Display Calibration

[Arm3nian]

Continuing from the other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128&page=23)

As already mentioned, the Spyder 4 can't correctly read black level, or at least reads it in a fashion that is not a standard.

The i1 display pro reads it correctly.

Calibrating with dispcalgui, I set a brightness of 120 cd/m^2, white point of 6500k. End result is somewhere around 6456k, okay, not that big of a deal.

Adjusting RGB sliders around, (most annoying task in the world), I get an average delta E of 0.2. Perfect. After applying the profile, I calibrate again just to see the level. Obviously starting a new calibration temporarily removes and previous profile. With the same monitor settings, now my delta is 0.6... Measuring the delta E with HCFR, my delta E of red for example is 3.2, and average of 2.12. Seriously, wtf?

I don't understand how there is zero consistency between measurements.

The i1 software is fairly bad, and the spyder's is worse. I'm not paying for commercial trash either. So the only thing left is the argyII stuff. Too bad there are basically no guides on anything about it. The dispcalgui wiki doesn't actually tell you what to set, just tells you what each option does. Not very useful if you don't have a Ph.D in the physics of color. All other guides are about something else completely or outdated by 5 years. Same goes HCFR.

What kind of piss poor operation is being run here? The entire color calibration business at this point seems like complete BS to me. Luckily I can still return everything I bought, and I'm fairly close to doing so.

tl;dr: Not impressed by high end displays or calibration techniques. Same result, or worse. Waste of $ and time.

[Asmodian]

Do not target a brightness with the calibration at all, do you have it at ~450cd/m^2 native but are targeting 120 cd/m^2 with the calibration? That would be very bad.

I agree the i1Profiler isn't that great. It is quite important to set the right settings or a calibration can be a lot worse than nothing. I suggest using i1Profiler or dispcal to set your brightness and RGB sliders before calibration using only your monitor's controls.

I use this, it targets the native white point and brightness. Native is optimal for anything but professional color work as long as they are already close to correct.
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispcal" -v -dmadvr -qh -ye -G2.4 -f0 -k0 -O "[NAME] matrix" -o "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\targen" -v -d3 -G -e8 -B8 -s40 -g128 -f1800 -c "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispread" -v -dmadvr -ye -K "[NAME].cal" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\colprof" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.1886" -qh -aX "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\collink" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.709" -3m -qh -et -Et -IB -G -ims -a "[NAME].cal" Rec709.icm "[NAME].icm" "[NAME] BT.709.icm"

Replace [NAME] with whatever you want but all the [NAME] values should be the same name. It would even work as is but your profiles would have odd names and descriptions. ;)

The Argyll documentation tells you what everything means but please ask if you want to know why I picked any particular setting.

You need to set "-ye" in both the dispcal and the dispread line to your display's backlight type. "e" is white LED on my system.
edit: run "dispcal" without any options to get the list of letters for the backlight types on your system, this is selecting the spectral correction file for your display type.

Also make sure to enlarge the test pattern in the madVR TPG window, it starts very small, both for the dispcal and dispread steps.

The file "Rec709.icm" also needs to be copied into the same directory where you are running these, it is in Argyll's "ref" folder. In the last line, collink, you can use other reference files like "EBU2312_PAL.icm" for EBU/PAL or "SMPTE_RP145_NTSC.icm" for SMPTE C to generate a 3DLUT for other gamuts. I would also change the BT.709 in "[NAME] BT.709.icm" to match. BT.2020 and P3 do not work very well on a nominally sRGB display so I don't think those are useful in your case.

This generates several argyllcms files as well as:

"[NAME]_1.icm", a fast matrix profile - simple windows calibration only.
"[NAME.icm", a profile along with the windows calibration, photoshop and other color managed applications can use this for gamut conversations.
"[NAME] BT.709.icm", a profile that includes the 3DLUT to convert from BT.709 to the monitor. Not useful as far as I know.
"[NAME] BT.709.3dlut, the BT.709 3DLUT for madVR.

[chros]

I don't understand how there is zero consistency between measurements.
I'd be curious about this! If it's the case then it's indeed BS.
(I'm still hesitating whether to buy the 200 pounds value iDisplay Pro or not.)

[huhn]

a meter needs time to heat up and the display too.

so before you calibrated the meter should be an the screen for at least 30 mins and the screen should run at this time too.

i the correct correction loaded?

and most important windows icm profiles are low quality no matter what you do.

[XMonarchY]

For sure - meter does need to be heated up for at least 20-30 minutes and so does the monitor (20-30 minutes). It is also advised to use USB Hub for colorimeters and spectrometers because they need more power than normal USB 2.0/3.0 can provide to work @ their highest potential.

I also recommend dispcalGUI + ArgyllCMS 1.8.2 over using raw ArgyllCMS. DispcalGUI, at this point, is very stable and almost bug-less.

UNINSTALL i1Profiler and delete ALL ICC profiles for now!!! Not only that, but go through your Services and make sure X-Rite services are disabled, along with XRD service (gamma-related). Make sure there is nothing X-Rite related in StartUp either. i1Profiler tries to load ICC profiles upon your PC starting up and that can seriously mess up your calibration.

Use dispcalGUI Install (not stand-alone archive) and once you install and open it up, a menu window should up, asking you if you want dispcalGUI manage ICC profiles. Select "Yes, let dispcalGUI manage profiles".

Are you planning on GAMING on your PC a lot? In that case, there is no need for desktop calibration or ICC profiles. Instead, you should create a 3DLUT for ReShade Framework, which allows the use of such 3DLUT. You can now FULLY calibrate your display for gaming, including both - grayscale AND colorspace / color gamut calibration!

[Arm3nian]

Do not target a brightness with the calibration at all, do you have it at ~450cd/m^2 native but are targeting 120 cd/m^2 with the calibration? That would be very bad.

Well I'm targetting 120 cd/m^2 but I'm also using the dispaly controls to lower the brightness down to it. 450 cd/m^2 is blinding. I tried 140 but it was too bright in my poorly lit room. 120 is a bit low during the day since my display is facing a window. Hard to find a balance but I guess 120 will do.

I agree the i1Profiler isn't that great. It is quite important to set the right settings or a calibration can be a lot worse than nothing. I suggest using i1Profiler or dispcal to set your brightness and RGB sliders before calibration using only your monitor's controls.

Well when the "show advanced options" is unchecked there really isn't that much to configure. One thing I noticed is that dispcal reports my display as 2560x1440 instead of 3840x2160. I have 150% windows scaling on. I don't think that would have any effect though.

I have white level drift compensation on, but have tried it off, and I think on looks better. Black level drift compensation is off. Should I enable this? i1 is really fast so I don't think it slows things down by much. I have spectral: LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung) correction on, which is what my panel is. I target a color temperature of 6500k. The native is 6300k which is a bit off. Isn't one of the main points of calibration to get a correct white point? Tone curve is gamma 2.2 and speed is low. I use auto optimized 2681 patches and high profile quality. Verification is extended chart (51 patches).

When I try it with advanced options I have the black level as measured. Gamma 2.2 relative. Black output offset to 100% and black point correction to 0% and a rate of 4. See anything wrong here?


I use this, it targets the native white point and brightness. Native is optimal for anything but professional color work as long as they are already close to correct.
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispcal" -v -dmadvr -qh -ye -G2.4 -f0 -k0 -O "[NAME] matrix" -o "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\targen" -v -d3 -G -e8 -B8 -s40 -g128 -f1800 -c "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispread" -v -dmadvr -ye -K "[NAME].cal" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\colprof" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.1886" -qh -aX "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\collink" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.709" -3m -qh -et -Et -IB -G -ims -a "[NAME].cal" Rec709.icm "[NAME].icm" "[NAME] BT.709.icm"

Replace [NAME] with whatever you want but all the [NAME] values should be the same name. It would even work as is but your profiles would have odd names and descriptions. ;)

I'm not calibrating for madVR anymore since I have the new meter. Trying to get a decent system wide calibration before moving on to the 3D LUT. Rec. 1886 gamma 2.4 is what you're supposed to use right? Do you use absolute or relative? Also, when you have madVR selected, the calibration tab has a tone curve option and so does the 3d LUT tab. What should the tone curve in the calibration tab be set to? It is by default "as measured". Is this ignored?

The Argyll documentation tells you what everything means but please ask if you want to know why I picked any particular setting.


What is being changed when you adjust the RGB levels? Is it the white point (color temperature) or are you trying to minimize delta E? Or are both related to each other.

When I lower RGB levels, luminance goes down as expected. So it's kind of annoying to set it to 120cd/m^2, then after adjusting it goes down to 114... or if you have it to 124 and after adjusting it goes to 120. But then I get a delta E of .4 instead of .2.


I'd be curious about this! If it's the case then it's indeed BS.
(I'm still hesitating whether to buy the 200 pounds value iDisplay Pro or not.)
HCFR seems broken to me. Doesn't match spyder, i1 profiler, or dispcalgui. And dispcal is based on argyII just like HCFR.
a meter needs time to heat up and the display too.

so before you calibrated the meter should be an the screen for at least 30 mins and the screen should run at this time too.

i the correct correction loaded?

and most important windows icm profiles are low quality no matter what you do.

For sure - meter does need to be heated up for at least 20-30 minutes and so does the monitor (20-30 minutes). It is also advised to use USB Hub for colorimeters and spectrometers because they need more power than normal USB 2.0/3.0 can provide to work @ their highest potential.

I also recommend dispcalGUI + ArgyllCMS 1.8.2 over using raw ArgyllCMS. DispcalGUI, at this point, is very stable and almost bug-less.

UNINSTALL i1Profiler and delete ALL ICC profiles for now!!! Not only that, but go through your Services and make sure X-Rite services are disabled, along with XRD service (gamma-related). Make sure there is nothing X-Rite related in StartUp either. i1Profiler tries to load ICC profiles upon your PC starting up and that can seriously mess up your calibration.

Use dispcalGUI Install (not stand-alone archive) and once you install and open it up, a menu window should up, asking you if you want dispcalGUI manage ICC profiles. Select "Yes, let dispcalGUI manage profiles".

Are you planning on GAMING on your PC a lot? In that case, there is no need for desktop calibration or ICC profiles. Instead, you should create a 3DLUT for ReShade Framework, which allows the use of such 3DLUT. You can now FULLY calibrate your display for gaming, including both - grayscale AND colorspace / color gamut calibration!

Display is warmed up, so is meter. No USB or other software problems.

When I did make a 3D lut, my movies looked lifeless, like the color was drained. It looked like my 10 year old piece of crap TN panel. It was not at all enjoyable. Contrast ratio affects colors other than black but it shouldn't look this bad at 1050:1. Something is definitely wrong. I'll try again with the 3DLUT because it is easier to tell if the calibration succeeded. Testing windows profile is harder.

[Arm3nian]

I profiled and made a 3D lut following the AVS guide. I see no difference. Still looks like crap. Games look fine to me, without any calibration.

The low bitrate stream from cable going into the living room TV looks better than what I'm watching. This is really depressing.

[Asmodian]

Did you try my settings? The batch file I posted is for doing a normal calibration, only the last line is for creating the 3DLUT for madVR. Feel free to increase the patch count to 2681 if you want to (change the -f1800 to -f2681 in the targen line). I don't like the newer dispcalgui versions because I don't know what it is doing.

On my system HCFR matches perfectly with Argyllcms, they also use the same meter reading code. Are you using madTPG and the same spectral correction everywhere?

Changing the RGB sliders is to change the white point, which also changes dE measurements. Are you not able to get close to 6500K by only adjusting the RGB sliders? You do have to adjust brightness and the RGB sliders together, that is simply how it is. Any dE below 1 is quite good, simply moving the meter on the screen will often change a 0.2 dE to 0.4 or the other way around. Most displays aren't very uniform. :(

Don't use white or black point correction, that is mostly for Plasma, or at least not a warmed up LCD.

[Arm3nian]

Those settings are what I used when I tried again. It looks the same as before.

I'm going to return my display. I don't see a point in 4k anymore. Nothing scales correctly when windows is at 150% and if it isn't then you can't see anything on a 27inch. Originally I thought non integer scaling looks bad, but with madVR, it looks good. 1440->4k looks great with doubling. 1080->1440 should also look good. 10bit also isn't very useful since most of the time I'm doing things other than watching movies. I don't notice much banding on a true 8bit display.

Maybe I'll get the new ROG swift (pg279q). I'm convinced at this point that almost all IPS look the same. No point in paying $700 for my current display when I can get the same thing but gsync/ulmb and 165Hz refresh rate for almost the same price. I'll also probably return the i1. It looks the same as the spyder even though it can read black. Maybe I'll callibrate my new display before sending it back. :p

[Arm3nian]

Why didn't I think of this before... too busy arguing with smart asses on oc.net. Here are screenshots of no calibration vs 3D LUT.

Pics from the hobbit (imgur compression kind of killed quality but the color differences are still visible)
Group 1: normal (http://i.imgur.com/0h2HAJ8.jpg) vs 3D LUT (http://i.imgur.com/ONL1ph6.jpg)
Group 2: normal (http://i.imgur.com/MxC8THH.jpg) vs 3D LUT (http://i.imgur.com/pqYJ158.jpg)

The ones without the LUT look darker, I guess you could say saturated. Calibrated results look more natural? Seems a bit dull though. I tried some other sources and the same results.

[Asmodian]

I don't think you could have used my command lines to generate those images. Especially if you want an image more like un-calibrated you really should try them.

However, calibration can only remove total saturation. For example, the way you fix the white point with a calibration is by reducing the saturation of the two colors that are too saturated. This is why you don't target a white point unless it is off enough to bother you. Human vision adapts white anyway so minor errors are not a big deal, the loss of contrast looks worse. In the mid-range it is possible to add saturation and a good calibration can fix a bad gamma which can make the image seem higher contrast.

If you want a bit deeper/darker shadows try this:
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispcal" -v -dmadvr -qh -ye -G2.4 -f0.6 -k0 -O "PG278Q matrix" -o PG278Q_1.icm PG278Q
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\targen" -v -d3 -G -e8 -B8 -s40 -g128 -f2259 -c PG278Q_1.icm PG278Q
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispread" -v -dmadvr -ye -K PG278Q.cal PG278Q
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\colprof" -v -M "ROG Swift PG278Q" -D "PG278Q BT.1886" -qh -aX PG278Q
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\collink" -v -M "ROG Swift PG278Q" -D "PG278Q BT.709" -3m -qh -et -Et -IB:0.6:2.4 -G -ims -a PG278Q.cal Rec709.icm PG278Q.icm "PG278Q BT.709.icm"

[Arm3nian]

So targeting specific settings is only if you need it? The screenshots were with a targeted white point of 6500k, not the default, which is more around 6356k. I'll do it again when I have time.

[Asmodian]

So targeting specific settings is only if you need it? The screenshots were with a targeted white point of 6500k, not the default, which is more around 6356k. I'll do it again when I have time.

Monitor calibration methodology has been designed for matching different displays to each other and to print work, not to give the best viewing experience. What makes a good calibration for matching prints is not the same as what provides an optimal experience watching video.

I, and others who's screens I have calibrated, much prefer the calibration when not targeting a white point or (shudder) a brightness. Targeting a brightness with the calibration for viewing video is simply a bad idea. There is no way you can notice a small change in brightness but you reduce saturation on all colors in order to target a brightness, which reduces contrast too. The only way to reduce brightness with a calibration is to have the video card output 254 or less when the source pixel's value is 255, this requires lowering all values to avoid banding, reducing the dynamic range for no visible benefit.

White point calibration is more debatable. My view is that you should only target a white point if the current white has a color tint you do not like, and then only maybe. For almost all my calibrations on displays with a reasonable white point (~6200 to 6800K), targeting a white point does not improve my perception of white but it does make the image look more faded or washed out, like in your screen shots. Tuning with the RGB sliders on the display, with feedback from a meter, has always allowed me to get a good enough white point so I do not need to target one with the calibration. The sad part is that on displays with a really bad white point (e.g. >9000K) targeting a white point reduces contrast and saturation enough that most people have preferred not targeting a white point even in extreme cases. If blue can only use 0-217 and green 0-188 it reduces the saturation of all colors by a lot.

I have enough experience trying to notice display color accuracy that I do get bothered by white points too far from 6500K and I do prefer them calibrated to 6500K, even with the loss of contrast and saturation. I constantly notice the bad white instead of watching the video. :o

I have handled it by giving away or returning all my displays with bad white points, rather than calibrating them into a faded mess. :p

This may give the impression that I think calibrations are somewhat useless but the calibrated gamma curve is generally much better, as long as you do not get banding, and tuning the white point with the meter and the monitor's controls often helps a lot.

[Arm3nian]

Now I understand. So "as measured" simply uses what you set the white point and white level to be via monitor controls. And targeting a value means adjustments are made in software to get you where you couldn't with the monitor controls.
I thought that "as measured" meant it used the initial reading without adjustments and targeting meant it just brought up a value and told you if you were close or not... fail :o
I can get very close to 6500k and 120cd/m^2 with a delta E of 0.2-0.3 using the sliders.

I'm guessing as measured is recommended for system wide calibration as well? What should I use for the tone curve for a windows profile, gamma 2.2 or as measured (I set the settings to default (gamma 2.2) in the top)? I am not doing pro image work or printing, just want nice colors. I also don't use the advanced options as they seem to make things worse if you don't need it. Is auto-optimized 2681 patches good for windows?

[Asmodian]

Now I understand. So "as measured" simply uses what you set the white point and white level to be via monitor controls. And targeting a value means adjustments are made in software to get you where you couldn't with the monitor controls.
I thought that "as measured" meant it used the initial reading without adjustments and targeting meant it just brought up a value and told you if you were close or not... fail :o
I can get very close to 6500k and 120cd/m^2 with a delta E of 0.2-0.3 using the sliders.

I'm guessing as measured is recommended for system wide calibration as well? What should I use for the tone curve for a windows profile, gamma 2.2 or as measured (I set the settings to default (gamma 2.2) in the top)? I am not doing pro image work or printing, just want nice colors. I also don't use the advanced options as they seem to make things worse if you don't need it. Is auto-optimized 2681 patches good for windows?

Correct, what I do is start a calibration with a target white point, setup the monitor, and then cancel and restart using native/as measured.

Also definitely do the same for the normal system calibration, I would argue it is even more important to not limit saturation globally. For gamma I think 2.4 actual (-G2.4) or 2.2 effective (-g2.2) are both reasonable targets for a Windows calibration. I prefer actual but effective is better for matching displays with different black levels.

2681 patches is probably overkill to be honest, but the only reason to use fewer is if you get banding with too many (speed too, of course). :)

[markanini]

I curious if anyone here uses f.lux together with a display profile and/or MadVR 3DLUT. Sometimes I turn it off for color critical work but most of the time it's on and does a excellent job and reducing eye strain. So I've been concerned with what kind of implication this might have on image quality. The f.lux filtering seems to sit on top of both the 3dlut and display profile so I guess it's an overlay, which should allow a luma corrected filter. But how precise can it be when it's not aware of the specific display characteristics?

[Asmodian]

I curious if anyone here uses f.lux together with a display profile and/or MadVR 3DLUT. Sometimes I turn it off for color critical work but most of the time it's on and does a excellent job and reducing eye strain. So I've been concerned with what kind of implication this might have on image quality. The f.lux filtering seems to sit on top of both the 3dlut and display profile so I guess it's an overlay, which should allow a luma corrected filter. But how precise can it be when it's not aware of the specific display characteristics?

If you are using f.lux do not bother with any kind of calibration. f.lux is only for those who do not care about color accuracy; it completely destroys the dE values of any calibration.
edit: Actually f.lux on top of a calibration is probably better than without the calibration; f.lux does try to do a good job visually, even if it cannot be accurate, so it is still likely to look better after the calibration. However, it is especially important to not target a white point with the software calibration when using f.lux.

This is expected based on how it works; it is doing its own calibration without any understanding of the display, as you mentioned, and it is targeting reduced eye strain instead of color accuracy. It wants color accuracy to be bad, you cannot arbitrarily remove blue light and get accurate colors.

There have also been reports of f.lux interacting badly with madVR, causing dropped frames and/or choppiness.

I would do a normal calibration but targeting 5003K (illuminant D50, x0.34567, y0.35850) or maybe 5503K (D55, x0.33242, y0.34743) for the white point if I wanted a low blue light calibration. This might not be as low eye-strain as using f.lux on top of a calibration targeting 6503K (D65, x0.31271, y0.32902) but it would give accurate colors relative to white.

[Arm3nian]

I calibrated again using "as measured", but using targeted values and then cancelling before to get my desired levels. After setting levels, my color temperature was 6484K, white level was 119cd/m^2, and delta E was .1 to .3. After, measuring with HCFR, my color temperature went lower to 6450K, white level went up to 121cd/m^2, and delta E of white is 1. So not bad, but why is it worse than before calibrating? Contrast ratio is around 1126:1.

The individual delta E's are 3.4, 3.8 and 1.1 for RGB. Why are they so high? Do you get the same results?

Turning the profile on or off makes no changes in HCFR readings...
To compare subjectively, the calibration looks the same as before except a bit dimmer. It looks good, but the objective measurements are fishy.

Speaking about eye care, my display has an internal blue light filter that is set to 100 by default. How does this affect color accuracy?

[huhn]

do you use a correction and is HFCR using the SAME correction?

[Asmodian]

I calibrated again using "as measured", but using targeted values and then cancelling before to get my desired levels. After setting levels, my color temperature was 6484K, white level was 119cd/m^2, and delta E was .1 to .3. After, measuring with HCFR, my color temperature went lower to 6450K, white level went up to 121cd/m^2, and delta E of white is 1. So not bad, but why is it worse than before calibrating? Contrast ratio is around 1126:1.

In addition to what huhn asked, are you sure the meter is in exactly the same spot and the display has warmed up for a similar amount of time? Changes on that order are common when moving the meter, in my experience.

The individual delta E's are 3.4, 3.8 and 1.1 for RGB. Why are they so high? Do you get the same results?

This is perfectly normal, 100% Red, Green, and Blue are never correct on normal consumer displays. Apparently it is very hard to make white LEDs with exact primaries. Actually those are pretty good, I often see almost 5 dE on the worst primary. My current displays (both have pretty new white LED backlights) have basically the same error in the primaries you do.

Turning the profile on or off makes no changes in HCFR readings...
To compare subjectively, the calibration looks the same as before except a bit dimmer. It looks good, but the objective measurements are fishy.

Are you using madTPG with HCFR as well? Make sure you don't have it set to disable calibrations. Also make sure you are using the same spectral correction and don't move the meter between calibration and measuring with HCFR. Look at the gamma, that should have the biggest change when using native targets. Usually a native white point calibration is not an obvious change unless the native gamma is very bad.

Speaking about eye care, my display has an internal blue light filter that is set to 100 by default. How does this affect color accuracy?

I don't know, assuming it was on when you calibrated it sounds like it is fine, a max dE of 3.8 isn't bad. What is the dE for the cyan and magenta saturation measurements? What happens to the appearance and HCFR measurements with it off?

[chros]

I need your help about a used OEM i1 Display Pro device. What does it mean if it has a missing diffuser head? Can it be still used for calibrating?
Thanks

[foxyshadis]

I need your help about a used OEM i1 Display Pro device. What does it mean if it has a missing diffuser head? Can it be still used for calibrating?
Thanks

You should contact the company about errors like that: http://www.xrite.com/i1display-pro/Support

[Asmodian]

I need your help about a used OEM i1 Display Pro device. What does it mean if it has a missing diffuser head? Can it be still used for calibrating?
Thanks

I am not sure about the "head" part of diffuser head? If it is only the ambient light diffuser having it missing simply means you need to be more careful with the meter when not calibrating because it acts like a cover for the lens when not in use.

The diffuser is useful when calibrating against prints as you need to adjust for ambient lighting (prints look different in different light so your screen should too). However, for normal video watching, I have never liked the results when adjusting for ambient lighting.

I never use the diffuser when calibrating normal displays, only as a lens cover when I am done.

[markanini]

What about the difference between sRGB recommended chromaticity coordinates (0.3127x0.3290) and a straight 6500k?

[Asmodian]

What about the difference between sRGB recommended chromaticity coordinates (0.3127x0.3290) and a straight 6500k?

No one can see it. :)

Illuminant D65 is (0.31271x0.32902) so BT.709/sRGB is simply the values rounded to four decimal places. D65 is actually 6503.6K.

[chros]

The diffuser is useful when calibrating against prints as you need to adjust for ambient lighting (prints look different in different light so your screen should too). However, for normal video watching, I have never liked the results when adjusting for ambient lighting.

I never use the diffuser when calibrating normal displays, only as a lens cover when I am done.
Good news, thanks for the info! I'll get it one of the days and I'll play with it. (I also bought an i1pro , it'll take more time to get here.)
And I'm reading a lot in the meantime, though I feel more confused than I was at the beginning (but probably it's a good thing :) )

1. I want to calibrate my TV, it has 2 points/10 points IRE controls for grayscale calibration and a HLS CMS system for colors. Can I do this with Argyll/DispalGUI or HFCR as the 1st step (calibration)? I know you can set RGB values in DispalGUI but can you do such an advanced calibration as well? (I went through the grayscale/color calibration, but it uses ChromaPure for this: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322 )
2. In the above guide was said that it's a good practice to put the meter on a tripod even if you don't have projector. What do you think? (I'm asking because the CCFL S-IPS panel can heat up well in time.)
3. My TV crushes black, so I have to set custom levels in MadVR like this: black: 1,255 . (It's even worse with the laptop builtin LED blacklight panel, I have to set black to: 5,255 .) huhn said in the avs forum topic, that we should leave it in this way before calibration. Is it a good practice? (Since that would mean that we'll get inaccurate colors for the icm profile.)

Sorry for the silly questions, there'll be more later probably :)
Thanks

[markanini]

What's the purpose of the tripod? Just for eliminating ambient light from getting into the sensor? You could try it both ways regarding the black crush and see which gives you the lowest deltaE or the least banding on a gradients.

[huhn]

3. My TV crushes black, so I have to set custom levels in MadVR like this: black: 1,255 . (It's even worse with the laptop builtin LED blacklight panel, I have to set black to: 5,255 .) huhn said in the avs forum topic, that we should leave it in this way before calibration. Is it a good practice? (Since that would mean that we'll get inaccurate colors for the icm profile.)

only use this for 3D LUT calibration.

[chros]

So, first of all, thank you all for your suggestions. After fiddling around about 3 days with the i1DisplayPro (a new one, the i1Pro is still on its way), finally I reached the point where I can raise questions. :)
I mostly measured during evening/night so I settled down with just setting brightness(53), contrast(89), backlight(30), color gamut(bt.709), color temp (warm) and gamma (2.4) for now and leaving everything else on default (after resetting an ISF mode) (that means I didn't set any grayscale/CMS setting) and I left them at these settings until I'll be comfortable with the rest. I went for Asmodian's suggestion about leaving white point as it is (~6240K) and the resulted brightness is around 106 cd/m2. So far so good. I used the standard CCFL-IPS correction everywhere. I used blacklevel, apl-clipping, white-level, color-clipping mp4 videos from AVSHD to check these original values and to check the result at the end of every calibration/profiling.
The goal would be to get a good looking picture for now with the above setting and with 3dlut.
About the black crush of mine: I made all the measurements with the slightly raised black level (custom level: 1-255 in madvr) for the sake of simplicity.

1.
When did make a 3D lut, my movies looked lifeless, like the color was drained. It looked like my 10 year old piece of crap TN panel.
I figured out what is the problem with the default madvr preset of dispalGUI. I got the same result as you did, no matter what I did.
On the 3Dlut 'tab' at Rendering intent 'Absolute Colorimetric with white point scaling' is selected by default (this is '-iaw' switch for collink.exe) instead of Asmodian's '-ims' switch which would be the 'Saturation' settings in dispalGUI. (Argyll docs http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/collink.html#i)
- I have tried out couple of Absolute like intents (-iaw , -ia , -ir) and they behave the same way, resulting slight fog on top of the picture
- I tried out couple of other intents from the other group (-ims , -ip , -is) and, they behave differently, resulting NO fog at all
You can run manually the last step to fix your 3dlut by modifying the collink.exe command line from DispalGUI.

2.
Do not target a brightness with the calibration at all, do you have it at ~450cd/m^2 native but are targeting 120 cd/m^2 with the calibration? That would be very bad.
...
I use this, it targets the native white point and brightness. Native is optimal for anything but professional color work as long as they are already close to correct.
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispcal" -v -dmadvr -qh -ye -G2.4 -f0 -k0 -O "[NAME] matrix" -o "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\targen" -v -d3 -G -e8 -B8 -s40 -g128 -f1800 -c "[NAME]_1.icm" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\dispread" -v -dmadvr -ye -K "[NAME].cal" "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\colprof" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.1886" -qh -aX "[NAME]"
"C:\Argyllx64\bin\collink" -v -M "[NAME]" -D "[NAME] BT.709" -3m -qh -et -Et -IB -G -ims -a "[NAME].cal" Rec709.icm "[NAME].icm" "[NAME] BT.709.icm"
Thanks for your batch script! It help me a lot.
But unfortunately I got 2 problems with it (first has been fixed):
a) I got really nasty black levels: black-level (I could see 14-16 (!) bars) and white-clipping (the "nonvisible" part of the blacks were also flashing!) test was really bad with this! Log of DispalGUI helped me with this, if I use the "-b" switch of dispcal.exe (Use forced black point hack , http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/dispcal.html#bhack) in the first command then these nasty black levels are vanished! (DispalGUI also use this '-b' switch for the last command (collink.exe) but I coudn't see any difference with/without it.)
b) when looking at the black-level test (with the above modification), 17-19 bars are gone! All the rest of the bars looks natural and all the other test clips are looking good as well. Can it be that Francois76l was talking about the same thing? http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1747776#post1747776
I tried out the '-ims -IB:0.1:2.4' combination for "collink.exe" but there was no difference.
I have only this problem with your method, and since I originally using the raised balck levels in madvr it's clearly not good that the calibrated picture lacks of blacks. Any idea?

c) Can we verify somehow the result (like we can with dispalGUI method)?

3.
only use this for 3D LUT calibration.
I don't really know what this means. What part of the process do you mean?
a) with the above command line: do you mean the 3rd command (dispread.exe)? (there's another reading during the dispcal.exe command)
b) with dispalGUI the situation is pretty interesting, it uses different method: setting measured (as target) everywhere (the full log is here: http://pastebin.com/nPrEspS1 )
here are the commands (timecodes are included):
00:38:44,208 dispcal.exe -F "-P0.5,0.5,9.486833" -v2 -dmadvr -c1 -yn -X CCFLFamily_07Feb11.ccss -t -b "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
00:39:30,080 dispread.exe -F "-P0.5,0.5,9.486833" -v -dmadvr -c1 -yn -X CCFLFamily_07Feb11.ccss -K "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.cal" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
00:42:46,055 colprof.exe -v -qm -ax -bn "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"

00:42:59,679 targen.exe -v -d3 -e4 -s33 -g97 -m0 -f1399 -A1.0 -G -N0.5 -B4 -b0 -V1.6 -c "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.icm" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
00:43:50,631 dispread.exe -F "-P0.5,0.5,9.486833" -v -dmadvr -c1 -yn -X CCFLFamily_07Feb11.ccss -K "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.cal" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
01:10:04,398 colprof.exe -v -qh -ax -bl -C "No copyright. Created with dispcalGUI 3.0.5.0 and Argyll CMS 1.8.3" -M madVR -D "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"

01:11:12,024 iccgamut.exe -v -w -ir -ff -on -d6.00 "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.icm"
01:11:15,547 viewgam.exe -cw -t0 -w "C:\Users\chros\AppData\Local\0install.net\implementations\sha1new=1a6691a40
4d21b03d010dc8de1fe023e81133617\dispcalGUI\ref\sRGB.gam" -cn -t.3 -s "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.gam" -i "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT vs sRGB.wrl"
01:11:21,889 viewgam.exe -cw -t0 -w "C:\Users\chros\AppData\Local\0install.net\implementations\sha1new=1a6691a40
4d21b03d010dc8de1fe023e81133617\dispcalGUI\ref\ClayRGB1998.gam" -cn -t.3 -s "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.gam" -i "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT vs ClayRGB1998.wrl"
01:11:29,981 collink.exe -v -qh -G -iaw -r65 -n -3m -et -Et -b -IB:0.0:2.4 -a "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.cal" Rec709.icm "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.icm" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.Rec709.B0.0,2.4Gawt65.icm"
(3dlut is installed into madVR)

The interesting part is the first 3 command: it uses dispcal only for getting the "measured settings" then it quits, then it uses dispread and colprof for the rest (what dispcal did in the first command of the command line version.)
c) So at which point would I suppose to switch the custom levels on?

Otherwise, setting Saturation for Rendering intent in dispalGUI, resulted a good looking picture, but it had color clipping in the blue and suffered the same missing 17-19 black bars as the command line version (so this result was worse :) ).

4. About ccss correction files (until the i1pro will be arrived):
My TV is supposed to be a wide gamut CCFL 8+dither(or FRC) IPS. So selecting the correct correction file isn't an easy task to do either.
a) dispalGUI reports for white point (no matter whether I set 'bt.709' or 'wide' for color gamut on TV device):
- with CCFL-IPS: correct RGB balance (~dE 0.2) and ~6240 K
- with WGCCFL-IPS: wrong RGB balance and ~6100 K
This difference is huge, especially you want to correct the RGB Contrast with TV controls.
b) in HCFR checking the color gamut diagrams:
- with CCFL-IPS AND 'bt.709' (in TV) : resulting gamut is smaller than sRGB
- with CCFL-IPS AND 'wide' (in TV) : resulting gamut is bigger than sRGB
- with WGCCFL-IPS AND 'bt.709' (in TV) : resulting gamut is smaller than sRGB (that's understandable)
- with WGCCFL-IPS AND 'wide' (in TV) : resulting gamut is about the same as sRGB, slightly rotated

That makes me think how we can trust the supplied ccss files. The same colors are presented on the display (per color gamut settings) but you'll get different results, so you'll adjust colors completely differently on the very same display!

c) How can we create ccss file with command line?
What "default" setting should I use with the TV to do it?

Thanks for you help and for reading :)

[huhn]

with custom ranges you get an incorrect ICM that's pretty much useless for everything else than madVR.

when you use custom levels you have to use it from the start.

[chros]

with custom ranges you get an incorrect ICM that's pretty much useless for everything else than madVR.
I figured :) But it's not a problem since I use it only on the TV that is used just by madVR.
when you use custom levels you have to use it from the start.
OK, thanks, that's what I did.

[Siso]

So in general what do you guys recommend to start a dispcal guimonitor calibration and after that a madvr 3dlut? Seems like there are a lot of different opinions...Any advices would be appreciated :)

And what about these white level drift compensation and black level drift compensation? And shouldn't the curve for the monitor gamma 2.2 should be srgb curve? I'm new to the calibration :D gonna calibrate my Dell U2913WM thingie :D

BTW is this a good option for madvr 3dlut - https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut ?

[huhn]

And what about these white level drift compensation and black level drift compensation?

this shouldn't be needed for an LCD monitor.

windows assumes sRGB no question in realty it isn't really used. it depends on what you want to display.

in the end gamma 2.2 isn't really used too. it's gamma 2.4 and BT 1886 for complicated reasons.

BTW is this a good option for madvr 3dlut - https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut ?

it doesn't look like there is anything wrong with it but i wouldn't use it anyway.

i personally use 5000-10000 patches

this is a nice thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html

calibration with dispcal GUI is pretty easy.

1. find the correct correction for your display type.

2. fix the white point manually with the "interactive display adjustment".

3. let dispcal GUI do the rest.

[Siso]

this shouldn't be needed for an LCD monitor.

windows assumes sRGB no question in realty it isn't really used. it depends on what you want to display.

in the end gamma 2.2 isn't really used too. it's gamma 2.4 and BT 1886 for complicated reasons.



it doesn't look like there is anything wrong with it but i wouldn't use it anyway.

i personally use 5000-10000 patches

this is a nice thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html

calibration with dispcal GUI is pretty easy.

1. find the correct correction for your display type.

2. fix the white point manually with the "interactive display adjustment".

3. let dispcal GUI do the rest.

Sounds good, for testcharts for the windows calibration - large or extra large? Any special options for curves+matrix or I should use xyz lut+matrix?

[huhn]

i don't know i gave up on windows calibration. i just click on sRGB and use the defaults.

[Siso]

i don't know i gave up on windows calibration. i just click on sRGB and use the defaults.

I see, thank you for the answers :)

[chros]

calibration with dispcal GUI is pretty easy.
1. find the correct correction for your display type.
2. fix the white point manually with the "interactive display adjustment".
3. let dispcal GUI do the rest.
In addition to what huhn said, this is the official guide:
http://sourceforge.net/p/dispcalgui/wiki/3D%20LUT%20creation%20workflow%20for%20madVR%20or%20eeColor/
Try it out at first :) (I don't know the answer to your other questions.)
What kind of instrument(s) do you have?

And I have posted new result in here, if anybody is interested: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-137.html#post39630546
I'm getting closer but still not enough :)

[Asmodian]

a) I got really nasty black levels: black-level (I could see 14-16 (!) bars) and white-clipping (the "nonvisible" part of the blacks were also flashing!) test was really bad with this! Log of DispalGUI helped me with this, if I use the "-b" switch of dispcal.exe (Use forced black point hack , http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/dispcal.html#bhack) in the first command then these nasty black levels are vanished! (DispalGUI also use this '-b' switch for the last command (collink.exe) but I coudn't see any difference with/without it.)

This is normal, black level is a complicated issue as you found. I used to have to use -b as well but with my new displays and/or new versions of Argyllcms I do not.

b) when looking at the black-level test (with the above modification), 17-19 bars are gone! All the rest of the bars looks natural and all the other test clips are looking good as well. Can it be that Francois76l was talking about the same thing? http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1747776#post1747776
I tried out the '-ims -IB:0.1:2.4' combination for "collink.exe" but there was no difference.
I have only this problem with your method, and since I originally using the raised balck levels in madvr it's clearly not good that the calibrated picture lacks of blacks. Any idea?

If you need the black point hack you almost always get crushed shadows. You probably simply have to live with slightly crushed blacks as your display cannot get both an accurate gamma and desirable behavior near black. To balance this I use something like -IB:0.5:2.4, 0.1 isn't significant enough to make a visible difference. -IB:1.0:2.4 would be all crushed while -IB:0.0:2.4 (equivalent to -IB) would be raised shadow levels (gray shadows). Use -f0.5 in dispcal if using -IB:0.5:2.4 in collink.
edit: I should have said use -f0.5 in dispcal to match -IB:0.5:2.4 in collink, it is reasonable to use different values for the calibration and 3DLUT, but possibly not optimal.

Even with -f0 in dispcal you shouldn't get a raised black point when using -k0 and not targeting a white point. If you want to target a white point and get a raised black point even with -k0 use -A set to something below 4.0 and above 1.0, e.g. -A2.5.

c) Can we verify somehow the result (like we can with dispalGUI method)?

I use HCFR to measure my displays after calibration.

Sorry for the late response. :o

[markanini]

I wonder what implications -IB:x.x:2.4 switch or output offset slider has for stuff level adjustments etc. I assume defaults are the most accurate but I too have found the shadows to be somewhat lifted on my IPS panels so I'm tempted to try reducing that now.

[Asmodian]

The -IBx.x:2.4 value has a fairly subtle overall effect on ~0.15 cd/m² black level (~1000:1) or lower displays. It is noticeable but only in shadows.

Even using -IB (equivalent to -IB0.0:2.4) you should still see no bar for 16 and below, and 17 and higher should be easy to see, 17 might be too easy to see (gray shadows). As you raise x.x you push 17+ closer to 16, depending on the display's native behavior you can even crush 18-19 into 16 as you raise it to 1.0 (equivalent to -IG:2.4).

If you can see 16 or below something is wrong with your calibration because it raised the black point. Make sure to use -k0 for dispcal and lower -A4.0 if you have to. If you need to use -b (forced black point hack) you will probably have crushed shadows and be unable to see 17 even with -f0/-IB. Personally, losing 17-18 is optimal on some displays. Some shadow detail is lost but everything looks normal and the apparent contrast is much better; avoid raising the black point at all costs.

[Siso]

In addition to what huhn said, this is the official guide:
http://sourceforge.net/p/dispcalgui/wiki/3D%20LUT%20creation%20workflow%20for%20madVR%20or%20eeColor/
Try it out at first :) (I don't know the answer to your other questions.)
What kind of instrument(s) do you have?

And I have posted new result in here, if anybody is interested: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-137.html#post39630546
I'm getting closer but still not enough :)

I'm trying to create a 3dlut for madvr, your results look OK, can you share more info on your attempt to create a good 3dlut for madvr?

Here are some settings from my latest windows calibration:

http://s21.postimg.org/ghygjrvcj/le_1.png (http://postimg.org/image/ghygjrvcj/)

http://s21.postimg.org/bgr2ienw3/le_2.png (http://postimg.org/image/bgr2ienw3/)

http://s21.postimg.org/afqtta6wj/le_3.png (http://postimg.org/image/afqtta6wj/)

[chros]

If you need the black point hack you almost always get crushed shadows.

I wonder what implications -IB:x.x:2.4 switch or output offset slider has for stuff level adjustments etc.

The -IBx.x:2.4 value has a fairly subtle overall effect on ~0.15 cd/m² black level (~1000:1) or lower displays. It is noticeable but only in shadows.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Asmodian!
Well, the -IB:x.x:2.4 switch depends on which rendering intent do you use! (-i switch) Asmodian used -ims , dispalGUI offers -iaw by default. The difference is the -ims is relative, while -iaw is absolute. They state that -iaw supposed to be more accurate (I didn't had the time to test it on my setup though). But, -IB:x.x:2.4 works the opposite way for these 2 groups: to eliminate the fog effect of -iaw I had to set the slider to 100 (that means IB:1.0:2.4).
About the black crush: I noticed that the cause of it is the "-G2.4 -f0 -k0" switches in the dispcal command. If I leave it out and '-b' switch is also present I won't get black crush.


I'm trying to create a 3dlut for madvr, your results look OK, can you share more info on your attempt to create a good 3dlut for madvr?
In dipalGUI, select your correction matrix then follow the tutorial on link link you've posted. https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut
So far this gives me the best result (with the custom testchart) with 2 modifications on my old CCFL-IPS display:
- on calibration tab: leave Tone curve "as measured"
- on 3dlut tab: set 100% for the black offset (under rendering intent) (you have to enable the advanced settings in the menu, I think)
With this I don't get the black crush (17-19) and there isn't any fog-effect, and thanks to the custom testchart I got the most accurate colors (so far, at least :) ).

[Siso]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Asmodian!
Well, the -IB:x.x:2.4 switch depends on which rendering intent do you use! (-i switch) Asmodian used -ims , dispalGUI offers -iaw by default. The difference is the -ims is relative, while -iaw is absolute. They state that -iaw supposed to be more accurate (I didn't had the time to test it on my setup though). But, -IB:x.x:2.4 works the opposite way for these 2 groups: to eliminate the fog effect of -iaw I had to set the slider to 100 (that means IB:1.0:2.4).
About the black crush: I noticed that the cause of it is the "-G2.4 -f0 -k0" switches in the dispcal command. If I leave it out and '-b' switch is also present I won't get black crush.

In dipalGUI, select your correction matrix then follow the tutorial on link link you've posted. https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut
So far this gives me the best result (with the custom testchart) with 2 modifications on my old CCFL-IPS display:
- on calibration tab: leave Tone curve "as measured"
- on 3dlut tab: set 100% for the black offset (under rendering intent) (you have to enable the advanced settings in the menu, I think)
With this I don't get the black crush (17-19) and there isn't any fog-effect, and thanks to the custom testchart I got the most accurate colors (so far, at least :) ).

Will try that these days, and I'll share my results :), thank you.

A side note about the windows calibration, is it OK (the pics I had uploaded)?

[chros]

A side note about the windows calibration, is it OK (the pics I had uploaded)?
Which pic exactly? I was talking about them. :)

[Siso]

Which pic exactly? I was talking about them. :)

Oh, sorry then :D Will make the 3dlut tonight to see how the things are :)

[Siso]

Here are the results from tonight:

http://s28.postimg.org/auu40fe21/with.png (http://postimg.org/image/auu40fe21/)

http://s28.postimg.org/i0lv2vn55/without.png (http://postimg.org/image/i0lv2vn55/)

black clipping test:

http://s9.postimg.org/s4plxtkfv/black_clipping_3dlut_off.png (http://postimg.org/image/s4plxtkfv/)

http://s9.postimg.org/afxv678or/black_clipping_3dlut_on.png (http://postimg.org/image/afxv678or/)

[Asmodian]

Screen shots don't show us anything, they look different on my screen than they do on your's. ;)

[Siso]

Screen shots don't show us anything, they look different on my screen than they do on your's. ;)

I guess it depends on the calibration, I thought one of the purposes to calibrate your screen is to close match other people's calibrated screens :D anyway, I don't have visible bars from 17-19 with the 3dlut, without it, they are visible.

[huhn]

a 3d lut creates an image that looks right on your screen and only on your screen.

[raffriff42]

Monitor calibration methodology has been designed for matching different displays to each other and to print work, not to give the best viewing experience. What makes a good calibration for matching prints is not the same as what provides an optimal experience watching video.

I, and others who's screens I have calibrated, much prefer the calibration when not targeting a white point or (shudder) a brightness. Targeting a brightness with the calibration for viewing video is simply a bad idea. There is no way you can notice a small change in brightness but you reduce saturation on all colors in order to target a brightness, which reduces contrast too. The only way to reduce brightness with a calibration is to have the video card output 254 or less when the source pixel's value is 255, this requires lowering all values to avoid banding, reducing the dynamic range for no visible benefit.
[...]
This may give the impression that I think calibrations are somewhat useless but the calibrated gamma curve is generally much better, as long as you do not get banding, and tuning the white point with the meter and the monitor's controls often helps a lot.Good points, Asmodian. It seems to me any unnecessary altering of an 8-bit video signal should be avoided. I am surprised calibration is not always done at the monitor, and in the analog domain - ie DAC gain & offset. This is preferable I think - except, as you say, for print work and such: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_calibration#Display
Depending on the calibration software and type of monitor used, the software either creates a correction matrix (i.e. an ICC profile) for color values before being sent to the display, or gives instructions for altering the display's brightness/contrast and RGB values through the OSD.


Screen shots don't show us anything, they look different on my screen than they do on your's. ;)Yep! Another thing, calibration at the GPU messes up the colors if you are capturing the screen.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fraps+yellow+tint

[chros]

Here are the results from tonight
But with which settings? :)

a 3d lut creates an image that looks right on your screen and only on your screen.
Screen shots don't show us anything, they look different on my screen than they do on your's. ;)
Yep! Another thing, calibration at the GPU messes up the colors if you are capturing the screen.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fraps+yellow+tint
It's true but it can show us mayor flaws like elevated shadows, etc.

[seiyafan]

Is 3d LUT same as .icc profile? My question is if I create a 3d LUT for MadVR, can I also use that profile on the same monitor for photo editing? Will all the colors look accurate for both movies and photos?

[Arm3nian]

I ended up returning the VP2780-4k. I wasn't happy with it. Cost $100 to ship it all the way to New York from Las Vegas but it's better than paying $700+ for something that doesn't impress you.

I ended up getting the PG279q. A lot of units have QC issues, but they seem to be getting better. Mine doesn't have anything serious, but it does have some uniformity issues. They're all over the monitor when you look for it on lets say a red background. The most noticeable is on a white background when on web pages, where the top 30% looks significantly more dim than the rest.

I don't think the PG279q comes factory calibrated, but after my i1 pro and dispcal calibration, the difference was obvious. A single windows calibration looked better than all the profiles and 3d luts I made with the previous display. The contrast is also really good, 1200+ after calibration, and blacks look nice for an IPS.

The gaming features are a little gimmicky imho. The display goes up to 165Hz, but it's hard to notice much difference after 120Hz, maybe even before it. ULMB pwm flicker just makes my head hurt after 5 min of use, and has ridiculous ghosting, making it unusable. Gsync is cool, but it's badly implemented on the software side. Blizzard games for examples don't work properly with it. For diablo 3, you need to enable vsync in game and turn off fps cap for it to work, which causes micro stuttering :confused:.
In WoW, the fps limiter in game is completely broken, and 3rd party doesn't work correctly with the engine. My 980ti can easily maintain 165fps in a specific area (and the game in general), but it drops to 128-153 randomly in the same exact area with the gpu at 65% load and the cpu at 23%. In more demanding games, you don't get a huge stutter, but I can still feel choppiness when it drops to 60's. That's the biggest problem with high refresh rate. After 165Hz, 60Hz is disgusting until your brain adjusts. 1440p is nice. I sit about about a foot away, and often can notice the pixels, where it was impossible to on 4k. But at least I don't have to deal with scaling issues.

I have until January 30th to return it. I should really focus more on my engineering coursework rather than games, so it'll probably be going back if I get free shipping.

Back on topic, I didn't use any of the fancy features in dispcal. I targeted a specific white level and white point to help me set it as desired, then went back and changed to as measured. The windows calibration looks great. From that, I made the 3D lut, and it looks good in movies. I'm guessing it is better to create a new profile for madVR and target Rec. 1866 instead of 2.2 gamma? It feels weird for the tone curve to be gamma 2.2, and then the 3D lut to be set to Rec. 709? Probably worth it to make the new profile.

[e-t172]

Is 3d LUT same as .icc profile? My question is if I create a 3d LUT for MadVR, can I also use that profile on the same monitor for photo editing? Will all the colors look accurate for both movies and photos?

A 3DLUT is not an ICC profile.

What ICC-aware applications (e.g. Photoshop) do is, they use the ICC profile that's set in the Windows color control panel applet to generate a 3DLUT on the fly and use that to display accurate colors. Non-ICC aware applications don't know how to do that and therefore don't use the ICC profile. However they are still subject to the 3x1DLUT calibration that's stored (vcgt) in the ICC profile which is applied to the entire output of the GPU, making things especially confusing.

Unfortunately, madVR is not ICC aware (I've tried to convince madshi to implement ICC, but to no avail (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1647449#post1647449)). However, it can load "raw" pre-generated 3DLUTs, so if you generate a 3DLUT from your ICC profile, you can achieve the same end result as an ICC-aware application. The only difference is that it has to be done manually - madVR is not smart enough to deduce the 3DLUT from the ICC profile set in the Windows options.

[huhn]

windowed overlay reads the ICC and ignores the gamma ramp by default. i don't know what it reads from it.

it's nice if you can read an ICC and use this but there is a good reason collink needs minutes or even up to hour to create a 3D LUT.

[seiyafan]

I see, so it looks like I need to calibrate my monitor twice, one for photo (2.2) and the other for madVR (Rec. 1866), because the .icc generated for Rec. 1866 would not work well for photos, I just need to get the 3D LUT file generated to be imported into madVR, and the .icc calibrated for 2.2 gamma would be loaded into Windows. Is this logic correct?

Another question, since my monitor is not wide gamut, should Rec. 709 be used instead of 1866? Excuse my n00bness, I am not good with the technical jargon.

[huhn]

for a 3D LUT only the readings matter.

so you can create a bt 709 profile from the start and use this to create a 3D LUT.

BT 1886 has the same gamut as bt 709 it's just a "different" gamma depending on the "black" your screen has.

[seiyafan]

I see, I have an EIZO IPS with 1000:1 contrast ratio, but nowhere near as black as any OLED. Is it still okay to go with BT 1886?

[e-t172]

it's nice if you can read an ICC and use this but there is a good reason collink needs minutes or even up to hour to create a 3D LUT.

3DLUTs can be cached. Also, how do you manage to make collink run for an hour? That's crazy. On my machine it usually runs in seconds. Are you using "high quality" (-q h) options despite the Argyll documentation explicitly telling you not to do that?

I see, so it looks like I need to calibrate my monitor twice, one for photo (2.2) and the other for madVR (Rec. 1866), because the .icc generated for Rec. 1866 would not work well for photos, I just need to get the 3D LUT file generated to be imported into madVR, and the .icc calibrated for 2.2 gamma would be loaded into Windows. Is this logic correct?

Technically, you can calibrate your monitor to anything you want; anything you do will be compensated back when you generate a 3DLUT, or when your photo software reads the monitor's ICC profile. Calibration is just a way to get the monitor to behave nicely with applications that are not ICC-aware; what matters for madVR or ICC-aware software is correct monitor characterization (i.e. profiling).

Technically, calibrating as close as possible to the actual colorspace of your content might increase accuracy and reduce banding, but by how much is up for debate.

Another question, since my monitor is not wide gamut, should Rec. 709 be used instead of 1866? Excuse my n00bness, I am not good with the technical jargon.

Rec. 1866 is not a gamut, it's a gamma curve. Rec.709 is a gamut. Using Rec. 1886 "instead of" Rec. 709 makes no sense, because they are complementary. You use Rec. 1886 with Rec. 709.

I see, I have an EIZO IPS with 1000:1 contrast ratio, but nowhere near as black as any OLED. Is it still okay to go with BT 1886?

Yes. In fact, that's one of the reasons why BT.1886 was introduced in the first place (i.e. achieve correct results in displays with imperfect black).

[huhn]

3DLUTs can be cached. Also, how do you manage to make collink run for an hour? That's crazy. On my machine it usually runs in seconds. Are you using "high quality" (-q h) options despite the Argyll documentation explicitly telling you not to do that?

default dispcal gui settings take about 4-5 min.

-r 256 can take a lot longer time easily an hour. if this is like -qu than don't use it but there is no word about not using high.

[seiyafan]

Heh, so much to learn. Last question for now, under Video 3D LUT for madVR, the default tone curve is 1886 with 2.4 gamma (as opposed to 2.2), and rendering intent is set to "Absolute colorimetric with white point scaling" is because these are recognized to be the better settings for movies after extensive testing right?

[huhn]

yes. BT 1886 is currently the correct "SPEC".

on a screen with perfect black (OLED) it is gamma 2.4.

[seiyafan]

For non-perfect black monitors should gamma 2.2 be used instead? Or stick with 2.4?

[huhn]

no BT 1886 it does the rest by it self that's why we have it now.

in the end gamma depends on your ambient light. this is for bat-caves.

in a day light flooded room you are not going to like a gamma of 2.4

[seiyafan]

I see, since most people watch movies in a darker room 2.4 is preferred over 2.2

[huhn]

yes before BT 1886 a gamma of 2.4 was correct.

[seiyafan]

Correct me if I am wrong: If I want to use gamma 2.2 for general application (Web, photos, etc.) and Rec. 1866 for movies. I would run calibration twice, first time with gamma 2.2 to create an ICC file for Windows (run "dispcalGUI profile loader" at startup), second time with gamma Rec. 1866 just for creating a 3D LUT file for madVR. Is this the right flow?

[huhn]

you can just calibrate for 2.2 and create a 3 d lut from it.

[seiyafan]

I see. The reason I am asking is because I have been reading this guide:
https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut
and in step 7, it selects Rec. 1886 as opposed to 2.2, I wonder if there is a specific reason for that.

[Asmodian]

When creating the 3DLUT you can set a BT.1886 gamma as the target even when you have used a 2.2 gamma for normal calibration. I have not noticed any downsides when doing this.

That guide recommends a BT.1886 gamma curve for calibration (as do I) but if you want a pure power 2.2 instead go for it. :)

[seiyafan]

Got it working, thanx!

[seiyafan]

I took screenshots for different calibrations. Could you please provide some comments from the comparisons below, I don't know how to tell which is good or bad.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/155196

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/155197

It seems with 3D LUT pictures become warmer with a reddish tint. I don't know if that's what it supposed to be or not.

[foxyshadis]

I took screenshots for different calibrations. Could you please provide some comments from the comparisons below, I don't know how to tell which is good or bad.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/155196

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/155197

It seems with 3D LUT pictures become warmer with a reddish tint. I don't know if that's what it supposed to be or not.

When you label it "3D LUT 1886 (gamma 2.4)" is it BT.1886 or gamma 2.4? They're very different in the shadows and midtones, even if highlights are similar; BT.1886 is much closer to 2.2 than 2.4.

[seiyafan]

When you label it "3D LUT 1886 (gamma 2.4)" is it BT.1886 or gamma 2.4? They're very different in the shadows and midtones, even if highlights are similar; BT.1886 is much closer to 2.2 than 2.4.

Please see the pic below:

On a separate note: I bought the i1Display Pro more than 3 years ago. Has there been any released firmware for it? Because I couldn't find any on their official website.

[huhn]

When you label it "3D LUT 1886 (gamma 2.4)" is it BT.1886 or gamma 2.4? They're very different in the shadows and midtones, even if highlights are similar; BT.1886 is much closer to 2.2 than 2.4.
bt 1886 can be very close to gamma 2.2 if the black point of the screen is bad. but i can be gamma 2.4 too if the black is perfect.

so judging bt 1886 doesn't work without the screen.

@seiyafan

it's impossible to judge a 3d lut for your screen without a lot of guessing.

so make sure you used the correct correction and check the calibration.

you can do this using "tools -> verify calibrations" in dispcal gui.

have you calibrated the white point before you created the 3d lut?

[seiyafan]

Thanks for your suggestion. I used "as measured" for white point when I created the 3d lut, I will also check the verification later.

[Nullack]

Has anyone got any source for test patterns including pluge at 4K in RGB PC levels? Everything Ive found is TV levels calibrated.

[huhn]

limited range and full range has nothing to do with how you calibrate.
same for resolution.

[Nullack]

Well you seem to be the only one saying that. Everywhere else I look, is pluge patterns to say 16D blackness and then ones specifically different coded to RGB where zero is the black with no blacker than black unlike the 16D TV style levels ones. Please explain.

[chros]

Everywhere else I look,
For example?

[huhn]

Well you seem to be the only one saying that. Everywhere else I look, is pluge patterns to say 16D blackness and then ones specifically different coded to RGB where zero is the black with no blacker than black unlike the 16D TV style levels ones. Please explain.

a limited range source is rendered at full range so i can't follow you.

[foxyshadis]

Nullack, how many times do you have to be told to ignore old Studio RGB standards? Every video codec/renderer decodes to 0-255 RGB, your monitor displays 0-255 RGB, that's all that should matter. 16D isn't even a real term.

[Nullack]

The simple fact is, not everyone agrees with Foxyshadis. I would hope you to have the maturity to accept that your own theories may not be shared universally by all. Many people particularly on the consumer electronics side consider TV level calibrations to be the right way to go on any TV, including digital ones being fed digital signals from a HTPC.

However foxyshadis if you bothered to actually read my post, you would see *Im trying to do PC level* calibrations. Even a most cursory look at my post would have given you that. Instead of going off on an unrelated point, how about addressing what I actually said, which is about finding PC level 4K calibration test patterns.....

[huhn]

sorry the issue here is that you don't understand calibration

[Nullack]

.
same for resolution.

So you have invented a perfect scaler then and can miraculously do test patterns like sharpness in an optimal way even when you have to scale the test patterns to have it display at native resolution :eek:

[Nullack]

sorry the issue here is that you don't understand calibration

If you believe that, explain precisely where you think Im wrong. I do believe I do understand it.

[huhn]

So you have invented a perfect scaler then and can miraculously do test patterns like sharpness in an optimal way even when you have to scale the test patterns to have it display at native resolution :eek:

black boarders?

[Nullack]

Huhn I know you have allot of video knowledge and I'm thankful for insights you have offered in the past :) In this case though, I really dont think you get whats driving what Im asking and sometimes I get the impression english isnt your common language. Ill try to explain. The thing about test patterns is they need to be "reference quality". They need to be verified they are correct - for example the ISF have a process for this and they explained it when they published some ISF test patterns. As you know there is allot of different test patterns that do different things. The reason I want 4K test patterns in particular is to send *native" resolution images to the *native* resolution of the display so as to avoid any non reference artifacts in the image. I gave the example of sharpness tests. Those sorts of test patterns are useful in native resolution because of how fine the detail gets with testing sharpness. As you'd know, 4K is allot more pixels than full HD. The value seems obvious to me in these sorts of cases to be able to do native resolution test patterns.

Im not arrogant and I do listen to contrary arguments that are rational. If indeed your convinced I'm wrong about this topic, then please explain why you think so. Just saying that I dont know doesnt contribute anything of substance to the discussion.

[huhn]

like I already said levels doesn't matter if you 100% know how they work.

that's mean you know the render/desktop side, the GPU side and the TV side of "levels".

just a small example. if you set the GPU to YCbCr or limited range RGB than you will not get information in the WTW and BTB parts no matter what.

if you take a 1080p test image and want to use it at an UHD screen than you use black boarders for that (zoom 100 %). the image in the middle is still bit perfect.

works with http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/white.php
and works with these test pattern: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/948496-avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration.html

[Nullack]

if you take a 1080p test image and want to use it at an UHD screen than you use black boarders for that (zoom 100 %). the image in the middle is still bit perfect.

Ok I see. Just dont scale it when using test patterns lower than the native resolution. While I realise that would work, I would prefer to deal with things like sharpness at full screen so I can carefully try to tune into the reference standard. Thanks

[huhn]

NN x2 scaling should work for most test patterns too.

a good sharpness test picture works like this: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php

so a smaller picture helps a lot to do this test.
this test for example isn't affected really by NN x2 scaling.

[chros]

So, I have finished playing with profiling, so I try to summarize what I understood so far. And thank all of you for the great help.
If you need the black point hack you almost always get crushed shadows.
Probably that's right if you use dispcal.exe at the first step (see below for alternative way), at least it worked like this on my setup.
About the black crush: I noticed that the cause of it is the "-G2.4 -f0 -k0" switches in the dispcal command. If I leave it out and '-b' switch is also present I won't get black crush.
b) with dispalGUI the situation is pretty interesting, it uses different method: setting measured (as target) everywhere (the full log is here: http://pastebin.com/nPrEspS1 )
here are the commands (timecodes are included):
00:39:30,080 dispread.exe -F "-P0.5,0.5,9.486833" -v -dmadvr -c1 -yn -X CCFLFamily_07Feb11.ccss -K "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT.cal" "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
00:42:46,055 colprof.exe -v -qm -ax -bn "madVR 2015-12-06 00-38 S XYZLUT"
And that's pretty interesting indeed, if you leave the tone curve setting at 'measured' on Calibration tab in dispcalGUI then it won't use dispcal.exe at the first step but instead:
- it will use dispread.exe with predefined (!) .cal (calibration) and ti1 (testchart with 154 patches) to create a measured .ti3 file
- then colprof.exe will provide the necessary .icm file from the above .ti3 file to be able to use targen.exe in the next step
As I reported, I don't have any problems with this method. So I went for this.

(-i switch) Asmodian used -ims , dispalGUI offers -iaw by default. The difference is the -ims is relative, while -iaw is absolute. They state that -iaw supposed to be more accurate (I didn't had the time to test it on my setup though).
So, I tried out all of them: only the types that belong to the absolute group produced acceptable results and I couldn't really see the difference between them. For example -ims , -is switches produced oversaturated colors that was so visible as well. So I settled down with the -iaw switch (Absolute with white point scaling).

In fact, that's one of the reasons why BT.1886 was introduced in the first place (i.e. achieve correct results in displays with imperfect black).
I wonder what implications -IB:x.x:2.4 switch or output offset slider has for stuff level adjustments etc. I assume defaults are the most accurate ...
yes. BT 1886 is currently the correct "SPEC".
no BT 1886 it does the rest by it self that's why we have it now.
I would argue about this. This is the reason why:

in the end gamma depends on your ambient light. this is for bat-caves.
in a day light flooded room you are not going to like a gamma of 2.4
so judging bt 1886 doesn't work without the screen.
These are the most important facts.

I targeted a specific white level and white point to help me set it as desired, then went back and changed to as measured. The windows calibration looks great. From that, I made the 3D lut, and it looks good in movies. I'm guessing it is better to create a new profile for madVR and target Rec. 1866 instead of 2.2 gamma? It feels weird for the tone curve to be gamma 2.2, and then the 3D lut to be set to Rec. 709?
I see, I have an EIZO IPS with 1000:1 contrast ratio, but nowhere near as black as any OLED. Is it still okay to go with BT 1886?
I wonder what implications -IB:x.x:2.4 switch or output offset slider has for stuff level adjustments etc. I assume defaults are the most accurate but I too have found the shadows to be somewhat lifted on my IPS panels so I'm tempted to try reducing that now.
If someone hasn't seen it yet, I made a post about gamma here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-139.html#post40108362

[Arm3nian]

Is it possible to get non oversaturated colors on a high gamut display using dispcal and a color managed program?
For example, if I choose sRGB tone curve, and create an icc profile and import it in firefox, will colors look normal?

I still need a monitor (returned the pg279q lol). 4k bluray is coming in less than a month and is has a larger color space and is 10bit. The new dell ultrasharp's have ~98% dci-p3 and are cheap ($700) for the supposed quality you get; gb-led, 10bit, 1440p etc. They currently seem like a good purchase.

What about madVR? Do you need a 3Dlut for proper color space conversions, i.e rec. 2020 to .709? What about 4k bluray on a display that has high dci-p3 coverage, works by default?

[Siso]

Is madvr yCMS calibration option useful for sRGB monitors?

[Asmodian]

Is it possible to get non oversaturated colors on a high gamut display using dispcal and a color managed program?
For example, if I choose sRGB tone curve, and create an icc profile and import it in firefox, will colors look normal?

I still need a monitor (returned the pg279q lol). 4k bluray is coming in less than a month and is has a larger color space and is 10bit. The new dell ultrasharp's have ~98% dci-p3 and are cheap ($700) for the supposed quality you get; gb-led, 10bit, 1440p etc. They currently seem like a good purchase.

What about madVR? Do you need a 3Dlut for proper color space conversions, i.e rec. 2020 to .709? What about 4k bluray on a display that has high dci-p3 coverage, works by default?

Yes, it is possible to get non oversaturated color on a high gamut display as you stated. A lot of applications that use ICC profiles only use the simple 1DLUTs (gamma ramps) for calibration which does not correct the gamut but Firefox, Chrome, Photoshop, etc. will.

For madVR you only need a 3DLUT if you want to use your display's true gamut but if your display's native gamut is close to one of the options in "this display is already calibrated" madVR does the proper conversion from the source gamut to the display's gamut.

Options available:
BT.709
SMPTE C
EBU/PAL
BT.2020
DCI-P3

The one important option missing is AdobeRGB but for those new ultrasharps DCI-P3 would probably work pretty well. :)

The biggest issue I have with any wide gamut display is streaming video, I have never found a method to correct streaming video. :(

Is madvr yCMS calibration option useful for sRGB monitors?

Not really IMO, only if you aren't really very close to sRGB.

[Siso]

Yes, it is possible to get non oversaturated color on a high gamut display as you stated. A lot of applications that use ICC profiles only use the simple 1DLUTs (gamma ramps) for calibration which does not correct the gamut but Firefox, Chrome, Photoshop, etc. will.

For madVR you only need a 3DLUT if you want to use your display's true gamut but if your display's native gamut is close to one of the options in "this display is already calibrated" madVR does the proper conversion from the source gamut to the display's gamut.

Options available:
BT.709
SMPTE C
EBU/PAL
BT.2020
DCI-P3

The one important option missing is AdobeRGB but for those new ultrasharps DCI-P3 would probably work pretty well. :)

The biggest issue I have with any wide gamut display is streaming video, I have never found a method to correct streaming video. :(



Not really IMO, only if you aren't really very close to sRGB.

I see, thank you for the answer, I'll stick with 3DLUT :)

[Arm3nian]

Yes, it is possible to get non oversaturated color on a high gamut display as you stated. A lot of applications that use ICC profiles only use the simple 1DLUTs (gamma ramps) for calibration which does not correct the gamut but Firefox, Chrome, Photoshop, etc. will.

For madVR you only need a 3DLUT if you want to use your display's true gamut but if your display's native gamut is close to one of the options in "this display is already calibrated" madVR does the proper conversion from the source gamut to the display's gamut.

Options available:
BT.709
SMPTE C
EBU/PAL
BT.2020
DCI-P3

The one important option missing is AdobeRGB but for those new ultrasharps DCI-P3 would probably work pretty well. :)

The biggest issue I have with any wide gamut display is streaming video, I have never found a method to correct streaming video. :(
I see... Why doesn't windows have proper color management by now:mad:

So unless your monitor is in Photoshop 24/7, there really isn't a point in wide gamut. I guess you could get accurate colors on the web, but content is basically all sRGB, so you're just wasting money. With UHD and madVR you could benefit, but a higher contrast ratio is probably more important than a larger color space, which rules ips panels out for viewing, as opposed to creating.

[Asmodian]

I see... Why doesn't windows have proper color management by now:mad:

So unless your monitor is in Photoshop 24/7, there really isn't a point in wide gamut.

I agree that it is very annoying that Windows still lacks the ability to do gamut conversion.

I would even go so far as to say that there are large negatives to a wide gamut display unless your monitor is in Photoshop 24/7. :mad:

A DCI-P3 OLED for movie watching with madVR would still be quite enticing, assuming I could get any content in wide gamuts. :p

[Arm3nian]

I got my UP2716d today (ordered it before our discussion on wide gamut).

The first thing that came to mind was wow, vibrant colors, not over saturated and bad looking. It looks a bit like a samsung phone, which imo looks the best out of all phones screens. This is the best looking display I've seen, and it's not like I paid 2,000 for it, only $700, which is less than my previous monitors. It comes default in adobeRGB color space. sRGB looks very faded, I wouldn't use it, unless I calibrate it. But I don't think I need to use it, because adobeRGB looks excellent. DCI-P3 mode has very nice colors, but it's dim (obviously for movies), but I don't have any content in DCI-P3 yet. UHD movies come in less than a month I think. I have not calibrated it yet, but ran a color test chart in dispcal and I see colors I've never seen before. They don't look incorrect.

I can select 10bpc in NVCP with my 980ti. Do you know how to use madTPG for normal calibrations, or is it not good to do that. IIRC madTPG has 10bit output?

[Arm3nian]

I've found something a bit weird. The monitor on default is in "standard" mode. Everything looks great, and dispcal shows 100%sRGB and 99.7% adobe RGB and 93% dci-p3. When I switch from standard mode to color space, and select adobe RGB, reds turn orange... sRGB emulation mode also looks makes reds look orange. wtf lol

[Asmodian]

I got my UP2716d today (ordered it before our discussion on wide gamut).

The first thing that came to mind was wow, vibrant colors, not over saturated and bad looking. It looks a bit like a samsung phone, which imo looks the best out of all phones screens.

It may not be bad looking but it is oversaturated, all the Samsung phone screens are also oversaturated*.

I've found something a bit weird. The monitor on default is in "standard" mode. Everything looks great, and dispcal shows 100%sRGB and 99.7% adobe RGB and 93% dci-p3. When I switch from standard mode to color space, and select adobe RGB, reds turn orange... sRGB emulation mode also looks makes reds look orange. wtf lol

Correcting oversaturated colors always looks worse than having non-oversaturated primaries to start with, in my experiance. The only way to desaturate red is to add green and blue, if you don't add enough blue it will look orange. Also less saturated red will look orangish/pinkish when compared to more saturated reds. A more saturated red is more "red" than a less saturated one. ;)

Trying to figure out why and how colors are off with a wide gamut display taught me a lot about how humans see color and the limits of a calibration. Also, everything is so relative the immediate experiance is sometimes misleading.

edit:
*for sRGB, they are not saturated enough for DCI-P3.

[Arm3nian]

I made profiles to use with the emulation modes, and while they helped a bit, sRGB and AdobeRGB still make reds look orange. Literally. There is no red when looking at a color pallet. sRGB should have red in Windows, but it doesn't. I tried AdobeRGB in photoshop and still no reds. I can't change gain or saturation or anything in the presets, so it has to be an internal defect. No other explanation really.

My panel is going back though. It has 10-20 dead pixels, and 10-20 bright/stuck pixels. I don't understand how this passed any QC control from Dell, especially since it is an ultrasharp model. Seems like it was returned by someone, and Dell or B&H didn't bother to fix or retire it, and it was just repacked and sold as new. Pathetic. Going to stick to Newegg from now on.

The monitor I want is the new OLED from Dell. 400,000:1 CR, 120Hz... too bad it's 5 grand...

Leaning towards the U3415W or the unreleased U2717d. Dell seems to be the industry standard, when you get one without any problems at least :rolleyes:

[chros]

The monitor I want is the new OLED from Dell. 400,000:1 CR, 120Hz... too bad it's 5 grand...
Wha'? :) 5 grand??!!! In which currency? :D That's insane ... :)

[Asmodian]

$4,999 USD. :p

30 inch, OLED, 97.8% of DCI-P3, 3840x2160, 120Hz. :eek:

[Arm3nian]

Wha'? :) 5 grand??!!! In which currency? :D That's insane ... :)
http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/vn/press-releases/2016-01-06-dell-updates-latitude-and-industry-leading-monitor

Early adopter price. Also no competition from other monitors. I wish they made it somewhat affordable though. Business strategies ruin the fun :devil:

$4,999 USD. :p

30 inch, OLED, 97.8% of DCI-P3, 3840x2160, 120Hz. :eek:
And 0.1ms pixel respone time :D

[chros]

$4,999 USD. :p

30 inch, OLED, 97.8% of DCI-P3, 3840x2160, 120Hz. :eek:
ppffff.. 5000 for 30''. 5000 is the 65'' LG 65EF9500 OLED.

[Siso]

ppffff.. 5000 for 30''. 5000 is the 65'' LG 65EF9500 OLED.

Chros, do you have any recommendation for a 3dlut with gamma 2.4 relative, how many % black output offset should be used, if the black level of the monitor is ~ 0.0871, and the contrast ratio is 1000:1?

[chros]

Chros, do you have any recommendation for a 3dlut with gamma 2.4 relative, how many % black output offset should be used, if the black level of the monitor is ~ 0.0871, and the contrast ratio is 1000:1?
Not really, it depends on your viewing condition and preference. Try out with 100% at first then lower it by 5% all the time (generate a new 3dlut) and check the result with your favorite clip.

[Siso]

Not really, it depends on your viewing condition and preference. Try out with 100% at first then lower it by 5% all the time (generate a new 3dlut) and check the result with your favorite clip.

On 100% I get black clipping in the "black clipping test" video.

I watch mostly in a very dark room at night.

[chros]

On 100% I get black clipping in the "black clipping test" video.

I watch mostly in a very dark room at night.
1. Do you also have clipping without 3dlut?

2. I just checked with HCFR (according to your data and I set 105 cdm for Y white) and compared to my night settings:
- 105 cdm white, 0.14 cdm black, I used 2.4 relative 98 offset
-- this results gamma: 10% white ~2.22 ; 20% white ~2.33 ; 30% white ~2.36
- to achieve similar results you have to use 87% offset (with 2.4 relative) in DisplayCal

But the best approach is to try out different offsets :)

[Siso]

1. Do you also have clipping without 3dlut?

2. I just checked with HCFR (according to your data and I set 105 cdm for Y white) and compared to my night settings:
- 105 cdm white, 0.14 cdm black, I used 2.4 relative 98 offset
-- this results gamma: 10% white ~2.22 ; 20% white ~2.33 ; 30% white ~2.36
- to achieve similar results you have to use 87% offset (with 2.4 relative) in DisplayCal

But the best approach is to try out different offsets :)

With 95% bo offset I can see the 17-25 flashing, 17 flashes and can be barely seen, in a completely dark room I can see it more clearly, I guess I'll stick with 95% bo offset, another strange thing in the 3dlut is some kind of red color clipping...

[chros]

With 95% bo offset I can see the 17-25 flashing, 17 flashes and can be barely seen, in a completely dark room I can see it more clearly, I guess I'll stick with 95% bo offset, another strange thing in the 3dlut is some kind of red color clipping...
Sometimes I get this as well, currently with my monitor. Have you modified the contrast setting? If yes, try out with the default setting.
Otherwise I don't have any idea what can you do about this, apart from rerun the whole measurement and hope the best :)

[Siso]

Sometimes I get this as well, currently with my monitor. Have you modified the contrast setting? If yes, try out with the default setting.
Otherwise I don't have any idea what can you do about this, apart from rerun the whole measurement and hope the best :)

When I calibrate, I never modify the contrast, it is always the native :) I'm now using 87% bo offset, and I'll run few more tests to see how it performs.

[chros]

When I calibrate, I never modify the contrast, it is always the native :)
Good, good :)
I'm now using 87% bo offset, and I'll run few more tests to see how it performs.
What can modify the result:
- light condition in the environment where you take measurement (!) (even with id3pro)
- if you uncheck the "interactive measurement" on calibration tab: first you it to set your device to near to D65 then cancel the process, then start a new madrv process with this setting unchecked.

[Siso]

Good, good :)

What can modify the result:
- light condition in the environment where you take measurement (!) (even with id3pro)
- if you uncheck the "interactive measurement" on calibration tab: first you it to set your device to near to D65 then cancel the process, then start a new madrv process with this setting unchecked.

For the 3dlut I used this tutorial https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut

My current calibration is set to srgb with linear 2.2 gamma, I got pretty decent result :)

[CarlosCaco]

Hey guys, im trying to achieve a good 3d lut but Having hard times, my display don t get near d65 At all, i have only brightness anda contrast sliders on my tv...
If set white point to as measured should i put relative on rendering intent?
And black level correction and rate? I m getting correct gray scale with blc on auto and rate on 3... Is this correct? Should i use this?
Is i1d2 too old technology to old? Its possible that i1d2 is reading totaly wrong the temperature and the colors?

[Asmodian]

Hey guys, im trying to achieve a good 3d lut but Having hard times, my display don t get near d65 At all, i have only brightness anda contrast sliders on my tv...
If set white point to as measured should i put relative on rendering intent?
And black level correction and rate? I m getting correct gray scale with blc on auto and rate on 3... Is this correct? Should i use this?
Is i1d2 too old technology to old? Its possible that i1d2 is reading totaly wrong the temperature and the colors?

Yes, it is quite possible the i1d2 is too old to measure correct white on your display. Colorimeters use filters to measure color and new backlight technologies require different filters or spectral correction files. The filters also change over time.

Use as measured for white and I suggest the Luminance Axis intent. I also like the less intense Saturation intent, especially for anime or cartoons, it keeps the intensity of colors more correct even if the hue is a bit off. Both Perceptual and Saturation intents are better when making larger changes, relative is only preferred when making small corrections in my experiance.

edit: for black level correction auto and 3 sounds good.

[CarlosCaco]

Yes, it is quite possible the i1d2 is too old to measure correct white on your display. Colorimeters use filters to measure color and new backlight technologies require different filters or spectral correction files. The filters also change over time.

Use as measured for white and I suggest the Luminance Axis intent. I also like the less intense Saturation intent, especially for anime or cartoons, it keeps the intensity of colors more correct even if the hue is a bit off. Both Perceptual and Saturation intents are better when making larger changes, relative is only preferred when making small corrections in my experiance.

edit: for black level correction auto and 3 sounds good.

Luminescente martched apparence results in the Very bad results... I will try others to see

[Asmodian]

Luminescente martched apparence results in the Very bad results... I will try others to see

In what way is it bad?

[Stereodude]

With 95% bo offset I can see the 17-25 flashing, 17 flashes and can be barely seen, in a completely dark room I can see it more clearly, I guess I'll stick with 95% bo offset, another strange thing in the 3dlut is some kind of red color clipping...
I didn't find any shift in black level on my Plasma with the 3D LUTs I made last week. Bar 17 just barely showed up without the 3D LUT and it just barely shows up with the 3D LUT regardless of the offset, whether it's 0% or 100%...

Other bars in the 19-25 range change brightness, but not 17.

For the 3dlut I used this tutorial https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/#3dlut
That's pretty complicated. I just used the madVR 3D preset in the drop down in the latest version of DisplayCAL and used the default options on my LCD. For my plasma I enabled white point compensation.

[CarlosCaco]

In what way is it bad?

The colors became washed out, like a white veil in front the image

But i don t know if is the lut or my tv... I do some tests and not so secure about the levels configuration like i say on madvr thread

I forgot that my tv has an hdmi mode option that have movie and graphics modes
I presume graphic modes with madvr and gpu on full its the right mode graphics mode disable all post processing doing by tv and the black don t crush, but the colors are a little under saturated and tv became more brighter like a white/blue wash on image, the white became stronger and more blue
Also in verifications i m getting only not oks but i have to trie others renders intents... A tried set the calibration settings to calibraste white to 65000k but the whites became with a strong green tint...

[Siso]

I didn't find any shift in black level on my Plasma with the 3D LUTs I made last week. Bar 17 just barely showed up without the 3D LUT and it just barely shows up with the 3D LUT regardless of the offset, whether it's 0% or 100%...

Other bars in the 19-25 range change brightness, but not 17.


That's pretty complicated. I just used the madVR 3D preset in the drop down in the latest version of DisplayCAL and used the default options on my LCD. For my plasma I enabled white point compensation.


With 95% bo offset I can see bar 17-25 flashing, with 100% bo offset I only see 19-25 flashing...the tutorial in that site is good I guess. I'm using the 3dlut for my monitor, I don't own a tv.

[chros]

Also in verifications i m getting only not oks but i have to trie others renders intents...
A tried set the calibration settings to calibraste white to 65000k but the whites became with a strong green tint...
You don't have to experiment different rendering intents: the default is the best if the gamut of the device is smaller than the intended one (which is the case most of the time).
And don't calibrate it to D65 if you don't have controls for it on the device: just set temperature "as measured" and you have to live with that your white is not perfect but you'll get use to it.
How much is it now (you can check it quickly)?

[CarlosCaco]

You don't have to experiment different rendering intents: the default is the best if the gamut of the device is smaller than the intended one (which is the case most of the time).
And don't calibrate it to D65 if you don't have controls for it on the device: just set temperature "as measured" and you have to live with that your white is not perfect but you'll get use to it.
How much is it now (you can check it quickly)?

hey thanks for atention...

here my report using madvr ful intel gpu full and tv in graphic mode ( i think is the full mode on my tv)

3:16:00,246 Black level = 0.4396 cd/m^2
13:16:00,246 50% level = 67.27 cd/m^2
13:16:00,246 White level = 220.13 cd/m^2
13:16:00,247 Aprox. gamma = 1.71
13:16:00,247 Contrast ratio = 501:1
13:16:00,247 White chromaticity coordinates 0.3059, 0.3011
13:16:00,249 White Correlated Color Temperature = 7265K, DE 2K to locus = 10.0
13:16:00,249 White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 7287K, DE 2K to locus = 12.8
13:16:00,250 White Visual Color Temperature = 8104K, DE 2K to locus = 9.5
13:16:00,250 White Visual Daylight Temperature = 8548K, DE 2K to locus = 12.2
__________________

[huhn]

what TV is this?

and the i1d2 is maybe to old to be usable.

[CarlosCaco]

what TV is this?

and the i1d2 is maybe to old to be usable.

My tv is a Philco PH24D21D led, is a cheaper tv here in Brasil...


http://philco.com.br/index.php/produtos/info/1419/TV%20PH24D21D%20LED/

[huhn]

the result could be normal for that screen.

graphic mode is unlikely to be a full range mode.

you should start with this test: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

try a 3D LUT with WTW clipping and set the target to d65.

if you still get a green tint with this the problem should be the meter.

[Asmodian]

I think your brightness might be too high, try turning it down so White level = about 160 cd/m^2 (or even down to ~120 if you are in a pretty dark room). Definitely use as measured for white point and level and set 0 for black level correction. Try the black point hack or compensation, or whatever it is called, too. :o

Your black level is very high, do not use BT.1886 (use gamma, 2.2 for a lighter room or 2.4 for a darker room) and expect some black crush (only ~19+ visible). BT.1886 with a black level that high will look washed out. With a contrast of 500:1 a "correct" calibration will look very washed out. :(

I agree with huhn, that i1d2 might not be useful... but that is a hard TV to calibrate well too.

[CarlosCaco]

I think your brightness might be too high, try turning it down so White level = about 160 cd/m^2 (or even down to ~120 if you are in a pretty dark room). Definitely use as measured for white point and level and set 0 for black level correction. Try the black point hack or compensation, or whatever it is called, too. :o

Your black level is very high, do not use BT.1886 (use gamma, 2.2 for a lighter room or 2.4 for a darker room) and expect some black crush (only ~19+ visible). BT.1886 with a black level that high will look washed out. With a contrast of 500:1 a "correct" calibration will look very washed out. :(

I agree with huhn, that i1d2 might not be useful... but that is a hard TV to calibrate well too.


I did a calibration today before read the answers

I get a good result on verify in dispcall with only withepoint not ok
The resto is ok ok, the best i can get was was with 2.2 relative and black output offset 40 ... By the way only absolute with white point scalling turn my whites green
Only relative intent give me ok ok on reports, all others give-me not ok on reports
No black crushed and 17 bar to above flashs
But on white clipping only 230 and 231 flashs,
I thought graphics mode was full range because in manual was discribed as the mode for computers, but its real too brighter... The tv only has 3 modes graphics and vídeo and auto when set video the image gets overscanned when set auto the image gets correctly just scanned and get the same bright and same level as vídeo mode...
I will post the reports on other moder later... Im really don t know what mode use and want yours opinions But i think i m getting closer to get a decent
Thanks for atention asmodian and hun, here in brasil i don t have anyone to talk about digital vídeo, my friends and my wife don t know nothing about this LOL

[CarlosCaco]

this is the reports on other mode in my tv , very different, i think is more correct

without black bbackground

22:31:45,229 Uncalibrated response:
22:31:45,230 Black level = 0.0859 cd/m^2
22:31:45,230 50% level = 50.89 cd/m^2
22:31:45,230 White level = 198.88 cd/m^2
22:31:45,230 Aprox. gamma = 1.97
22:31:45,230 Contrast ratio = 2316:1
22:31:45,230 White chromaticity coordinates 0.3100, 0.3022
22:31:45,232 White Correlated Color Temperature = 6949K, DE 2K to locus = 11.6
22:31:45,234 White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 6972K, DE 2K to locus = 14.2
22:31:45,234 White Visual Color Temperature = 7891K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
22:31:45,236 White Visual Daylight Temperature = 8326K, DE 2K to locus = 13.5

with black background

22:33:16,970 Uncalibrated response:
22:33:16,970 Black level = 0.0497 cd/m^2
22:33:16,970 50% level = 40.64 cd/m^2
22:33:16,970 White level = 197.05 cd/m^2
22:33:16,970 Aprox. gamma = 2.28
22:33:16,971 Contrast ratio = 3964:1
22:33:16,971 White chromaticity coordinates 0.3105, 0.3024
22:33:16,973 White Correlated Color Temperature = 6914K, DE 2K to locus = 11.7
22:33:16,973 White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 6937K, DE 2K to locus = 14.3
22:33:16,973 White Visual Color Temperature = 7857K, DE 2K to locus = 11.1
22:33:16,973 White Visual Daylight Temperature = 8289K, DE 2K to locus = 13.6


what do you think guys?

[huhn]

the screen is now dimming or something like that.

it is hard to calibrated if the screen is dimming the backlight.
the measured CR should be higher with an black background not the other way around.

try the madLevelsTweaker.exe you can find it in the madVR folder. and test graphics mode again.

and look at this image and tell us what you see: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

[CarlosCaco]

the screen is now dimming or something like that.

it is hard to calibrated if the screen is dimming the backlight.
the measured CR should be higher with an black background not the other way around.

try the madLevelsTweaker.exe you can find it in the madVR folder. and test graphics mode again.

and look at this image and tell us what you see: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

the reports are from video mode that now i think is the correct mode... Its normal that diference between graphics and vídeo mode? Maybe i inverted the reports to with and without blackbackground, i will check and came here to confirm... BTW i was already using madlevelstweaker when did this reports...

I already take a look on the images on the link and with the two modes on full range i can see all squares...

[CarlosCaco]

Hun i checked again and my reports were wrong, i inverted the with without black background, i already edited the post to the right reports...
So now what you guys sugest?

[huhn]

hard to tell i wouldn't try to calibrated a screen with active dimming.

i would disable the dimming feature and calibrated.
after that i would test the dimming.

[CarlosCaco]

hard to tell i wouldn't try to calibrated a screen with active dimming.

i would disable the dimming feature and calibrated.
after that i would test the dimming.

sadly my tv don´t have any dimming feature option to disable :(

its really a bad ideia use the gpu rgb sliders to achieve d65?

[huhn]

just set the white point in dispcalgui to d65 this has the same effect and both lower the CR.

you have an delta e of over 10 there so the white will look more than strange.

your choice.

[CarlosCaco]

just set the white point in dispcalgui to d65 this has the same effect and both lower the CR.

you have an delta e of over 10 there so the white will look more than strange.

your choice.

Not a good choice BTW terrible results... I will have to found someone that have a better colorímeter and wait until i get money do buy a decent tv

[huhn]

the colorimeter isn't a bad one the problem is that it is old.

[markanini]

BT.1886 determines the tone curve of a display device according it's dynamic range. But what if, for any reason, the dynamic range can't be determined and you have to choose predetermined curve?

[huhn]

than the measurements are incorrect too.

[markanini]

than the measurements are incorrect too.
Maybe. I remember reading this article though http://www.chromapure.com/colorscience-gamma.asp and wondering if BT.1886 specified a fallback curve, or on what basis they made the statement "However, if you don't want to bother with a precise BT.1886 calculation, white/black values of 120/0.03 cd/m2 serve as a good rule of thumb.". I think the right context for this question should be devices that aren't color managed but have basic gamma and RGB controls, like some rooted android devices. For HTPCs, of course it's an irrelevant question with MadVr and Dispcal. So what do you think, are chromapure talking out of their ass?

[huhn]

i guess it's about none automatic calibration.
it looks to be pretty old too.

i'm definitely not in a position to say they are wrong.

[e-t172]

Maybe. I remember reading this article though http://www.chromapure.com/colorscience-gamma.asp and wondering if BT.1886 specified a fallback curve, or on what basis they made the statement "However, if you don't want to bother with a precise BT.1886 calculation, white/black values of 120/0.03 cd/m2 serve as a good rule of thumb.".

I can understand the 120 cd/m² white: that's a typical target luminance for calibration. I can't find an original citation for the number, but it appears in most calibration guides (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/calibrating_content.htm#reminder) and even in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candela_per_square_metre).

I have no idea why they would suggest 0.03 cd/m² for black, however. That assumes a 4000:1 CR which is quite high end. Some VA panels will reach that number, but it would have been safer to assume an IPS panel (1000:1, so 0.12 cd/m²) which are more widespread. Though I guess that depends on whether we're talking about TVs or PC monitors.

I think the right context for this question should be devices that aren't color managed but have basic gamma and RGB controls, like some rooted android devices.

That wouldn't make sense. What matters is whether you can measure the actual black and white levels. Adjustments come later. If you can't measure the levels, then you're indeed stuck and you'll need to use "best guess" values. If you can measure the levels, then just use that to calculate the target BT.1886 curve; no need to guess. (Whether you can actually make the device reach that target curve using limited calibration controls, however, is a different story.)

To me this is quite an hypothetical situation: if you can't measure something as basic as black and white levels, then you can't do proper calibration anyway, so the whole discussion is moot.

[markanini]

On a different note, on my low contrast display I got about 2.0 effective gamma with BT.1886 which I wasn't satisfied with. Florian Höch suggested selecting 2.2 relative in DisplayCal and I was pleased with the results. You could spend a lot of time tweaking settings, I know I have, but this seems like a solid first recommendation when someone finds standard BT.1886 to bright, or want's something for general use.

[seiyafan]

If the display's contrast is reduced (i.e. black level is higher than native value) after calibration, what's the usual cause of this and how can it be fixed?

[e-t172]

If the display's contrast is reduced (i.e. black level is higher than native value) after calibration, what's the usual cause of this and how can it be fixed?

Some calibration software will try to correct the 0% white point to align it with the desired white point target (e.g. D65). Since the 0% point is already 0% on all channels, the only way to do that is to add some amount of red, green, or blue, which de facto raises the luminance of the black point, and therefore lowers the contrast ratio of the display.

With good calibration software this should not be a noticeable problem, because the human eye is not good at noticing color differences in very dark tones anyway, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to try to correct 0% black. Sometimes this behavior can be customized. For example, with ArgyllCMS, the dispcal -b (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/dispcal.html#bhack) option can be used to force dispcal to leave 0% black alone.

Note that the same thing can also happen in reverse with 100% white (especially when calibrating toward a specific white point, say D65, as opposed to preserving the natural white point of the display), lowering its luminance and further reducing contrast ratio once again. However, in this case that is intentional and inevitable, since it is a natural consequence of deviating from the native white point of the display. The only way to avoid this is to pick a display that is already close to the desired white point in the first place.

[seiyafan]

Thanks for the explanation. Right now I have a Dell U2415 with a native contrast of about 1000:1, but it goes down to 750:1 after calibrating to a color temperature of 5800K. From what you said the contrast may improve if I calibrate it to say D65?

Another option which I haven't completely understood is the black output offset, I played with different percentages and it did seem to have some effect on the contrast even though not the biggest factor I don't think. Right now I am using 70% output. But how do I know which value is the optimum for a 1000:1 LCD monitor?

Update: You are very smart, I just calibrated to 6500K and contrast went up from 776:1 to 891:1

[Asmodian]

I have a 1000:1 LCD monitor (Acer XB270HU bprz) and my preferred results are 0% output offset and not correcting the black or white points at all, though my display does have an almost perfect D65 white point natively.

The percentage output offset adjusts how fast shadows lighten as you move away from black but does not influence the brightness of pure black. The ideal setting depends on your display and preference; 100% output offset has the darkest shadows. BT.2020 specifies 0% output offset so no detail is lost in the shadows but if your black level is too high this can cause a faded look.

If your white point looks "white" to you normally then don't try to fix it. Human vision adapts to the ambient "white" so small differences in white aren't noticeable after a few minutes. Traditional calibration methods are designed to match monitors to print work, for something like publishing a magazine. Video watchers like us want contrast a lot more than we care about perfectly matching to the appearance of colors in a catalog under natural (or artificial) light.

I know it sounds like you aren't correcting anything if you target the native white and black points but getting everything between them correctly placed relative to them can improve the image a lot without reducing contrast at all. I also suggest at least testing the default perceptual intent. A lot of guides seem to use an absolute intent but there is a reason perceptual is the default. :)

[e-t172]

If your white point looks "white" to you normally then don't try to fix it. Human vision adapts to the ambient "white" so small differences in white aren't noticeable after a few minutes. Traditional calibration methods are designed to match monitors to print work, for something like publishing a magazine. Video watchers like us want contrast a lot more than we care about perfectly matching to the appearance of colors in a catalog under natural (or artificial) light.

That's what you would expect in theory. Unfortunately, while that works great for passive objects, chromatic adaptation doesn't seem to work that well (http://www.color-image.com/2012/02/monitor-calibration-d65-white-point-soft-proofing/) with emissive displays:

The cognitive mechanisms in chromatic adaptation enable an observer to discount the yellow tint cast by D50 illumination on white paper and see the paper as white. This explains why D50 illumination for contract proofs has worked very well for the printing industry for decades. Unfortunately, the cognitive mechanisms in chromatic adaptation do not deliver the same benefits for images viewed on a color CRT computer monitor. [...]

Dr. Fairchild also noted in his research that chromatic adaptation was incomplete for observers who viewed a white patch displayed on a computer monitor with chromaticity coordinates near CIE illuminant A (incandescent light). To the observers, the white patch on the computer monitor retained a yellow appearance. If the observers were able to fully adapt, the patch would have appeared achromatic after complete chromatic adaptation.

Scientific research has shown that D65 is a good white point for color displays, including televisions and color computer monitors. Research has also shown that a color computer monitor calibrated to a D50 white point would retain a yellow appearance—chromatic adaptation would not be complete.

This is also suggested by data in this book (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5WkPPU-toHYC) (§3.5.3, "Preferred white point", page 146):

preferred white point ranges between 5800 and 7000K around a mean value of 6500K

I also suggest at least testing the default perceptual intent. A lot of guides seem to use an absolute intent but there is a reason perceptual is the default. :)

I don't think that's wise, especially if the source gamut of the transform is significantly larger than the colors that are actually present in the image (e.g. BT.2020), because perceptual rendering will try to "make room" for large swaths of the gamut that are seldom used, lower color accuracy and lowering effective gamut for the vast majority of colors that actually do get used.

[seiyafan]

Guess what? I bought a second Dell U2415 and calibrated using the same settings as the first and the contrast went up from 760:1 to 960:1. Problem fixed!
Last time I bought a monitor was in 2013 and I had to go through three before finding a decent one.

[Asmodian]

@e-t172
My calibration recommendation was for the most common situation, like seiyafan's. Displays that are close to D65 with approximately sRGB gamuts displaying BT.709, SMPTE-C, or EBU-PAL content. When displaying very different gamuts or if the display has a very different white point I agree with you, other options are much preferred, there is a reason those options exist too. ;)

That said there is almost no content in BT.2020 right now and you would use a completely different 3DLUT for HDR content anyway (not using the perceptual intent).

D50 is very yellow, yes, but D50 is also VERY far from D65; I have not seen an LCD with a white point even close to D50 in the last five years. All modern displays seem to at least try to have a white point near D65 (most are within that 5800-7000K). If it isn't outside that I suggest not correcting it, e.g. dropping contrast from 1000:1 to 750:1 is definitely not worth it. A perfect D65 looks very similar to 6700K, calibrating a 6700K white point to 6500K often looks worse due to what has to be sacrificed. Use the RGB controls on the display to get as close to 6500K as you can and then calibrate targeting the native white.

[Stereodude]

Guess what? I bought a second Dell U2415 and calibrated using the same settings as the first and the contrast went up from 760:1 to 960:1. Problem fixed!
Last time I bought a monitor was in 2013 and I had to go through three before finding a decent one.
Or you could just use calibration software that allows the black point to be left alone.

[Knight77]

As suggested by Asmodian (thank you) I'll post here the question that I posted in the madVR thread

I've got a 4K TV and madVR set in relation to it.

Recently I changed video card (upgraded to a GTX1070) and used again dispcal to calibrate the TV, I set it to 2.4 gamma with 6500K white point... question is...should I recalibrate it to BT2020?

Now madVR is set "calibrated BT709 with gamma 2.4", if I change it to BT2020 I see that the video is like losing colours, with DCI-P3 I see it like a middle way, while BT709 is the one more colorful (even if with some video sometimes faces look a bit too red but not with all of them so I guess is also related to the way has been shooted).

Can anyone give me some opionion about this? Please :-)

thanks !

[huhn]

are you watch content other than BT 601 or BT 701?

what type of calibration did you make with argyllCMS?

Now madVR is set "calibrated BT709 with gamma 2.4", if I change it to BT2020 I see that the video is like losing colours, with DCI-P3 I see it like a middle way, while BT709 is the one more colorful (even if with some video sometimes faces look a bit too red but not with all of them so I guess is also related to the way has been shooted).

just sit back and thing about this for a second and understand what you are doing here...

[Asmodian]

I would not calibrate to BT.2020, no display available at any price can display BT.2020; it is not meant as a display format (for now).

What gamut is your TV? It sounds like it is a wide gamut based on your comment about skin tones sometimes appearing too red. This is a common issue when watching BT.709 content on a wide gamut display. Which TV exactly?

Current wide gamut displays should be calibrated to DCI-P3, which is what movie theaters use. However this is only true if they can display most or all of DCI-P3. Ideally make a 3DLUT for madVR.

I also suggest not targeting a white point with dispcal (target native), the way calibrating a white point works is by decreasing the max brightness of the colors that are out of balance, reducing contrast. Also colorimeters are often off enough, due to a wide range of new backlights, that the white point isn't really more accurate anyway, there is no point in reducing contrast to add a slightly pink hue.

[Knight77]

I would not calibrate to BT.2020, no display available at any price can display BT.2020; it is not meant as a display format (for now).

What gamut is your TV? It sounds like it is a wide gamut based on your comment about skin tones sometimes appearing too red. This is a common issue when watching BT.709 content on a wide gamut display. Which TV exactly?

Current wide gamut displays should be calibrated to DCI-P3, which is what movie theaters use. However this is only true if they can display most or all of DCI-P3. Ideally make a 3DLUT for madVR.

I also suggest not targeting a white point with dispcal (target native), the way calibrating a white point works is by decreasing the max brightness of the colors that are out of balance, reducing contrast. Also colorimeters are often off enough, due to a wide range of new backlights, that the white point isn't really more accurate anyway, there is no point in reducing contrast to add a slightly pink hue.

Thanks for the reply !

My TV is this one: 65XD93
Sony Website: https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/televisions/xd9405-xd9305-series/specifications

AVForums review: https://www.avforums.com/review/sony-kd-65xd9305-ultra-hd-4k-hdr-tv-review.12267

I guess these lines are relevant in relation to your post

We tested the 65XD93 and it does indeed meet the criteria for Ultra HD Premium certification, with a 10-bit panel, a colour gamut that is over 90% of DCI-P3 and 0.05 to 1,000nits of dynamic range. In fact we measured the colour gamut at just over 91% of DCI-P3, we also measured the native black level at 0.013nits and the maximum brightness on a 10% window at over 1,000 nits.

Although we are still a long way off TVs being able to cover the full Rec.2020 colour gamut, it is used as a container for sources such as Ultra HD Blu-ray. So it's important that an Ultra HD TV can track to the saturation points for Rec.2020 up to the limitations of the panel's native colour gamut. The 65XD93 managed to cover nearly 67% of Rec.2020 and was tracking the saturation points quite closely within the limitations of the panel's native colour gamut. So overall the XD9305 could deliver an excellent HDR performance in terms of our tests and this was borne out by out actual viewing experiences with HDR content.


If you need more info about this I can check the review and paste here more info.

These are the parameters I used in DispcalGUI, note that I didn't create a 3DLut file, if I do it I would change Input Encoding to 0-255. This time I didn't create the 3DLut file because I didn't have enough time, last time the whole process took more than 4 hours.

http://i.imgur.com/xMUqyuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/naYRdev.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6ogHBva.jpg

Hope all this can help and again...thanks for the help !

[huhn]

calibration:
do not set a brightness setting leave it at "as measured"
just leave calibration page at default these setting are chosen for a reason.

if you want 120 CM² you should fix that before calibration same for white point.

profiling:
same for profiling you have selected 57 patches that is nothing.
the default settings are ok try them.

3D LUT:
you need a BT 709 3D LUT for madVR so you have to create one.
you can create a second 3D LUT for DCI P3 and even a BT 2020 too if you like too.

do not change the input encoding. leave it at 16-235.

tone curve.
there is a lot to say here and it depends a lot on your room brightness conditions and screen.

well you have to find that out by your self.
just create multiply BT 709 3D LUT and try them out.
i would start with normal BT 2020 and normal gamma 2.4.

[Asmodian]

As usual huhn has great advice, I agree completely. I do want to add bold to the same for white point but setting a brightness with a software calibration is even worse, it simply reduces contrast for nothing.

[Knight77]

Thanks for the feedback. I set everything to default.

I usually watch TV in a dark room, the only light is a slim LED light strip behind the TV which is 6500K. So I guess the the best time curve is gamma 2.4.

Just one thing is not 100% clear:

well you have to find that out by your self.
just create multiply BT 709 3D LUT and try them out.
i would start with normal BT 2020 and normal gamma 2.4.

So in calibration should I use 2.4 in tone curve or BT 709 or BT 2020? I know that I can create more 3D Lut but should I change the setting also in calibration or just in the 3DLut setting? I mean I understand setting gamma 2.4 in calibration and BT709 in the 3DLut page but if I need to create a BT2020 3DLut should I also change it in the calibration page?

Hope I could explain my doubt.

Thanks again for your support high and Asmodian.

[Asmodian]

Use BT.2020 tone curve with power at the standard 2.4 (might be BT.2020 without a custom power set at all).

Just change it in the 3DLUT page.

[huhn]

So in calibration should I use 2.4 in tone curve or BT 709 or BT 2020? I know that I can create more 3D Lut but should I change the setting also in calibration or just in the 3DLut setting? I mean I understand setting gamma 2.4 in calibration and BT709 in the 3DLut page but if I need to create a BT2020 3DLut should I also change it in the calibration page?

select setting -> Video 3D LUT for madVR... and leave the calibration settings as they are and that is as maesured.

make sure you have disabled all picture processing stuff in your TV and that means you have to disable backlight dimming and stuff like that too!

if you want to use bigger colorspaces make sure your TV uses this native color space. that may be called BT 2020 DCI p3 or something like "native".

use a profiling setting you can leave with. i personal use ~13000 patches there is no need for so many but you have to run this only one time. the default settings of ~1500 patches should be fine.

this will create readings you can use for as many 3D LUT as you want. creating a 3D LUt from these readings takes about 5 mins. you can use the tool 3DLUT maker to create more 3D LUTs it is part of displaycal so you have this tool already.

you newer touch the settings under "calibration" there is no need for that.

[Knight77]

select setting -> Video 3D LUT for madVR... and leave the calibration settings as they are and that is as maesured.

make sure you have disabled all picture processing stuff in your TV and that means you have to disable backlight dimming and stuff like that too!

if you want to use bigger colorspaces make sure your TV uses this native color space. that may be called BT 2020 DCI p3 or something like "native".

use a profiling setting you can leave with. i personal use ~13000 patches there is no need for so many but you have to run this only one time. the default settings of ~1500 patches should be fine.

this will create readings you can use for as many 3D LUT as you want. creating a 3D LUt from these readings takes about 5 mins. you can use the tool 3DLUT maker to create more 3D LUTs it is part of displaycal so you have this tool already.

you newer touch the settings under "calibration" there is no need for that.


Thank you huhn and Asmodian for the indications. I followed everything and created my 3DLut with the Madvr settings. After that, from the same 3DLut creation page I created other two: BT2020 with Gamma 2.4 (absolute) and another one DCI-P3 with Gamma 2.4 (absolute). In the end I loaded the three profiles in the 3DLut page of madVR.

About my TV and the color space, I cannot choose a "Native". I could choose between Auto, BT709, BT2020 and DCI, I left it on "Auto" for the calibration and deactivated the backlight (the other pic processing were already off).

The only two remaining doubts are:

1) My TV allow me to calibrate 10 point gamma, but I don't know how to implement/perform this with Displaycal

2) When the calibration has finished it showed a little report saying that the calibration (my TV) covered like 96% of the sRGB and about 66% of the DCI space. But in every review they say that after calibration the TV covers about 96% of DCI space.... what's wrong? IF there is anything wrong.

Thank you again, your advices are precious.

[huhn]

you should have selected BT 2020 or DCI P3 before calibration.

[Asmodian]

1) My TV allow me to calibrate 10 point gamma, but I don't know how to implement/perform this with Displaycal

2) When the calibration has finished it showed a little report saying that the calibration (my TV) covered like 96% of the sRGB and about 66% of the DCI space. But in every review they say that after calibration the TV covers about 96% of DCI space.... what's wrong? IF there is anything wrong.

Thank you again, your advices are precious.

1) I don't either, on your TV, but you will need to recalibrate again if you do it. Letting madVR handle gamma calibration is fine, unless you use other inputs sometimes.

2) "Auto" must have put your TV into BT709 (sRGB), try DCI if you want a wide gamut, but again you will need to completely redo the calibration for madVR.

[Knight77]

you should have selected BT 2020 or DCI P3 before calibration.

1) I don't either, on your TV, but you will need to recalibrate again if you do it. Letting madVR handle gamma calibration is fine, unless you use other inputs sometimes.

2) "Auto" must have put your TV into BT709 (sRGB), try DCI if you want a wide gamut, but again you will need to completely redo the calibration for madVR.

Aaaaaand I'll do it again with DCI selected :(

:D

[Knight77]

you should have selected BT 2020 or DCI P3 before calibration.

2) "Auto" must have put your TV into BT709 (sRGB), try DCI if you want a wide gamut, but again you will need to completely redo the calibration for madVR.

Thank again for all the patience and support.

Ok, calibration remade with DCI-P3 selected on TV and the madVR profile config in Displaycal, meaning BT709 and 1186. Now in the end it shows that has been covered about 88% of the DCI-P3 colorspace (and like 124% sRGB), much closer to the professinal review you can find online.

But what now with madVR? I mean if I upload the three 3DLuts (BT709, DCI-P3 and BT2020) and leave my TV color space on "Auto" I understand it choose the BT709 also because the video info (ctrl+J) of madVR shows BT709....BUT if in the TV settings I choose DCI-P3 I have richer colors.
Don't know what it is right (close to the reality) to choose...leave it on "Auto" and get the BT709 colorspace or choose the DCI-P3 and like take advantage of the wider gamma?

Obviously, using an HTPC, when I'm not using madVR/MPHC this choice also influence the normal screens in Windows and other programs.

Thanks again !

[huhn]

you have created 3D LUT for the DCI P3 setting in your TV so you have to leave it at DCI P3 for correct colors in madVR.

the colors oudside of madVR are wrong anyway.

[Knight77]

you have created 3D LUT for the DCI P3 setting in your TV so you have to leave it at DCI P3 for correct colors in madVR.

the colors oudside of madVR are wrong anyway.

Well I also created a 3DLut for BT709, actually is the first one created by DisplayCal and the video I play are identified as BT709 by madVR... Indeed I have loaded both of them in madVR and when it plays it use the 3DLut BT709 the difference I can see it only if the in the TV color space settings I choose DCI instead of BT709, when I do it colors are "stronger", more satured. The effect is cooler for sure but after some test I feel they might not be totally "realistic" with some images.

Point is...Which one is the correct one?

I found a bit weird using DCI color space in TV settings then calibrate with madVR default settings with BT709 , but I get that is done to take advantage of the wide gamut of the TV. Mainly my doubt is now related to what is correct to use while watching movies using BT709.

[Asmodian]

Point is...Which one is the correct one?

I found a bit weird using DCI color space in TV settings then calibrate with madVR default settings with BT709 , but I get that is done to take advantage of the wide gamut of the TV. Mainly my doubt is now related to what is correct to use while watching movies using BT709.

The correct way is to leave your TV in DCI mode, not auto or anything else.

There are two sides to a 3DLUT, the input and the output. The different 3DLUTs you are making have different inputs but they all output to the same display with the same calibration.

With your TV in DCI mode:
The BT.709 3DLUT takes the color values from a BT.709 bluray and changes them slightly so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.
The DCI-P3 3DLUT takes the color values from a DCI-P3 HDR video and changes them less (your TV is closer to DCI-P3 in DCI mode) so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.

This is why you have to calibrate your display first and then read a lot of different color patches. You are building a model of exactly what color your display will create when given particular color values. You cannot change any setting on your TV after you do it and still get correct results.

If you calibrate with the TV in DCI-P3 but then watch something with it in BT.709 everything will be undersaturated.

Edit: An interesting option is to not calibrate your display at all but simply profile it. This way Windows and everything else doesn't have a calibration, but with the 3DLUT madVR does. The 3DLUT does the job of both calibration and gamut correction/conversion. In my testing I did get better quality in madVR when using a calibration too, but both ways worked well.

[Knight77]

The correct way is to leave your TV in DCI mode, not auto or anything else.

There are two sides to a 3DLUT, the input and the output. The different 3DLUTs you are making have different inputs but they all output to the same display with the same calibration.

With your TV in DCI mode:
The BT.709 3DLUT takes the color values from a BT.709 bluray and changes them slightly so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.
The DCI-P3 3DLUT takes the color values from a DCI-P3 HDR video and changes them less (your TV is closer to DCI-P3 in DCI mode) so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.

This is why you have to calibrate your display first and then read a lot of different color patches. You are building a model of exactly what color your display will create when given particular color values. You cannot change any setting on your TV after you do it and still get correct results.

If you calibrate with the TV in DCI-P3 but then watch something with it in BT.709 everything will be undersaturated.

Edit: An interesting option is to not calibrate your display at all but simply profile it. This way Windows and everything else doesn't have a calibration, but with the 3DLUT madVR does. The 3DLUT does the job of both calibration and gamut correction/conversion. In my testing I did get better quality in madVR when using a calibration too, but both ways worked well.

Asmodian thanks for the explanation. So to make it clear (maybe useful also for other people) the correct process is:

- Set the TV to DCI-P3
- Make a calibration with DisplayCal with madVR settings, meaning it will create a BT709+1886 3DLut
- After this, with the same calibration data, create a 3DLut for DCI-P3
- Load both the 3DLuts in madVR and let the TV in DCI-P3 color space
- It's not necessary to load the profile in Windows (right?)

With the current content (BT709) ,the DCI-P3 3DLut in madVR is ignored, but anyway it it correct to use DCI-P3 color space TV setting. Right?

With your TV in DCI mode:
The BT.709 3DLUT takes the color values from a BT.709 bluray and changes them slightly so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.
The DCI-P3 3DLUT takes the color values from a DCI-P3 HDR video and changes them less (your TV is closer to DCI-P3 in DCI mode) so you get as close as possible to the correct color, brightness, and saturation on your display.

You're talking about the two 3DLuts in madVR right? With DCI calibration, when watching a BT709 video and TV in DCI the effect is really good and cool but in some scenes look like a bit pushed, just that.

Thanks again for all the info, I'm quite sure that you're getting bored by me but this will also help other users here :-)

[huhn]

You're talking about the two 3DLuts in madVR right? With DCI calibration, when watching a BT709 video and TV in DCI the effect is really good and cool but in some scenes look like a bit pushed, just that.

the BT 709 3d lut is made to map the colors of your TV in this case your DCI P3 TV colorspace to BT 709.

if the colors are still off that means the calibration failed.
if the calibration isn't wrong than the result is the creators intend.

[Arm3nian]

No response on the madVR thread so ill post this here:

Is it recommended to use "process HDR content" without an HDR display?

When I specify a 3DLUT, for any of the 2 options on the hdr page, it says wrong input/format for madvr.

Do I make a bt.709 lut or a bt.2020 lut for bt.2020 content on a normal gamut display (100% srgb)?

Thanks

[huhn]

you need a smpte 2084 3D LUT

[bFooz]

For those who would like to use flux but it does not work with a calibration method/software you use, this is a similar program and even better in some cases: http://www.skytopia.com/software/sunsetscreen/

[Oguignant]

Hello, anyone with experience with calman 5 to create the 3dlut? When I create u 3dlut of 5,000 or 10,000 points, the 100% cyan color is left with a deltae of 17. The other colors are fine. I only have problems with 100% cyan. What I can be doing wrong? Even in the pre-calibration the 100% cyan color deltae is only 2.9...

look the pre-calibration
http://i.imgur.com/RH8ZNVdh.png

[Oguignant]

Calman 5 Enthousiast vs DisplayCal? Which is better to create 3d lut? Does anyone know or have experience?

[Asmodian]

I use argyllcms via command line but only because I do not own Calman.

I suggest trying a calibration with DisplayCal, you can test the various intents to get an idea of how perceptual compares to absolute.

Calman may be deciding that sacrificing cyan accuracy is worth it for some other aspect of the image but it is hard to know because I don't have any experience with Calman.

[Oguignant]

I use argyllcms via command line but only because I do not own Calman.

I suggest trying a calibration with DisplayCal, you can test the various intents to get an idea of how perceptual compares to absolute.

Calman may be deciding that sacrificing cyan accuracy is worth it for some other aspect of the image but it is hard to know because I don't have any experience with Calman.

I found other options to create the 3d lut. Fast 700p, standard 1400p, detailed 17000p or custom. They are better than using the other options and I have no problem with 100% cyan color.

[Asmodian]

Those are the patch counts, I am curious if there are any options for intent.

I would use standard, especially if all your colors are good when using it. Over 1400 patches has diminishing returns and can even cause issues with some displays.

[Oguignant]

Those are the patch counts, I am curious if there are any options for intent.

I would use standard, especially if all your colors are good when using it. Over 1400 patches has diminishing returns and can even cause issues with some displays.

I use the detailed option of 17,000 points. It takes about 5 hours to create the 3d lut with an avg of 0.3. DisplayCal is better than Calman? There is very little documentation about calman.

[Asmodian]

That is probably too many patches, you are likely to get better results using the standard 1400.
Edit: If you have a good 3DLUT now there is no need to create a new one.

DisplayCal is open source (free) but donations are appreciated. Calman is quite expensive so one would hope it was better but Argyllcms (what DisplayCal uses to do the calibration) has improved a lot in the last couple of years, it is very good now. Not that is was bad before but it used to have minor banding sometimes because it prioritized accuracy over everything, now it is willing to reduce accuracy a tiny bit to avoid any banding, which is a big improvement visually. I have never seen any direct comparisons of the current versions of both on multiple display types to be able to judge which one was better.

Don't worry too much about small changes in dE, 0.5 dE is not noticeably worse than 0.3 dE. Things like contrast, saturation, and banding are as, if not more, important for watching video.

DisplayCal also allows a lot more control of the calibration, it has lots of options to prioritize different aspects.

[Oguignant]

That is probably too many patches, you are likely to get better results using the standard 1400.
Edit: If you have a good 3DLUT now there is no need to create a new one.

DisplayCal is open source (free) but donations are appreciated. Calman is quite expensive so one would hope it was better but Argyllcms (what DisplayCal uses to do the calibration) has improved a lot in the last couple of years, it is very good now. Not that is was bad before but it used to have minor banding sometimes because it prioritized accuracy over everything, now it is willing to reduce accuracy a tiny bit to avoid any banding, which is a big improvement visually. I have never seen any direct comparisons of the current versions of both on multiple display types to be able to judge which one was better.

Don't worry too much about small changes in dE, 0.5 dE is not noticeably worse than 0.3 dE. Things like contrast, saturation, and banding are as, if not more, important for watching video.

DisplayCal also allows a lot more control of the calibration, it has lots of options to prioritize different aspects.

I'm using DisplayCal now. Calman is great for Tv calibration. To calibrate tv as a monitor, is poor. Displaycal is much better for automatic calibration. I think because it creates a lut + matrix profile. Calman only creates a matrix profile and is not very precise. I use Calman to do a 2-point calibration and then create a profile with DisplayCal. It really looks fabulous.

To create 3d lut for Madvr how should I do it? Creating it from the yxz matrix profile that already caliber? Or is there another way?

Where I can find an advanced guide that explains all the options of DisplayCal (in detail) and also a guide on how to create the 3dlut file for Madvr. I think for a tv oled should make some adjustments in the options.

[VBB]

Where I can find an advanced guide that explains all the options of DisplayCal (in detail) and also a guide on how to create the 3dlut file for Madvr. I think for a tv oled should make some adjustments in the options.

See here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html

Florian, the developer, posts regularly and answers questions/helps with issues. Madshi is also fairly active over there, as is the developer of ArgyllCMS.

[Arm3nian]

A correction was uploaded for my specific display a few days ago. But it says matrix. And it gives quite different results compared to the generic spectrals I was using. Any one have more information on this?

[heimerdinger]

I ended up returning the VP2780-4k. I wasn't happy with it. Cost $100 to ship it all the way to New York from Las Vegas but it's better than paying $700+ for something that doesn't impress you.

I ended up getting the PG279q. A lot of units have QC issues, but they seem to be getting better. Mine doesn't have anything serious, but it does have some uniformity issues. They're all over the monitor when you look for it on lets say a red background. The most noticeable is on a white background when on web pages, where the top 30% looks significantly more dim than the rest.

I don't think the PG279q comes factory calibrated, but after my i1 pro and dispcal calibration, the difference was obvious. A single windows calibration looked better than all the profiles and 3d luts I made with the previous display. The contrast is also really good, 1200+ after calibration, and blacks look nice for an IPS.

The gaming features are a little gimmicky imho. The display goes up to 165Hz, but it's hard to notice much difference after 120Hz, maybe even before it. ULMB pwm flicker just makes my head hurt after 5 min of use, and has ridiculous ghosting, making it unusable. Gsync is cool, but it's badly implemented on the software side. Blizzard games for examples don't work properly with it. For diablo 3, you need to enable vsync in game and turn off fps cap for it to work, which causes micro stuttering .
In WoW, the fps limiter in game is completely broken, and 3rd party doesn't work correctly with the engine. My 980ti can easily maintain 165fps in a specific area (and the game in general), but it drops to 128-153 randomly in the same exact area with the gpu at 65% load and the cpu at 23%. In more demanding games, you don't get a huge stutter, but I can still feel choppiness when it drops to 60's. That's the biggest problem with high refresh rate. After 165Hz, 60Hz is disgusting until your brain adjusts. 1440p is nice. I sit about about a foot away, and often can notice the pixels, where it was impossible to on 4k. But at least I don't have to deal with scaling issues.




Business reporting and analytics become incredibly difficult and getting a holistic view of your business can seem impossible. Under these circumstances, the need for an intelligent, automated order management system is more important than ever. That order management system must be agile and it must be integrated with, or be part of your overall eCommerce management system in order to deliver a true omnichannel experience.
Order management refers to the entire order process including product listing, inventory management, order placement and processing, billing, payment collection, fulfillment, shipping management, CRM and communication. But we will focus here specifically on the order processing part of the process. There are several eCommerce OMS’s available (of which ours is just one) but we won’t be biased and instead we’ll just focus on the top tips for best practice.Order fulfillment systems (https://www.magestore.com/order-fulfillment-management)

Advantages of an Omni-Channel POS

Optimize your operations and engage your modern visitors by upgrading to an omni-channel
point-of-sale solution for your museum or attractions business. The advantages of centralizing operations with a comprehensive point-of-sale system, like NCR Counterpoint, include:

Integrated Sales Channels – Analyzing information stored in silos provides only a partial view customer behavior. Omni-channel point-of-sale systems unify your data on a single platform, so you can gain key insight into your customers’ buyer journeys and streamline your services to meet their specific needs.
Magestore Web-based POS (https://www.magestore.com/webpos)
Customer Engagement Solutions – Connect with your guests with tools like loyalty programs and customer feedback surveys. Understanding when and how visitors are currently interacting with your museum allows you to send personalized messages and offers to keep customers engaged and returning for more.
Increased Speed of Service & Mobile Sales – New visitors demand the same-level of service and efficiency they are used to receiving online. With mobile and online ordering and payment capabilities, you’ll be able to increase your speed of service and handle peak periods with ease to keep your customers happy.
As a museum retailer, you need to be able to conform to the demands of the modern museum visitor, and that means having a point-of-sale system that can manage everything – from ticketing and sales to customer tracking and membership programs. Bringing your museum into the digital age doesn’t have to be complicated. RCS is available to help you understand how a customized, omni-channel point-of-sale system can help you to better manage your museum operations.

:scared:






Aheadworks (https://blog.magestore.com/aheadworks-partnership)

[chros]

A correction was uploaded for my specific display a few days ago. But it says matrix. And it gives quite different results compared to the generic spectrals I was using. Any one have more information on this?
Well, matrix is supposed to be used if You have created it for the given display. If you want to use others' you'll never get proper results.

[Siso]

A correction was uploaded for my specific display a few days ago. But it says matrix. And it gives quite different results compared to the generic spectrals I was using. Any one have more information on this?

I would suggest using the spectral correction.

[x7007]

If I have LG55C6 OLED TV , I've set BT.1886 and everything look good with it. should I also change MadVR in Calibration to BT.709 Pure power curve 2.40 ? do I need to disable GPU gamma ramps ? I didn't touch the GPU driver gamma.


Do I need to enable Color&gamma if I just use calibration one or just one of them ?

[huhn]

Is there a need to use the Madvr reduce ringing artifacts ? because this thing takes 15 ms on rendering time.
not sure what this has todo with calibration

If I have LG55C6 OLED TV , I've set BT.1886 and everything look good with it. should I also change MadVR in Calibration to BT.709 Pure power curve 2.40 ? do I need to disable GPU gamma ramps ? I didn't touch the GPU driver gamma.
what? are you setting. setting a TV to bt709 or bt1886(which doesn't really exist for OLED) that doesn't mean the TV is now calibrated to Bt709 or Bt1886

Do I need to enable Color&gamma if I just use calibration one or just one of them ?
depends on what you want. if your screen si calibrated to 2.4 and you don't set both "this display is already calibrated" to gamma 2.4 and color and gamma processing to 2.4 you >may< not get 2.4 gamma.

it's pretty complicated and pretty simple at the same time.

[x7007]

not sure what this has todo with calibration


what? are you setting. setting a TV to bt709 or bt1886(which doesn't really exist for OLED) that doesn't mean the TV is now calibrated to Bt709 or Bt1886


depends on what you want. if your screen si calibrated to 2.4 and you don't set both "this display is already calibrated" to gamma 2.4 and color and gamma processing to 2.4 you >may< not get 2.4 gamma.

it's pretty complicated and pretty simple at the same time.

ha, I deleted the first one .

What I meant is the TV has Gamma option for 2.2 and BT.1886 .

In Madvr I choose this device is already calibrated and 2.4 which mean I will get 2.4 ? well ye . but I must to do it if I choose BT.1886, because if I don't it will be 2.2 or somewhere around it and not the right one that I set, because I see the changes on the video, 2.4 looks better.

[huhn]

sorry but a gamma option in a TV is worthless without proper calibration.

BT 1886 is gamma 2.4 on an OLED.
without gamma processing nothing happen under calibration.

without measuring your gamma you are just playing around.

if you set gamma 2.4 under calibration and gamma 2.2 under gamma processing the gamma will be lowered to 2.20 on a perfectly 2.4 gamma calibrated screen.

[x7007]

sorry but a gamma option in a TV is worthless without proper calibration.

BT 1886 is gamma 2.4 on an OLED.
without gamma processing nothing happen under calibration.

without measuring your gamma you are just playing around.

if you set gamma 2.4 under calibration and gamma 2.2 under gamma processing the gamma will be lowered to 2.20 on a perfectly 2.4 gamma calibrated screen.

I know BT 1886 is gamma 2.4 .

Proper calibration you mean I need to use 400$ device to calibrate ? isn't it enough just to set on the TV BT 1886 on the TV and set Calibration this tv has been calibrated 2.4 power curve . and gamma processing to 2.4 power curve ?

You are explaining something but not explaining everything, I just trying to understand what I eventually need to do . I still don't know what are my options .

[Asmodian]

It depends on the TV, some are quite accurate and some are terrible.

If you don't use "color and gamma" only the gamut option there is important, and that has nothing to do with the gamma option on your TV. There is no reason to use "color and gamma" to set a gamma unless you want something besides your TV's native gamma.

My TV (LG OLED55C7P) has a reasonably accurate pure power 2.4 when set to "BT.1886" so that would be a good option for me but because that option doesn't do anything it isn't important to set it.

However, the right gamut option is important. My uncalibrated gamut (out of the box) was reasonably accurate and close to DCI-P3, only slightly undersaturated, when set to "wide" gamut. When set to "enhanced" gamut and it is actually pretty close to BT.709, but less accurate and slightly oversaturated.

I wouldn't know any of this without a meter and I am not sure how similar the C7 is to the C6. :o

[x7007]

It depends on the TV, some are quite accurate and some are terrible.

If you don't use "color and gamma" only the gamut option there is important, and that has nothing to do with the gamma option on your TV. There is no reason to use "color and gamma" to set a gamma unless you want something besides your TV's native gamma.

My TV (LG OLED55C7P) has a reasonably accurate pure power 2.4 when set to "BT.1886" so that would be a good option for me but because that option doesn't do anything it isn't important to set it.



However, the right gamut option is important. My uncalibrated gamut (out of the box) was reasonably accurate and close to DCI-P3, only slightly undersaturated, when set to "wide" gamut. When set to "enhanced" gamut and it is actually pretty close to BT.709, but less accurate and slightly oversaturated.

I wouldn't know any of this without a meter and I am not sure how similar the C7 is to the C6. :o


You suppose to use the AUTO on the C7 , for HDR and also for Bluray. you only use WIDE when using Dolby Vision.
For C6 it's NORMAL , WIDE is trying to use DCI-P3 color gamut and if you try to watch movie bluray BT.601 or BT.709 then it ruins the red colours, also HDR you want NORMAL. you only use WIDE on DCI-P3 which is dolby vision and this one uses this color gamut.
https://youtu.be/hGtBfcokfto?t=6s
So they only setting I need to change is this monitor is calibrated ?

Because when I only use Color & Gamma then I see something changes when choosing 2.40 or 2.2 I see it becomes darker.

What is the Calibration is good for when choosing this display is already calibrated ? with BT.709 gamut and pure power curve 2.40 ? which the TV is set to BT 1886 which is 2.40 .

I don't understand if it actually do something when I don't see any visible difference, but I do see different when changing the color & Gamma.

I mean Madvr already knows it's BT.709 so I calibrated it to it. I don't know exactly how close it is to 2.40 , but what does it actually do if I don't see any change in the picture ?
When , why people need to use it ?

[Asmodian]

You suppose to use the AUTO on the C7 , for HDR and also for Bluray. you only use WIDE when using Dolby Vision.
For C6 it's NORMAL , WIDE is trying to use DCI-P3 color gamut and if you try to watch movie bluray BT.601 or BT.709 then it ruins the red colours, also HDR you want NORMAL. you only use WIDE on DCI-P3 which is dolby vision and this one uses this color gamut.

It is very different when using a 3DLUT. ;)

I use a meter to setup the TV to be as accurate as possible with its wide gamut (which it is naturally more accurate in too). I then use Calman to profile the TV (measure 3000 different color patches) and build a 256x256x256 lookup table so madVR can map every color to the native gamut of the TV as accurately as possible. This way BT.709 is perfect BT.709, BT.601 is perfect BT.601, EBU/PAL is perfect EBU/PAL, and DCI-P3 is perfect DCI-P3. :)

So they only setting I need to change is this monitor is calibrated ?

Yes.

What is the Calibration is good for when choosing this display is already calibrated ? with BT.709 gamut and pure power curve 2.40 ? which the TV is set to BT 1886 which is 2.40 .

The gamut is important and has nothing to do with the gamma, they are independent settings. Since you set your TV's gamut to "normal" BT.709 is the correct gamut. If you set your TV to "wide" DCI-P3 would be the correct gamut. madVR will convert content with other gamuts to look correct in your calibrated gamut, like with a 3DLUT except it assumes a perfect gamut instead of having measurements.

I don't understand if it actually do something when I don't see any visible difference, but I do see different when changing the color & Gamma.

I mean Madvr already knows it's BT.709 so I calibrated it to it. I don't know exactly how close it is to 2.40 , but what does it actually do if I don't see any change in the picture ?
When , why people need to use it ?

You would use "color and gamma" if you wanted to change the gamma sometimes without re-calibrating your TV.

Since you chose BT.1886 for gamma on your TV you would set your display to an already calibrated pure power 2.4. Then in "color & gamma" you could set it to a 2.2 gamma when your room was brighter during the day. madVR changes the picture so that when displayed on your TV's native gamma it looks like a gamma of 2.2 instead.

[x7007]

It is very different when using a 3DLUT. ;)

I use a meter to setup the TV to be as accurate as possible with its wide gamut (which it is naturally more accurate in too). I then use Calman to profile the TV (measure 3000 different color patches) and build a 256x256x256 lookup table so madVR can map every color to the native gamut of the TV as accurately as possible. This way BT.709 is perfect BT.709, BT.601 is perfect BT.601, EBU/PAL is perfect EBU/PAL, and DCI-P3 is perfect DCI-P3. :)



Yes.



The gamut is important and has nothing to do with the gamma, they are independent settings. Since you set your TV's gamut to "normal" BT.709 is the correct gamut. If you set your TV to "wide" DCI-P3 would be the correct gamut. madVR will convert content with other gamuts to look correct in your calibrated gamut, like with a 3DLUT except it assumes a perfect gamut instead of having measurements.



You would use "color and gamma" if you wanted to change the gamma sometimes without re-calibrating your TV.

Since you chose BT.1886 for gamma on your TV you would set your display to an already calibrated pure power 2.4. Then in "color & gamma" you could set it to a 2.2 gamma when your room was brighter during the day. madVR changes the picture so that when displayed on your TV's native gamma it looks like a gamma of 2.2 instead.


So if I'm already using 2.4 on the TV and I want 2.4 from Madvr then I need to put already calibrated or not calibrated ? would that make any different ?

If I always want 2.4 and not need for 2.2 because 2.4 looks better then I would need to use use color and gamma or only when I want to change to say from 2.4 to 2.2 like you said ? there is no need to put 2.4 if I use 2.4 ?

Those 2 questions are the ones I'm looking for overall. is that really needed because I don't understand what no calibrated and already calibrated are doing, it looks the same to me from info details and picture details. so I can't notice any different .
The real question is what is the Already calibrated good for compared to the no calibrated . and if so 2.4 is what I want then I don't need color & Gamma because I don't want to change to other gamma say 2.2 from 2.4 ?

[Asmodian]

So if I'm already using 2.4 on the TV and I want 2.4 from Madvr then I need to put already calibrated or not calibrated ? would that make any different ?

Put already calibrated BT.709 gamut. No, it will not make any difference.

If I always want 2.4 and not need for 2.2 because 2.4 looks better then I would need to use use color and gamma or only when I want to change to say from 2.4 to 2.2 like you said ? there is no need to put 2.4 if I use 2.4 ?

If you don't want to change your gamma do not use that setting.

Do not set anything in "color & gamma", leave it disabled.

The real question is what is the Already calibrated good for compared to the no calibrated . and if so 2.4 is what I want then I don't need color & Gamma because I don't want to change to other gamma say 2.2 from 2.4 ?

I have tried to answer this a few times, what didn't you understand in my last post?

No calibrated and already calibrated are actually the same in your case, no calibrated assumes a BT.709 gamut and the gamma setting doesn't do anything unless you want to change your gamma with "color & gamma".

[hajosattila]

sorry for my bad English guys!

I have calibrated my Tv display for gamma bt1886. (CALMAN image attached) How should I configure madvr? Pure power curve 2.30 or 2.40 OR :) forget BT.1886 and do I calibrate power pure 2.4? (Contrast Ratio 4235)
I do not want to use 3D LUT for now...

Thanks in advice!

[Asmodian]

That setting in madVR is not important. It will change nothing.

Unless you also use "color & gamma" to change your gamma away from your calibration. The setting in calibration only lets madVR know how to change your gamma to something else, if you want to, nothing else.

The correct setting in madVR for BT.1866 is pure power 2.4.

I recommend you stay with your BT.1886 calibration, though I cannot see your attachment yet. It is better to post a link to an image instead of attaching it. :)

[hajosattila]

Thank you Asmodian! Here is the link: https://i.imgur.com/FfXz1Tc.jpg

5% black level: The TV does not support it 5% increments. (only 10pt... 10 - 100% in 10% increments) I can not fix this... :/

The correct setting in madVR for BT.1866 is pure power 2.4.

That's for sure?

Thanks

[Asmodian]

That looks good, without finer steps it is basically a perfect BT.1886 gamma, but <10% is where gamma issues usually happen. ;)

Do not worry about it if it looks good.


That's for sure?


Yes, BT.1886 is pure power 2.4 gamma but for displays with black > 0 nits (it adapts to your display). When having madVR change your gamma mathematically to a different pure power gamma it should think your display is currently pure power 2.4. Do not use "color & gamma" to change your display to a BT.709 gamma (do not use that gamma period). If you are not changing your gamma this way it is not important.

[hajosattila]

That looks good, without finer steps it is basically a perfect BT.1886 gamma, but <10% is where gamma issues usually happen. ;)

Do not worry about it if it looks good.



Yes, BT.1886 is pure power 2.4 gamma but for displays with black > 0 nits (it adapts to your display). When having madVR change your gamma mathematically to a different pure power gamma it should think your display is currently pure power 2.4. Do not use "color & gamma" to change your display to a BT.709 gamma (do not use that gamma period). If you are not changing your gamma this way it is not important.

finally this is the correct setting: https://i.imgur.com/jOZ7EUZ.jpg | https://i.imgur.com/Hbl0xmi.jpg (inactive)

Would you confirm to me? :D:thanks:

[Asmodian]

Yes, both those settings pages are correct. :)

[hajosattila]

Yes, both those settings pages are correct. :)

Thanks for you're help!

[hajosattila]

Other (CALMAN) question: Which pattern size do you recommend for a 55' white LED display? (55H6500 TV/CALMAN Home Advanced)

Thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/IfCXPIE.jpg

[chros]

Other (CALMAN) question: Which pattern size do you recommend for a 55' white LED display? (55H6500 TV/CALMAN Home Advanced)
Hi Attila!

A very few people use Calman here, as I mentioned we usually use 3dlut created by DisplayCal. Even with that you cannot achieve perfect result (but good one), so you don't have to worry about the "old" way at all :)
I think it's good to go with half (or more) of the size of your screen.

[Asmodian]

Other (CALMAN) question: Which pattern size do you recommend for a 55' white LED display? (55H6500 TV/CALMAN Home Advanced)

Thanks!

I use 25% with Calman, Constant APL 25 is good unless your TV goes into a low power mode if the APL doesn’t change for too long.

Constant APL is not important for your TV, in fact pattern choice is not important for your TV, any of them will give you the same results.

LCDs without a dynamic backlight or local dimming are easy to calibrate. :)

Oh, you mean the slider? I believe I used 100? Does that setting exist with madVR’s pattern generator? :o

[hajosattila]

@Asmodian | @chros Thank you!!

Calibration is complete! but unfortunately there are a lot of blue and red colors.
I tried it several times, but I could not solve the problem.

https://i.imgur.com/NXSForX.jpg

ps.: I'll make a 3D LUT file later, but first I want to calibrate the TV. (learning)

[Asmodian]

A lot of blue and red colors?

Do you mean your red and blue primaries are off? Primary colors are often off, they generally are not changed by in device calibrations because they are dependent on the backlight. What color is the backlight if the LCD filters out all the blue and green light? The only way to control that is to filter out less blue and green, which is usually not the correction needed.

P.s. For some reason the image quality of your report link is so bad I cannot make out the gamut chart or deltaE values. :(

[chros]

I'll make a 3D LUT file later, but first I want to calibrate the TV. (learning)
Well, you can learn if you want, but this knowlegde/pain won't be needed there (unless you want to be a "professional" calibrator :) ):
- you only have to set the white point on the TV (which is pretty easy compared to the tedious task of manual calibration of all the colors)
- the rest is controlled via software completely

P.s. For some reason the image quality of your report link is so bad I cannot make out the gamut chart or deltaE values. :(
And I can't even open the link at my workplace :D I'll take a look at it from home.

[chros]

Calibration is complete! but unfortunately there are a lot of blue and red colors.
I can see that, but the CIE chart looks fine. Are they also visible?
Take a note of your settings of the TV then try out DisplayCal with 3dlut:
- reset all your config in the TV
- and only set the white balance nothing else when DisplayCal asks for it

[Asmodian]

[B][U]https://i.imgur.com/NXSForX.jpg

ps.: I'll make a 3D LUT file later, but first I want to calibrate the TV. (learning)

I finally looked at your chart on a desktop. That red and blue error is exactly what I was talking about.

I can see that, but the CIE chart looks fine. Are they also visible?
Take a note of your settings of the TV then try out DisplayCal with 3dlut:
- reset all your config in the TV
- and only set the white balance nothing else when DisplayCal asks for it

The new version of Calman (2017) has a very simple almost automatic workflow for creating very good 3DLUTs for madVR (Color Cube). To my surprise they do seem a little better than those created by Argyllcms. It supports madTPG too, of course.

The level of integration is impressive, it even names the 3DLUTs according to the color space and configures madVR to use them. It supports creating a 3DLUT for every color space madVR does (and more).

It you have a license for Calman you should use it but DisplayCal is a very good and much cheaper option.

[Oguignant]

I finally looked at your chart on a desktop. That red and blue error is exactly what I was talking about.



The new version of Calman (2017) has a very simple almost automatic workflow for creating very good 3DLUTs for madVR (Color Cube). To my surprise they do seem a little better than those created by Argyllcms. It supports madTPG too, of course.

The level of integration is impressive, it even names the 3DLUTs according to the color space and configures madVR to use them. It supports creating a 3DLUT for every color space madVR does (and more).

It you have a license for Calman you should use it but DisplayCal is a very good and much cheaper option.

True, it's much better Calman to create the 3Dlut. (the 2016 version of Calman is exactly the same as the 2017 version for creating 3Dlut).

I found a way to create a detailed 3Dlut of 17,576 points (Madvr limits it to 10,000 max points). If anyone cares, I can explain how.

https://i.imgur.com/ur5CjXOh.png?1

[Asmodian]

Did you notice a difference between 17 thousand and 10 thousand?! 3000 is usually plenty, 6000 is more than enough. :p

True, it's much better Calman to create the 3Dlut. (the 2016 version of Calman is exactly the same as the 2017 version for creating 3Dlut).

The quality is the same but the integration is much better now. :)

[Oguignant]

Did you notice a difference between 17 thousand and 10 thousand?! 3000 is usually plenty, 6000 is more than enough. :p

it is not only the quantity, it is different the method that uses to create the 3dlut. Looks better with these options. Try it and you'll see the difference, especially in the blackcrush

Did you notice a difference between 17 thousand and 10 thousand?! 3000 is usually plenty, 6000 is more than enough. :p



The quality is the same but the integration is much better now. :)

I do not want to be annoying, but I use Calman from the 2016 version and I do not change anything, the integration is the same. Note that the latest version 2016 is from August 2017

CalMAN 2016 Rev 2
Version: 5.7.3 Build: 2359
Official Release: August 7th, 2017

[hajosattila]

That red and blue error is exactly what I was talking about.

What do you think exactly?

[Oguignant]

@Asmodian | @chros Thank you!!

Calibration is complete! but unfortunately there are a lot of blue and red colors.
I tried it several times, but I could not solve the problem.

https://i.imgur.com/NXSForX.jpg

ps.: I'll make a 3D LUT file later, but first I want to calibrate the TV. (learning)

Did you create a meter profile for your Tv?

[hajosattila]

Did you create a meter profile for your Tv?

No, I did not make it.

[Oguignant]

No, I did not make it.

in the "Correction" option that you use?

[Asmodian]

What do you think exactly?

Your red and blue primaries are off, your green primary is very accurate.

You cannot change these with a calibration, they are not bad and I would not worry about them.

[hajosattila]

Your red and blue primaries are off, your green primary is very accurate.

Asmodian, what do you mean "OFF" because minimally adjustable... Can you explain more? Thank you

You cannot change these with a calibration, they are not bad and I would not worry about them.

But I've tried everything!
Luminance/stimulus: 75%/75% - 75%/100% - 100%/75% - 100%/100% but only minimally improved the colors, and I'm unable to set the red and blue colors to a lower value...

At weekends I look at the HCFR program.

One more thing: Does it matter, from image qualtiy point of view, which setting I use out of the two option during the calibration process?

CALMAN is 16-235 at every case!
Setup 1 (limited range)
TV: 16-235 | NVIDIA CP: 16-235

Setup 2 (full range)
TV: 0-255 | NVIDIA CP: 0-255

I would like to apologize for the wrong wording if there is any, but unfortunately there is 0 information about the subject in my native language, especially on this level, so I have to ask my questions on international portals.

[Asmodian]

By off I simply mean they are not accurate. It is tricky to develop white LEDs with exactly the correct pure red, green, and/or blue for BT.709. Most displays' primary colors are not perfect and your's are actually pretty good.

Trying to fix it will probably make a lot of other aspects of your calibration, that you are not currently measuring, worse.

But I've tried everything!

What about being unable to correct them with on-device calibration do you not believe. ;)

Your red and blue primaries are slightly under-saturated, that means a calibration would need to remove more than 100% of the green and blue from the red and more than 100% of the green and red from the blue. This is not possible, you cannot increase the saturation of a primary color with a calibration. Setting your display to a wider gamut, if available, would increase saturation but it would be MUCH higher, giving much higher dE values.

In fact it usually messes up a lot of other aspects of a calibration to even attempt to correct the primary colors. Even correcting the secondary colors usually goes bad, you can get 100% magenta looking correct but 50% magenta doesn't change so you end up with non-linear saturation ramps that are hard to deal with during a software calibration. Make sure to look at the saturation ramps before and after, don't make them look worse after calibration. Also Calman's "color checker" is very helpful when evaluating manual calibrations.

Before creating a 3DLUT I would only use the on-device calibration to correct the white point, reset color management to the defaults and then only use it to correct the white point.

One more thing: Does it matter, from image qualtiy point of view, which setting I use out of the two option during the calibration process?

CALMAN is 16-235 at every case!
Setup 1 (limited range)
TV: 16-235 | NVIDIA CP: 16-235

Setup 2 (full range)
TV: 0-255 | NVIDIA CP: 0-255

Are you using madTPG or something else? I have never tested using another pattern generator but this is dependent on that generator and your display.

madTPG will expand 16-235 to full range RGB so Setup 1 and Setup 2 give the same results (2 preferred, all else being equal). This assumes your display is set to full range in madVR.

If the pattern source does not expand the dynamic range (madVR set to limited range or another generator) it is important to use Setup 3: TV: 16-235 | NVIDIA CP: 0-255. Or switch Calman to 0-255 and use Setup 2 (Setup 1 works too), Windows is always 0-255 so when not using madTPG in Windows Calman should probably be set to 0-255.

You can use madTPG even when not creating a 3DLUT so it is strongly recommended.

Edit: I know it is hard to grasp but your Setup 1 and 2 look basically the same to calibration software. Setup 1; with the NVIDIA CP set to 16-235 the GPU compresses 0-255 into 16-235 so any test patterns are compressed, the TV then displays the software's pattern value of 0 as 0% black and what was a pattern value of 255 as 100% white. The data format is always 0-255, the GPU option 16-235 is an active range compression step while the option 0-255 does not do anything to the data. The GPU always gets full range RGB even with limited range set in Calman, all that changes is what Calman thinks is 0% IRE; binary (0000000, 0000000, 0000000) or (00010000, 00010000, 00010000).

[chros]

Edit: I know it is hard to grasp but your Setup 1 and 2 look basically the same to calibration software. Setup 1; with the NVIDIA CP set to 16-235 the GPU compresses 0-255 into 16-235 so any test patterns are compressed, the TV then displays the software's pattern value of 0 as 0% black and what was a pattern value of 255 as 100% white.
As Asmodian suggested: use setup 2. if it's possible.

[hajosattila]

Are you using madTPG or something else? I have never tested using another pattern generator but this is dependent on that generator and your display.

madTPG will expand 16-235 to full range RGB so Setup 1 and Setup 2 give the same results (2 preferred, all else being equal). This assumes your display is set to full range in madVR.

If the pattern source does not expand the dynamic range (madVR set to limited range or another generator) it is important to use Setup 3: TV: 16-235 | NVIDIA CP: 0-255. Or switch Calman to 0-255 and use Setup 2 (Setup 1 works too), Windows is always 0-255 so when not using madTPG in Windows Calman should probably be set to 0-255.

Thank you very much for the detailed answer!! :goodpost:

First step: Correct dynamic range TV: 0-255 | NVIDIA CP: 0-255 | CALMAN 16-235(?)

next step: I changed the program's internal generator. I use madtgp :)

If this is correct, then I'll start calibration.

sorry for my bad English

[Asmodian]

Yes, that is correct.

[hajosattila]

Finally, I decided to perform the measurement under HCFR, which I am completely satisfied with if the gamma did not slide in the 50-60-80 and 90 range.

How can I correct this?

https://imgur.com/a/iU3qV

[Asmodian]

You probably cannot, those errors are very minor and your display looks good overall.

Your TV would need a multi-point luminescence control to adjust that, some TVs do have luminescence controls as part of a 10 or 20 point white balance IRE adjustment but I get better results leaving that alone and letting the gamma curve be slightly imperfect. I get much better results using a software calibration to make those fine adjustments (a 3DLUT for madVR or an ICC profile for Windows).

[chros]

I think also that those results are good :) You'll never get perfect result only if you're lucky.

[chros]

How does "convert or process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT" work using an SD display? The description of those options aren't straightforward to me.

So, what should I do / which option to use if I wan to try it out using an UHD BD encode (x265 10bit HDR10) and a 3dlut calibrated FullHD display (Bt.709)?

Thanks

[huhn]

if you select on option in HDr there is an text that should make it clear what which option does.

process HDR content by using an external 3D LUt means the ct by using an 3D lut so it is still HDR.

on a not HDR display you should either select convert HDR to SDR by using pixel shader math or convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3D LUT (if you can create of have access to a HDR -> SDR 3D LUT).

[chros]

process HDR content by using an external 3D LUt means the ct by using an 3D lut so it is still HDR.
Interesting. Is this setting for "profiled" display in HDR mode?

on a not HDR display you should either select convert HDR to SDR by using pixel shader math
That's what I use now but using GPU for this puts more stress onto my underclocked :) GPU, that's why i thought that maybe using a 3dlut for this would be better for me.
But on second thought: since decoding is done by CPU (that's not powerful at all either) then meybe it would result more stress onto the CPU if I use 3dlut for this.
Is the HDR-SDR 3dlut conversion done by CPU, isn't it?

or convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3D LUT (if you can create of have access to a HDR -> SDR 3D LUT).
And which 3dlut should be created? BT.2020 or DCI-P3? Currently all the HDR contents are DCPI-3P.
Do you have a link how to create those 3dluts with DiplayCal?

Thanks for your help!

[huhn]

Interesting. Is this setting for "profiled" display in HDR mode?
it's the same as a normal 3D LUt just for the HDR mode.

That's what I use now but using GPU for this puts more stress onto my underclocked :) GPU, that's why i thought that maybe using a 3dlut for this would be better for me.
But on second thought: since decoding is done by CPU (that's not powerful at all either) then meybe it would result more stress onto the CPU if I use 3dlut for this.
Is the HDR-SDR 3dlut conversion done by CPU, isn't it?

HDR -> SDR conversation is done by the GPU.
And which 3dlut should be created? BT.2020 or DCI-P3? Currently all the HDR contents are DCPI-3P.
Do you have a link how to create those 3dluts with DiplayCal?

Thanks for your help!

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html

just use the d65 Rec. 2020 / SMPTE 2084 madVR profile

[chros]

it's the same as a normal 3D LUt just for the HDR mode.
Yep, thanks, that's what I meant.

HDR -> SDR conversation is done by the GPU.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html
just use the d65 Rec. 2020 / SMPTE 2084 madVR profile
It's good news, looks promising, I'll give it a try then when I'll have time.

[Arm3nian]

Two questions:
Does lowering RGB levels in the monitor menu reduce gamut?

Which would give more accurate color:
1) no correction
2) spectral correction LCD White LED IPS (generic one in dispcal)
3) matrix correction for the same model colorimeter and display that I have but created and uploaded by someone else, so "different" hardware.

All three give different results, so how do I know which is the most accurate without a reference or more tools like a spectrometer of my own.

[huhn]

Two questions:
Does lowering RGB levels in the monitor menu reduce gamut?
there is no general answer to this. maybe.
Which would give more accurate color:
1) no correction
2) spectral correction LCD White LED IPS (generic one in dispcal)
3) matrix correction for the same model colorimeter and display that I have but created and uploaded by someone else, so "different" hardware.
3.
All three give different results, so how do I know which is the most accurate without a reference or more tools like a spectrometer of my own.
you don't.

[chros]

Which would give more accurate color:
1) no correction
2) spectral correction LCD White LED IPS (generic one in dispcal)
3) matrix correction for the same model colorimeter and display that I have but created and uploaded by someone else, so "different" hardware.

3.
I've been also thinking about the diff between 2) and 3): e.g. if you have a old spoctrophotometer that age (like my i1Pro) then who knows: maybe 2) would give better results :)

[e-t172]

Does lowering RGB levels in the monitor menu reduce gamut?

From the rest of your post it looks like you have measurement hardware on hand, so why don't you try it and see for yourself? That's the best way to be sure. (Using ColorHCFR for example, which will show you the gamut graphically.)

Every monitor is different in terms of settings, but in general, if the RGB settings don't mention anything about hue or saturation, it usually means it's an individual channel luminance setting. That affects the white point, but not the position of the primaries (which is what most people mean by "gamut", i.e. in 2D).

[Asmodian]

I have had R, G, and B move the primaries before (on a plasma TV) but they usually do not on anything with a backlight. They do not on my OLED TV either.

[hajosattila]

I get much better results using a software calibration to make those fine adjustments (a 3DLUT for madVR).

I would like to fine tune this setting: https://imgur.com/a/iU3qV (link) Can you help me with DisplayCal's settings? https://imgur.com/a/PRxXz

In my case, is it necessary to use the Interactive Display Adjustment option? I just want to refine my CMS because I've calibrated everything with BT1886 CALMAN software

Thanks for your help and I apologize for my weak English!

[Asmodian]

What do you want to fine tune about them? Why does your CMS need refining? Your first link shows everything pretty much perfect. You are not going to get noticeably better than that.

Your red and blue primaries at 1.2 dE is not fixable (see above) and you have 0.2 dE or lower everywhere else, 0.2 dE is very very good. Even 1.2 dE is good, below 2 dE is considered a good calibration in most professional color work, but that is for all colors.

You should measure your saturation ramps and/or a color checker to better judge your current calibration.

Edit: Hmm.. I think I misunderstood you. You can create the 3DLUT for madVR with Calman so I got confused. :o

If you simply want to create a 3DLUT for madVR you definitely do not need the Interactive Display Adjustment option. :)

One change I would make is to set the Whitepoint to "as measured" or "native" too. Your white point is already very good so tweaking in software lowers contrast for no gain. Otherwise your options look good for your display.

[hajosattila]

So you suggest I should leave it as it is and there is no use for fine tuning? Actually I am quite satisfied with the results as every REMUX is awesome on it.

[Asmodian]

A 3DLUT for madVR could be beneficial but you don't want to adjust your white point. I haven't actually seen your gamma results but a 3DLUT is a great way to get a perfect gamma. Only looking at primary and secondary colors and the gray scale is not enough information.

The settings you showed for DisplayCal were good, except I would change the gamma to BT.1886 and the white point to as measured (or native if that is what DisplayCal calls it). Unless your gamma is already good.

Even with all those options set to "as measured" a 3DLUT can be helpful, it won't make a big difference in all scenes but can help a lot in some.

However, if you do a "Color Checker" scan in HFCR and everything is below 2 dE, maybe don't bother with a 3DLUT. :)

[chros]

Can you help me with DisplayCal's settings? https://imgur.com/a/PRxXz
In my case, is it necessary to use the Interactive Display Adjustment option? I just want to refine my CMS because I've calibrated everything with BT1886 CALMAN software!

So you suggest I should leave it as it is and there is no use for fine tuning? Actually I am quite satisfied with the results as every REMUX is awesome on it.

Can you also remind us which TV do you have, Attila?
Well, here's what you can do: select a different user preset on your TV and reset everything back to default under it, than you can create a proper 3dlut with DisplayCal and you can easily switch between presets on the TV to see the diff between CMS and 3dlut calibration.

... except I would change the gamma to BT.1886 ...
Well, I'd rather go for 2.4 gamma if you can select it on your TV as well :) You can take a look here (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-139.html#post40108362), why, Attila.

As far as modding the default MadVR preset in DisplayCal, you only have to change:
- the amount of patches on Profiling tab (I used to create around 4000)
- and the above mentioned gamma settings on 3dlut tab

And yes, you have to adjust the white point of your TV!

When it's finished, you have to make sure that the generated 3dlut is properly set in MadVR, then you can go to the verification tab, and set the chosen gamma there as well, and select XXXL video profile.
And you can also make a profile with HCFR as well, as Asmodian said.

... and I apologize for my weak English!
Your English is fine there's no need for apologizing for it :)

[Asmodian]

And yes, you have to adjust the white point of your TV!

Their white point is already within 0.2 dE! Why would they want to use software to mess with the white point at all? Any change done in software would reduce contrast for nothing. :mad:

Well, I'd rather go for 2.4 gamma if you can select it on your TV as well :) You can take a look here (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-139.html#post40108362), why, Attila.

for evening/night usage (with just a dim environment light on): 2.4 like gamma with slightly elevated shadows at the lower end of greyscale

Guess what BT.1886 is. :p

[hajosattila]

However, if you do a "Color Checker" scan in HFCR and everything is below 2 dE, maybe don't bother with a 3DLUT. :)

As far as I remember the avg. in Color Checker was around 0,9.Including the skin tone, blue sky etc.

Thanks guys!!

[chros]

Their white point is already within 0.2 dE! Why would they want to use software to mess with the white point at all? Any change done in software would reduce contrast for nothing. :mad:
:D Well, then he doesn't have to change it then :)

[Arm3nian]

I notice the closer I get RGB to each other the less difference I see at the end of the calibration when I click preview. Essentially just adjusting those values is what you do on a display not connected to a computer, and can use HCFR. So is there an actual reason to "calibrate" with the software and have it adjust levels if not doing pro color work? I leave the settings on "as measured" anyway.

https://i.imgur.com/gHxN8kg.png

[chros]

So is there an actual reason to "calibrate" with the software and have it adjust levels if not doing pro color work?
Do you mean 3dlut?

[Asmodian]

If your white point is already as good as your example I strongly recommend you not calibrate it in software. I also recommend you NEVER calibrate the brightness with software, for any reason. :p

A 3DLUT can still be quite helpful, and even an ICC profile if your gamma or gray scale need work, but simply set the aspects that are already good to "as measured". The less you adjust in software the better. :)

[markanini]

Is it worth creating a 3DLUT for every color space ie Rec.709, SMPTE-C, EBU/PAL?

[chros]

I don't think so. I have 2 for rec.709 (night, day), and similarly 2 for hdr->sdr conversion.

[Arm3nian]

If your white point is already as good as your example I strongly recommend you not calibrate it in software.
I use the powers of :devil: to resurrect this quote!...

What if the white point is not exact? :)

On my new laptop, you can't adjust RGB levels. The display by default is really good, 3840x2160 wide gamut IPS. The white point was off quite a bit tho, delta E of ~7. Do I leave it as measured or target 6500k? Targeting a value actually influences decisions made during calibration right?

I tried the Dell Premier Color app. It has a bunch of profiles:
https://i.imgur.com/UYVQaxY.png
https://i.imgur.com/8rA5g0S.png

It seemed to brighten things up a bit, but the actual white level didn't change much. The white point changed very little also. The app has a mini calibration tool that uses the i1 display pro to adjust the profiles based on the specific display. After doing that the delta E was ~0.6, but I'm guessing it's because it actually calibrated something. Dispcal and madTPG methods of disabling existing calibrations don't seem to have any effect on the Dell app. You can have both the Dell app and a separate calibration running at the same time. I calibrated, profiled, and then made a 3d-lut for madVR while the Dell app was on the DCI-P3 setting. The gamut coverages were really bad, and so was the overall picture. I'm not really sure how the app works but I'm probably going to uninstall it in favor of the more manual method.

For madVR calibration, dispcal targets P3 white point coordinates by default, so I'm guessing I should leave it alone. White level and gamut is set to as measured. I made the 3D-LUT using DCI-P3 as the source color space which targets a 2.6 gamma. The Dell app also targets a 2.6 gamma with that profile selected, both for obvious reasons. Maybe I should target 2.6 in the calibration when I remove the app, because the gamma will shift, probably to 2.2.

[Asmodian]

When calibrating a modern SDR computer display I would target the BT.709 gamut. It is very important to always set white level to as measured unless you are trying to perfectly match two different displays for some reason.

Calibrating the white point is more nuanced. I would target D65 (~6504K) to go with BT.709 but if your white looks white to you I suggest you not use the normal 3 hardware 1DLUTs of the video card or madVR's 3DLUT to adjust it. However, that dell app sounds like it could be a very good thing, it is likely setting up some hardware LUT in the panel itself; using this to correct the white point is similar to using RGB controls. I would put it on the BT.709 setting though, it sounds like your display has poor coverage of P3.

Then create a BT.709 3DLUT for madVR, targeting the native white point and level. Feel free to use the 3DLUT tool to also create LUTs for the rest of madVR's supported color spaces afterward but do the profiling with the understanding that your display is BT.709. Don't try to squish DCI-P3 into your display's gamut with a calibration.

[Arm3nian]

If anyone is interested, I calibrated a single RGB LED to a pretty good white Delta E :). R, G, and B separately look good, and so does white, but a combination of 2 of them looks pretty off. R and B don't look purple, etc.

Changing the voltage to one leg of the LED by 1 millivolt resulted in a ~1% change in a level in HCFR. It's impressive to me that the i1 can detect such a small change. The limiting factor, if anything, was the precision of my power supply.

https://i.imgur.com/8vSKbpxl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XIEJglUl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fXsynGQl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rbIabb5m.jpg

[Asmodian]

Haha, very nice. :)

You discovery that purple still doesn't look right demonstrates the major issue with RGB type fake color. Our hardware is now much more accurate than the differences between how we perceive mixtures of three frequencies at different intensities. Every individual will match a particular mix of a particular red, green, and/or blue primary color to a different place on the visible spectrum, and this is discounting things like color blindness.

We are currently using a "standard observer" from a 1931 study that is an average from many individuals. This study has been redone several times over the years and the results are similar, this is why you sometimes have options for other observers, but almost everything is still designed around the 1931 results. Ideally one would do this study on oneself, using the same primary colors as your display, and use the results as a "personal observer" instead of using a standard observer.

Edit:
Also, the camera generating the content has the same issue. It does not record the actual spectrum of light but only three intensities based on the response of the sensor. It is impossible to recover the real frequencies so it will never look the same as it would if you were in the room.

However, because we experiance color in such a relative and imprecise way all this is not in anyway obvious to us unless we start doing very careful comparisons.

[Arm3nian]

I had a chance to play with a new Alienware laptop, and noticed similar things on the LEDs you can control on it. All the colors look nice, but white doesn't really look white. I guess it really does depend on the hardware used. I wanted to try some higher quality LEDs to see if they perform better.

Anyway, for my XPS 9570 laptop, there is an option for "Color Accuracy" in the Intel graphics control panel that is set to on by default. I turned it off and the display's true potential was released :devil:

The colors, specifically red, which looks a bit orangish now, are really saturated, but personally I don't think they're "over-saturated", even though I guess technically they are. It looks much better than whatever gpu altering things "color accuracy" was doing.

You were correct about the Dell App potentially being a good thing. It essentially does modify hardware LUTs as no software affects it. There are many modes for it:
1) Clean install of windows (app not present anymore). Delta E of 3.2, white point around 6750-6800k. Massive color gamut.
2) App installed and reset to factory settings (gives greenish tint and delta E shoots up to ~8).
3) When preparing to calibrate with the i1 but not actually pressing the button. Can even exit the program at this point and it keeps the settings. Delta E now down to ~3.2. Now that I think of it, it's probably the same as just disabling the app all together.
4) Actually calibrating the built-in profiles with the i1. This is sometimes random I think, but generally gives excellent results. Sometimes Delta E of .8, other times .4, and if you get lucky 0.0 or 0.1. They really should increase the amount of patches it reads as what they've implemented has a lot of potential. It basically, as you mentioned, adjusts the RGB levels for you. Sometimes down to exactly 6501k and 2.20 gamma.

Right now, I am wondering which mode to use. Without the Dell app the gamut volume is crazy, and the coverage is almost 100% on both sRGB and Adobe RGB. DCI-P3 coverage stays around the same value in any of the cases. The volume changes by ~3%. The Dell App has profiles you can select but I'm fairly sure it only adjusts the gamma. It's kind of funny because the DCI-P3 profile actually shifts the picture of the CIE diagram from Adobe RGB primaries to DCI-P3, but the coverage measured with displaycal stays the same. I don't think you can change the actual primaries of your display without severely altering everything.

Most seem to recommend prioritizing white level and gamma over gamut coverage. So I guess just calibrating with the dell app and profiling with displaycal and creating 3D LUTs is the best choice. I don't think there is any need to calibrate, as everything is spot on after running the calibration in the app. I've tried it once and it made no difference to what I can see. The white level and gamma are a bit off without it, and the diagram has squiggly curves near the primaries. If using the app, it is sharp.

Is ~93% coverage enough to try and watch UHD blurays with? The display has more gamut volume than both Adobe RGB and DCI-P3 but the primaries are obviously Adobe RGB.

All the pictures are with no app installed:

Diagrams compared to display
sRGB: https://i.imgur.com/FRR63g6.png
Adobe RGB: https://i.imgur.com/D5Fse6q.png
DCI-P3: https://i.imgur.com/12oj040.png

Gamut Coverage and Volume (ran with 425 auto-optimized patches): https://i.imgur.com/QXpzFUT.jpg

White level and Gamma: https://i.imgur.com/m7vQFrM.jpg

[Asmodian]

Great to hear you got good results updating the hardware 3DLUT with the i1. :D

I don't think you can change the actual primaries of your display without severely altering everything.

It is entirely dependent on the backlight. You can only reduce saturation after the light has been created.

Most seem to recommend prioritizing white level and gamma over gamut coverage. So I guess just calibrating with the dell app and profiling with displaycal and creating 3D LUTs is the best choice.


I agree, good advice.

I don't think there is any need to calibrate, as everything is spot on after running the calibration in the app.

Yes, do not run a software calibration if you already have a hardware 3DLUT you can update. :)

Is ~93% coverage enough to try and watch UHD blurays with? The display has more gamut volume than both Adobe RGB and DCI-P3 but the primaries are obviously Adobe RGB.

Not without a 3DLUT for madVR, but it is fine if you do have a 3DLUT.

All the pictures are with no app installed:

Too bright! :p

But that is a great Adobe RGB gamut. It is too bad Adobe RGB is out of date now. It was designed for matching printers for professional publishing (CYMK). There is a use for it still but it is not a great "wide gamut" for general consumers.

[Arm3nian]

Great to hear you got good results updating the hardware 3DLUT with the i1. :D

Yes, do not run a software calibration if you already have a hardware 3DLUT you can update. :)

Well, it was working on my previous windows install, but I'm not getting good results this time. The calibration through the Dell App is essentially doing nothing now. Same measurements before and after.

The "default" state of the display isn't too off, about 2.2 dE. I'm guessing this is where a software calibration would actually help, due to the fact that it's not too off that it would destroy the color. I calibrated (high speed) to 6500k and 2.2 gamma, and the gamut coverages and volumes are the same as with the app, but the plot has the rounded edges near the primaries. Why is that?


Not without a 3DLUT for madVR, but it is fine if you do have a 3DLUT.

I created a 3D LUT from the calibration and profile with source space of DCI-P3 and the entire UHD bluray is purple :p. UHD bluray colorspace is actually BT.2020 correct? I noticed madVR converts this to DCI-P3 with the default settings as full coverage of BT.2020 is hard to come by on a consumer display. With BT.2020 as the source for the 3D LUT, the colors look good. What should the tone curve be? The calibration is done at 2.2.

With "disable calibration controls" in madVR the colors look over saturated. With "this display is calibrated to BT.2020" the colors look washed out. I am guessing this is because my display's volume is ~18% larger than DCI-P3 but smaller than BT.2020. If I set to calibrated to DCI-P3 then it looks decent. But my display coverage is 100% adobe RGB coverage not 100% DCI-P3, so it doesn't look optimal. The 3D LUT looks the best and the most accurate.


Too bright! :p

With a laptop moving from place to place, the ambient light brightness and temperature varies greatly. I guess 120 cd/m^2 would be good, but it's too dim during the day. Going for the average brightness I use can also work as the further you drift from the brightness it was calibrated at the worse it looks.


But that is a great Adobe RGB gamut. It is too bad Adobe RGB is out of date now. It was designed for matching printers for professional publishing (CYMK). There is a use for it still but it is not a great "wide gamut" for general consumers.
Adobe RGB is actually slightly bigger than DCI-P3 correct? So there's some benefit. DSLRs can output to the Adobe RGB color space as well.

[huhn]

adobe RGB is mostly using bigger green. well is was created by typo...

[Asmodian]

I calibrated (high speed) to 6500k and 2.2 gamma, and the gamut coverages and volumes are the same as with the app, but the plot has the rounded edges near the primaries. Why is that?

Probably because it is trying to adjust the color near the primaries. Gamut coverage and volume is controlled by your primaries, no GPU 1DLUT calibration is going to change it, that takes a 3DLUT.

I created a 3D LUT from the calibration and profile with source space of DCI-P3 and the entire UHD bluray is purple :p. UHD bluray colorspace is actually BT.2020 correct? I noticed madVR converts this to DCI-P3 with the default settings as full coverage of BT.2020 is hard to come by on a consumer display.

Yes, I use BT.2020 3DLUTs too, DCI-P3 LUTs don't seem to work correctly a lot of the time and UHD is stored on the disc as BT.2020.

A 3DLUT is the only option to get good color for video on your display since no consumer video is Adobe RGB and madVR doesn't have a "this display is already calibrated to Adobe RGB" option.

Adobe RGB is actually slightly bigger than DCI-P3 correct? So there's some benefit. DSLRs can output to the Adobe RGB color space as well.

No, DCI-P3 is bigger than Adobe RGB. Adobe RGB has the same blue and red as BT.709/sRGB (less saturated than DCI-P3) but a more saturated green than even DCI-P3.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/Fig02-AdobeRGBDisplayP3sRGB-300x300_zpsdvbpsnim.jpg

[Nastenka]

Hello, I had a couple questions regarding the 3DLUTs created by DisplayCal.

- According to and following the various and official tutorials on how to create a madVR 3DLUT, during the workflow to create a madVR 3DLUT near the end madTPG should pop up and carry out further measurements. However, for me the 3DLUT is created after DisplayCal is done measuring, and while madTPG is launched, nothing is shown there or measured. Is this normal?

- I have profiled and created 3DLUTs for two monitors, however, when DisplayCal saves those 3DLUTs in its default location, it's called BT.709 for every monitor. This will lead to the files overwriting each other when profiling one after the other. I've furthermore noticed that the file sizes for different monitors are exactly the same, 96 MiB. I had the same question as above, have I set something wrong in the calibration options? I meticuously followed the official tutorial.

Thanks so much.

[huhn]

- According to and following the various and official tutorials on how to create a madVR 3DLUT, during the workflow to create a madVR 3DLUT near the end madTPG should pop up and carry out further measurements. However, for me the 3DLUT is created after DisplayCal is done measuring, and while madTPG is launched, nothing is shown there or measured. Is this normal?

this can be normal. you can verify it manually.

- I have profiled and created 3DLUTs for two monitors, however, when DisplayCal saves those 3DLUTs in its default location, it's called BT.709 for every monitor. This will lead to the files overwriting each other when profiling one after the other. I've furthermore noticed that the file sizes for different monitors are exactly the same, 96 MiB. I had the same question as above, have I set something wrong in the calibration options? I meticuously followed the official tutorial.

the same file size is normal and the overwritng too is a result from making displaycal easier to use. i totally gave up on the "easy" way and do it manual now.

you can create a new 3d with a custom name and your old readings using a tool called 3dLUT maker it's part of displaycal GUI.

[Nastenka]

Thank you for your response. It looks like everything might be alright after all. I tried the 3DLUT Maker, but wasn't sure if it would do the same as unchecking "Create 3DLUT after profiling".

[huhn]

it is the same program but it let you save the 3d LUt with it own name.

if you don't have 2 different 3dLUTs than you are not fine.

[Nastenka]

I've had a look at the 3DLut Maker, but it differs from the old method I used in that I can now choose gamma for Rec.1886, the default is 2.4 with my profile loaded.
During the regular calibration process however, I originally chose a Tone curve of 2.2.
Should I adjust the Rec.1886 gamma for the 3DLUT to 2.2 accordingly or should I go with 2.4 nonetheless?

[huhn]

it doesn't matter what you choice before you are just reading your screen the 3d LUT will use a source profile like bt 709 and map that to the readings of your screen.

or in short just select the gamma you want.

[Asmodian]

Simply agreeing with huhn.

If you can change options on your screen to more closely match your desired output, before profiling, you might get slightly better results but changing settings during profiling will not make a difference.

I don't think the color patches used for profiling change at all when changing options like gamut and gamma. At least I did some testing with my TV (LG OLED C7P) and I seem to get identical results (within my measurement variability) if I select either DCI-P3 / BT.709 or 2.20 / BT.1886 when profiling using Calman 2017 (the TV was always in the same mode, P3 BT.1886) and creating a BT.709 or BT.2020 3DLUT. Profiling is simply making a map of color value sent v.s. the color displayed so it makes sense that there aren't any options that affect the results. We are mapping the pure native RGB color space of the panel.

[Nastenka]

Thanks you two for your input. Left it on 2.4.

[Arm3nian]

No, DCI-P3 is bigger than Adobe

If so, why does Displaycal report the gamut volume of DCI-P3 as larger than Adobe RGB?

[huhn]

except for the bigger or larger word both you say the same not?

[Arm3nian]

I'm trying to measure HDR peak brightness to create a 3D LUT, but need some help to load a test pattern. I use HCFR and set the reference to UHDTV DCIP3 and the gamma to 2048. I set the generator to madTPG. The problem is the white it displays isn't white, it's a dark gray?

To get my TV to switch into HDR mode I start an UHD bluray and go fullscreen. It would be nice to skip this step entirely but I don't know if that's possible without madVR.

[Asmodian]

There is a button in madTPG to enable HDR so you shouldn't need to launch a UHD video to switch to HDR. Have you used it? This was all I needed to measure my displays peak white in HDR.

[Arm3nian]

The button does not do anything, with or without a test pattern. Also, when I switch by playing a movie, and measure a white, it's just the peak brightness of a non HDR white. I feel a test pattern with HDR metadata has to be sent for it to switch, and for it to actually display using HDR.

[Asmodian]

To get HDR to trigger with the newest Nvidia drivers (417.35) I need to set madVR to use FSE and output 10 bit as well as madTPG set to full screen. When I do this the 255,255,255 pattern from HCFR is at my HDR's peak white.

[Arm3nian]

I was on the previous drivers (416) when I received my TV. Updating to 417 changed nothing for me. Both windowed and FSE still trigger 12 bit HDR output in madVR. The button did nothing on 416 or 417 however. If I switch using madVR, and then output white in HCFR with madTPG fullscreen, it does give me the peak white.

I did this the other day though using some test patterns I found on avs. The TV sustains ~1930. After setting the optimal settings and adjusting the white point it drops to 1597 sustained. So I should use this in the 3DLUT menu as target peak luminance? The madVR HDR preset doesn't calibrate the gamma, only the whitepoint. So I was thinking to skip it all together, adjust it to 6500k manually using the RGB gain sliders, and just profile. The TV has gamma settings as well, if I really wanted to I could adjust that, but it's quite a bit of work.

[Damien147]

How do you guys adjust backlight on your TV?Is there a standard in cd/m^2 or it's personal preference?

[Asmodian]

It is personal preference, and the ideal level depends on the light level in the room. I use 100 cd/m² for a dark room.

The SDR calibration guidelines suggest between 80-160 cd/m².

[Damien147]

I was with 200 cd/m² these days for night and day.I am gonna try close to 160 then.Thank you.

[chros]

I was with 200 cd/m² these days for night and day.I am gonna try close to 160 then.Thank you.
There was a THX value back in the day (105 nits, in theatres), but due to lot of complaints (too dark) they raised it to 115-120 nits. That is for night usage.
I use:
- night: ~120 nits with 2.4 gamma
- day: ~140 nits with 2.2 gamma
Hence I had to create 2 3dluts and change them (with hardlinks in a script).

But you have to be aware that when you increase the blacklight of most of the displays (that doesn't have perfect black) the black level will also be raised (that's not a good thing).

[Damien147]

edit:I am a noob and for 2 years I got used to setting the backlight full.
I am gonna try your settings but from what I can understand it needs some time to get used to it.Thank you both.

[chros]

it needs some time to get used to it.
Yes, but it will be only days :) Especially if you created a 3dlut for it/them.

[Damien147]

I don't have a calibration device to do that.
I am using another guy's TV settings that calibrated in bt.1886 and know some values in cd/m^2 for backlight.I know that each calibration is unique but these settings look better than default.
I've got a cheap 6 series Samsung with good contrast,still don't know if it's worth it giving 1/3 of its price for a colormunki display.(or it pays you back?I watch 3-5 movies during the night at winter)
Back to our subject ~120 nits to match my monitor doesn't sound bad.I tried it yesterday and I think I am gonna settle like this. :)

[huhn]

how do you even set the brightness of a device without having a measuring device.

[Damien147]

Wasn't planning 100% accuracy,just copied measurements but long story short I found a colormunki display in a more logical price and ordered it to measure things myself.:p

[chros]

Wasn't planning 100% accuracy,just copied measurements but long story short I found a colormunki display in a more logical price and ordered it to measure things myself.:p
You can buy those colormunki/id3pro devices second hand as well, it would be cheaper.

[Damien147]

I think it's hard to find something like that second hand in Greece.
225 euro(256 usd) was the first price I've seen for a colomunki display and said no.After some googling yesterday I found it at 150 euro(171 usd) and said why not(?):)
Got some reading to do now,the only thing I know is that I have to use displaycal.

[huhn]

they nearly doubled in price in the last past years.

and i'm not a huge friend of used colorimeter they drift and the i1d3 is out for a long long time now.

[Damien147]

They translate 100 euro to 100 usd usually here(...and sometimes if you are lucky enough..).:confused:

[chros]

and i'm not a huge friend of used colorimeter they drift
I don't think that a colorimeter can drift in time, a spectrophotometer can (includes some gas in it), I think we talked about this about 3 years ago :)
E.g. on UK ebay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osacat=0&_odkw=i1d3+pro+colorimeter&_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xi1+display+pro.TRS0&_nkw=i1+display+pro&_sacat=0).

[huhn]

colorimeter are known to drift.
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Website/Website%20Articles/Maintaining%20Your%20Colorimeter.pdf

the i1d3 is supposed to be far more stable than older device but it will still drift.

[chros]

colorimeter are known to drift.
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Website/Website%20Articles/Maintaining%20Your%20Colorimeter.pdf

the i1d3 is supposed to be far more stable than older device but it will still drift.

Oh, ok, so it can. i1d3 has sealed filters so it should drift less than others that don't.

[Damien147]

~30cm next and ~30cm behind the TV I have my monitor facing the same direction.Is it ok to have my monitor on and use it while calibrating the TV?

[huhn]

if your meter is directly on the screen ambient light shouldn't matter much.

[chros]

~30cm next and ~30cm behind the TV I have my monitor facing the same direction.Is it ok to have my monitor on and use it while calibrating the TV?
You can turn its brightness down to minimum if you don't want to turn it off.

[Damien147]

That makes sense,thanks guys.
Meter is gonna take some time to come because there is no availability.Till then I am trying to learn as much as I can to start straight away.

[Damien147]

When creating an HDR to SDR lut for madvr you have to put tone curve in calibration tab to gamma 2.2?

[huhn]

you select "as measured" the option under this tab are not important for the 3D LUT.

[Damien147]

I've seen gamma 2.2 being mentioned for hdr randomly and probably misunderstood it.I did it right then,just changed target peak nits.Thank you.
Did my first calibration yesterday.TV's PC mode and monitor went fine but failed at regular TV calibration for channels.Specifically with HCFR and primaries and secondaries.
I opened a 75% test pattern and tried to set R G B in HCFR to 100% but it doesn't work.Can someone correct me what to do?

[huhn]

your SDR 3D LUT "needs" to be gamma 2.2 when madVR is doing the HDR->SDR conversation but that doesn't count for a HDR->SDR 3D LUT it will take care of the gamma problem on it's own.

[Damien147]

I see,all good then.Thanks again.

[Damien147]

edit: oops,I misread your post.
I created a 3D LUT with default settings because I want bt.1886.For HDR I have to create one more SDR 3D LUT with tone curve in displaycal's 3D lut tab set to gamma 2.2.Right?
If yes then I go in madvr's calibration tab and put it in DCI-P3?

[huhn]

if you want a to use an SDR LUT for HDR you should create it with gamma 2.2.

if the source is DCI p3 then yes you put it in DCI p3.

[Damien147]

Oh,then I need Bt.2020.I am like that (https://imgur.com/a/I1Gwzpu) now with default displaycal settings and I need to add one SDR 3d lut with bt.2020,gamma 2.2 in madvr's calibration tab to conclude without changing anything else(?)

[huhn]

if you are using a HDR->SDR 3D LUT(and your screen clearly says you are) the SDR 3D LUT isn't used for HDR so you don't need a gamma 2.2 LUT and you don't "need" BT 2020 sdr 3D LUT.

[Damien147]

That's convenient.Was wondering that actually for the OSD(showing only one).Then I leave things as they are and I am ok.Thank you one more time for being helpful.

[Damien147]

Can anyone guide me how to adjust CMS using HCFR?
I mean when adjusting 2 point you put a test pattern and adjust offset,gain to match 100% rgb in HCFR.For CMS you put 75% test pattern and do what?

[Asmodian]

Be careful adjusting the display's CMS, they often do a very bad job. Make sure to run saturation sweeps of the primary and secondary colors before and after. You do not want curves in your saturation sweeps. I have never gotten good results from a display's CMS when adjusting primary or secondary colors. :(

The adjustment is similar to white point, adjust saturation, tint, and luminance to get the dE as low as possible. If you change them while watching HCFR you can see how each option moves the color.

[Damien147]

In TV's CMS I have r g b to adjust(samsung).I don't get the similar to white point.For example I've put the 75% red pattern and red is way off to reaching 100% if I remember well.
As I said in 2 point you adjust to match 100% rgb in HCFR,what do you do similarly for CMS?

[Asmodian]

Messing with the primaries is very unlikely to help anything, you can only lower the brightness or add the other colors. :(

In two point you don't adjust to 100% rgb for high and low. You adjust to 100% white and something like 30% white, don't you? If you use a 75% red pattern you need to match it to 75% red, did I misunderstood you?

[Damien147]

Messing with the primaries is very unlikely to help anything, you can only lower the brightness or add the other colors. :(
I've seen online that they adjust CMS when calibrating my TV and thought that I have to do it myself too.Do you suggest to leave it at auto?


In two point you don't adjust to 100% rgb for high and low. You adjust to 100% white and something like 30% white, don't you? If you use a 75% red pattern you need to match it to 75% red, did I misunderstood you?

Sorry,let me say it again.Yes,in 2 point you adjust to 100% white(if you have 10 point,if not 80%) and something like 30% gray.You open the 100% test pattern and adjust TV's RGB gain to match 100% of each r g b in HCFR.Then you open a 30% and do the same with offset.
To adjust primaries and secondaries I've read that you use 75% color.I open a 75% red pattern and then do what with CMS's RGB and HCFR?What am I looking for?

[Asmodian]

What options do you have when adjusting a primary color? I am not familiar with Sony's CMS and am not sure what you should do if you don't have saturation, tint, and luminance adjustments.

In HCFR you compare your 75% red to a 75% red and are looking for a low dE. Often luminance is the value that is most off. It is important to configure HCFR to use the real max brightness at 100% white as its reference when doing this.

[Damien147]

It's like this (https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/samsung/ku6300/ku6300-config-16-medium.jpg).Ok,I am looking for low dE but what do I do to achieve it?

[Asmodian]

Fiddle with R, G, and/or B. :p

Sorry but that really is it. Increasing G or B will reduce saturation and raise luminance, decreasing R will lower luminance and may or may not change other aspects. You do not have a lot of control when messing with the primaries so if you cannot get it any better after fiddling then I would conclude that it is as good as possible. I would probably leave G and B on 0 and R at 50 and use a 3DLUT to do gamut correction for madVR, unless I could get it very good and it did not mess up the saturation and grey scale sweeps. Using the TV's CMS to get the primaries or secondaries slightly more accurate often has a trade off that isn't worth it.

You will need to adjust the white point again if you do adjust the primaries.

[Damien147]

I googled and read various guides but no one explains it like grayscale for example.
What matters to me is PC mode and there everything went fine.Some options are missing but what I need is there.
About the primaries and secondaries that I asked now is for another mode that is for plain TV watching.So no 3dlut option for me.I don't truly care but why not calibrate it when you can?
I guess by your sayings it's no biggie but it would be nice if anyone knows and answers.Thanks.

[huhn]

there is no general answer to that it really depends on your device.

[Damien147]

You are right.I give up and if it happens and someone knows good.If not I am leaving it at auto and all good again,it's just for regular TV.Thanks guys.

[Siso]

Guys, can you recommend me some good software for creating 3dlut for madvr, I have error in the end of the calibration with displaycal...

[FranceBB]

Guys, can you recommend me some good software for creating 3dlut for madvr, I have error in the end of the calibration with displaycal...

I would definitely recommend LUTCalc made by Ben Turley.
You can find it here: https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html

Alternatively, if you have Davinci Resolve installed, you can use it to create new LUTs that best suit your needs.

[huhn]

did you even read his question?

@Siso
can you post the error message.
and what do you understand as the end of calibration?

what is the meter new meter may not work yet.

[Siso]

did you even read his question?

@Siso
can you post the error message.
and what do you understand as the end of calibration?

what is the meter new meter may not work yet.

I have this error rarely when I make a 3dlut for madvr. After almost 2 hrs of calibraiton with colormunki display.

WindowsError: [Error 32] The process cannot access the file because it is ?
? being used by another process
18:32:39,687 Warning - temporary file 'c:\users\****\appdata\local\temp\DisplayCAL- ?
? mfusjv\madVR 2020-01-13 16-55 S XYZLUT+MTX.ti3' could not be removed: ?
? [Windows Error 32] The process cannot access the file because it is being ?
? used by another process: c:\users****\appdata\local\temp\DisplayCAL- ?
? mfusjv\madVR 2020-01-13 16-55 S XYZLUT+MTX.ti3

[Asmodian]

I really like Calman Video Pro but it is stupidly expensive. I have not used the home versions, much more affordable and only for specific TVs but a good option if that is what you want to calibrate. Lightspace is also said to be a very good option but I haven't looked into it, also quite expensive.

DisplayCal + ArgyllCMS is what I would recommend unless you really want to start spending money. We can help debug your issues. :)

Do you have any non-ascii characters in your user name? How about something syncing those folders to the cloud?

[Siso]

I really like Calman Video Pro but it is stupidly expensive. I have not used the home versions, much more affordable and only for specific TVs but a good option if that is what you want to calibrate. Lightspace is also said to be a very good option but I haven't looked into it, also quite expensive.

DisplayCal + ArgyllCMS is what I would recommend unless you really want to start spending money. We can help debug your issues. :)

Do you have any non-ascii characters in your user name? How about something syncing those folders to the cloud?

I just put those * instead of my username.

[Asmodian]

Yeah, never mind about that question. It would fail every time if it was a character bothering it. :o

[huhn]

just do it step by step.

so don't create a 3D LUT just created readings first and then the 3D LUT and maybe it is better if you deleted the storage folder or try to save the next project in a different folder that is not a default windows folder.

there are so meany reasons for your error another instance didn't stop could even be the widows anti virus still checking this new file.

even if the error happens again the readings my exist already so you can create the 3D LUT from it.

[Siso]

just do it step by step.

so don't create a 3D LUT just created readings first and then the 3D LUT and maybe it is better if you deleted the storage folder or try to save the next project in a different folder that is not a default windows folder.

there are so meany reasons for your error another instance didn't stop could even be the widows anti virus still checking this new file.

even if the error happens again the readings my exist already so you can create the 3D LUT from it.

It says the file is in use by other process or program, I have this error very rarely. The folder with the calibration is not on the OS ssd, It may be my antivirus...nod32. I'll try to make the calibration first and unchek "create 3dlut after calibration" option. And to be sure I'll pause the protection of the antivirus.

[Siso]

Today I got the same error...

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ec/1a/LCAC9ZJK_t.png (http://imgbox.com/LCAC9ZJK)

Run displaycal as administrator, stopped the nod32 protection for 4 hours, I'm out of options...

The monitor is LG 34UC99-W

[huhn]

the problem is the temp folder not sure if this folder is changeable
but you already changed the "choose save path..."

again this error may not matter if you tell me when it happens you can just do the next step.

what so ever something is touching these files.

[Siso]

I got it fixed, it seems that one system process was locking the displaycal temp folder - the process werfault.exe, by using unlock software, I managed to get the calibration right this time. Thank you for the help guys.

[Siso]

In order to prevent black crush for windows calibration and madvr 3dlut (2.2 gamma for windows and 2.4 gamma for 3dlut with 100% black output offset gives me black clipping and crush), is it a good choice to enable black point compensation? This is for XYZ LUT+matrix the default profile in displaycal.

[huhn]

could be an issue with relative/absolute render intent and or gamma.

what do you understand as black crush?

[Siso]

could be an issue with relative/absolute render intent and or gamma.

what do you understand as black crush?

Being unable to see 17-18 in Black Clipping.mp4 test.

[huhn]

well that'S as straight forward as it get's shouldn't happen in general.

did you try measuring these patches?

[Siso]

well that'S as straight forward as it get's shouldn't happen in general.

did you try measuring these patches?

With relative gamma 2.4 and 40% black output offset I can see bar 17 barely flashing and 18 is visible. With 100% black output offset I can't see them at all.

[huhn]

what about absolute.

do you have black clipping without the 3d lut?

[Siso]

what about absolute.

do you have black clipping without the 3d lut?

Same thing with absolute, with absolute I can set 50% black output offset, anything above that is clipping the blacks. Same situation without the 3dlut.

[huhn]

try to fix the black clipping before you create 3d lut by using custom levels in madVR use a meter to verify.

i do this using a pure black png loaded in madVR but i haven't needed it in years.

and there was something related to gamma settings but i simply can't remember my current TV is perfect in this task.

[Siso]

try to fix the black clipping before you create 3d lut by using custom levels in madVR use a meter to verify.

i do this using a pure black png loaded in madVR but i haven't needed it in years.

and there was something related to gamma settings but i simply can't remember my current TV is perfect in this task.

Can I enable in the profile settings - enable black point compensation? Would that fix the black clipping?

[chros]

What TV is that?

[Siso]

What TV is that?

Monitor Dell AW3420DW.

[huhn]

Can I enable in the profile settings - enable black point compensation? Would that fix the black clipping?

i don't think so.
wive the custom levels a try.

[Siso]

i don't think so.
wive the custom levels a try.

Can you give me some examples?

[huhn]

https://abload.de/img/customlevel7ykmy.png

you load a black image and check the values with the interactive display adjustment in DisplayCAL.
you set the black level as high as possible before the displaycal or your eye notice a difference.
after that check it again with a black level test:
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
again loaded in madVR.
i don't use that flicker test anymore.

[Siso]

I'll try with the custom levels, also is using windowed overlay got something to do with the black clipping? Without the 3dlut I don't have the black clipping.

[huhn]

Same thing with absolute, with absolute I can set 50% black output offset, anything above that is clipping the blacks. Same situation without the 3dlut.

well you said that it is the same without a 3d LUT.

if it is not happening without a 3D LUT you are currently wasting your time. my instruction are only useful if it happens without 3D LUTs.

overlay is really a bit different WTW and BTB will not survive (i haven't check this in a long time)and it load windows calibration differently but you should use disable GPU ramp anyway if you are using windows wide calibration.

[Siso]

well you said that it is the same without a 3d LUT.

if it is not happening without a 3D LUT you are currently wasting your time. my instruction are only useful if it happens without 3D LUTs.

overlay is really a bit different WTW and BTB will not survive (i haven't check this in a long time)and it load windows calibration differently but you should use disable GPU ramp anyway if you are using windows wide calibration.

I'm sorry about the misinformation, huhn. I checked during daytime and it had light in my room, so I couldn't see properly without the 3dlut. I tested in a semi dark room, and the clipping is coming from the 3dlut with black output offset anything above 40-50%.

[huhn]

well i was more worried you will now waste your time with custom levels.

you may have to ask fhoech i'm not advanced enough in this part of calibration.

[Siso]

well i was more worried you will now waste your time with custom levels.

you may have to ask fhoech i'm not advanced enough in this part of calibration.

It's ok, I'll ask him. At least I know that the issue happens with the 3dlut.

[tp4tissue]

Monitor Dell AW3420DW.

This is an IPS, it's going to clip black dark detail, because the black level is too high.

So with IPS, you probably don't want to go above 60-80nits.

Because at ~1000:1 contrast, 60/1000 = 0.05nits. You push that too much higher, on bt1886 it'll look very grey and floaty, on gamma 2.4 pure power, it'll look more contrasty, but eat into the shadow detail because the base black is too bright @ 0.05+

IPS are not good monitors for movies. VA or Oled at the moment is significantly better.

You don't need to worry about black clipping on IPS, if you try to fix it it'll just look worse because you'd be pushing like bt1886

[tp4tissue]

To calibrate that monitor, FIRST, just do test measurements of the few modes it has.

Select default gamma 2.2 from the top drop box, go to verification, check simulation profile, check untouched, check bt709, check use simulation profile as monitor profile use the 51 patch checker.

Now run that, what you're looking for between these modes is a relatively flat 2.2gamma, and flat 6500k. if they're all really off, try some of the options in custom. This is for the grey balance section. Don't worry about the Delta E, this doesn't matter right now.

For Color, Look for a mode that's using its native gamut, so the color dots from the 51 patch should fill out much wider than the bt709 targets, the color overlap the blank circles by a wide margin.

Once you figure out which mode you can use, THEN under calibration select 6504k white point, leave tone curve to the 2.2g default, don't touch black point correction or black output offset. leave default. Set calibration speed to medium.

You can also post the different simulation reports you get, And we can tell you which mode to calibrate.

AFTER you finish the default 2.2 gamma calibration, install that profile to the monitor and from here on let the dispcal autoloader run, this works way better than all other loaders.

This will be your desktop profile.

Next select Madvr 709, you stay in the same monitor mode.

Under calibration, you now select white point 6504 as before, but under tone curve, select default gamma 2.2, then change that to 2.4, This will carve out a 2.4 curve, then use that curve to drive the madvr lut creation. This won't affect your monitor's profile, this part is only the creation process for 3dlut madvr.

Under 3D lut, leave everything default, EXCEPT, tone curve, select 2.2 relative, then change to 2.4 relative. leave other settings default.

Under render intent, you'll want to create 2 different 3dluts, 1 will be the absolute colorimetric w/ whit point scaling, this will bec reated by default,

After this process finishes, you'll uncheck "create 3dlut after profiling, then under rendering intent, switch it to preserve Saturation, this will be the second profile you create, you can create it without redoing the whole calibration, it will just use the measurement data from before.

For anime and movies that lack color, you can switch to the preserve saturation profile, because your monitor is default p3 gamut, and it will look more colorful.

For slice of life movies, switch to the absolute colori wwps,

Don't use the install option for the 3dlut, just go into madvr and do that manually.

[tp4tissue]

do not use custom levels, do not use black clipping tests. you don't need them. displaycal takes care of all of that during the calibration phase, then it enters profile phase.

[Siso]

Next select Madvr 709, you stay in the same monitor mode.

Under calibration, you now select white point 6504 as before, but under tone curve, select default gamma 2.2, then change that to 2.4, This will carve out a 2.4 curve, then use that curve to drive the madvr lut creation. This won't affect your monitor's profile, this part is only the creation process for 3dlut madvr.

Under 3D lut, leave everything default, EXCEPT, tone curve, select 2.2 relative, then change to 2.4 relative. leave other settings default.

When I calibrate for madvr 3dlut, I set these settings - http://imgbox.com/0kFJzViu What about black output offset?

[tp4tissue]

When I calibrate for madvr 3dlut, I set these settings - http://imgbox.com/0kFJzViu What about black output offset?


You can't use the setting above, unless the default behavior of the monitor is nearly perfect. Which it almost certainly is not.

BUT, only after you've scanned through the hardware settings on your monitor to find the best mode for calibration. Otherwise, you won't have the optimal setting. Contrast ratio optimization is very important for IPS, because it has so little of it to begin with.


Use these settings when doing madvr. (not before looking through the modes for the best behaved one)
https://imgur.com/a/LRpNxb1
https://imgur.com/rC2jntH

[Siso]

You can't use the setting above, unless the default behavior of the monitor is nearly perfect. Which it almost certainly is not.

BUT, only after you've scanned through the hardware settings on your monitor to find the best mode for calibration. Otherwise, you won't have the optimal setting. Contrast ratio optimization is very important for IPS, because it has so little of it to begin with.


Use these settings when doing madvr. (not before looking through the modes for the best behaved one)
https://imgur.com/a/LRpNxb1
https://imgur.com/rC2jntH

Everywhere people say that in Custom mode of the monitor you can reach the rgb channels to manually set them to match the white point. I always use Custom mode.

[tp4tissue]

Everywhere people say that in Custom mode of the monitor you can reach the rgb channels to manually set them to match the white point. I always use Custom mode.

The custom mode MAY be good, you don't know that for sure, unless you check the other modes as well.

Again, don't go by what people say online <except Tp4issue>, they either don't have a colorimeter and generally don't understand their device/measurements.

Load up default 2.2 setting from the top menu, go to verification. Then run the simulation profile testing as below

In Most cases, to maximize the contrast ratio, you'll prolly need to go into the dell hidden menu and tug on the rgb gain settings. UNLESS those settings work out in the custom mode, or possibly standard mode is already peak.

Test the modes first: vv

https://imgur.com/a/hj5jHvS


These things come out very different from the factory, one mode might do something for someone else, but NOT YOU, because the gains are set wrong at the factory.

Just looked at the manual for ur monitor, u can tell this is not targeted @ videophiles, it spends most of the pages telling you how to use the backlit leds hahahaha.

OK, test the following modes, under standard, test Warm, Cool, and Custom(set to 6504k via displaycal's interactive whitepoint). Test the custom mode a second time, with all the rgb values pushed to the highest. it'll look wrong, but you're just trying to figure out which gain is the weakest, and you'll try to target that channel's peak brightness with the other channels so that you get peak contrast.

Make sure the dynamic contrast is disabled, and all other settings that affect contrast. such as that black stabilizer.

Then go into the factory hidden menu, and check what goodies are available in there.

[Siso]

In the other modes I won't be able to set the rgb channels.

[tp4tissue]

In the other modes I won't be able to set the rgb channels.

Right , you can't set it in the main menu, but you want to test them anyway, in case you get higher contrast out of it, or a better tone response, or something else.

Don't worry about the RGB

With dell monitors, the factory gain is always available in the hidden menu. So if it turns out the other modes are better, you can adjust those gains in the hidden menu.

But you should test all of them to figure out the best behavior conditions.

[Siso]

Right , you can't set it in the main menu, but you want to test them anyway, in case you get higher contrast out of it, or a better tone response, or something else.

Don't worry about the RGB

With dell monitors, the factory gain is always available in the hidden menu. So if it turns out the other modes are better, you can adjust those gains in the hidden menu.

But you should test all of them to figure out the best behavior conditions.

Will test them, the next time I'll start the calibrations. BTW what to do if this comes up when calibrating for madvr - http://imgbox.com/00pf6MEE I wonder if this will pop up with your settings, with mine it always pop up to ask me.

[tp4tissue]

Will test them, the next time I'll start the calibrations. BTW what to do if this comes up when calibrating for madvr - http://imgbox.com/00pf6MEE I wonder if this will pop up with your settings, with mine it always pop up to ask me.

mine doesn't ask me that, I'm assuming it's because i'm setting the tone curve in the setting for the calibration.

don't start the calibration, before you run the test, you don't need a calibration to test the behaviors of the modes.

[Siso]

mine doesn't ask me that, I'm assuming it's because i'm setting the tone curve in the setting for the calibration.

don't start the calibration, before you run the test, you don't need a calibration to test the behaviors of the modes.

Understood. :thanks:

[Siso]

OK what about correction? Should I use "Spectral: LCD White LED family (AC,LG Samsung)"? Or choose one from the online database for example this one - i1 DisplayPro, ColorMunki Display & Dell, Dell AW3420DW by 4KM (i1 Pro).ccmx http://imgbox.com/E3r2SatS Here it says W-Led https://www.displaydb.com/compare/dell-alienware-aw3420dw/

[huhn]

if you find a correction for the same screen, similar display or with the same panel use that else the w rgb is most likely the closest.

[Siso]

if you find a correction for the same screen, similar display or with the same panel use that else the w rgb is most likely the closest.

You mean - i1 DisplayPro, ColorMunki Display & Dell, Dell AW3420DW by 4KM (i1 Pro).ccmx?

[huhn]

i guess so.

[Siso]

i guess so.

I usually use Spectral: LCD White LED family (AC,LG Samsung), but I will try the one from the database.

Thanks, huhn.

[tp4tissue]

It's not white led. well it is white led, but it's got nano-ips, which means quantum dot coating, you need to use one of the quantum dot corrections.

[Siso]

It's not white led. well it is white led, but it's got nano-ips, which means quantum dot coating, you need to use one of the quantum dot corrections.

There is only one - Spectral: LCD Quantum dot LED (Samsung QLED Q9).

[tp4tissue]

There is only one - Spectral: LCD Quantum dot LED (Samsung QLED Q9).

yea i'm pretty sure that one will work, cuz the q9 has ~98% p3 like the quote on yoru monitor.

they all buy quantum dot from the same place. produced by genetically engineered bacteria.

[Siso]

yea i'm pretty sure that one will work, cuz the q9 has ~98% p3 like the quote on yoru monitor.

they all buy quantum dot from the same place. produced by genetically engineered bacteria.

These are the available corrections from the online database http://imgbox.com/Ddloufch perhaps one of them will work? I imported them in displaycal, when I choose "auto" it selects one of the spectral corrections.

[tp4tissue]

These are the available corrections from the online database http://imgbox.com/Ddloufch perhaps one of them will work? I imported them in displaycal, when I choose "auto" it selects one of the spectral corrections.

I'm pretty sure the q9 one is lab grade, I mean, it won't make a huge difference visually.

I would use the q9, if you want to use some dude's spectro, it's probably fine.


Did some googling, turns out, yea, you should use those corrections instead of the q9, apparently nanocell is not quantum. it's something else.

[Siso]

I'm pretty sure the q9 one is lab grade, I mean, it won't make a huge difference visually.

I would use the q9, if you want to use some dude's spectro, it's probably fine.


Did some googling, turns out, yea, you should use those corrections instead of the q9, apparently nanocell is not quantum. it's something else.

I see, on Auto it selects this spectral correction - http://imgbox.com/wlFXMtdZ it is one of the four available for my monitor in the database (2 matrix and 2 spectral corrections).

[tp4tissue]

I see, on Auto it selects this spectral correction - http://imgbox.com/wlFXMtdZ it is one of the four available for my monitor in the database (2 matrix and 2 spectral corrections).

I'm not sure if the i1pro is better than the colormunki. double check.

[Siso]

I'm not sure if the i1pro is better than the colormunki. double check.

This is the other spectral correction - http://imgbox.com/EWS3Rtle

The other 2 are matrix corrections. http://imgbox.com/tm162g4c
http://imgbox.com/Xh4USxfy

[tp4tissue]

This is the other spectral correction - http://imgbox.com/EWS3Rtle

The other 2 are matrix corrections. http://imgbox.com/tm162g4c
http://imgbox.com/Xh4USxfy

run the simulation test on all of them if you want to, but I don't think there's gonna be a huge difference.

Just look out for if any of them have the primaries in a very different location, if they're all in similar agreement, you should be fine with any of them.

[Siso]

run the simulation test on all of them if you want to, but I don't think there's gonna be a huge difference.

Just look out for if any of them have the primaries in a very different location, if they're all in similar agreement, you should be fine with any of them.

:thanks:

[Siso]

These are the primaries of the two spectral corrections http://imgbox.com/t9BJcM5f
http://imgbox.com/RbsMzEW5

[tp4tissue]

These are the primaries of the two spectral corrections http://imgbox.com/t9BJcM5f
http://imgbox.com/RbsMzEW5


They're reasonably close. the white point looks like it's moved a bit, but that shouldn't be a problem. After calibration, if the visual white looks really off, try the other one. I doubt this would happen though.

[Siso]

They're reasonably close. the white point looks like it's moved a bit, but that shouldn't be a problem. After calibration, if the visual white looks really off, try the other one. I doubt this would happen though.

Will test both of them, but this one http://imgbox.com/t9BJcM5f seems better than the second, right?

[tp4tissue]

Will test both of them, but this one http://imgbox.com/t9BJcM5f seems better than the second, right?

We can't know which one is better, unless you also buy a spectro. just because it's closer to some value right now, doesn't mean one is better, there's no point of reference.

Every measurement can also have some level of drift. If you checked it again today, it's not gonna be the same coordinate, because the temperature changed.

Prior to measurements, warm up the device running an rgb pixel fixer video for ~ 1.5 hours. The LED takes approximately 40 minutes to stabilize, some takes a little more than an hour. You want to exercise the LCD pixels as well as the LED backlight using the video, because you get more contrast out of it post exercise. If you leave a monitor in a box for a long time, the pixel gets lazy , and won't flip on all the way, exercise and warmth brings them back. Take care not to let the video get paused by youtube, or the computer/monitor going to sleep.

Leave the meter plugged in during this phase, but do not put it on the monitor.

The only thing you can go by is if there are visual anamalies. such as color casts. Then you know something may be up.

[Damien147]

For digital displays it is a good idea to re-calibrate your TV once a year. (https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1340/84/how-often-should-i-calibrate-my-tv)
....but here I've read some people mentioning calibration every 300 hours:confused:
Is it truly beneficial to the eye or we are talking about numbers only?I mean for movies.
Once a year sounds good because I am lazy but am I missing something?:D

[huhn]

just verify it every 3 month.

[foxyshadis]

For digital displays it is a good idea to re-calibrate your TV once a year. (https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1340/84/how-often-should-i-calibrate-my-tv)
....but here I've read some people mentioning calibration every 300 hours:confused:
Is it truly beneficial to the eye or we are talking about numbers only?I mean for movies.
Once a year sounds good because I am lazy but am I missing something?:D

If you only ever calibrate once and never again, your TV will still be better-calibrated forever than 90% of everyone's. It's like when to wash your car; some people are obsessive about weekly washes, some people never bother. Aside from an initial burn-in period and the end-of-life rapid failure, the color won't change much if at all through the lifespan, but if it is new, it's worth calibrating every few weeks until you get roughly the same results twice in a row. If it's on the way out, of course, you can't calibrate your way out of that for long.

[Damien147]

Your first sentence sounds good to me.:)
I calibrated first time a year ago and I don't see anything wrong but you can't measure with eyes.The verification(never done it) that huhn mentioned before calibrating now can show how off are things and start from there I guess.
I have in mind to calibrate every October for example and I am not a perfectionist but I also don't want my calibration to become pointless now that I have a meter,something like that.
DeltaE >3 will be perceptible to the viewer I've read.I'll keep this as an indication I guess.
I have to move my TV first to calibrate every time and I don't see how others in same occasion have the appetite to do it every 300 hours:scared:
They have better TV I guess.I don't think it's worth it for the cheap 50 inch samsung I have.
Thanks guys.:)

[huhn]

it depends on the screen not every screen drifts a lot some drift like they have nothing better to do.

PJ are known to drift more in the first 100-1000 H there are always exception and so on.

[Damien147]

I meant regular movie watching on a TV.As you say results vary and it makes it hard to answer.
I'll try the less than DeltaE >3 thing when it's time to see how it goes.Thanks again.

[RXP]

Hey guys, hoping someone can help here. I've searched everywhere for an answer but can't find my exact use case.

When you create a 3D LUT for MadVR using Display CAL you target a certain gamma. In MadVR's Gamma Processing tab could you then use that to change the Gamma of your LUT? e.g. say if I had a Gamma 2.4 LUT created, tracks perfectly 2.4 from verification. I now want a daytime viewing Gamma - could I just select 2.2 in Gamma processing? Will MadVR understand that the LUT is at Gamma 2.4? Or is it expecting a specific default Gamma for the LUT if you want to use Gamma Processing?

[huhn]

madVR doesn't know the gamma of the 3D LUT. just create a new one takes like a minute.

if you create a 2.2 3D LUT it may work.

[RXP]

Hoping to get confirmation on that - because in that case the best thing to do with DisplayCAL is just to create a Gamma 2.2 LUT and let MadVR do any changes you need.

The reason I was asking was for 3D movies on my JVC x9000. Calibrating after the glasses is a bit of a faf compared to a regular flat panel. Some movies benefit from a lower Gamma due to a peak white of only 15 nits after the glasses. Doing it that way would save me time - but I guess I'll bust out the meter again or rely on JVC's own Gamma adjustments.

[RXP]

For digital displays it is a good idea to re-calibrate your TV once a year. (https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1340/84/how-often-should-i-calibrate-my-tv)
....but here I've read some people mentioning calibration every 300 hours:confused:
Is it truly beneficial to the eye or we are talking about numbers only?I mean for movies.
Once a year sounds good because I am lazy but am I missing something?:D

If you're using a TV it's really not necessarily IMO.

Disclaimer: I use calibration to fix issues I can see. Otherwise it's a numbers obsession IMHO.

- My C6 had terrible low IRE greyscale that looked purple/blue and high gamma at low IRE which exacerbated compression noise. A MadVR 3D LUT took that out like magic. I'm not really interested in objective colour accuracy - it's a nice side benefit but if that drifts I'm fine with it.

- My JVC x9000 that I bought used had a calibration applied to it. I could visibly see the green looked luminous on Cover Art in Kodi/Plex. I used JVC'a Autocal and it corrected it nicely. With a PJ I do it after 800 hours or so. They dirft way more and historically have had Gamma droop issues.

- My C9 - ran a 3D LUT with MadVR and could see no visible difference between factory and the LUT after a minor whitepoint adjustment. In fact factory Gamma hid the compression noise way better, so I'm never calibrating that.

[huhn]

if you have proper measurements and you are using a 3d LUT already why would you need the meter to change the gamma?

[RXP]

I went ahead and created a 2.6 and 2.4 Gamma 3D LUT for my C6 OLED. Very happy with the results. I like to target higher gamma on the C6 to reduce compression noise, while having no shadow crush. After realising you don't need to measure Gamma on the calibration tab it's massively reduced the time it takes to run a 3D LUT so I don't mind doing it again.

[huhn]

you just need to create a new 3dLUT with a different target the source which is the time consuming part doesn't change.

[Siso]

How often is good to calibrate a monitor for madvr 3dlut? I'm making a 3dlut every 3-4 months, I'm asking cause it takes around an hour and a half for the 3dlut...1553 patches -_-

[VBB]

The usual recommendation is to re-calibrate about once a year, depending on your display type. Projectors tend to drift more than monitors/TVs. Every 3-4 months for a monitor is overkill, but then again why not, if you have your own equipment :)

[Asmodian]

I agree with once a year as good practice.

I might calibrate a new OLED or projector after the first 4-6 months of use and then once a year. At most every six months, every three months is way too often.

[Siso]

Thanks for the replies guys, I'm kinda fed up with calibrating every 4 months, I have I1 display pro, and even it is faster than the colormunki, it takes too much time for the 3dlut :(

[VBB]

I mean, a 3D LUT is not all that involved compared to a manual calibration. It all comes down to OCD. When I first got my meter, I would bust it out almost every night, and this was before I ever messed with DisplayCAL, back in 2013. Then in 2015, when I got my fist 4K LED display, I started doing auto-cals using madTPG. Once I got the hang of it, I left everything alone until my next TV purchase. That was my current C7 OLED, and I don't recall exactly how many 3D LUTs I created, but I do know that the last one I made was in January of 2018. It still looks great, and I haven't noticed anything different. In fact, the TV has seemingly gotten better over the years, as can be the case with OLED. These days I'm simply too lazy to calibrate. My next TV will be ordered pre-calibrated from VE (by jrref, for those who know him). Calibration can be an awesome hobby, but the cost of keeping up with equipment and software can be very high, if you're intent on doing it right.

[Damien147]

When you re-calibrate you calibrate on top of previous settings and fine-tune or you reset picture settings?Does it matter?

[Asmodian]

I reset. Most professional workflows I have seen reset but I am not sure what actually goes bad if you don't reset.

[Damien147]

Ok,I will have it in mind next time.Thank you.

[Damien147]

Hello!

Beyond calibrating my SDR TV I have created an HDR to SDR lut with displaycal's video 3DLut for Madvr HDR using default settings and in Madvr I've set 100 peak nits like my SDR calibration.Have I done things right?

[Damien147]

Hello!

Beyond calibrating my SDR TV I have created an HDR to SDR lut with displaycal's video 3DLut for Madvr HDR using default settings and in Madvr I've set 100 peak nits like my SDR calibration.Have I done things right?





Madvr peak nits on hdr 3dlut tab doesn't seem to work.Picture looks dim and long story short in displaycal's target peak luminance I had to put 100 nits,right?

[Asmodian]

Right, the 3DLUT does all the work when you use it.

[Damien147]

I did it and picture looks fine now,thank you.

[Damien147]

When you calibrate grayscale for TV levels(16-235) you set gpu 16-235 Madvr 0-255 and TV at 16-235?

[huhn]

if you want to use the device in that mode yes.

if the software you use to calibrate can output 16-235 you could use full range onm the GPU too.

[Damien147]

I tried with everything on 16-235 but my meter couldn't read 10 point and suspected it was that because I've read it in the past but wasn't sure.It's just for normal channel watching,thank you.

[Damien147]

2 point went fine it seems but 10 point calibration failed.It's like TV's sliders not working.

Trying to calibrate for TV levels.
TV set to 16-235,madvr set to 0-255,gpu set to 16-235(YCbCr 4:2:0)
Hcfr and colorHCFR windows 10% patterns.
After calibrating 2 point with 30% and 100% patterns I went to 10 point starting from 100%.
From 100% to 10% HCFR RGB levels stay the same like my TV's sliders aren't working.I don't see a difference also by eye when I adjust.
I did something wrong or my TV has some kind of a bug with 10 point?

[huhn]

I did something wrong or my TV has some kind of a bug with 10 point?

both are possibile. i'm in the blind here ahcfr user should do a far better job at helping you then me.
i use paint to do a grey scale don't think about it.

It's just for normal channel watching,thank you.
than you should use madVR full range and GPU limited or just YCBCR output.

[Damien147]

PC mode(0-255) calibration went just fine and that's what matters to me.Calibrating for TV levels comes second but why not now that I have a meter.

[aufkrawall]

Anybody got an idea why I have to set black output offset to 100% in DisplayCal's 3D LUT generator in order to prevent washed out results?
Calibration was done with default gamma 2.2 profile, but with gamma changed to 2.4 relative and 6500k white point (well calibrated whitepoint via monitor OSD).
From what I can tell, both 1D LUT and 3D LUT (applying calibration via 1D LUT) look fine that way, but I'd like to find out why I need to deviate from the default setting for this result.

[huhn]

if you use 0 % black offset it will use bt1886 which changes the gamma depending on your black level depending on how high that is the resulting gamma can be sky high making the image look washed out.

[aufkrawall]

Thanks. I wonder if this also is the case why forced correction in Firefox for all elements increases gamma absurdly (unlike in Chrome).
What would happen with 99% black output offset in calibration? I suppose this might already be noticeably brighter than 100% (only got slow Spyder 4, so would take me relatively long to find out)? Seems kind of unsatisfactory.

Also got a weird issue my with current display, where applications on Windows (e.g. Edge) can't make use of the installed ICM profile. It worked with older displays (same DisplayCal profile format), but it also works on Linux Xorg. Color management is such a PITA, I wished there was a way to inject ReShade into DWM...

[huhn]

readings have nothing todo with this you can sue the same reading for as many different 3D LUT as you please...

calibration for general use of windows i just say give it up and calibrate the device directly.
for professional work you are just fine with ICM.

[aufkrawall]

Tested the ICM profile on a different Windows system: There applications can use it correctly. So something's apparently off with linking the profile to that specific monitor on Windows. What a stupid mess, unbelievable. That's why I like self generated 3D LUTs, just full control and zero shenanigans...

Most wide gamut monitors don't have an sRGB clamp (or a sh*tty one), so you're dependent on a proper ICM profile. Too bad Firefox doesn't treat gamma the way Chrome does...

[kolak]

Yep and this is why new Macs are step forward.
Screen is decent, you have choice of different refresh rates and predefined modes for video, still etc. work which do clamp gamut and lock brightness. You can also measure screen, add correction and screen will get even closer to desired values. It's not a proper calibration, but nice touch. Those screens are quite accurate out of the box.

Some measurements here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-explains-how-to-custom-calibrate-the-new-macbook-pro-displays.2320218/post-30551191

[huhn]

a step forward is the use of proprietary software wow.

[aufkrawall]

Well, also on Android you can just enforce sRGB gamut mapping globally for it seems every UI element without exception(?). Windows (but also Linux Xorg) is just excessively stupid in that regard. Hope it gets better with Wayland on Linux, the corresponding protocol has been in the making for ages...

[kolak]

a step forward is the use of proprietary software wow.

What software?
You don't have to use anything special at all- just a probe which understands new screens. Test patterns app is just "another"/easier(?) way.
Quoted post just shows that those screens are quite good and there is some "working" color management on OSX. At least your video/photo (once it's tagged properly) is converted to screen color profile on Mac and it actually works. If your screen is decent (+profiled) you get some meaningful preview, not a wild crap which happens on about any PC screen.

Those new features on latest MacBooks are move into very good direction.

How is eg. Netflix preview translated on PCs? If I have SDR screen with 50% Rec.709 gamut, or I have about P3 capable HDR screen? What do I see on PC laptop with Netflix?

On Mac it works very well. Once HDR screen is detected you get Dolby Vision and it's mapped to screen capabilities. If you force SDR profile for screen then you get only standard Rec.709 video. In case you have HDR source and play it in QTX when SDR mode is forced you get proper (toned mapped) SDR preview. It all sounds so simple but somehow it's far from been 'home standard'. Instead you get inn most cases totally wrong/unmanaged preview, which has not much to do with they way how it meant to look.

[aufkrawall]

How is eg. Netflix preview translated on PCs? If I have SDR screen with 50% Rec.709 gamut, or I have about P3 capable HDR screen? What do I see on PC laptop with Netflix?

I think you can't on Windows, afaik neither the Netflix/Disney+ etc. store apps make use of the installed ICC profile, or any browser when it comes to video or even Widevine decoding. So such content on a wide gamut display will have goofy LSD-like colors, at least with Rec709 content. The TV would have to do the color conversion, but then you probably can just use the integrated apps of a SmartTV instead of a HTPC anyway. Well, and with a regular monitor, you're screwed. It's really pathetic. :o
Though I gotta say I really also dislike brightness locks or other artificial limitations.

[huhn]

What software?
You don't have to use anything special at all- just a probe which understands new screens. Test patterns app is just "another"/easier(?) way.
Quoted post just shows that those screens are quite good and there is some "working" color management on OSX. At least your video/photo (once it's tagged properly) is converted to screen color profile on Mac and it actually works. If your screen is decent (+profiled) you get some meaningful preview, not a wild crap which happens on about any PC screen.

Those new features on latest MacBooks are move into very good direction.

How is eg. Netflix preview translated on PCs? If I have SDR screen with 50% Rec.709 gamut, or I have about P3 capable HDR screen? What do I see on PC laptop with Netflix?

On Mac it works very well. Once HDR screen is detected you get Dolby Vision and it's mapped to screen capabilities. If you force SDR profile for screen then you get only standard Rec.709 video. In case you have HDR source and play it in QTX when SDR mode is forced you get proper (toned mapped) SDR preview. It all sounds so simple but somehow it's far from been 'home standard'. Instead you get inn most cases totally wrong/unmanaged preview, which has not much to do with they way how it meant to look.

these new screens are controlled by the OSX and if the OS isn't mac os you have no access to it.

other open and official ways are present. monitors are usually simply doing it wrong out of the box or in general. TVs support control over HDMI signals for example which AMD and nvidia can send to change the screen behaviour software has to indicated that and win 11 terrible HDR features also takes "care" of this. loading profiles correctly on mac os for pretty much everything is something they do "correctly".

[kolak]

Those are laptop screens, so there is no easy way to use them as 2nd screen anyway.
If you want a control, you buy a monitor which can be calibrated (or LUT box), but this is really not a 'home' tech and cost solid $.

Mac at least offers some color management, where on Windows it's all mess. In the same time nothing stop MS to offer some color management which allows you to easily control your screen. There is something already there, but it never seems to work.

We are talking about bit different things- you not really talking about home tech, but more a pro (I worked at top VFX house and had access to Sony HDR OLED monitor and Dolby). Things don't have to be that expensive to be accurate enough and can be controlled by OS. It's just needs to be finally written and implemented properly (but it won't as there is no real money in it to be made). Specialised tech like SDI, etc. is past as all can be achieved way easier now. Video is nothing more than a data, so no need to treat it in special way to pass it from A to B. Metadata is hugely underestimated if not a Dolby (private company!) initiative and push we would be still watching Rec.709 at 100nits :)
Dolby worked on HDR for long time and they use to show it (behind the doors) to professionals on many shows, but reception was so poor. Industry is scared of new as it cost them money and necessarily brings money.

You can write own player and control HDMI metadata regardless of OS, no?

[huhn]

no i'm not talking about laptops... they literally have external device which can't be properly used outside of mac OS by design not by something that other OS can't do.

gaming monitors are missing these basic things but even cheap TV fully supported gamut control over HDMI signals. for many many years i should add.
You can write own player and control HDMI metadata regardless of OS, no?
yes?

[kolak]

I assume so, as there are pro players which allows you to monitor HDR over GPU's HDMI and let you take full control over it.

Can't madVR talk to GPU directly and pass HDR metadata (regardless of Win settings)?

[huhn]

yes nvidia and AMD have API to use HDMI meta data.
that's the problem these monitors don't care because they are not able to handle this correctly they use wide gamut always even if bt 709 is send or at best have a very bad clamp.
if they support fake HDR they usually can gamut map this which is just hilarious...

bt2020 to 95% DCI P3 D65 yes .
bt709 to bt709 nope.

[kolak]

Unless you use good monitor like Eizo, but even then you in most cases ned to switch mode manually.

With Eizo there is a way to control it by connecting USB cable and having special commands sends through it. There is a NLE which can control Eizo monitors this way depending on project settings you choose. Same could be done for the player.

I don't get why monitor can't switch itself to correct mode based on info which travels on HDMI. All needed info is there.

[aufkrawall]

While it would be great if more displays could handle flagged signals accordingly, one big issue remains: Lots of them would screw up anyway, e.g. by locking color or even brightness settings, introducing banding or scoring just low sRGB scores. I wouldn't want to sacrifice native display 6500k white point, doing it via calibration lowers contrast ratio (at least if its not OLED).

Ideally we would be able to feed Windows or the GPU driver a 3D LUT (or it would generate a proper one from the ICC profile itself) and it would do high quality conversion all the time before scan out. In case there is content with other non wide gamuts like rec601, applications could just convert them to rec709 (lots of seemingly rec601 content is downscaled rec709 content without proper flags/conversion anyway).
HDR would still toggle native wide gamut mode.

[huhn]

there is absolutely no issue with doing such things with TV including entry class ones.
ICC aren't good enough to gamut map properly and while a 3D LUT would do the trick a proper one cost noteable performance.

white point has nothing todo with this why the white point or brightness or what ever is locked in sRGB or BT 709 modes is absolutely beyond me.

do not forget nearly all programs don't tell the OS what color gamut is used. this will change now but old programs will not get updated so BT 709 has to be guessed.

[aufkrawall]

there is absolutely no issue with doing such things with TV including entry class ones.

I temporarily had a monitor with sRGB clamp and it both locked colors (annoyingly cold white point) and introduced banding.
Monitors aren't TVs. Those cheap TVs you mentioned often have absurd input lag.


ICC aren't good enough to gamut map properly

Nope, mpv can pick up ICC profile and when specifying gamma 2.4, it looks exactly like DisplayCal's 3D LUT with 100% black output offset. There might me mathematical differences, but they don't really matter. There is 0 banding and it works on my crappy Gemini Lake GPU.


and while a 3D LUT would do the trick a proper one cost noteable performance.

What is "notable"? It's rather cheap in ReShade.


white point has nothing todo with this why the white point or brightness or what ever is locked in sRGB or BT 709 modes is absolutely beyond me.

It probably is related because scalers (or how else you would call the component that does color adjustments) in monitors are so limited.

[huhn]

I temporarily had a monitor with sRGB clamp and it both locked colors (annoyingly cold white point) and introduced banding.
Monitors aren't TVs. Those cheap TVs you mentioned often have absurd input lag.
or better input lag. they are not gaming displays but the gamut mapping is not the reason they are lower.
LG OLED screens are one of the fastest screen on the market if not the fastest well aware they are not cheap.

gaming displays are just bad because they get away with it.
Nope, mpv can pick up ICC profile and when specifying gamma 2.4, it looks exactly like DisplayCal's 3D LUT with 100% black output offset. There might me mathematical differences, but they don't really matter. There is 0 banding and it works on my crappy Gemini Lake GPU.
a proper program can use them properly but that needs work and mpv put that work in to get results you can not except other program developer to do the same. if you just let windows do it ouch...

What is "notable"? It's rather cheap in ReShade.
last time i checked reshade 3D LUTs are very very low end and produce banding. that was when it was very new and dispalcal just added support these 3D LUT are really tiny.
3d LUT in madVR can kill entire entry class GPU just from tonemapping even my gtx 960 didn't have enough processing power to do that reliable. and even if it is doable easily on new GPU you still lose like 5 % performance that's quite a lot.

i can't believe that reshade get's away without losing some FPS in games just calling a shader cost at least 0.2 ms in my experience even if the shader does nothing.
It probably is related because scalers (or how else you would call the component that does color adjustments) in monitors are so limited.

they have to really cheap out but that's just how it is...
hardware unboxed test this and yes clamps are usually very very badly implemented and need ICC profiles to be of any use so they are sadly pretty useless. there are some that are not terrible but i'm not following screens right now. if i need to buy one write now i would look for one that can't do DCI p3 D65 sounds dumb but i like accurate colors.

[aufkrawall]

LG OLED screens are one of the fastest screen on the market if not the fastest well aware they are not cheap.

Yeah, they make PC monitors look bad in a lot, if not all regards.


if you just let windows do it ouch...

Yes, Windows color management is indeed extra bad. It even is too stupid to apply 1D LUT without a shipton of banding. That amount of incompetence really is remarkable. Hopefully Linux Wayland desktop will crush this garbage around 2025, but app support will of course still be an issue, at least partially...



last time i checked reshade 3D LUTs are very very low end and produce banding. that was when it was very new and dispalcal just added support these 3D LUT are really tiny.

I suspect the banding isn't necessarily caused by the size of the 3D LUT, but by either missing precision for ReShade effects in general or missing dithering (or both).
ReShade can force D3D applications into 10 bit frame buffer and this decreases introduced banding by the 3D LUT to a really acceptable amount for gaming (and Windows dithers down to 8 bit for 8 bit displays).
Interestingly the old Mirror's Edge game from 2009 has very clear skybox gradients with just very little banding, I found this to be a good testcase.



3d LUT in madVR can kill entire entry class GPU just from tonemapping even my gtx 960 didn't have enough processing power to do that reliable. and even if it is doable easily on new GPU you still lose like 5 % performance that's quite a lot.

Yes, but truth is the development of madVR had stopped before madshi implemented more performance optimizations. E.g. also the Jinc scaler is very slow compared to mpv's.


if i need to buy one write now i would look for one that can't do DCI p3 D65 sounds dumb but i like accurate colors.
I would do the same, though it seems basically every relatively recent LCD panel is DCI-P3 these days. I tested ~a dozen of >= 144Hz 1440p devices (mostly IPS, but also some VA) and they all were wide gamut without exception.
I think the first 1440p 144Hz IPS panels by AU Optronics still were closer to sRGB, but they were of terrible quality otherwise.

[kolak]

While it would be great if more displays could handle flagged signals accordingly, one big issue remains: Lots of them would screw up anyway, e.g. by locking color or even brightness settings, introducing banding or scoring just low sRGB scores. I wouldn't want to sacrifice native display 6500k white point, doing it via calibration lowers contrast ratio (at least if its not OLED).

Ideally we would be able to feed Windows or the GPU driver a 3D LUT (or it would generate a proper one from the ICC profile itself) and it would do high quality conversion all the time before scan out. In case there is content with other non wide gamuts like rec601, applications could just convert them to rec709 (lots of seemingly rec601 content is downscaled rec709 content without proper flags/conversion anyway).
HDR would still toggle native wide gamut mode.

This is similar how OSX is doing it. Any properly tagged video gets converted to screen profile. If profile describes screen accurately then you have correct preview regardless of the screen. It's all down to screen capabilities then.

I just done HDR grading on new MacBook for my holiday video in Resolve (using fact that on Mac Resolve GUI offers accurate preview including HDR). Looks great as HDR. I took this video and played it on older Mac with SDR screen. QTX does tonne mapping (uses HDR metadata, so file needs to be properly flagged) and converts preview to screen profile, so SDR representation of my HDR grade is correct. It's not as good as my old native SDR grade, but absolutely fine. Best bit- if you take this video to other Mac with different screen you get "same" SDR preview. As long as profiles are close to real screen parameters you get about same preview on different machines (assuming they are all about 100% Rec.709 gamut), which is exactly how it should work.
Try doing this on Windows :)

Of course ideal solution is for any screen to have today 100% P3 gamut and 1000nits HDR support+ modes for HD and SD standards. If video is in one of the official standards then screen switches to given profile and if not you get good conversion to P3 'main' profile. This is how pro world works, expect they don't really relay on any auto switching (and conversion) but it's all set by human on both sides to the same profile- video feeding app and screen itself. Sometimes they forget to switch mode in the monitor and waste eg. time on grading which is useless. It happens :)
As long as we keep getting screens which are so far from any standard (and their profiles) none of it will work well.

[aufkrawall]

Thanks for those Mac insights!

According to this Reddit Thread, Eizo recommends to stay away from Windows 11 due to brokenness with ICC profiles:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/qg8dcg/for_those_of_you_going_crazy_over_icc_profiles/
Likely explains why installing the ICC profile doesn't work for me...

But that linked tool dwm_lut is interesting, it indeed works. It has some limitations and causes a lot of GPU load, but I can watch 1080p video via streaming apps with proper sRGB gamut mapping. :cool:

[huhn]

it's sadly not really possible to speed it up by a lot.
3d LUT are very straight forward what they do and how to apply them.

just to make that clear i didn't say it's impossible.

[kolak]

I assume inside monitors they must have good chips to manage LUTs. Eizo HDR monitors use 24bit LUTs, so those must be quite demanding.

[nevcairiel]

LUTs are not particularly expensive to apply, you just need enough memory to store them, otherwise its basically just one lookup per pixel, something GPUs are good at, and dedicated image processors are even better at. If that DWM LUT tool is particularly slow, its probably due to the fact that its an external hook that adds an additional rendering pass and copies all textures around once. And most importantly, it disables DirectFlip, which every typical fullscreen rendering probably otherwise uses to bypass DWM entirely.

[huhn]

madVR dies to it too you can easily trigger that with an intel i GPU or i even trigger it with a 960.

the first issue is a 3D LUT is to "small" for a better word so it can not simply look up a color it has to calculate it (madVR uses trilinear) this needs processing power it's simple but it's not zero.
next issue is for a lack of better words again they are to "big"
which trigger heavy slow downs with "rare colors" was the word used by madshi if i remember correctly.
there is also the issue with how big a single texture can be which can be quite different depend on the GPU. GPU caps viewer shows this information under vulkan.

a 1060 has this for vulkan
maxImageDimension1D: 32768
maxImageDimension2D: 32768
maxImageDimension3D: 16384
maxImageDimensionCube: 32768

the DWM 3D LUT should have a little easier job by been inputting with 10 or 8 bit data not 16 bit float but on the other hand new GPU really like FP16 and clearly not int10.

[nevcairiel]

there is also the issue with how big a single texture can be which can be quite different depend on the GPU. GPU caps viewer shows this information under vulkan.

a 1060 has this for vulkan
maxImageDimension1D: 32768
maxImageDimension2D: 32768
maxImageDimension3D: 16384
maxImageDimensionCube: 32768

You do realize how big a 16384x16384x16384 3D LUT texture would be, right? :D
You'll explode your video memory long before these dimensions are a limit, because you need a x^3 texture in all dimensions, so even 1024^3 would already be a gigabyte of space in 8-bit.

So most practial 3DLUTs are likely at most 512^3 or smaller, which is where interpolation comes in to fill in the gaps.

[huhn]

madVR 3D LUT are 256^3(which are the biggest i'm aware of 65/64 is already considered huge and monitors easy go down to 16.) which is 100 mb so irrelevant but that'S not the issue it's the temporary calculated numbers usually in the green.

beware my 1060 size is insane compared to the 960 and i have no clue what Dx9 has available.

there are rendertimes of 200ms just from the 3D LUT and madshi sad something about the use of smaller 3D LUT the memory is clearly not the issue here.

feel free to find out what the real issue is. i tried to find the bug report about it but it was not my report. there will be report of this from me here ont eh forum but they are at best old.

edit: the input is a float point number you always have to fill in gaps with madVR.

[e-t172]

there are rendertimes of 200ms just from the 3D LUT and madshi sad something about the use of smaller 3D LUT the memory is clearly not the issue here.
feel free to find out what the real issue is. i tried to find the bug report about it but it was not my report. there will be report of this from me here ont eh forum but they are at best old.

I did report an issue (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=462) back in the day where using a 3DLUT with a weak Intel GPU would make render times shoot up but only on certain scenes. You even commented on it. The main hypothesis was that the GPU would evict parts of the 3DLUT from some cache due to rarely used colors, and would struggle to get them back when these colors happened to be used.

[aufkrawall]

GPU usage doesn't really increase on a RTX 3060 when using 3D LUT in madVR.
Edit: Additional VRAM consumption is ~220MB.

[nevcairiel]

Its quite possible that D3D9 in madVR is a factor. D3D9 is quite limited as it comes to resource management, and the driver/API certainly plays a role there. There aren't enough caches to cache the entire 3DLUT in any case, or a full video texture for that matter, so it has to do a reasonable job at accessing it from video memory directly, or nothing would work.
Like I hinted at above, texture sampling should be a bread and butter operation for any GPU, even if 3D textures are a bit rarer.

[huhn]

the vulkan numbers are very convincing if that's even the reason this happens.

this alone is a good reason to move on from dx9 the 19 years of age are also a good reason.

[aufkrawall]

I guess the 3D LUT format for madVR can be described as "maxed out". When you generate in IRIDAS format, it is already just a fraction in size.
But probably even ~600KB ReShade format would look fine when properly applied in fp16 precision + dithering.

[Balling]

Well, also on Android you can just enforce sRGB gamut mapping globally for it seems every UI element without exception(?). Windows (but also Linux Xorg) is just excessively stupid in that regard. Hope it gets better with Wayland on Linux, the corresponding protocol has been in the making for ages...

You cannot. That debug setting does not work in many cases.

[Balling]

I think you can't on Windows, afaik neither the Netflix/Disney+ etc. store apps make use of the installed ICC profile, or any browser when it comes to video or even Widevine decoding. So such content on a wide gamut display will have goofy LSD-like colors, at least with Rec709 content. The TV would have to do the color conversion, but then you probably can just use the integrated apps of a SmartTV instead of a HTPC anyway. Well, and with a regular monitor, you're screwed. It's really pathetic. :o
Though I gotta say I really also dislike brightness locks or other artificial limitations.

ICC profile is not to be used when you output to hdr screen using hdr swapchain.

[speedy]

Has anyone figured out what type of performance hit there is from running dwm_lut? Disabling/closing and then re-opening it doesn't seem to yield a noticeable difference in the benchmarks I've ran.

[aufkrawall]

We talked about colorimeters a few months ago in the madVR thread. In the meantime, I temporarily got hands on an X-Rite i1 Pro and Spyder X in addition to my old Spyder 4. Observations:
-the X-Rite is basically unusable with generic spectral correction profiles, white is off and relatively low gamut coverage scores with all displays tested with all generic correction profiles
-with a spectral correction profile specifically targeted for a given device, much better results can be achieved. But they apparently need to fit extra well too, else white can still be a bit off
-so I think you need to be extra lucky with correction profiles with the i1 Pro for your given display, else you can buy a spectrometer too
-the SpyderX is much more forgivable with its generic LCD white LED correction (as is the Spyder 4, if not even more)
-you need to update ArgyllCMS to a newer version than shipped by DisplayCal to make the SpyderX work correctly on Windows (including unsigned driver)
-it works out of the box on Linux distributions that ship recent Argyll, such as Arch-based ones (Manjaro live boot environment does the trick)
-both the X-Rite and the SpyderX fail when it comes to correctly measuring gamma of the two VA displays tested, it is measured ~0.2 too bright
-the old Spyder 4 can measure it correctly (i.e. 2.2 for both displays' default setting)
-the old Spyder 4 seems to be less tolerant toward the green part of white, but target of 6500k determined by it looks well to me with all displays tested. Though in reality, it might be a bit colder than that number.
-despite of the Spyder 4 failing miserably in detecting both white and black brightness, this really seems to be of little to no consequence for the actual calibration result in comparison to the newer colorimeters with typical gamma 2.2/2.4 curves
-for whatever reason, the old Spyder 4 scores by far the highest DCI-P3 scores when comparing with generic spectral correction profiles

Note that this is seen through consumer goggles, I don't care for lowest deviations that meet cleanroom criteria.

[huhn]

you just compared two meter with each other. there is nothing you can compare it to without a spectrometer.

this is just random number you have here without a reverence you have nothing to compare it too.

these meter have been more than once been compared to spectrometer.

[aufkrawall]

You missed the point. Only few enthusiasts buy a spectrometer with their colorimeter. That's why there are generic correction profiles and the online database for specific correction profiles with a particular colorimeter and display. When whitepoint is off in an obvious way, that's a sure sign that the spectral correction profile isn't close to optimal at all. My post was about how usable the different colorimeters proved to be without (!) spectrometer. No need for comments like "But spectrometer!!" or "random numbers" (typical huhn hyperbole). Of course you can always fund me a spectrometer...

[huhn]

but you don't have a clue how white looks like without a Spectro meter.

-both the X-Rite and the SpyderX fail when it comes to correctly measuring gamma of the two VA displays tested, it is measured ~0.2 too bright
-the old Spyder 4 can measure it correctly (i.e. 2.2 for both displays' default setting)

why even calibrate if the display is already better then your meter wow...

and you wouldn't believe how little it matters if the white point is off because your eye is made to correct it the important part part is that the error is steady and doesn't change over the gamma curve.

d65 is kinda red. you just go and say the white point of a spyder on my display with the correction(without even stating them) i have here looks more white to me tested on two VA panels.
if you think the white point is better ( by eye) just read the calibrated white point with a i1 d3 and use the read white point you should end up with a very similar one.

BTW. the i1 pro(i1pro 2/3) is a spectrometer the usually colorimeter is the i1d3(tons of names i1 display or pro colormunki for example).

if you want to know why the i1d3 is considered to be a much better meter do some close to black reading on i don't know a cheap oled mobile phone or something.

[Damien147]

I think I know the answers but just to confirm.

Can you calibrate HDR?

My colorimeter(colormunki display) is 1000 nits.If my display is higher than 1000 nits I need a new colorimeter?

[huhn]

i never tried such a think but i guess so.

[aufkrawall]

but you don't have a clue how white looks like without a Spectro meter.

Both 6500K and 6800K are "white", to throw some random numbers. It is impossible to guess what you actually intend to say, so I'll leave it there.


why even calibrate if the display is already better then your meter wow...

Of course the measurements are very likely wrong in this case, the chances that both office PC displays are gamma 2.4 with their default gamma setting are unrealistic.


d65 is kinda red.

:stupid: It is not.

[huhn]

you have 2 modern meters at and and they agree and you take the results of an old known to drift meter and say the other too are wrong seriously...

[aufkrawall]

Seriously, if you can't distinguish gamma 2.2 from 2.4, please don't reply to my posts.

[huhn]

smart...
so can i distinguish gamma 2.4 and 2.2. yes i can... i can make you even images of that but it has nothing todo with this.
but your absolute disregarded of calibration and understanding of it the issue here is now i can't see the difference between gammas because you have to point your finger at something when you have zero arguments.

you have 3 meters one telling it is gamma 2.2 and two tell you it is 2.4 and now you talk about seeing the difference i can't see your stuff and even if i do.
you don't have a clue which is correct if you just take the data
just read your own stuff:
-despite of the Spyder 4 failing miserably in detecting both white and black brightness, this really seems to be of little to no consequence for the actual calibration result in comparison to the newer colorimeters with typical gamma 2.2/2.4 curves
do you even know how gamma is measured at all?
by reading brightness which you confirm (based on what is yet another mystery) to be bad.

by using your magical gamma seeing eyes.

wow smart but can i see the difference between 2.2 and 2.4 calibrated from meter i don't have here on displays i don't have here?
no i obviously can't.

you are claiming a spider x and a i1d3 can't do a gamma ramp at all because the objectively worse meter looks better to you in a calibration thread...

[aufkrawall]

you are claiming a spider x and a i1d3 can't do a gamma ramp at all because the objectively worse meter looks better to you in a calibration thread...
No, I said this is what happens exclusively with those particular two VA panel monitors. You read what your confirmation bias wants you to read. The old Spyder 4 correctly measures gamma as 2.2 with OLED devices (no difference in this case vs. the two newer colorimeters), so don't make up even more bullsh*t you want to be true to fit your point.

[huhn]

getting a wrong gamma means your meter reads brightness wrong depending on the level.

do you know what happens when your black/white is read to high/low? this changes your effective measured gamma. you sad your spyder reads brightness for black and white wrong this literally means it is reading the gamma for these wrong. how you confirmed that i don't know. why would it do a better job at the other brightness level then the other meter sorry that's hard to understand.
yes the spyder x and i1d3 could be wrong here i have no clue how old they are but that's not my point my point is you can not properly proof that like this.
you could also show the gamma reading?

btw. feel free to read how long the life expectancy of a spyder 4 is about 3 years that's it.
i have to sadly replace my i1d3 because it could have drifted too. some people will tell you they are not like old meter that life about 3 years which is true.. that doesn't mean they will live forever or even close to.

i was not in the boat of the spyder is useless because the spyder x is a fine meter.

there are also test done compared to spectrometer:
https://www.chromapure.com/newgear_i1%20Display%20Pro%20Accuracy.asp
https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp

[aufkrawall]

getting a wrong gamma means your meter reads brightness wrong depending on the level.

do you know what happens when your black/white is read to high/low? this changes your effective measured gamma.

Doesn't make sense. The x-rite measured contrast of 1100:1 for my IPS device and reports gamma 2.2. The Spyder 4 measures 770:1 and reports gamma 2.2 too...

I suspect you are greatly exaggerating brightness measurements as a factor for pure power gamma 2.2/2.4 curves. Even BT.1886 still is similarly bright for dark shades with the x-rite/spyderx compared to spyder 4 and I dare to say hardly anybody would notice the difference in a double blind test...

[huhn]

i don't have your number.
black offset is unlikely to change it but can. it highly depends on the formula and how cleaver it ignores close to black numbers or if you did it yourself.
if you try to measure stimilus 10 % but your device can't read the difference between it and stimulus 5% you would get odd gamma values.
stimulus 10% for gamma 2.2 is 0.63 % for 2.4 it is 0.40 %.
depending on how deep your screen can go it could produce values the spyder 4 can't read and it will see a very low gamma.

white will be drastic.
for 90% stimulus the difference between gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4 is ~1.6 % brightness(77.66% and 79.31). just assume what 5 or 10 % would do to the calculated gamma.
if the device is actually 100 nits but it reports 110 nits i leave the rest up to your math.
without accurate white you can't even calculate correct gamma numbers it's pretty much end here. even if all other stimulus are read correctly the calculated gamma is just plain wrong.
but i don't know how off your spyder reported white is by 5% 20% no clue. 1% shouldn't matter to do a gamma difference of 0.2 but i didn't calculated it.

but i will do the math for 100 nits 2.4 read as 2.2 it is:
97.9 nits that's not much...
for stimulus 90% an error of 2.1 nits stimulus 100% is a gamma difference of 0.2... assuming stimulus 90% is read correctly.

in the end you just had to compare the stimulus that it can read accurately to see where they disagree and where they agree.

and if you think i'm exaggerating the important of brightness gamma is calculated from the peak white. looks like i was heavily underestimating it feel free to check the math it's not like it do this every day.

[aufkrawall]

~0 difference in measured gamma between 81nits (as reported by Spyder 4) and 125nits:
https://abload.de/thumb/81nitsrqk7l.png (https://abload.de/image.php?img=81nitsrqk7l.png) https://abload.de/thumb/125nitst2jre.png (https://abload.de/image.php?img=125nitst2jre.png)

I could of course also verify the gamma correction on basis of Spyder 4 measurements with SpyderX validation. But do I feel like it? Nope, because result would be as "surprising" as the one above and thus waste of time.

[huhn]

sorry i need far more context.
i just see to measurements that are very similar that's all.

one is supposed to be 81 the other 125.
why would the gamma look massively different?
it also the same meter isn't it?

[aufkrawall]

Plot twist: Looks like the previous i1 DisplayPro I had access to before was just broken. Got hands on a "new" one (packaging was still sealed) and calibrations with it don't cause yellowish white tint.
Switching between VCGTs of the Spyder 4 and i1 DisplayPro with gamma 2.4 98% black output offset hardly changes the image at all. BT.1886 is a bit brighter with the Spyder 4. So, gamma behaves as expected.

However, there is another issue, which actually is a significant one: Since the Spyder 4 detects much wider native gamuts with every display vs. both the SpyderX and i1 DisplayPro (the latter the narrowest), gamut mapping results with the Spyder 4 are much more desaturated. This seems to get worse the bigger the display gamut is, which in return means gamut mapping with the Spyder 4 is completely unusable with wide gamut displays (well, but ofc still better than extremely oversaturated rec709 without any clamp at all). I've seen such results also with the Spyder 5 on the internet (e.g. for my very display, somebody on YT scores the exactly same DCI-P3 coverage with a Spyder 5 as I do with the allegedly even much older Spyder 4 unit).

When it comes to SpyderX vs. i1 DisplayPro, the latter also seems to be the much better choice due to the vast amount of spectral correction profiles for that sensor. It saved the day when calibrating a Dell G3223Q, which was impossible to calibrate with the SpyderX (factory "calibration" of its white point is a sick joke).

[Damien147]

The last time I calibrated after calibrating whitepoint I noticed that the TV dropped from the 100 nits target and had to adjust backlight again supposedly but I think I've read that you don't touch it after whitepoint and left it like that.Is it true that you leave backlight like that after whitepoint calibration or it's ok to readjust backlight to target nits?

[Damien147]

Or maybe I could calibrate backlight to 110 nits intentionally to drop by itself to the 100 nits target after whitepoint calibration.Is it a good idea?

[Damien147]

I got confused and calibrated my TV by setting the GPU to YCbCr 4:2:0.After the calibration I changed the GPU to full RGB and 0-255 for the rest of the chain.Am I fine or do I need to calibrate again for full RGB?

[huhn]

just run a verification

[Damien147]

I tried to run a verification but I didn't know how to do it and I ended calibrating again.There was something wrong with the picture and now it's better.Thanks for the answer.

[Damien147]

GPU:full RGB with Madvr and TV set at 0-255.The TV runs at 4:2:2 because I am trying to get rid of PC mode(4:4:4).Is there any problem running with this configuration by having madvr playback in mind?

[huhn]

yes it not as good but is not a problem in general.

[Damien147]

Ok,thank you.

[Damien147]

I want to create a 3dlut to calibrate my picture to bt.709,6500k and bt.1886.I opened displaycal and put the Video 3D Lut for MadVR setting.I run it with default settings and then I created a verification report with also default settings.I get this (https://ibb.co/QcfSWm5)result.Am I doing something wrong?If yes what do I need to change?

In displaycal's display & instrument tab I only chose my TV where it was saying Madvr and left correction at auto.

[Damien147]

I found the proper correction for my TV and loaded it.Now I am running the calibration again with default settings.Am I doing it right?


edit: Again these (https://ibb.co/Ns7DdHq)''not ok'' results.What do they mean?What do I have to do?

[huhn]

o wow...

there are multiply reasons this could happen one would be vivid mode.
the device is simply not stable so it can not be calibrated as it is now.

or you are just not verifying the new 3d lut where 3d LUT is simply not loaded.
if that's the case you should really fix your white point before calibration.

edit: btw. the KU6300 can't do 23p at all(it will accept it but will do a 3:2 which is liberally the same as send 60 in the first place). if you want 23p as the creator intents 60 +SM is the best you can do on this TV.

[Damien147]

I returned to PC mode and there I have standard and dynamic mode,I have the TV at standard mode.I have calibrated 2 point grayscale and set whitepoint to warm 2 which is supposedly closest to 6500k.Then I run the 3dlut for Madvr and when the 3dlut was created I cancelled the installation.I do it like that and move the 3dlut only to a folder in madvr,then I load it in madvr.I suppose I did it right but did wrong the verification.I also asked in displaycal forum and got this answer:
You are not validating with LUT3D applied. You are validating if your display without profile VCGT calibration, only with OSD settings yiu changed, matches Rec709Â… and it does not, which is expected.

You need to apply LUT3D and measure pacthes in madVR TPG like in HCFR tool, or you can validate in DisplayCAL with ICC equivalent of a LUT3D (device link).

I can't understand sh*t.


If I did the procedure fine as it seems I don't care how to properly verify the 3dlut because if I understand well there's not much I can do.Am I right?

About the 23p you said I tried to experiment these days but I returned to 60 +SM as I was now.

[huhn]

hm
https://abload.de/img/3dlutt5i17.png

well i don't know i mean a delta of over 4 for white point should not be there if you calibrated it before may it is the correction and the old calibration is for no correction so it has to be redone?
or it may not find it.

sorry i don't use a 3D LUT currently my OLED is not stable enough to get a calibration through.

[Damien147]

I don't know what else to do if I did the procedure right beyond my mistake with the verification.In pc mode I have only 2 point White Balance,10 point is disabled.My settings and what I did with the 3dlut for madvr if I want my TV calibrated to bt.709,6500K and bt.1886 are right supposedly,correct?

[huhn]

do you have a tint option?

[Damien147]

No,it's grayed out in PC mode.The most accurate picture mode is the movie mode on my TV from reading reviews around but I have to deal with standard mode because of PC mode.I have option only for standard and dynamic mode.As it seems standard mode is not that accurate but that's the only option I have and have to deal with that as I said.Supposedly a 3dlut for madvr fixes these inaccuracies and lack of some options because they are greyed out.

To conclude I want my TV calibrated to bt709,6500k with bt.1886(for Madvr only) in PC mode where I am forced to use the not so accurate standard mode with the limited options.

I've set the TV to warm 2 which is the closest to 6500k and adjusted backlight to 100 nits.Then I've calibrated 2 point and moved to displaycal for the 3dlut.

I chose Video 3dlut for Madvr in displaycal settings and loaded the correction for my TV.Then I run it with default settings and when the 3dlut finished I chose cancel.

I moved the 3dlut only that was made in a Madvr folder and loaded it in Madvr.

Is the procedure I did correct?

[Damien147]

In displaycal forum they told me to use the device link profile in the verification tab.I just ticked it and run it as it has a LUT3D equivalent “device link” ICC file.These (https://ibb.co/St42GFK)are the results and everything seems good!!!!

Thank you very much huhn for helping me out.

[Siso]

@chros what black output offset should I use with a monitor with 902:1 contrast, and black level 0.1116 cd/m²? The gamma will be 2.4 relative or absolute? I wrote in the SDR Display EOTF (Gamma 2.2/2.4 or BT.1886) tread but no one replied me.

[Damien147]

By adjusting TV's backlight and creating a 3dlut for Madvr is all you need to have a calibrated picture,am I right?

[Damien147]

When I calibrate I create a 3dlut for madvr for my TV but for my monitor I just use an icc profile that I created for general usage.Am I losing something picture quality wise compared to a 3dlut by using an icc profile with madvr for my monitor?

[huhn]

yes.
a 3D LUT is created an icc and the is a good reason this takes minutes.
for an icc file it now has less than an ms.

you are also not defining a target gamma and such in the same way.

[Damien147]

Ok,next time I will create a 3dlut for my monitor too.Thank you.

[Damien147]

I have a maybe silly question but I wanna make sure.
I calibrate once a year as I know as recommended and now it's been almost a year since calibrating my monitor and TV.I am thinking about skipping calibration this time because I am lazy and calibrate next year again.
My question is does picture calibration drift by usage or by time?I mean my TV was off for almost 6 months and I was using my monitor only for 1-2 hours daily during the summer.Does it matter?
Can I get away without calibrating this time and do it again in a year if I am not missing much?Or I am missing?Just for movies with Madvr,no photo work or whatever.
Picture looks fine to me.

[huhn]

just run a vertification.
depends on the hardware and they usual age by use.

[Damien147]

Of course I can run a verification but if I put myself in the procedure to move my TV and blah blah blah I will end up calibrating the TV.
If they age by usage usually it means that calibration drifts with usage usually and by having in mind that TV was off for almost 6 months I think I can get away with it as a conclusion.
I mean TV is calibrated for almost a year but because it was off for the half time it probably means that calibration drifted less.It's just for movies.
I created the 3dlut for my monitor in August with my previous question by the way.

Thank you very much huhn,you are always very helpful.