilder.

Sharc

28th September 2008, 23:47

...... But I could probably add it as an option at some point to BD Rebuilder.
Thanks for considering.:)

blutach

29th September 2008, 00:13

As they say -- you can only fit five pounds of sh*t into a five pound bag.Please note that the amount a bag will hold is based on volume and not weight. Of course, if the bag is constructed of lightweight materials, it will break after 5 lbs. :D :D :D

Regards

jdobbs

29th September 2008, 00:30

Ok. You can only fit 5 pounds of sh*t in a bag that has an maximum limit of 5 pounds... at least that was my experience with burning bags on porches when I was a kid.

A few years ago that was a fairly common saying and everyone took it as fact... then Terry Welsh applied Lempel-Ziv compression to data, and I realized that if take the water out of the sh*t -- you can fit much more...

I retract my statement. :)

kevdriver

29th September 2008, 03:20

Jdobbs, Been reading through this thread for a while now. I have been doing this exact thing recently but by other means then backing-up........ :rolleyes: I also have used DVDrebuilder for several years now (pro) and would be very interesting in testing this upcoming release for you. I have a standard stand alone player ( Yamaha) and a BD stand alone player ( Sony BDP-S350 ), as well as a GGW-H20L in my puter.

This possiblity of doing BDs' to DVD 5 and DVD9s in very intriqing and if you need help testing this I'd be happy to give it a whirl. :)

My results from putting a BD movie only with 5/1 audio on to a dvd5 has been great. The sony player recognizes it as a BD and it looks and sounds great. It would be nice to be able to backup my own few BD movies though for prosperity purposes.

dontasciime

29th September 2008, 10:37

Hopefully it will be available to buy/donate/soon

Sophocles

29th September 2008, 22:45

kevdriver?

I used to know someone with that nick, but he hasn't been around for quite some time. I'm guessing that you are one and the same?

OK guys! I just received a financial windfall called "MAP (Merit award program" which was rather sizable and since BD players are coming down in price I should be able to spring for one. Not having had any real interest in them (but my wife will) until now I need some recommendations.

jdobbs

30th September 2008, 02:14

The Sony BDP-S350 has dropped about $100 and is now running about $299. I got the BDP-S301 and have been very satisfied.

kevdriver

30th September 2008, 06:18

The only experience I've had is with the Sony 350. I've been very pleased with it up to now. Works well and seems to produce a fine HD video and audio.

@Soph..... check PM. :thanks:

G_M_C

30th September 2008, 08:44

kevdriver?
[...]
Not having had any real interest in them (but my wife will) until now I need some recommendations.

I'm a fan of the Panasonics; Good firmware-support, fast startup times, and with recent firmwares it plays everything i have thrown at it, including DTS-MA and so forth (except AVC @ 576p :confused: ).

My tip: Dont hasten your decision, spend some time on AVSForum's Blu-ray section (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=149). Just browse around there, and mind things like frequent posts with firmware-updates (might be a signal for good support), or frequent posts concerning bugs. The idea beeing that you get a general idea about a player.

But also keep in mind that this is the internet and people will post problems sooner that merrits; So if you find very little about a rerasonably well-know player, it could very well be that it also is a good player :cool:

Sophocles

30th September 2008, 22:11

My tip: Dont hasten your decision, spend some time on AVSForum's Blu-ray section.

Sounds like a plan that hopefully will see some of these new lowered prices come into effect. I figure either Sony or Panasonic would be good choices since they both support AVCHD. I have decent playing home built systems so I'm in no hurry, but the wife will enjoy a standalone better.

jdobbs

1st October 2008, 15:25

BD Rebuilder is coming along nicely. I think it's close to being ready for beta...

rack04

1st October 2008, 15:30

BD Rebuilder is coming along nicely. I think it's close to being ready for beta...

Great news. Thanks jdobbs.

kevdriver

1st October 2008, 17:02

BD Rebuilder is coming along nicely. I think it's close to being ready for beta...

Sounds great.......... Now that being said..... If you need a extra tester to run this before commercial release........... :devil::devil::p Just dying to try this out !

rack04

1st October 2008, 17:38

Are the X264 settings going to be customizable and are you planning on using a current version of x264 with the latest patches?

jdobbs

1st October 2008, 19:40

Are the X264 settings going to be customizable and are you planning on using a current version of x264 with the latest patches?
You'll be locked (for the most part) into the settings. That's the only way to avoid having to respond to self-inflicted injuries caused by settings. I may open it up a little later.

I will require using the version shipped with BD-RB for any bug reports. Again, there are so many versions/patches of x264 floating around that doing it any other way just causes problems.

kevdriver

1st October 2008, 19:56

Actually that makes sense for the beta.......... test it in a set enviornment and see how she goes............ at least any buggies that may creep up you'll know everybody is using the same variables.

GZZ

1st October 2008, 22:48

It will be great to test BD-RB and see how it works. Will the beta be a movie-only (maybe selectable audio and maybe subtitles ??) and is it possible to include menu (reencoding it offcourse and then include it) ?

jdobbs

1st October 2008, 23:05

Doing movie-only is very easy. Right now I'm testing complete backups (with menus) in the alpha.

Sophocles

1st October 2008, 23:26

Doing movie-only is very easy. Right now I'm testing complete backups (with menus) in the alpha.

Generally I do movie only unless I am working with episodic's or concert footage which can have both LPCM and AC3 tracks. On some movies I have menus if it contains multiple surround sound versions since I always have more than one playback station. The capability of H/X.264 compression quality could make keeping menus more attractive.

dansanhdieu

2nd October 2008, 00:15

Certainly sounds more efficient but I'm driven to check the result before burning.

I just converted The Italian Job from HD DVD to BD and it came in at 4.37 gb which is calling pretty close but it did burn to a single layer. The encode time took 4 hours and 18 minutes which suggests that I saved around 3 hours or so by moving to quad core. The movie played perfectly all the way through.

Dear Sophocles ,

I got a E6320 running at 1.86Ghz at the moment that i am looking to upgrade to Quadcore . Base on recent test and calculation it will took me 24 hours to encode 2 hours movie to 1080p 2 pass . Will i just need to upgrade the CPU or also the RAM ? Can you tell me how long is your movie that took 4 hour to encode and also your full spec ?

I done a few successful back up from BD to DVD5 and looking to do more in the future but 24 hours for a movie is too much time

jdobbs

2nd October 2008, 00:19

I'd say that's the biggest drawback to BD backups right now. They just take a long, long time. But -- if you go back to 2004 when DVD Rebuilder came out -- the backup times for DVD seemed long too. It doesn't take long for processors to catch up to the need. In the meantime you have to always assume you are going to let your backup run overnight.

Sophocles

2nd October 2008, 02:39

dansanhdieu

A quad core of similar speed will shave significant time off but get a quad that is also a core 2 but with a higher clock speed, and you will shave a lot of time off. Right now the Q6600's are going for less than $200 and with a modest overclock to 2.8 you will greatly increase your encode speeds. You didn't tell me what the make and model of your motherboard is but it is very likely that you will only need to upgrade your processor and you stay with your current memory.

What jdobbs says is true about early encodes with RB. It used to take me about 3 and a half hours for a typical movie. I've built a new rig recently and that has given me a lot of extra horse power that should keep my BD copies to less than 6 hours and most less than 5 hours.

dansanhdieu

2nd October 2008, 02:48

dansanhdieu

A quad core of similar speed will shave significant time off

I got a Gigabyte Motherboard 965P-DS3P which can handle the Q6600 as it say on the cover . Look like Q6600 is the sweet pot right now for quadcore cpu . 24hours is too long for 1 movie i will be happy with around 6-7 hours

oRBIT

2nd October 2008, 08:36

GZZ

2nd October 2008, 10:08

Another thing that came to my mind. Have anyone of you figured out how to take bluray subtitles (normally in 1920x1080 resolution) and 'reencode' them to 1280x720 so they can be shown on a 720p movie. At the moment I think the only solution is to do OCR on the bluray subtitles and then use the SRT file ind tsremux. But doing the OCR spelling errors and all that will happen. I havent found any solution to this. (thats why I only do 1920x1080 rip with the org. subtitles from Bluray).

But anyone got a solution for this and what about BD-RB, will it handle subtitles correct for 720p movies ?

jdobbs

2nd October 2008, 12:13

I haven't added resizing for that very reason -- but frankly I haven't done any testing. For all I know the original 1920x1080 subtitle might work on a resized 1280x720 movie... anyone tried it?

JohnGalt

2nd October 2008, 13:21

@jdobbs: Can you *please* use gif/png images as buttons in the window classic skin in BD-Rebuilder instead of JPEG's as you're obviously using now in DVD Rebuilder? :)
There's lots of "noise" in the drive-buttons which is equal to high compression jpeg's, anyway it annoys me. :-)

You can always use a different skin. My preference is for "Teck Original." Alternatively, you can, of course, design your own!

GZZ

2nd October 2008, 18:34

Ulf

2nd October 2008, 20:25

I have tried to mux 1920x1080 subtitles to a 1280x720 movie and the solution is that you can select the subtitles, but none are shown. I think they are shown outside of the picture. Thats why I dont do 1280x720 movies and stick to 1920x1080.

If anyone know how to resize the subtitles from full to half HD then please advice. :)

I make a post in the Subtitles section on that subject (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=121535&page=36). It deals with a way of downscaling 1080p subtitles to 720p with high quality.

dansanhdieu

3rd October 2008, 07:04

I have successful back up the Internal Affairs Hong Kong Movie with 1 5.1 sound track and 1 subtitle track using Ripbot264 . It took me total of 20 hours to encode it to BD-5 .

Test the disc with my LG Computer Drive and PS3 both working perfect . Thank for all the help in this thread .

During the playback on my PS3 i have found a problem with the BD-5 when you press skip to next chapter , the screen turn off flickering go black and took a few sec before it jump to next chapter . Tried again the original disc skip chapter fine . After 1 hour playing around with my PS3 settings i found out that i need to turn off BD 1080p 24 Hz Output setting in my PS3 in order for the BD-5 jump back and forward on chapter .

Strangely with the Original Disc working fine with bot setting ON and OFF . Have anyone here got this problem before ?

jdobbs

4th October 2008, 02:52

I make a post in the Subtitles section on that subject (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=121535&page=36). It deals with a way of downscaling 1080p subtitles to 720p with high quality.Cool. I'll check it out and if it is had potential I'll see what I can do about adding it.

laserfan

4th October 2008, 14:56

I expended bandwidth earlier in this thread about the BD5 creation process resulting in a "Disc Error" on my BD player, the LG BH200. G_M_C mentioned that the newest firmware disabled AVCHD compatibility--well I found out that it also disabled BD5/BD9 compatibility. Why, I have no idea, but I downgraded the BH200's firmware to the previous version and my several discs-thought-to-be-coasters now play just fine. So I'm primed/ready for BD Rebuilder! :)

Sharc

4th October 2008, 17:42

Just curious: Will a future version of BD Rebuilder include a crf (1-pass) mode with a "size vs crf factor estimate" pass?:rolleyes:

jdobbs

4th October 2008, 23:56

I already have it in -- but it isn't very accurate.

laserfan

8th October 2008, 15:44

It all depends whether you are worried about compatibility. For example, even through a large GOP works fine on my player, I've changed it to 24 so I can ensure it is within standards. If in your case that isn't important, then you don't need to worry about it.

I've been watching these backups and I gotta' tell you -- they look damn good. I'm very pleased with this whole concept of backing up BDs to DVD-5/9. :)Now that my standalone is playing my BD5 discs, I have come to the realization that my earlier reports of "blockiness" and posterization appear unfounded and are owing to my PC playback!!! :eek:

Omigosh, if I use PDVD, or MPC with the Cyberlink h264 decoder, I get the originals to display perfect frames, albe-them stuttery, and the conversions play smoothly, but with blockiness!!!! My gosh, I don't know what this is about. If I de-select the Cyberlink decoder and use ffdshow/libavcodec, I do also see perfect (non-blocky) frames from my much-lower bitrate x264 encodings, but they don't play smoothly. So I can get "smooth but blocky" or "stuttery but unblocky" but as a result my PC as set-up is useless to ID quality-out from my conversion process.

I am appalled that this occurs and I can't seem to figure out how to fix it--if anyone has tips for me I'd sure like to hear them. As I said I'm using now MediaPlayerClassic and Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra v7.3 and know just enough about MPC filter settings to be dangerous. :o

Next I'll download CoreAVC and see if that mates-up with MPC to give best playback (do I get the $15 or the $20 version?).

BTW I read somewhere that the keyint value strictly/only affects seekability and not compatibility fwiw...

jdobbs

8th October 2008, 16:20

laserfan

8th October 2008, 17:08

I recently stopped using CoreAVC and went back to FFDSHOW as my default codec. I found a couple of commercial sources that would create errors with CoreAVS when used with AVISYNTH, but played fine in FFDSHOW. The speed increase wasn't much greater anyway.Thanks for that. I will focus on ffdshow then for the time being. Do you (or anyone) have any idea why these codecs might behave as I described? Like they have two modes, one that prioritizes Quality (accuracy) and another that prioritizes Speed (smoothness of fps)? This really has my head spinning around...

Sophocles

10th October 2008, 02:56

Omigosh, if I use PDVD, or MPC with the Cyberlink h264 decoder, I get the originals to display perfect frames, albe-them stuttery

I use PowerDVD to playback my copies and they play wonderfully. The only complaint that I have was that I had PowerDVD 7 to play back HD DVD and then HD DVD went down so PowerDVD began version 8 for BD but had no support for HD DVD. So I had both versions 7 and 8 installed and then along comes an update for version 7. The update made version compatible with BD which means that it now plays both HD DVD and BD which also means that I didn't need to update to version 8.

OK enough with the rant. PowerDVD ultra versions does everything that I want it to do without any sign of stuttering. I would have considered a free version playback but I wanted all the surround sound codecs for my surround sounds speaker system.

laserfan

10th October 2008, 15:14

I use PowerDVD to playback my copies and they play wonderfully.My CPU (P4 3.2GHz) and Videocard (X1950PRO AGP) must be inadequate to the task. :o

...PowerDVD...an update for version 7. The update made version compatible with BD which means that it now plays both HD DVD and BD which also means that I didn't need to update to version 8.I've stuck with the PDVD7 version (I think 3319a OTTOMH) that still allows opening of files on the hard disk, and disc file structures as well ('Open movie file on hard disk' I think it's called). If the latest update retained these I'd go for it...

Sophocles

10th October 2008, 17:47

My CPU (P4 3.2GHz) and Videocard (X1950PRO AGP) must be inadequate to the task.

The P4 should be fast enough, but your graphics card could be an issue. The best bet is to get a graphics card that includes video acceleration. On older cards that's more likely to be an ATI card than a Nvidia card. what is the make and model of your cards?

laserfan

10th October 2008, 19:58

The P4 should be fast enough, but your graphics card could be an issue. The best bet is to get a graphics card that includes video acceleration. On older cards that's more likely to be an ATI card than a Nvidia card. what is the make and model of your cards?Mine's the Sapphire ATI X1950PRO 512Mb AGP. Doesn't have hw accel for 264 though, at least I don't think it does.

I just DL'ed CoreAVC and amazingly, it is wildly better than the Cyberlink decoder or FFDShow. All the blockiness is gone and stays in-sync always tho I still do get the stutters sometimes.

Looks like a keeper for sure--I'd never have guessed the codec could make such a huge difference!!!?!! :eek:

laserfan

12th October 2008, 04:11

I did finally have a chance to look more critically at my LFODH backup to BD5, using my LG BH200 and 10' 1080p projector, and it is truly awesome. I understand much better now jdobb's enthusiasm for the 264 codec!

I also made a BD5 (x264) of a DL std def DVD and it too looks like the original.

The only glitch I have noticed so far is that at least on my standalone, when changing to a new chapter stop the audio loses sync, sometimes momentarily and sometimes "for good" unless I hit FF and Play, and then sync is regained. It's as if the Chapter Marks might lie in the middle of a GOP or something and audio sync gets lost. Maybe a tsMuxeR issue or just that the chapter marks from the original program don't match-up with I-frames (is that still the right term for x264?) in the new encoding, I dunno.

But this method is a "WOW" for sure! :)

jdobbs

12th October 2008, 05:15

Make sure you manually specify the frame rate before muxing.

GZZ

12th October 2008, 14:07

Make sure you manually specify the frame rate before muxing.

I also have a chapter problem on my PS3, the picture freeze for 2 seconds, before playback continue, some chapters does work, others dont.

Should I select Change FPS and set it manually to the framerate, because tsmuxer normally get the FPS from stream, isnt that the best to do ?

laserfan

12th October 2008, 16:52

Yeah fps=23.976 is specified in my tsMuxeR command. I suspect a glitch in tsMuxeR or as I said a mismatch between specified Chapter frames and the new encoding's I frames.

As I type this I'm not sure if --auto-chapters=5 generates the issue also. :confused:

jdobbs

12th October 2008, 16:57

Do you have keyint set to 24. If it is higher you can find yourself waiting for the next one -- for example, if you used the default 250 value it could be a 10 sec wait.

GZZ

12th October 2008, 17:25

@SET IN_TITLE=FILETITLE
@SET IN_BITRATE=5240
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1
--aud --vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --bframes 3 --direct auto
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --subme 2 --analyse none --me dia --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 1 --output NUL
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud
--vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 1
--analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --me umh --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.264"
TIME /T
PAUSE

I use the script you provided earlier in this post.

the --b-rdo --bime command has change to --subme7 in the newest x264 encoder. But it still have some chapter problems.

laserfan

12th October 2008, 17:25

Do you have keyint set to 24. If it is higher you can find yourself waiting for the next one -- for example, if you used the default 250 value it could be a 10 sec wait.
No--great idea I will try that!!! :)

jdobbs

12th October 2008, 18:07

I use the script you provided earlier in this post.
...But it still have some chapter problems.The chapter problems would probably more likely be related to the muxing rather than the encode. What I meant was to manually force the framerate in TSMUXER when you create the BD directory.

jdobbs

12th October 2008, 18:12

No--great idea I will try that!!! :) Don't forget to also add "--min-keyint 1", the default is 25, I believe, and you have to get smaller than the 24...

GZZ

12th October 2008, 18:31

The chapter problems would probably more likely be related to the muxing rather than the encode. What I meant was to manually force the framerate in TSMUXER when you create the BD directory.

How do you force the framerate, by setting the "Change FPS to" Dropdown box ?

jdobbs

12th October 2008, 20:58

How do you force the framerate, by setting the "Change FPS to" Dropdown box ?Yes. I've been told that for some reason there seems to be an issue with correctly detecting/applying the framerate during the mux.

GZZ

12th October 2008, 22:42

I tried it on a 1080p@25 fps movie without any lock. I have an image created before I forced the fps and after. Still the same chapters which have a long delay (picture freeze and audio play) until 5 sec. later it all plays fine.

G_M_C

13th October 2008, 07:27

I use the script you provided earlier in this post.

the --b-rdo --bime command has change to --subme7 in the newest x264 encoder. But it still have some chapter problems.

I've been making many BD9's up till now, and i havent seen anyting like your problem ...

So ... i'll give some advise too ;)

First try to upgrade to this (patched !) build, or let Megui do an autoupdate (wont matter; You'll get the same patched revision r999): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1191102#post1191102

Then try to modify a few things in your commandline
(i give only the second pass, port / copy settings to the first yourself if needed);

This is the line you use

"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud
--vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 1
--analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --me umh --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.264"

I use these settings;
I Use a keyframe-interval of max 1 second (so keyframe-interval == framerate, rounded off), min-keyint=1.

--level 4.1 --keyint set yourself --min-keyint 1 --ref 4 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 2 --partitions none --ipratio 1.2 --pbratio 1.2 --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 --scenecut 32 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto --thread-input --psy-rd 0.8:0.8 --aq-strength 0.8 --progress --output "output" "input" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --b-adapt 2

PS: Others speak only of keyframe-interval of 24, so try with a DVD-RW to see what works best.

Try looking at the key-int setting. I use it the way i describe above, and i've never had problems.

I'll advise you to set the vbv-buffer options like above, but i've been reading up on this subject, and those settings might not be correct (depend on the player / chipset actually). Fact is that i've never had problems, so i keep using them untill I notice some faults.

The other options given in red; I'll advise you to put in your commandline, especially the --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd part. There are many reports on "--nal-hrd" that say that it is needed for blu-ray compabillity. On the other hand; There are also many reports that say that tsmuxer add those flags, but i'll trust x264 better in this ;)

The other options i give are just options to improve your quality, so that won't hurt ;)

As allways, use an DVD-RW to test !

And lately i've been setting tsMuxeR "into split mode", splitting to 2 GiB. tsMuxeR still makes the whole movie into 1 Br, but makes all M2TS files 2 GiB long, and seamlessly playing one after the other. I've noticed (and so has a friend with a PS3) that the final disk loads a bit faster .. have no clue why though

GZZ

13th October 2008, 14:35

--b-rdo --bime isnt supported in x264 r999 at www.x264.nl its replaced by --subme 7. But you have them both in your script ? Mistake ?

the version you posted of x264 r999 is the one I use.

G_M_C

13th October 2008, 14:39

--b-rdo --bime isnt supported in x264 r999 at www.x264.nl its replaced by --subme 7. But you have them both in your script ? Mistake ?

the version you posted of x264 r999 is the one I use.

Sorry, i just quoted an old post of mine; Forgot to change that. The rest of my post is accurate though !

(PS: I've set it to subme 8, or sometimes even 9 ;) )

GZZ

13th October 2008, 14:50

I have to read up on a lot of the options. Many I dont understand.

like this one: --psy-rd 0.8:0.8 --aq-strength 0.8

Does it improve quality ?

G_M_C

13th October 2008, 14:57

I have to read up on a lot of the options. Many I dont understand.

like this one: --psy-rd 0.8:0.8 --aq-strength 0.8

Does it improve quality ?

My eyes say so, test it and see :)

GZZ

13th October 2008, 15:05

Should all the option from 2pass be in 1 pass or are there anyway you can see if it makes sense to use it in 1 pass ?

G_M_C

13th October 2008, 15:39

I'm not gonna spoon-feed you .... :rolleyes:

Do some of the reasoning /work /searching yourself please

Sophocles

13th October 2008, 22:14

jdobbs

A little off topic. You won't mind if I stir a little excitement regarding BD RB. I would like to get some of my online buddies stirred up a little.:scared:

jdobbs

13th October 2008, 23:23

Not at all. Actually it's pretty close to beta release. I've done several in-a-row without needing any new adjustments.

The down-side: Man, series discs take a long, long time... I just backed up my copy of Lonesome Dove as a test to a BD-9. There are over 4 hours of video there, and it looks beautiful. :)

GZZ

14th October 2008, 00:04

Really looking forward to test your beta version and also buy a licens for it.

Are you using the script I posted above ? :script:

rack04

14th October 2008, 00:07

jdobbs,

Do you have a command line to mux to blu-ray disc structure using tsMuxeR?

jdobbs

14th October 2008, 01:33

Actually the details would be in the .meta file -- but it changes based upon the source.

jdobbs

14th October 2008, 01:34

Really looking forward to test your beta version and also buy a licens for it.

Are you using the script I posted above ? :script:Not exactly. Similar, though.

laserfan

14th October 2008, 04:12

G_M_C

14th October 2008, 08:14

I have only done a couple of these, but they look gorgeous and play perfectly and I have been using --vbv-bufsize and maxrate of 30000.

I don't know why earlier comments cite DVD speed of 2x is a limitation, when AFAICT the speed limit is actually 3x???

Have you a document / site that says so ? Cause that high bitrates dont seem to work in mine, giving stuttering !

EDIT:
PS: Setting --vbv-maxrate to 30000 doesnt automatically mean that your file will eventually get a bitrate that high. Set vbv-buffer to 30000 also, and encode something like episode 7 of Planet Earth (Great Plains) or episode 3 (Fresh water) from their origingal sources(!!) Then see what bitrate you get on the rising flock of birds (somewhere in the middle of "Great Plains") or the flock of white geese taking off (end of the episode of "Fresh Water").

Both these scenes are renownd for their bitrate extremes, and are used often to test a computers capabillities to decode (stretching many of them to the max and bringing them down to their knees).

jdobbs

14th October 2008, 11:05

I have only done a couple of these, but they look gorgeous and play perfectly and I have been using --vbv-bufsize and maxrate of 30000.

I don't know why earlier comments cite DVD speed of 2x is a limitation, when AFAICT the speed limit is actually 3x??? My player stutters and stops at bitrates that high (unless written to a BD-RE) -- and frankly the quality doesn't seem to noticably improve. I'm sticking to the lower maximums.

GZZ

14th October 2008, 13:31

Can confirm that Jdobbs value for Maxrate and bufsize also works very well on Dual-layer DVD9 played on a PS3.

My DVD-burner dont even read dual layer with more the 2-3x on the outer ring. So keeping the max bitrate under 2x DVD speed, then you will be safe and compatible with more players.

laserfan

14th October 2008, 16:11

Setting --vbv-maxrate to 30000 doesnt automatically mean that your file will eventually get a bitrate that high. Set vbv-buffer to 30000 also, and encode something like episode 7 of Planet Earth (Great Plains) or episode 3 (Fresh water) from their origingal sources(!!) Then see what bitrate you get on the rising flock of birds (somewhere in the middle of "Great Plains") or the flock of white geese taking off (end of the episode of "Fresh Water").

Both these scenes are renownd for their bitrate extremes, and are used often to test a computers capabillities to decode (stretching many of them to the max and bringing them down to their knees).Of course, right now I can't seem to find the "3x is OK for BD5/BD9" right now but I recall having seen it on a Blu-ray chart in some wiki somewhere. I will continue to look again for it.

Dunno what to make of G_M_C and jdobbs stuttering players, maybe my BH200 player is superior to yours (!) in that it was designed also for HD DVD where the 3x DVD speed was/is "legal".

Also, I noted that Atak puts 30000 into bufsize and maxrate in RipBot264 and he seems to continually migrate his updates towards "compatibility" with multiple players.

I don't intend to make a lot of backups by this method, but until I make one that hiccups in any way I will stick by 30000/30000 myself.

P.S. I have Planet Earth (HD DVD) so maybe I'll try that torture test someday. I haven't watched that series yet myself, but I recall similar scenes from "Winged Migration" that were hell to convert to Xvid!

laserfan

14th October 2008, 20:52

After more reading, it seems clear that 30000 is the right number (bufsize and maxrate) for a BD-spec encoding, but the question of playback on a red laser DVD remains open i.e. whether a BD spec encoding will play on DVD-5/9 media.

I found one thread that suggests BD player mfrs might have deliberately disabled the ability to play DVD media. Look here (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1046340&postcount=1) (yes it's about BD media but maybe the same thought process applies). Given the proliferation of HD camcorders and the AVCHD spec, which indeed is 2x, makes me wonder if some players will work PARTIALLY but then are specifically crippled to not play a DVD at >2x speed.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, my own player the BH200 lost the ability to play EITHER type (AVCHD or BD5/BD9) with its most recent firmware. I had to revert to an older firmware to get my BD5s to play. So now I wonder if this may not have been deliberate on LG's part... :eek: :confused:

jdobbs

14th October 2008, 21:24

As I recall the BD-9 FAQ said 3x, while AVCHD rules (which I read some time ago) said 2x. Either way -- it is silly to add a huge maximum bitrate when you know it might cause problems. This is especially true when you know there is very little improvement as a result. I'd also say it is an odd setting to have a maximum bitrate that is 6 or more times higher than the average.

Even at 3x 30000 is inherently too high -- because the actual 1x limit is somewhere around 9300Kbs after the disc overhead that has to be read along with the stream (the M2TS file has about 6-7% overhead). That would make the "best case" somewhere around 27000. In addition you have to subtract from the 27000 for the combined bitrate of all the audio tracks. Buffering can absorb some of this -- but not if it is sustained for a while (like a high action scene).

All the reasoning by others in the world isn't going to convince me to set the maximum to something that common sense tells me is too high. Especially for a purpose that doesn't seem to accomplish anything that I can see...

Sophocles

14th October 2008, 23:00

he down-side: Man, series discs take a long, long time... I just backed up my copy of Lonesome Dove as a test to a BD-9. There are over 4 hours of video there, and it looks beautiful.

I'm looking forward to tackling these big beast. I figure my Quad core should give some idea of what is going to be needed down the road when Nehalem takes over the encoding crown.

laserfan

15th October 2008, 02:38

All the reasoning by others in the world isn't going to convince me to set the maximum to something that common sense tells me is too high. Especially for a purpose that doesn't seem to accomplish anything that I can see...
I was not referring to "reasoning by others" jdobbs, I was referring to the actual "experience" of those who have had longer history doing this than you have, namely the MeGUI and RipBot264 developers.

Still, if your player (a Sony?) and G_M_C's (a Panny I think?) both have experienced stutters with 30,000 bufsize and maxrate, then I won't argue with your experience. And thus altho my BH200 appears to play these discs just fine, since my BH200 likely has a finite life then Common Sense tells me to encode to the lowest common denominator.

Although I suppose by the time my BH200 dies there will likely be a new "4096p" standard or "SuperBit BD" format or something that will inspire me to want the new discs anyway, instead of re-encoding the 3x 1080p discs I made way back in two-thousand-ought-eight! :p

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 02:48

Based on the changes I keep seeing across the board on all these settings and the inconsistencies between all the expert postings -- I'd say it's still pretty much a guessing game and I wouldn't put too much faith in any recommended settings I've seen. That's the reason that, while I'll look at other recommendations, I draw my own conclusions as to what is the best choice.

Even experience is no substitute for math. As I explained, even if 3x is the correct assumption, the value 30000 is still too high. You can't rely on buffering of high bursts to save you or eventually you'll get bit.

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 02:55

I'm looking forward to tackling these big beast. I figure my Quad core should give some idea of what is going to be needed down the road when Nehalem takes over the encoding crown. Soon. A few more tests and I'll post a beta.

magic144

15th October 2008, 03:40

that sounds very superb - I look forward to assisting with beta testing this little baby too

I have mostly been mucking around with MeGUI (and DGAVCIndex) and making .mkv's which play just fine and dandy on my HTPC

however, I think I would be very interested in seeing a more universal solution allowing BD authoring and multi-platform playback

the main reason I went down the HTPC playback route initially was that I'd read that NOT cropping many of these wider aspect ratio movies (i.e. with the black bars top and bottom of frame) leads to ineffeciencies in x264's encoding thereof... tho admittedly I haven't seen the practical evidence/maths to back this up yet! - plus the *scene* rules (by *them*) describe no-cropping as a no-no for these reasons... but since they are a shadowy bunch, I don't suppose we'll ever be able to ask them why!

re: vbv buffer sizes and things, I've so far been using the DXVA-HD-HQ param set from MeGUI which is far and away higher than anything discussed here (probably OK for HTPC, but I didn't realize the constraints on standalones before!) - I believe it's 50000 for both!!

anyway, cheers for the good news,

m

ps - btw, might be worth talking with Sharktooth about his take on all the various 'black art' x264 cmdline params, since MeGUI has honed a very extensive set of parameter sets over the last few weeks/months for almost all playback platform scenarios

fwiw, this is the cmdline param set that my slightly-modified MeGUI x264 profile leads to...
(but like I said, this is no doubt much more geared towards HTPC boundaries)

program --pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --level 4.1 --ref 4 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --weightb --direct auto --filter -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --vbv-bufsize 50000 --vbv-maxrate 50000 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-dct-decimate --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input"

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 04:10

re: vbv buffer sizes and things, I've so far been using the DXVA-HD-HQ param set from MeGUI which is far and away higher than anything discussed here (probably OK for HTPC, but I didn't realize the constraints on standalones before!) - I believe it's 50000 for both!! You have to be careful not to confuse the limits. If you are writing to a BD-RE or BD-R you can use a value of up to 40Mbs, with all streams adding up to no more than 48Mbs (not sure where the 50Mbs comes from -- it is definitely above the blu-ray standard, so I would assume it is used for something else??).

But on a DVD-R, it is much lower. It is possible that 3x is the standard for support (that's what the authoritative guide says). If that is so, then the raw read from the drive (after demodulation, error correction and buffering) is 30.24Mbs. Figure in 7% M2TS and formatting overhead and you lower that to 28.21Mbs. Then subtract a single 640Kbs AC3 audio track and you are already down to 21.81Mbs. You then have to adjust for any other audio tracks and/or the subtitles. Leaving yourself a little room puts you at the 17.5Mbs that was in the batch file example I used. (I decided to be more exact this time)

Like I said, buffering might compensate for a short burst going higher -- but you shouldn't depend on it.

The bottom line is that the standalones are simply following the rules, and so should any encode you intend to play on them.

magic144

15th October 2008, 04:29

I'm guessing on an HTPC, the DVD+R(-R) read rate is typically much more than 3x?
I certainly have never seen seen stuttering on HTPC playback using these settings (...yet...)

e.g. for my SH-203B DVD drive, this link shows DVD+R DL read speeds varying from 5.13x to 12.30x
which I guess is anywhere from about 50000+ to 126000+ Mbit/s (or did I get that entirely wrong)
http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/Samsung-SH-S203B-DVD-Burner-Review/Reading-performance.html

However, from everything you've said jdobbs, standalone machines are much more constrained (and in a media-dependent way!)

m

ps, the --bitrate 1000 is just a default in the cmdline above
typically, when MeGUI calculates the bitrate for an 'average' movie reencode to fit on a DVD+R DL (~9GB), I end up with a bitrate parameter of more like 10000-11000 - I think this is a 'target' bitrate, but obviously by no means an upper bound...

pps - yeah, from the Wikipedia (font of all knowledge?!) webpage on Blu-Ray discs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Codecs

"BD-Video movies have a maximum data transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 48 Mbit/s (for both audio and video data), and a maximum video bitrate of 40 Mbit/s"

...therefore, I don't see any reason why any re-encode of a BD-Video source would EVER require a video bitrate of > 40Mb/s (regardless of the supported maximum read rates of the underlying media/hardware combo!) - also HDDVD has a lesser requirement...

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 12:43

If you want to see reliable specs go here (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11392). I've found it to be right on everything so far.

"BD-Video movies have a maximum data transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 48 Mbit/s (for both audio and video data), and a maximum video bitrate of 40 Mbit/s"
Again -- be careful. Those maximum values refer to BD writeable/rewritable discs (BD-RE/BD-R), not DVD-R or DVD+R (BD-5/BD-9). The BD-5 and BD-9 maximums are as I mentioned. Putting a 40Mbs maximum bitrate on a BD-9 is a recipe for certain failure. I would highly recommend you keep it under 20Mbs -- and 17.5Mbs is a good balance.

When you're encoding in the 3500-5000Kbs average bitrate range (typical for BD-5/BD-9) having a 17.5Mbs ceiling gives you a burst (maximum) rate of more than 3x the average... that is plenty.

[Added] By the way -- if you set the level to 4.0, which I've seen in some of the recommended settings, the ITU-T Rec. H.264 standard puts a fixed 20Mbs maximum bitrate limit on it anyway.

laserfan

15th October 2008, 13:55

Based on the changes I keep seeing across the board on all these settings and the inconsistencies between all the expert postings -- I'd say it's still pretty much a guessing game...Well, I think that's true among Users, but the Developers ought to know how x264 works, shouldn't they?

ps - btw, might be worth talking with Sharktooth about his take on all the various 'black art' x264 cmdline params, since MeGUI has honed a very extensive set of parameter sets over the last few weeks/months for almost all playback platform scenarios... --vbv-bufsize 50000 --vbv-maxrate 50000

But on a DVD-R, it is much lower. It is possible that 3x is the standard for support (that's what the authoritative guide says). If that is so, then the raw read from the drive (after demodulation, error correction and buffering) is 30.24Mbs. Figure in 7% M2TS and formatting overhead and you lower that to 28.21Mbs. Then subtract a single 640Kbs AC3 audio track and you are already down to 21.81Mbs. You then have to adjust for any other audio tracks and/or the subtitles. Leaving yourself a little room puts you at the 17.5Mbs that was in the batch file example I used.
I should make it clear, in case anyone's mistaken my comments for any sort of "expert opinion" (I am not an expert! :eek:) that I'm only putting forth my thoughts here to try to get this cleared-up. I don't know jdobbs that your "common sense" approach is correct, that's all. Your MATH is obviously correct, and I have no argument with your thought process, but I don't know that this rationale truly applies against the --vbv-bufsize and --vbv-maxrate options in x264. I don't understand vbv (duh), but it seems apparent that some of the guys in this thread about x264 not respecting maximums (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=141715&highlight=x264) do understand the implications of the settings wrt both the encoding and decoding processes. I thought of attempting a post in there (as G_M_C has visited already too) but am not sure how to ask much less how to interpret an answer. :o:

magic144 you said I think you're using an HTPC--that's cheating (for purposes of this thread anyway). We're trying to establish how to encode for BD standalone players.

jdobbs and G_M_C have said they've tested higher bufsize and maxrate with stuttery results. Given all the confusion about BD standards and standalone players manufactured to a moving target of specs it sure would be nice to know "the truth" about 3x playback, once cited as an advantage HD DVD had over BD as if BD wasn't capable of it.

But I digress--someone needs to address I think the implications of the --vbv options specifically to DVDR media in standalone players! :scared:

magic144

15th October 2008, 14:48

@laserfan - I thought I had made the distinction clear that I was quoting some figures based on using an HTPC (on top of which I said I was using .mkv container encodes!) - I realize full-well that this discussion is all about zeroing in on the specific restrictions associated with standalone BluRay playback hardware in conjunction with DVD5/DVD9 media (authored in a BluRay video container format)! Mostly I was trying to emphasize how much more restrictive the standards are compared with the practical capabilities of today's optical drives in a PC environment :-)

@jdobbs - I assumed that BD-Video meant BD-ROM media. I didn't mean to imply that those rates would/should apply to DVD media.

I seem to have been misunderstood a lot so far...!

Like I said, I have been doing a lot of DVD9 (cropped) 720p encodes so far - most around 11000 avg/target bitrate - that is already twice as much as a lot of 'scene' encodes, so I don't believe a cap of 17500 is going to seriously affect anybody's viewing experience...

m

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 14:49

Well, I think that's true among Users, but the Developers ought to know how x264 works, shouldn't they? Yes. But then x264 can be used for much more than just blu-ray. There are a lot of options in x264 -- and the developers understand the implications of all of them. The questions arise in asking ourselves what is really blu-ray compliant, since that's the goal of blu-ray backup.

I don't understand vbv (duh),... It's really not that complicated. When you're dealing with variable bitrates you have to have somewhere to buffer the variability of it. You always want bytes available when you reach for them so the buffer needs to have something in it -- and when data comes in faster than you are decoding you need them to be kept there until you reach for them. An important clarification is that it isn't even really called VBV in H.264, it's the Coded Picture Buffer (CPB). Same purpose, though. So when you hear someone talk about the CPB you can relate it to the VBV function.

laserfan

15th October 2008, 17:41

It's really not that complicated. When you're dealing with variable bitrates you have to have somewhere to buffer the variability of it. You always want bytes available when you reach for them so the buffer needs to have something in it -- and when data comes in faster than you are decoding you need them to be kept there until you reach for them. An important clarification is that it isn't even really called VBV in H.264, it's the Coded Picture Buffer (CPB). Same purpose, though. So when you hear someone talk about the CPB you can relate it to the VBV function.So you're saying that the buffer size, for example, has to be chosen such that "for any image the player has to decode at one instant, the amount of buffer space the decoder may have to allocate can't get bigger than x"...? So it's building the video stream to that size which the decoder can deal with in any given instant?

Ouch, my head hurts again. Glad you are "on the case"--although a lot of people seem to be building "mini-blu-rays" now it does also seem that no one (else) has been discussing this specific question.

jdobbs

15th October 2008, 17:52

Actually they aren't "mini blu-rays". Apparently the standard includes a BD-9 format (which curiously includes both DVD-9 and DVD-5 disc sizes).

jdobbs

16th October 2008, 09:54

Not sure why this thread got closed... if I did it, it was an accident. Just reopened it.

GZZ

16th October 2008, 10:28

Thats what happen jdobbs, good to see it open again. :)

After I changed my script for x264 TSmuxer sees my stream as 1920:1084p and not 1920:1080p. I can see from my log and my avs script that the output is 1920:1080p and all other programs (dgavcdec, mediainfo etc.) see the stream as 1920:1080p except for TSmuxer, anyone know if this is a TSmuxer issue, only problem is that it mux the subtitle in the same resolution as my video and then they dont work in powerdvd, so I have to change that manually in my meta file. Pretty wierd problem. Anyone tried this ?

Adub

17th October 2008, 03:35

There is the possibility that it is actually a bug in TSMuxer.

mouw

18th October 2008, 19:29

been making BluRay movie backUps now 4about 2mos
learned quite a bit here on Doom9 & AVSforum threads
using RipBot264 with eXcellent results (27+ BD9/BD-R) NO Coasters
PlayBack is Sony BDP350 -> IN7210 PJ -> 9ft screen w/surround sound
i can see small differences in PQ w/BD9 but not much on BD-R
even though BD-R 25g is compressed from 30-40g original m2ts file
looking forward to JDOBBS upComing App/GUI

more on my Routine (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1196419#post1196419)

jdobbs

18th October 2008, 20:44

Well... just fixed something in BD Rebuilder that had been giving me problems for a while. It shouldn't be long before I can post it. Right now I'm concentrating on the "full backup" of BDs on to BD-9 or BD-5 -- so far it looks pretty good.

vwpassion

18th October 2008, 21:44

@jdobbs

Will BD Rebuilder support menu encoding? From what I've seen menus on blurays are usually around 20 - 400 mb give or take... I could imagine by encoding them it wouldn't be a huge problem to keep them on the BD (unless they are very big).

magic144

18th October 2008, 23:10

hi jobbs,
just wondering if your bd-rebuilder solution will be based around tsmuxer or eac3to (or if that will be independent/up-to-the-user somehow)

seems that eac3to is quite mature these days and capably handles things like branching/versions (removing video/audio gaps) ... I must admit I'm not overly familiar with tsmuxer these days

jdobbs

18th October 2008, 23:49

The first beta release will use TSMUXER with some post-mux tweaking by my own code. Soon after I will release a version with my own code for muxing that doesn't require TSMUXER. I decided to go that way to avoid delays.

magic144

19th October 2008, 00:11

sounds good - actually thinking about it, I guess dvd-rebuilder is totally ripper independent, which is why I was asking

thing about Blu is there are more variations than with DVD
so many more codecs! (AVC, VC-1, MPEG-2, not to mention all the audio...)

one more question, does this BD-9 re-authoring allow you to re-use the subtitles "as-is" - the one bugbear I have with my current process/workflow is that I have to tediously convert all the subs via OCR to .srt for use in this .mkv format - freedom from that would be fantastic, although the downside is there wouldn't be any freeware PC playback solutions... if only DirectVobSub supported native BD subs!

jdobbs

19th October 2008, 00:26

It keeps all the subs... I have the ability to remove, but I've disabled it (for my own reasons). Right now I have it reencoding all video to AVC regardless of the original format. It also converts all retained audio to AC-3 -- but later versions will allow you to keep them in their original format as well. Mainly I did that to keep audio size reasonable for fitting on BD-9/5 discs. Reencoding the audio also gives you the option of adjusting the output volume of the newly encoded AC-3 audio.

Like I said previously, the only real limitation right now is the time it takes to reencode. Today I've been playing with using CRF mode on extras to speed things up -- then I use two-pass for the main feature. It cuts time significantly -- especially since you have to reencode all video (to get the max bitrate down to what will play on a BD-9 without stutter/freeze).

magic144

19th October 2008, 01:13

can you at least remove foreign/other subs?

"gives you the option of adjusting the output volume of the newly encoded AC-3 audio"
oh, by that do you mean removing the infamous "dialogue normalization" or something more? and if so, what and why...?
and yeah, I think AC-3 is the only way to go for freeware options at the moment - as far as I know, DTS encoding is $$$
(and yes, I think keeping any kind of HD audio would remove a lot of space for video within the confines of a BD-9)

and will there still be a movie-only option? - it must take a lot of time and effort to handle menus, but personally I just like the main feature :-)

AVC is probably the way to go for sure - that's how I've been reencoding all my own BD's so far too (even if they start out life VC-1 or MPEG-2)

jdobbs

19th October 2008, 01:21

Like I said, I've already added subtitle removal. I just disabled it (when you see it, you'll see that it is a simple check-to-keep list similar to DVD Rebuilder).

The only options I plan to ever offer are either AC3 reencoding or retention of the original (except LPCM -- which in my opinion is a ridiculous waste of space).

The audio reencoding will allow you to boost the volume by whatever amount you want. Of course you have to be careful so you don't cause clipping. I find that about a 10% boost is nice. That way the volume control levels closely match those on my television. I added that because I hate it when I switch back from a disc and the television blows my ears off...

Yes there is a movie-only option. Frankly that ws so easy that I added it more as an afterthought. The only thing you have to do of any consequence is scan the MPLS files so you don't miss any portions of it (e.g. if there is a "director's cut")... but for the vast majority of discs the whole movie is contained in one M2TS file.

magic144

19th October 2008, 01:25

"it is a simple check-to-keep list"
oh well that sounds cool

so have you investigated this dialogue normalization business? - I don't know too much about it myself, except that madshi (eac3to guru) swears by removing it I think :-)
from all I've read so far, it's not anything that interferes with the actual encoded audio, just some kind of post-decode adjustment

don't think I'll play around with volume too much otherwise

jdobbs

19th October 2008, 03:43

Yeah, I'm familiar with it -- I played with it a couple of years ago as a possible enhancement for DVD-RB. It's pretty easy to adjust, and you don't have to reencode to make the adjustment. But, from my experience, it didn't have much of an impact (noticable, but not significant).

In BD-RB you will actually reencode -- and literally boost the volume of the source (as opposed to normalization, which does an analysis and only raises to a point at which the peak stays within bounds). I will probably add normalization at some point as well.

turbojet

19th October 2008, 08:10

Will it be possible to keep AC3 and DTS cores instead of encoding to AC3 every time?

jdobbs

19th October 2008, 11:35

From post #451: "...later versions will allow you to keep them in their original format"

turbojet

19th October 2008, 11:39

Oh by original I thought you meant TrueHD or DTS-HD if exists.

jdobbs

19th October 2008, 17:43

Oh, I see what you mean. Unfortunately those formats might fill a BD-5 or BD-9 by themselves (never mind the video). Right now I'm converting TrueHD into AC3 and DTS-HD into DTS for all streams (even before I reencode to AC3). I have no intention of changing that for BD-5/9 but I'll make it an option for BD-25 in a future version.

Personally I think those formats (along with LPCM) are a waste of space. People can't really tell the difference -- unless they are told what format to which they are listening. But I'll allow the option just so I don't have to argue about it. ;)

turbojet

19th October 2008, 18:06

TrueHD into AC3 and DTS-HD into DTS is what I meant originally and what I'm interested in. 'core' coming from eac3to --core to process it. Original that you mentioned I took as whatever is on the original BD, whether it be HD audio or AC3\DTS.
From reading, it looks like you are requiring encoding to AC3 because of normalizing. This really hurts quality on DTS -> AC3 conversion. AC3 -> AC3 is also noticable on a decent system with decent ears.
Could you initially put in an option to use AC3 or DTS from the BD or extracted from an HD audio stream instead of losing alot of quality?

oRBIT

19th October 2008, 20:39

@jdobbs: Do you have some sort of featurelist for an upcoming beta of BD-Rebuilder? And what timeframe are we talking about before a public beta? Days, weeks, months?

Anyway, thanks for your amazing job! I'm really looking forward to BD-Rebuilder! Recoding BD's are really a pain today so your tool will be very welcome! :)

OrigCasshern

19th October 2008, 21:31

jdobbs

20th October 2008, 00:59

Could you initially put in an option to use AC3 or DTS from the BD or extracted from an HD audio stream instead of losing alot of quality?
Not in the initial beta, but soon afterward. The implementation methodology is incremental so I can catch bugs. It's not my opinion that the quality loss is noticable, though. But, I'm not the only user...

I'm not doing the reencode for volume as much as for space. The normalization is just a nice addition.

jdobbs

20th October 2008, 01:05

OrigCasshern

20th October 2008, 03:37

jdobbs, thanks for your post. Seems I've much to research and figure out. Does it even seem like something possible, or is there a better way I can be doing things?

G_M_C

20th October 2008, 09:08

Please please forgive me for this post, but what I'm reading is perhaps of interest to what I'm trying to accomplish. Please tell me to get lost (or tell me where to post) if need be. Newbie? Almost.

I currently use StaxRip to encode main movie DVD/VOB files to ac3/h264 files. Then I use txRemuxer to create an m2ts file from the two files.

My goal is to:

1. Do the above for multiple VOB files
2. Create an AVCHD DVD5/DVD9 with multiple files (movies) as the STREAM files in the folder...

...hoping I'll end up with 3-5 movies on a single AVCHD DVD5/9 disc that my PS3 will think is a regular AVCHD with multiple files in the STREAM folder.

I've read that the PS3 will only upscale from disc and not from streaming m2ts files or reading as ISO files from the hard drive or DVD.

Any thoughts? Is this a pipe dream?

Thanks for your time. I can see you all have experience and talent in such areas.

I see you have only made 2 posts on this board, so it might be that you dont know / or have missed this.

There are many places on this board covering small parts of the whole DIY BD / BD9 subject. To bad all this info is frangmented and spreaded all over the place. I've tried starting a post/thread where we could start to try to get all info centralized, but it seems there was no interest. So my tip is that you browse around a few times, and see what you can find.

I've seen something that might help you come around in this part of this board;
http://forum.doom9.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39

Specifically in this thread;
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1184425#post1184425

It might be of interest to jdobbs too.

turbojet

20th October 2008, 13:52

What bitrate is being used for AC3 encoding?
1509 kbps DTS and 640\448 kbps AC3 are typical streams with the core I'm talking about. So even with forcing 448 kbps AC3 encoding you are gaining a maximum 1051 kbps. My personal opinion is that 7000 vs 6000 1080p video bitrate with most video you won't notice much of a difference. but everyone with a DTS receiver will be able to tell the difference in the audio.

With AC3 encoding 640 -> 448 isn't gaining much video bitrate and with 640 -> 640 lossy encoding for normalizing only?
I honestly haven't seen a bluray that didn't have 'good enough' normalization.

While I do like to prioritize video over audio, DTS vs AC3 is a huge difference especially with action movies. I realize encoding to 768 DTS would be optimal but that's not free, and I see jdobbs mentions that for the future.

There's already code for coring, wouldn't having the option to use the core be a few lines of code at the most?
Is the different overhead for DTS vs AC3 an issue?

jdobbs

20th October 2008, 17:12

1509 kbps DTS Exactly my point. If you try to do a movie-only backup to a BD-5 (which can be done with very good quality) you'd have already thrown away almost a quarter of the available disc space on audio alone...

I'm not as impressed with DTS as others apparently are.

turbojet

20th October 2008, 18:56

GZZ

20th October 2008, 19:58

First version is just a beta, all those features will be added along the way, just like DVD rebuilder has evole. :)

Sophocles

20th October 2008, 22:10

I'm not as impressed with DTS as others apparently are.

It depends on the quality of the mix. Sometimes on a DVD that has both DD and DTS, DD could be the better of the two because of a superior mix-down. One also needs to have a very good sound system to distinguish between competing formats. I'm content to go with AC3 640 or when necessary 480 kbps because the quality is still very good.

jdobbs

21st October 2008, 01:26

In all cases they would have the choice to encode or not. I just don't see a reason to be forced to encode the audio in the examples I mentioned. I guess all I can hope for is a workaround outside of the program? What part of "it will be included -- but not in the first beta release" don't you understand? :( It's a matter of keeping the complexity down for debugging... if it is that important to you, wait for a later release.

OrigCasshern

21st October 2008, 03:42

G_M_C, thanks for that. I'll have a look.

jdobbs, thanks for all in this post.

G_M_C

21st October 2008, 08:39

G_M_C, thanks for that. I'll have a look.

jdobbs, thanks for all in this post.

np,

I m looking for a tool to parse /edit the MPLS. Or if it not the MPLS, i'm looking for another way of making tsMuxeR's output stop "repeat seamlessly". Cause i'd like the drive/player to simply "stop" after te movie is played ;)

jdobbs

21st October 2008, 09:25

I think BDEdit is about as close as you're going to get to a full-function editor. Have you tried it?

G_M_C

21st October 2008, 10:16

I think BDEdit is about as close as you're going to get to a full-function editor. Have you tried it?

I've looked at it (i've searches more after my previous post), and i'll download + try it tonight.

Don't know exactly where to look for the playabillity that i want (i.e. edit it so that it stops after playing); But it looks like that is the right tool. Thx for the tip :)

jdobbs

21st October 2008, 16:26

There are flags that can be set with it (each corresponding to a set of bits starting at offset 0x30 in the MPLS file -- but nothing tells you what they relate to...

G_M_C

21st October 2008, 21:42

There are flags that can be set with it (each corresponding to a set of bits starting at offset 0x30 in the MPLS file -- but nothing tells you what they relate to...

Yeah, i was expirimenting with a copy of a small project. Screwed it up a few times allready :p

Too bad there is no good faq or quide on how to use it provided with the package :rolleyes:
Seems i have to expiriment a lot to find out how it really works.

GZZ

23rd October 2008, 22:04

Hey Jdobbs

When can we expect to see a Beta release. I would really like to start beta testing it ? :D

jdobbs

23rd October 2008, 22:36

As soon as I think it it ready. I've been spending a lot of time on it... and it's close. But there are a couple of things I have to get smoothed out before posting the beta.

GZZ

24th October 2008, 08:22

Its ok by me. As a Delphi developer I know it can take time. :)

Keep us updated. :)

Sharc

24th October 2008, 18:34

@jdobbs:
Will BD Rebuilder support backups of BluRay Discs with VC-1 video streams?

Sophocles

24th October 2008, 22:45

As soon as I think it it ready. I've been spending a lot of time on it... and it's close.

We can wait! I know that it's important to have a decent working prototype from which to get feed back. It makes no sense for us to bombard you with issues that you are already aware of.

jdobbs

25th October 2008, 11:44

@jdobbs:
Will BD Rebuilder support backups of BluRay Discs with VC-1 video streams?
Yes. It converts them to AVC.

moviefan

25th October 2008, 17:43

If I may contribute to your amazing project, jdobbs, I would like to suggest an option, if not yet planned, to be able to completely specify the encoding settings for every part of a Blu-ray, meaning I can exactly set encoding settings for the menu, for extras and for the main movie, including the capability of making a sample encode to try out the settings without actually starting the entire process (includes Avisynth). I have come across Blu-rays with extremely compressible menus where there was wasted so much bitrate without ANY difference in quality at all - and I'm talking of really no difference (and I'm very picky...). When it comes to compressing a complete Blu-ray to a DVD-DL size, an extremely compressed menu (or even if possible resized to 720p?) could contribute to a noticeably improved quality for the main movie from my point of view. Also I would love to see an option to resize at least extras, since they are viewed not so often and do their job also in 720p/i or 576/480p/i.

I'm aware of the development status of BD Rebuilder and that you are focusing on only main aspects for now, but these suggestions are rather meant for later development.

Thanks for your effort and I'm thrilled to see the first beta!

magic144

25th October 2008, 19:29

(the M2TS file has about 6-7% overhead)

wow, I've only really just noticed this point (and experienced it first hand) - that seems to push me back towards the .mkv camp!

I will still join everyone in awaiting BD-Rebuilder with keen interest

jdobbs

26th October 2008, 21:13

Overhead is a necessity... mkv has it's share too. You just have to account for it.

magic144

26th October 2008, 23:04

Well it must be needed for some aspect of BluRay playback functionality for sure. I'd be curious to know exactly what it gets you :-) ... possibly something to do with error correction/resilience?

I'm just surprised that, from what you had said and in my own test encodes yesterday, .m2ts is 6-7% bigger than the exact same audio/video streams encoded into an .mkv container. That's nearly 300MB of a DVD5, or 530MB of a DVD9 that could otherwise be reinvested in the h.264 video stream's bitrate.

Anyway, I can of course still see that the obvious benefit of the BD-9 (and the up-and-coming BD-Rebuilder) is NOT to have this reliance on an HTPC - and to have playback capability across a much wider range of hardware :-)

jdobbs

27th October 2008, 00:36

We're a couple days out. The problem is that every time you want to test something -- it's hours before you see the result. :p Just got past another obstacle in the multiplexing.

magic144

27th October 2008, 00:47

Great news jdobbs.
Of course, it will never be 'finished'. Once it's out there, the improvements will begin!

Hours? - What, you mean you haven't invested in a Cray super-computer just yet?! :p

I wonder how long the encode would take if you could run it natively (i.e. not via the virtualization restriction of something like a Linux install) on all of a PS3's 8 cores??? :eek:

GZZ

27th October 2008, 14:11

I wonder how long the encode would take if you could run it natively (i.e. not via the virtualization restriction of something like a Linux install) on all of a PS3's 8 cores???

Properly not that well, because the ps3 only got 512 mb memory (256 mb reserved for the ps3 main OS) and the rest is avaliable.

X264 use around 600-1.3 GB of memory on my system, so limiting it to 256 mb will properly slow down the data feat to the cell cpu on the ps3. But it could be funny to see how fast it is compared to a 4 core CPU (Intel/AMD). :)

To Jdobbs:
Looking forward to see the beta release, maybe doing small 10 min samples instead of full movie for testing will result in the same ?

G_M_C

27th October 2008, 15:23

We're a couple days out. The problem is that every time you want to test something -- it's hours before you see the result. :p Just got past another obstacle in the multiplexing.

Did you find a solution to the standard "seamless" repeat of tsMuxeR ?

Cause i really dont understand BDEdit, so i have no clue

And another option to consider for future versions; An option to select (1 of the) subtitles to play "automatically" (without having to switch them "on" with the remote).

Fishman0919

27th October 2008, 17:52

Hours? - What, you mean you haven't invested in a Cray super-computer just yet?! :p

AMD 9950 OC'ed to 3.5ghz takes about 6 hours. :p

Converting Ironman to 720p DVD-R 2nd pass (http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr37/fishman0919/Encoding.png)

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong, I have it OC'ed to 2.8ghz right now (from 2.6ghz)

jdobbs

27th October 2008, 22:19

Looking forward to see the beta release, maybe doing small 10 min samples instead of full movie for testing will result in the same ? Unfortunately not. For example, short entries never would have found the TSMUXER bug I reported in that thread (that causes incorrect navigation). I put code into BD-RB that corrects it. It just takes the patience of a saint... :)

magic144

28th October 2008, 04:10

@Fishman
yeah, h.264 2-pass 720p movie-encodes using x264 via megui have taken 10-12 hours on a stock Dell XPS420 w/ Core 2 Duo E8500 @ 3.16GHz.

This isn't an impatient person's game :-)

GZZ

28th October 2008, 18:03

Unfortunately not. For example, short entries never would have found the TSMUXER bug I reported in that thread (that causes incorrect navigation). I put code into BD-RB that corrects it. It just takes the patience of a saint...

Yea - just got it. Will try and see if it fix my problem. I will do a movie with and without. First without to see what chapters that will hang (picture freeze sound play) in powerdvd 8 and then apply the patch and see if the same chapter still have this issue. I hope it works. :)

@Fishman
yeah, h.264 2-pass 720p movie-encodes using x264 via megui have taken 10-12 hours on a stock Dell XPS420 w/ Core 2 Duo E8500 @ 3.16GHz.

Yea - I get around 20-25 fps in 1 pass (depends how large the black borders are) and around 7-11 fps in 2-pass on a 1920x1080 progressiv movie (no filter applied). I got a Intel Core2Quad 2.66 Ghz, 12 mb cache (not overclocked - yet)and 6 GB ram. So a normal 2 hour movie is around 2½-3 hour for 1 pass and around 6 hour for 2-pass...

jdobbs

28th October 2008, 21:57

Yea - I get around 20-25 fps in 1 pass (depends how large the black borders are) and around 7-11 fps in 2-pass on a 1920x1080 progressiv movie (no filter applied). I got a Intel Core2Quad 2.66 Ghz, 12 mb cache (not overclocked - yet)and 6 GB ram. So a normal 2 hour movie is around 2½-3 hour for 1 pass and around 6 hour for 2-pass... That's about the same speeds I see with my Phenom Quad.

JJB

29th October 2008, 01:22

I am really enthused about the possibilities here and I am now considering purchasing a stand alone BD player and PC player\burner. Brands not withstanding the only requirement is a unit with digital audio out (coax) as optical has never worked with my older Panasonic SA-HE70 5.1 receiver, an upgrade in the future is possible but I don't think it is needed now as 5.1 works great with me with an Oppo unit and 55" Sony LCD. Any suggestions on brands of BD players?

Will there be a requirement concerning the stand alone ability to play a specific format (VC-1, MPEG2, H.264, et al) from BD to DVD or will any brand play back the converted disc in any BD player.

Thanks

mech61

29th October 2008, 05:41

Ive ordered my player a Panasonic DMP-BD35 , my burner is ready to install LG GGW-H20N/L , what size discs are we going to need.

magic144

29th October 2008, 08:25

@mech61 - good question

I've seen a lot of 720p conversions requiring no more than DVD5 discs, on the other hand this may not apply to 1080p conversions - in fact I've seen some 1080p Scene release .mkv's that span more than the capacity of a DVD9 (dual layer)...

On the other hand, nothing I've yet read talks definitively about the relationship between quality and disc size (for both 720p and 1080p end-product scenarios). Maybe others can contribute to answering this question...

m

mech61

29th October 2008, 08:42

Are we talking blu-ray dvdr? cause ive only seen 25/50 gb discs which arent cheap.

Wombler

29th October 2008, 09:56

They're talking about re-encoding blu-ray to fit onto either single or dual layer DVD recordable.

If you read the rest of the thread all will become clear.

Wombler

jdobbs

29th October 2008, 11:46

Ive ordered my player a Panasonic DMP-BD35 , my burner is ready to install LG GGW-H20N/L , what size discs are we going to need. My experience so far is that for movie-only and disc without a huge amount of extras you can use a single layer DVD+-R. For those with extended content or a very long movie you may need dual layer to keep pristine quality.

I'm also looking at an option to split a disc into two BD-5s, one with extras and the other containing the feature. It probably won't be in the beta, but possibly later.

I'm amazed at how much SD content is on these discs... that part really compresses easily with AVC. Originally I was using total content (in hours) as a quide for whether to go BD-5 or BD-9 -- but with all this 720x480 content it just isn't a reliable determiner.

I have seen no need to bring the resolution down to 1280x720 on any of them as yet.

Development status: Just ran into a bug that is taking me down a lot of rabbit holes and I making me rethink one of my methods... not a big deal, but time-consuming. When I get past this one I may be able to post. The "paying job" has been eating into my development seriously...

G_M_C

29th October 2008, 12:35

[...]
The "paying job" has been eating into my development seriously...

Yep, but the paying job is more important, cause you have to eat ;)

Good to see that you're making good progress. Don't hasten things along, makeing it a "good one" is more important. We'll have patience untill then :)

nwg

29th October 2008, 12:51

I am amazed what I can fit on a single layer DVD when reencoding at 720p. I managed to get 32GB (original video and AC3 5.1) down to 4.36GB. It is hard to actually tell the difference with the original BD disc. The big plus for me is the disc can then play in my BD player as a AVCHD. The down side is the average disc takes 35 hours with my pc setup (1st pass 5-6fps, 2nd pass 1.5-2fps)

I would like to keep 1080p res and do a double layer disc but my pc spec does it at 0.5fps speed.

I have no intention in doing a BDR until they are a lot cheaper (plus the burner) and can do just a 1:1 copy. In the UK a single layer BDR is up to £10 and a double layer is up to £25. A BD burner (LG) is £160. I opted for the LG BD ROM drive at £60.

laserfan

29th October 2008, 16:17

I am amazed what I can fit on a single layer DVD when reencoding at 720p.I used the .bat file earlier in this thread to convert a longish actioner (live free or die hard) to 1080p DVD-5, and on my 1080p 10-foot screen I found absolutely no artifacts of any kind! I was amazed--no pixelation or blocking or posterization or jerkiness anywhere. Stunningly perfect. One almost has to ask: why do we need the blue-laser technology at all when such incredible PQ is available with the 264 codec.

nashcity

29th October 2008, 16:37

It's great to hear your plans for BD Rebuilder Jdobbs. Looking forward to checking it out.

DVD Rebuilder helped me create a library a high quality dvds. But I have since moved to a "digital" library using the PS3 as an interface and a network drive to hold all my video files. Since tsmuxer has an option for M2TS output, would I be correct in assuming that the output from BD Rebuilder could be used to create a "digital" copy for a PS3 or HTPC setup? Maybe it would be as simple as using the M2TS file in the STREAM folder of the BD structure?

rack04

29th October 2008, 17:16

jdobbs,

What is your experience with 1920x1080 on a DVD-5? Are all your encodes resized to 1280x720?

Adub

29th October 2008, 18:23

I have seen no need to bring the resolution down to 1280x720 on any of them as yet.

It helps to read.

rack04

29th October 2008, 18:49

It helps to read.

:thanks: I missed that.

moviefan

29th October 2008, 22:40

I used the .bat file earlier in this thread to convert a longish actioner (live free or die hard) to 1080p DVD-5, and on my 1080p 10-foot screen I found absolutely no artifacts of any kind! I was amazed--no pixelation or blocking or posterization or jerkiness anywhere.

What settings do you use for x264? I really wonder about your experience concerning quality for 1080p content on DVD5 since I have considered even a ~2h movie on DVD9 with 2x AC3 640kbit/s audio movie only very critical... I would appreciate a lot if you could post your command line.

Regards

rack04

29th October 2008, 22:57

What settings do you use for x264? I really wonder about your experience concerning quality for 1080p content on DVD5 since I have considered even a ~2h movie on DVD9 with 2x AC3 640kbit/s audio movie only very critical... I would appreciate a lot if you could post your command line.

Regards

Here is what I use:
@SET X264_PATH=
@SET WORKING_DIRECTORY=
@SET FILENAME=
@SET AVS_INPUT=
@SET DESIRED_BITRATE=
"%x264_PATH%" --pass 1 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --weightb --direct auto --filter -1:-1 --subme 2 --partitions none --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-bufsize 40000 --vbv-maxrate 40000 --qcomp 0.5 --me dia --threads auto --thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output NUL "%AVS_INPUT%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd
"%x264_PATH%" --pass 2 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --weightb --direct auto --filter -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-bufsize 40000 --vbv-maxrate 40000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%FILENAME%-output.h264" "%AVS_INPUT%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd
PAUSE

mech61

30th October 2008, 00:19

Ok so I only really needed to keep my PIONEER BDC-S02BK reader and didnt need to buy a blu-ray burner?

laserfan

30th October 2008, 00:32

I really wonder about your experience...I used the very first .bat jdobbs posted earlier in this thread, with x264 build r955 IIRC. Worked perfectly, looks fantastic. So good I'm hard-pressed not to use it again, even without the keyint and minkeyint changes, or with a newer x264 build.

GZZ

30th October 2008, 17:49

what does the --mvrange 511, specially the 511 comes from ? in the help for x264 it says:

--mvrange <integer> Maximum motion vector length [-1 (auto)]

But why 511 and not 1000 or -1 for auto ?

oRBIT

30th October 2008, 21:47

What really bothers me with some blu-ray titles is that the movies can't be resumed if you once have stopped playback. I've imagined this has something to do with Java-menus could it be correct? My blu-rays that starts quickly also seems to be able to resume but discs with very advanced menues doesn't seem to be able to resume.
So my questions is, how will this work with BD-Rebuilder? I guess the resume-problem still might be there as you copy the entire disc but how about movie-only mode?

jdobbs

30th October 2008, 22:54

If you make a full backup, it will work exactly like the original. If you make a movie-only, it will resume.

magic144

31st October 2008, 05:19

@oRBIT - I too have seen the no-resume feature on my BD discs. From what I've read and seen, this inability to resume discs' playback positions is attributable to some Java functionality on the discs in question... Obviously, if you strip these discs down to movie-only reencodes without menus or attendant control features, you will once more have a basic movie file which will be resumable in your player.

oRBIT

4th November 2008, 10:00

I've learned that BD-Rebuilder in it's current (beta) stage will recode audio to AC3.. Will I be able to recode the audio to 2-channel AC3 aswell within the application?

Rectal Prolapse

4th November 2008, 19:02

nwg

7th November 2008, 11:09

I just done my first 1080p encode (I, Robot) with x264 to a single layer dvd instead of the usual 720p. Despite taking around 40 hours instead of the usual 30, the result is still impressive.

It would be good if this BD Rebuilder can work with the original Blu Ray subtitles without having to use SRT ones.

jdobbs

8th November 2008, 04:54

jdobbs

8th November 2008, 04:55

I've learned that BD-Rebuilder in it's current (beta) stage will recode audio to AC3.. Will I be able to recode the audio to 2-channel AC3 aswell within the application?I hadn't thought of that -- but it is very easy to add.

jdobbs

8th November 2008, 04:57

Will BD-Rebuilder have an option to not re-encode the video and audio?

I assume there will be an option to also re-encode for BD-25, or re-encode extras-only while leaving the movie (video and audio format) intact.

I apologize if this has been answered already - it's hard to search for any mention of the above. Not in the first beta release, but later certainly. I assume this would be simply to remove some audio, but retain the remaining audio/video.

It already has an option to reencode to BD-25.

rendez2k

9th November 2008, 00:58

jdobbs, maybe if you get a chance you could list the features it will have at release and the ones you plan to add in the future?

Fishman0919

11th November 2008, 15:29

Ok. Here is the .BAT, it is placed in the same directory as the .AVS file and you have to set the file name and bitrate before running (first two lines). The bitrate is calculated based upon the size (in frames) of the input. Note that for readability I've broken the X264 commands into multiple lines here but in the .BAT file the entire command is on one line.

@SET IN_TITLE=FILETITLE
@SET IN_BITRATE=5240
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1
--aud --vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --bframes 3 --direct auto
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --subme 2 --analyse none --me dia --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 1 --output NUL
TIME /T
"E:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud
--vbv-bufsize 14745 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3
--keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --subme 6 --trellis 1
--analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --me umh --threads auto --thread-input
--progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "stats2.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.264"
TIME /T
PAUSE
Comments from any X264 experts out there who could improve the command lines are certainly welcome.

[Edit - 09/03/08] Updated to limit key interval to 24 -- due to 1 sec limit on BD.

@SET IN_TITLE=Full - 720p
@SET IN_BITRATE=3600
TIME /T
"d:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud --vbv-bufsize 16500 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --direct auto --b-adapt 2 --aq-mode 2 --aq-strength 1.0 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --subme 2 --trellis 1 --analyse none --me dia --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "x264HQ2pass.log" --pass 1 --output NUL
TIME /T
"d:\X264\x264.exe" "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --level 4.1 --sar 1:1 --aud --vbv-bufsize 16500 --vbv-maxrate 17500 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --aq-mode 2 --aq-strength 1.0 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --weightb --direct auto --subme 7 --trellis 1 --analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --me umh --merange 20 --mvrange 511 --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --stats "x264HQ2pass.log" --pass 2 --output "%IN_TITLE%.h264"
TIME /T
PAUSE

Adds --b-adapt 2 (to 1st pass), --b-pyramid, --aq-mode 2, --aq-strength 1.0

For better B frame handling and Adaptive Quantization Mode for better distribute of available bits between all macroblocks in the video.

Nice info page on x264 settings LINK (http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/X264_Settings)

GZZ

11th November 2008, 17:41

I will try it out. But can you please explain what the
--mvrange 511 option is good for ?

Fishman0919

11th November 2008, 18:40

I will try it out. But can you please explain what the
--mvrange 511 option is good for ?

Nice info page on x264 settings LINK (http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/X264_Settings)

All about the settings.

...or

mvrange

Default: 511.75

Set the maximum range of any one motion vector. The default value is the maximum specified by the h264 standard. It is not level or profile dependant, so don't touch it.

511.75 is not accessed as a value, so the max setting would be 511

GZZ

11th November 2008, 20:46

I dont see a reason to change it.

The default value is the maximum specified by the h264 standard. It is not level or profile dependant, so don't touch it.

When its default, I think its default on. When the text says Default: Not Set. Then its not turned on, except if you use the option. Alot of the commands are default set, because they are needed and the default value is the best.

Fishman0919

11th November 2008, 21:06

I dont see a reason to change it.

When its default, I think its default on. When the text says Default: Not Set. Then its not turned on, except if you use the option. Alot of the commands are default set, because they are needed and the default value is the best.

Better sure that .75 will not make a noticeable difference in quality. I did play with this setting to see what effect on quality and speed it has.

Odd the x264 will not access the default value in the command line.

GZZ

11th November 2008, 22:34

well - you could try 0 instead, because if it dont use the default value, what value should it then use ?. So setting it to zero (0) will let you know. :D

DVD Maniac

12th November 2008, 11:19

Just an update to everyone: I've been assigned to a special project in my "real job" that has pulled me away for awhile. I'll get back to the beta as soon as I can. Sorry for the delay, but I really don't have an option.

jdobbs,
Looks very exciting stuff, I have been focused on other projects myself recently hence lack of posts! Any chance of a beta tester status please!

Sophocles

14th November 2008, 23:15

jdobbs left a massage a few posts back regarding Beta progress.

Just an update to everyone: I've been assigned to a special project in my "real job" that has pulled me away for awhile. I'll get back to the beta as soon as I can. Sorry for the delay, but I really don't have an option.

I hear you loud and clear when it comes to the "real job."

DVD Maniac

15th November 2008, 19:50

Just wondered whether he was releasing betas to try before "official" release ala original Rebuilder. :):)

Sophocles

16th November 2008, 01:52

Just wondered whether he was releasing betas to try before "official" release ala original Rebuilder.

RB done right can never leave beta status since it is an ongoing effort to keep pace with a format's architecture.

writersblock29

7th December 2008, 13:53

@Jdobbs

It sounds like we're getting roughly the same encoding speeds. I'm using a Phenom 9950, and currently chugging Black Hawk Down at 7.66fps, 2nd pass. I've noticed that it depends on what the source used for compression (MPEG2, VC-1, or AVC) as to how fast it goes... but even then, it's dickering over maybe an extra frame per second.

Still, it's not as bad as the really early days of DVD conversions. Remember ReMPEG2? :rolleyes:

I'm following this thread with a lot of interest. It's good to see you plugging away at Blu ray now!

laserfan

7th December 2008, 16:51

I've noticed that it depends on what the source used for compression (MPEG2, VC-1, or AVC) as to how fast it goes... but even then, it's dickering over maybe an extra frame per second.These different sources are being Decoded by different Decoders in your PC, and so their different decoding speeds may account for this.

Sn8kbordin

8th December 2008, 16:53

I am using MEgui BluRay disc profile and I am getting 2-2.5fps on Opteron 185 OCed a bit w/ 2GB RAM. :( My laptop's XPS1530 Core2Due (I think it is fastest they offer) w/ 4GB RAM and vista I can do 2.5FPS on 2nd pass
Gotta jump on the quad core wagon soon.

jdobbs

8th December 2008, 17:36

These 1920x1080p sources are just huge and I don't think even a decent dual core has enough "oomph" for it. Luckily, though, as we saw in the DVD world -- the processors improve fast. I can still remember back in 2004 when it wasn't unusual for some people to see 16 hours for a DVD to be reencoded.

Sn8kbordin

8th December 2008, 17:44

Guess where my X-mas bonus is being spent at?
New motherboard, Quad CPU (once I research them to see which one I want), RAM and 2 10K RPM WD HDDs in RAID0.

jdobbs

8th December 2008, 18:12

From what I've heard the Intel Quads seem to be a better choice than the AMDs... my Phenom is ok -- but I'm hearing the Q6600 overclocked is significantly faster.

Fishman0919

8th December 2008, 18:49

I have both an Intel Q6600 and an AMD 9950 Black Editon. Both are great. It really depends on what you are doing and what software you are running.

For me the AMD 9950 Black Edition OC's better but then it's multiplexer is unlocked.... so as long as you can keep it cool... you can run it very high.... I have my 9950 at 3.8 stable with water cooling.

jdobbs

8th December 2008, 19:57

Wow. My Phenom is a 9500, so it's significantly lower in the AMD chain than the black editions. It also was manufactured prior to the fix they put in the 9550s. I haven't tried to overclock it (my motherboard sucks for overclocking) -- but I've heard that the 9500 isn't greate for overclocking like the Q6600s (which are similar to the 9500 in price).

3.8GHz on a quad? Wow. That has to kick butt, even with HD AVC encoding...

Fishman0919

8th December 2008, 20:15

Fishman0919

8th December 2008, 20:39

A compare of different encoders with Mainconcept Reference 1.5.1 LINK (http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-cpu-charts-q3-2008/Mainconcept-Reference-1-5-1,832.html)

Wombler

9th December 2008, 09:53

From what I've heard the Intel Quads seem to be a better choice than the AMDs... my Phenom is ok -- but I'm hearing the Q6600 overclocked is significantly faster.

Have you heard anything in relation to the new i7's yet?

Wombler

Fishman0919

9th December 2008, 13:19

Have you heard anything in relation to the new i7's yet?

Wombler

A friend at work just built one... Intel Core i7 940... very close to his old Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 but takes advantage of DDR3 mem.

He said it has it pluses and minuses.

The new AMD AM3 cpu do the same thing... have better handling for DDR3 mem. LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM3)

laserfan

9th December 2008, 16:09

A friend at work just built one... Intel Core i7 940... very close to his old Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650...
I know that wasn't a joke, but Ha, ha! Some of us are still running Pentium P4s! :o

What is giving him pause/heartburn about his upgrade? When *I* finally commit to upgrading from my P4 3.2GHz I was thinking i7 and DDR3, the whole-nine-yards, myself.

Fishman0919

9th December 2008, 16:30

I know that wasn't a joke, but Ha, ha! Some of us are still running Pentium P4s! :o

What is giving him pause/heartburn about his upgrade? When *I* finally commit to upgrading from my P4 3.2GHz I was thinking i7 and DDR3, the whole-nine-yards, myself.

He was hoping for a little more I think... being it's DDR3.

The Intel Core i7 940 is a tad slow then the Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 (2.93GHz vs 3.0GHz) but he was hoping with it being DDR3 it would be lot faster. He said it does seem faster but not what he was hoping for.

Sn8kbordin

9th December 2008, 16:36

He was hoping for a little more I think... being it's DDR3.

The Intel Core i7 940 is a tad slow then the Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 (2.93GHz vs 3.0GHz) but he was hoping with it being DDR3 it would be lot faster. He said it does seem faster but not what he was hoping for.

Any benchmark numbers to show?

laserfan

9th December 2008, 16:59

He said it does seem faster but not what he was hoping for.Thanks; yeah I guess when we spend precious $$$ on upgrades we tend to look for 2x-or-more improvements. At least I do (or will, expect maybe even 8x speedboost over my P4).

Capsbackup

9th December 2008, 17:11

With all this discussion of processors and encoding speeds, I was just wondering if there is any current news on how BD Rebuilder is coming along? There was silence for quite some time, and curiousity, with some patience, is getting the better of me. Maybe "Santa jdobbs" is coming to town?

Fishman0919

9th December 2008, 17:13

Thanks; yeah I guess when we spend precious $$$ on upgrades we tend to look for 2x-or-more improvements. At least I do (or will, expect maybe even 8x speedboost over my P4).

You may want to take a look at the new AMD AM3. First reviews and reads look very good.

Wombler

9th December 2008, 22:11

A friend at work just built one... Intel Core i7 940... very close to his old Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 but takes advantage of DDR3 mem.

Damn... I was hoping it would be more clear cut than that.

I'm long overdue an upgrade and was thinking about building a new system with the focus being very much on video processing speed.

I had it in mind to go either for the state of the art in relation to the current generation, or bottom end of the new generation (i7 920) which could be more easily upgraded later.

From what you're saying I'll either have to set the bar higher or content myself with the current technology.

I'm in no immediate hurry though so I think I'll have to have a look at the AM3 and see what the story is with it before I make a decision.

BTW I found this (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/Intel-Core-i7-Nehalem,review-31404-32.html) for those that are interested in benchmarks.

Wombler

Sophocles

10th December 2008, 03:43

From what I've heard the Intel Quads seem to be a better choice than the AMDs... my Phenom is ok -- but I'm hearing the Q6600 overclocked is significantly faster.

I have a water cooled Intel Q9650 (EO stepping) overclocked to 4 GHz that is bringing two pass encodes down to about 4.5 hours. The new i7 chips will provide some progress, but it's probably going to take an 8 core processor with compatible multithreaded software before we are on par with today's DVD backup times. There is also the possibility that GPGPU parallel processing will come along to offset the CPU's weak points and really pick things up. For folding a single decent Video card with CUDA drivers is about 20 times faster than the fastest Quad CPU.

Wombler

10th December 2008, 09:49

There is also the possibility that GPGPU parallel processing will come along to offset the CPU's weak points and really pick things up. For folding a single decent Video card with CUDA drivers is about 20 times faster than the fastest Quad CPU.

Yeah I know that and it would make my choices a lot simpler as I could just plough a larger proportion of my money into a new video card but I think I recall Jdobbs stating somewhere that he has no plans to develop this at present. :(

Wombler

Sharc

10th December 2008, 18:29

Seems the original scope of this thread has been lost .....

writersblock29

13th December 2008, 04:05

@Sharc

Well... yes and no. Sure, this isn't the right place for discussing hardware specs--but on the other hand, it offers insight to how speedy a given project can be expected to complete. I know that if Jdobbs offered a release of BDRebuilder right here and now, the very first thing he'd hear is, "Good golly, this takes forever." From that point on, the only thing people would focus on is the speed at which they could get from point A to point B. It might help to ease their minds (and pocketbooks) to find out that those of us with high-end equipment are just as frustrated as they are, and upgrading really won't ease that much for them. At least, not at this point.

I do understand your point, however. On the other hand, this thread really hasn't remained focused on one aspect for very long: DVD-to-Blu ray, DVD upconversion-to-Blu ray, and now Blu-ray to AVCHD DVD as well as DVDs with true Blu ray content on them. I see it as an examination of possibilities, with an eye on what's available and what people will want to use. It's bound to wander... but there's lots to think about in this area of backup creation, and a lot of good input on this thread.

DVD Maniac

15th December 2008, 20:14

No harm in filling the wait for the final release :) Perhaps jdobbs can provide an update on progress?

Im running dual core AMD and only just upgraded so would prefer to wait and see how that performs first. I for one am less stressed about encode times. Remember the good old days of REMPEG and 12 hour encodes you left running overnight :rolleyes:

- its really no big deal providing the end result is a high quality one which works on your set-top players.

Anyway, i'm waiting patiently, but I am sure we would like a little Christmas toy to play with

Jdobbs

WE want pressies
Pressies!
Pressies!
Pressies!
Pressies!
Pressies!
Pressies!
Pressies!
.........and more pressies!

Furiousflea

17th December 2008, 17:10

The AMD 9950 Black Edition or Reg ver runs at 2.6 norm.... The Black Edition lets you set the multiplexer up to 6.4.

I had it running at 4.0 but was have issues runing x264 and CCE.... backed it down to 3.8 and works fine.

Its called a multiplier not a multiplexer...

Sorry that was annoying me :)

Also, please don't spread false information a 9950 can't hope to compete with a Q6600 for overclocking potential, or even at eqally clocked speeds the Q6600 is a good 20% faster for video encoding - at least!

Most Q6600s do 3.4-3.6Ghz on air, with the majority hitting 3.6Ghz. Some even higher.

On water they nearly ALL do 3.8-4.2Ghz.

A Q6600 at 3.8Ghz would be about as fast as your 9950 clocked at 4.5-4.6Ghz.

No disrespect, and I'm sorry to troll, but if your not speaking from first hand experience (I'm not either but I have done my research) please don't make incorrect assertions.

Furiousflea

17th December 2008, 17:11

Furiousflea

17th December 2008, 17:14

You may want to take a look at the new AMD AM3. First reviews and reads look very good.

About as good as a Q6600 from my reading, clock for clock. Again not as good at overclocking though.

jdobbs

17th December 2008, 17:38

It's going to take more like 3-4 days on a dual core AMD, even 3Ghz+ clocked ones.It gets slow, but nowhere near that kind of time. On my Dual Core AMD clocked at 2.4GHz it takes about 20 hours to do a typical complete Blu-ray backup, and less for a movie-only.

jdobbs

17th December 2008, 17:44

No disrespect, and I'm sorry to troll, but if your not speaking from first hand experience (I'm not either but I have done my research) please don't make incorrect assertions.Actually in an earlier post (#542) he said he has both... so I would take that to mean he is speaking from first hand experience.

Capsbackup

18th December 2008, 16:55

@jdobbs
I know its been asked several times before, so excuse my impatience, but is there any more recent estimates on a release date for your BD-Rebuilder program? I can't be the only one anxiously awaiting your release!!

prettyboy85712

18th December 2008, 18:31

MadMonkey57

20th December 2008, 13:27

@jdobbs
I think I've read somewhere in this thread that you planned on developping you're own muxing tool within bd-rebuilder. Is that correct?

jdobbs

20th December 2008, 23:20

Yes -- but it isn't complete yet. Right now BD Rebuilder is using TSMUXER.

moviefan

21st December 2008, 22:07

What is this tool called, created by jdobbs, that fixed some bug in tsMuxer? In what cases is this needed and where can I get it?

MadMonkey57

21st December 2008, 23:44

jdobbs created a tool called fixclpi (available in the forum :search:). It fixes an internal table in movie clips generated by tsmuxer. Some players (like PS3) seem to be doing fine without it. Some others (I don't remember what models of Sony's) require it to support proper fast forward / rewind and chapter seeking. Some others (Panasonic's BD30/35) seem to live better without fixclpi (firmware maybe)...

You could then use it in case you encounter problems with your creations (F-FORW/REW, chap. seeking) or if you seek better "BD spec" compliancy, please let us know how it goes if you give it a try.:thanks:

Fishman0919

22nd December 2008, 03:03

About as good as a Q6600 from my reading, clock for clock. Again not as good at overclocking though.

My AMD am2 9950 Black Edition is faster then my q6600... much faster... and OC's much better... lookie at my "AMD 9950 OC'ed" below. The AM3's are faster then that.

Vanderlow

22nd December 2008, 23:03

I wonder how a blu-ray movie will look backed up via .264 on a DVDr 9? It's got to look better then a regular DVD, right? and this is something BD Rebuilder will do (when it's out)?

Chefkoch_ico

22nd December 2008, 23:10

At least movie only you can do some pretty neat things.

I did this myself with HD-DVD some time ago, however, to not generate artefacts I reduced the resolution to 1440x1080p24 anamorphic. Dont know, if thats in BluRay spec. But with this I could get a 140 minute movie with great quality on a DVD9.

For me is a resize to BD-R25 important, since its more compatible to Standalone BluRay Players and in 99% the quality will be really great, even with menus and extras. And they are not that expensive anymore.

Bye

jdobbs

22nd December 2008, 23:12

I wonder how a blu-ray movie will look backed up via .264 on a DVDr 9? It's got to look better then a regular DVD, right? and this is something BD Rebuilder will do (when it's out)? If it's movie-only you can't tell the difference between the reencoded movie (1920x1080p) on BD-9 and the original... I've done a lot of them in testing and haven't seen one that has degraded yet. For most you can't tell the difference on a full backup (including extras) either. I have a BFD-25 option in BD Rebuilder and haven't seen a disc yet that really required it. In fact, for typical movies (two hours or so) you can do a movie-only backup to BD-5 with no detectable blocking. I'm telling you, I'm excited about this -- H.264 (via X264) is really efficient.

You may see a beta for Christmas... but don't expect it to be bug-free.

For me is a resize to BD-R25 important, since its more compatible to Standalone BluRay Players BD-9 is Blu-ray compliant... it isn't some made-up standard like mini-DVD.

Vanderlow

22nd December 2008, 23:46

just so I'm sure we are talking apples to apples when you say BD-9 you mean BD movie shrunk on a 8.5 GB DVDr-9, right? and BD-5 would be a BD backed up .264 on 4.5GB DVDr-5? if that's so, I'm excited too ...

rack04

22nd December 2008, 23:49

writersblock29

23rd December 2008, 00:04

@Jdobbs

[Quoted] "In fact, for typical movies (two hours or so) you can do a movie-only backup to BD-5 with no detectable blocking."

Hmm... Last night I did a movie-only of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull to DVD5, and there were blocks on pretty much every flat area of the image. The detail of moving objects was good, but the pixelation on inactive areas (the sky, a wall, the ground, for examples) was pure distraction. Doing this movie on DVD9 resulted in a flawless copy. Since I'm using Ripbot264 and not reducing the resolution (both attempts were 1080p), and--while I am keeping the 5.1 (in this case, reducing the HD True track to 448kbs AC3), I'm wondering: Are there any special settings you're using for AVC that Ripbot isn't? Given the unreliablity of dual-layer media these days (it's a headache keeping track of Singapore Verbatims--those India disks are really only good for art projects or trash can liners), I'd love to be able to use single-layer blanks.

jdobbs

23rd December 2008, 00:55

Are you watching it in motion or looking at a "paused" frame? It's probably a stretch to say "BD-5 with no detectable blocking" (I should have been more careful with my choice of words). But it isn't noticable during normal viewing. For the most part the settings are the same as in the batch I posted earlier in this thread.

~bT~

23rd December 2008, 01:47

bd5 with 1080p is asking for blocking.
bd9 should solve it.

writersblock29

23rd December 2008, 02:27

@Jdobbs

This was with regular watching. I had to laugh, though; you reminded me of all the "this encoder is better than that encoder" arguments where it would appear as if some people were so busy nit-picking individual frames, they never had the chance to *cough* actually watch a movie. But back to the Indy Jones film, I decided to test this one because it's only a hair longer than two hours; I wanted to test the boundaries a little bit more. I had done the old 1980 Carpenter movie, The Thing, to DVD5... and it looked very good. What pixelation I did notice I caulked up to just how grainy the original source material is--not to mention that there's a lot of fire (I remember MPEG2 encoders didn't seem to agree with flame, fog, or water... I assumed AVC might be privy to some of the same if even to a lesser degree).

Both my television (50" 1080p hooked up via HDMI) and my computer monitor (1440 X 900 19" LCD via DVI) displayed the same behavior. Both of these projects I also committed to DVD9, and those are the ones I'm keeping; those looked absolutely indistinguishable from the original sources.

Now I'm eyeballing Gangs of New York. That sucker's close to three hours long. If I don't die of old age before the encoding's done, it'll be interesting to see how that looks. But I didn't want to commit to it before I knew if there's some other ST-friendly settings I could be using to maximize the efficientcy of X264. I trust your eyes even if I understand how subjective the issue of quality is, so I'd figured I'd ask about your DVD5 encoding settings.

jdobbs

23rd December 2008, 03:28

Of course there's always the option of going 1280x720p for DVD-5 too. I haven't added that to BD Rebuilder yet, but I'm eventually going to.

G_M_C

23rd December 2008, 09:44

[...]

Now I'm eyeballing Gangs of New York. That sucker's close to three hours long. If I don't die of old age before the encoding's done, it'll be interesting to see how that looks.

[...]

That's never gonna look good, whatever encoder or settings you use. Not even buying a complete SGI encoder-farm will help you.

Why you ask ? Cause it's rated as the "UGLIEST VIDEO TRANSFER" of 2008, and one of the worst quality transfers ever. ( http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Worst_Blu-rays_of_2008/Kenneth_Brown/Little_Lumps_of_Coal:_The_Worst_Blu-rays_of_2008/2344)

MadMonkey57

23rd December 2008, 11:39

I can share some of my experiences in this debate over H.264 / quality / BD5 / BD9 / 720p / 1080p stuff.

In addition to my own personal feelings about the overall quality of my encodings, I like the objectivity of metrics. If you are interested, I suggest you start here : MSU Video Quality Measure (http://compression.ru/video/quality_measure/index_en.html). Basically, you can use tools to compare an encoding with the original movie (and even compare 2 different encodings) and thus give you an objective point of view on your encoding.

I made something like 30 encodings and ran all of them through the tools. I have come to the following arbitrary conclusion on authoring BD5s :

- Movie length < 1h45mn AND 1 AC3 audio stream 640 kbits/s : i keep 1080p
- Otherwise, I downsample to 720p.

Please again consider that this is arbitrary based on a few tests and comparisons, there are other parameters that should be considered (i.e. animation movies, fast paced action movies, top/bottom black borders, TV size, ...), but i wanted a simple rule for deciding on downsampling or not.

So far, "I" am quite happy with what I authored and "I" like what I watch on my 52" Sony LCD. The important thing is that "you" enjoy your own BD5/9s.

Fishman0919

23rd December 2008, 16:56

bd5 with 1080p is asking for blocking.
bd9 should solve it.

Well the 30 or so movies only I've reencoder at 1080p onto a BD-5 (single layer DVD) look indistinguishable from the org.

Edit: The only movie I was really forced to reencoder to BD-9 or resize to 720p so far was "The Dark Knight"

For anyone interested, here is the command line I use...
takes about 7-10 hours for me... depending on the movie.

--level 4.0 --sar 1:1 --aud --vbv-bufsize 18000 --vbv-maxrate 18000 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --direct auto --b-adapt 1 --subme 3 --trellis 2 --partitions all --8x8dct --me hex --merange 16 --no-fast-pskip --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output

--level 4.0 --sar 1:1 --aud --vbv-bufsize 18000 --vbv-maxrate 18000 --filter 0,0 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --weightb --direct auto --subme 7 --trellis 2 --partitions all --8x8dct --me umh --merange 24 --no-fast-pskip --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output

MadMonkey57

23rd December 2008, 17:19

jdobbs

23rd December 2008, 17:33

Hmmm... to me it means "I can't tell the difference." Which has been my experience as well. If someone walked into the room and saw it playing they wouldn't be able to tell if it was the original or the copy playing. Does that mean it's perfect? Probably not -- but damn close. But of course the original isn't perfect either. If you stop most original BDs playing you will see blocking as well.

I use close to the same thinking you do in deciding which way to go. But I usually decide to go BD-9 if it is over about 2.25 - 2.5 hrs, except for high-action films. Those would probably start showing at about 2 hrs.

Lately though I've been doing most of mine as a full backups (with extras, menus etc.) and I put those all (with a few small source exceptions) on BD-9s.

MadMonkey57

23rd December 2008, 17:50

Fishman0919

23rd December 2008, 18:04

What do you mean exactly by "indistinguishable" (objectivity / subjectivity) ?
What size is your TV screen ?
What length are your movies ?
How many audio streams ? What bitrates ?

You see, I'm not saying that I don't believe you (on the contrary, I'm a 100% sure you fully enjoy your movies), I'm simply trying to outline that it depends on so many technical parameters and personal preference that it's almost impossible to find the golden rule... And by the way, I believe everyone has his/her own golden rule... I believe you have found yours...

I mean... like jdobbs said... anyone watching the movie... including myself... can't tell the difference while watching it. Which is what matters to me.

Screen sizes are Sony KDL-52XBR2 52" and a Samsung HL61A750 61"

Over 30 different movies... all different lenghts.... my rule of thumb is pretty much the same as yours but I go with 2hr's plus... but not to say it still doesn't look good, just for me... got to cut off somewhere.

Just the one main audio... mostly 640k DD... sometimes with a longer movie.. I will convert the audio to 448k

MadMonkey57

23rd December 2008, 19:05

Ok. Thanks for reporting back.

As I said before, I certainly respect your point of views (both yours and jdobbs'), it's just that I personally rely more on subjective metrics than on being able to tell a difference (probably because I am not good at such a task...). Anyway, it's good to know your experiences. They give me opportunities to refine my golden rule (and quit relying on maths all the time...:p)

DVD Maniac

23rd December 2008, 19:50

You may see a beta for Christmas... but don't expect it to be bug-free.

I don't care about bugs, lived in London for much of my life and its full of nasty creatures, oh and the insects are a nightmare too.

I want a pressie to play with!
I want a pressie to play with!
I want a pressie to play with!
I want a pressie to play with!
I want a pressie to play with!

jdobbs

23rd December 2008, 20:43

Well to me it means the video quality measurement tools reach a high score comparing original and backup movies. It's just a matter of "personal preference"... Again, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. I'm just saying it's pretty hard to decide on going BD5/BD9 or 1080p/720p...With that I disagree. I've been throught the entire suite of automated "quality measuring" tools and algorithms over the past few years -- and none of them are even close to right. In fact -- when measured against human perception they don't even seem to have any reliable correlation. I've seen examples where PSNR gives good scores to video that is so terrible that it is intuitively obvious to the casual observer. Eyeballs and double-blind tests are the only reliable measurements.

As you said earlier -- it's all opinion and perception.Just the one main audio... mostly 640k DD... sometimes with a longer movie.. I will convert the audio to 448k.I convert all my discs' audio to 448K if it is 6 channel and 192K if it is 2 channel. I can't hear the difference that 640K gives...

One other thing you have to watch too: On BD sometimes the subtitles are huge. I made a backup of "The Matrix" the other day -- and the combined subtitles for just the feature came to more than a gigabyte.

moviefan

23rd December 2008, 21:02

If I may throw in my opinion on the topic of deciding whether to encode to BD5 or BD9, 1080p or 720, and how "good quality" is measured, I personally think that good quality with 2 AC3 tracks and 1080p is generally only achieved with BD9 encodes. Concerning the quality: I don't measure the quality on basis of a comparison between the original and an encode but on the subjective look of the encode, especially because my aim is not to be transparent but to improve the look for my taste. This means, I want to degrain a little and stabilize the picture because it really bothers me when there are dancing pixels in flat areas where there is no real movement at all... I like rather clean, stable and sharp picture and not this grainy stuff... Apart from the better look, in my opinion, degraining and stabilizing makes a video more compressible, so with movies shorter than 2h, a BD5 encode might look very good as well.

Wombler

23rd December 2008, 23:10

Eyeballs and double-blind tests are the only reliable measurements.

That is most definitely the case and is the ultimate test in my mind too.

If your eye can't perceive any loss in quality then to all practical intents and purposes it's as good as the original.

Equally if one version looks better than the other to the eye it's pointless to say that the quality measurement software says otherwise.

One other thing you have to watch too: On BD sometimes the subtitles are huge. I made a backup of "The Matrix" the other day -- and the combined subtitles for just the feature came to more than a gigabyte.

Wow that's unbelievable. How come they're so phenomenally huge compared to DVD?

Wombler

rendez2k

23rd December 2008, 23:49

Sharc

24th December 2008, 00:41

To me it seems that the biggest challenge for the x.264 encoder are fading flat scenes, like the blue sky at the beginning of "The bucket list" where I noticed color banding in my movie-only 720p backup with 2 AC3 tracks on a BD5

Fishman0919

24th December 2008, 08:01

I may have missed this somewhere.... I currently use RipBot264 for BR to BD9 which appears to work a treat (although it takes ages of course). What features will this have which are different or better?

It seems that jdobbs is making a BD Rebuilder... much the same as his DVD Rebuilder. It backs up the whole disc. Menu, main movie, extras... etc.

RipBot264, which is great, backs up only the main movie.

Fishman0919

24th December 2008, 08:04

Sharc

24th December 2008, 09:13

aq-mode and aq-strength can help with that.

--aq-mode 2 --aq-strength 1.0

Hmmm...., according to x264 --longhelp the --aq-mode 2 does no longer exist, only 0 or 1 are possible. Default is 1 (=Variance AQ)

Isn't --aq-mode 1 --aq-strength 1.0 set by default since a while? I thought that it needs no longer be explicitly specified, unless for values other than the default 1.0. Am I wrong here?

MadMonkey57

24th December 2008, 10:04

With that I disagree. I've been throught the entire suite of automated "quality measuring" tools and algorithms over the past few years -- and none of them are even close to right. ... Eyeballs and double-blind tests are the only reliable measurements...

...Concerning the quality: I don't measure the quality on basis of a comparison between the original and an encode but on the subjective look of the encode...

...If your eye can't perceive any loss in quality then to all practical intents and purposes it's as good as the original... Equally if one version looks better than the other to the eye it's pointless to say that the quality measurement software says otherwise...

All right, i get the message...:)
And I understand, I really do.
Nevertheless, the latest techniques and tools in terms of quality measurement deserve some consideration IMO...

Anyway, the whole point in disagreeing (in forums) is to give us a chance to widen our "field of vision" and thus to improve. I'm glad I improved.

jdobbs

24th December 2008, 13:09

Well I posted BD Rebuilder v0.17.9 (beta) for a few minutes this morning -- then realized I'd changed something overnight that made it completely stop working. So if anyone downloaded it -- don't waste your time, its broken. I'll post again after I make some changes.

[Update] Well... it looks like it may have been just a bad disc that got me all spun up. I'm still testing, but will post again if all looks well.

DVD Maniac

24th December 2008, 15:24

jdobbs,
Where is the download link? Cant see a sticky or link in this thread?

TBL

24th December 2008, 15:30

DVD Maniac: jdobbs removed the link and updated his latest post.

I'm still testing, but will post again if all looks well.

jdobbs

24th December 2008, 17:01

It's posted again. I tested it and it was just a bad disc, I burned three more and it worked fine on all.

Remember -- it's a beta. That means it has probably has bugs -- and this release is to help find them.

Fishman0919

24th December 2008, 17:25

Hmmm...., according to x264 --longhelp the --aq-mode 2 does no longer exist, only 0 or 1 are possible. Default is 1 (=Variance AQ)

Isn't --aq-mode 1 --aq-strength 1.0 set by default since a while? I thought that it needs no longer be explicitly specified, unless for values other than the default 1.0. Am I wrong here?

For Wiki (http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/X264_Settings#aq-mode)..

aq-mode

Adaptive Quantization Mode

Default: 2

Without AQ, x264 tends to underallocate bits to lower details sections. AQ is used to better distribute the available bits between all macroblocks in the video. This setting changes what scope AQ re-arranges bits in:

* 0: Do not use AQ at all.
* 1: Allow AQ to redistribute bits within each frame.
* 2: Allow AQ to redistribute bits across the whole video.

Recommendation: Default

See also: aq-strength
[edit] aq-strength

Adaptive Quantization Strength

Default: 1.0

Sets the strength of AQ bias towards low detail ('flat') macroblocks. Negative values are not allowed. Values more than a couple of hundred percent off from 1.0 are probably a bad idea.

Recommendation: Default

See also: aq-mode

Still works fine for me with build 1057

G_M_C

24th December 2008, 18:05

rendez2k

24th December 2008, 18:15

Could you provide me with the link ....

/me cant find it :?

It's in a sticky so go back to the main DVD-rb forum.

DVD Maniac

24th December 2008, 18:22

Thanks jdobbs, wiill run a trial tonight with my favorite - A few good men" which is a tad under 2 hours run time. Can I ask about the "full backup" option - does this re-encode everything as its present on the original including menu, extras and annoying rubbish? Im still waiting for a reliable tool to edit out unwanted stuff (copyright warnings, trailers etc) I usually like to keep the useful extras.

jdobbs

24th December 2008, 18:58

Could you provide me with the link ....

/me cant find it :? Look here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143716

jdobbs

24th December 2008, 18:59

Chefkoch_ico

24th December 2008, 22:39

rendez2k

24th December 2008, 22:52

Hi!

A question about compatibility with BD-9 created from BD Rebuilder:
Are they playing on a PS3?

Because of testing, I only own a BluRay enabled HTPC, so thats not kinda good testing platform.
My Brother owns a PS3 which I could also use for testing.

Will a BD-R (25GB) be more compatible?

Bye

PS3 should be fine. It's worked with all other bd-9s I've done with ripbot. I'll update you if my first test disc with this doesn't work!

zeus163

25th December 2008, 00:37

So far, I love it! I remember DVDRB back in the 0.33 days, so this is a joy to be involved with. It took a few tries for me to select the correct source since I was trying to select the source like ripbot would have me to.

I have it up and running and will test back later.

This makes my winter break almost complete!

Oh yeah, I have a PS3, so that is what I will be testing it on. Probably not until tomorrow though.

rendez2k

25th December 2008, 10:41

jdobbs

25th December 2008, 12:01

Completed my first full disc backup - Eraser. Two small issues... the first is that the BD-9 was only 93% full. Not a massive issue but would have been nice to use a bit more.

My other issue is that I burnt the BDMV and CERTIFICATE folders using ImgBurn but the PS3 picks it up as a data disc so I have to browse through the stream folder to find the main movie. Have I some how burnt it wrong or do I have to change settings in ImgBurn somewhere? Are you setting it to the correct format? The burn has to be to a UDF 2.50 format. It doesn't sound like it. Burn using the option under the FILE menu of BD Rebuilder and it should set the format correctly. Just make sure your source and working directories are set to the right place so BD-RB can find the output.

rendez2k

25th December 2008, 12:31

Are you setting it to the correct format? The burn has to be to a UDF 2.50 format. It doesn't sound like it. Burn using the option under the FILE menu of BD Rebuilder and it should set the format correctly. Just make sure your source and working directories are set to the right place so BD-RB can find the output.

It is set to UDF 2.50. I'm beginning to wonder if its the rip as I can't get the original to play in PowerDVD - it just plays with a black screen. Is there away to repair or check a rip or should I just start again with it?

Edit: Another thought. I used a cheaper DL disc just to test the output and when I browse to the stream folder on the PS3 and select the main movie it stutters like mad. Could that somehow affect the PS3 seeing it as an actual movie disc?

jdobbs

25th December 2008, 12:42

...the first is that the BD-9 was only 93% fullThere's a setting in the config file that can change the target size... (open the config from the FILE menu and you'll see it set to 7910). I set it low for beta testing to avoid oversizing. If you decide to change it, please don't post oversizing issues... I'd rather wait until later for those kinds of adjustments.

piratburner

25th December 2008, 15:16

If I only want mainvideo untouched together with one soundtrack, like in TsMuxer, is this possible ? or perhaps that is a function that going to be implemented later ?

When TsMuxer have a bug with TrueHD this should be cool

zeus163

25th December 2008, 17:48

Like rendez2k my burned disc showed up as a Data disc. So, I had to browse through the folders as well. I'm reburning the disc without using BE Rebuilder to see if the same thing happens. I'm making sure that I have UDF 2.5 set.

Of course, kids got Rockband 2 for xmas, so it'll be a few minutes (hours) before I can check it.

OK, just checked. Burnt as a data disc for the PS3 again. I plled the BDMV and the Certificate folders into imgburn. Made sure UDF 2.5 was selected (imgburn will tell me that it looks like it is burning a blu-ray anyway and set that up). I burn it and it is a data disc.

I'll have another try at this in a few days, but until then, I'll be away. Thanks for a great program and it is quite possible that this is user error.

rendez2k

25th December 2008, 18:12

Like rendez2k my burned disc showed up as a Data disc. So, I had to browse through the folders as well. I'm reburning the disc without using BE Rebuilder to see if the same thing happens. I'm making sure that I have UDF 2.5 set.

Of course, kids got Rockband 2 for xmas, so it'll be a few minutes (hours) before I can check it.

Keep us updated. I used imgburn directly checking the udf setting and it didn't work. I thought I'd read somewhere about the ps3 not working with full backups but that may have been over the network. I'm running another full backup test now and letting brr do the burning this time. If it fails, I'll try a movie only backup.

Chefkoch_ico

25th December 2008, 22:29

Hi!

For all PS3 users with the data disc problem, I think this caused because of usage of DVD media.

I will try tomorrow with both a DVD9 and a BD-RE.

Bye

zeus163

25th December 2008, 23:33

I've now used two Verbatim DVD-DL's and both show up as data discs. I'm away from the PS3 for a few days so I can't check until I get back on Saturday. I'm going to try a movie only when I get home since I can use Ripbot and and movie only and the disc is recognized.

I sure do love the ease of the program. Way to go jdobbs!

Should we move this line of wondering over to the bug thread?

rendez2k

25th December 2008, 23:55

Same here - full movies only show as data discs despite working in PowerDVD.. It appears it may be a PS3 issue as after a quick google search I came up with this (not directly related to this method of creating discs but the solution appears it might be the same) although I don't really understand what is being discussed

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b520d1/5

Maybe somebody with more knowledge can look at it and explain!

Edit: And a bit more... I use ProShow Gold to produce photography slideshows with accompanying music soundtracks. The latest version of PSG will create BD ISO images. The BDMV directory structure is all there, and the slideshow itself is rendered as a 1920x1080x60i (or 24p) .m2ts file. If I simply burn that to a regular DVD-R (instead of a BD-R) and pop it into the PS3, it shows up as a "data disc". Manually navigating into the BDMV/STREAMS/ directory and playing the 00000.m2ts file works (1920x1080 resolution, looks great).

I would like the PS3 to recognize the disc as video content and automatically begin playback (like a "real" DVD or BD would). So I've been playing with TSRemux, copying the MovieObject.bdmv and index.bdmv files from Nero and the AVC-HD calibration disc, etc. Now the PS3 does automatically start playback of the disc... one step closer!

rendez2k

26th December 2008, 01:06

OK, got a little further with this. It appears the issue is with the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv. A forum post I found advised replacing these with 'nero' ones which I did. The disc does now show as a movie disc in the PS3 but then refuses to play (goes to a black screen after a few seconds of disc activity). I'm guessing these files may have to be edited in some way to make the PS3 happy....

I loaded both the newly created BD9 with replaced nero files (top image) and the original BR rip (bottom image) into BDEdit and there were a fair few differences - maybe something to do with the HDMV vs BD-J setting?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i37/rendez2k/br.jpg

turbojet

26th December 2008, 08:52

jdobbs thanks for allowing the use of DTS and original AC3 file that I had asked about earlier.

I notice RESIZE in the ini and thought that might resize down to 720p but it doesn't seem to, what effect, if any, does it have?

Also is there any way to blank extras and menu buttons currently with any program?

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 09:47

RESIZE isn't enabled. It is there for future usage.

piratburner

26th December 2008, 10:09

I Thought this SW should have the same functionality as TsMuxer + x264 reencode, is it going to be only a encode SW ?

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 10:27

It analyzes, encodes, remuxes, and produces a backup of a BD... The concept is that it will be a BD version of DVD Rebuilder. Have you looked at it?

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 10:30

piratburner

26th December 2008, 10:54

It analyzes, encodes, remuxes, and produces a backup of a BD... The concept is that it will be a BD version of DVD Rebuilder. Have you looked at it?

So if I want to muxing the mainmovie from BD and HD sound (without reencode, it takes to long time, and i have lot of harddrivesspace for my TviX :-) )
I still need to use TsMuxer or TsREmux to get mainmovie, HD-sound/subs to a m2ts file ?

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 11:08

No. It does it all within BD Rebuilder. All you should have to do with the output is play it. TSMUXER is run from within BD Rebuilder.

piratburner

26th December 2008, 11:20

No. It does it all within BD Rebuilder. All you should have to do with the output is play it. TSMUXER is run from within BD Rebuilder.

I going to rest it again, but I don't want to use any encoder (x264) just M2TS-muxing the mainmovie/sound/sub. And there is a problem with TrueHD in TsMuxeR, have you solved that in your app ?

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 14:50

Well sorta. TrueHD is always downconverted to standard AC3..

bobrap

26th December 2008, 15:01

Just wanted to chime in and add I did The Bucket List (movie only) to BD-5 and it plays just great in PS3. :thanks:

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 15:36

Just wanted to chime in and add I did The Bucket List (movie only) to BD-5 and it plays just great in PS3. :thanks:No issues with it saying it was a Data disc? That's interesting.

piratburner

26th December 2008, 15:44

Well sorta. TrueHD is always downconverted to standard AC3..

OK ;-) so if I wan't the video untouched together with HD sound in a m2ts file, then this is not the SW I shall use ? So I continue using tsMuxeR & TsREmux and hope for a update on these 2 SW:-)

rendez2k

26th December 2008, 15:52

No issues with it saying it was a Data disc? That's interesting.

Are movie only discs technically different to full discs? I've tried all kind of tricks to get my bd5 test disc to work. I've got as far as the ps3 recognizing the disc as a proper movie but then get an unsupported movie error.

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 15:55

OK ;-) so if I wan't the video untouched together with HD sound in a m2ts file, then this is not the SW I shall use ? So I continue using tsMuxeR & TsREmux and hope for a update on these 2 SW:-) Sorry -- but it just isn't practical to make a BD-5 or BD-9 backup of a disc and keep those huge audio streams (especially since the difference isn't typically detectable in double blind tests). I can make BD Rebuilder do it (and probably will), but I'm not inclined to do so during the beta testing.

jdobbs

26th December 2008, 15:57

Are movie only discs technically different to full discs? I've tried all kind of tricks to get my bd5 test disc to work. I've got as far as the ps3 recognizing the disc as a proper movie but then get an unsupported movie error. Not in format. There is the possibility of java code in full discs (menus etc) that isn't on movie-only. But the disc structure and format is exactly the same.

zeus163

26th December 2008, 17:03

When I get back, I'm going to try movie only. I think that will work. I know it works with ripbot, but I'd like to preserve the menus as well. I'm hoping we can figure out why a whole back-up isn't working quite right with the PS3--I'm sure it is a PS3 thing. If it is the editing of the files index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv, would BD-RB be able to edit those files before burning? If we can figure out what the magic files are and how they need to be editted, maybe a check mark can be added to BD-RB that let's the program know the disc is being created for a PS3. Then you start to wonder if those discs would play on a regular blu-ray player as well with those edited files. So many thoughts going through my head right now and I'm away from my machines with blu-ray playing capabilities. Ugh.

I will also try the disc I created at my in-laws. They got a blu-ray player for xmas.

bobrap

26th December 2008, 17:14

No issues with it saying it was a Data disc? That's interesting.

No sir. Burned the disc from outside BD Rebuilder using Imgburn. Switched file system to UDF and made sure the revision was set to 2.5. Will try a full disc this evening.:D

Chefkoch_ico

27th December 2008, 08:39

Hi!

A feature request:
For backup to BD-R, it would be nice to choose to not reencode choosen Video/Audio streams.

For example in some cases its enough to reencode extras, leave out some audio of the main movie and reencode (or not) audio of the main movie. So there is no need to reencode the main movie itself.

Best regards

jdobbs

27th December 2008, 13:45

You can do that with audio, but you really have no choice with video. The maximum bitrate is too high on the original for BD-5 or BD-9 and it freezes/stutters if it isn't reencoded with a lower max.

Chefkoch_ico

27th December 2008, 13:49

You can do that with audio, but you really have no choice with video. The maximum bitrate is too high on the original for BD-5 or BD-9 and it freezes/stutters if it isn't reencoded with a lower max.

I meant for BD-R Single Layer 25GB. There this should not be a problem.

piratburner

27th December 2008, 15:45

NobbyNobbs

28th December 2008, 07:27

As you came out with the beta, just as I got a BD drive for my new PC, I just had to click on the "donate" button in DVD-RB again, just as a thank you for giving us a new toy to play with :D

jdobbs

28th December 2008, 09:58

Thanks. Much appreciated. :)

Sophocles

28th December 2008, 18:54

I have no complaints except reading through your bug thread where those who would rather debate than contribute have found their way. This is part of the reason that I finally stopped beta testing DiVx H.264.

On a plus note Donald and I have together completed 4 BD movies with success. I re-encoded an art film classic;) "The Devils Rejects" with High Quality slower encode settings. The movie has an estimated run time of 2:09 and it took just under 4 hours.

Nice work. I don't suppose it will convert HD DVD to BD?

jikchung

30th December 2008, 00:04

I don't suppose it will convert HD DVD to BD?

I hope that it does, I have a stack of those to convert...

Sophocles

30th December 2008, 05:16

These are some questions asked in another forum.

Quick question on the installation. I don't understand on the video decoder configuration on FFDSHOW that MPEG2 decoding is supposed to be enabled. Well on Codecs, MPEG2 format is selected, Decoder is libmpeg2. Is this it? Or I have to check the checkbox "DVD decoding" at the bottom also? I have the latest FFDSHOW revision 2527 (Dec 19, 2008).

Regarding Matroska Splitter (it's called Haali Media Splitter 1.8.122.18), choosing the default settings at the installation is fine? So Matroska handles mkv file? Doesn't FFDSHOW already support it?

So BD-RB converts to BD or AVCHD format? And these can be burned onto DVD5/9 and played on BD standalone player, correct?

Do you know any free players that can play BD?

I assume I will get the PowerDVD BD software if I buy the retail BD burner? If I buy one from newegg as OEM, then no software, no connectors, nada, nothing? I'm not crazy in catching up with technology. Their prices will soon fall in another year or two.

Hey, all these questions means I'm going from a DVD enthusiast to a BD newbie - I'm going back to first grade. Soon I will be catching up to ya'll. I will learn the details of BD structure as I did with DVD structure to do some complex reauthoring.
Edit/Delete Message

jdobbs

30th December 2008, 13:57

Quick question on the installation. I don't understand on the video decoder configuration on FFDSHOW that MPEG2 decoding is supposed to be enabled. Well on Codecs, MPEG2 format is selected, Decoder is libmpeg2. Is this it? Yes.
Or I have to check the checkbox "DVD decoding" at the bottom also? Nope.
Regarding Matroska Splitter (it's called Haali Media Splitter 1.8.122.18), choosing the default settings at the installation is fine? So Matroska handles mkv file? Doesn't FFDSHOW already support it? This is needed so BD-RB can read M2TS files during encoding via the DirectShowSource() AVISYNTH funtion.
So BD-RB converts to BD or AVCHD format? And these can be burned onto DVD5/9 and played on BD standalone player, correct?No. It converts from BD-25/50 to BD-5/9/25. But yes, the purpose is to support standalone playback.
Do you know any free players that can play BD?I don't. But I'm no expert on that.
I assume I will get the PowerDVD BD software if I buy the retail BD burner?Not necessarily.

rack04

30th December 2008, 22:02

No. It converts from BD-25/50 to BD-5/9/25. But yes, the purpose is to support standalone playback.

I think there is still alot of discussion about whether or not tsMuxer creates a BD-5/9/25 or AVCHD. Supposedly tsMuxeR uses typical AVCHD output from Nero Vision, including index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv.

For those who have been successful with BD Rebuilder, does your standalone player show the disk being played is an AVCHD or BD?

jdobbs

30th December 2008, 23:16

the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files from TSMUXER aren't used by BD Rebuilder. So the discussion would be only academic anyway. It uses the ones from the original disc.

writersblock29

31st December 2008, 00:36

rack04

31st December 2008, 01:00

the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files from TSMUXER aren't used by BD Rebuilder. So the discussion would be only academic anyway. It uses the ones from the original disc.

Thanks for the info jdobbs. Is there anything that changes in the tsMuxeR Blu-ray Disc output to use the original disc .bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files or is it a simple overwrite?

BobZhome

31st December 2008, 02:33

For those who have been successful with BD Rebuilder, does your standalone player show the disk being played is an AVCHD or BD?

My Sony BDP-S350 lists my backups as a AVCHD.

jdobbs

31st December 2008, 02:47

Some of the Sonys have a strange way of listing it. If you do a BD-9 it says BD-ROM, if you do a BD-5 is says AVCHD -- even it it is the exact same content. I'm guessing you put in a BD-5?

BobZhome

31st December 2008, 04:21

Some of the Sonys have a strange way of listing it. If you do a BD-9 it says BD-ROM, if you do a BD-5 is says AVCHD -- even it it is the exact same content. I'm guessing you put in a BD-5?

Nope, I used a Memorex(RITEK D01) DVD+R DL. Which gets pretty good quality scores with my burner.

jdobbs

31st December 2008, 11:43

Interesting. Your player, then, probably just calls anything that uses the red laser "AVCHD".

Furiousflea

31st December 2008, 14:08

My Sony BDP-S350 lists my backups as a AVCHD.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but does that play your menus ok maybe it's treating it as AVCHD and not allowing the menu if that is the case.

Sorry for my rude interrupting of the thread I'm looking to purchase this player.

MadMonkey57

31st December 2008, 14:50

@Rack04

The disks show up as BD on both stand-alone players I've tested my BD Rebuilder backups on. Arcsoft Totalmedia Theatre also sees them as BD. I'm no expert on set top players, so I'm not sure if there's a model or two out there that would see them as something different. But if it plays and behaves like your original disk, does it matter?

My Sony BDP-S350 lists my backups as a AVCHD.

Some of the Sonys have a strange way of listing it. If you do a BD-9 it says BD-ROM, if you do a BD-5 is says AVCHD -- even it it is the exact same content. I'm guessing you put in a BD-5?

Nope, I used a Memorex(RITEK D01) DVD+R DL. Which gets pretty good quality scores with my burner.

Interesting. Your player, then, probably just calls anything that uses the red laser "AVCHD".

I can comment on the way the Panasonic BD35 behaves... So far, i fed it only with red laser DVD-5:

- output from tsmuxer (i.e hybrid AVCHD/BD) : well accepted and reported as an AVCHD.
- output from Adobre Encore CS4 (i.e BD) and probably other commercial software as well : reported as an unsupported disc
- output from Adobe Encore CS4 patched so that index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv are AVCHD compliant (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828) (i.e hybrid AVCHD/BD) : well accepted and reported as an AVCHD

It's a pity I have to go the "hybrid way" but it's my only option so far...

jdobbs

31st December 2008, 15:38

output from Adobe Encore CS4 patched so that index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv are AVCHD compliant (i.e hybrid AVCHD/BD) : well accepted and reported as an AVCHD
My guess is, though, that it wouldn't work with a disc that uses BD-JAVA... have you tried any of those? Typically you'll see a "Loading..." message at some point on those.

MadMonkey57

31st December 2008, 15:49

My guess is, though, that it wouldn't work with a disc that uses BD-JAVA... have you tried any of those? Typically you'll see a "Loading..." message at some point on those.

No, haven't tried (I don't think I own a BD-JAVA disc...). Nevertheless, it wouldn't be much of a problem coz I'm primarily aiming at main movie only backup.

zeus163

31st December 2008, 22:47

Hey!

I haven't been following the whole disc process for the PS3 for a day or so, but wanted to let jdobbs know that a donation was sent your way. Thanks for taking on this herculean task!

smnckl

29th January 2009, 05:07

@jdobbs

A small(?) request. On the movie-only backups made using your excellent BD-RB app, the movie ends and then it loops back and starts from the beginning. I am sure that there are people who like the old 8-track continuous loop.
Would it be possible for you to add a static menu, a la ConvertXtoDVD, and have the player return to that when the movie ends? Possibly paused with a VCR "Play" button image on the screen or like ConvertXtoDVD which plays a 10-15 second clip of the movie with audio.

Just say NO if it is too much coding to implement. 8-)

James

jdobbs

30th January 2009, 07:41

I'll do that at some point. But I first want to just make where it is more stable rather than add more features (with more bugs).

smnckl

1st February 2009, 22:54

I'll do that at some point. But I first want to just make where it is more stable rather than add more features (with more bugs).

Thanks for considering the suggestion. I understand the situation and am happy to wait.

Great job till now... have only had one issue so far when I messed up either Haali's or Avisynth when I did a disc cleanup, removing lots of other beta apps that I no longer use. The error message was

[16:52:57] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [16:55:31] Collecting video information [00001]
- Error [01:-1] returned from encoder. Retrying.
- Error [02:-1] returned from encoder. Retrying.
- Error [03:-1] returned from encoder. Retrying.
- Reached retry limit. Aborting.
[16:55:33] - Failed video encode, aborted

My question here is, does your trap routine recognize which app failed? If so, could it output a hint as to what the user needs to do to rectify the issue? If the trap does not go further, just forget I asked. :devil:

Thanks.

James