Blu-Ray~DVD Backup & Conversion

[jikchung]

Yeah, they're back up to $400 over here and no deals on free discs since HD-DVD is gone.

[blutach]

Yeah, they're back up to $400 over here and no deals on free discs since HD-DVD is gone.
Now, that's a surprise!

Regards

[Wombler]

Each one took 9 hours (for 2 passes) on my quad-core Phenom 9500 system, though.

That's not too bad though considering the amount of data involved.


Wombler

[Rectal Prolapse]

To the OP: Should be easier now that Blu-ray burners are cheaper now ($350 for the LG GGW-H20L burner and combo reader in some places).

Also, PS3 has been updated to allow playback of the LTH BD-Rs developed by Panasonic - so BD-R media should be very cheap soon (under $8 is my guess - someone mentioned they are available at that price (not discounted yet) but I haven't seen them yet - but who knows?).

[Lorax2161]

I will say, though, that I did an AVCHD encode of a DVD yesterday (MPEG-2->raw picture->h.264) and wrote it to a DVD-5 (movie-only, of course). The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting. It definitely is slower than what many of us are used to, though.

This is very impressive. May I ask the specs of your TV that you view them on?

Many of us have TVs of modest size, and a lot of encodes that look good on our sets may fall apart visually on a display with better resolution. If you have a great TV and they look good on yours, that tells me a lot.

I'll throw in a vote for h.264's inclusion into DVD Rebuilder as well. What an amazing program that would be. Maybe all of our SD DVDs won't end up at yard sales after all. :)

Thanks.

[jobe228]

I've been watching this thread with interest now. I still have lots of blank DVDR and DVD9's so HD backup would be awesome if automated within DVD-RB.

[rudolfo2]

i've been following this thread for a while...

jdobbs: That's great your tests came out so well! Is there any chance of a BR --> 720 or 1080 recode on dvd5/9 into rebuilder (or even a new tool)?

To be honest, I would probably donate again if these features would ever be implemented (especially with the additional dev time it would take you)
I would gladly donate again too.

[jdobbs]

This is very impressive. May I ask the specs of your TV that you view them on?

Many of us have TVs of modest size, and a lot of encodes that look good on our sets may fall apart visually on a display with better resolution. If you have a great TV and they look good on yours, that tells me a lot.

I'll throw in a vote for h.264's inclusion into DVD Rebuilder as well. What an amazing program that would be. Maybe all of our SD DVDs won't end up at yard sales after all. :)

Thanks. I play back on a 52" Sony LCD monitor via HDMI connections. It has native 1920x1080 resolution.

[TheBreen]

This sounds exciting! I am just catching up with the world of HD, so please tell me if I have this right. DVD-RB might in future be able to take a full BR rip and compress it to a DVD9 for example, which would result in video quality superior to a DVD9 commercial release? And this high-quality copy would play in a stand-alone BR player or HTPC with BR reader.

I take it DVD-RB would require a standard BR video format? Or is there some possibility of converting MKV files or even HD-DVD format to compressed BR-format-on-DVD?

[Sharc]

..... I will say, though, that I did an AVCHD encode of a DVD yesterday (MPEG-2->raw picture->h.264) and wrote it to a DVD-5 (movie-only, of course). The picture was perfect... not just good... to my eyes it was a perfect reproduction of the original MPEG-2 stream. So for backing up a movie-only DVD for playback on a BluRay standalone -- this method is really exciting. It definitely is slower than what many of us are used to, though.

BTW, just did a couple more backups of BD over the weekend. It really looks good. I did them at 1280x720 in h.264 with DD 5.1 @ 448Kbs. It looks fantastic on a DVD-5. Each one took 9 hours (for 2 passes) on my quad-core Phenom 9500 system, though.

What about doing the same - i.e. DVD movie backups and BD novie backups onto DVD5/9 - using XviD encoder instead of H.264 AVCHD? Would the results be similar, or is it expected to be much inferior? Would the resolution have to be kept to 720*480/576, or would upsizing (720p) for DVD's also be an option?
I am asking because most (low cost) DVD standalone players can playback XviD files today.

[Boulder]

AFAIK, standalones don't support XviD's advanced features much..for example custom quantization matrices cause problems. The standalone-compatible profile is quite limited.

See the hardware players section, I think there's a good amount of information there.

[jdobbs]

XviD just doesn't deliver the same quality at the same bitrate as H.264. It does significantly better than MPEG-2 -- but not as well as AVC. Also, XviD wouldn't be able to playback HD, and it isn't compatible with BluRay players (at least none that I've seen).

[~bT~]

What about doing the same - i.e. DVD movie backups and BD novie backups onto DVD5/9 - using XviD encoder instead of H.264 AVCHD? Would the results be similar, or is it expected to be much inferior? Would the resolution have to be kept to 720*480/576, or would upsizing (720p) for DVD's also be an option?
I am asking because most (low cost) DVD standalone players can playback XviD files today.
that would be a disaster IMO.

[Sharc]

Thanks for the comments. Apparently main problem with XviD is the missing standards which put compatibility with different DVD standalones at risk.

[laserfan]

Also, XviD wouldn't be able to playback HDNot sure what you mean by this. I can convert 1920x1080p high-bitrate programs to 720p HD Xvid and play them back on my Sigma Designs HD media player (over my network). The only way to tell the conversion from the original is in a side-by-side comparison.

[jdobbs]

The discussion was about playback on a standalone player. See the two posts just before mine.

[laserfan]

The discussion was about playback on a standalone player.Ah, you meant a DVD player. NM!

[jdobbs]

In testing I've done a number of these now. I backup to DVD-5 using 1280x720 and AC3 @448Kbs. I also have done a group of them at 1920x1080 on DVD-9 with the AC3@640Kbs (typical for Blu-Ray).

They look really, really good. Not just "ok" -- but to my eyes they are pretty much lossless reproductions of the original. Interestingly... even through my 52" LCD display has a native resolution of 1920x1080... I really can't tell the difference in sound or video between the two (DVD-5 and DVD-9) formats.

[Wombler]

In testing I've done a number of these now. I backup to DVD-5 using 1280x720 and AC3 @448Kbs. I also have done a group of them at 1920x1080 on DVD-9 with the AC3@640Kbs (typical for Blu-Ray).

They look really, really good. Not just "ok" -- but to my eyes they are pretty much lossless reproductions of the original. Interestingly... even through my 52" LCD display has a native resolution of 1920x1080... I really can't tell the difference in sound or video between the two (DVD-5 and DVD-9) formats.

Amazing!

So DVD-5 is a more than realistic prospect.

I might switch to Blu-Ray yet! :)


Wombler

[Fishman0919]

My copy of "I Am Legend" from BluRay onto a DVD5 at 720p with 640K AC3 looks, to me, as good as the Org. Really no need, right now, to buy Blank BluRay discs.... DVD5 and DVD9 work just fine.

[jdobbs]

I think it's the incredible efficiency of the h.264 codec. I've been using X264 to create the video. I feed it an AVS file that uses DirectShowSource() -- and have the FFDSHOW pack installed (with MPEG-2 decoding enabled) so it covers the source formats. In case anyone else wants to try it, here are the tools I've been using for testing:

1. TSMuxer -- to extract the audio when I'm reencoding it. (sometimes I'll use FFMPEG to reencode from 640Kbs AC3 5.1 to 448Kbs AC3 5.1). TSMuxer can also convert DTS-HD and AC3-HD to "standard" types during the demux.
2. BDEdit -- Most discs contain a single M2TS stream that contains the entire movie. But some (e.g. discs with more than one version like theatrical and special) use multiple stream files. BDEdit identifies file that are linked together to make one "version". TSMuxer can then be used to append them together.
3. X264 to reencode the video.
4. TSMuxer -- to remux the new video with the audio and create a "Blu-ray" folder.
5. ImgBurn -- to burn to UDF 2.5 format on either DVD+-R DVD-5 or DVD-9.

You can also just use RIPBOT264 and it will do all the work for you on most discs. I like to have control, though, so I do it mostly by hand.

To playback, I simply insert the disc into my Sony standalone. It sees the disc as "AVCHD" and plays back in high-def.

As I watch I simply marvel at the quality. I honestly thought it would be harder than this. My opinion based upon what I have seen is that it is a myth that huge "blu-ray disc sizes" are required for decent high-def. The increased efficiency of the h.264 codec is alone enough to compress HD to DVD sizes.

Of course there is still that "it takes a long time to encode" issue. I've gotten the time down a little on my quad-core Phenom machine -- but it still is an overnight task. It can also have a very heavy disc requirement. It's not unusual for the original disc to take up 40GB on you hard drive, and during processing you may sometimes need 60GB or more. Also, currently "movie-only" HD backups are the only kind I've attempted.

[Sharc]

In testing I've done a number of these now. I backup to DVD-5 using 1280x720 and AC3 @448Kbs. I also have done a group of them at 1920x1080 on DVD-9 with the AC3@640Kbs (typical for Blu-Ray).

They look really, really good. Not just "ok" -- but to my eyes they are pretty much lossless reproductions of the original. Interestingly... even through my 52" LCD display has a native resolution of 1920x1080... I really can't tell the difference in sound or video between the two (DVD-5 and DVD-9) formats.
Your test results are about backup of standard DVDs using h264/AVCHD onto DVD5 or backup of Blu-Ray onto DVD5/9?

Edit:
Simultaneous posting.... -> So you refer to the backup of Blu-Ray Disks.

[Fishman0919]

huge "blu-ray disc sizes" are required for decent high-def.

Well... with the large BluRay disc size... you could fit several excellent quality 720p HD movies on 1 disc.

A 25gb blank should yield 5 movies.

[jdobbs]

Your test results are about backup of standard DVDs using h264/AVCHD onto DVD5 or backup of Blu-Ray onto DVD5/9? In the last couple of posts I've been talking about backing up Blu-ray originals to DVD+-R. I've done h.264 backups of DVDs as well, though. I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR-based ratios to correct playback. I never got it to work with FFMPEG.EXE, though. I'd love to find out how that's done. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original. In fact, you could probably fit 2-3 of them on a DVD-5 with near-perfect reproduction -- but I don't know how to do that yet (so you could select them) with the tools I currently have available and haven't tested it.

I've also done some up-scaling of DVDs to 1280x720 from the original 720x480...

[Fishman0919]

In the last couple of posts I've been talking about backing up Blu-ray originals to DVD+-R. I've done h.264 backups of DVDs as well, though. I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR ratios to correct playback. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original. In fact, you could probably fit 2-3 of them on a DVD-5 with near-perfect reproduction -- but I don't know how to do that yet (so you could select them) with the tools I currently have available.

Have you tried fitting a single DVD onto a CD-R... that was my next project.... I'am away from home now and a bit busy with work.

Probably have to convert the audio to 2 ch... or just use the 2 ch AC3.

[jdobbs]

Hmmm. I guess it would be a good academic test -- but with DVD+R discs as cheap as they are, I'm not sure there's a lot of advantage. I'll run one through today for the hell of it. It would be interesting to know if the player recognizes the AVCHD format on CD-R...

[Fishman0919]

Hmmm. I guess it would be a good academic test -- but with DVD+R discs as cheap as they are, I'm not sure there's a lot of advantage. I'll run one through today for the hell of it. It would be interesting to know if the player recognizes the AVCHD format on CD-R...


I was going to do it most or less for sh#@! and giggles. But it would be nice to know it's possible

[Sharc]

I managed to fix the 720x480 aspect issue I ran into earlier -- with X264 you need to use SAR-based ratios to correct playback. I never got it to work with FFMPEG.EXE, though. I'd love to find out how that's done. Backing up DVD with X264 gives you a pretty much perfect movie-only copy of your original............
I've also done some up-scaling of DVDs to 1280x720 from the original 720x480...
Hmmm, would it be possible to include the x264 encoder in DVD-RB plus suitable profiles in the MOBILE section for DVD movie backups?

[jdobbs]

You may have noticed I included an experimental profile that does 1280x720 up-converting for AVCHD in the 1.27.3 release (under the MOBILE profiles). It uses FFMPEG to encode. You may want to try it. You'd just have to, then, use TSMuxer to bring the video/audio into the right format (the audio file is already demuxed and exists in the D2VAVS directory, or you could use the 2 channel reencode that is output into the TS file of the profile) and output to Blu-ray format.

It's my intent to include X264 in either the next release or the one after that for that purpose.

[Sharc]

:thanks:

[duramaximus]

You may have noticed I included an experimental profile that does 1280x720 up-converting for AVCHD in the 1.27.3 release (under the MOBILE profiles). It uses FFMPEG to encode. You may want to try it. You'd just have to, then, use TSMuxer to bring the video/audio into the right format (the audio file is already demuxed and exists in the D2VAVS directory, or you could use the 2 channel reencode that is output into the TS file of the profile) and output to Blu-ray format.

It's my intent to include X264 in either the next release or the one after that for that purpose.

Sooooo happy to hear this!!!!!

I am currently playing with Ripbot264 and blurays. The quality, like you said, is amazing!

I currently am a subscriber to your products and look forward to the future releases.

You rock!!!!

[Video Dude]

Is there subtitle support in AVCHD?

[jdobbs]

I believe so, but I haven't tested it.

[rudolfo2]

Is backup of the Blu-ray DVD really necessary ?? Blu-Ray DVD is protected with coating to last at least 30 years ( according to Sony ).I would concentrate on transfer of current standard movies to Blu-Ray.To go from seven racks ( 200 titles each ) to just one or two on Blu-Ray media would be for me fantastic, I wouldn't ask for more.

[blutach]

Sorry, I don't believe people who put rootkits on CDs and pirate software from small s/w houses while closing down people who try to help you back up your legally purchased material.

Regards

[jdobbs]

There's also the other uses that are prevented (like Linux compatibility, simpler software players, editing, etc.) Also... have you played any of these commercial BD discs on your standalone BD player? The start up time can sometimes be several minutes -- while you stare aimlessly at the "loading..." screen. I can put an AVCHD disc into my player and it starts immediately.

It's all about giving the people what they want -- not forcing them to take what you want them to have.

I also like the idea of adding multiple DVD titles to a single BD... but the price is going to have to come down a lot (as I'm sure it will) before it's justified economically. Right now it costs $25.00 to get the same space as $3.00 in DVD+R discs.

[rudolfo2]

I just found at newegg.com 25x cake ( Blu-Ray-R ) for $ 199,00, that's $ 8 a piece.Quality is ?? here, but it's a start.

[cdanddvdpublisher]

I just found at newegg.com 25x cake ( Blu-Ray-R ) for $ 199,00, that's $ 8 a piece.Quality is ?? here, but it's a start.

Well, as long as its not horrible quality, how can you go wrong with that price?!

[steptoe]

So if you're adding some support for Blue-Ray to DVD, does this mean there is a slim possibility of adding the support to accept AVI files to DVD


Time to donate some more again I think as a lot of people are very interested in this idea of Blue-Ray to DVD

[Sharc]

I backed up the movie from a standard DVD onto DVD5 using x264 and upscaling to 720p. Average bitrate 2200 kbps. Quality is very good, on my old system (P4 2.5G) it took 28 hours to complete the job => Time to investigate the quality of single pass encoding with x264 for comparison....

[jdobbs]

Hehe... no kidding. Actually I have a little app I put together for doing that. But I haven't used it much. You can also change the first pass to make it a lot faster and still keep the quality of the second pass.

x264 has great quality -- but all the extra processing that makes it so much more efficient also takes a lot of cpu... it's about like MPEG-2 encoding a few years ago.

[Boulder]

it took 28 hours to complete the job => Time to investigate the quality of single pass encoding with x264 for comparison....CRF at 18 is considered transparent by many.

[Sharc]

I made a short test clip of a difficult scene with CRF=29 which resulted in an average bitrate of about 2200 kbps - ie similar to the former 2-pass. The result was still amazingly good and not noticeably worse than the previous 2 pass encode.

[jdobbs]

I've noticed (at least in the limited testing I've done) that most of my CRF values for 1280x720 on DVD-5 come in between 18.5 and 21. I'm still running tests on 1920x1080 on DVD-9.

[Sharc]

Has anyone tried to playback anamorphic upscaled DVDs on BluRay standalones or on a PS3? On SW players it seems to work. Is "anamorphic" included in the BluRay standard?

[jdobbs]

Yes it is. But, I can tell you that if you are encoding it with x264 you have to set the aspect to some odd values because it is based on SAR. For example on a 720x480 source that you want to display (anamorphic) in 16:9 you have to set it to "--sar 32:27"

Here's a list I pulled from a table I found online:

720x480 (NTSC)
- 4:3 -> --sar 8:9
- 16:9 -> --sar 32:27

704x480 (NTSC Crop)
- 4:3 -> --sar 10:11
- 16:9 -> --sar 40:33

720x576 (PAL)
- 4:3 -> --sar 16:15
- 16:9 -> --sar 64:45

704x576 (PAL Crop)
- 4:3 -> --sar 12:11
- 16:9 -> --sar 16:11

Hope this helps. It was something I had to deal with when I started trying DVD conversions to Blu-ray.

Of course the 1280x720 and 1920x1080 conversions both have a sar of 1:1.

[Sharc]

Yes, I went through this painful experience with the SAR. Thank you for clarification. I assume the SAR is not specified / flagged in the original stream, i.e. one has to set it manually?

[jdobbs]

The aspect ratio of the source is the display aspect ratio and is either 16:9 or 4:3, in the source stream's sequence_header as well as the IFO. You have to be careful though, and use the aspect shown in the IFO. There were a few older 16:9 DVDs that had the aspect set to 4:3 in the stream and 16:9 in the IFO. The IFO drives the real output aspect ratio in DVD -- so use that one.

Since there are only two aspect ratios (4:3 and 16:9) in DVD and almost all DVDs are 720x480 or 720x576, it makes it a little easier.

[Sharc]

:thanks: for the explanations. Very clear now, helps to quit my trial-and-error attempts.

[Sharc]

I feel reasonably comfortable now with the DAR, SAR, PAR, cropping etc. Now the question: Would I eventually have to add black borders to fill the gap to the 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 respectively, after upscaling a standard DVD (cropped or uncropped) in order to comply with the BluRay standard and to ensure the playback on a Blu-Ray standalone?
I am asking because I have no Blu-Ray standalone yet to verify the results.