On2 VP7

[SpaceV]

Hi ON2 Guys,

I just read VP7 is demoed in Asia, when can we play with it?

Also the new Ninelanes Settop box webpage is showcasing VP4/5!!

Why is that, isnt that bad for ON2 that they demo 2-3 year old codecs??? I looked at their demo VP5 streams, nothing to be pround of
in my optinion. You guys should tell em to demo your best, the settop box is able to decode VP6 !

[virus]

I did a Google search and learned that there's a glycoprotein called VP7 :D

For the rest, the only real hint can be found in the On2's Investor Presentation... "actively developing VP7 for 2004 release". I don't expect the devs to give away any detail soon, so I guess we just have to wait.
My humble opinion is that VP7 would be required to match VP6.2 quality at 10-15% less bitrate at least, in order to keep up with the crowd of upcoming H.264 implementations (complete and well-tuned ones, not just buggy demos ;)). Whether this is actually possible remains to be seen.

cheers :)
virus

[SpaceV]

I expect it to be at least 20% if not 25-35% better than VP6.2

If not, it does not deserve the name VP7 but should be VP6.3.

Wonder what else is new....

Please any ON2 guy give us some scoop, we wont tell anyone ;)

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by SpaceV
I expect it to be at least 20% if not 25-35% better than VP6.2

If not, it does not deserve the name VP7 but should be VP6.3.

Wonder what else is new....

Please any ON2 guy give us some scoop, we wont tell anyone ;)

From what I've heard and read it is at least a 30% "improvement" over VP6.2. It is currently being shown to select companies in China. JMO but I wouldn't expect a personal use VP7 any time soon.

[virus]

Originally posted by the Mad Duke
From what I've heard and read it is at least a 30% "improvement" over VP6.2.
quoting from on2.com [about VP6.2]:
"Achieves same quality as VP6.1 at up to 50% lower data rates"... well, imho this is ridiculous BS. Let's not listen to their marketing department anymore, please ;)

IMHO a perfectly-tuned H.264 codec can bring the same quality as VP6.2 with maybe 15-20% less bitrate, maybe even 25%. But for sure not more. I don't believe that a tool capable of shrinking a VP6.2 encode down of an "at least 30%" amount with the same quality will be available even in 2008... let's imagine in 2004...

virus

[aketon]

I hope that they are going to add b-frames in VP7! B-frames are going to give a real push to their codec! Have you ever tested VP6.2 with any mpeg-4 codec with b-frames disabled??? You will see some very interesting results!:D VP6.2 is by far in this cases the best codec!;)

[SpaceV]

I really hope they release it to the public as they did with VP6
and why shouldnt they?? There was no harm done by releasing VP6.

I think they even gained from feedback, especially from sites like Doom9.

They want the codec to be used, they need a big base and attract some
attention so people see there is more than DivX and WMV etc...

VP6 will be used for the new Sims2, hope it reaches a big crowd that way.

[Bulletproof]

I liked VP6, I hope VP7 will be competitive against H264 that would be great, the more competition, the better. Maybe ON2Tech can shed some more light on VP7?

[On2Tech]

We're pleased that everyone's taken notice of our recent developments. Right now unfortunately all that we can offer is word that there will be additional information on our web site in the relatively near future about VP7. You can imagine how excited we are about the new version of our codec, and I'd love to share more information directly with you, but being a public company, we have to be sensitive about the manner in which information like this is disclosed.

Thanks,

On2Tech

[Sirber]

If you want I can include it to RealAnime ;)

[aketon]

Is there going to be a linux version of VP7???:D

[aketon]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040913/nym113_1.html

"We believe that the VP7 codec will be proven to be by far the best codec in the world"


I hope so!:D

[JohnV]

Waiting for some proofs. A closed presentation showing some businessmen how good it is compared to the competitors and the normal marketing hype doesn't exactly assure me. Last year until now MS has hyped that WM9/VC9/VC1 (what ever you want to call it) is better than h.264 in different exhibitions etc. I wonder how long they are going to continue now that higher quality implementations start to appear.. ;)
Not even VP7 streams/decoder is publicly available, so makes me wonder whether it's ready yet for public dissection. ;)
Well, marketing hype is one thing, but for their sake they better walk the walk also. ;)

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by JohnV
Waiting for some proofs. A closed presentation showing some businessmen how good it is compared to the competitors and the normal marketing hype doesn't exactly assure me. Last year until now MS has hyped that WM9/VC9/VC1 (what ever you want to call it) is better than h.264 in different exhibitions etc. I wonder how long they are going to continue now that higher quality implementations start to appear.. ;)
Not even VP7 streams/decoder is publicly available, so makes me wonder whether it's ready yet for public dissection. ;)
Well, marketing hype is one thing, but for their sake they better walk the walk also. ;)

Keep in mind that On2 is a very small company that is publicly traded on the AMEX stock exchange. They compete against an alleged monopoly like M$FT and a huge conglomeration like MPEG LA. It is to their best interest and to the share holders of the company to show their new improved codec to potential clients before releasing it to the public. I have followed the Duck Corporation almost since it's inception and personally would not doubt their claims to the performance of VP7.

[Doom9]

well, they still have my email address, so if they want to have their best offering in the next codec comparison.... (but don't get all excited about that now, right now I don't even have a PC at home)

[stephanV]

If its anything better than VP6.2 (which would be logical to assume), it would already be a great codec. :)

Ah well, patience is a virtue :)

[Tommy Carrot]

Originally posted by the Mad Duke
I have followed the Duck Corporation almost since it's inception and personally would not doubt their claims to the performance of VP7.

I don't know, their marketing department likes to exaggerate a bit, to say the least. Probably some of you can remember their infamous statements about VP3 outperforming mpeg4, VP4 delivering the same quality than mpeg4 at half bitrate, VP6 outperforming H.264 (it's easy to say this when there is no decent implementation out there), etc.

So i take their statements with a grain of salt. I certainly hope it will be true, but we'll see.

[IgorC]

Dont forget. Vp 6.2 is the best video codec untill H.264 will be realese

[Sirber]

Originally posted by IgorC
Dont forget. Vp 6.2 is the best video codec untill H.264 will be realese What is that comment? What if he likes more XviD quality? Maybe it's the best codec for you but it's certainly not for me :o

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by Doom9
well, they still have my email address, so if they want to have their best offering in the next codec comparison.... (but don't get all excited about that now, right now I don't even have a PC at home)

Perhaps the fellow doing the test for PC Magazine on the Best Quality thread might want to contact On2 to see if they will let him compare VP7. It can't hurt to ask. The worst they can so is no.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by the Mad Duke
I have followed the Duck Corporation almost since it's inception and personally would not doubt their claims to the performance of VP7. Hehheh, show me one marketing department of any company in this area of business that doesn't exaggerate at all..

On2 marketing has exaggerated before quite a lot, like Tommy Carrot pointed out (so does practically all companies to some extend so that's nothing special). Anybody who has followed this business should know that what marketing departments say should be taken with grain of salt.

I'm suspicious, because On2 doesn't show even demo streams comparing VP 6.2 and 7. Obviously they are trying to get deals for example in China as quickly as possible. Maybe public presentation doesn't fit to their strategy for some reason..

[Sagittaire]

Originally posted by JohnV
Hehheh, show me one marketing department of any company in this area of business that doesn't exaggerate at all..


another example ... lol

Originally posted by Gej
We have tested several clips produced by the studios and mapped PSNR against bitrate for both codecs. Results to be posted on DivX Labs soon. And we never said x2 more powerfull but 30% smaller bitrate at same PSNR than WM9.

perhabs with VP6 or H264 Ateme but certainely not with MPEG4 ASP and DivX ... :devil:

[virus]

a small note, just to keep the gossips going... :D

If you browse On2's clients and partners list (http://www.on2.com/clients.php3) you'll find a company named RealNetworks. I guess some of you already know them :)

Now, what is the relationship between On2 and RN? Some sort of anti-MPEG alliance? or maybe anti-M$ tactics? or...?

:devil:
virus

[slavickas]

Originally posted by virus
a small note, just to keep the gossips going... :D

If you browse On2's clients and partners list (http://www.on2.com/clients.php3) you'll find a company named RealNetworks. I guess some of you already know them :)

Now, what is the relationship between On2 and RN? Some sort of anti-MPEG alliance? or maybe anti-M$ tactics? or...?

:devil:
virus

vp4 plugin for realplayer?

btw there is more interesting threads than repeating over over "don't believe in marketing hype". i just know vp6 is good codec, vp7 should be better DOT

[JohnV]

Well, On2 is a pretty small company, and although I'm a MPEG-4 supporter, anything that is away from Microsoft is a good thing imo. :D
The last thing I want is a Microsoft media monopoly and MS control of media usage. I certainly don't want to be "forced" to use some average quality MS controlled media in the future.

Though companies like DivxNetworks isn't helping MPEG-4 much either since all it seems to care about is its own implementation of "DivX". MPEG-4 compatibility concept is totally secondary to DXN.

Hopefully VP7 is good enough codec that it drives the competition and development of all codecs further.

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by virus
a small note, just to keep the gossips going... :D

If you browse On2's clients and partners list (http://www.on2.com/clients.php3) you'll find a company named RealNetworks. I guess some of you already know them :)

Now, what is the relationship between On2 and RN? Some sort of anti-MPEG alliance? or maybe anti-M$ tactics? or...?

:devil:
virus

I think the relationship between Real and On2 has been dissolved for some time now. Real licensed On2's VP4 & 5 codec gaining certain exclusive rights of use. This is just my conspiracy theory but I think Real kept On2's hands tied with this contract and had no intent to use the VP codecs while they actively developed Real Player 9 with intent to market it to companies that On2 would have gone after had they not given Real exclusive rights. The following is a long read from On2 that gives a little bit of detail.:

In July 2001 the Company entered into a Software Development and License
Agreement with Real Networks, Inc. Under terms of the agreement, we agreed to
develop a software plug-in to RealPlayer that would allow consumers to play
files encoded in our VP4 and VP5 compression format using the RealPlayer. In
conjunction with the development of the codec software, we also agreed to
develop a software plug-in to the RealSystem Server that would enable
broadcasters to stream VP4 and VP5 encoded files and a software plug-in to the
RealProducer that would enable users of the RealProducer to encode content using
VP4 and VP5. In order for us to develop the plug-ins described in the
RealNetworks agreement, RealNetworks was required to provide us with certain
development software as well as fulfill certain other obligations. RealNetworks
failed to deliver such software and perform such other obligations. After
honoring the contract from its inception and attempting to resolve the situation
with RealNetworks for over 9 months through business discussions, in May 2002 we
notified RealNetworks that we were terminating the agreement. RealNetworks
responded and disputed our right to terminate the agreement and further claimed
that we were in breach of the agreement. We responded by reiterating our
positions. We have not had any contacts or discussions with RealNetworks since
delivering this response. As a result, we are not generating any revenues from
the sale of RealNetworks related products.

The Company believes that our May 2002 termination of the RealNetworks
agreement was effective. However, because the arrangement with RealNetworks was
exclusive in certain respects, should it hereafter be determined that such
termination was not effective, we could be restricted from supporting other
software platforms, including certain components of our own software platforms
and, although we do not believe that it would be the case, we might be found to
have breached the agreement with RealNetworks. Whether we might have liability
to RealNetworks depends on a variety of factors, including whether RealNetworks
met its obligations to us, whether it caused any breach that we might have
committed and whether it otherwise has liability to us in connection with the
agreement.

[virus]

Originally posted by the Mad Duke
I think the relationship between Real and On2 has been dissolved for some time now.
so, just a webmaster's fault? a logo that should have been removed long ago is still there? that's disappointing... I hoped for some more anti-M$ stuff ;)

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by virus
so, just a webmaster's fault? a logo that should have been removed long ago is still there? that's disappointing... I hoped for some more anti-M$ stuff ;)

I think both companies are anti M$FT but just not together.:D

Okay On2, release that VP7!

[Atamido]

Originally posted by IgorC
Dont forget. Vp 6.2 is the best video codec... Ever tried to play VP6 video on anything other than a Windows system? Any codec that you want to call the 'best' should probably have at least a little cross platform compatibly.

[pernas]

Originally posted by Pamel
Ever tried to play VP6 video on anything other than a Windows system? Any codec that you want to call the 'best' should probably have at least a little cross platform compatibly.
VP6 works well with MPlayer on other platforms than M$ :D

[Sirber]

Any specs for VP7? Please, please! no 50% better than VP6 BS :devil: Thanks :D

Note: BS means BBQ Sauce ;)

[Sharktooth]

Im really interested in VP7 too.
IMHO VP7 will be on par if noth slightly better than current h.264 implementations.

[IgorC]

you can find some interesting information in the offcila site about VP7. Have a look :

Program Will Be Closed for Launch of VP7 NEW YORK - PRNewswire-FirstCall - Dec. 22
NEW YORK, Dec. 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- On2 Technologies, Inc., The Duck Corporation , today announced that the number of downloads of its TrueMotion VP6 Personal Use codec has exceeded 550,000. The program will be closed to new licensees today in anticipation of the launch of the TrueMotion VP7 codec.

The company said that the successful download program would be critical to the marketing of VP7 and On2's new encoding tools. On2 encoding tools will target users of the company's TrueCast Server and will also include products for several of its decoder distribution products. The company believes that these products will be launched over the course of 2005.

"The use of VP6 and the information we have received about customer behavior should pave the way for a successful launch of VP7 and the launches of encoders for several of our large distribution partners that allow On2 to market the encoder," said Douglas A. McIntyre, On2 Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer. "Every VP7 license will be a paid license, including a nominal charge for the VP7 personal use encoder. We believe the market will view VP7 as the leading codec in the world and it will command a premium price."

About On2 Technologies, The Duck Corporation

On2 Technologies is a leading technology firm at the forefront of video compression. The company revolutionized digital media delivery with the creation of its advanced full-motion, full-screen, TrueMotion(R) VP4/VP5/VP6 compression and streaming technologies. On2's TrueMotion codecs are used extensively in the video-on-demand, videoconferencing, Internet media, surveillance, and store-and-play markets. They operate with On2's own TrueCast Server and Player software, as well as third-party player and server products. On2's software is used by such leading companies as Sony, NTT, AOL, BBC, ABC News, Nullsoft, SeaChange International, China Netcom, NHK, and Nanwang Multimedia. The VP6 decoder has an installation base of millions through its inclusion in AOL 9 Media Player, Winamp 5, Viewpoint Media Player, and others. On2 licenses its software for use in set-top boxes, consumer electronics devices and wireless applications and offers high-level video encoding, customized technical support, and consulting/integration services. Located in New York City, the company has an office in Clifton Park, NY, and operations in Cambridge, UK. To contact On2 write to sales@on2.com or visit http://www.on2.com/.

On2 Technologies, Inc.

Web site: http://www.on2.com/

[Sharktooth]

Nominal charge for the VP7 personal use encoder?
Uhm... how much it is this "charge"? (BTW i dont think it's a good idea...)

[slavickas]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
Nominal charge for the VP7 personal use encoder?
Uhm... how much it is this "charge"? (BTW i dont think it's a good idea...)

yeah :(,although it shouldn't be (very) pricy, atm vp6 costs 99$ for commercial use for personal it should be way lower

[bond]

i wonder if vp7 will be backwards compliant?

[LordRPI]

Those guys in Clifton Park are insaaaaane :)

[DeathTheSheep]

So, this was just, what? 3 or 4 days ago, right? Additionally, On2 has removed the capablility of free VP6 consumer download.

According to the above documents, therefore, this is all in order to kick off their VP7 codec, but this for a "nominal fee."

How soon, then, do you think they will release the new codec? Or have I simply muddled the aforementioned facts?

Cheers, baa

[BoNz1]

Originally posted by pernas
VP6 works well with MPlayer on other platforms than M$ :D

Using a binary codec from windows does not count as being cross platform IMO.

[pieter1976]

This is what I red on the on2's website

On2 will also unveil its new TrueMotion VP7 codec to the U.S. market at CES. TrueMotion VP7 performs up to 35% better than VP6 at the same datarates and offers a very substantial improvement over the performance of H.264, Windows Media, Real 10, and DivX. In the weeks following CES, On2 will make content encoded in TrueMotion VP7 available on its web site.

I can't wait

[Sirber]

cool! I'd like some juicy specs :D

[Sharktooth]

Well, i wish on2 at least will release a Decoder-only package for free.
VP7 is a really promising codec...

[the Mad Duke]

Originally posted by Sirber
cool! I'd like some juicy specs :D

"On2 Releases VP7 Preview'

www.on2.com

[bond]

read more here (http://www.on2.com/vp7.php3)

they provide self encoded samples and a player able to decode them (anyone knowing if its dshow based?)
also of course the marketing claims, like every codec developer loves to spread: 50% better than vp6, and of course better than existing other codecs...

as vp6 wasnt available for free anymore i even more doubt that vp7 will be :(

[Sharktooth]

Yeah... but those samples are impressive...

[pernas]

Too bad i'm at work with no access to port 554..:(

How do they look compared to older (TC) VP6 samples @ 300/500kbps ?

[Sharktooth]

... better ... :D
They look really great.

[pernas]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
... better ... :D
They look really great.
Great !! ;) (...screenshots...anyone?)

[bond]

here a list of the additions made since vp6:

- 4x4 dct transform
- second order coding of DC information
- new “wide pass band” motion filter
- adaptive loop and new post-processing filters
- Improved two-pass rate targeting and datarate control
- Two-pass spatial resampling
- Light Level Change Adaptation
- Block Adaptive quantization and filtering
- context modeling in the entropy encoder

[Irwin]

Originally posted by pernas
Too bad i'm at work with no access to port 554..:(

How do they look compared to older (TC) VP6 samples @ 300/500kbps ?

I too.
I wrote to support on2 and now http download available.

BTW fourcc is ONYX