On2 VP7

[eqbal]

VP7 , it's too slow for me.
AND what's the best setting for encode movies (with 2hr length) in VP7

[Sirber]

In my case VP7 is faster than VP6 :confused:

[eqbal]

Originally posted by Sirber
In my case VP7 is faster than VP6 :confused:

can you tell me your VP7setting for movie?

[IgorC]

VP7 1-st pass is very fast, but second is very slow. Why sharpness 0 is better (not like VP6.4 5-10)?

[Sirber]

Originally posted by eqbal
can you tell me your VP7setting for movie? I only compress animeVP7 1-st pass is very fast, but second is slow. Why sharpness 0 is better (not like VP6.4 5-10)?In my tests, 0 is too blusy and 5 is squary, so I'm testing at 2.

[eqbal]

setting for:
Mode?
Bitrate?
Max frames Btw Keys?
Sharpness?
Adjust Quantizer?
???????????????????

[IgorC]

Originally posted by eqbal
setting for:
Mode?
Bitrate?
Max frames Btw Keys?
Sharpness?
Adjust Quantizer?
???????????????????
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90784 .

[SpaceV]

Hi All,

I downloaded VP7 and did a test with DVDx 2.3 (sourceforge.net).

I set it to 750 kbits and ajusted the quantizer min/max to 2/30.
I go for 1 pass best quality.

I started the encode and it tells me a projected filesize of 4.8 GIGA byte! So I let it encode a couple of minutes from the movie
and the output size is 190 MB !

After I stopped the encoding I went back to my codec settings and just changed VP7 with VP6.2 and used the same settings and the projected output size is around 600MB as compared to 4.8 GB.

What is wrong with VP7 or what am I doing wrong.

Anyone know what is going on.

Help please.

[SpaceV]

I am using the 10 day Trial version and when the
trail box comes up with the buttons "Buy", "Install License" and "Close", I hit the close button.

[Sagittaire]

quantisation interval for VPX is not the same than MPEG4 ASP (XviD or DivX) : don't touche RC defaut setting. If you want better target bitrate use higher undershoot and don't forget that VPX use kbit/s and not kbps (1000 kbit/s = 1024 Kbps)

[virus]

Originally posted by Sagittaire
quantisation interval for VPX is not the same than MPEG4 ASP (XviD or DivX) : don't touche RC defaut setting. If you want better target bitrate use higher undershoot and don't forget that VPX use kbit/s and not kbps (1000 kbit/s = 1024 Kbps)
Wrong. Only VP6 uses the monstrosity 1 Kbps = 1024 bit/s. Instead VP7 (finally!) uses 1 kbit/s = 1000 bit/s, like all other decent codecs on the face of the planet.

As for RC precision, VP7 sould be clearly better than VP6 (with default settings), though I don't know if On2 has already completely solved the issue that makes the RC sometimes drift (and oversize) at high rates. If this problem doesn't occour, VP7 will usually hit the target very well even on short clips.

As for Sharpness, I recommend 3-4 for mid bitrates, and 5-6 for high bitrates (natural material). Keep in mind that Sharpness in VP7 is dealt with in a very different way than VP62, so they don't really compare.

[SpaceV]

1 minute of VP7 has 70 megabytes, where 1 minute of
VP6.2 with identical settings has about 7.5 megabytes.

Sagi, you are tryong to say that the quantizer and the 24 bit difference in the bitrate make that difference? Its about times 10x
larger. I think my VP7 size is as big or bigger than my original MPEG2.

There is something completely wrong here.

Did anyone try the free download VP7 codec version?

[On2Tech]

I would like to ask those of you who are sending private messages to my inbox to try and send anything related to vp7 problems and concerns (not rants or raves) to codec_support@on2.com

As I do not have the time to always check my inbox to see if it is overflowing or full, this would be a faster way for me to get back to you guys.

I only ask that you please keep this technical and civil.

Thanks

on2tech.

[netchris]

I am sorry i have to report a negative opinion, but so far i am kinda disappointed. First pass is very fast , thats good, but second pass is extremely slow (iirc slower than vp6, surely slower than nero avc). Made some tests with anime eps, 500kbps the target bitrate and the results are blocky in many parts, with ringing evident in many places. Compared to a nero-avc encode nero seems almost perfect, while vp7 has obvious flaws. I bet by tweaking i can get a bit better picture, but imo it cant compete with avc codecs. At least not now, when it matures it might be alot better....

[Sirber]

In my AMD64 3000+, VP7 is faster than VP6 at 2-pass VBR, 536kbps. :confused:

[netchris]

I am not in a position to make any claims about the speed compared to vp6,cause im too lazy to reinstall vp6 :rolleyes: My proc. is athlon xp 2800, the codec might do heavy use of sse2 which my proc doesnt have, so that could be the culprit (if i am correct about being slower than vp6).
Made some tests with video clips, and the codec is very good, it surely performed better with real people video than it did with anime content. Still i find h264 (nero to be precise, as x264 is not stable enough yet) to be better.

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sirber
In my AMD64 3000+, VP7 is faster than VP6 at 2-pass VBR, 536kbps. :confused:
AMD64.... How long did it take you to encode a 20-25min Anime with VP7?

[Sirber]

I only encoded my little test clip so far. First pass is at least 4 times faster than RV10 EHQ50. Second pass is around 8FPS IIRC.

[SpaceV]

ok I used VP7 with VirtualDubMod
and it seems to work although my FPS is around 2-3
on my AMD64 @2.45GHz

Sooo why does VP6.2 and all other codecs... Xvid, x264 etc...
work with DVDx2.3 but VP7 does not?

Using DVDx, the output size is about 4 times the requested datarate
with quantizers set to 4/56.
VP7=12MB for 1 minute, VP6.2 same settings 3 MB
(it was a very easy minute with lots of black)

With VdubMod the datarate is ok with both VP versions.

Any idea?
Would be great if someone could reproduce the same thing.
As I said DVDx is open source from sourceforge.net

[dragongodz]

Using DVDx, the output size is about 4 times the requested datarate
not here. just did a quick test on a 1 minute clip and all was fine using DVDx 2.3.

can you tell me what settings in DVDx you used ? export(RGB24 or YUY2), resolution etc ?

[EDIT]
i know what you mean about the speed. 6.1(advanced profile) was around 27.5fps while 7.0 was around 6.6fps on my Athlon XP 2400+. BIG difference in speed.

[Manao]

Did anybody get the same issue as i did, with the YUV to RGB vfw converter installed with on2comp ? I wasn't able anymore to use YV12 as input through virtual dub for x264. I had to deinstall on2comp.

[Sharktooth]

Yes! same issue here! Just change form the on2 yv12 handler to xvid or divx in the registry. No need to uninstall on2compi.

[C0mPr355]

space you didnt happen to have PCM audio compressing into your vid stream did you ?

That would account for a much higher file size.

[WorBry]

After all of the anticipation I'd have to say that I'm rather dissappointed.

Ran a few comparisons with VP6.2 using several Pal Type II test clips as source and my standard AVS script:

AVISource
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)
ColorYUV(off_y=-16,gain_y=16) - for luma corection with Sony DV codec
KernelDeint(order=0,sharp=true)
LanczosResize(720,544)
Undot

VDubMod:
Fast Recompress
Audio MP3 CBR 128

Codec configuration:

Both: 2000kbps, 2-pass VBR (best quality), progressive, no denoise, AutoKF, maxKF 9999, no resampling. Other settings at default except for:
VP6.2 - sharp 7, quantizers min 2 (max default 40)
VP7 - sharp 5 (quantizers default min 0, max 56)

Observations:

1. VP7 2nd-pass painfully slow
2. Average PSNR - no significant differences between VP6.2 and VP7
3. No improvement after changing VP7 sharpness to 0 (as recommended)
3. CPU demand on playback with TrueCast Player and MediaPlayerClassic (PC: AMD XP2800, 1GB DDR RAM): the VP7 encodes drew 95-100% usage, more than twice that of VP6.2(40-50%)
4. Couldnt see any decoder configuration option for VP7. Is it hidden somewhere?

Cant see anything that would cause me to reach for my credit card as yet

[Sharktooth]

VP7 has been optimized for LOW bitrates... so a 2000kbps compare is obviously misleading...

[Sirber]

2mbps for HDTV is low bitrate :p

[Sharktooth]

LanczosResize(720,544)

:p

[Sirber]

http://www.gosmiley.com/frowning/weinender_smili.gif

[edit]
4. Couldnt see any decoder configuration option for VP7. Is it hidden somewhere?Registry! :D

[WorBry]

I prefer (visually) 720x544 to 720x528 for conversion from 720x576 DV at full res.

Maybe VP7 is optimized for low-bitrate, but I'd been getting excellent PSNR results with VP6.2 at around 2000kbps, in fact comparable to XviD at 2800kbps. However, on my PC at least, XviD (and DivX) have a lighter CPU demand (25%) than VP6.2 and I was hoping that VP7 would perform better in this respect.

[Sharktooth]

That's why PP is activated in both VP6.2 and VP7.
Try disabling PP and see VP6 fly... :)

[JnZ]

Hi, guys.

I've just test VP7, but it's really VERY SLOW.
I test 1000 frames from Winnetou 3 (good old film :cool: )
Settings:
LanczosResize(672,288)
Biterate 908 kbits (This biterate is for full one CD)

I also test x264 r.159 and XviD 1.0.3.
Every codec with maximum quality settings.

Encoding speeds on my configuration:

Codec First Second
------------------
VP7 ~34fps ~1-2fps
x264 ~16fps ~13fps
XviD ~40fps ~11fps


VP7 is rrrreealllyyy slowwwww brrrrrr.
On my visual comparsions results are: x264>VP7>XviD.

EDIT: I must correct FPS numbers, because my proc is overclocked at NOW :D

[Leo 69]

@ JnZ


Where have you taken x264 rev.159 ? http://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[JnZ]

Originally posted by Leo 69
Where have you taken x264 rev.159 ?
Just downloaded from http://x264.nl/ :cool:

[SeeMoreDigital]

As Sharktooth mentioned... Where's the DSdec filter?


Cheers

[Sharktooth]

Originally posted by Leo 69
@ JnZ


Where have you taken x264 rev.159 ? http://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Rev 159 has been just built. Tomorrow i will compile CPU optimized versions.

[Leo 69]

Just tested VP7 @ 500 kbps @ 720x320 short clip and noticed dissapointing mosquito noise. I haven't seen anything like this since I've started using H.264... This reminded me of my Xvid times :rolleyes: Yes, certainly VP7 is MUCH better than Xvid, but it isn't such a serious competitor to current Nero's H.264 realization in Recode, that's for sure.

[Sirber]

VP6 codec has much more muskito noise than VP7. Remember that VP codecs don't use bframes :)

[hdonly]

http://on2.com/duckutils/duck_license.php3?class=player

Fixes CPU complexity problem. Clips look better too!

[Leo 69]

Originally posted by Sirber
Remember that VP codecs don't use bframes :)

Dirty shame :D

[eqbal]

x264 is faster and have better quality (vs VP7)

[Yong]

I tried, it's sloooooow! 4646 frames need 46 min. to complete the encoding process!
(on P4 2.4GHz machine, but working on backgraound, encoding thread priority is "normal")
Decoding also slow, eat more CPU power than h264 if play wiht Media player classic, even the audio playback will skip or pause...
but no problem with Mplayer.
look good at 256kbps:p
I try to compare it with x264 @ 256kbps, may be x264 has potential to better than VP7...:cool:

EDIT: i found some encoding option were disabled(grayed-out),
trialware restriction?

[Sirber]

not implemented yet :)

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by Leo 69
Just tested VP7 @ 500 kbps @ 720x320 short clip and noticed dissapointing mosquito noise. I haven't seen anything like this since I've started using H.264... This reminded me of my Xvid times :rolleyes: Yes, certainly VP7 is MUCH better than Xvid, but it isn't such a serious competitor to current Nero's H.264 realization in Recode, that's for sure.

Our tests show that we are either equal to or better than Nero's codec in almost all situations. If you find a clip upon which VP7 is not performing as well as Nero or some other codec we'd love to get your help in resolving the issue.

Please write us at codec_support@on2.com. If you are able and willing to get us your source, coding parameters we'll attack it with a vengeance.

Even if you don't. Thanks for trying our codec. We understand testing these things take time, and appreciate that you have taken the time to download and try our codec out. Even negative comments help us make the codec better ( sometimes especially)...

We've found a number of issues and the codec is getting better and better because of the outstanding help we've gotten from people who are regular posters on this board. If you are dissappointed today, I suggest you might not be with our next release. As such, we are actively responding to these issues and watching these forums.

[On2Tech]

Encoding Speed

Our encoder speed is slower than we'd like. We've been working hard to make it run faster and will continue to do so. I think some of the beta testers can probably attest that its a lot faster than the earlier versions. We're working on this issue.

Problems running from certain apps

We have also had people report to us that the codec doesn't work in a couple of apps ( though it seems to work in vdbub). We are trying hard to resolve this issue and hope to have a fix up early this week.

Encodes on P3's, Celerons, Athlons worse Than P4's

We've also discovered and are working on currently a problem with encoding on different cpu's. On some processors the encoder is currently producing better results than others. ( We think there is a bug in either our sse optimized code or our mmx code) . It seems that our P4 routinely beat encodes using p3 Celerons, and athlon machines.

Decode Speed

We've made significant improvements to the decoding speed of our codec. ( You should be able to see some of these improvements by playing video through our truecast player). The recent release of the vfw codec did not have these improvements. The next version will. The improvements included roughly a 20% overall improvement in decode, and processor adaptive postprocessing ( we do the best post processing we can do based on the time spend decoding the frame)..

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by netchris
I am sorry i have to report a negative opinion, but so far i am kinda disappointed. First pass is very fast , thats good, but second pass is extremely slow (iirc slower than vp6, surely slower than nero avc). Made some tests with anime eps, 500kbps the target bitrate and the results are blocky in many parts, with ringing evident in many places. Compared to a nero-avc encode nero seems almost perfect, while vp7 has obvious flaws. I bet by tweaking i can get a bit better picture, but imo it cant compete with avc codecs. At least not now, when it matures it might be alot better....

Our tests on Anime have shown the exact opposite. Ie we look less blocky than Nero-AVC. Can you please let us know what material you have, what machine you've used, and with what parameters you have encoded it?

[eqbal]

what's your parameters that use to encode movie with better result than nero?
i like to know it.:p

[Leo 69]

@ On2Tech

Please post parameters at which VP7 perfoms at its best in low-bitrate
conditions (400-900 kbps) and in DVD-resolution (720x320). I'll see what I can get up to :)

Cheers

[virus]

Originally posted by On2Tech
Our encoder speed is slower than we'd like. We've been working hard to make it run faster and will continue to do so. I think some of the beta testers can probably attest that its a lot faster than the earlier versions.
yeah, the first beta was much slower than the current trial version. But the problem in VP7 is not that the codec is "slow". The problem is that the GUI currently only offers a couple of presets, and they're both oriented to high quality (and thus most of the time-consuming options are enabled).

It's clear to me that the problem is that VP7 doesn't currently offer to the user the ability to turn off some flags and get higher speeds (at the expense of quality of course, like it happens with all codecs). The solution imho is not to reduce the complexity of Best and Good modes (unless you can do it through pure code optimization, i.e. without any quality loss - that kind of speedup is always welcome :)), but the adoption of a proper speed/quality slider with 4 or 5 presets that allows the usual tradeoff between encoding times and output quality.

There has been a lot of talk here about the design of a "n00b-friendly" GUI for XviD some time ago. Several people outlined how the most simple design was the adoption of such a slider, with the codec choosing appropriate parameters internally for each preset. This is the way to go.

BTW for those who think that VP7 is "painfully slow", I can reveal that time ago On2Tech talked about an internal version capable of encoding D1 in realtime. So it's really just a matter of missing speed scalability in the user interface, *not* of On2's devs being unable of writing a codec with decent speed ;)

cheers :)
virus

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
As Sharktooth mentioned... Where's the DSdec filter?
Cheers

Its coming ( both encode and decode ). Its on our list of things to do. First we're trying to handle some of these other issues.

[AlexeyS]

1. On2's main problem is poor marketing. I think VP7 is the best (little better than H.264 for me), but there is no Hardware Players with VP6/VP7 support...

Look at DivX and WMA9 - these codecs really blurry and with blocking, but they're popular because DivX Network and Microsoft use strong marketing.

2. Do you plan support of 2 CPU systems and 64 bit support?

3. Decoding speed is also problem for me. It's little slower than H.264, and much slower than VP6... I even can't play 1280x720p video without lags on my Athlon FX-55 CPU.