Evaluation of HEVC decoders (SW, Hybrid and HW)

[huhn]

the microsoft decoder can decode 10 bit.

[CruNcher]

the jitter issue seems only really fixable hardware accelerated in different configuration with Nvidia Cuvid on that beauty sample

http://abload.de/thumb/fixed0su4v.jpg (http://abload.de/image.php?img=fixed0su4v.jpg)

[P.J]

How did you enable that information?

[CruNcher]

Ctrl+j

Crazy Stuff :)

DXVA

http://abload.de/thumb/3xperformancelossgns73.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=3xperformancelossgns73.png)

CUVID/Copyback

http://abload.de/thumb/3xperformancewinuwsw2.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=3xperformancewinuwsw2.png)

x64 Software

http://abload.de/thumb/softwaregyuob.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=softwaregyuob.png)

[Yups]

So, yes if you compare a 48EUs 1100 MHz vs a 20 EUs 1250 MHz GPU the
difference couldn't be exactly doubled or even more than doubled, but we are playing with figures here around very small percentages near to x2+ performance.


Couldn't be? Maybe re-check the reviews, it is pretty much a doubling. Some games a bit more, some a bit less but overall a doubling.



Since sandybridge and the first iGPU of Intel, the most critical parameter regarding GPU performance was always the number of EUs rather than internal architecture.


There was a pretty big overhaul with Gen7 (especially GPU Computing), basically twice the computing power. At the same clock there was a 50% improvement in games with 33% more EUs over Sandy Bridge, with current drivers probably much more. Not to mention that EU increases don't scale linear because of other limitations like bandwidth. A 20% EU increase alone is unlikely to give 20% more extra performance. Gen8 did with the help of other enhancements in the architecture (like more texture samplers). As a result SKL GT2 with 24 EUs is most likely way more than a doubling over Sandy Bridge with 12 EUs.


So I expect a GT2 Skylake to be around 20% faster than GT2 Haswell.

I expect a 30% improvement which lowers the difference to ~75%. And even with your 20% expectation a doubling isn't really accurate.

[NikosD]

looks like MS MF HEVC decoding with windows 10240 is broken. did someone have the same problem?

I was stuck at build 10049 with my second backup system because Windows update was broken in both slow and fast ring.

So, today I decided to do a clean install of latest 240 build (RTM ?).

It seemed to me like a very stable and bug free release especially when compared to 049 after a few hours of work.

Edge is very fast, but is still missing features compared to IE.

Anyway, regarding MS MFT HEVC decoder, it didn't work.

I used latest DXVA checker and nightly LAV filters and although DXVA checker enumerated the MS HEVC decoder, it didn't show up with various .mkv, .mp4

I'm guessing incompatibility with DXVA checker (didn't try WMP) or LAV splitter or a Microsoft's bug.

[sneaker_ger]

Isn't the Microsoft decoder Media Foundation only? Then it cannot connect to DirectShow splitters like LAV.

[NikosD]

You are right, MS HEVC decoder is MFT only.

[huhn]

so my system isn't broken good to know.

[NikosD]

Latest Nvidia drivers 353.30 are still WDDM 1.3 - DX 11.x for Fermi.

Still no WDDM 2.0 - DX12 drivers for Fermi, even for Win 10 RTM

[huhn]

they may never come they are relatively old cards. the current windows 10 driver is 353.50 maybe kepler+ only.

[aufkrawall]

Nvidia officially have announced DX12 support for Fermi GPUs.

[huhn]

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2015/05/15/dx-12-game-ready-drivers/

ok no questions.

feature level is already a problem for kepler cards so real dx 12 needs the new cards

[P.J]

Latest Nvidia drivers 353.30 are still WDDM 1.3 - DX 11.x for Fermi.

Still no WDDM 2.0 - DX12 drivers for Fermi, even for Win 10 RTM

Then the Windows 10 driver is still WDDM 1.3 for GTX900 series?

[NikosD]

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2015/05/15/dx-12-game-ready-drivers/

ok no questions.

feature level is already a problem for kepler cards so real dx 12 needs the new cards
You have misunderstood what Microsoft did and wanted for DX12.

It's the first time that Microsoft allowed for old and very old HW like Fermi to support the basic very crucial features of the new DX12 API like the low CPU overhead.

That doesn't mean of course that Fermi could support every feature of DX12, just the basic, very essential core features.

That's why MS implemented the feature levels in order to add features on the basic core, for advanced HW.

So, when we are talking about Fermi's or Kepler's DX12 support, we mean the basic "core" elements of the new API but with feature level of DX11.x

Nvidia has promised DX12 support for Fermi and I' m waiting for it after the official release on 29th of July.

[huhn]

directx 11 has feature levels too and most nvidia cards doesn't support them up to 11.2. AMD does support 11.2. there is even feature level 11.3.

older directx version where pure software updates so this is nothing new with dx 12.
feature level 11.2 is simply not used so it doesn't really matter but it's a bad after taste.

maxwell is dx12.1 not 12.0 like kepler.

dx 12 software mode and dx 12 full are to different things and it will play a rule in the feature. maybe for video decoding/presentation maybe not.

if windows 10 gets window mode with 10 bit i wouldn't be shocked a direct x 12.1 card is needed.

[NikosD]

directx 11 has feature levels too and most nvidia cards doesn't support them up to 11.2. AMD does support 11.2. there is even feature level 11.3.

older directx version where pure software updates so this is nothing new with dx 12.
feature level 11.2 is simply not used so it doesn't really matter but it's a bad after taste.

maxwell is dx12.1 not 12.0 like kepler.

dx 12 software mode and dx 12 full are to different things and it will play a rule in the feature. maybe for video decoding/presentation maybe not.

if windows 10 gets window mode with 10 bit i wouldn't be shocked a direct x 12.1 card is needed.

Your post is completely wrong and misleading.

You seem to confuse basic things about new DX12 and although I wrote that before, you obviously didn't bother reading more about this new API before you write another post.

There is no such thing as "dx12 software mode"

The basic, core features of DX12 like low CPU overhead even in single threaded, multi - thread and multi-GPU are features of the new DX12 API that Microsoft wanted to be used by as much older HW as possible and of course they are not "software mode" features, they are part of the new WDDM 2.0 driver.

They use less CPU instead of increasing it, like if they were executed in "software mode"

Also Kepler supports DX12 with feature level 11_0 or 11_1 (it depends on the source Nvidia or Microsoft) but certainly not 12_0, but the whole concept of feature levels are completely irrelevant with DX12 core features.

The DX12 "full" support is something that interests gamers or game developers who want to support every feature of the graphics engine of the new API that would make games look more beautiful.

By the way there is no card out there yet that supports every feature of DX12.

[huhn]

directx 12 is slitted in software feature and hardware feature.
if it is important for video processing/decoding/rendering or not we will see in the feature.

the main feature is the possibility to "directly" use GPU resources. which can be called software directx 12.

and my comment about kepler is that they are only feature level 11.0 not even 11.1.

so where i'm now completely wrong and misleading?

think about what you say sometimes...

[NikosD]

Advices to the others...

The world would definitely be a lot better if we 've been following every advice we give to the others...

[P.J]

Can DX12/WDDM 2.0 do anything with HEVC/10bit decoding? :confused:

[huhn]

never heard of an directcompute decoder/hybrid decoder and ASIC decoders doesn't care anyway. the API is still DXVA 2/DXVA

and i don't know if directcompute benefits from dx12 at all.

could be very useful for rendering and presentation.

[NikosD]

looks like MS MF HEVC decoding with windows 10240 is broken. did someone have the same problem?


Anyway, regarding MS MFT HEVC decoder, it didn't work.


I decided to put Win 10 to my main system (signature) and MS MFT HEVC decoder works just fine.

I don't know why MS MFT HEVC using the same OS version doesn't work with my backup system.

[huhn]

works fine on my nvidia system too.

there where some widows updates have to check my AMD system again.

[huhn]

i haven't installed the updates yet but it is now working. what ever it was it's gone.

MS MF HEVC is still at 59 FPS for my i3 4120. so microsoft hasn't touch this decoder. it is still way faster than lavfilter x64 so well done MS.

[NikosD]

i haven't installed the updates yet but it is now working. what ever it was it's gone.

I finished my upgrades of 4 systems (1 laptop and 3 desktops) and only one - my primary signature system - has a working MS MFT HEVC decoder!

For all the other 3 is not working, at least using DXVA Checker.

But even in the signature working system, one very weird thing happened.

When I try an .mp4 HEVC file, the MS decoder doesn't appear.

Then I try a different .mkv HEVC file and it appears.
And then, when I go back to the first not working .mp4 file, HEVC decoder suddenly works for that too!

It's a bug/ conflict of DXVA Checker or OS.

@huhn

Do you have a yellow question mark in device manager for the Intel HDMI audio driver with a Code 10 error ?

I think that Intel driver didn't install correctly the audio driver or I urged a restart while it was installing (I don't remember exactly)

My last weird thing regarding Win 10 installation, is that the new tab functionality while using a Web browser by pressing the mouse wheel, doesn't work with my wireless RF mouse, but it works with my wired USB mouse on the same laptop!

Oh God of Microsoft!

What's going on ?

[huhn]

i have no yellow question marks in my device manager but i'm not actively using an intel GPU they are just installed.

i tried an mp4 HEVC file and it worked frist try. of cause i didn't loaded any other videos in DXVA checker first.

[NikosD]

if windows 10 gets window mode with 10 bit i wouldn't be shocked a direct x 12.1 card is needed.

After the installation of the new Intel drivers for Win 10 v4256, the HDMI device disappeared completely, so now I have no yellow marks :)

The most important thing though, is that DXVA Checker reports P010 output for 10bit H.265 files during playback with MS MFT HEVC decoder...in window mode !!

[huhn]

After the installation of the new Intel drivers for Win 10 v4256, the HDMI device disappeared completely, so now I have no yellow marks :)

The most important thing though, is that DXVA Checker reports P010 output for 10bit H.265 files during playback with MS MFT HEVC decoder...in window mode !!

that doesn't mean a renderer has outputted 10 bit at all.

[NikosD]

so my system isn't broken good to know.

I finished my upgrades of 4 systems (1 laptop and 3 desktops) and only one - my primary signature system - has a working MS MFT HEVC decoder!

For all the other 3 is not working, at least using DXVA Checker.


I finished installing Win 10 to all my 5 systems (4 desktops 1 laptop) and I found out a pattern, that seems a little strange about when MS MFT HEVC decoder works and when it doesn't.

Well, only one system enables MS MFT HEVC decoder and that is the system with a WDDM 2.0 driver (Haswell) system.

On all my other systems with a WDDM 1.3 driver, there is no MS MFT HEVC decoder enumerating in DXVA Checker or used in WMP12 (MFT player), although it is definitely installed in the system - I can see it in MFT Viewer.

Is this really true ?

Does Microsoft enable its MS MFT HEVC decoder only on systems with WDDM v2.0 GPU drivers ?

More feedback is needed by any of you who have installed Win 10 Build 10240.

[06_taro]

On one of my old laptop with only WDDM 1.1 support, MS MFC HEVC decoder is installed but not usable. Haven't try on other PCs as I'd like to receive official upgrade for them.

[NikosD]

So you' ve just confirmed me.
Thanks.

[sneaker_ger]

Have you tried just playing in Windows Media Player? Maybe it's only a quirk of DXVA checker.

[NikosD]

Have you tried just playing in Windows Media Player? Maybe it's only a quirk of DXVA checker.
From the post above:

"On all my other systems with a WDDM 1.3 driver, there is no MS MFT HEVC decoder enumerating in DXVA Checker or used in WMP12 (MFT player), although it is definitely installed in the system - I can see it in MFT Viewer."

[nussman]

So no HEVC playback in WMP?

[NikosD]

No MS MF HEVC decoder in WMP with non WDDM 2.0 GPU drivers.

But WMP can use Lentoid or LAV HEVC decoders for systems with older than WDDM 2.0 GPU drivers.

[NikosD]

DX12 for Fermi will come later

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3707/

[P.J]

Yea, WMP couldn't play HEVC without breaking the CPU, much worse than LAV CPU
DXVAChecker can decode with DXVA but horrible playback and breaks the CPU

[clsid]

It is strange that software decoding also doesn't work. That shouldn't depend on the driver. Oh well, I prefer LAV anyway. At least it properly falls back to using DirectShow without needing tweaks.

[NikosD]

I don't think that MS MFT HEVC decoder has GPU accelerated capabilities yet.

I don't know if it works with DXVA Nvidia pure HW HEVC decoder, but last time I tested that with Intel Hybrid decoder it didn't work.

So, I was referring to SW MS HEVC decoder not working with older than WDDM 2.0 GPU drivers.
It sounds weird, but probably MS wants to be sure that the GPU driver can output 10bit format properly regardless of the type of decoding (SW/HW).

[huhn]

but you don't need WDDM 2.0 to output 10 bit even windows 7 can do 10 bit output

[NikosD]

In window mode ?

[huhn]

In window mode ?

that was rumoured for windows 10 do you have a conformations?

10 bit fullscreen exclusive is from directx feature level 10.x. so you can already assume you need a new feature level that can do this and so most likely not yet existing hardware if they even add 10 bit window mode.

[Motenai Yoda]

I was on an insider build and IIRC ms's hevc decoder plays well even if my gpu is an old low_end one.
with the upgrade the app plays only audio and wmp refuse or use lav

[NikosD]

Yes, it seems that MS surprised us all and decided just the last minute before the official release to limit the HEVC decoder only to WDDM 2.0 GPU hardware.

What a nice surprise !

[sneaker_ger]

Is the limitation really for WDDM 2.0 or for GPUs with HEVC DXVA support? Maybe they got scared by HEVC Advance.

[NikosD]

Interesting story about HEVC advance...It's all about money (what a surprise)

[Aleksoid1978]

If who interest - Win 10 + GTX 960, vanilla EVR accept P010 for HEVC DXVA 10 bit :) Test in MPC-BE.

[NikosD]

My Haswell's iGPU accepts P010 using MediaFoundation EVR and MS HEVC decoder for 10bit HEVC.

I guess GTX 960 accepts that too and adds to the equation DirectShow EVR with DS HEVC decoder for 10bit HEVC even using DXVA.

[CruNcher]

My guess is security reasons (Content Protection) ;)
WDDM 2.0 comes not only with advances in Performance and such but it needs the Hardware to securely transmit things more efficiently combined with Uefi and SecureBoot and DXVA Protected Mode ;)
Lot of Layers of Security are enabled now ;)

[NikosD]

OK...This is a useful post, I think, about one of the most weird decoders I have ever seen - MS MFT HEVC decoder of Win 10.

After a few tests and a few thoughts about this decoder, here is the situation.

MS MFT HEVC decoder is not a DXVA2 decoder.

It's a D3D11 video accelerated decoder only, which means a few things.

D3D11 video acceleration is something that some developers are claiming that you could use in Win 7 with Platform Update installed and create devices with feature level 9_3 in order to work with it, but for example MediaSDK from Intel couldn’t work even in that way because it needs Direct3D 11.1 which is available in Win 8 or above.

So, according to my findings, D3D11 video acceleration is mainly a Win 8 or above feature, although it could work with Win 7 + Platform Update.

Regarding GPU companies and their drivers, it seems that for Intel for example they already have done their job.

MPEG2_VLD,
H264_VLD_NoFGT,
VC1_VLD2000 and
HEVC_VLD_Main

are all DXVA2/D3D11 capable according to DXVA Checker.

So the device decoders are ready to support both modes of HW decode acceleration – DXVA2 and “DXVA11”

Also DXVA11 is similar to DXVA2, the only thing different is the interface above.
Maybe it’s a little trickier too, in order to work compared to DXVA2.

What all these mean ?

It's impossible to connect to EVR with a DXVA11 decoder, like the MS MFT HEVC decoder, so the DXVA Checker could never become red and could never use that decoder to HW accelerate HEVC content because it uses EVR renderer.

So, DXVA Checker will always fall back to SW using MS MFT HEVC decoder in "Playback mode" or "Playback Benchmark" mode as it uses EVR.

BUT using Decode Benchmark mode I managed to HW accelerate HEVC content (from 1080p up to 2160p) in Hybrid mode using GPU ~100% and my Intel Core i7-4790 system using Win 10 x64 and HD 4600 - drivers 4256 (!)

So, it seems that MS MFT HEVC has already enabled HW HEVC acceleration but with two major problems:

a) It's a MediaFoundation only decoder

b) It's a DXVA11 only decoder.

That combination changes the MS MFT HEVC decoder HW acceleration capability, from useful to useless because the two MediaFoundation players that I know - DXVA Checker and WMP - both use EVR renderer so they can't decode and display HEVC content using DXVA11-only decoders, like MS MFT HEVC decoder (!!)

MS MFT HEVC has enabled HW DXVA acceleration that no one can use it.
Only SW fall back for that decoder.

One last thing...

It seems that a system with a Radeon 7750 card (GCN 1.0) and Catalyst 15.7.1 (WDDM 2.0) driver can't use MS MFT HEVC decoder, not even in SW, using Win 10.

It doesn't enumerate in DXVA Checker and it's absent in WMP.

So, my initial thought about WDDM 2.0 drivers seems to be wrong.

Next thing that I thought and asked him if he has an AVX2 capable CPU.

I couldn't think of anything else...