Hardware discussion/analysis relating to software playback

[SamuriHL]

There's really no need to take offense just because we're having a little fun with nVidia. It's clear even they can screw up. It is what it is and sometime next year we'll be able to actually find cards. Until then, I think they deserve a verbal lashing for this. Their claim of "oh, WOW, we didn't realize that releasing these cards at a decent price with so much performance would really have such high demand" is rather ludicrous would you not agree? In the end all we can do is wait. And maybe this has opened a door for AMD...and maybe not. We will see once they launch.

[videoh]

You invent words and put them in their mouth, call it ludicrous, and then ask if I agree. What a silly game you are playing.

[huhn]

so ok. what we heard is that supply was present not the highest ever supply and clearly not the lowest ever supply. so they tried a normal launch and failed miserable. to bad looks like they can print money now by producing as many as possible.

7nm rumour...
TSMC 7 nm is currently used for the consoles those things that are sold out before the release. there are different 7nm nodes so that a thing but still demand is heavy for now.
does this mean there will be no 7 nm ampare GPU?

so how do you produce more smasung "nvidia" 8nm GPUs you can not really do that it takes years to build a new fab the current one has to do.
but you could for examples make the new smaller GPU with a different node like let's say 7nm TSMC? by hoping it's demand get'S lower thanks to 5nm for smartphones. which could happen in 3-6 month but unlikely in the next months. a super card is possible to but that may stop customer form buy Samsung 8 nm cards and you don't want that yet.

[SamuriHL]

Omg uh yeah totally just made it up. Lol

said Huang, "The demand issue is that it is much much greater than we expected - and we expected really a lot."

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

I don't think that they will have a problem selling 8nm samsung chips if they can get them out the door. I think you are quite correct that the supply is going to be very low until February or March next year. I don't see them switching to 7nm tmsc until the super refresh but that's only an opinion. No one really knows for sure what they plan at the moment. Even the rumors get rumors now. Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

they could stop/not start making mid to low end GPU using smasung so they can make more GA102/GA104.

[SamuriHL]

That's an interesting thought. Switch the 3090 and 3080 to 7nm, potentially increasing the oc potential a little bit in the process, and save the samsung 8nm for lower tier gpus. Hmm I could totally see that.

Edit or are you saying the reverse? Keep the high end on samsung and do lower tier on tsmc?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

low end on TSMC to not confuse the customer.
you can release the lower end cards later and just keep pushing GA102/104 for now.

[SamuriHL]

That makes sense and would allow them greater yields in theory by spitting it between two factories. I like that idea. Maybe that'll become reality.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[NikosD]

nVidia is the new Intel.

And you all know the reason for this mess.

It's only three letters...

[pirlouy]

ARM indeed.

[NikosD]

Exactly...AMD is ARMed more than ever for both of them.

An unforgettable Red October.

BTW, nVidia is not going to close the deal with ARM. Ever.

[Cineaste]

Do they only sell AMD in Greece? And what's with Red October? So dramatic...

[videoh]

AMD is team red and nVidia is team green. Nothing wrong with a little drama, IMHO.

[NikosD]

AMD is the number one company in sales regarding CPUs in Germany.

Take a look for example at the sales of mindfactory.de.

But in general the DIY market/ community belongs to AMD regarding CPUs, take a look of the best sellers CPUs at amazon.com.

Before the end of this year, AMD is going to get a huge sales boost regarding GPUs as well, probably as the best seller products like CPUs.

[Cineaste]

I'm German.

What you said had me intrigued so I did some research and found this:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/197681/umfrage/marktanteile-am-absatz-von-grafikkarten-weltweit-seit-dem-3-quartal-2010/

As you can see, Nvidia vs AMD market share in Q1 2020 was 78% vs 22% (GPU only). For AMD to become the new bestseller they have a LONG way to go. In fact, they haven't been close since 2010...

Disclaimer: My favourite colour is red so no bias there!

[NikosD]

What you said intrigued me to find some relative comment

Today looks like a rainy day in Berlin but the next few days is going to be with clouds but no rain probably

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/germany/berlin/ext

[huhn]

DIY is only a small part of the PC industry up to this day intel has problems meeting demand they sell this well and they lost production thanks to there on going problems with 10 nm.

it's just biased reporting. the laptop market is heavily intel dominated too the relative bad AMD iGPU clearly don't help they still use vega...


this show a heavy trend in getting AMD instead of intel for gaming: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/processormfg/

you are usually totally fine with 4 year old CPU in the game space this takes quite some time to change even more drastically.

[NikosD]

Laptop and server market is OEM market where Intel bribes heavily people in decision making positions.

Intel has a huge budget for bribing revealed in a slide of their presentation as marketing budget.

Vega GPUs are totally fine for laptop APUs and have nothing to do with laptop sales.

After Renoir CPU for laptops, AMD has increased their sales dramatically even in this sector.

Server market is more difficult, but after Milan Zen 3 based CPUs, AMD could finally overcome 10% that had with Rome Zen 2 based server CPUs.

https://phonemantra.com/intel-pays-pc-makers-again-not-to-use-amd-processors/

[Cineaste]

Laptop and server market is OEM market where Intel bribes heavily people in decision making positions.

Where is your evidence? Do you know someone in a position-making position who was bribed? No?

Moving on.

[NikosD]

Where is your evidence? I see, there is none.

Moving on. You must be very new to hardware business if you really didn't know that Intel has paid billions to recover from its malpractices:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-with-1-45-billion-fine-in-europe-for-unfair-and-damaging-practices-against-amd

Of course Intel has earned a lot more billions from its malpractices than the fines that paid to AMDThe EU found, in part:

That Intel paid rebates to manufacturers on the condition that they would buy all (Dell) or nearly all of their CPUs from Intel.

That it paid retail stores rebates to only stock x86 parts.

That it paid computer manufacturers to halt or delay the launch of AMD hardware, including Dell, Acer, Lenovo, and NEC.

That it restricted sales of AMD CPUs based on business segment and market.

OEMs were given permission to sell higher percentages of AMD desktop chips, but were required to buy up to 95% of business processors from Intel.

At least one manufacturer was forbidden to sell AMD notebook chips at all.

Intel then further restricted manufacturer sales by only allowing the 5% of business systems to be sold to small and medium enterprises, only via direct distribution, and only if the business distributor pushed back the launch a further six months.

[huhn]

the fact AMD never bothered to upgrade iGPU to NAVI is a problem and shows a clear lack of dedication and just selling them the old stuff is not seen in a great light even intel updates there "terrible" iGPU more often.

it literally took 1 year to get a NAVI dGPU in a laptop...
the 5700 is already EOL.

[Cineaste]

You must be very new to hardware business if you really didn't know that Intel has paid billions to recover from its malpractices

Mate, that article is 6 years old. I want to see recent evidence that supports your claim. Don't cling on to the past if you want to make a point about the present. It invalidates your entire argument.

[NikosD]

Mate, that article is 6 years old. I want to see recent evidence that supports your claim. Don't cling on to the past if you want to make a point about the present. It invalidates your entire argument. Said someone who is posting graphics card sales data from 2010 to make a point of CPU sales of 2020...

[Cineaste]

Said someone who is posting graphics card sales data from 2010 to make a point of CPU sales of 2020...

I literally said Q1 2020 and specifically mentioned GPU sales (not CPU) - please read again and educate yourself.

It just so happens that the graph contains sales data all the way from 2010 to 2020, which is why I brought it up. I would not have bothered if recent data was not included, unlike you with your 6-year old article.

You seem overly defensive.

[NikosD]

You brought GPU sales in the discussion when I was talking about CPU sales.

And you insist on this thing.

And you insist on Intel not bribing and not using malpractices.

You seem overly manipulative.

[Cineaste]

You brought GPU sales in the discussion when I was talking about CPU sales.

Christ, perhaps read your own posts before making assumptions:

Before the end of this year, AMD is going to get a huge sales boost regarding GPUs as well, probably as the best seller products like CPUs.

That's what you said, no? Clearly you compared the sales potential of GPUs to CPUs.

I then invalidated your argument by referring to historic sales data between 2010 and 2020, which paints a clear picture.

As for Intel, I don't insist on anything. I merely asked you to provide evidence to support your claim, and you are seemingly unable to produce anything other than an article from 6 years ago.

Anyway, I'll leave it here since you seem to just contradict yourself.

[chros]

A rumored cancelation of a rumored model? Maybe it never existed in the first place? :P
:D

7nm rumour...
...
so how do you produce more smasung "nvidia" 8nm GPUs you can not really do that it takes years to build a new fab the current one has to do.
You have a valid point here, but nvidia already has an Ampere TSMC 7nm card: A100 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/15801/nvidia-announces-ampere-architecture-and-a100-products) !

7nm rumour...
TSMC 7 nm is currently used for the consoles those things that are sold out before the release. there are different 7nm nodes so that a thing but still demand is heavy for now.
does this mean there will be no 7 nm ampare GPU?

low end on TSMC to not confuse the customer.
you can release the lower end cards later and just keep pushing GA102/104 for now.
Then why cancelling 16/20GB of cards??? (If this rumor is true at all.)
That would be the weirdest step they can (could?) make: it just doesn't make any sense.
The only explanation I can think of is:

Or its simply being replaced by another SKU, perhaps Super models on TSMC 7nm are coming earlier then expected.
Or maybe bringing Hopper sooner, e.g. a year later from now? :)

I think they screwed up this release very badly with memory configuration! They could have sold every other shite attribute (high power consumption, bad performance scaling, etc) but not these memory configs...
That's how they wanted to segment the market, because with DLSS any mid range GPUs can do 4k otherwise :) So, how to limit 3070/3060 sales to only 1440p or 1080p gamers? Give them 8/6GB of memory (at a very high price)!
But giving only 6/8GB 4 years later???!!! wtf?! Consoles have 16, AMD will have 16/12GB!
This way it's not competition but would be a massacre :D

nvidia well deserves this, with its bullshit marketing (er... propaganda :) ) and shite, overpriced products.
Lastly, Jim's newer video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s23GvbQfyLA) about the "Titan class" 3090 :D , very educational ... (huhn, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like him :) )

[Cineaste]

It is worth noting that consoles' 16GB are not comparable to GPU VRAM since they run on APUs (i.e. shared memory pool across GPU and CPU). So you're not getting a dedicated 16GB VRAM.

[chros]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)

[Cineaste]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)

A lot more from the looks of it :(

Digital Foundry has been handed an internal PS4 document by a “well-placed development source,” which states the system reserves 3.5GB of its 8GB GDDR5 memory for the operating system, which would leave around 4.5GB of space for game code.

Over 43% reserved for the OS! And that's just the PS4. God knows how much is locked away for the new consoles' many features.

[NikosD]

@Cineaste
It is very well known that AMD sells both CPUs and GPUs.

So in order to reply to your answer if in Greece there is only AMD to sell its products I replied in two parts in the same comment.

The first part of my comment was for mindfactory.de CPU sales which have broken every record possible for the last many months (few years)

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/73040/mindfactory-data-amd-is-outselling-and-smashing-intel-87-to-just-13/index.html

So, Germans buy a ton of AMD CPUs

I said the same for amazon.com best cpu sellers

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Computers-Accessories-Computer-CPU-Processors/zgbs/pc/229189

So, Americans buy a ton of AMD CPUs

Are we OK up to here ?

Then, in order to fullfil your desire for a complete answer of all AMD products I added the second part of my comment regarding a GPU sales boost towards the end of the year, obviously due to the marvelous RDNA2 architecture and a lot better (hopefully) availability of RX 6000 series cards compared to 308/3090 non existent availability.

Two different kind of AMD products two different parts of the same comment.

Are we OK now ?

As you can understand it's the last time I reply to such tricky and out of the context comments by you.

[huhn]

Then why cancelling 16/20GB of cards??? (If this rumor is true at all.)
That would be the weirdest step they can (could?) make: it just doesn't make any sense.

so it makes sense to you to sell a new product with double the RAM while a lot of customer are still waiting for the 10 GB version with the same chip on it? it's insane to even think about releasing a 20 GB version until they delivered there orders that would be such an insult to there customer...

not here to start rumours just listing possible solution to the current situation.

I think they screwed up this release very badly with memory configuration! They could have sold every other shite attribute (high power consumption, bad performance scaling, etc) but not these memory configs...
That's how they wanted to segment the market, because with DLSS any mid range GPUs can do 4k otherwise :) So, how to limit 3070/3060 sales to only 1440p or 1080p gamers? Give them 8/6GB of memory (at a very high price)!
But giving only 6/8GB 4 years later???!!! wtf?! Consoles have 16, AMD will have 16/12GB!
This way it's not competition but would be a massacre :D
DDR6x has low availability. and please sit back a sec and think things to an end.
the consoles have >shared< 16GB momey not 16 GB Vram so
you have 8 GB ram in your system and a 8 GB Vram GPU you are already in a similar space as the new consoles but hey that JIM guy just ignores these facts... because it counds so cool if a consoel has more Vram then your new high end GPU...
BTW 16 GB ram is considered base line as PC gaming and there is only one game that needs a lot of Vram and that's doom eternal and good luck seeing a difference between that setting and one lower.
nvidia well deserves this, with its bullshit marketing (er... propaganda :) ) and shite, overpriced products.
Lastly, Jim's newer video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s23GvbQfyLA) about the "Titan class" 3090 :D , very educational ... (huhn, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like him :) )

learn...
yeah just let him compare stuff he likes more so he get'S the biggest difference on his graphs without taking any easy accessible data into account like the series is part of one card... and then let him call the entire series "bad" such a joke...
just keep going and compare over price flagship cards very fair comparison don't take into consideration what AMD was doing at the time there is no need for that people could learn something from that but the number would be so "amazing" and it would be good content not but "you believe what nvidia said" followed by "the 3090 is the flagship..." quoted from nvidia...

the 3090 is a joke if you don't need the memory don't get it.

video: "You're Being Misled" you have something every in common with these companies.

[NikosD]

3080 is strictly a 4K gaming card, not less.

10GB of VRAM is the bare minimum for nowadays gaming at 4K and using Borderlands 3 with RayTracing you already need more than 10GB of VRAM for highest settings.

For next-gen gaming at 4K, it could be possible that 10GB will not be enough.

A future proof card for the next two years until the new architecture comes, should have more than 10GB of VRAM for 4K.

[NikosD]

Big Navi is freaking fast.

Even 6800 XT is beating 3080 in 3DMark.

nVidia lost the battle.

Game Over.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-6800xt-alleged-3dmark-scores-hit-the-web

[el Filou]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)Cineaste already replied that the OS in consoles need more than that, but also don't forget there are other data than just graphics, and games still need them in system RAM.

[NikosD]

nVidia is falling apart.

After the cancellation of 3080 20GB and 3070 16GB the AIBs are really pissed off.

After the non existent availability of 3080/3090 cards, the gamers/ clients are pissed off.

nVidia right now wants to take back the whole release of Ampere cards, but it's too late.

They have released the goddamned cards!

Oh Red October...What you have done to poor Intel and poor nVidia.

https://youtu.be/VWAzm-DUcM4

[NikosD]

But there are others who think differently and don't believe in all this hype.

Jarred Walton from Tom's Hardware, a site which has become a part of recent history while reviewing nVidia GPUs with the unforgettable "Just Buy It: Why Nvidia RTX GPUs Are Worth the Money" says that "Fake Rumors Suck: Will the Real RX 6000 Please Stand Up?"

Regarding the performance teaser of RX 6000 card in Ryzen 5000 announcement he believes Regarding that last point, one take (my take) is AMD would show its highest-performance option, meaning the RX 6900 XT

He also likes to remind us about Fiji architecture back in 2015 which lost the battle from the last minute reveal of 980 Ti and RX Vega 64 which stayed behind from 1080 Ti.

But he seems to forget (?) that for Ampere architecture, the 3080 is the 980 Ti and the 1080 Ti of the past and the fastest version of the same die is 3090, only 10% faster in games.

There are no other rabbits for nVidia to pull out of the hat.

Jarred Walton from Tom's Hardware is wrong. AMD didn't show 6900 XT but 6800 XT with one month older than final drivers (my take)

6800 XT trade blows with 3800 (it's faster in more games than it's slower) and 6900 XT...well...we 'll see...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/fake-rumors-suck-will-the-real-rx-6000-please-stand-up

[NoTechi]

Not sure if it belongs here but for those who are not aware of it it might be interesting.
In short marantz, denon and yamaha hdmi 2.1 implementation has a bug which can't be fixed by an software update. It causes a black screen under certain settings with new nvidia gpus and the upcoming xbox. PS5 is not affected. Will be interesting to see if new amd gpu are also affected.

Lots of German sites are informing about this bug atm but here is one in english (https://www.audioholics.com/news/bug-in-hdmi-2.1-chipsets) and here on avs forum (https://www.avforums.com/news/denon-marantz-and-yamaha-av-receivers-hit-by-hdmi-2-1-bug.18125).



NoTechi

[clsid]

Disabling GSync / VRR solves those AVR problems for some people.

[SamuriHL]

Sure, but, disabling GSync / VRR sucks. :) I get it....better than a black screen, but, damn new tech is a pain in the ass sometimes.

[NikosD]

YOU
Calling it, Nvidia has the crown for a long time yet. 16GB at near 3080 performance? DOUBT. Competitive prices? Yes @ 3070 levels and below. Nvidia is not worried in the slightest about Big Navi. I mean I tend to agree with the assertions that they'll be slightly faster than a 3070 but not near the 3080. Which is why, IMO, the leaked price is probably accurate. But we have nothing concrete so it IS just conjecture.
..And I maintain what I said...to compete with the 3080 it will need faster memory, not just gobs of slower memory. I have no doubt AMD is going to best the 3070 with their top end Big Navi card. But I have SERIOUS doubts about it reaching the 3080. That's just my opinion until we see some comparisons in the real world for both cards instead of paper specs, for which we don't even have on Big Navi yet. Everything right now is mere speculation and conjecture.All this guy has is rhetoric, insults, forlorn hopes, and sour grapes. I will pray for him.I don't think that AMD is much bothered by desktop GPUs. They have the console market now and that was an important step for them, that's where the money comes from (along with CPUs, datacenter products). The desktop market compared to the rest is mimimal.This is what Coreteks thinks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR70xbcwB6U) about RDNA2 GPUs. In short: big Navi will be only 3070 + 15% (with AMD preferred titles!) and won't be much more power efficient than Ampere.
(He also tries to answer my question above.)

Well, if that will be the case then only the pricing can save AMD from another disaster :)That's pretty much what I've been speculating this entire time. I think they beat the 3070 but fail to match the 3080. And they will be forced to lower prices before launch to compensate.

Sent from my SM-G975U using TapatalkYeah Nvidia was scared of big Navi [emoji23]:D I quote it for the future (I know you don't say it seriously).after your death prediction for nvidia by vega i can't wait for how this will turn out.You and me both. There's more hype on this thread than just about anywhere else on the internet.Could we at least wait until stuff is released and reviewed before going on and on about performance ?
https://www.techpowerup.com/273150/amd-big-navi-performance-claims-compared-to-tpus-own-benchmark-numbers-of-comparable-gpus
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/75367/if-these-new-amd-big-navi-leaks-are-true-the-rtx-3080-will-destroy-it/index.html
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-rtx-30-fine-wine-investigating-the-curious-case-of-missing-gaming-performance/
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/fake-rumors-suck-will-the-real-rx-6000-please-stand-up

ME
Just me.

[huhn]

did you see the price for the cards...

[NikosD]

6800 XL at 580$ with 16GB VRAM is a lot faster than 3070 at 500$ and 8GB VRAM.

6800 XT at 650$ with 16GB VRAM trade blows ( a little faster actually) with 3080 at 700$ with 10GB VRAM

6900 XT at 1000$ with 16GB VRAM using only 300W trade blows with 3090 at 1500$ with 24GB VRAM using 350W

Prices are perfect.

[huhn]

these are AMD claims. so yes they are competitive as expected NAVI was competitive too so nothing really changed people still in the total majority choice nvidia cards over AMD cards at that time in the same price range.

there is no killer deal to be made here. there is no hardware that "kills" nvidia. it's just a normal price battle. this is no zen 3 that's suppose to beat intel by a lot.

[ryrynz]

3 tests cherry picked tests and an article stating how much extra performance the 30 series has on tap in future [emoji6]
Better than expected but still premature. Not much of a RED OCTOBER aye [emoji23]
Ti's incoming.

[SamuriHL]

I'm all good. :) Hey, nVidia, how's about some cards now please? :)

[NikosD]

From guys saying that RDNA2 will be like Vega and that nVidia doesn't fear of Big Navi I would expect to be more humble.

But of course, nVidia fanatics like you couldn't react differently.

6900 XT is artificially limited to 300W by AMD for performance per watt ratio.

I expect custom designs to hit 350W and exceed even more 3090 performance.

6800 XT using 20W less is already a little faster than 3080.

It's the first time for AMD in the last many years to beat the highest flagship of the NEWEST architecture of nVidia released more or less at the same time with AMD.

Ampere release was a colossal event for tech journalists, beating 2080 TI about 45% (3090 card)
RDNA2 release showed us that AMD covered that difference and managed to overcome it a little.

99% of nVidia fanatics of this forum didn't expect AMD to beat 3070 and 100% of nVidia fanatics didn't want to beat even 3070.

We only saw reference cards, when we see custom 6800 XT and 6900 XT cards with 350W TDP the difference from 3080 and 3090 will be even bigger.

RDNA2 architecture using a 256bit bus with Infinity Cache is the most advanced GPU architecture in the world with the best efficiency and performance per power ratio for the first time in decades, along with the best absolute performance.

The market share or RX 6000 series is going to be HUGE.

And yes this October is RED as AMD has the fastest CPU and fastest GPU for the first time in history, as I said so.

[nussman]

AMD uses cheats like „smart access memory“ for its benchmarks? :D

[NikosD]

SAM was used in 6800 and 6900 XT benchmarks but not in 6800 XT.

It's not a cheat, it's a trick to buy an RX 6000 series GPU if you buy a Ryzen 5000 series CPU.
A clever trick as an added bonus performance.

The 450W TDP new BIOS of nVidia cards like 3080 EVGA and ASUS look like cheats a lot more.

I'm waiting for custom RX 6000 cards benchmarks using Intel and AMD processors, but I had already decided to buy a Ryzen 5000 series CPU before SAM.

Clocks, TDP and performance of custom RX 6000 series will be higher than these charts shown by AMD for reference cards, in any case.