Hardware discussion/analysis relating to software playback

[chros]

nVidia officially cancelled the launch of 3070 on 15th of October and pushed it back, just one day after the D-Day, the announcement of Big Navi.

The Earth has already started shaking for the upcoming release...
Hmm, "interesting", I wonder why this happened.

Jim talks about performance/watt/price of Ampere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjOnWT9U96g) by comparing top dies, he's not impressed :) Conclusion?
- performance: Ampere *and* Turing together achieved the same thing as Pascal did (last time)
- price: crap/worse than Turing was
- watt: maybe this generation should be called Watt instead of Ampere! :D

This gen has "only" 2 advantages: HDMI 2.1 and AV1 decoder ...

[NikosD]

This gen has "only" 2 advantages: HDMI 2.1 and AV1 decoder ... Both of them supported by AMD RX 6000 series and AV1 HW decoder is supported by Intel's Xe too.
Probably Rocket Lake will support in its Xe HDMI v2.1 too.
But AV1 HW decoder is hardware accelerated playback, not software.

[Alexkral]

This gen has "only" 2 advantages: HDMI 2.1 and AV1 decoder ...

And PCIe 4.0, I wonder if it can be useful for AviSynth AiUpscale and AviSynth Shader in general as the bottleneck is memory transfers from the GPU to the CPU.

[huhn]

good point!

@chros plz that guy is an insult on journalism.

comparing the generation performance by using 1 card that as an example. i don't even know anymore... is even not even aware of the low number of 2080 TI out there?
does he even realise that AMD did 100 % the same thing with navi.
RX 480 200-240
RX 5700 XT 400+ 96-100% performance increase for 100 % more money.

there is a reason the 2000 series didn't sell well that not competition from AMD by doing the same.

[SamuriHL]

Because the price was ridiculous. LOL I still have no regrets about my 2070 or this 2080 laptop. However, I have irritation about this "launch" of 3080 series and the inability to find one. I'm only looking at the ASUS lineup at this point. Even if that means it'll be next year before I get one. Oh well.

[NikosD]

...by comparing top dies, he's not impressed :) There was a reason that the marketing guy running nVidia, also known as leather-jacket-man, referred to 3080 as the flagship card of this generation and not 3090, although he presented them both at the same show from his kitchen.
He wanted to avoid such comparisons (performance per watt, performance per price etc) with 3090.

[huhn]

yes the 2000 series is over priced i claimed the same until AMD did the same then i was disarmed.

and why should you feel bad about buying the cheapest and fastest GPU you could at the time? there was no alternative except no GPU/laptop.

it this journalist even taking into account Vram price hike just blame solo on nvidia for price "increases" what about the loss of a microchip manufactures like global foundries and the rise of SSD and and smart phone needs. every one was going to TSMC and there was no way they ask for more too just like Vram?

and taking into account AMD did the same thing odd isn't it?
because the 2080 ti was 13% more expensive performance/dollar then the 1080 TI doesn't mean other cards where but by doing thsi you can't do a propaganda chart like this charts so you don'T do that.

that's what user care about: https://youtu.be/csSmiaR3RVE?t=1299
and the 3080 delivers here and if AMD will beat it or be in a similar range people will care about the RDNA 2 too. but until tehy are released i will not predict what will happen i don'T care about the shader count yet i don'T care about the memory interface yet.

and even AV1 decode isn't finished yet or do i needed to remind user here about the 970/980 hybrid garbage or the VP9 "decoder" in polaris.

[SamuriHL]

Agreed on all that. I've been quite pleased with my 20x0 cards. But I'm looking forward to the raw speed bump that a 3080 will provide over my 2070 for both gaming and for madvr especially. But I can wait until nVidia decides to get their s*** together. LOL

[el Filou]

and even AV1 decode isn't finished yetDo you mean on the GeForce, Radeon, or both? I've seen one review actually test the AV1 decode with Chrome and 8K YouTube, and Task Manager was showing 50% video decode with hardly any GPU 3D at all, so at least on the NVIDIA it's working.

[huhn]

so am i the only one that is pretty disappointed in zen 3?

i mean the 12 core looks ok and the 16 core too but 450 for an 8 core CPU i can easily get an 10 series i7 for 300, an 9 series i7 for 250 also an zen 2 3700x for 270 that's quite a difference in price i mean they compare then to the 3800x an CPU with a bad price performance ratio and even that CPU is available for 300. the 3900x cost around 400 so ehh well...

i mean they claim quite some performance uplift but i have my doubt they are aware of the current street prices...

this has a kinda a turing feeling with just similar price per performance.

looks like i end up with 2 zen 2 systems...

[Asmodian]

If you are beating the competition you charge more. AMD wants average prices of their CPUs sold to go up and they finally have the performance lead to get away with it.

I was not expecting competitive prices and I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of IPC increase claimed, including the clock speed bump it could be pretty significant. I definitely want to see benchmarks and where most all core OCs top out.

[SamuriHL]

I've been stuck in meetings all day so I haven't had a chance to catch up on Zen 3 news yet, but that's disappointing on price. I was considering a rebuild of my system while I wait for a 3080 to materialize, but not at those kinds of prices.

[butterw2]

a 19% IPC increase over a 16 month period is nothing to scoff at. But if you are not overly concerned with performance (IN GAMES !), zen2 still looks like a good option.

Zen3 is pretty much a drop in replacement for zen2: same process (slightly improved boost freq), same total L3 cache, same IO-die. They are just changing the CCX architecture to 8 cores (was 2*4 cores).

[huhn]

yes production cost clearly didn't increase the price.

edit: the clock speeds they have written down are pointless zen 2 is unable to reach these number without extrem overclocking boost clocks are simply pointless with AMD.

[Manni]

Definitely waiting for Rocket Lake here, especially if it meets its Q1 2021 delivery date (March). My position might be different because I need thunderbolt and a stable bios, but I don’t see anything at this stage that would make me change my plan if Rocket Lake delivers what I expect at a competitive price by April 2021. Nice to see AMD making that kind of progress though, but at that kind of price there is even less incentive for me to switch.

[NikosD]

People buying 3090 with 1500€ for no good reason and others buying Intel all these years with astronomical prices like Core i9 HEDT series which is a joke, are accusing AMD for the price of Zen 3.

So, you want to pay 10% to 20% more performance of 3090 vs 3080 with a price difference of 1500€ vs 700€ or you want to pay 2000$ for the two models of 18core HEDT Intel Core i9 7980XE/9980XE but you don't want to pay for better performance per price the Zen 3 processors.

Because they are AMD products.

Hilarious and very funny way to start your day reading your posts.

[el Filou]

Like many are saying, the biggest competitor to Zen 3 on release, with the prices that were announced, may not be Intel but Zen 2 itself. 5800X might not beat 3700X on performance/price.

It's interesting about HEDT, over here 9980XE can be found for 1109 eur (https://www.amazon.fr/Intel-i9-9980XE-processeur-Bo%C3%AEte-Smart/dp/B07JGCMQY8/), while 3960X is at 1409 eur.
I still think AMD should've released a 16-core Zen 2 Threadripper for people who need more PCIe lanes and/or higher memory bandwidth but not necessarily 24 cores.

[NikosD]

Tom from MILD has a new video and he is like reading my comments.
He thinks Zen 3 is the new Sandybridge for AMD this time aka a fully dominant architecture over the rival.
Zen 3 is going to be faster on everything than Intel.
Also, as he says in the video no HEDT for Intel across all 2021.
Now, regarding RX 6000 benchmarks he also thinks that the Big Navi shown at the presentation will not be the fastest one, but the second.
More here (and regarding availability)
https://youtu.be/SE5eYTIwoT0

[NikosD]

On the other hand a very respectful site like techpowerup.com says that AMD probably cherry-picked games for its presentation and the performance of Top Big Navi will be comparable to 2080 Ti level of performance.
Quote:
We know this is a very coarse and unscientific way to compare AMD's numbers to ours, and AMD has probably cherry-picked games that are most optimized to its GPUs, but it lends plausibility to a theory that Big Navi may end up comparable to the RTX 2080 Ti, and trade blows with the upcoming RTX 3070, which NVIDIA claims outperforms the RTX 2080 Ti.
https://www.techpowerup.com/273150/amd-big-navi-performance-claims-compared-to-tpus-own-benchmark-numbers-of-comparable-gpus

The nVidiot tech journalist responsible for the above article is called "btarunr"

[videoh]

The nVidiot tech journalist responsible for the above article is called "btarunr" Why do you need to toss around insults? Your technical arguments are not persuasive enough? Or you are just a jerk?

[NikosD]

Why do you need to toss around insults? Your technical arguments are not persuasive enough? Or you are just a jerk? I don't need to insult anyone.

I like doing so, especially for Intel and nVidia shills like "professional" tech journalists as these who are working in trusted and respectful sites to write garbage, most of the time paid articles.

Or simply jerks like you for example.

Are you ?

[Manni]

Why do you need to toss around insults? Your technical arguments are not persuasive enough? Or you are just a jerk?

Don’t feed the troll :)

The only thing he knows is insults and personal attacks.

Sadly the moderators don’t seem to care.

[NikosD]

Don’t feed the troll :)



The only thing he knows is insults and personal attacks.



Sadly the moderators don’t seem to care. Who is trolling and who is attacking others personally ?

You probably mean that I'm the victim of personal attacks.

Or do you mean that videoh is the tech journalist who wrote that article in techpowerup ?

Why are you calling moderators ?

Friends of you and videoh probably ?

[huhn]

Like many are saying, the biggest competitor to Zen 3 on release, with the prices that were announced, may not be Intel but Zen 2 itself. 5800X might not beat 3700X on performance/price.

It's interesting about HEDT, over here 9980XE can be found for 1109 eur (https://www.amazon.fr/Intel-i9-9980XE-processeur-Bo%C3%AEte-Smart/dp/B07JGCMQY8/), while 3960X is at 1409 eur.
I still think AMD should've released a 16-core Zen 2 Threadripper for people who need more PCIe lanes and/or higher memory bandwidth but not necessarily 24 cores.

yes for some odd reasons AMD gave up on the "budget" massive PCIe lanes option the discontinued 1900x was very useful for these cases.

what so ever i currently have a hard time seeing a 5800x ~450 been 50 % faster then a 3800x ~300 and don't forget the 3700x.

the reason zen 2 even got popular for gaming wasn't the fact they are faster it was the fact they where cheaper and the difference between intel was often "meaningless".

is the 9900k faster in gaming then a 3700x? yes without a doubt but it's just massively better to put the ~150 difference in a better GPU with the slightly less powerful gaming CPU.

if the 5600x is beating or even to the 3700x in everything i may still get one but else the values is questionable. i'm not going to buy a 450 euro CPU the money is better spend on other parts.

[QBhd]

...

edit: the clock speeds they have written down are pointless zen 2 is unable to reach these number without extrem overclocking boost clocks are simply pointless with AMD.

Boost clocks work perfectly fine with AMD if you know what you are doing. My 3700X (which is far from a Golden sample) will hit 4400 on single core and usually boosts up to 4100 all core... If I crank my AIO fans to max I can get that all core boost up to 4200.

As for the prices, I am more than happy to let AMD tack on $50 per skew if the performance claims are true.

QB

[SamuriHL]

See I struggle cause CPU performance doesn't mean nearly as much to me anymore as GPU does. Yes, you need a decent CPU, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but, decent...doesn't have to be melt your face off performance. What entices me to the AMD camp is not just the raw performance edge over Intel, which is pretty vast at this point, but the fact that they've had a leg up on PCIe 4.0. We're getting into what, 2nd, 3rd gen boards now with PCIe 4.0 on AMD? Intel's starting to maybe think about possibly ok we just might for real this time release their PCIe 4.0 stuff in spring of 2021. Yeaaaaaaa. I really can't say that for me with a 9900k and 32 gigs of pc3200 ddr4 that it's really TIME to upgrade. PCIe 4.0 would be nice, though, for more than just a 3080.

[huhn]

holding 4.4 for a short time is just "pointless" measuring tools are not accurate enough to show the real deal they do this only for a very very short time so they can say it's not "wrong" and there is the issue with precision boost... nearly as much of a mass as MCE on intel. AMD is so advanced with there boost clock they switch in such an fast interval that thee shown number is not represent of the true clock.
pre abba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgSoZAdk_E8

because AMD say it is 50 doesn't mean it is 50 a 3700x cost 270 and a 3800x 300 the 5800x is planned for 450 that not a delta of 50! a 5800x for 350 and the shown claims no question count me in.

edit: AMD has only one mainstream mainboard series with PCIe 4 that the 500 series and with only two chipsets with PCIe 4. don't care enough just to fact check if the 550 can do PCIe 4 at all but as far as i know it's no the PCIe 4 is coming directly from the CPU.

[Asmodian]

B550 motherboards do support PCIe 4.0 lanes from the CPU but the lanes to and from the chipset are 3.0.

Boost clocks work perfectly fine with AMD if you know what you are doing. My 3700X (which is far from a Golden sample) will hit 4400 on single core and usually boosts up to 4100 all core... If I crank my AIO fans to max I can get that all core boost up to 4200.

What control do you have over it? Keeping it cool? You get a +0.25x step in multiplier for every 4-7 degrees C drop in temperature but I am not sure what else "know what you are doing" could mean. Are you maxing out PBO or something? My 3950X under water will "hit" 4.675 Ghz for maybe a few milliseconds (I did see 4.7 Ghz max clock reported once) and it will boost to ~4.15 Ghz under all core load. A manual OC to 4.4/4.3 CCD0/CCD1 is faster for everything but pure single threaded workloads and not much slower even then. What really annoys me is how it boosts with middling loads, as soon as there is more then one thread doing anything I never see any core go above ~4.45 GHz even for a few milliseconds while temps stay very low.

I am not sure what "perfectly fine" means to you but AMD's boost algorithm is still temperamental at best. If you want to look into really freaking it out research the Ryzen PBO EDC bug (https://www.overclock.net/threads/edc-1-pbo-turbo-boost.1741052/) for more information. :p

[huhn]

so great he even he even needed a new nick name.

[SamuriHL]

That's depressing about pcie 4 support. I was under the impression they'd been doing it a while and that it was full support. Guess I will hold off that till it matures a bit more. I've not followed the amd stuff too closely but a couple guys I know have been playing with overclocking their 3800x and seem to be having fun. No idea how stable it really is. Not something I'll be doing. Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

why should there be something wrong with the PCIe 4 implementation? the only thing related to issue with PCIe 4.0 are NAVI GPUs where the cure for blackscreens is >everything<.

[nevcairiel]

There is nothing wrong with PCIe4, its just market segmentation. B550 is cheaper because the chipset doesn't have an expensive PCIe 4.0 controller (boards still have PCIe 4.0 for the GPU, straight from the CPU). If you want PCIe 4.0 everywhere, there is X570, and likely going to be plenty board refreshes coming out the next month until the Ryzen 5000 release.

[Manni]

There is nothing wrong with PCIe4, its just market segmentation. B550 is cheaper because the chipset doesn't have an expensive PCIe 4.0 controller (boards still have PCIe 4.0 for the GPU, straight from the CPU). If you want PCIe 4.0 everywhere, there is X570, and likely going to be plenty board refreshes coming out the next month until the Ryzen 5000 release.

Are you aware of any AMD mobo that will have full PCIE 4 and full Thunderbolt 4 implementation? I need a robust TB4 for my specific application (I’m using TB3 currently with many peripherals) and that’s one of the last things that ties me to Intel for now and why I’ll try to wait for Rocket Late if it does show up in Q1. I’d happily try an AMD MB fitting my needs, though I’m a bit concerned with bios stability.

I usually keep a build at least 5-10 years (current one is 8 years old, with a few CPU/GPU/Mem upgrades along the way) so I really build with room to grow. I don’t expect any significant performance improvement with PCI4 to start with, even with the 3090, though there might be a minimal difference.

[nevcairiel]

I'm not aware of a single board, Intel or AMD, with Thunderbolt 4. It usually takes a while for adoption, TB4 was only finalized this year afterall (in July). I wouldn't expect that on boards until at least mid next year.
TB3 AMD boards exist, but they are rare, although may get more common now that other vendors are allowed to produce Thunderbolt silicon instead of having to buy Intels chips.

[SamuriHL]

I want pcie 4 for more than just gpu. I guess I'll see what mobo mfgs do with the zen 3 on their refresh models. Like i said I've not followed amd solutions all that closely but would defintely consider it now. Time to do some homework.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

if you really want TB 4 just do it with addon cards x570 has more then enough bandwidth for that and that the most PCIe lanes on consumer boards you can get don't forget they are over a year old and the just released intel z490 is still PCIe 3...

i'm actually puzzled what's so special about TB 4 the difference to TB 3 is well not that much. there is no USB 4 on the market there is no DP 2.0 card on the market and in "general" it has the same speed as TB 3.

[Manni]

I'm not aware of a single board, Intel or AMD, with Thunderbolt 4. It usually takes a while for adoption, TB4 was only finalized this year afterall (in July). I wouldn't expect that on boards until at least mid next year.
TB3 AMD boards exist, but they are rare, although may get more common now that other vendors are allowed to produce Thunderbolt silicon instead of having to buy Intels chips.

Thanks, I was talking about upcoming AMD boards as you were mentioning them. AFAIK Intel will need Rocket Lake next year for TB4 support. If it means mid-year to do a build, that's a bit of a bummer, but I can wait if needed. I was hoping that new Intel boards with TB4 would be released around RL launch in April.

I want pcie 4 for more than just gpu. I guess I'll see what mobo mfgs do with the zen 3 on their refresh models. Like i said I've not followed amd solutions all that closely but would defintely consider it now. Time to do some homework.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I agree, I plan to use PCIE4 for my internal SSDs too.

In your case I wouldn't upgrade the CPU yet, with your new 3080 it's unlikely your current CPU will be a bottleneck.

if you really want TB 4 just do it with addon cards x570 has more then enough bandwidth for that and that the most PCIe lanes on consumer boards you can get don't forget they are over a year old and the just released intel z490 is still PCIe 3...

i'm actually puzzled what's so special about TB 4 the difference to TB 3 is well not that much. there is no USB 4 on the market there is no DP 2.0 card on the market and in "general" it has the same speed as TB 3.

I have limited space in my case so I'd rather have it integrated. This usually also helps with performance and stability.

There is no increase in bandwidth with TB4 vs TB3. Just added stability, which is a very important aspect for me.

As I said, when I do a build, I do it for 5-10 years, so I try to get the major techs on board. That means PCIE 4 and TB4 for my needs. As I explained, not massively significant today, but it will be within the next 2-3 years, and I'll still have that MB by then.

[SamuriHL]

I agree, I plan to use PCIE4 for my internal SSDs too.

In your case I wouldn't upgrade the CPU yet, with your new 3080 it's unlikely your current CPU will be a bottleneck.


Yea, that's exactly what I want. As for the GPU, I'm not as concerned about PCIe 4 there. But for NVMe I think it's going to make a nice difference. But I agree, I don't really want to upgrade the CPU either. However, it wouldn't be replaced so much as moved to a new HTPC for my other room with the 3D plasma.

[huhn]

I have limited space in my case so I'd rather have it integrated. This usually also helps with performance and stability.

There is no increase in bandwidth with TB4 vs TB3. Just added stability, which is a very important aspect for me.

As I said, when I do a build, I do it for 5-10 years, so I try to get the major techs on board. That means PCIE 4 and TB4 for my needs. As I explained, not massively significant today, but it will be within the next 2-3 years, and I'll still have that MB by then.

where do you get these stability and performance claims from?
TB 4 is a minor feature update. i mean that's about it: https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/8495582933/USB_insert.jpeg

[chros]

So I think I'm going to cancel next week and wait until we know more about the 3080ti as it might be on TSMC 7nm according to rumours, which might make it a bit less power hungry than the 3090. I don't really believe they'll move the already released card to 7nm, but that's still a slight possibility.
Yep, just cancel it, this is ridiculous.
Do you have a link about the 7nm rumors?

[SamuriHL]

Firmly in the rumor no one has a clue category:

https://www.thefpsreview.com/2020/10/09/nvidia-refreshing-geforce-rtx-30-series-on-tsmcs-7-nm-process/

[chros]

I see, cheers, well, I guess we will see, but even if it will happen, it won't be tomorrow :)

[Manni]

Yep, just cancel it, this is ridiculous.
Do you have a link about the 7nm rumors?

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/nvidias-rtx-30-series-gpus-may-switch-to-tsmcs-7nm-node-in-2021-rumor/

https://www.thefpsreview.com/2020/10/09/nvidia-refreshing-geforce-rtx-30-series-on-tsmcs-7-nm-process/

No idea how trustworthy these rumors are...

[chros]

Thanks. I still don't understand the reason why the +100W difference between 3070 and 3080:
- is it gddr6x?
- and/or awful scaling of hardware?

[el Filou]

why should there be something wrong with the PCIe 4 implementation? the only thing related to issue with PCIe 4.0 are NAVI GPUs where the cure for blackscreens is >everything<.There have been issues on X570 with add-in cards designed for older PCIe revisions. Among those reported that I've read about are sound cards, NICs, and FireWire adapters, but maybe there are others. Some motherboards manufacturers have fixed them with new BIOS that enable a "compatibility mode" that disables newer features of the protocol added in 4.0, one of those being the "10-bit tag" explained here: https://blogs.synopsys.com/vip-central/2016/05/03/full-utilization-of-16-gts-pcie-gen-4-bandwidth/
This has not been reported with GPUs AFAIK, and some people have reported that putting those add-in cards in the slot connected to the CPU does not cause the issues (but then you have to put your GPU on the chipset, so not a fix), so it may be related to the lanes on the X570 chipset. Then again as it's the only chipset currently providing PCIe 4.0 outside of the CPU lanes, there is no way to verify this on another platform (of course the issues could also come from the design of those older adapters not 100% following the protocol spec and causing forward compatibility issues, or "undefined behaviour").
Anyway, yes there have been issues even if it's limited to a very small percentage of hardware and users.
If I had to buy a new system now I would buy a B550 just to avoid that because I'm using an old add-in soundcard and PCIe Wi-Fi.

[QBhd]

I have zero issues with my soundcard... I don't think the problems described above are widespread.

QB

[huhn]

the x1 slots are PCIe 3 not 4 on x570 only the CPU slot and the x4 slot are PCIe 4. i have tested quite some sounds cards with it no problem and the PCIe x1 slots should be identical between b550 and x570.

older PCIe had that problem multiply times (even GPUs) where they stopped working in a new slot and the mainboard bios had to find a workaround. what so ever the topic was a new card in a new spec. if you create a PCIe x4 4 card right now you create it for x570 (for the most part). there shouldn't be any problem.

[Asmodian]

There have been issues on X570 with add-in cards designed for older PCIe revisions.

I am not sure how much I would worry about this, I am sure there are issues with some older cards but most work fine.

My Mellanox MCX354A (ConnectX-3, ca. 2011) and CX455A (ConnectX-4, ca. 2014) work perfectly in my X570 Asus Crosshair VIII Hero with no workarounds. I have all legacy compatibility modes disabled and the slots all in "auto" generation. I don't think these PCIe 3.0 devices are ones Asus did a special BIOS workaround for.

the x1 slots are PCIe 3 not 4 on x570 only the CPU slot and the x4 slot are PCIe 4. i have tested quite some sounds cards with it no problem and the PCIe x1 slots should be identical between b550 and x570.

The PCIe x1 slots support 4.0 on X570. Support for PCIe 4.0 lanes from the chipset is the major difference between X570 and B550. All the PCIe slots on my motherboard support PCIe 4.0.

[huhn]

i just checked again on msi they use PCIe 3.i only checked like 10 boards. the interface between chipset and CPU is PCIe 4 x4.

[Asmodian]

Weird, I just totally assumed it was standard for all X570 boards. :o

[huhn]

i just looked at an random board first which was an MSI board and i assumed it was normal that it uses PCIe 3 so that makes two.

[el Filou]

what so ever the topic was a new card in a new spec.Apologies, I misunderstood from the replies.

Yeah I did not say that this problem was widespread, just that it happened. I wasn't aware there had been forward compatibility issues with GPUs and PCIe before.

@QBhd I also have an X-Fi Ti which is good news, but on Creative's subreddit a lot of people reported problems with the very recent AE-x series of card for example, in fact I first learned about it on that forum.

AMD's spec page for X570 (https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570) says:Up to 16x PCIe® 4.0 Lanes [...] PLUS all of the PCIe 4.0, USB, and storage I/O from the AMD Ryzen Processorwhich clearly indicates PCIe lanes from the chipset can be 4.0, so I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers (especially MSI who was the first to provide a fix for the 10-bit tag issue) had limited the chipset lanes to 3.0 to avoid any potential issues.

[huhn]

i have an AE-X lying around somewhere.

the x570 is connected to the CPU (IO die) using PCIe 4 x4 so the max speed is PCIe 4 x4 no matter what.

in short zen 2 consumer has 24 PCIe 4 lanes 16 directly to the CPU 4 to the IO die for M.2 and 4 for the chipset (from the IO die).

it's quite complicated: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/14161/X570.png

[QBhd]

On my ASUS TUF X570...

AMD X570 chipset
1 x PCIe 4.0 x16 (max at x4 mode)
3 x PCIe 4.0 x1

So this confirms the 4 lanes from the chipset at least on mine. And also confirms the PCIe slots are all 4.0 when using Zen2 (3rd gen)

EDIT: Actually I think I am interpreting this wrong... that's 7 of the 8 available (based on the diagram above). My board has 8 SATA (Yes I use them all, LOL) so there seems to be lanes left on the table with this budget board.

EDIT 2: It's only 1 lane left unused? I do have the 2 NVMe (one from the CPU and one from the chipset)... UGH, I will agree with the "it's quite complicated" statement from huhn LOL

QB

[SamuriHL]

Seriously....it should NOT be that complicated but apparently is. I think I'll just....hold off a while before considering upgrading to something with a PCIe 4.x solution. LOL :D

[QBhd]

The PCIe 4.0 is not the complicated part... It's the versatility and customizability of the X570 chipset and how the vendors implement such flexibility. You just need to do the leg work and make sure the board suits your needs.

Edit: What nev said too :)

QB

[nevcairiel]

The PCIe 4.0 is not the complicated part... It's the versatility and customizability of the X570 chipset and how the vendors implement such flexibility. You just need to do the leg work and make sure the board suits your needs.



Indeed. And this isnt really new to this generation. But I guess there was less to care about before for many people. Motherboard picking has always been an art for me with big spreadsheets. :D

[QBhd]

Oh yeah, I spent the better part of a year deciding what X570 board to get. I originally wanted a Hero, but after really sitting down and thinking about the things I truly need, the TUF was the better option and about $250 cheaper....

Although, I really do like and want the new refreshed Hero Dark... Damn I just upgraded in March after 8 years on 990FX/8350... and now I want Zen3 and a Hero Dark... LOL

QB

[nevcairiel]

I'm currently looking at the Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master since it ticks all my boxes, but i'm still looking if they release new boards until November.

[Manni]

I cancelled my 3090 order today as I made barely any progress on the queue this week and wanted the money back before I had to pay the VISA bill, given they weren't even sure they could deliver by the end of November.
I'll wait until early next year to upgrade the GPU, when I have more time and we know better what the options are. Hopefully a 3080ti with 20Gb in 7nm.
CPU-wise, I'm still waiting until Rocket Lake is out to make a decision between Intel and AMD, but still leaning towards Intel for now due to my specific needs.
I guess most people would lean towards AMD, and rightly so. Zen 3 looks very appealing.
I don't expect to have my new rig fully built until the middle of 2021 now, so I have plenty of time to decide.
I'm like Nevcairiel, I use spreadsheets a lot when deciding on components for a new rig... :)

[SamuriHL]

100% agree on doing the legwork. I do the same but I've not researched AMD solutions in a VERY long time. But I think it's absolutely time to do so. AMD has really done their homework and hit a homerun. Prices will fall at some point.

[Asmodian]

I am also not stressed about getting a 3090 right away, I will buy one if I see the one I want available but no need to rush.

AMD's ecosystem is still less polished feeling. Everyone has their issues but the drivers/BIOS/utilities for AMD are cluckier and more likely to have annoyances than Intel's (at least in my experiance). It has matured a lot since Zen1 but it is still a bit off. All in all I am very happy with my 3950X but I like a bit of tweaking of memory timings, etc.

Zen2 was really good and Zen3 is looking even better. It reminds me of Thunderbird.

I think AMD needs to charge more than Intel while their CPUs are better and have the market hype. If they ever want to be similar to Intel in the minds of consumers they need to leave the days of simply being the cheaper alternative to Intel behind them. Price is a strong indication of quality in the minds of consumers and AMD will probably be able to sell them even at the higher prices given their current positive buzz. I know I have been recommending AMD CPUs to friends who don't know AMD from Asus in a way I haven't been able to for decades.

[huhn]

The PCIe 4.0 is not the complicated part... It's the versatility and customizability of the X570 chipset and how the vendors implement such flexibility. You just need to do the leg work and make sure the board suits your needs.

Edit: What nev said too :)

QB

and if you don't do that and buy about a week after release you end up with a x570x pro like me. it has a semi passive chipset cooler see value or something.

[videoh]

AMD's ecosystem is still less polished feeling. I agree. One example is that they rely on a poorly supported OpenCL for GPU compute stuff. Open non-proprietary is wonderful as long as it doesn't suck. ;)

[butterw2]

Since it is Red October, I've ported the Reshade/SweetFx version of AMD FidelityFX Contrast Adaptive Sharpening to .hlsl (9 texture, 47 arithmetic). I don't know if it useful for video playback.

[NikosD]

Since it is Red October... It is...And it will become more Red towards the end, when RX 6000 are announced.

And one more thing...OpenCL went back a few years, the moment the Vice President of nVidia got the chair of President of Khronos Group which is responsible for OpenCL and all the Open standards.

He butchered OpenCL.

Probably oneAPI from Intel - which is surprisingly an Open standard - could save us from CUDA proprietary polished monopoly.

[videoh]

Probably oneAPI from Intel - which is surprisingly an Open standard - could save us from CUDA proprietary polished monopoly. Speak for yourself. I don't need saving from CUDA. In fact, I see it as a saviour.

[Cineaste]

My EVGA 3080 XC3 is still a ways off. Has anyone else been able to snag one? I stupidly sold my 2080 Ti when 30 series hype was at its peak. No GPU since.

[huhn]

Speak for yourself. I don't need saving from CUDA. In fact, I see it as a saviour.

how can something running only on one GPU manufacture been see as a saviour?
also there is direct compute and "Vulkan compute" kind of.

and what have AMD to do with the state of OpenCL they support it pretty well unlike nvidia and that's all they can do about it they can't support CUDA.

[SamuriHL]

My EVGA 3080 XC3 is still a ways off. Has anyone else been able to snag one? I stupidly sold my 2080 Ti when 30 series hype was at its peak. No GPU since.Ah man that sucks. No I've stopped bothering even trying at this point. I've read rumors that nvidia is holding supply back for November when it'll try to flood what it can. I'm not sure I believe that. In any case I've chosen to wait till next year unless one magically appears when I'm randomly checking inventory. Good luck!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[NikosD]

Latest rumors for October 28th.

All GPUs announced/ released this year will be exclusively Big Navi21

There will be three:

Navi 21 XTX (AMD exclusive)
Navi 21 XT (AIBs - official flagship like 3080)
Navi21 XL

Navi21 XE for 2021

The Navi 21 XT has 2.4 GHz game clock (on average) and a TDP of 255W only.
It is the official flagship of RDNA2 architecture, like 3080 is the official flagship of Ampere architecture.

Navi 21 XT is the Big Navi21 that AIBs have in their hands and the one presented by Dr. Lisa on Ryzen 5000 series announcement.

There will be a faster version Navi21 XTX that AIBs know nothing about it, offered directly by AMD with even higher clocks and TDP of Navi 21 XT, like 3090 vs 3080.

The Navi 21 XTX will not be another Vega64 LC and Navi 21 XT will not be another Vega64, because Navi 21 XT is very close to 3080 with 65W less TDP, so there is a potential for Navi 21 XTX to reach or overcome 3090 with significant less power consumption.

[Manni]

Thanks for the information Nikos.

[NikosD]

I think Igor is right.

There was a misunderstanding between TDP and TGP for AMD and nVidia cards.
According to his leaks, Navi 21 XT which is going to compete with 3080, has the same power consumption from the wall for the whole card ~320W like 3080

The cards from AIBs are going to hit ~355W power consumption for Navi 21 XT
Maybe that is the reason that Asus and EVGA released BIOS of 450W for 3080 cards.

The Navi 21 XL goes around 290W.

The only thing left that saves RX 6000 from being Vega is that 3080 is actually like 1080 Ti and not 1080 and the release time of RDNA2 is not years later than Ampere.

Ampere and RDNA2 have actually almost the same release date, so users are going to select between them according to availability more than anything else.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/amd-radeon-rx-6000-the-actual-power-consumption-of-navi21xt-and-navi21xl-the-memory-and-the-availability-of-board-partner-card-exclusive/

[NikosD]

And now I have a bomb to drop.

If Navi21 XT is 320W and Navi21 XL is 290W, then this couple doesn't remind me 3080/3070 with 320W/220W but rather 3090/3080 with 350W/320W.

So, is it possible that Dr. Lisa showed us Navi 21 XL with 290W coming so close to 3080 and Navi 21 XT is actually faster than 3080 chasing 3090 ?

We have to wait a few days for such a bomb to explode, or not.

And what about Navi 21 XTX after all these ?
Does this thing have out of this world performance ?

[chros]

I don't believe that high power usage for navi cards, it can't be true, they are on a more advanced node without gddr6x! Well, we will see in real benchmarks.
And what about the rumor of 3600 with 6GB?! :D

[Cineaste]

I remember having to manually set Vsync in the Nividia control panel for 20-series GPUs, else it stuttered during playback without dropping/repeating frames. Is that still applicable for 30-series cards?

[SamuriHL]

Well, if you can get your hands on a 30xx card, you can let us know. LOL

[Cineaste]

Mine should be arriving within the next couple of weeks so here is hoping!

[SamuriHL]

Oh awesome! A lot of us have been itching to get some feedback from someone with a 30x0 card so that'll be great.

[Manni]

Mine should be arriving within the next couple of weeks so here is hoping!

My 3090 ordered on the 24th of Sept. was supposed to arrive on the 5th of October... I cancelled my order on the 12th as it was a bogus delivery date and given my place on the waiting list and the snail pace at which it was moving, it wouldn't have arrived until late November. Looking at the waiting list today, I still wouldn't have received it as only about 30 have been delivered (assuming no cancellation) in three weeks and I was close to 100 on the list. It looks like dealers are getting only a few units each week (and this is one of the biggest dealers in the UK). I hope yours is more accurate in their estimate!

Waiting for the 3080 20gb next year most likely.

[NikosD]

Back to reality...

Only one SKU with all Big Navi21 80CUs enabled - the RX 6900 XT with Navi 21 XTX

The good news are that this card will be announced on October 28th, but as AMD exclusive initially.

Two more cards 6800/6800XT will be announced on October 28th available from AIBs besides AMD.

There are rumors that RDNA2 cards will be manufactured using 7nm TSMC with EUV.

Navi 22 cards will be RX 6700/RX 6700XT available from January 2021.

My first reaction before seeing any benchmark is to buy this year RX 6800

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-6900xt-to-feature-navi-21-xtx-gpu-with-80-cus

[huhn]

My first reaction before seeing any benchmark is to buy this year RX 6800

You are an Intel fanatic and anti-AMD fanatic.
That's why you cared so much replying to me with a huge post.

...

...

Posts like this one above make me wanna write even more about this subject.
Posts from nVidiatel fanatics.

these levels of hypocrite. i love it.

[videoh]

Let it go. NikosD has been very reasonable in the last few weeks and seems to have reformed his ways. His posts are useful and informative.

[huhn]

take it as a you should wait for benchmarks just like with every other product as he sad pretty much yourself.

[QBhd]

Rumor Mills and Hype... it's always an easy trap to fall into, and some users do unfortunately. I agree with videoh, NickosD has been very level headed with his news lately.

As for the upcoming AMD GPU's, I think they will be very competitive and very close to nVIDIA... I am eagerly awaiting the reviews, since this could be a great time for AMD. Time will tell, but there is definitely more than blind hope this time around :)

QB

[huhn]

benchmarks will show.

i really need a HDMI 2.1 GPU for a week now...

[NikosD]

If the price of the Top Big Navi21 RX 6900 XT is below 1000 € Ι'll probably buy two of these sweeties.

One for me and one for my brother's system.

With a performance close to 3090 or slightly better, these RX 6900 XT cards will be a bargain.

And probably the availability, although limited, will be real this time on the contrary of another recent release.

[SamuriHL]

That's still speculation. It's ASSUMED that AMD will have a real product launch, but, the proof is in the delivery. It's all well and good to say that it'll be better before the product is even officially announced, but, that speculation is about as useful as a 3090 pre-order. (Sorry, Manni, too soon? :D) AMD has a history of being long on hype and short on delivery when it comes to GPUs. Not that you have a choice anyway, but, wait til launch and see what the reality is. We know that nVidia hyped a few things and glossed over others with their launch. It's likely AMD will do the same so until they get into hot little hands of trusted reviewers and not shills, the jury will be out. IMO, the jury's still out on nVidia, as well, because they've yet to launch the Ampere. LOL

[Manni]

No, not too soon, I couldn't care less. It was worth a try, wasn't it? :)

[SamuriHL]

You aren't going to like this latest rumor either....

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-allegedly-cancels-geforce-rtx-3080-20gb-and-rtx-3070-16gb

Come on, nVidia, get your S*** together!

[Manni]

You aren't going to like this latest rumor either....

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-allegedly-cancels-geforce-rtx-3080-20gb-and-rtx-3070-16gb

Come on, nVidia, get your S*** together!

Thanks.

No, not really, I was just thinking of going back to my initial 3090 plan, but a different model, most likely the Asus 3090 TUF OC as I like the idea of the “silent” bios option and the two HDMI outputs.

[Asmodian]

They don't really have the chips to put in extra SKUs anyway. :p

[nevcairiel]

A rumored cancelation of a rumored model? Maybe it never existed in the first place? :P
Or its simply being replaced by another SKU, perhaps Super models on TSMC 7nm are coming earlier then expected.

Nothing was ever set in stone on those, so plans changing is not that unexpected.

[SamuriHL]

I don't particularly care about unannounced rumored cards. But nVidia CLAIMS they've actually launched Ampere, but, I've yet to actually find anyone who can confirm such wild speculation on nVidia's part. :D

[videoh]

But nVidia CLAIMS they've actually launched Ampere, but, I've yet to actually find anyone who can confirm such wild speculation on nVidia's part. Help me out. What exactly are you trying to say? You think reviews like the following are just invented with non-existent cards and silicon? Or are you being cute? If you mean they are hard to get your hands on, that is not the same as having not launched.

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-ampere-gpu-review

[SamuriHL]

Good lord, it's a joke. Mostly. Obviously a handful of reviewers got their hands on actual hardware. But if no real people can buy it, can you call that a launch? Really? When the biggest stores are getting at most a couple dozen a week, that can hardly be called a launch.

[Cineaste]

Help me out. What exactly are you trying to say? You think reviews like the following are just invented with non-existent cards and silicon? Or are you being cute? If you mean they are hard to get your hands on, that is not the same as having not launched.

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-ampere-gpu-review

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/992/401/e37.png

[Alexkral]

Not sure, I've seen some very expensive RTX 3080 drawings on ebay. :D

[SamuriHL]

Touche!!! :D LOL!!!!

[videoh]

When y'all grow up you'll know what real humor is. Praying for you.

[SamuriHL]

There's really no need to take offense just because we're having a little fun with nVidia. It's clear even they can screw up. It is what it is and sometime next year we'll be able to actually find cards. Until then, I think they deserve a verbal lashing for this. Their claim of "oh, WOW, we didn't realize that releasing these cards at a decent price with so much performance would really have such high demand" is rather ludicrous would you not agree? In the end all we can do is wait. And maybe this has opened a door for AMD...and maybe not. We will see once they launch.

[videoh]

You invent words and put them in their mouth, call it ludicrous, and then ask if I agree. What a silly game you are playing.

[huhn]

so ok. what we heard is that supply was present not the highest ever supply and clearly not the lowest ever supply. so they tried a normal launch and failed miserable. to bad looks like they can print money now by producing as many as possible.

7nm rumour...
TSMC 7 nm is currently used for the consoles those things that are sold out before the release. there are different 7nm nodes so that a thing but still demand is heavy for now.
does this mean there will be no 7 nm ampare GPU?

so how do you produce more smasung "nvidia" 8nm GPUs you can not really do that it takes years to build a new fab the current one has to do.
but you could for examples make the new smaller GPU with a different node like let's say 7nm TSMC? by hoping it's demand get'S lower thanks to 5nm for smartphones. which could happen in 3-6 month but unlikely in the next months. a super card is possible to but that may stop customer form buy Samsung 8 nm cards and you don't want that yet.

[SamuriHL]

Omg uh yeah totally just made it up. Lol

said Huang, "The demand issue is that it is much much greater than we expected - and we expected really a lot."

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

I don't think that they will have a problem selling 8nm samsung chips if they can get them out the door. I think you are quite correct that the supply is going to be very low until February or March next year. I don't see them switching to 7nm tmsc until the super refresh but that's only an opinion. No one really knows for sure what they plan at the moment. Even the rumors get rumors now. Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

they could stop/not start making mid to low end GPU using smasung so they can make more GA102/GA104.

[SamuriHL]

That's an interesting thought. Switch the 3090 and 3080 to 7nm, potentially increasing the oc potential a little bit in the process, and save the samsung 8nm for lower tier gpus. Hmm I could totally see that.

Edit or are you saying the reverse? Keep the high end on samsung and do lower tier on tsmc?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[huhn]

low end on TSMC to not confuse the customer.
you can release the lower end cards later and just keep pushing GA102/104 for now.

[SamuriHL]

That makes sense and would allow them greater yields in theory by spitting it between two factories. I like that idea. Maybe that'll become reality.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[NikosD]

nVidia is the new Intel.

And you all know the reason for this mess.

It's only three letters...

[pirlouy]

ARM indeed.

[NikosD]

Exactly...AMD is ARMed more than ever for both of them.

An unforgettable Red October.

BTW, nVidia is not going to close the deal with ARM. Ever.

[Cineaste]

Do they only sell AMD in Greece? And what's with Red October? So dramatic...

[videoh]

AMD is team red and nVidia is team green. Nothing wrong with a little drama, IMHO.

[NikosD]

AMD is the number one company in sales regarding CPUs in Germany.

Take a look for example at the sales of mindfactory.de.

But in general the DIY market/ community belongs to AMD regarding CPUs, take a look of the best sellers CPUs at amazon.com.

Before the end of this year, AMD is going to get a huge sales boost regarding GPUs as well, probably as the best seller products like CPUs.

[Cineaste]

I'm German.

What you said had me intrigued so I did some research and found this:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/197681/umfrage/marktanteile-am-absatz-von-grafikkarten-weltweit-seit-dem-3-quartal-2010/

As you can see, Nvidia vs AMD market share in Q1 2020 was 78% vs 22% (GPU only). For AMD to become the new bestseller they have a LONG way to go. In fact, they haven't been close since 2010...

Disclaimer: My favourite colour is red so no bias there!

[NikosD]

What you said intrigued me to find some relative comment

Today looks like a rainy day in Berlin but the next few days is going to be with clouds but no rain probably

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/germany/berlin/ext

[huhn]

DIY is only a small part of the PC industry up to this day intel has problems meeting demand they sell this well and they lost production thanks to there on going problems with 10 nm.

it's just biased reporting. the laptop market is heavily intel dominated too the relative bad AMD iGPU clearly don't help they still use vega...


this show a heavy trend in getting AMD instead of intel for gaming: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/processormfg/

you are usually totally fine with 4 year old CPU in the game space this takes quite some time to change even more drastically.

[NikosD]

Laptop and server market is OEM market where Intel bribes heavily people in decision making positions.

Intel has a huge budget for bribing revealed in a slide of their presentation as marketing budget.

Vega GPUs are totally fine for laptop APUs and have nothing to do with laptop sales.

After Renoir CPU for laptops, AMD has increased their sales dramatically even in this sector.

Server market is more difficult, but after Milan Zen 3 based CPUs, AMD could finally overcome 10% that had with Rome Zen 2 based server CPUs.

https://phonemantra.com/intel-pays-pc-makers-again-not-to-use-amd-processors/

[Cineaste]

Laptop and server market is OEM market where Intel bribes heavily people in decision making positions.

Where is your evidence? Do you know someone in a position-making position who was bribed? No?

Moving on.

[NikosD]

Where is your evidence? I see, there is none.

Moving on. You must be very new to hardware business if you really didn't know that Intel has paid billions to recover from its malpractices:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-with-1-45-billion-fine-in-europe-for-unfair-and-damaging-practices-against-amd

Of course Intel has earned a lot more billions from its malpractices than the fines that paid to AMDThe EU found, in part:

That Intel paid rebates to manufacturers on the condition that they would buy all (Dell) or nearly all of their CPUs from Intel.

That it paid retail stores rebates to only stock x86 parts.

That it paid computer manufacturers to halt or delay the launch of AMD hardware, including Dell, Acer, Lenovo, and NEC.

That it restricted sales of AMD CPUs based on business segment and market.

OEMs were given permission to sell higher percentages of AMD desktop chips, but were required to buy up to 95% of business processors from Intel.

At least one manufacturer was forbidden to sell AMD notebook chips at all.

Intel then further restricted manufacturer sales by only allowing the 5% of business systems to be sold to small and medium enterprises, only via direct distribution, and only if the business distributor pushed back the launch a further six months.

[huhn]

the fact AMD never bothered to upgrade iGPU to NAVI is a problem and shows a clear lack of dedication and just selling them the old stuff is not seen in a great light even intel updates there "terrible" iGPU more often.

it literally took 1 year to get a NAVI dGPU in a laptop...
the 5700 is already EOL.

[Cineaste]

You must be very new to hardware business if you really didn't know that Intel has paid billions to recover from its malpractices

Mate, that article is 6 years old. I want to see recent evidence that supports your claim. Don't cling on to the past if you want to make a point about the present. It invalidates your entire argument.

[NikosD]

Mate, that article is 6 years old. I want to see recent evidence that supports your claim. Don't cling on to the past if you want to make a point about the present. It invalidates your entire argument. Said someone who is posting graphics card sales data from 2010 to make a point of CPU sales of 2020...

[Cineaste]

Said someone who is posting graphics card sales data from 2010 to make a point of CPU sales of 2020...

I literally said Q1 2020 and specifically mentioned GPU sales (not CPU) - please read again and educate yourself.

It just so happens that the graph contains sales data all the way from 2010 to 2020, which is why I brought it up. I would not have bothered if recent data was not included, unlike you with your 6-year old article.

You seem overly defensive.

[NikosD]

You brought GPU sales in the discussion when I was talking about CPU sales.

And you insist on this thing.

And you insist on Intel not bribing and not using malpractices.

You seem overly manipulative.

[Cineaste]

You brought GPU sales in the discussion when I was talking about CPU sales.

Christ, perhaps read your own posts before making assumptions:

Before the end of this year, AMD is going to get a huge sales boost regarding GPUs as well, probably as the best seller products like CPUs.

That's what you said, no? Clearly you compared the sales potential of GPUs to CPUs.

I then invalidated your argument by referring to historic sales data between 2010 and 2020, which paints a clear picture.

As for Intel, I don't insist on anything. I merely asked you to provide evidence to support your claim, and you are seemingly unable to produce anything other than an article from 6 years ago.

Anyway, I'll leave it here since you seem to just contradict yourself.

[chros]

A rumored cancelation of a rumored model? Maybe it never existed in the first place? :P
:D

7nm rumour...
...
so how do you produce more smasung "nvidia" 8nm GPUs you can not really do that it takes years to build a new fab the current one has to do.
You have a valid point here, but nvidia already has an Ampere TSMC 7nm card: A100 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/15801/nvidia-announces-ampere-architecture-and-a100-products) !

7nm rumour...
TSMC 7 nm is currently used for the consoles those things that are sold out before the release. there are different 7nm nodes so that a thing but still demand is heavy for now.
does this mean there will be no 7 nm ampare GPU?

low end on TSMC to not confuse the customer.
you can release the lower end cards later and just keep pushing GA102/104 for now.
Then why cancelling 16/20GB of cards??? (If this rumor is true at all.)
That would be the weirdest step they can (could?) make: it just doesn't make any sense.
The only explanation I can think of is:

Or its simply being replaced by another SKU, perhaps Super models on TSMC 7nm are coming earlier then expected.
Or maybe bringing Hopper sooner, e.g. a year later from now? :)

I think they screwed up this release very badly with memory configuration! They could have sold every other shite attribute (high power consumption, bad performance scaling, etc) but not these memory configs...
That's how they wanted to segment the market, because with DLSS any mid range GPUs can do 4k otherwise :) So, how to limit 3070/3060 sales to only 1440p or 1080p gamers? Give them 8/6GB of memory (at a very high price)!
But giving only 6/8GB 4 years later???!!! wtf?! Consoles have 16, AMD will have 16/12GB!
This way it's not competition but would be a massacre :D

nvidia well deserves this, with its bullshit marketing (er... propaganda :) ) and shite, overpriced products.
Lastly, Jim's newer video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s23GvbQfyLA) about the "Titan class" 3090 :D , very educational ... (huhn, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like him :) )

[Cineaste]

It is worth noting that consoles' 16GB are not comparable to GPU VRAM since they run on APUs (i.e. shared memory pool across GPU and CPU). So you're not getting a dedicated 16GB VRAM.

[chros]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)

[Cineaste]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)

A lot more from the looks of it :(

Digital Foundry has been handed an internal PS4 document by a “well-placed development source,” which states the system reserves 3.5GB of its 8GB GDDR5 memory for the operating system, which would leave around 4.5GB of space for game code.

Over 43% reserved for the OS! And that's just the PS4. God knows how much is locked away for the new consoles' many features.

[NikosD]

@Cineaste
It is very well known that AMD sells both CPUs and GPUs.

So in order to reply to your answer if in Greece there is only AMD to sell its products I replied in two parts in the same comment.

The first part of my comment was for mindfactory.de CPU sales which have broken every record possible for the last many months (few years)

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/73040/mindfactory-data-amd-is-outselling-and-smashing-intel-87-to-just-13/index.html

So, Germans buy a ton of AMD CPUs

I said the same for amazon.com best cpu sellers

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Computers-Accessories-Computer-CPU-Processors/zgbs/pc/229189

So, Americans buy a ton of AMD CPUs

Are we OK up to here ?

Then, in order to fullfil your desire for a complete answer of all AMD products I added the second part of my comment regarding a GPU sales boost towards the end of the year, obviously due to the marvelous RDNA2 architecture and a lot better (hopefully) availability of RX 6000 series cards compared to 308/3090 non existent availability.

Two different kind of AMD products two different parts of the same comment.

Are we OK now ?

As you can understand it's the last time I reply to such tricky and out of the context comments by you.

[huhn]

Then why cancelling 16/20GB of cards??? (If this rumor is true at all.)
That would be the weirdest step they can (could?) make: it just doesn't make any sense.

so it makes sense to you to sell a new product with double the RAM while a lot of customer are still waiting for the 10 GB version with the same chip on it? it's insane to even think about releasing a 20 GB version until they delivered there orders that would be such an insult to there customer...

not here to start rumours just listing possible solution to the current situation.

I think they screwed up this release very badly with memory configuration! They could have sold every other shite attribute (high power consumption, bad performance scaling, etc) but not these memory configs...
That's how they wanted to segment the market, because with DLSS any mid range GPUs can do 4k otherwise :) So, how to limit 3070/3060 sales to only 1440p or 1080p gamers? Give them 8/6GB of memory (at a very high price)!
But giving only 6/8GB 4 years later???!!! wtf?! Consoles have 16, AMD will have 16/12GB!
This way it's not competition but would be a massacre :D
DDR6x has low availability. and please sit back a sec and think things to an end.
the consoles have >shared< 16GB momey not 16 GB Vram so
you have 8 GB ram in your system and a 8 GB Vram GPU you are already in a similar space as the new consoles but hey that JIM guy just ignores these facts... because it counds so cool if a consoel has more Vram then your new high end GPU...
BTW 16 GB ram is considered base line as PC gaming and there is only one game that needs a lot of Vram and that's doom eternal and good luck seeing a difference between that setting and one lower.
nvidia well deserves this, with its bullshit marketing (er... propaganda :) ) and shite, overpriced products.
Lastly, Jim's newer video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s23GvbQfyLA) about the "Titan class" 3090 :D , very educational ... (huhn, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like him :) )

learn...
yeah just let him compare stuff he likes more so he get'S the biggest difference on his graphs without taking any easy accessible data into account like the series is part of one card... and then let him call the entire series "bad" such a joke...
just keep going and compare over price flagship cards very fair comparison don't take into consideration what AMD was doing at the time there is no need for that people could learn something from that but the number would be so "amazing" and it would be good content not but "you believe what nvidia said" followed by "the 3090 is the flagship..." quoted from nvidia...

the 3090 is a joke if you don't need the memory don't get it.

video: "You're Being Misled" you have something every in common with these companies.

[NikosD]

3080 is strictly a 4K gaming card, not less.

10GB of VRAM is the bare minimum for nowadays gaming at 4K and using Borderlands 3 with RayTracing you already need more than 10GB of VRAM for highest settings.

For next-gen gaming at 4K, it could be possible that 10GB will not be enough.

A future proof card for the next two years until the new architecture comes, should have more than 10GB of VRAM for 4K.

[NikosD]

Big Navi is freaking fast.

Even 6800 XT is beating 3080 in 3DMark.

nVidia lost the battle.

Game Over.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-6800xt-alleged-3dmark-scores-hit-the-web

[el Filou]

Yes, that's true, but how much does the OS need? 1 / 2 GB? :)Cineaste already replied that the OS in consoles need more than that, but also don't forget there are other data than just graphics, and games still need them in system RAM.

[NikosD]

nVidia is falling apart.

After the cancellation of 3080 20GB and 3070 16GB the AIBs are really pissed off.

After the non existent availability of 3080/3090 cards, the gamers/ clients are pissed off.

nVidia right now wants to take back the whole release of Ampere cards, but it's too late.

They have released the goddamned cards!

Oh Red October...What you have done to poor Intel and poor nVidia.

https://youtu.be/VWAzm-DUcM4

[NikosD]

But there are others who think differently and don't believe in all this hype.

Jarred Walton from Tom's Hardware, a site which has become a part of recent history while reviewing nVidia GPUs with the unforgettable "Just Buy It: Why Nvidia RTX GPUs Are Worth the Money" says that "Fake Rumors Suck: Will the Real RX 6000 Please Stand Up?"

Regarding the performance teaser of RX 6000 card in Ryzen 5000 announcement he believes Regarding that last point, one take (my take) is AMD would show its highest-performance option, meaning the RX 6900 XT

He also likes to remind us about Fiji architecture back in 2015 which lost the battle from the last minute reveal of 980 Ti and RX Vega 64 which stayed behind from 1080 Ti.

But he seems to forget (?) that for Ampere architecture, the 3080 is the 980 Ti and the 1080 Ti of the past and the fastest version of the same die is 3090, only 10% faster in games.

There are no other rabbits for nVidia to pull out of the hat.

Jarred Walton from Tom's Hardware is wrong. AMD didn't show 6900 XT but 6800 XT with one month older than final drivers (my take)

6800 XT trade blows with 3800 (it's faster in more games than it's slower) and 6900 XT...well...we 'll see...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/fake-rumors-suck-will-the-real-rx-6000-please-stand-up

[NoTechi]

Not sure if it belongs here but for those who are not aware of it it might be interesting.
In short marantz, denon and yamaha hdmi 2.1 implementation has a bug which can't be fixed by an software update. It causes a black screen under certain settings with new nvidia gpus and the upcoming xbox. PS5 is not affected. Will be interesting to see if new amd gpu are also affected.

Lots of German sites are informing about this bug atm but here is one in english (https://www.audioholics.com/news/bug-in-hdmi-2.1-chipsets) and here on avs forum (https://www.avforums.com/news/denon-marantz-and-yamaha-av-receivers-hit-by-hdmi-2-1-bug.18125).



NoTechi

[clsid]

Disabling GSync / VRR solves those AVR problems for some people.

[SamuriHL]

Sure, but, disabling GSync / VRR sucks. :) I get it....better than a black screen, but, damn new tech is a pain in the ass sometimes.

[NikosD]

YOU
Calling it, Nvidia has the crown for a long time yet. 16GB at near 3080 performance? DOUBT. Competitive prices? Yes @ 3070 levels and below. Nvidia is not worried in the slightest about Big Navi. I mean I tend to agree with the assertions that they'll be slightly faster than a 3070 but not near the 3080. Which is why, IMO, the leaked price is probably accurate. But we have nothing concrete so it IS just conjecture.
..And I maintain what I said...to compete with the 3080 it will need faster memory, not just gobs of slower memory. I have no doubt AMD is going to best the 3070 with their top end Big Navi card. But I have SERIOUS doubts about it reaching the 3080. That's just my opinion until we see some comparisons in the real world for both cards instead of paper specs, for which we don't even have on Big Navi yet. Everything right now is mere speculation and conjecture.All this guy has is rhetoric, insults, forlorn hopes, and sour grapes. I will pray for him.I don't think that AMD is much bothered by desktop GPUs. They have the console market now and that was an important step for them, that's where the money comes from (along with CPUs, datacenter products). The desktop market compared to the rest is mimimal.This is what Coreteks thinks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR70xbcwB6U) about RDNA2 GPUs. In short: big Navi will be only 3070 + 15% (with AMD preferred titles!) and won't be much more power efficient than Ampere.
(He also tries to answer my question above.)

Well, if that will be the case then only the pricing can save AMD from another disaster :)That's pretty much what I've been speculating this entire time. I think they beat the 3070 but fail to match the 3080. And they will be forced to lower prices before launch to compensate.

Sent from my SM-G975U using TapatalkYeah Nvidia was scared of big Navi [emoji23]:D I quote it for the future (I know you don't say it seriously).after your death prediction for nvidia by vega i can't wait for how this will turn out.You and me both. There's more hype on this thread than just about anywhere else on the internet.Could we at least wait until stuff is released and reviewed before going on and on about performance ?
https://www.techpowerup.com/273150/amd-big-navi-performance-claims-compared-to-tpus-own-benchmark-numbers-of-comparable-gpus
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/75367/if-these-new-amd-big-navi-leaks-are-true-the-rtx-3080-will-destroy-it/index.html
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-rtx-30-fine-wine-investigating-the-curious-case-of-missing-gaming-performance/
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/fake-rumors-suck-will-the-real-rx-6000-please-stand-up

ME
Just me.

[huhn]

did you see the price for the cards...

[NikosD]

6800 XL at 580$ with 16GB VRAM is a lot faster than 3070 at 500$ and 8GB VRAM.

6800 XT at 650$ with 16GB VRAM trade blows ( a little faster actually) with 3080 at 700$ with 10GB VRAM

6900 XT at 1000$ with 16GB VRAM using only 300W trade blows with 3090 at 1500$ with 24GB VRAM using 350W

Prices are perfect.

[huhn]

these are AMD claims. so yes they are competitive as expected NAVI was competitive too so nothing really changed people still in the total majority choice nvidia cards over AMD cards at that time in the same price range.

there is no killer deal to be made here. there is no hardware that "kills" nvidia. it's just a normal price battle. this is no zen 3 that's suppose to beat intel by a lot.

[ryrynz]

3 tests cherry picked tests and an article stating how much extra performance the 30 series has on tap in future [emoji6]
Better than expected but still premature. Not much of a RED OCTOBER aye [emoji23]
Ti's incoming.

[SamuriHL]

I'm all good. :) Hey, nVidia, how's about some cards now please? :)

[NikosD]

From guys saying that RDNA2 will be like Vega and that nVidia doesn't fear of Big Navi I would expect to be more humble.

But of course, nVidia fanatics like you couldn't react differently.

6900 XT is artificially limited to 300W by AMD for performance per watt ratio.

I expect custom designs to hit 350W and exceed even more 3090 performance.

6800 XT using 20W less is already a little faster than 3080.

It's the first time for AMD in the last many years to beat the highest flagship of the NEWEST architecture of nVidia released more or less at the same time with AMD.

Ampere release was a colossal event for tech journalists, beating 2080 TI about 45% (3090 card)
RDNA2 release showed us that AMD covered that difference and managed to overcome it a little.

99% of nVidia fanatics of this forum didn't expect AMD to beat 3070 and 100% of nVidia fanatics didn't want to beat even 3070.

We only saw reference cards, when we see custom 6800 XT and 6900 XT cards with 350W TDP the difference from 3080 and 3090 will be even bigger.

RDNA2 architecture using a 256bit bus with Infinity Cache is the most advanced GPU architecture in the world with the best efficiency and performance per power ratio for the first time in decades, along with the best absolute performance.

The market share or RX 6000 series is going to be HUGE.

And yes this October is RED as AMD has the fastest CPU and fastest GPU for the first time in history, as I said so.

[nussman]

AMD uses cheats like „smart access memory“ for its benchmarks? :D

[NikosD]

SAM was used in 6800 and 6900 XT benchmarks but not in 6800 XT.

It's not a cheat, it's a trick to buy an RX 6000 series GPU if you buy a Ryzen 5000 series CPU.
A clever trick as an added bonus performance.

The 450W TDP new BIOS of nVidia cards like 3080 EVGA and ASUS look like cheats a lot more.

I'm waiting for custom RX 6000 cards benchmarks using Intel and AMD processors, but I had already decided to buy a Ryzen 5000 series CPU before SAM.

Clocks, TDP and performance of custom RX 6000 series will be higher than these charts shown by AMD for reference cards, in any case.

[SamuriHL]

I take issue with your comment that most of us said AMD wouldn't beat the 3070. That's nonsense. I speculated (because that's ALL any of it was) that they would come in between the 3070 and the 3080. They manage to beat the 3080 in some areas and not in others. It's a competitive card. To say I'm unhappy about that is ludicrous. I want them to succeed as do everyone else. That's because it'll put pressure on nVidia to lower prices, bring out better cards, and be competitive. This benefits everyone. But this idea you have that AMD just killed nVidia, um, ok. If you say so. There's still a lot of unknowns that'll get cleared up once reviewers get their hands on these cards.

[chros]

The good things: amd is back (rasterization), 16gb vram
The bad: price, power consumption (on a better node), and who knows what else (raytracing performance?)

I guess we won't see big nvidia refresh this year...
I'm not impressed by any of these new gen cards, neither from amd nor nvidia. Next time hopefully will be more interesting.

[Cineaste]

Also worth pointing out that currently AMD have got no response to DLSS 2.0 which is a game changer. Let's hope they are working on something similar.

[chros]

I didn't mention it, because personally I think it's cheating in gaming graphics :)

[videoh]

DLSS 2.0 which is a game changer Just curious, why do you see it as a game changer?

[Cineaste]

Just curious, why do you see it as a game changer?

Compared to gen 1 DLSS 2.0 offers an image quality that is near indistinguishable to native 4K whilst providing a massive performance uplift.

It's pretty much required if you intend to play demanding games such as Cyberpunk with ray tracing and high quality settings on a 4K display.

[ryrynz]

Just curious, why do you see it as a game changer?

Because of the resolution it provides at the performance level it offers.

AMD Smart Access Memory looks quite nice, free extra performance out of the box with a Ryzen 5000 CPU and B550/X570 motherboard. Have been expecting something like this for a while.

Many months of software developments and analysis to go yet but what I've seen looks encouraging, at the very least there's proper competition again but it's certainly no home run.

[ryrynz]

AMD wins in ALL cases 3080 and trade blows 3090 using 6900 XT


That remains to be seen, there is a lot of things to test and real world benchmarking to be done.. Calm yourself.

[huhn]

DLSS is pretty irrelevant how can a feature be a game changer when it is barely support by anything.

[Cineaste]

DLSS is pretty irrelevant how can a feature be a game changer when it is barely support by anything.

The technology is a game changer, adoption rate will come. Give it time.

Plus, we only really need it for the more demanding titles such as Cyberpunk.

[huhn]

where and what you need is unrelated to this the majority of user have mid range cards not high end and DLSS doesn't even work with 16 series cards where it would be a far better feature.

the recommended system requirements is a 1060 for cyberpunk...

[Cineaste]

What GPU the majority of users have is irrelevant. These are enthusiast forums where people happily spend a couple grand to boost madVR performance.

For these people DLSS is an important tool to gain more frames.

As for Cyberpunk, that's not the 4K ray tracing specs obviously.

[SamuriHL]

Woa. Hold the fort there. DLSS is not useful to madvr. Maybe some day madshi looks at it and determines whether an algorithm could be made to use it and if that's even desired but right now... Completely useless for the htpc crowd.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Cineaste]

I was alluding to people buying a 3090 purely for madVR.

DLSS is a nice bonus for gaming.

[ryrynz]

Some will do that.

Around 40-50% of AMD's uplift is due to their big f off 128MB cache. Wonder what nvidia will do at 5nm with Hopper and if they can get similar improvements upgrading their cache from 40MB to 128, we'll find out next year.

[Manni]

Just got a shipping confirmation for my Zotac 3090 Trinity, so it looks like it's happening. :)

I'll update the thread as soon as I can confirm what's working and what's not and which driver works best, especially for madVR / video use.

I plan to upgrade just the GPU in my existing rig first, then I'll upgrade the rest of the build when I get my 5950X (new build), hopefully in the next couple of weeks (I managed to get a pre-order on launch day).

Yes, when I found out that Rocket Lake will be limited to 8 cores and that new MBs might not be here right away, I decided to give AMD a try, as Zen 3 looks like it's going to be significantly ahead for a while, especially for my video editing / converting needs, which is the main reason why I went for the 3090 as well.

I found a mobo with TB3 (ASRock X570 Creator), which will do for now. The main benefits from TB4 for my use are more PCI lanes dedicated to the GPU (I think four instead of 2 but I could be wrong), the ability to daisy chain host (for example you could connect an e-GPU to a dock) and WOL from USB (ie mouse or KB connected to a dock will wake up the laptop/PC), so I can live without that for now as I'm not going to use the e-gpu that much. I guess I'll wait for PCI 5.0 to get this and decide if I stay with AMD or go back to Intel.

My laptop (MBP 13 2018) used to be my main rig, but I'm making my desktop my main rig as I'm not travelling as much due to COVID.

Not much time right now but I'll update the thread when I have more data.

[videoh]

Just got a shipping confirmation for my Zotac 3090 Trinity, so it looks like it's happening. I hate you with a purple passion. :p

[chros]

:) I wish you a problem free config, enjoy!