On2 VP7

[SpaceV]

Sagi, you got an encoder?

Doom9 what means not quite finished yet?
Can you be more precise please, when do you think it will be done?

Or are you under a NDA?

Also whats happening in China? EVD just got reaffirmed by the Gov as standard, is that still VP6?

Also whats going on with XM sat radio using VP6/7??

[CruNcher]

SpaceV yes some testers allready have it just be patient

[Sagittaire]

very very little test with VP7:

source: HPII 720*576 MPEG2 MP@ML
pre-process: complete YV12 pre-process for all codec
post-process: PP4 for XviD, PP2 for VP7 and No PP for H264 in YV12

avs script for encoding:
VDM in fast compress mod (YV12)
CLI main profil for Nero H264 (YV12)


source=Mpeg2Source("G:\Mes dossiers\B.A\Harry Potter\azerty.d2v")
source=Trim(source,70,3145)
source=Crop(source,0,76,-0,-76)
source=LanczosResize(source,720,304)
Return(source)



avs script for PSNR test (YUY2):


# --> Video Opening <--

source=Mpeg2Source("G:\Mes dossiers\B.A\Harry Potter\azerty.d2v")
source=Trim(source,70,3145)
source=Crop(source,0,76,-0,-76)
source=LanczosResize(source,720,304)
source=ConvertToYUY2(source)

video=DirectShowSource("G:\Mes dossiers\B.A\Harry Potter\VP7.avi",fps=25)
video=ConvertToYUY2(video)

# --> PSNR analysis <--
Compare(video,source,"","PSNR-VP7.txt")



PSNR test

XviD for reference in q8
H264, Ultra high, VHQ4, VHQ bvop, H263, QPel, GMC, trelli, bframe 2/1.50/0.00

Minimum Average Maximum
Mean Absolute Deviation: 0.0156 1.7862 3.1250
Mean Deviation: -0.0380 +0.8608 +1.6260
PSNR: 35.0292 40.2419 65.2736
Overall PSNR: 39.7265



One2Tech VP7:
with best setting ... ;-)

Minimum Average Maximum
Mean Absolute Deviation: 0.0007 1.3482 2.6535
Mean Deviation: -0.2085 +0.0557 +0.2913
PSNR: 36.3714 42.5899 79.4781
Overall PSNR: 41.4765



Nero H264 :
with best setting ... ;-)

Minimum Average Maximum
Mean Absolute Deviation: 0.0061 1.3608 3.0858
Mean Deviation: -0.4652 +0.1647 +0.7735
PSNR: 34.5288 42.5690 69.2643
Overall PSNR: 41.4328



http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/VP7.JPG
blue: VP7
red: H264
green: XviD


little visual test (250frames) with FFVI reencoding sample

Source -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/Source-FFV1.avi)
VP7 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/VP7-FFV1.avi)
H264 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264-FFV1.avi)
XviD -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/XviD-FFV1.avi)


[French On]
le MPEG4 ASP est aux fraises ... lol
[/French Off]

[Sirber]

PP2 for VP6? A line for VP7...

Is your test about VP6 or VP7?

[Leo 69]

I'd better stick to X264. ;) As far as I can see,it is not that worse than VP7 and it's free-of-charge.Besides it is better than current Nero encoder.

What about visual quality of the VP7 encodes, Sagittaire ?

[Sagittaire]

Originally posted by Leo 69
What about visual quality of the VP7 encodes, Sagittaire ?

Nero h264 (with best setting) at this time is very better than x264 (with best setting) thus for PSNR test VP7 is very better than x264 ...

Very little sample actually in upload (250 frames in FFV1 lossless reencoding for source and each codec) for visual test. IMO H264 is visually very little better (more constant quality) than VP7 for this trailer ... perhabs too low variability setting (70%) for VP7

[Sagittaire]

little visual test (250frames) with FFVI reencoding sample

Source -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/Source-FFV1.avi)
VP7 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/VP7-FFV1.avi)
H264 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264-FFV1.avi)
XviD -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/XviD-FFV1.avi)

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by SpaceV
Sagi, you got an encoder?

Doom9 what means not quite finished yet?
Can you be more precise please, when do you think it will be done?

Or are you under a NDA?

Also whats happening in China? EVD just got reaffirmed by the Gov as standard, is that still VP6?

Also whats going on with XM sat radio using VP6/7??

Do you mean China EVD is using VP6?

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sagittaire
little visual test (250frames) with FFVI reencoding sample

Source -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/Source-FFV1.avi)
VP7 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/VP7-FFV1.avi)
H264 -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264-FFV1.avi)
XviD -> FFV1 (http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/XviD-FFV1.avi)
What's the final bitrate for each file?

[Sagittaire]

bitrate isn't important ... but I use for reference XviD with best setting for PSNR in q8 and 450 Kbps:

- XviD: 6882 Ko
- VP7 : 6948 Ko (+1%)
- H264 Nero : 6811 Ko (-1%)

In fact VP7 is very better than VP6 for anime source ... test in progress

[bond]

Sagittaire, you always talk about "h264". i assume you know that h.264 is a coding standard and not a codec, so which codec do you use when talking about h264?

[Sagittaire]

Originally posted by bond
Sagittaire, you always talk about "h264". i assume you know that h.264 is a coding standard and not a codec, so which codec do you use when talking about h264?

... and it's true

edit: Nero H264

but x264 is too a very good H264 version too ... :D
(result with ateme decoder)


Minimum Average Maximum
Mean Absolute Deviation: 0.0058 1.3949 3.0194
Mean Deviation: -0.6451 +0.1716 +1.1371
PSNR: 34.5454 42.3492 68.5553
Overall PSNR: 41.2319


Only 0.25 dB less than Nero H264 main profil with best setting ...

[SpaceV]

yes the last info I got is that VP5/6 is the codec of choice for
the chinese EVD standard. But this info is a year old, meanwhile there was the arbitration because ON2 did not get any money from E-World.

So I am not sure what is going on but since I have not heard that the EVD standard was modified I assume that it is still VP5/6.

Maybe the ON2 people on this board can comment on the situation.

[Sirber]

wasn't the "chinese EVD standard" a marketing joke?

[azsd]

EVD in china = divx player in world....
Now some DVDs with standard MPEG-2 struction will attached an encoded vp6 files in disk witch can both play in EVD players and classic DVD players.
is seems an fake...

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sirber
wasn't the "chinese EVD standard" a marketing joke?
:o Indeed, I'm a Chinese, maybe it is not so properly to critisize this but I really feel someone are too near-sight, always try to make a standard without real core technologies and fail many many times. That already hurts many people's heart like me:angry:.

[Sirber]

MPEG2 and VP6? I don't see the point. Does anyone have EVD specs?

[edit]

http://www.lsilogic.com/technologies/industry_standards/enhanced_versatile_disc_evd.html

Seems MPEG2 only...

[tmpy222]

As it was said in the article, they don't like to be controlled by a cartel of so called "patent" holders. So they make their own standard like they did with SVCD. The licenses they pay on EVD is one fifth of what they pay on DVD. Last I read, they are paying like $20 license on a $29 DVD player... I call that highway robbery for licensing.
What do you mean there is no "core" technology? Are you saying modern vp6 codec isn't "core" enough to compete with outdated mpeg2? I guess vp7 would have been better but it just came out. They are also HDTV compatible, I read. I was thinking they didn't choose WMV9 because nobody wants to be controlled by Microsoft either. :)
Anyway, I think what they are doing is a "long term" solution to the monopoly of patent holders cartel. It's cheaper to pay a single proprietary company than to 18 proprietary companies like MPEG LA, 3C, 6C...

The more choices, the better for the consumers like us. :)

[Sirber]

I'm saying it's not said anywhere it's using VP6. It sais it's using MPEG2.

[damrod]

i don't know but if they release dvd with both mpeg2 and vp6 encoding
it can be a good idea ....you can play the vp6 in 720p or 1024p
or choose for ordinary people the mpeg2 stream :)

[Sirber]

LSI Logic is providing E-world with HD encoding and decoding technologies based on the popular DoMiNo™ architecture. EVD is the first HD format created by using MPEG-2-based technology and a standard optical red laser. To deliver the industry's best quality HD and SD images, the DoMiNo architecture uses LSI Logic's award-winning PerfectView® MPEG-2 encoding algorithm.;)

[the Mad Duke]

The 1st generation EVD players used the LSI chip with MPEG2 compression. The next generation EVD players are now what are subject to speculation. A company called Analog Devices has also designed a chip for EVD. It's called the Blackfin and it has the On2 VP6 codec ported to it.
The arbitration between E-world and On2 should be over shortly. Anybody that wants to know what codec is being used in the next generation EVD players should find out soon.

[hdonly]

Any more VP7 test results?

Sounds like VP7 may exceed Ateme/Nero H.264?

[Sirber]

From my tests, I have blocking on my anime test clip at 536kbps. Issue has been reported.

[huang_ch]

Oh, I don't want to get this VP7 topic into a EVD topic. :o
Back to VP7, Siber, why you choose 5xxKbps to test? I now use 500Kbps with RV10/RA10 for Animes, and when I first saw VP7, it just claims to get about XX% improvement than existing codec, so I hope to get Animes encoded to below 400Kbps or even 300Kbps with VP7. :D Would that be a dream? :D

[Sirber]

536kbps was to be able to add a 64kbps HE-AAC audio stresm to have 600kbps :p

Currently, quality-wise with settigns I think it's best (IMHHO):

RV10 - Ateme > VP6 > VP7 > x264

RV10: 2-pass VBR, EHQ Extreme, Streaming RC
Ateme: long time ago... in the beta stage :rolleyes:
VP6: 2-pass VBR, Spacial resampling, automatic PP
VP7: same as VP6, no resampling (not avalible yet), unknown decoder settings
x264: 2-pass VBR, 8 ref, 3 bf

But, IMO now, 536 is not enough anymore. Too much used to CQ65 :o

[huang_ch]

Siber, you mean x264 is better than VP7 currently?

[Sirber]

opposite

vp7 > x264

but with the latest build (149), they are more equivallent :)

[DeathTheSheep]

Well, I'm a fan of extremely low bitrates. I like anime too, and I always encode it to 320*240 resolution. Remember my old thread about B-frames? You get the picture. ;)

So, this codec, having been claimed to perform exceptionally at low bitrates*, with animated content*, and at lower resolution*, is an absolutely perfect codec for me to experiment with.

So whom do I contact? On2Tech? On2 Customer Support? I don't want to send an email the wrong way, so I just came to ask from those of you who've obtained a beta/alpha trial. Thanks.


[edit]PS:
If you want, I could post some actual PSNR data, screenshots, and visual comments about each codec at different bitrates/res. I'd also say a bit about the pros and cons of each, thier speeds, their stability, their playback efficiency, etc. (if you'd like), my beloved Doom9 kindred. Cheers to us all.

DTS

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sirber
opposite

vp7 > x264

but with the latest build (149), they are more equivallent :)
But... in your previous post, you mentioned that Real>VP6>VP7... why? I think/guess/expect that VP7 should be much better than VP6/Real...:confused:

[Sirber]

My test clip is very difficult. I had issues with VP7 on it that affected quality. These issues has been sent to on2. VP7 lack "spacial resampling" in VBR mode, which has been used in VP6. I had also some blocking due to the new sharpen mode. I need to test it more to find the best settings for my clip.

[Sagittaire]

VP7 uses a sharpness slider control with a range of 0 to 7, as opposed to the 0 to 10 range in VP6. The best PSNR results are usually achieved with this value set to 0. Using the slider at higher values will provide sharper images but may also result in a few more artifacts (blocking/ringing artifacts).

On most clips, setting strPostProcessingLevel to 2 provides the best PSNR results, but if you are testing an extremely low datarate or animated clips you will find that 4 provides more visually appealing results.


For anime source:
Sharpeness = 0
Use PP4 for strPostProcessingLevel in reg

[Sirber]

Cool! Thanks. But with sharpenss at 0, the iamge get's a little too blur, so I will try 1 or 2.

[Sagittaire]

@ One2tech
your mail box is full ...

[Capirossi]

where I find vp7? :cool:

[Sharktooth]

Actually it's in beta testing stage, so you won't find it.

[pieter1976]

what futher improvements can we expect on vp7 over the beta version.
what will be the name vp7.1?

[SpaceV]

what I would like to know, are the On2 guys responsive
to your test results, do they agree, do you get updated versions
of VP7 ?
do you see results and improvements, is there progress?

please let us know at least that much.

I am very interested in VP7.

Thanks!

[Sharktooth]

Originally posted by pieter1976
what futher improvements can we expect on vp7 over the beta version.
what will be the name vp7.1?
??? Beta means it's still not released. So it will be VP7.

[Sirber]

Currently at VP7 beta 3. On2 guys are very responsive and helpfull. I did not test beta 3 yet, I'm encoding an anime serie :D. It should be over at noon. This build is supposed to work with avs2avi, so it will work via RealAnime. I will test beta 3 as soon as I get back from work.

[SpaceV]

Thanks for the feedback.
Did you see progress, quality/speed improvements over the
previous betas?

Hope we see the final VP7 soon.

[Sirber]

Yes. I had square problem, they are mostly gone. I also had a "too much keyframes per second", which has been fixed too. Good thing: first pass is too fast :D. I'll post more later.

[the Mad Duke]

VP7 has been released.

[eqbal]

Originally posted by the Mad Duke
VP7 has been released. ]

download link?

[Doom9]

it's payware now.. $19.99 for the codec, $29.99 for the codec and encoding app. You can buy it at www.on2.com

[zulu]

http://www.on2.com/duckutils/duck_license.php3?class=vp7

[Palikrovol]

It has any DirectShow decoder or it has only a VFW decoder?

[Sharktooth]

No free DS decoder available :( Why?

[Sirber]

DShow decoder and VFW encoder.

[the Mad Duke]

"The new codec software is available as a Video for Windows (VFW) plugin or integrated with the On2CompI Encoder application.

On2 is offering 10-day trial downloads for both encoding products so customers can test the software before deciding to purchase."