Display Calibration

[Damien147]

edit: oops,I misread your post.
I created a 3D LUT with default settings because I want bt.1886.For HDR I have to create one more SDR 3D LUT with tone curve in displaycal's 3D lut tab set to gamma 2.2.Right?
If yes then I go in madvr's calibration tab and put it in DCI-P3?

[huhn]

if you want a to use an SDR LUT for HDR you should create it with gamma 2.2.

if the source is DCI p3 then yes you put it in DCI p3.

[Damien147]

Oh,then I need Bt.2020.I am like that (https://imgur.com/a/I1Gwzpu) now with default displaycal settings and I need to add one SDR 3d lut with bt.2020,gamma 2.2 in madvr's calibration tab to conclude without changing anything else(?)

[huhn]

if you are using a HDR->SDR 3D LUT(and your screen clearly says you are) the SDR 3D LUT isn't used for HDR so you don't need a gamma 2.2 LUT and you don't "need" BT 2020 sdr 3D LUT.

[Damien147]

That's convenient.Was wondering that actually for the OSD(showing only one).Then I leave things as they are and I am ok.Thank you one more time for being helpful.

[Damien147]

Can anyone guide me how to adjust CMS using HCFR?
I mean when adjusting 2 point you put a test pattern and adjust offset,gain to match 100% rgb in HCFR.For CMS you put 75% test pattern and do what?

[Asmodian]

Be careful adjusting the display's CMS, they often do a very bad job. Make sure to run saturation sweeps of the primary and secondary colors before and after. You do not want curves in your saturation sweeps. I have never gotten good results from a display's CMS when adjusting primary or secondary colors. :(

The adjustment is similar to white point, adjust saturation, tint, and luminance to get the dE as low as possible. If you change them while watching HCFR you can see how each option moves the color.

[Damien147]

In TV's CMS I have r g b to adjust(samsung).I don't get the similar to white point.For example I've put the 75% red pattern and red is way off to reaching 100% if I remember well.
As I said in 2 point you adjust to match 100% rgb in HCFR,what do you do similarly for CMS?

[Asmodian]

Messing with the primaries is very unlikely to help anything, you can only lower the brightness or add the other colors. :(

In two point you don't adjust to 100% rgb for high and low. You adjust to 100% white and something like 30% white, don't you? If you use a 75% red pattern you need to match it to 75% red, did I misunderstood you?

[Damien147]

Messing with the primaries is very unlikely to help anything, you can only lower the brightness or add the other colors. :(
I've seen online that they adjust CMS when calibrating my TV and thought that I have to do it myself too.Do you suggest to leave it at auto?


In two point you don't adjust to 100% rgb for high and low. You adjust to 100% white and something like 30% white, don't you? If you use a 75% red pattern you need to match it to 75% red, did I misunderstood you?

Sorry,let me say it again.Yes,in 2 point you adjust to 100% white(if you have 10 point,if not 80%) and something like 30% gray.You open the 100% test pattern and adjust TV's RGB gain to match 100% of each r g b in HCFR.Then you open a 30% and do the same with offset.
To adjust primaries and secondaries I've read that you use 75% color.I open a 75% red pattern and then do what with CMS's RGB and HCFR?What am I looking for?

[Asmodian]

What options do you have when adjusting a primary color? I am not familiar with Sony's CMS and am not sure what you should do if you don't have saturation, tint, and luminance adjustments.

In HCFR you compare your 75% red to a 75% red and are looking for a low dE. Often luminance is the value that is most off. It is important to configure HCFR to use the real max brightness at 100% white as its reference when doing this.

[Damien147]

It's like this (https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/samsung/ku6300/ku6300-config-16-medium.jpg).Ok,I am looking for low dE but what do I do to achieve it?

[Asmodian]

Fiddle with R, G, and/or B. :p

Sorry but that really is it. Increasing G or B will reduce saturation and raise luminance, decreasing R will lower luminance and may or may not change other aspects. You do not have a lot of control when messing with the primaries so if you cannot get it any better after fiddling then I would conclude that it is as good as possible. I would probably leave G and B on 0 and R at 50 and use a 3DLUT to do gamut correction for madVR, unless I could get it very good and it did not mess up the saturation and grey scale sweeps. Using the TV's CMS to get the primaries or secondaries slightly more accurate often has a trade off that isn't worth it.

You will need to adjust the white point again if you do adjust the primaries.

[Damien147]

I googled and read various guides but no one explains it like grayscale for example.
What matters to me is PC mode and there everything went fine.Some options are missing but what I need is there.
About the primaries and secondaries that I asked now is for another mode that is for plain TV watching.So no 3dlut option for me.I don't truly care but why not calibrate it when you can?
I guess by your sayings it's no biggie but it would be nice if anyone knows and answers.Thanks.

[huhn]

there is no general answer to that it really depends on your device.

[Damien147]

You are right.I give up and if it happens and someone knows good.If not I am leaving it at auto and all good again,it's just for regular TV.Thanks guys.

[Siso]

Guys, can you recommend me some good software for creating 3dlut for madvr, I have error in the end of the calibration with displaycal...

[FranceBB]

Guys, can you recommend me some good software for creating 3dlut for madvr, I have error in the end of the calibration with displaycal...

I would definitely recommend LUTCalc made by Ben Turley.
You can find it here: https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html

Alternatively, if you have Davinci Resolve installed, you can use it to create new LUTs that best suit your needs.

[huhn]

did you even read his question?

@Siso
can you post the error message.
and what do you understand as the end of calibration?

what is the meter new meter may not work yet.

[Siso]

did you even read his question?

@Siso
can you post the error message.
and what do you understand as the end of calibration?

what is the meter new meter may not work yet.

I have this error rarely when I make a 3dlut for madvr. After almost 2 hrs of calibraiton with colormunki display.

WindowsError: [Error 32] The process cannot access the file because it is ?
? being used by another process
18:32:39,687 Warning - temporary file 'c:\users\****\appdata\local\temp\DisplayCAL- ?
? mfusjv\madVR 2020-01-13 16-55 S XYZLUT+MTX.ti3' could not be removed: ?
? [Windows Error 32] The process cannot access the file because it is being ?
? used by another process: c:\users****\appdata\local\temp\DisplayCAL- ?
? mfusjv\madVR 2020-01-13 16-55 S XYZLUT+MTX.ti3

[Asmodian]

I really like Calman Video Pro but it is stupidly expensive. I have not used the home versions, much more affordable and only for specific TVs but a good option if that is what you want to calibrate. Lightspace is also said to be a very good option but I haven't looked into it, also quite expensive.

DisplayCal + ArgyllCMS is what I would recommend unless you really want to start spending money. We can help debug your issues. :)

Do you have any non-ascii characters in your user name? How about something syncing those folders to the cloud?

[Siso]

I really like Calman Video Pro but it is stupidly expensive. I have not used the home versions, much more affordable and only for specific TVs but a good option if that is what you want to calibrate. Lightspace is also said to be a very good option but I haven't looked into it, also quite expensive.

DisplayCal + ArgyllCMS is what I would recommend unless you really want to start spending money. We can help debug your issues. :)

Do you have any non-ascii characters in your user name? How about something syncing those folders to the cloud?

I just put those * instead of my username.

[Asmodian]

Yeah, never mind about that question. It would fail every time if it was a character bothering it. :o

[huhn]

just do it step by step.

so don't create a 3D LUT just created readings first and then the 3D LUT and maybe it is better if you deleted the storage folder or try to save the next project in a different folder that is not a default windows folder.

there are so meany reasons for your error another instance didn't stop could even be the widows anti virus still checking this new file.

even if the error happens again the readings my exist already so you can create the 3D LUT from it.

[Siso]

just do it step by step.

so don't create a 3D LUT just created readings first and then the 3D LUT and maybe it is better if you deleted the storage folder or try to save the next project in a different folder that is not a default windows folder.

there are so meany reasons for your error another instance didn't stop could even be the widows anti virus still checking this new file.

even if the error happens again the readings my exist already so you can create the 3D LUT from it.

It says the file is in use by other process or program, I have this error very rarely. The folder with the calibration is not on the OS ssd, It may be my antivirus...nod32. I'll try to make the calibration first and unchek "create 3dlut after calibration" option. And to be sure I'll pause the protection of the antivirus.

[Siso]

Today I got the same error...

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ec/1a/LCAC9ZJK_t.png (http://imgbox.com/LCAC9ZJK)

Run displaycal as administrator, stopped the nod32 protection for 4 hours, I'm out of options...

The monitor is LG 34UC99-W

[huhn]

the problem is the temp folder not sure if this folder is changeable
but you already changed the "choose save path..."

again this error may not matter if you tell me when it happens you can just do the next step.

what so ever something is touching these files.

[Siso]

I got it fixed, it seems that one system process was locking the displaycal temp folder - the process werfault.exe, by using unlock software, I managed to get the calibration right this time. Thank you for the help guys.

[Siso]

In order to prevent black crush for windows calibration and madvr 3dlut (2.2 gamma for windows and 2.4 gamma for 3dlut with 100% black output offset gives me black clipping and crush), is it a good choice to enable black point compensation? This is for XYZ LUT+matrix the default profile in displaycal.

[huhn]

could be an issue with relative/absolute render intent and or gamma.

what do you understand as black crush?

[Siso]

could be an issue with relative/absolute render intent and or gamma.

what do you understand as black crush?

Being unable to see 17-18 in Black Clipping.mp4 test.

[huhn]

well that'S as straight forward as it get's shouldn't happen in general.

did you try measuring these patches?

[Siso]

well that'S as straight forward as it get's shouldn't happen in general.

did you try measuring these patches?

With relative gamma 2.4 and 40% black output offset I can see bar 17 barely flashing and 18 is visible. With 100% black output offset I can't see them at all.

[huhn]

what about absolute.

do you have black clipping without the 3d lut?

[Siso]

what about absolute.

do you have black clipping without the 3d lut?

Same thing with absolute, with absolute I can set 50% black output offset, anything above that is clipping the blacks. Same situation without the 3dlut.

[huhn]

try to fix the black clipping before you create 3d lut by using custom levels in madVR use a meter to verify.

i do this using a pure black png loaded in madVR but i haven't needed it in years.

and there was something related to gamma settings but i simply can't remember my current TV is perfect in this task.

[Siso]

try to fix the black clipping before you create 3d lut by using custom levels in madVR use a meter to verify.

i do this using a pure black png loaded in madVR but i haven't needed it in years.

and there was something related to gamma settings but i simply can't remember my current TV is perfect in this task.

Can I enable in the profile settings - enable black point compensation? Would that fix the black clipping?

[chros]

What TV is that?

[Siso]

What TV is that?

Monitor Dell AW3420DW.

[huhn]

Can I enable in the profile settings - enable black point compensation? Would that fix the black clipping?

i don't think so.
wive the custom levels a try.

[Siso]

i don't think so.
wive the custom levels a try.

Can you give me some examples?

[huhn]

https://abload.de/img/customlevel7ykmy.png

you load a black image and check the values with the interactive display adjustment in DisplayCAL.
you set the black level as high as possible before the displaycal or your eye notice a difference.
after that check it again with a black level test:
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
again loaded in madVR.
i don't use that flicker test anymore.

[Siso]

I'll try with the custom levels, also is using windowed overlay got something to do with the black clipping? Without the 3dlut I don't have the black clipping.

[huhn]

Same thing with absolute, with absolute I can set 50% black output offset, anything above that is clipping the blacks. Same situation without the 3dlut.

well you said that it is the same without a 3d LUT.

if it is not happening without a 3D LUT you are currently wasting your time. my instruction are only useful if it happens without 3D LUTs.

overlay is really a bit different WTW and BTB will not survive (i haven't check this in a long time)and it load windows calibration differently but you should use disable GPU ramp anyway if you are using windows wide calibration.

[Siso]

well you said that it is the same without a 3d LUT.

if it is not happening without a 3D LUT you are currently wasting your time. my instruction are only useful if it happens without 3D LUTs.

overlay is really a bit different WTW and BTB will not survive (i haven't check this in a long time)and it load windows calibration differently but you should use disable GPU ramp anyway if you are using windows wide calibration.

I'm sorry about the misinformation, huhn. I checked during daytime and it had light in my room, so I couldn't see properly without the 3dlut. I tested in a semi dark room, and the clipping is coming from the 3dlut with black output offset anything above 40-50%.

[huhn]

well i was more worried you will now waste your time with custom levels.

you may have to ask fhoech i'm not advanced enough in this part of calibration.

[Siso]

well i was more worried you will now waste your time with custom levels.

you may have to ask fhoech i'm not advanced enough in this part of calibration.

It's ok, I'll ask him. At least I know that the issue happens with the 3dlut.

[tp4tissue]

Monitor Dell AW3420DW.

This is an IPS, it's going to clip black dark detail, because the black level is too high.

So with IPS, you probably don't want to go above 60-80nits.

Because at ~1000:1 contrast, 60/1000 = 0.05nits. You push that too much higher, on bt1886 it'll look very grey and floaty, on gamma 2.4 pure power, it'll look more contrasty, but eat into the shadow detail because the base black is too bright @ 0.05+

IPS are not good monitors for movies. VA or Oled at the moment is significantly better.

You don't need to worry about black clipping on IPS, if you try to fix it it'll just look worse because you'd be pushing like bt1886

[tp4tissue]

To calibrate that monitor, FIRST, just do test measurements of the few modes it has.

Select default gamma 2.2 from the top drop box, go to verification, check simulation profile, check untouched, check bt709, check use simulation profile as monitor profile use the 51 patch checker.

Now run that, what you're looking for between these modes is a relatively flat 2.2gamma, and flat 6500k. if they're all really off, try some of the options in custom. This is for the grey balance section. Don't worry about the Delta E, this doesn't matter right now.

For Color, Look for a mode that's using its native gamut, so the color dots from the 51 patch should fill out much wider than the bt709 targets, the color overlap the blank circles by a wide margin.

Once you figure out which mode you can use, THEN under calibration select 6504k white point, leave tone curve to the 2.2g default, don't touch black point correction or black output offset. leave default. Set calibration speed to medium.

You can also post the different simulation reports you get, And we can tell you which mode to calibrate.

AFTER you finish the default 2.2 gamma calibration, install that profile to the monitor and from here on let the dispcal autoloader run, this works way better than all other loaders.

This will be your desktop profile.

Next select Madvr 709, you stay in the same monitor mode.

Under calibration, you now select white point 6504 as before, but under tone curve, select default gamma 2.2, then change that to 2.4, This will carve out a 2.4 curve, then use that curve to drive the madvr lut creation. This won't affect your monitor's profile, this part is only the creation process for 3dlut madvr.

Under 3D lut, leave everything default, EXCEPT, tone curve, select 2.2 relative, then change to 2.4 relative. leave other settings default.

Under render intent, you'll want to create 2 different 3dluts, 1 will be the absolute colorimetric w/ whit point scaling, this will bec reated by default,

After this process finishes, you'll uncheck "create 3dlut after profiling, then under rendering intent, switch it to preserve Saturation, this will be the second profile you create, you can create it without redoing the whole calibration, it will just use the measurement data from before.

For anime and movies that lack color, you can switch to the preserve saturation profile, because your monitor is default p3 gamut, and it will look more colorful.

For slice of life movies, switch to the absolute colori wwps,

Don't use the install option for the 3dlut, just go into madvr and do that manually.

[tp4tissue]

do not use custom levels, do not use black clipping tests. you don't need them. displaycal takes care of all of that during the calibration phase, then it enters profile phase.