On2 VP7

[Sirber]

Download to what? VP7 codec?

[Irwin]

sample video files !

[Sirber]

From the samples I've seen, I wanna try it T_T. If it's so great on anime at that bitrate, I absolutly need to try it :D

[Sagittaire]

From OneTech:

http://www.on2.com/vp7/Salmon.gif

OneTech don't use the best seeting for Nero H264 : in fact H264 Nero with best setting is always better than VP6. VP7 seem really better than VP6 too ... perhabs little better than H264 Nero but perhabs not !!?

In fact VP7 and Nero H264 are certainely comparable codec ... by far better than other codec (MPEG4 ASP, WMV9, RV10 ...)

[IgorC]

i haven´t any problem to download samples
http://www.on2.com/vp7/http/harry_vp7_400.avi

[Sirber]

How do you play this avi?

[IgorC]

Originally posted by Sirber
How do you play this avi?

i couldn´t . now i´m downloading VP7 player.

[Sirber]

can't wait for VFW :(

[Sharktooth]

Unfortunately vfw = $$$ ...

[IgorC]

http://www.on2.com/pdf/vp7_white_paper.pdf

it said that vp6.2 was better than Nero Avc (default Max. Definition profile). ¿¿??. i can´t agry at all.

[Irwin]

and Wmv9 is better then nero h264 !?! (psnr) I can´t agry at all too. They don't read "Codec shoot-out 2004".

Anyone have starsky and hutch good quality trailer ? - maybe little 400kbps nero h264 test.? ;-)

[Sirber]

Or they don't use the best settings...

[Irwin]

in this pdf:
Nero Digital H.264
- Defaults for maximum definition AVC profile
- High-quality two-pass
- Cartoon source
- Psycho-visual enhancements set to high.

I'm looking for starsky and hutch trailer for test this.

[Sagittaire]

Originally posted by Irwin
in this pdf:
Nero Digital H.264
- Defaults for maximum definition AVC profile
- High-quality two-pass
- Cartoon source
- Psycho-visual enhancements set to high.

I'm looking for starsky and hutch trailer for test this.

default setting aren't the best : for exemple deblock = 0 without adaptative is better for metric, psy low is better for metric than psy high ... ect ect ect

[babayaga]

Originally posted by Sagittaire
default setting aren't the best : for exemple deblock = 0 without adaptative is better for metric, psy low is better for metric than psy high ... ect ect ect
No, the settings they used are not the best but I'm not sure it explains the curve. Maybe they have a problem making the measurements (this could be difficult) ...

We know precisely the R/D curve for Football since the sequence was available for download. VP6.2 and our points are not where they are drawn.

Anyway, Bobololo did a small test encoding one of the available trailers to have a precise idea of VP7 capabilities (hp3, not exactly the same but the complexity should be very similar)
I was a bit anxious before looking at the comparison. Now I can peacefully work on some asm optimizations without fearing too much :)

[Sirber]

What is hp3 codec? :confused:

[babayaga]

Originally posted by Sirber
What is hp3 codec? :confused:
lol it's not a codec. It's a movie about a young orphan in a wizard school :D

[Sirber]

http://members.lycos.nl/diezijngek/magicgallery/Bunny@pancake.jpg
;)

[IgorC]

hp3 = harry poter 3 and Prisoner of Azkaban
i´ve ripped it just yesterday with Nero AVC with best settings :cool:


400 kbits of VP7 didn´t impressed me so much. maybe cause of low bitrate?
Can anybody upload 2 samples (just a couple of seconds) approx. 700 kbit/s VP7 and Nero H.264 at their best repectivly settings?

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

Those funny marketting guys are using psnr to compare codecs, but setting psy enhancements to high (thus lowering psnr) in competitors.

It reminds me the Ms wma statements.
Wma7 - cd quality @64kbps !
Wma9 - cd quality @48kbps !!
And comparisons by Ms were done against a 2 years old version of Lame with intentionnaly badly choosen parameters.

Here it seems that the same scheme is followed: choose samples carefully, select unoptimal options for competitors, and tell the world that you made the best encoder.

[Sagittaire]

Here it seems that the same scheme is followed: choose samples carefully, select unoptimal options for competitors, and tell the world that you made the best encoder.

In fact VP7 is certainly by far the first or second codec for metric performance (if VP6 vs VP7 test is correct VP7 is IMO the best) ...

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

In fact VP7 is certainly by far the first or second codec for metric performance (if VP6 vs VP7 test is correct VP7 is IMO the best) ...
Well, competing on the psnr field is a choice, but in this case why intentionnaly lowering the psnr results of competitors?

[DeathTheSheep]

I beleive that VP7 is one of the best codecs in the world. I thought the same thing about VP6, even after AVC (but to a lesser degree). The decoding of VP6 content was exceptionally fast.

I could not decode XVid, AVC, WM9 (surprise), RV10, or even experimental snow on my laptop (166mhz). VP6 decoded with ease (Main Profile).

Complexity is a big thing these days, because the world is filling with Movie-enabled cellphones (stupid cellphones :devil:), Pocket PCs (GO PPC!!! :cool:), etc, all with mobile processors.

Heh, even though VP6 wasn't supported on any mobile device I've ever worked with, It was still cool 'cuz it was just as easy as MPEG1 decoding (as far as I could tell) on my ancient laptop.

Cheers, baa

PS:
Seriously, ON2, everyone I know has a pocket pc. Me, bro, sis, cousin, tons of friends... Why ain't it supported on 'em?

[DeathTheSheep]

@vfw people:

VP7 does indeed support VFW, the standard everybody knows and (not everybody?) loves.

Features:
....
-Support for Video for Windows (VFW) and Direct Show

[On2Tech]

Can we take this opportunity to address a couple of issues.

The Salmon clip is one that was provided for us by a client for testing and it has formed part of our test suite for several years. It IS tough, just look at the data rates vs PSNR numbers and you will see that all the codecs find this clip hard. In our testing, the Nero/Ateme codec (in common with all the other H.264 other we have tested in the past), performed relatively poorly on this clip, though it did better in some of our other tests.

With all codec tests the results depend on a number of factors including but not limited to, the characteristics of the clip itself, the data rate, the image size and the codec settings. We have tried to get the best we can out of each of the codecs in our tests (given our time constraints) and the results are offered in good faith. As and when we have time to do more extensive tests, or repeat tests using the modified settings suggested by various posters, we will do so, and will post the modified results.

Within a fairly short time frame there will be an opportunity for you to test VP7 out for yourselves. We are confident that you will all see a sizeable improvement, as demonstrated by the graphs we have shown and all the other testing we have done. How big will that improvement be? Well, as always that will depend on the factors I mention above. If you are coding really hard material or animated material (especially at the low bandwidths or small image sizes that are of particular interest to certain of our clients) then it will likely be HUGE. If you are coding more straightforward material at high rates, the difference will be smaller.

One last point. This is only a preview and we are still working towards a formal beta. Some features in both the encoder and decoder are still being worked on or tuned, so we fully expect to get further improvements. For example, for the clips and graphs in the preview ALL post processing is disabled! I.e. what you see is the raw performance of the codec without any help from post processing at all.

On2Tech

[Sirber]

looking forward to it :D

[DeathTheSheep]

If you are coding really hard material or animated material (especially at the low bandwidths or small image sizes that are of particular interest to certain of our clients) then it will likely be HUGE.

Oh my goodness. I don't know what to say... Everyone who knows me here would know that that is what I live for (kind of). I'll also test this thing (and pretty darn thouroughly) if this is true...

If I understand correctly, the improvement will be rather significant with the following:

size=320*240
material=anime
framerate=7-24 fps
bitrate=excuciatingly low

Now, this is what I like.

PS: Oh, any info regarding PocketPC decoders? That would definately interest many people (I'm talking *tons*):cool:

[CruNcher]

Originally posted by On2Tech
Within a fairly short time frame there will be an opportunity for you to test VP7 out for yourselves. We are confident that you will all see a sizeable improvement, as demonstrated by the graphs we have shown and all the other testing we have done.

I think i can say for all users here, that we really looking forward to that :)

[JohnV]

Originally posted by On2Tech
We have tried to get the best we can out of each of the codecs in our tests (given our time constraints) and the results are offered in good faith. As and when we have time to do more extensive tests, or repeat tests using the modified settings suggested by various posters, we will do so, and will post the modified results.On2Tech Yes, of course you try your best. It's just a bit strange (but not surprising) that in your test even VP62 does so well against Nero AVC, which is a bit suspicous considering 3rd party results.
My personal opinion is that we should let this kind of comparisons be handled by 3rd parties, but I understand that companies need to hype and advertize..

[Sharktooth]

Well at least they have a VFW codec... and it works with any app...
However, on2tech said someting like: give us what parameters to use and we will update the graphs...
So, give him the parameters and we'll see :)

[JohnV]

I'd like On2 to give us the source video, so we can all check.

[SpaceV]

yeah ON2 should give you guys the
source video, you compress it and send the comprressed
file back to ON2 so that they can update their graph.

That makes the most sense.

Did some one sent ON2tech a msg already??

[Lefungus]

Giving valuable sample videos would be a too nice gift to Nero :)
After all these two companies compete in the same field.
Anyway, the marketing talk is always debunked once people are able to test it themselves.

[neo_anderson]

So, when will VP7 codec be revealed to us?

[Gannjunior]

Any news about this supercodec?
i'd like to test it!!:D

ciao!!

[Sirber]

nothing yet... :(

[LordRPI]

Wasn't C0mPr355 posting in the new-animated-source-for-codec-shootout thread just recently?

[Leo 69]

What a heck is their AVC-AUDIO :confused: Is it HE-AAC ?


128 kbps quality equal to that of compact disks even to expert listenershttp://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_hitrost.gif

[Sharktooth]

Originally posted by Leo 69
What a heck is their AVC-AUDIO :confused: Is it HE-AAC ?


http://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_hitrost.gif
No, it's on2 proprietary audio codec. Dont confuse it with h.264/AVC, it's a completely different thing.

[huang_ch]

Just wondering, why no comparison with RV10...

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
No, it's on2 proprietary audio codec. Dont confuse it with h.264/AVC, it's a completely different thing.

So you mean on2 also has a audio codec, right? Any information of how this audio codec works compare to others ?

[Sharktooth]

From what i've "heard" (i tested the on2 software that included AVC for audio encoding) is something like mp3pro, maybe slightly better.

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
From what i've "heard" (i tested the on2 software that included AVC for audio encoding) is something like mp3pro, maybe slightly better.
WooWoo~~~ Though may be not as good as HE-AAC... but at least much better than MP3, on2 brings us a rather big surprise....:D

[Sirber]

Their AVC is quite old. It's been there since VP4 or before.

[huang_ch]

Originally posted by Sirber
Their AVC is quite old. It's been there since VP4 or before.
:o I just become know on2 since VP6... Is it possible to use VP6/7 video codec seperately and plus a RA10 or OGG and combine into MKV or other containers?:D

[*.mp4 guy]

Yes that is easily possible, just use AviMux Gui to mux the avi file and the Vorbis (*.ogg extension) audio into a matroska (*.mkv). That is of course assuming there will be a vfw interface, then it shouldn't be a problem(directshow might work too?).

[Sirber]

Originally posted by huang_ch
:o I just become know on2 since VP6... Is it possible to use VP6/7 video codec seperately and plus a RA10 or OGG and combine into MKV or other containers?:D It's called RealAnime :p

[Sharktooth]

I wonder if on2 guys could enlight us with some VP7 news ... :)

[Doom9]

it's not quite finished yet. Besides that, you already know that it's not going to be free.

[Sagittaire]

test in progress with VP7:

Movie, CGI and Anime with VCD (384*288), DVD (720*400) and HDTV (1280*720) resolution ...