Evaluation of HEVC decoders (SW, Hybrid and HW)

[NikosD]

I didn't bring the conversation regarding new manufacturing process to mock Intel being second to Samsung and TSMC.

The inability to go to 10nm and the "nm war" are irrelevant to my discussion.

I mentioned the fact that Intel needs a new process to bring a new architecture, because it has stuck to its latest Skylake's architecture since 2015.

So, the problem of manufacturing process is huge for Intel not because it could loose the "nm war" but because it needs a new process to bring a new architecture, like all CPU companies actually, but with one little difference.

Intel has its own fabs and can't give their CPUs to GloFo, Samsung, TSMC etc.

If they can't fix the broken 10nm process they can't deliver a new CPU architecture. It's as simple as that!

[el Filou]

I mentioned the fact that Intel needs a new process to bring a new architecture, because it has stuck to its latest Skylake's architecture since 2015.

If they can't fix the broken 10nm process they can't deliver a new CPU architecture. It's as simple as that!
Why? Can't there be other reasons for the fact they used the same architecture for 3 years? Like, slowing down in development?
Do you know secret stuff about their next architecture that says they absolutely need a newer process to introduce it?

[NikosD]

The questions you asked me are like:

"Why 1+1 equals 2 ? "

[NikosD]

According to techpowerup.com VEGA supports these:

The HDMI port is version 2.0, and DisplayPort has been updated to 1.4 HBR3, MST and HDR.

This enables support for 4K @ 120 Hz, 5K @ 60 Hz, or 8K @ 60 Hz.

Supported HDR configurations are 4K60, 4K120, and 5K60, whereas Polaris supported only 4K60 HDR.

GPU-accelerated encoding is now capable of doing HEVC/H.264 at up to 1080p240, 1440p120 and 2160p60.

Hardware-based decode works up to 4K60 for H.264, H.265 and VP9.

[NikosD]

We have to wait for Navi or maybe a VEGA refresh for mainstream, like VEGA 11, could probably have VP9 hardware decoding inside.

AMD is a little (?) slow adopting non mainstream formats (actually the last one of the big three)

[gagmani]

I have just joined this forum to thank edwdevel for detailed review of playback capabilities of gt 1030. I bought it instead of 1050 and I am happy with my purchase. 1050/1050ti ti is very expensive here. And I am not into gaming. Plays even 8k smoothly with W10 Media player. But so far I am not able to use Nvenc or Cuda successfully in Mediacoder,Staxrip and any video converter. I do not know if it is due to hardware limitation or driver problem.

[NikosD]

But so far I am not able to use Nvenc or Cuda successfully in Mediacoder,Staxrip and any video converter.

I do not know if it is due to hardware limitation or driver problem.

What is your OS and drivers ?

[el Filou]

I am not able to use Nvenc or Cuda successfully in Mediacoder,Staxrip and any video converter. I do not know if it is due to hardware limitation or driver problem.
NVIDIA lists the 1030 as not supporting GameStream, which needs NVENC: https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-1030/specifications
It looks like the 1030 doesn't have NVENC, either in hardware or they disabled it through the drivers/BIOS.
The 1030 is absent from this page too: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-gpus even though they just may have forgotten to update it.
If you run GPU-Z, is the CUDA box in the Computing section checked?

[peca89]

I've tested 4K Netflix streaming on GT1030 and it does not work, as expected. Test setup:

Hardware: MSI GeForce GT 1030-2GH-OC
OS: Windows 10 Pro, Creators Update, version 1703, build 15063.540
Drivers: 384.94 WHQL and 385.28 WHQL
TV: Sony 850C, directly connected to HDMI, nVidia Control Panel shows that HDCP is enabled
App: Latest Netflix app from Microsoft Store
Output mode: 3840x2160@60Hz, RGB, 8bpp

Can anybody with 1050 and better confirm that it works without Insider Preview version of Windows and "special" driver?

[el Filou]

This thread by someone who got it to work on a Windows 10 Public Release build and driver 384.76 shows it's still flaky: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/6kjbra/nvidia_driver_38476_enables_netflix_4k_without
AFAIK NVIDIA still hasn't updated their Knowledge Base to mark that feature as generally available, so no guarantee yet that it works with public W10 builds and/or public release drivers.

Maybe try the specific driver v384.76 and make sure to follow all the guidelines in that thread?

Oh, and btw: from those screenshots, Netflix uses ~450 MB buffer at 4K, which is massive (= 220 seconds, YouTube only uses ~20-25 secs), and it wouldn't surprise me if the Microsoft DRM forced all the buffer to be kept in VRAM, which could explain the VRAM requirements.

[NikosD]

If someone buys a VEGA 56/64 card, please put a DXVA Checker screenshot here.

Or even if someone finds one posted anywhere on the Net.

[gagmani]

What is your OS and drivers ?

Windows 10 x64 (15063.540), Nvidia drivers 385.28
CPU - Pentium G3220
I saw in some Linux forums that nvenc works in Ubuntu. If it is indeed so, then nvidia disabled it in drivers. Otherwise the hardware is simply not there like previous GT cards. I will regret my decision to not buy a 1050 ti if hardware is absent. At least I have Ubuntu to try, but I don't know how to test nvenc in Linux.

[gagmani]

The 1030 is absent from this page too: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-gpus even though they just may have forgotten to update it.

I saw that developer page too. Maybe they are lazy. If they had posted about GP108 there, I would have made the right decision.
In GPU-Z it says CUDA 6.1 supported. Also the card runs at max at PCI -E 3.0 x4 only(written on the box).

http://imgur.com/a/sGY5w

[huhn]

make sure you are not using the driver from microsoft update.

i haven't done the math but 4x could be a huge problem.

[gagmani]

make sure you are not using the driver from microsoft update.

i haven't done the math but 4x could be a huge problem.

No, I downloaded from Nvidia website. I just did not pay attention while buying.

[NikosD]

Windows 10 x64 (15063.540), Nvidia drivers 385.28
CPU - Pentium G3220


All of my readings regarding that issue across the Net say that usually Nvidia disables HW encoding on GT cards (but not always)

I can't believe they just removed the NVENC HW from GP108 chip, it is easier for them to disable it, what a pitty.

There is a direct question asked in devtalk Nvidia forum, I don't know if it was you.

I'm not sure if Nvidia replies officially, but the same question asked before in devtalk Nvidia forum regarding GT 1030, the reply was that NVENC is not supported by that card.

[gagmani]

I think if we need nvenc we will have to to pay the green tax by buying a GTX. Also same applies for Netflix.

[aufkrawall]

Is here some mpv user with a GT 1030? I briefly had a chance to play around with a 1030 and noticed that hardware decoding wasn't working for VP9 10 bit, while it was working with LAV Filters.
Could someone please report this for mpv at Github with a logfile like described there?

Edit: GTX 1050 would likely show the same behavior.

[el Filou]

i haven't done the math but 4x could be a huge problem.For playback? Or encoding? For playback, with Copy-Back the bus load would be around 80% with 2160p60 10 bit, needs testing. Of course now you have the option to use D3D11VA Native, with which the PCI Express interface is barely loaded at all.

[rcksh]

I've given up waiting for relevant information to show up on somewhere on the internet so I decided to buy the GT 1030 and test it myself. Let me first answer my own questions:


Can it upscale 1080p60 and output 2160p60 using EVR? Yes, absolutely!
Can it do it using madVR? Did not test properly yet.
Can it decode AVC/HEVC/VP9 2160p60 SDR and output 2160p60 SDR? Yes, absolutely! No problem at all.
EVR or madVR? Tried only EVR so far
Can it decode AVC/HEVC/VP9 2160p60 HDR and just pass it through to a HDR compatible TV, therefore skipping resource-hungry 4K scaling and HDR<->SDR conversion? I managed to set up madVR to trigger HDR mode on TV. However, colors are completely wrong in fullscreen. I need more time figuring out how madVR works


Everything I threw to the card (up to 4K res), it managed to decode and render properly. I've tried most of the HEVC test clips mentioned in this topic and everything works fine except higher than 4K resolutions. VRAM usage at 4K 60fps 10bit HEVC output at 4K@60Hz is up to 1500MB when using EVR.

If anyone has an idea how to set up madVR to do basically nothing and just pass HDR through, please write here. I know that's not what madVR was made for, but it is probably only thing possible using low end video card. Also, I can do some more tests if someone is interested.

I'm using haswell IGP (intel hd 4400)
and one day it died.
I see your post, and I decided to buy gt 1030.
(my budget is on low, and I read we could use two different nvidia GPU in one system for additional multiple display )

yes thanks for your review.
I'm happy gt 1030 could play 4k60fps 5k60fps even hevc smoothly :thanks:.
also I could play popular pc games with decent quality.
but later I'm a little bit dissapointed after I Found if gt 1030 not support for NVDIA surround :(
and sadly gt 1030 can't play 8k 60fps video, it capped at 8k @ 24fps.
but it doesn't matter because for this time 4k60fps is enough for me :D

overall gt 1030 is not bad choice.

[huhn]

For playback? Or encoding? For playback, with Copy-Back the bus load would be around 80% with 2160p60 10 bit, needs testing. Of course now you have the option to use D3D11VA Native, with which the PCI Express interface is barely loaded at all.

for encoding you are usually uploading uncompressed 4:2:0 images which quite big compared to an encoded video stream.

d3d11 or DXVA native are not that different.

[NikosD]

I've given up waiting for relevant information to show up on somewhere on the internet so I decided to buy the GT 1030 and test it myself. Let me first answer my own questions:


Can it upscale 1080p60 and output 2160p60 using EVR? Yes, absolutely!
Can it do it using madVR? Did not test properly yet.
Can it decode AVC/HEVC/VP9 2160p60 SDR and output 2160p60 SDR? Yes, absolutely! No problem at all.
EVR or madVR? Tried only EVR so far
Can it decode AVC/HEVC/VP9 2160p60 HDR and just pass it through to a HDR compatible TV, therefore skipping resource-hungry 4K scaling and HDR<->SDR conversion? I managed to set up madVR to trigger HDR mode on TV. However, colors are completely wrong in fullscreen. I need more time figuring out how madVR works


Everything I threw to the card (up to 4K res), it managed to decode and render properly. I've tried most of the HEVC test clips mentioned in this topic and everything works fine except higher than 4K resolutions. VRAM usage at 4K 60fps 10bit HEVC output at 4K@60Hz is up to 1500MB when using EVR.

If anyone has an idea how to set up madVR to do basically nothing and just pass HDR through, please write here. I know that's not what madVR was made for, but it is probably only thing possible using low end video card. Also, I can do some more tests if someone is interested.

Could you try DXVA native mode (since copy-back is choppy and memory hungry) using EVR-CP of MPC-HC or similar video player instead of plain EVR ?

Because EVR-CP can use external subtitles and it's a little heavier than plain EVR.

[tony359]

Hi there,

I've landed here looking for info on a GTX1030.

I am putting together a new HTPC with a Ryzen 3. My display setup is currently just 720p but planning to upgrade to 1080p soon. 4K is not on my roadmap yet.
I am using MPC-HC with MadVR and 3DLUT calibration. I am looking for a GPU capable of dealing with some 'must have' MadVR features - not sure what to be honest as my current setup cannot handle anything but the basic settings.

I could go with a 1050 but the only passive model I found may be too tall for my case. The 1030 is also much cheaper!

Most of the comments on this thread are for 4K and HDR. Any thoughts on regular 1080p content with madVR and some good filters enabled?
Thanks!

[peca89]

Could you try DXVA native mode (since copy-back is choppy and memory hungry) using EVR-CP of MPC-HC or similar video player instead of plain EVR ?

Because EVR-CP can use external subtitles and it's a little heavier than plain EVR.

My bad! Whenever I said EVR before, I actually meant EVR-CP.

I tried native mode, but only with madVR and only with 4K HDR content in which case the colors are all messed up. In madVR thread I've read that that only happens with 10bit content, so I have to do some additional testing to be sure.


Most of the comments on this thread are for 4K and HDR. Any thoughts on regular 1080p content with madVR and some good filters enabled?
Thanks!

Yes, I've focused on 4K HDR. I've tried 1080p with some scalers other than bilinear or DXVA2, but render times were to high even for 24p. I'm currently not sure if high render times are caused by 7-year-old low-power CPU (Athlon 240e). I'm experiencing high CPU usage whenever I use madVR. Also, render times are about 10 times higher when I use D3D11 comparing to D3D9, although it should be the other way round...I need more time for investigation...

[tony359]

Thank you - that's bad news then. If you have a moment, what is the CPU/GPU load when you run 1080p content with all default settings on MadVR?

[huhn]

this thread is about hardware decoder speed not madVR filter performance.

ask in the madVR thread or what i recommend you create a new thread for your question.

because i'm writing right now i can give you a a little bit of help but i will not answer more question of this type in this thread.

a 1030 is ok for 1080p output but the very low ram speed could be a problem not sure 48 GB/s is really low.
24 hz ngu low/mid or super xbr /should work.
because i don't know what you understand as a "must have feature" or a "good scaler" i can't be more precise.

you may run into a huge problem with a 3d LUT:
http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=462
my 960 show problem with it and it has much faster Vram.

Also, render times are about 10 times higher when I use D3D11 comparing to D3D9, although it should be the other way round...I need more time for investigation...
are you talking about hardware decoding or madVR presenation?

madVR d3d11 is not known to be faster but know to use more Vram it can output 10 bit so that's that.

as i may said before UHD playback at UHD is possible with 2Gb but you are limiting your self and you can run into problems anytime.
Could you try DXVA native mode (since copy-back is choppy and memory hungry) using EVR-CP of MPC-HC or similar video player instead of plain EVR ?
so copy-back is choppy? please back this up with something.

a modern system has no problem with copyback what so ever if real playback is what you are aim for.

[tony359]

thank huhn, I'll open a new thread.

[NikosD]

so copy-back is choppy? please back this up with something.

a modern system has no problem with copyback what so ever if real playback is what you are aim for.

Here you are...

Since madVR requires copy-back (thanks huhn) it's no surprise that 4K 60fps does not work.

Even SDR 4K 60fps using EVR does not work if copy-back is used (memory gets maxed out).

[huhn]

and it is hard to see that you point to a single case pages back.

[aufkrawall]

Copyback can have a significant performance penalty:
https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1815449&postcount=22110

Btw: The Windows 10 video app seems to have by far the lowest VRAM consumption and it doesn't seem to show banding anywhere.

[huhn]

you should test this with real measurement.

but the copyback operation is of cause not free.

copyback has clearly no real effects on the rendertimes of madVR at elast with PCIe 3.0.

BTW. in my short tests d3d11 decode uses more Vram than DXVA native and copyback.

so it is to early to make a clear statement.

[aufkrawall]

you should test this with real measurement.

Do you mean VRAM consumption or banding?
As for banding: I watched several 10 bit SDR videos and couldn't spot any banding which wasn't there with madVR/mpv as well.


copyback has clearly no real effects on the rendertimes of madVR at elast with PCIe 3.0.

That's probably because you aren't close to the limit of your GPU.


BTW. in my short tests d3d11 decode uses more Vram than DXVA native and copyback.

With 4k HEVC 10 bit, DXVA2 copyback consumes more than D3D11VA native, but with VP9 8 bit, it seems the opposite applies.


so it is to early to make a clear statement.
Not regarding GPU load and power consumption. ;)

[huhn]

i mean power measurement.

and what should i say i have a meter and well it's about the same with copyback or native.

[aufkrawall]

I've connected a wattmeter. It shows exactly the same like MSI Afterburner, even the aggressive jumping.
With DXVA2 copyback, I have spikes to 150W, while with D3D11VA native, they are hardly above 115W.
With all the jumping, the average is a bit hard to approximate, but it's very much like:
D3D11VA native: ~90W
DXVA2 copyback: ~120W

Edit: Ok, Windows 10 video app doesn't have issues with banding. However, it's messing up colors in general and thus should be considered as garbage :D :
madVR:
https://abload.de/thumb/madvr1fseo.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=madvr1fseo.png)

Win 10 video app:
https://abload.de/thumb/win10videoapp71sw5.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=win10videoapp71sw5.png)
(slightly different frames because video can't be paused without overlay)

[huhn]

well your wettmeter isn't lying but if you need ~30 watt to do a copyback how is a 1030 even able to do it at all?

well it is not that easy but you know what i mean.

[aufkrawall]

I was using 4k downscaled to WQHD, HDR -> SDR, deband, Jinc AR chroma + bicubic AR LL luma and "scale chroma seperately". It seems to be some kind of worst case for the difference between copyback and native.

[huhn]

even with everything at bilinear the copyback cost the same it'S a fixed cost.

so the only difference is that it pushes the GPU in a higher powerstate?

[aufkrawall]

Why do you think copyback should have the same cost?
Lots of data need to be copied from GPU to RAM and back, before the actual computation for renderer stuff begins.
Copying huge amounts of data -> eats energy and adds lantencies. This can't be free.

[huhn]

but it can be done with a iGPU/entry level GPU and no matter what else you use it cost the same.
edit:there are buffers in use so latency is not an issue.

[aufkrawall]

edit:there are buffers in use so latency is not an issue.
Latencies can also occupy parts of the GPU and prevent it from being efficiently utilized. Think this more from a physical side, not from "frame is done and next" software perspective.
Reported GPU load is higher with copyback, and it even switches to higher clocks at the same time compared to native, which is a clear sign for GPU not being utilized efficiently with copyback.

[huhn]

with a 1060 i can't really measure a difference what so ever.

[aufkrawall]

I assume you were not using the same configuration as me?

To "ultimately" prove it:
I set madVR up to hit ~90% GPU usage, which usually is the highest value which is possible without drops.
D3D11VA: no drops
DXVA2 native: no drops
DXVA2 copyback: drops

-> copyback steals performance from madVR.

[huhn]

sorry i can't create such a close case where this is happening.
i have nearly 100 % the same power consumption and GPU load with or without copyback.

and for fair comparison we should either compare dxva native with dxva copyback or d3d11 with d3d11 copyback.

[aufkrawall]

D3D11VA copyback drops frames as well.
The problem likely is the copyback on the same GPU, I wouldn't expect it to drop frames when using a different GPU for decoding than which is used for rendering. However, I can't test this since my Skylake IGP is too slow for HEVC 10 bit decoding.

Or I'd have to create a new testcase for 4k 60fps H.264. Can do that.

Edit: Using IGP via D3D11VA copyback shows similar behavior:
Software decoding: no drops
D3D11 VA native: no drops
DXVA2 native: drops
D3D11VA GTX 1070 copyback: drops
D3D11VA Skylake IGP copyback: drops
QuickSync: no drops

[nussman]

I was using 4k downscaled to WQHD, HDR -> SDR, deband, Jinc AR chroma + bicubic AR LL luma and "scale chroma seperately". It seems to be some kind of worst case for the difference between copyback and native.
30W for copyback? Come on ...
Thats not some kind of worst case, you measurement is just wrong ...

[aufkrawall]

Wattmeter and software tools show the same consumption, copyback prevents using higher quality settings.
Good reasons to assume the numbers are accurate. What do you have to back up your statement? It seems nothing.

[huhn]

my wattmeter shows ~192 for d3d11 native and ~192 for d3d11 copyback.

at least i know now that my PSU is not efficient anymore...

[aufkrawall]

Inefficient PSUs can mask huge power drawing differences. ~192W really is very bad, I got a OC 1070 which doesn't run with very low voltages.
It's no miracle that I got this huge difference between copyback and native in power drawing, since, as I already stated, copyback increases both usage and clock (and thus also voltage).

[huhn]

i have 80 watts in idle that's a lot on that system.

well it's a good efficient PSU at the time i got it and no it can't hide power draw differences.
if something needs more power it will show it it can not simply use more power and show the same number.

for me copyback doesn't increase the clock and it doesn't increase GPU usages.

well of cause it does but it is so small i can't see the difference in the graph.

[aufkrawall]

And why would it increase it for me and not for you?

[pirlouy]

at least i know now that my PSU is not efficient anymore...
I wasn't aware of PSU being less efficient with time. Are you sure about this ? FWIW, my first wattmeter was wrong.

[huhn]

And why would it increase it for me and not for you?

good question maybe power settings or PCIe speed...

I wasn't aware of PSU being less efficient with time. Are you sure about this ? FWIW, my first wattmeter was wrong.

capacitor age there is no question so the efficiency curve changes too. no one really cares about this topic and it takes a long time/heat to kill a good capacitor. this PSU in question is 5+ years old. so with a new PSU i can get an guess how much it is in this single case.

i have currently ~80 watt idle and that has to come from somewhere.

if your wattmeter isn't broken than the number is correct +-5% which doesn't matter because we want to see a difference and that will work totally fine.

[aufkrawall]

good question maybe power settings or PCIe speed...

I suspect you are simply just not testing with demanding 4k files.
I have have the same rendertimes with native vs. copyback for 1080p 30fps video, but not 4k 60fps.
Not very surprising, since the overhead for copyback likely increases with amount of data.

Oh, and the PSU definitely can mask differences in power draw.

[huhn]

no i'm testing with UHD.

[aufkrawall]

Native:
https://abload.de/thumb/nativehksw6.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=nativehksw6.png)

Copyback:
https://abload.de/thumb/copybackj2spk.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=copybackj2spk.png)

And of course PCIe isn't a problem. Got a 6700k with fast RAM and games run fine.

[huhn]

sandybridge are common and the PCIe 2.0 is totally fine for games.

in this case copyback "wins" for some reasons higher GPU usages but lower powerstate. if i would run it for a longer time native would most likely look the same:
d3d11 native: https://abload.de/img/d3d11nativehyuu3.png


d3d11 copyback: https://abload.de/img/d3d11copyback56uyr.png

the only clear difference is the bus utilization.

here another one: https://abload.de/img/d3d11native2qkkfd.png

the part with the bus interface load is copyback you can see again that for what ever reason voltages is lower with copyback but GPU load is higher with this current set up. it'S very hard to get good number with pascal GPU they are changing the voltage clock.
as you can see the card is capping because of power usages with both native and copyback (green marker). just changing some settings in madVR and it will look totally different again...

[aufkrawall]

Could you test average values for at least ~30s period?

Native:
https://abload.de/thumb/nativeers1e.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=nativeers1e.png)

Copyback:
https://abload.de/thumb/copyback60s3t.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=copyback60s3t.png)

Edit: Stuff like browser etc. should be closed.

[huhn]

i first need to know why your bus load is so different.
and i will try a different none HDR UHD file.
and i may use a different PC too.

500 mhz and 0.25 volt difference...

edit: my other PC with a 960 4% bus load with UHD 8 bit and 6% with UHD 10 bit. i don't have time for more right now.

[huhn]

another day and another bunch of totally different numbers.

i have BUS load with native this time and and up 18 % with copyback Vram goes totally crazy and what not.

but most important the TDP it is relative constant.
960 2 gb UHD 10 bit, random madVR settings to get the highest possible rendertimes without drops.

copyback: https://abload.de/img/d3d11copybackvmj8k.png
don't ask me how i manged to take this screen without video engine load...

native: https://abload.de/img/d3d11nativeipkpt.png
the random 0% usages(error readings or what ever) and the start let this look better than it is.

on the other PC Vram usages was about the same in both mode it is clearly higher with copyback on this system.

i will edit in power consumption later and that's it clocks are more constant on this GPU so maybe i can see 1 or 2 watt more power drain with copyback.

edit:
again a4-5 year old PSU and again gold rated PSU
idle: 57.3 watt
native: ~150 watt highest spike i saw 171 lowest 140
copyback: ~150 watt highest spike i saw 157 lowest 141

[aufkrawall]

Well, I'm out of clues why it would be different. I just checked my PCIe bandwidth with a cuda tool and it seems to be totally normal.

[pirlouy]

FWIW, I've tested again my power consumption. My PSU is 5 years old, and there are no differences despite years.
My result is with classic AVC @4.1 and not HEVC (sorry)

Idle: 67 W
Software: 90-95 W
D3D9 DXVA Native: 85 W
D3D9 DXVA Copy Back: 80 W

I have GPU-Z screenshots if needed, but I know this thread is dangerous so I prefer to avoid problems.

[el Filou]

i first need to know why your bus load is so different.
I also get a 15% bus load with 2160p60 10 bit on copyback (PCIe 2.0 x16), but speed is system limited so it should be higher if it was smooth, something like 20-25.

[el Filou]

Just noticed Chrome has now blacklisted VP9 decode acceleration for all Windows versions before Windows 10 1703 (was 1607 before) due to crashes when seeking. :rolleyes:
Well I guess it's finally time to update to 1703 before 1709 comes out...

[CruNcher]

Interesting im testing GP104 myself now and i currently measuring a difference of 20W on Nvidias Video Decoder depending of the Bitstream Complexity 2160P@60 FPS HEVC

Nvidias Dynamic Boost 3.0 clocks between 60-80W (TSP) depending on the tested bitstream complexity.

a delta of 20W more for certain complexity level (TSP).

Also overall the clock adjustment isn't really fast i rememberd times the clock adjustments reacted faster on Maxwell overall Nvidia seems to have highered the reaction latency for Video complexity changes.

You can see this very well when Seeking it takes a lot of time for the Clocks to lower again, they jump up on the Seeek to full and then it takes around 1-2 minutes on a higher power consumption state before they lower again and slowly stabilize to the bitstream complexity and smaller changes again, in this "turn around" time period Nvidias Engine can draw those 20W more pretty inefficiently.

I tested Nvidias Optimal Power,Adaptiv and Maximum Power states.

they show no real difference in these reaction time but clocking behavior differences very well.

Not sure if this is maybe only a visible issue with this specific Card Design im testing here and Bios and overall driver or upper 3rd Party Software Level i keep an eye on it doing some tests with Nvidias API directly (newer drivers im currently testing with 375.96 pre SDK 8) and see if it is the same overall latency behavior.

It feels really slow currently in Adapting and stabilizing especialy in seek situations from this test (to much overhead power way to long).


Must be even more catastrophic with the Browser HTML5 overhead depending on the OS.

LG/ATEME Encoder Test Production

Stabilized Power Draw (Adaptiv)

http://i1.sendpic.org/i/mB/mB4W6aJojnEyr616Ipx0zjAKZPm.png

Turn around Power Draw (Adaptiv) Seek

http://i1.sendpic.org/i/tZ/tZVLURSgXZPs9TUl00BjOY8iXBf.png

You can also see how the Engine tries to even trigger a Higher Power Draw but luckily it runs into it's overall Voltage Limit.

[aufkrawall]

Boost clock after seekigns seems to occur only with bilinear scaling. Use Windows 10 video app for such tests or wait until madVR supports D3D11VA scaling.

[mariush]

good question maybe power settings or PCIe speed...



capacitor age there is no question so the efficiency curve changes too. no one really cares about this topic and it takes a long time/heat to kill a good capacitor. this PSU in question is 5+ years old. so with a new PSU i can get an guess how much it is in this single case.

i have currently ~80 watt idle and that has to come from somewhere.

if your wattmeter isn't broken than the number is correct +-5% which doesn't matter because we want to see a difference and that will work totally fine.

Capacitor aging would NOT affect the efficiency of the power supply in any significant way. It would just make the voltages less "stable", they'll have higher ripple .. for example instead of 12v +/- 50mV you may have 12v +/- 100-200 mV

In theory that could affect the efficiency of the VRM on the graphics card (the DC-DC converter that takes 12v and produces 1v..1.4v) and motherboard (for cpu and memory) but the variation would be extremely small, maybe less than 0.1%

-

Video cards are pretty smart when it comes to saving power. If there's little load, they'll switch from pci-e x16 to x8 or x4 and even switch from pci-e 3.0 to pci-e 2.0 to save maybe 1-2w of power, and in some cases they may even fall back to pci-e v1.1

Use some tool like GPU-Z to see in which modes the card works , when you're using various settings. It may just turn out that when you're using some setting, the card keeps the DDR5 memory at highest frequency or that the pci-e slot runs at full x16 v3.0 using a bunch more watts.

[huhn]

my power consumption is pretty stable between native and copyback aufkrawall has a huge difference.

here is a german test for aging power supplys.
https://www.computerbase.de/2013-11/alte-netzteile-test/4/#diagramm-effizienz-bei-230-volt-eingangsspannung

as you can easily see there can be a huge difference in low load efficiency.
don't put to much through into that could be a faulty power supply at my side i just take a different PC to check it.

[aufkrawall]

I got a Corsair AX860 Platinum power supply. However, I don't think that the PSU can fully eliminate the differences shown by the card's sensors.

[el Filou]

Is the NVIDIA API for reading power to be trusted when the card is in power save?
My 1050 Ti never shows anything lower than "47,6% TDP" even when clocks, loads, voltages and bus speed are all at the lowest possible values, which I find highly improbable (that would be 36W at idle :confused:).
When there is a small load on the GPU using madVR, the reported power barely goes up to 50-52% TDP, so the idle value can't be right and it's making me doubt the reporting.

[huhn]

you are not using high performance or stuff like this?

my 1060 and 960 fall below 10% TDP all the time.

[el Filou]

I tested with both Adaptive and Optimal Power, and rebooted after each setting change just to be sure, but it doesn't change the reading.
GPU 139 MHz 0.675V 0% load, memory 202 MHz 4% controller load, bus PCIe v1.1 0% load; and it still says 47,6% TDP.
If you correctly see 10% on yours then I think something must be wrong on my card either with the sensor or the calibration in the BIOS or something. I'll report this to Palit just in case.
Thanks for the information!

[huhn]

i would say it is GPU-z in this case.

GPU 139 MHz 0.675V 0% load, memory 202
nothing more i need to know that your card knows how to save power.

[CruNcher]

Boost clock after seekigns seems to occur only with bilinear scaling. Use Windows 10 video app for such tests or wait until madVR supports D3D11VA scaling.

The boost jump itself isn't a real problem the time it needs to recover from it is the overall culprit (the time it lasts in the higher p-state before lowering again, switch latency).

Maybe it's just the driver gonna check this now was very happy overall in all tests with this driver on Maxwell though but pre SDK 8 is rather suboptimal now with Paxwell overall.

The PSU

http://www.game-debate.com/psu/index.php?ps_id=1623&psu=be%20quiet!%20Dark%20Power%20Pro%20P6%20530W

And before anyone asks yes it works stable ;)


Also interesting some visible pattern for the clocks behavior with this bitstream test.

http://leakimg.com/qwW0u53/image.png

The Fan stuff is a known problem with the cards Design semi passive Hysterese config, though not really optimal in this case it stresses the fans to much.

Overall the test shows a lot of inefficiencies for the complexity it is overall way to high clocking, even with all the OSD rendering 80W (TSP) is to much 60W (TSP) should be pretty enough for everything on Screen.

Also the sudden GPU Usage spikes could be Keyframe related, which is interesting.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-graphics-cards,4725-10.html

Either the Driver was still suboptimal for Paxwell (375.95) or something else in the Cards overall configuration is suboptimal.

I try the 2nd Bios Results again and see how those react.

Also trying full DXVA Mode could be that the overall slightly higher stress is not well tuned in Nvidias Adaptiv Boost metrics, so it just overreacts here expecting the worst brakedowns to come (more Interactive Game tuned) ;)

The coil whine of the card is relatively sane i would have expected much worse for the -50 compared to MSIs Design though if you think about those some cents more it would have cost to get the overall Design even quieter it still pains a lot why such decisions are being taken ;)

Maybe i gonna rebuild the card with a friend of mine and show those what can be done for cheap and send it to Tomshardware Germany for another Exclusive Review, some seem to dumb to get 99% Efficient cheaper PSU Designs done and also to dumb to get quieter relatively cheaper Graphiccard Designs done as well. ;)

[CruNcher]

Switch Position 1

Palits OC Bios (I still try to understand the higher purpose of this Bios configuration)

86.04.3B.00.34
1645/1785
1251 mem


Switch Position 2

Palits Default Bios (A not so bad configured overall Bios)

86.04.3B.00.31
1607/1734
1251 mem

The OC Bios is a total disaster i really dont get the purpose of it, it's a total Stability Failure on the Render output side
It is what it is sher bruteforcing on the Cost of overall Stability only to be ahead within Benchmarks and shit Synthetic tests.

The Hysterese is also a pure catastrophe it is inside of both Bios the same nothing was fixed there no official update available on their support side either at 52°C it sets in.
In this state currently i don't want to compare it against any Custom RX Vega 56 even if the non OC Bios is overall pretty sane and has way fewer fluctuations and a more sane idle setup on top and behaves much nicer in a lot of different situations.

http://leakimg.com/b6c2hov/image.png

http://i1.sendpic.org/i/7q/7qnkUjm5sRyKDHCL8LlLF3VGIKH.png

Funnily the 2nd Bios seems to be also used on the Jetstream (sister card)

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/190761/190761

Hmm officially that Bios doesn't exist

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/184340/palit-gtx1080-8192-160601-3

Unverified but this is the Bios Palit has done after it most probably the previous had even bigger hysterese issues and was the release one so when igor found them in the GameRock Premium and they fixed them igor most probably didn't checked every case this could happen but only Gaming related Loads.

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/186892/186892

Hmm

Looks like worth a try aside of the stable bios on switch position 2 putting it on switch position 1 and testing it

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/194017/194017

Bios is in the same TDP Range as the OC Bios of the GameRock (not as new as the super jetstream though) looks promising as a test candidate

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/186322/gainward-gtx1080-8192-160830-2

[Someone]

If You Want 8K 60 Fps Wait Nvidia Volta or AMD Navi
Don't know if it was posted already, but the Win10 1703 App "Movies & TV" CAN play YouTube 8k VP9 60fps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEpvgVJN33w&index=3&list=PLg1oOJ486INkrllAl_jQ4u7cleHHSucXp) downloaded files very fine with a Nvidia Pascal GC (GTX 1070). BUT it doesn't work in any current chromium based Browser, BUT in Edge with normal playback speed (VPU = ~80%, or playback speed 1.25 = 100%).
DXVA Checker Playback Benchmark = max. fps with this file = ~72fps. VPU = 99%.

The App also plays UltraHD Bluray HDR 10 bit (http://abload.de/image.php?img=2017-09-18-00-51-09ufs78.png) files "correct".
(Sorry for the bad screenshot. There's something wrong with screenshots, since my Win 10 Upgrade, with DSR@1440p.)

[aufkrawall]

The win 10 Video App can't show 10 bit gradients without banding, it distorts colors in general and it doesn't compress highlights for HDR video, which will look like a North Korean nuke test for bright scenes (at least with SDR output, dunno if it supports HDR output). ;)

[el Filou]

My 1050 Ti barely reaches 65 fps in DXVA Checker with 8K VP9 (playback or decode), this is not really usable in practice for 60 fps videos. It would be fine with 24p though.

Interesting: DXVA Checker can decode that video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLprVF6d7Ug in 8K in hardware with LAV in DXVA2 Native mode but in MPC-HC, LAV won't use hardware decoding except with CUVID.
Using latest nightly I tested D3D11 Native + madVR, DXVA2N + madVR, DXVA2N + EVR, and it always falls back to avcodec even though in DXVA Checker it works. :confused: (nevcairiel?)

Anyway, 8K is useless for consumer use now and will be for quite a long time.

[loekf]

Stupid question perhaps, maybe it's somewhere hidden in the 107 pages of this thread.

Yesterday Apple released High Sierra (macOS 10.13). One of the features is HEVC decode backed into the OS. Until 10.12 (Sierra) I couldn't play a 4K HEVC file without severe frame drops in e.g. VLC.

After the update, VLC mostly works and specially IINA is working great. I didn't try Quicktime, because I was too lazy to remux my MKVs into a MP4 container + convert DTS-HD tracks to AAC.

My iMac is a Late 2014 Haswell based 5K one. AFAIK, Haswell can only do "hybrid" decode, so some parts of the GPU assist in decoding (Intel Quicksync). Don't think there's anything done with the standard AMD GPU by Apple. But... only 8-bits HEVC according to:

https://communities.intel.com/thread/59216

The files I tried were all ~30 Mbps, main 10, 4K, 23.976 fps files.

Can Haswell do more than we think or is Apple doing something special ?

I didn't try the test files from this forum yet. I also still have to play with the new AppleTV 4K. An new beta of MrMC is pending approval with Apple. I'm curious what the A10X is capable of.

[huhn]

the first AMD GPU with a hardware HEVC decoder was polaris and i don't see a reason why a true i5 can't decode a HEVC 30 mbit video in software.

[aufkrawall]

Fiji "already" had native HEVC 8 bit decoding. But I agree that 8 bit shouldn't be a problem for the CPU and so neither for a hybrid decoder. Unlike 10 bit, which kills my Skylake IGP.

[NikosD]

The files I tried were all ~30 Mbps, main 10, 4K, 23.976 fps files.

Can Haswell do more than we think or is Apple doing something special ?

That could be weird, if your players uses GPU assisted acceleration for 10bit HEVC for 2+1 reasons:

1) Haswell using Windows drivers can only use GPU for 8 bit HEVC, IIRC

2) Even 8bit GPU assisted HEVC acceleration should be slow, very slow for 4K HEVC at 30Mbps

3) Even CPU decoding could be slow for Haswell i5 when decoding 10bit 4K HEVC, but it's the only case I could think of with some decent performance compared to GPU assisted and the only one offered for 10bit HEVC encoding using Haswell iGPU.

Try to monitor your CPU usage during 10bit HEVC 4K decoding.

Probably Apple has managed to use more optimized CPU HEVC codec than ffmpeg and LAV.

[NikosD]

Did Intel remove 8K support of all codecs for Coffee Lake ?

Also, removed VP9 10 bit ?

Someone with a Coffee Lake, just post a DXVA Checker screenshot please.

https://s1.postimg.org/4dvioem0v3/gen9_lp_video_decode.png

[P.J]

Is the NVIDIA API for reading power to be trusted when the card is in power save?
My 1050 Ti never shows anything lower than "47,6% TDP" even when clocks, loads, voltages and bus speed are all at the lowest possible values, which I find highly improbable (that would be 36W at idle :confused:).
When there is a small load on the GPU using madVR, the reported power barely goes up to 50-52% TDP, so the idle value can't be right and it's making me doubt the reporting.

I had the same problem too. Could you fix it?

[el Filou]

GPU-Z devs say they use NVIDIA's API, so I contacted Palit technical support by email - both Germany and Taiwan - but never received a response, not even an acknowledgment. :(

[huhn]

there is a simple thing i would here.

i would measure the powerconsumption at the power supply and see if it is let's say over 50 watts if not i would ignore it.
and i would compare the powers consumption between full GPU load and idle if the delta is bigger than 50 watt you should be fine.

[aufkrawall]

It shouldn't matter for decoding. ;)

[el Filou]

But it will probably matter for bugs. :p

i would measure the powerconsumption at the power supply and see if it is let's say over 50 watts if not i would ignore it.
and i would compare the powers consumption between full GPU load and idle if the delta is bigger than 50 watt you should be fine.I'm not worried about absolute power consumption really. It's just it would be nice to be able to compare the power consumption of the card with different graphics settings/drivers/power plans.

[huhn]

software is not accurate for that.
just to give you an idea.
voltages
GPU-Z 0.9620
HWmonitor 0.875

it's not a trust worthy source. now take different bios version of each brand and it get's totally out of hands.

i only see this useful for major differences like nvidia is using a really "high" powerstate for hardware decoding.

[pacuro]

Did Intel remove 8K support of all codecs for Coffee Lake ?

Also, removed VP9 10 bit ?

Someone with a Coffee Lake, just post a DXVA Checker screenshot please.

https://s1.postimg.org/4dvioem0v3/gen9_lp_video_decode.png

NikosD take a look at screenshot I have got from colleague. In Coffe Lake there are 8K decoders to 8/10bit, hevc/vp9:

http://static.frazpc.pl/board/2017/10/b89c3b5e23099b35.jpg

[P.J]

GPU-Z devs say they use NVIDIA's API, so I contacted Palit technical support by email - both Germany and Taiwan - but never received a response, not even an acknowledgment. :(

I had that problem with Asus, then it's Nvidia's fault.
Have you tried other apps except GPU-Z?

Edit: It seems TDP has been removed:

http://phota.me/mHHu.gif

[el Filou]

I had that problem with Asus, then it's Nvidia's fault.
Have you tried other apps except GPU-Z?

Edit: It seems TDP has been removedYes they all show the same value.
My v2.4.0 still has it. Maybe it's unchecked in your settings?

Anyway huhn is right and I've given up on trying to get any reliable value that way.

[NikosD]

NikosD take a look at screenshot I have got from colleague. In Coffe Lake there are 8K decoders to 8/10bit, hevc/vp9

Thanks, looks reasonable.

The iGPU of Coffee should be exactly the same like Kabylake's and it is.

[NikosD]

Well, if you don't believe in miracles, this is the time to reconsider it.

Microsoft managed to measure the Video Decoding performance of the AMD ASIC inside my RX 470 card, something that ATI/AMD never revealed in public!

Yes, it is true.

Using latest Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (possibly the least interesting name for an OS) and the new Task Manager, there is a new GPU monitor tool.

I did a lot of tests using an AMD RX 470 card and the latest beta Crimson Drivers 17.40 for Fall Update (WDDM 2.3) and the Video Decoding usage reported by GPU Monitor tool seems very accurate.

I tried H.264, H.265 8bit and H.265 10bit with various decoding difficulty in normal and benchmark mode (DXVA Checker) and the results were reasonable.

Next system will be my Core i3 Haswell and the MFX video decoding engine (QuickSync) which I'm pretty sure Microsoft managed to measure that too.

Very impressive, at least.

[aufkrawall]

Was that not possible before via GPU-Z?
Nvidia driver does report VPU usage to tools who want to read it out for ages.

[huhn]

like he said AMD doesn't do that. not a huge deal to be honest

[aufkrawall]

Does it also work without WDDM 2.3 driver? If not, it won't work on Intel.
And I fail to really say what would be impressive about it. It's one metrics of many, accessible or not by stupid proprietary drivers on Windows.

[NikosD]

It is very impressive because AMD has never exposed officially such info in their drivers.

Tools like GPU-Z and others need to just read a suitable parameter from Nvidia drivers to report that info.

But how Microsoft did that without using AMD drivers, meaning without access to the specific ASIC ?

[el Filou]

Maybe that's part of a list of standard utilization counters that WDDM 2.3 forces GPU drivers that adhere to it to report to the OS in a standard way?

[NikosD]

Does it also work without WDDM 2.3 driver? If not, it won't work on Intel.
And I fail to really say what would be impressive about it. It's one metrics of many, accessible or not by stupid proprietary drivers on Windows.

Maybe that's part of a list of standard utilization counters that WDDM 2.3 forces GPU drivers that adhere to it to report to the OS in a standard way?

Just tried my WDDM 2.0 Intel drivers for Haswell v.4624 and it works fine.

My HD 4400 has a lot faster H.264 hardware video decoding ASIC than RX 470, as we already know from the benchmarks and I can confirm that using GPU monitor of Fall Creators Update.

Intel has already released a new driver v4703 but with no difference.

So, it's not WDDM version but some other low-level routines that can achieve this accomplishment.

[nsnhd]

On my i5-4440/ HD4600 (v.4703), GPU monitor of Fall Creators Update only shows 3D chart, the rest of charts (video decoding, processing etc.) shows nothing.

[NikosD]

On my i5-4440/ HD4600 (v.4703), GPU monitor of Fall Creators Update only shows 3D chart, the rest of charts (video decoding, processing etc.) shows nothing.

Make sure you are using HW acceleration for compatible video formats.

I tried MPC-HC with latest nightly LAV and DXVA native using H.264 clips.

Next time, I'll try also MPEG2/VC-1/WMV3 and the hybrid H.265 video.

[aufkrawall]

The VPU of the GTX 1050/Ti or 1030 was not just able to decode VP9 10, it was also faster in general than of other Pascal GPUs, right?
YouTube 8k HFR VP9 8 bit almost is too much for the VPU of my 1070, it gets up to ~95% usage and the decoding queue reported by madVR sometimes gets lower by 1 frame (playback stable though).

It also reveals DXVA2 as slow crap: Contrary to D3D11 it gives me lots of dropped frames, even with EVR.
Not to speak of copyback modes, which are totally out of the game.

[el Filou]

I don't think it's faster, I also get just around 60 fps with my 1050 Ti on VP90 8K with DXVA native. It's good enough to play 8K 24/30p but not HFR smoothly.

[aufkrawall]

It can play HFR smoothly here.
Don't underestimate chroma scaling for 8k video, probably set it to bilinear (or even nearest with a slow GPU) or enable the "scale chroma separately" checkbox. It saves tons of performance when doing much downscaling.

[NikosD]

GPU Monitor tool of FCU is a great tool.

It works for my HD 4400 for all codecs supported in HW (MPEG2, VC-1, WMV3, H.264) and the interlaced ones (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)

It doesn't show any HW resource used when decoding H.265 and that proves for good that hybrid H.265 decoder of Haswell is a pure GPU based decoder (EU only)

[aufkrawall]

It also works with a Gen 8.5 Atom IGP while it has only a WDDM 2.0 driver.

[wanezhiling]

https://i.imgur.com/EIefn9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fRQVzXm.jpg
8th APU

[mrcorbo]

https://i.imgur.com/EIefn9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fRQVzXm.jpg
8th APU

Thanks for this. Finding it really annoying that no site I've seen seems to go even slightly out of their way to provide this information anymore.

[NikosD]

Thanks for this. Finding it really annoying that no site I've seen seems to go even slightly out of their way to provide this information anymore.

Desktop VEGA as we know, doesn't have fixed-function (pure hardware) VP9 decoder.

I think is the same for APUs using VEGA GPUs, so those figures for VP9 8bit/10bit have to be the decoding performance of hybrid VP9 decoder.

Unless APUs are using a 2nd edition of VEGA video decoding hardware.

[huhn]

the hardware decoder functionality of vega 56 and 64 is not a high priority. people that buy such a card don't do that for hardware decoder.
this totally changes with APUs these system not dedecated to pure gamer or GPGPU application adding hardware decoder to these iGPU makes a lot of sense and it is about time.

it would be disappointing if the VP9 decoder are hybrid

[NikosD]

Just to make things even more complicated, I found this official image:
https://s1.postimg.org/632gctw4bz/battery.png

Ryzen APUs double the efficiency of VP9 playback compared to a previous generation, but still that could be achieved by a transition from CPU to GPU (hybrid) decoding, not necessarily to fixed-function VP9 decoding.

If someone doesn't test it, especially under Fall Creators Update in order to see the Video Decoding Engine utilization, I can't be sure.

[darkrenata]

What would be the consensus of i7-8700k working for 4k 60fps HEVC 10bit? I've tried with mpc-hc LAV+madVR, but I was getting frame drops or stuttering with dxva copyback while using the display out from a 970 (with the copyback I have the iGPU decoding). Don't think I was using x64 so I might have some stuff I can change around to test and see if that's my issue, it looks like it decodes fine, but there is playback issues.

iGPU usage is like 60% max, so if it couldn't handle decoding it shouldn't it hit 100%?

[nevcairiel]

The memory bandwidth of copyback for 4k 10-bit 60fps might be putting quite a strain on the system.

[aufkrawall]

Also give D3D11VA of LAV Filters nightlies a try.

[darkrenata]

The memory bandwidth of copyback for 4k 10-bit 60fps might be putting quite a strain on the system.

Yeah it seems that way, playback with dxva2 native works flawlessly. Problem is that my motherboard displayport out to and hdmi AVR for my projector apparently doesn't do 4K ????? I think it's supposed work via LSPCon, but I'd have to do research to consider using that, so it seems the Intel HD 630 is pretty useless to me since I'll probably just buy a 1080Ti unless Nvidia announces something new soon.

Also give D3D11VA of LAV Filters nightlies a try.

Can you explain exactly what I'm looking for? I'll try to search, but do you think it would make any difference for dxva2 copyback decoding?

For those curious my results for decode benchmark on Jellyfish 400Mbps
are average 85fps with range [67-112].
Playback benchmark is average 84fps with range [68-110]

This is with dxva2 native.

[aufkrawall]

Can you explain exactly what I'm looking for? I'll try to search, but do you think it would make any difference for dxva2 copyback decoding?

Just install the latest nightly build and select D3D11 in the video decoder settings instead of DXVA2.
DXVA2 is slower on the GPU than D3D11VA, perhaps this is also true in your case when using copyback. Doesn't hurt trying.

[littleD]

I see no help for the time being. Decoding on intel in dxva CB or even dxv11va gives slowdown on higher fps, resolution, bitness. Dxva native always smooth.
Decoding benchmark is always much faster in dxvachecker than playback benchmark. Looking on scores in cba mode - if not bus or video memory quantity? limitation, all files would be playable as in native dxva.

Wonder if intel implemented lossless color compression, if not it would be handy here as nvidia and amd have it.

[aufkrawall]

That's what I was arguing with huhn a few pages ago: Copyback can put lots of additional load on the GPU or slows it down.
When I put the the GTX 1070 to the limit with high madVR settings, playback is still smooth with native decoding, but drops frames when using copyback.
Copying lots of data from the GPU into one direction or another should be avoided if possible, it's just ugly. DXVA2 might be slower than D3D11VA though, at least that's the case when using native decoding (I commented about 8k VP9 playback a few posts back).

[wanezhiling]

I never use any copyback mode cuz it's much slower and costs too much cpu/gpu stresses.

[littleD]

Is it measurable property? I mean, can we put some values of - when given system would be limited by internals for CB? Like video memory, bus speed, system ram speed etc.

I have somewhere on the disc test programs one in d3d one in opencl that measure speed cpu<>GPu, not sure if scores would be relevant.

[nevcairiel]

Memory bandwidth hasn't really increased much over the last generations, consumer CPUs are still dual channel and the iGPU still uses that same system memory. At the same time 4K 10-bit 60fps uses around 20 times the raw memory bandwidth that your typical 1080p24 content would use.
On the other hand, running copy-back from an NVIDIA card and uploading back to that same NVIDIA card is still quite fast, even with 4K 10-bit content. So one can only conclude that the Intel GPUs are just not very good at this.

[huhn]

it's not easy to measure i personally never noticed anything worthwhile using CP with any of my video cards.

native is disabling a lot of possibilities which should not be generally ignored.

[aufkrawall]

Just look at the GPU usage reported by tools, it's very noticeable here with GTX 1070 and not too expensive scaling/processing in madVR/mpv.

[huhn]

you know my reports it's meaningless on all my cards in the past 4 years.

[darkrenata]

Just install the latest nightly build and select D3D11 in the video decoder settings instead of DXVA2.
DXVA2 is slower on the GPU than D3D11VA, perhaps this is also true in your case when using copyback. Doesn't hurt trying.

I tried this. Happy to report that for the 4k 60FPS content I have it playbacks flawlessly on my 1080p monitor out of my 970 decoding on the i7-8700k iGPU. I'll try my 4K display next time I turn it on but this seems pretty good so far.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[gagmani]

1070 Ti does not have VP9 Profile 2 just like 1070 and 1080.

https://imgur.com/a/4b4c8

[Razoola]

1070 Ti does not have VP9 Profile 2 just like 1070 and 1080.

https://imgur.com/a/4b4c8

I was thinking of getting a 1070TI, what does the loss of VP9 profile 2 mean in real terms? Does any nvidia GFX card have it?

[huhn]

you can't decode VP9 profile which is used on youtube HDR.
1050 ti and slower 10xx cards and there are information that state the 1080 ti can do it too

[gagmani]

I was thinking of getting a 1070TI, what does the loss of VP9 profile 2 mean in real terms? Does any nvidia GFX card have it?

99% youtube vp9 videos would play fine. Only 10 bit(HDR) ones would fail. Netflix playback can be problematic on HDR content.

[el Filou]

99% youtube vp9 videos would play fine. Only 10 bit(HDR) ones would fail. Netflix playback can be problematic on HDR content.Netflix also supports HEVC so that's not a problem.
If Razoola has a powerful CPU maybe they could decode VP9 profile 2 in software?

[aufkrawall]

Bitrate of YT VP9 10 bit is lower than of 8 bit, so it might work with software decoding.

[Razoola]

I have an old i7 920 at 4Ghz and its not fast enough hence I'm looking for a new gfx card. Can the 950 do it? I understand this card has some HEVC and VP9 support but I'm not sure that includes 10bit.

[huhn]

as far as i remember the first card with support is the 1050 ti.

[sneaker_ger]

Yes, GTX 950 does HEVC 8 bit + 10 bit and VP9 8 bit but not VP9 10 bit.


Note: AFAIK it does not have the DRM features the Pascal series has. So don't expect 4K Netflix or Blu-ray to work through non-pirate/non-ripped means. I also don't know about HDR even if pirated. Power and RAM are also limited in case you want any advanced madvr features or similar.

[nevcairiel]

there are information that state the 1080 ti can do it too

I can confirm this, the 1080Ti indeed has VP9 10-bit support.

[aufkrawall]

Too bad your VP9 10 bit HW decoding patches haven't got mainlined yet in ffmpeg. :(

[nevcairiel]

Thats because they're not actually complete. LAV uses a bunch of its own HW functions, so it wasn't really required to add the extra stuff. But maybe I should.

[Razoola]

I can confirm this, the 1080Ti indeed has VP9 10-bit support.

I'm a little confused now. So the 1080TI has VP9 10 bit support but the 1080 and 1070TI does not? I somehow got the impression these used the same GPU so I though they would all have the same HW decoding spec.

[nevcairiel]

Indeed, the underlying chip variant is what matters, and only GP102 and GP107/108 seem to support it, since both are relatively new. So that is 1080Ti (and possibly the Titan Xp) based on GP102, and the 1050 Ti and below on GP107 or 108.
The 1070 Ti, while a "new" card, is based on the exact same chip as the 1080 and 1070.

[Razoola]

Thanks for the clarification.

[el Filou]

I'm not sure those VDPAU Feature Sets still provide valuable information, for example all Pascal GPUs are supposed to be Feature Set H but GP107, GP108, and GP102-350 support 10-bit VP9 while the rest don't.

EDIT: just out of curiosity, has anyone compared VDPAU deinterlacing to Windows DXVA deinterlacing on NVIDIA?

[aufkrawall]

mpv offers first-field bob temporal temporal-spatial (default: temporal) for vdpaupp. Just like the available D3D11VA deinterlacers, they all show that aliased look compared to YADIF. So I don't think VDPAU deinterlacing is much different.
I guess it at least doesn't show that idiotic DXVA2 chroma shift, just like VDPAU decoding doesn't show that idiotic chroma blur problem with OpenGL.

There's btw. no deinterlacing for Nvidia's new proprietary decoder NVDEC, and CUVID deinterlacing seems broken on Linux.

[el Filou]

Has anybody ever seen a 4K MPEG2 video in the wild?
I've always found it weird NVIDIA would support decoding that codec at 4K.
I know 4K MJPEG is actually used (some Canon cameras, I think) but I thought everybody else had moved to AVC-Intra or something else H.264 based instead of MPEG2 for 4K.

[gagmani]

I bought a Freesync monitor and plan to buy an RX 580. Is VP9 hardware acceleration still broken on AMD? I have an 1030 which works flawlessly with 4k vp9/hevc.

[Yups]

The new 15.60.1.4877 driver comes with some Media improvements for Kabylake according to the release notes.


- Enhanced performance in HEVC/H.265 video playback on Intel 7th Gen Core processors or higher
- Improvements in the Intel® Media SDK (MSDK), leading to better
encoding quality across dependent media apps such as PowerDirector*, MAGIX*, etc.
https://downloadmirror.intel.com/27355/eng/ReleaseNotes_GFX_15.60.01.4877.pdf

[NikosD]

I bought a Freesync monitor and plan to buy an RX 580. Is VP9 hardware acceleration still broken on AMD? I have an 1030 which works flawlessly with 4k vp9/hevc.VP9 hardware decoding works only for YouTube officially, using Windows 10 and some modern browser in latest versions (like Chrome, Firefox)

Of course, it's not pure hardware decoding but actually it's hybrid (using GPU processing)

[senseipiledrive2]

Hey everyone, I could use help with my video settings. Installing newest klite standard with mpc-hc + madvr, I use a 6770k CPU and 980ti vid card.

After reading, it seems D3D11VA hardware acceleration is a good choice for my setup. However, I left VP9 and HEVC acceleration unchecked, because it will use hybrid GPU (980ti) acceleration, which will probably lower the performance over software for those choices. Is this correct? I also checked the boxes in the Lav Video Decoder settings for Hardware Decoder to use: D3D11, Codecs for HW: All except Vp9, HEVC, HEVC 10. Under hardware device to use: Automatic (Native) is selected. Is this right?

(Edit): Also...I use a 1080p TV that uses limited colors, not full range. I've set my Nvidia panel to full range (new drivers), MadVR to limited range...and I just found out I can change the output to full, limited, or native in LAV Video Decoder settings. I have it set to "Limited." Does this even have an effect since I use MadVR and have it selected there?

Random last question: I unchecked 8-bit audio integer under LAV audio output options: I don't think my computer or receiver support this, nor do I have 8-bit audio files (I think). Should I leave 8-bit checked?

[clsid]

Yes, hybrid decoding uses a significant amount of GPU resources. If software decoding works smoothly (which it should with your CPU) then it best to have all GPU resources available to madVR.

The range setting in LAV should be left at default. Audio output as well. LAV will take care over everything.

[aufkrawall]

The hybrid VP9 decoder of Polaris seems to be working quite well in Chrome, playback of 4k 60fps is smooth and CPU usage is much lower than with software decoding.
Reported GPU usage is low too, but I'd add a questionmark to that since it allegedly even is lower than when using software decoding and the reported GPU usage on AMD is still an unreliable mess compared to Nvidia.

[Cary Knoop]

There's btw. no deinterlacing for Nvidia's new proprietary decoder NVDEC
So for instance -c:v hevc_cuvid is not part of NVDEC? :confused: ?

[nevcairiel]

NVDEC and CUVID is exactly the same thing, they just re-branded it to match NVENC. It still offers the deinterlacing capability in the API.

At this point I'm going to assume this confusion started because FFmpeg implemented a new hardware acceleration module using CUVID/NVDEC and named it "nvdec" (in addition to the "cuvid" decoders it already had), and it got quite a bit mis-reported on pages like Phoronix as something magically new, but if this is not your source of confusion then carry on.

The (relatively new) hardware acceleration in FFmpeg called "nvdec" does not offer deinterlacing, because it doesn't fit into the model of how its implemented (decoding and processing should be separated). But thats just implementation, not a change in the API.
As a bonus, the way its done you get the full metadata capability from the FFmpeg decoder, including full SEI parsing for HDR and whatnot - something the stand-alone cuvid decoder could not offer without a lot of extra effort (and even the deinterlacing in the stand-alone cuvid decoder was problematic because decoders are not meant to suddenly double the frame rate in FFmpeg).

In general the "nvdec" implementation in FFmpeg is a much cleaner approach, as it basically behaves like any traditional hardware acceleration API (like VDPAU, VAAPI, DXVA, etc), which allows getting the benefits of the full software decoders in FFmpeg, just with hardware speed. The only downside is that you can't hack in support for some processing features the CUVID/NVDEC API offers, because the decoders are required to output a pristine decoded image, no changes.

All this is not due to a change in the NVIDIA Video SDK however, this could've been done like this years ago, but it is more effort then the simple stand-alone decoders and just simply wasn't done before. It was called "nvdec" to differentiate itself from the old "cuvid" implementation as well as to match the re-branding NVIDIA did, but just to be safe and repeat this: This is not a new API or even new hardware. Internally they didn't even rename any functions, its just an external name.

[Cary Knoop]

The (relatively new) hardware acceleration in FFmpeg called "nvdec" does not offer deinterlacing, because it doesn't fit into the model of how its implemented (decoding and processing should be separated). But thats just implementation, not a change in the API.

If I try deinterlacing using a fully NVDEC and NVENC hardware path it seems to work just fine, am I mistaken?

For instance:

ffmpeg -y -vsync 0 -hwaccel cuvid -c:v mpeg2_cuvid -deint 1 -i ntscfile.m2v -c:v hevc_nvenc -profile:v main -preset slow -r 60000/1001 -g 1 -b:v 20M out.mp4

Gives me an all-intra, frame doubled hevc file.

[aufkrawall]

Thx for shedding some light on this.
Just wanna add that we shouldn't pay any kudos to Nvidia for it, it's a redundant API which only purpose is assery (not supporting VAAPI on Linux).

[huhn]

it is very unlikely that nvdec was created for linux specificity...
and CUVID was used for hardware acceleration before DXVA implementation was a thing.

[aufkrawall]

it is very unlikely that nvdec was created for linux specificity...

It's the only OS where it makes sense to use it and they dropped VDPAU.
So, yes, there is a connection.

[wanezhiling]

https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_11_29_Here_s_a_first_look_at_the_battery_life_of_HP_s_Ryzen_powered_Envy_x3/dxva.png
Ryzen 5 2500U

[NikosD]

Ryzen APU is a 4K H.264/H.265 (8bit & 10bit)/VP9 (8bit & 10bit) DXVA2 accelerator, but can you run some tests using VP9 in order to find out if it's a hybrid or fixed-function VP9 accelerator ?

I mean if you have access to such hardware of course.

@nevcairiel
Very detailed and thorough report for "nvdec" implementation of FFMPEG.
Thanks.

[aufkrawall]

They haven't exposed VP9 hybrid via DXVA2/D3D11VA on Polaris, so it's probably a sign that it's native with RR.

[wanezhiling]

native

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Radeon-VCN-Encode-Lands
"Video Core Next" supports MPEG-4 AVC and HEVC/H.265 encoding while on the decoding front is MPEG-2, MPEG-4, VC1, MPEG-4 AVC, H.265 HEVC, and VP9.

[wanezhiling]

https://s10.postimg.org/3jmyi9bzt/QQ_20180205142844.jpg

AMD is so f**king weak....
I swear i will never purchase red anythings...:angry:

[huhn]

well maybe wait for 1 or 2 driver before you finally judge this.
maybe try to give the GPU more memory maybe the sharing process is very slow and you clearly need more than 256 mb to do anything related to UHD.
but this looks sad...

[aufkrawall]

Perhaps also try D3D11VA, it's probably fastest in browsers. mpv dumb-mode would also be really fast, but stupid upstream ffmpeg doesn't support VP9 10 bit in hardware.

Edit: You could also try instaling the latest discrete graphics card driver via Windows device manager, it boosts performance in some games compared to the driver delivered with the notebooks.

[NikosD]

AMD is so f**king weak....
I swear i will never purchase red anythings...:angry:

The GPU usage is extremely high for native HW VP9 10bit decoding, almost like video decoding usage.

It looks like a hybrid decoding a lot more than native decoding.

Unless the UHD resolution is too much for scaling using Vega 8 and 256MB is too low for VRAM.

But still, that GPU usage is huge.

Can you try DXVA decoder in benchmark (renderless) mode on the same clip and see the GPU usage again ?

Thanks!

[wanezhiling]

It should be a fixed-function VP9 accelerator according to my experience.
I tested on some 4K_HEVC_10bit_60p and 4K_VP9_8&10bit_60p clips and found the GPU is extremely slow........ With EVR-CP, its dead, R.I.P:devil: With vanilla EVR, well can work but GPU usage is also very high ~90+.

4K_VP9_8bit_60
decode: https://s14.postimg.org/6ovqhf0m9/VP9_D.png
playback(native resolution): https://s14.postimg.org/b9hwwxcs1/VP9_P.png

4K_VP9_10bit_60
decode: https://s14.postimg.org/szjlhyy2p/VP9_10_D.png
playback(native resolution): https://s14.postimg.org/fwnyy3zyp/VP9_10_P.png


ps: the model of the laptop is Lenovo ideapad 720s at DDR4-2133 memory and only single channel.:o

[huhn]

try to give it more Vram like 2gb in the bios is may help a lot.
the next problem could be the intel GPU that is maybe used to display everything so so it needs to be copied there before it can be send to the display which can be really slow and yes nvidia can have this problem too with this terrible optimus implementation.

it depends heavily where the display is connected to is it iGPU or the dGPU and this may change depending on the used connector or the build in display.

[aufkrawall]

I don't think that it's hybrid with RR because when I'm using hybrid VP9 in Chrome with the RX 560, the GPU usage reported by Task Manager is allegedly lower than with software decoding.
It's impossible to be true, that reported D3D GPU usage by the Task Manager (it's been available for ages in hwinfo) probably can't detect the load by the hybrid decoder correctly and gets confused (it can't detect OpenCL and Vulkan Async Compute correctly either).
However, then reported GPU load likely wouldn't be so high with RR, so there probably really is something else going on like weird copyback or driver issues.

It's weird that the video engine runs at 100%, but that doesn't explain the generally high 3D load.

[NikosD]

It should be a fixed-function VP9 accelerator according to my experience.
I tested on some 4K_HEVC_10bit_60p and 4K_VP9_8&10bit_60p clips and found the GPU is extremely slow........ With EVR-CP, its dead, R.I.P[emoji317] With vanilla EVR, well can work but GPU usage is also very high ~90+.


From your results, the CPU usage (almost zero) and the Video Decoding usage (~100%) according to Task Manager, it is 100% sure that the Video Decoding hardware is a pure fixed function implementation.

But the GPU usage shows me a crippled system regarding rendering and displaying the image on the screen.

It looks like Optimus.

Those 95fps of pure decoding are good enough for any clip I think, but they drop to 50fps using EVR.
Not good.

But it's only single channel memory, the results could be a lot better with dual channel memory.

That's a problem that discrete VEGA cards with VCN 1.0 (Video Core Next) shouldn't have and they should keep those 95fps using EVR or even EVR-CP.

[wanezhiling]

Don't worry, AMD is not sentenced to death yet, I will buy a Ryzen 5 2400G soon.

[aufkrawall]

That's a problem that discrete VEGA cards with VCN 1.0 (Video Core Next) shouldn't have and they should keep those 95fps using EVR or even EVR-CP.
Current discrete Vega cards don't have the new VCN of Raven Ridge, and for the one paired with Intel CPU it doesn't matter.

[el Filou]

8 Vega CUs should have no problem downscaling 4K (at least with EVR), the issue is definitely the single channel DDR4-2133.
My discrete card can use up to 13,5-14,5 GB/s memory bandwidth in that situation.
AMD needs some quad channel DDR4 memory for their APUs, that would help a lot. :D

[aufkrawall]

Quick idea: Give Windows 10 video app a try. I wouldn't recommend it for actually watching videos, but it's low on resources and probably can use D3D11VA for VP9 10 bit.

[sneaker_ger]

From VLC 3.0 release notes:
Hardware Decoder:
* Support 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 chroma samplings with VDPAU hw acceleration

What is the meaning behind this? Nvida says: "Decode HW: 4:2:0, ** 4:2:2 is not natively supported on HW (https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdk)".

[Yups]

From your results, the CPU usage (almost zero) and the Video Decoding usage (~100%) according to Task Manager, it is 100% sure that the Video Decoding hardware is a pure fixed function implementation.



It's a slow fixed function implementation (if it is). 72 FPS for VP9 10 bit, my old HD 630 with DDR4-3200 gets 255 fps for this VP9 sample.

[huhn]

From VLC 3.0 release notes:


What is the meaning behind this? Nvida says: "Decode HW: 4:2:0, ** 4:2:2 is not natively supported on HW (https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdk)".

nvidia support hardware decoding of 4:4:4 >lossless progressive< h246 and maybe h265

[NikosD]

It's a slow fixed function implementation (if it is). 72 FPS for VP9 10 bit, my old HD 630 with DDR4-3200 gets 255 fps for this VP9 sample.

Mobile Kabylake CPUs with HD 600 iGPU series released on Q3 2016 but still HD 600 series is the latest iGPU architecture from Intel, even Coffee lake uses the same architecture.

Obviously for Intel there is no reason to change fixed-function hardware in terms of features or performance since Kabylake.

And I think Intel is right.

Is there something better/faster/more efficient in Nvidia's fixed-function hardware ?

We have to wait for Cannonlake to see if Intel changed something inside fixed-function hardware.

[wanezhiling]

Quick idea: Give Windows 10 video app a try.
I knew that, tested already, very fast, video engine 85%, no frames drop


http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html

Version 4.0.0 (02/10/2018)
Added support for video playback and decode using D3D11 Video Acceleration
Added support for video playback using DXVA-HD Video Acceleration
Added GPU engine usage monitor (Winodws10 Fall Creators Update only)
Added support for HEVC Video Extension decoder and MPEG2 Video Extension decoder
Added support to check VP9 hybrid decode acceleration on AMD Radeon GPU
Fixed issue when selecting "VP9" for format in DirectShow/MediaFoundation Decoder Check
Added "Process Priority" setting on playback and decode performance setting form
Updated DSF/MFT Viewer
Changed "DXVA2" to "D3D9" in "Attribute" on DSF/MFT Viewer
Changed system requirements
Minor changes and fixes

[Yups]

Mobile Kabylake CPUs with HD 600 iGPU series released on Q3 2016 but still HD 600 series is the latest iGPU architecture from Intel, even Coffee lake uses the same architecture.

In the meantime AMD released two new GPU architectures. Intel didn't because of their 10nm delays. It's still their old 2015 Gen9 architecture with the addition of a Gen9.5 media block. And Geminilake gets a Gen10 display controller.



We have to wait for Cannonlake to see if Intel changed something inside fixed-function hardware.

Cannonlake is dead more or less, especially 2+2. Intels next meaningful GPU progress will come with Icelake.

[NikosD]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html

OMG!

What an amazing version is this.

It has everything we have ever dreamed of and all the features are working perfect.

I tried v4.0.0 using my AMD RX 470 Polaris card on Win 10 Fall Creators Update and it is simply amazing.

You can use and benchmark D3D11 decoding in both native and playback modes.

It can display GPU and Video Decoding usage even using AMD cards (Fall Creators Update only)

It can use and benchmark hybrid VP9 acceleration of VP9 using Polaris cards (!)

The hybrid VP9 accelerator of RX 470 is ~60% faster than my CPU Sandy Core i5-2400 with half CPU usage (!)

I didn't take a look on DXVA-HD acceleration, next time.

All in all, amazing work once again.

[nevcairiel]

I didn't take a look on DXVA-HD acceleration, next time.

Back when I tried to play with it, AMD didn't implement DXVA-HD at all. Not sure that changed. DXVA-HD also goes mostly unused, so its probably not a big deal.

[aufkrawall]

It still reports that DXVA HD is not supported, but I'm really not missing it.

The VP9 hybrid decoder of Polaris seems to be much more useful than what Nvidia used on Maxwell for HEVC 8 bit, at least it doesn't fry the GPU.

Btw: mpv offers zero copy D3D11VA, it saves quite an amount of CPU and GPU performance here with AMD. Weird thing is that it had the opposite effect with Nvidia.

[littleD]

DXVA-HD is not used by any decoder on main dxva checker page. Nonetheless intel supports it for kabylake at least in one of the earlier gpu drivers releases.

Also i believe that on second tab (dsh/MF decoder) all benchmarks and playback is done only at supported "mode" by decoder. So, even if you choose dxva-HD, you play at either dxva2 or dxva11, and lavfilters are one-level decoder, so you have to manually change option dxva vs d311, and lavs supports on decoder tab, only one "mode" at a time.

After some short testing in d3d11 mode, microsoft mf decoder plays Arri65_from_raw.mp4 file fluent, while lavfilters shutters, and thats the concern on intel all the time.

[NikosD]

Well, my HD 4400 of Core i3 4170 with v4835 drivers (latest) has DXVA-HD "Playback" mode available in benchmark and normal playback.

I can't see any difference in terms of quality or performance compared to DXVA2 and D3D11.

I think that DXVA-HD is rather old used in Windows 7 OS and it doesn't make any difference.

Just another feature added to an impressive tool - DXVAChecker - in order to be complete, I think.

[v0lt]

DXVA-HD is not a decoder, it's a video processor. It's similar to DXVA2-VP, but it has a slightly different API.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee663586(v=vs.85).aspx
Microsoft DirectX Video Acceleration High Definition (DXVA-HD) is an API for hardware-accelerated video processing. DXVA-HD uses the GPU to perform functions such as deinterlacing, compositing, and color-space conversion.

DXVA-HD is similar to DXVA Video Processing (DXVA-VP), but offers enhanced features and a simpler processing model. By providing a more flexible composition model, DXVA-HD is designed to support the next generation of HD optical formats and broadcast standards.

[NikosD]

Test system:

Core i5-2400 (Sandybridge)

Win 10 x64 (16299.194)

AMD RX 470 - 18.2.1 drivers

DXVA Checker v4.0.0 in Decode Benchmark Mode

LAV filters x64 0.71



Legacy (Bluray) codecs (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)



MPEG2 (1080p clip 38Mbps / 30fps)


LAV CPU 479fps CPU 70%

LAV DXVA2 cb 179fps CPU 4% GPU 15% VPU 99%

MS MF DXVA2 161fps CPU 29%

LAV D3D11 cb 155fps CPU 6% GPU 8% VPU 93%

MS MF D3D11 131fps CPU 26% VPU 99%

LAV DXVA2 na 128fps CPU 1% GPU 0% VPU 98%


Comments:

1) LAV SW decoding is a lot faster than HW decoding, as MPEG2 is an easy to decode format and HW acceleration doesn't care for top speeds (for AMD at least)

2) LAV DXVA2 native performance is the lowest and copy-back is the highest, probably because clocks are pushed higher for 3D (copy-back) mode.
I didn't monitor GPU clocks, but i have no other explanation.
AMD is using UVD in a strange way.

3) MS MF DXVA2 falls back to SW mode for MPEG2.



VC-1 (Devil May Cry 1080p clip 40Mbps / 60fps)



MS MF CPU 232fps CPU 93%

LAV CPU 220fps CPU 92%

MS DS CPU 194fps CPU 93%

LAV DXVA2 cb 95fps CPU 3% GPU 8% VPU 99%

LAV D3D11 cb 81fps CPU 3% GPU 4% VPU 96%

LAV DXVA2 na 47fps CPU 0% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF DXVA2 47fps CPU 1% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF D3D11 47fps CPU 25% VPU 99%




Comments:

1) VC-1 is more complex to decode using the same bandwidth than MPEG2 (For AMD's implementation)

2) MS MFT CPU decoding is faster than both DS filters (LAV, MS DS) and all CPU decoders are a lot faster than HW VC-1 decoding (for AMD at least)

3) LAV DXVA2 native performance, like MS MFT DXVA2/D3D11 native, is the lowest and copy-back is the highest, probably because clocks are pushed higher for 3D (copy-back) mode and it's lower than real-time (47fps vs 60fps)
I didn't monitor GPU clocks, but i have no other explanation.
AMD is using UVD in a strange way.

4) During normal playback using DXVA2 native mode, you can reach 60fps easily like DXVA2 copy-back mode and unlike DXVA2 native in Decode Benchmark mode.
AMD is using UVD in a strange way.




H.264 (Ducks Take Off 2160p clip 370Mbps / 50fps)



LAV DXVA2 cb 59fps CPU 6% GPU 18% VPU 98%

LAV D3D11 cb 59fps CPU 7% GPU 11% VPU 99%

MS MF DXVA2 na 58fps CPU 2% GPU 0% VPU 98%

MS MF D3D11 58fps CPU 3% GPU 0% VPU 99%

LAV DXVA2 na 57fps CPU 3% GPU 0% VPU 98%

LAV CPU 23fps CPU 93%

MS DS CPU 19fps CPU 95%

MS MF CPU 19fps CPU 96%

MS DS DXVA2 na Incompatible





Comments:

1) 370Mbps bandwidth is no match for Sandy Core i5 CPU. You need HW acceleration (obviously)

2) There is no real difference between copy-back and native modes regarding performance

3) LAV (ffmpeg) CPU decoding is more optimized than MS

4) MS DS DXVA2 native could only decode once that particular clip (the other runs couldn't complete)


Last comment for all clips (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)

D3D11 cb is more optimized than DXVA2 cb in terms of lower GPU usage for LAV.

All MS MFT HW accelerated codecs work in native mode.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.0.1 (02/18/2018)
Fixed the same GPU was displayed in GPU selector when enabling extend on multi display
Fixed HEVC_VLD_Main was not displayed as supported mode in LAV Filters Version 0.71.0 when selecting "H.265/HEVC" for format

[NikosD]

Has anyone noticed that H.264 spec has expanded to 8K officially ?

It seems that there are new Levels 6, 6.1, 6.2 which all support 8K and especially L6.2 goes up to 8K120fps and 800 Mbps (!) bandwidth.

I wonder if there are any actual commercial uses for those H.264 levels and if x264 supports those levels in its latest versions.

I'm sure no HW accelerator exists supporting H.264 L6.x, though.

[sneaker_ger]

x264 supports the new levels.

[mytbyte]

@NikosD: it's probably to standardize 8K h264 for picture aquisition (in cameras). It's easier to decode in CPU than h265 in editing or if CPU is still too weak, it gets converted to intermediate low-CPU, gigantic-files-codec for editing more often than not

[NikosD]

DXVA-HD is not a decoder, it's a video processor. It's similar to DXVA2-VP, but it has a slightly different API.

x264 supports the new levels.

@NikosD

Thanks all for the info!

[NikosD]

Test system:

Core i3-4170 (Haswell)

Win 10 x64 (16299.194)

Dual DDR3-1600MHz

Intel iGPU HD 4400@1.3GHz - v4835 drivers

DXVA Checker v4.0.1 in Decode Benchmark Mode

LAV filters x64 0.71



Legacy (Bluray) codecs (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)



MPEG2 (1080p clip 38Mbps / 30fps)



LAV DXVA2 na 1470fps CPU 13% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF D3D11 750fps CPU 15% VPU 52%

LAV DXVA2 cb 421fps CPU 15% GPU 0% VPU 60%

LAV CPU 407fps CPU 77%

LAV DXVA2 QS 358fps CPU 33% GPU 0% VPU 52%

MS MF DXVA2 198fps CPU 28%

LAV D3D11 cb 170fps CPU 3% GPU 60% VPU 19%





Comments:

1) Make no mistake, that 1470 fps performance is real. QuickSync ASIC is extremely fast even in that ancient and less demanding format - MPEG2

2) The MS MFT DXVA2 performance is unexpectedly slow, the SW fall back mode doesn't seem to utilize properly the CPU.

3) The fastest performance comes when VPU is fully utilized and iGPU clocks go up to maximum 3D clocks, which is the case for LAV DXVA2 native and MS MFT D3D11 only.



VC-1 (Devil May Cry 1080p clip 40Mbps / 60fps)



LAV DXVA2 na 1067fps CPU 12% GPU 0% VPU 93%

MS MF D3D11 678fps CPU 8% GPU 27% VPU 59%

MS MF DXVA2 668fps CPU 10% GPU 28% VPU 60%

LAV DXVA2 cb 565fps CPU 26% GPU 0% VPU 80%

LAV DXVA2 QS 220fps CPU 19% GPU 0% VPU 41%

MS MF CPU 154fps CPU 50%

LAV CPU 143fps CPU 51%

LAV D3D11 cb 127fps CPU 5% GPU 55% VPU 23%

MS DS CPU 119fps CPU 72%



Comments:

1) VC-1 is more complex to decode using the same bandwidth than MPEG2 (For Intel's implementation)

2) Again the highest performance is achieved by using DXVA2 native mode of LAV video, leveraging fully the VPU and 3D highest clocks.




H.264 (Ducks Take Off 2160p clip 370Mbps / 50fps)



LAV DXVA2 na 144fps CPU 7% GPU 0% VPU 94%

MS DS DXVA2 137fps CPU 12% GPU 0% VPU 90%

MS MF D3D11 123fps CPU 7% GPU 0% VPU 76%

MS MF DXVA2 110fps CPU 4% GPU 0% VPU 69%

LAV DXVA2 cb 97fps CPU 17% GPU 0% VPU 79%

LAV DXVA2 QS 58fps CPU 28% GPU 0% VPU 72%

LAV D3D11 cb 46fps CPU 5% GPU 42% VPU 34%

LAV CPU 20fps CPU 93%

MS DS CPU 11fps CPU 48%

MS MF CPU 10fps CPU 46%



Comments:

1) This time we don't see huge numbers for HW acceleration, but still it's almost 3x real-time decoding (50fps vs 144fps)

2) LAV (ffmpeg) CPU decoding is twice as fast as MS, due to the CPU utilization (MS is like using no hyperthreading)



Last comment for all clips (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)

1) D3D11 cb is more optimized than DXVA2 cb in terms of lower CPU usage but no GPU usage like AMD.

This time for Intel, GPU usage using D3D11 is huge (especially for LAV).

2) All MS MFT HW accelerated codecs work in native mode.

[NikosD]

Test system:

Core 2 Duo E7300 (Wolfdale@2.83GHz)

Win 10 x64 (16299.192)

Nvidia GT610 - v390.77 drivers

PCI-E v1.x compatible (x4)

DXVA Checker v4.0.1 in Decode Benchmark Mode

LAV filters x64 0.71


The Nvidia card has two more parameters monitored by DXVA Checker, than Intel and AMD.

For MPEG2 and VC-1 it uses three video decoding engines, so DXVA Checker reports three different values for Video decoding.

For H.264, Nvidia uses two video decoding engines and one GPU copy engine, so DXVA Checker reports two different values for video decoding and one for GPU copy.

I measured the copy-back modes for MPEG2 but for the other two formats i didn't, because of the slow PCI-E bus.



Legacy (Bluray) codecs (MPEG2, VC-1, H.264)



MPEG2 (1080p clip 38Mbps / 30fps)



MS MF D3D11 166fps CPU 10% GPU 0% VPU 98%

LAV DXVA2 na 165fps CPU 8% GPU 0% VPU 98%

LAV CPU 124fps CPU 74%

MS MF DXVA2 104fps CPU 18%

LAV D3D11 cb 59fps CPU 36% GPU 84% VPU 38%

LAV DXVA2 cb 52fps CPU 7% GPU 84% VPU 43%

LAV CUVID 47fps CPU 5% GPU 87% VPU 36%




Comments:


1) The MS MFT DXVA2 performance is unreasonable again, as it seems that SW fall back is strange at least.




VC-1 (Devil May Cry 1080p clip 40Mbps / 60fps)



LAV DXVA2 na 146fps CPU 10% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF D3D11 145fps CPU 2% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF DXVA2 145fps CPU 5% GPU 0% VPU 99%

LAV D3D11 cb 59fps CPU 38% GPU 82% VPU 45%

MS MF CPU 53fps CPU 90%

LAV CPU 49fps CPU 90%

MS DS CPU 44fps CPU 93%



Comments:


1) VC-1 seems to have the same complexity to decode using the same bandwidth like MPEG2 (For Nvidia's implementation)




H.264 (Ducks Take Off 2160p clip 370Mbps / 50fps)



MS MF D3D11 29fps CPU 3% GPU 0% VPU 99%

MS MF DXVA2 28fps CPU 4% GPU 0% VPU 96%

LAV DXVA2 na 28fps CPU 5% GPU 0% VPU 97%

MS DS DXVA2 27fps CPU 9% GPU 0% VPU 95%

LAV D3D11 cb 16fps CPU 15% GPU 85% VPU 57%

LAV CPU 9fps CPU 94%

MS MF CPU 7fps CPU 94%

MS DS CPU Incompatible




Comments:

1) The specific clip with 370Mbps bandwidth is clearly out of real-time decoding for the old VP5 video decoder of Nvidia.

2) Again these are the most reasonable results with no surprises, besides the wrong number of decoded frames for MS DS CPU.

[el Filou]

Why test H.264 at such a high bitrate when you'll never encounter that in any commercial content?

[wanezhiling]

https://s14.postimg.org/rtykjnvvl/234242rzcdwwrv4pdo9p4g.jpg

Desktop R3 2200G, no miracle

[NikosD]

Desktop R3 2200G, no miracle

Only 1GB for VRAM ?

The GPU usage goes to maximum 100% probably due to low VRAM and scaling.

The VPU could reach 60fps, it's not 100% used.

[huhn]

gaming tests show it doesn't really matter if you give the iGPU 64 mb or 2 gb of Vram the performance is about the same.

and it is a really bad implementation if you have to tweak it anyway. so i point at driver or they don't really care.

[el Filou]

Yes, modern iGPUs dynamically allocate VRAM.

Isn't there some way with and AMD app to "tune" the available power of the APU in favour of its GPU? The task manager graph shows it's compute limited.

[NikosD]

Vega 8/11 is a very very powerful iGPU (actually the strongest iGPU ever), so it's completely unreasonable why GPU usage goes to 100%

Driver problem ?
hidden VPP filters enabled by default ?
HW implementation fault (like Optimus) ?

Who knows...

[v0lt]

Desktop R3 2200G, no miracle
Please make a screenshot in MPC-BE.

MPC-BE 1.5.2.3435 without installer is here (https://yadi.sk/d/hNmZm-Yq3NkFuM).

[mytbyte]

I'm not sure AMD APU-s will allocate more than 1GB even if they do allocate VRAM dynamically i.e it will use dynamic allocation up to the 1GB limit...it must be forced in BIOS to 2GB...I feel lack of VRAM is the primary reason, gaming is a different beast

[littleD]

I cannot believe it but it is truth, 250MB vs 2GB gives almost no difference in games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDmYHpykcDo
Thats how modern system works.

On a wanezhiling picture VRAm is set to 1GB and is fully occupied. Does decode engine behave differently than games?

Remeber, recommended RAM clocks are 3200 MGH which gives nice boost over 2400. Should help a bit decoding too?

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.0.2 (03/04/2018)
Added an index to the GPU engine name when there were more than one engine with the same name
Minor fix

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.1.0 (03/25/2018)
Now show "VP9_Profile0_NoDXVA_AMD" on Decoder Device when your AMD Radeon GPU supports VP9 hybrid decode acceleration
Fixed error when checking device under specific conditions
Fixed error when checking DirectShow/MediaFoundation decoder on Windows Vista
Changed GPU selector to GPU menu
Added "Submit Device Information to Database" menu item to GPU menu
Minor changes and fixes

[NikosD]

https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_11_29_Here_s_a_first_look_at_the_battery_life_of_HP_s_Ryzen_powered_Envy_x3/dxva.png
Ryzen 5 2500U

Unfortunately, latest ultra fast (for gaming) iGPU RX Vega M GH of Hades Canyon doesn't support native VP9 (not even 8bit/ Profile 1).

It's only hybrid VP9 acceleration like Polaris and discrete VEGA.

https://s18.postimg.org/x79xhhat5/Radeon-_DC.png

[huhn]

they have the intel iGPU not a huge deal.

[NikosD]

they have the intel iGPU not a huge deal.

Unfortunately they don't:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12572/the-intel-hades-canyon-nuc8i7hvk-review-kaby-lakeg-benchmarked/7

[huhn]

Unfortunately they don't:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12572/the-intel-hades-canyon-nuc8i7hvk-review-kaby-lakeg-benchmarked/7

d3d11 copyback?

i'm not here to say this "system" is a nice thing or something but you can access the intel decoder if you want to.

and there is no question if the intel iGPU is present.

and how they test "play back "accuracy" anadtech seriously you even get a dropped frame every 24 mins...

[NikosD]

d3d11 copyback?

i'm not here to say this "system" is a nice thing or something but you can access the intel decoder if you want to.

and there is no question if the intel iGPU is present.

and how they test "play back "accuracy" anadtech seriously you even get a dropped frame every 24 mins...

No, you are wrong here.

It seems that Intel's system is using outputs only from RX Vega M, so no Intel iGPU can be used directly although it's present.

And from the article I read this:
madVR 0.92.12 was evaluated with MPC-HC 1.7.15 (unofficial release) with its integrated LAV Filters 0.71. The video decoder was set to Direct 3D mode, with automatic selection of the GPU for decoding operations.

It seems obvious to me that Intel wants RX Vega M to be used for video decoding and rendering, but the initial statements of Intel said that Intel's iGPU is present exactly for that reason, to be used for decoding and rendering should be executed on RX Vega M.

But then why did they leave Intel's iGPU active if they wanted RX Vega M only to be used even for decoding ?

It's just another weird decision from a big company.

What a common situation.

[NikosD]

d3d11 copyback?

i'm not here to say this "system" is a nice thing or something but you can access the intel decoder if you want to.

and there is no question if the intel iGPU is present.

and how they test "play back "accuracy" anadtech seriously you even get a dropped frame every 24 mins...


You could be right actually.

From Tom's Hardware I get a different picture for Hades Canyon (Kabylake-G)

All Kaby Lake-Gs support dual-channel DDR4-2400 (no ECC) memory.

You'll notice that they also sport HD Graphics 630 and AMD's discrete GPU, too.

Intel doesn't use its integrated engine for either NUC's display outputs.

Instead, that hardware remains available for OpenCL-based compute workloads and QuickSync-accelerated software.

Some Kaby Lake-G products will use HD Graphics 630 for driving up to three 4K monitors. In those cases, the processor will power gate (turn off) the Vega GPU and its HBM2 during light graphics workloads

Anandtech and ganesh should try that copy-back mode (D3D9 and especially D3D11) you mentioned just for testing.

Maybe it works, after all.

We have to wait for a better review than Anandtech's or a forum member from here to test it.

[Morku]

For LAV Video I can decide which Hardware Device is to use.
But what's about Edge/Firefox when I go for youtube and not to use Vega? Is there a setting for it?

I am also very interested in the new NUC models as HTPC. But disadvantages in Hardware Acceleration would be a completly no go for it.

[Warner306]

For LAV Video I can decide which Hardware Device is to use.
But what's about Edge/Firefox when I go for youtube and not to use Vega? Is there a setting for it?

I am also very interested in the new NUC models as HTPC. But disadvantages in Hardware Acceleration would be a completly no go for it.

I wouldn't use a NUC if I wanted to use madVR. The new NUCs will hardware decode, though, via the Intel iGPU.

[huhn]

DXVA will not work it needs a connected display.
if an intel iGPU is present (and it is) there is absolutely no reason why D3D11 should not work.

if lavfilter can use d3d11 copyback every program on windows can do the same in theory. it's more of the question if they make the work of adding that for these NUCs or not. checking 2 GPUs for the hardware acceleration possibilities is clearly doable.

[NikosD]

DXVA will not work it needs a connected display.

IIRC, the fake display trick on Windows 7 or better works for DXVA2 copy-back of LAV filters besides QuickSync of course.

But I'm not sure.

[huhn]

a GPU doesn't know the difference between a fake display and a real one so yes this would work but it is far from practical and why should someone do that when d3d11 is an option.

[NikosD]

D3D11 is not working on Windows 7, it needs a newer version.

Window 7 is sill a 50% OS

Also, I think D3D11 is not as popular, stable and with a predictive behavior like DXVA2.

[Morku]

I wouldn't use a NUC if I wanted to use madVR. The new NUCs will hardware decode, though, via the Intel iGPU.

Why not? Decoding with Intel GPU and scalling processing with Vega GPU would sound like a nice solution if possible and I am not overlook something important.

@NikosD
People who still use Windows 7 will know why.
For multimedia reason I don't see a point to stay for Windows 7.
Where did you get the information that D3D11 is not stable and predictive like DXVA2?
And if we are still talking about the newer NUC, Kabylake/Coffeelake don't support Windows 7 anyway.

[NikosD]

Regarding D3D11, just from my personal (little) experience using MS and LAV decoders.

Windows 7 is not official supported, but you can install it on Kabylake.

[huhn]

D§D11 is rock stable i'm not even sure if there is a single know crash that can happen under normal usage.

the lavfilter d3d11 implementation is using some parts from DX11 that is not present on windows 7.

if you want to use new stuff you have to use a new OS too it's simple as that and people with new hardware will use far far more than 50 % windows 10 i even go as far and say that a modern 2018 PC with windows 7 will be a total excepetion.

there are a lot of reasons not to use a system like that for madVR like zotac has PCs in that size with a 1060 in it for far less but do as you please...

[NikosD]

Don't take my posts personally and I almost never speak for myself in this thread.

My comments are general, trying always to include most cases, even the corner ones.

I install new Windows OS on all (almost) of my machines, even before the official release.

I hope it's more clear now.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.1.1 (04/01/2018)
Fixed wrong buffer size in presenter
Minor changes

[el Filou]

The only letdown here is that Intel will not support HDR on Gemini Lake NUCs. You will need to get at least an i3 NUC in order to play HDR videos in Windows 10.Well that is a shame. :(

[clsid]

Encoding. Real-time is implicit for decoding.

[NikosD]

Cannonlake is dead more or less, especially 2+2. Intels next meaningful GPU progress will come with Icelake.

I'm really confused after the latest bunch of new Coffeelake CPUs and 300 series chipsets, which are actually Cannonlake's PCH.

Which will be Intel's next CPU for desktop and when ?

Is it a Cannonlake for desktop (CNL-S) at 10nm around Q3 2018 ?

Is it an Icelake for desktop using 10nm+ process on 2019 ?

Maybe a new Coffeelake at 14nm+++(+) ?

Very frustrated situation.

[el Filou]

Maybe they'll pull a Broadwell again and release just 2 SKUs for desktop Cannon Lake ?

[aufkrawall]

Also, I think D3D11 is not as popular, stable and with a predictive behavior like DXVA2.
My experience with various GPUs of Intel, AMD and Nvidia shows the opposite, D3D11VA without copyback is simply superior over DXVA2 in practice.
In mpv, you can use zero copy decoding, which is even faster than DXVA2 + EVR on Intel, while having uncompromised quality at the same time regarding internal processing precision (no banding). And unlike DXVA2, it doesn't manipulate colors in general.

[Yups]

I'm really confused after the latest bunch of new Coffeelake CPUs and 300 series chipsets, which are actually Cannonlake's PCH.

Which will be Intel's next CPU for desktop and when ?

Is it a Cannonlake for desktop (CNL-S) at 10nm around Q3 2018 ?

Is it an Icelake for desktop using 10nm+ process on 2019 ?

Maybe a new Coffeelake at 14nm+++(+) ?

Very frustrated situation.



There is an 8C Coffeelake-R coming this year. The next major upgrade will be Icelake-S next year, probably sometime in H2 2019.

[NikosD]

Thanks.

Then I'll probably buy next month my new system.

I'll wait for a Core i5 8400 vs Ryzen 2600 comparison using a B360 vs B350 chipset.

I lean toward Core i5 8400 due to iGPU since dGPUs are still too expensive and Ryzen doesn't have iGPU.

I could add a dGPU later, when Chinese Ethereum ASICs do their job for GPU prices.

There is an 8C Coffeelake-R coming this year.

But a Core i5 9400 6C/12T vs Core i5 8400 could be even more interesting, depending on its price though.

[Morku]

Unfortunately, latest ultra fast (for gaming) iGPU RX Vega M GH of Hades Canyon doesn't support native VP9 (not even 8bit/ Profile 1).

It's only hybrid VP9 acceleration like Polaris and discrete VEGA.


they have the intel iGPU not a huge deal.

Unfortunately they don't:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12572/the-intel-hades-canyon-nuc8i7hvk-review-kaby-lakeg-benchmarked/7

No, you are wrong here.

It seems that Intel's system is using outputs only from RX Vega M, so no Intel iGPU can be used directly although it's present.

And from the article I read this:


It seems obvious to me that Intel wants RX Vega M to be used for video decoding and rendering, but the initial statements of Intel said that Intel's iGPU is present exactly for that reason, to be used for decoding and rendering should be executed on RX Vega M.

But then why did they leave Intel's iGPU active if they wanted RX Vega M only to be used even for decoding ?

It's just another weird decision from a big company.

What a common situation.

How about the new advanced graphic setting in Windows 1803?
https://pureinfotech.com/set-gpu-app-windows-10/

Shouldn't be possible to set the option for the Browser to use Intel GPU? Anandtech posted a picture, that DXVA checker do have access to Intel 630 GPU with VP9.
But how to set Intel GPU for Power saving and Vegas for High performance?
Would be UHD Blu-rays possible than?

[nsnhd]

Movie & TV has improved, plays more formats, more smoothly.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.1.2 (05/19/2018)
Fixed app crash issue on Radeon GPU under specific conditions
Fixed app error issue when using D3D11 video acceleration during video palyback and benchmark under specific conditions
Minor changes and fixes

[NikosD]

The unbelievable truth regarding 10nm process of Intel:
In the end we have a chip being built on a troubled 10nm process.
In six months Intel can make 15% of a day’s production on those production lines.
The resultant chips are abjectly broken, they are 2+1 but the +1 doesn’t work which means they are selling a CPU with half the die turned off, an expensive proposition given the cost of the process and the shatteringly low yields.
Even with the GPU turned off, the resultant CPU uses twice the power of the 14nm devices to run slower than those with a GPU.

OEMs won’t touch these 10nm parts either voluntarily or with ‘not bribes’ so Intel has to twist arms and force them to make laptops and “Make it ‘look real“.
Why?
To put out a data point that they can build ‘truth’ and ‘alternative facts’ around when it comes time to talk to analysts.
The 10nm Cannon Lake parts aren’t real and never will be viable, financially or technically speaking.
Feel free to believe the PR messaging but you can’t say you don’t know what is really going on now.

https://semiaccurate.com/2018/05/29/is-intels-upcoming-10nm-launch-real-or-a-pr-stunt/

[mariner]

Request for VP9 8k10bits test sample

Greettings, many thanks to Nikos and others for doing all the hard work adn sharing their findings here.

The 8k streams found on youtube are mostly of 8bit variant. Would anyoen be kind enough to share a link for VP9 8k10bit clip?

Many thanks and best regards,

[sneaker_ger]

At least youtube-dl doesn't show any 8K HDR streams, always 4K and lower in HDR, 8K in SDR/8 bit. So I guess Youtube simply doesn't yet offer 8K HDR?

[littleD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ

here you have but i didnt download this video and didnt check actual properties. firefox addon download helper offer download but with additional software.

[sneaker_ger]

No, same as the other videos. No 8K HDR (unless there is a secret way I don't know about).
youtube-dl -F 1La4QzGeaaQ
[youtube] 1La4QzGeaaQ: Downloading webpage
[youtube] 1La4QzGeaaQ: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] 1La4QzGeaaQ: Extracting video information
[info] Available formats for 1La4QzGeaaQ:
format code extension resolution note
249 webm audio only DASH audio 58k , opus @ 50k, 2.01MiB
250 webm audio only DASH audio 78k , opus @ 70k, 2.68MiB
171 webm audio only DASH audio 126k , vorbis@128k, 4.67MiB
140 m4a audio only DASH audio 128k , m4a_dash container, mp4a.40.2@128k, 5.12MiB
251 webm audio only DASH audio 150k , opus @160k, 5.29MiB
278 webm 256x144 144p 108k , webm container, vp9, 30fps, video only, 3.68MiB
160 mp4 256x144 144p 112k , avc1.4d400c, 30fps, video only, 2.55MiB
242 webm 426x240 240p 240k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 7.85MiB
133 mp4 426x240 240p 247k , avc1.4d4015, 30fps, video only, 5.48MiB
330 webm 256x144 144p60 HDR 248k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 8.73MiB
243 webm 640x360 360p 444k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 14.57MiB
331 webm 426x240 240p60 HDR 508k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 18.86MiB
134 mp4 640x360 360p 739k , avc1.4d401e, 30fps, video only, 16.87MiB
244 webm 854x480 480p 830k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 26.89MiB
332 webm 640x360 360p60 HDR 1093k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 40.84MiB
135 mp4 854x480 480p 1359k , avc1.4d401f, 30fps, video only, 36.82MiB
247 webm 1280x720 720p 1728k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 54.49MiB
333 webm 854x480 480p60 HDR 2017k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 76.49MiB
302 webm 1280x720 720p60 2664k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 91.83MiB
136 mp4 1280x720 720p 2724k , avc1.4d401f, 30fps, video only, 72.69MiB
248 webm 1920x1080 1080p 2748k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 96.11MiB
298 mp4 1280x720 720p60 4175k , avc1.4d4020, 60fps, video only, 117.08MiB
303 webm 1920x1080 1080p60 4499k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 157.80MiB
334 webm 1280x720 720p60 HDR 4560k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 175.81MiB
137 mp4 1920x1080 1080p 5047k , avc1.640028, 30fps, video only, 131.74MiB
299 mp4 1920x1080 1080p60 7030k , avc1.64002a, 60fps, video only, 203.39MiB
335 webm 1920x1080 1080p60 HDR 7046k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 269.70MiB
271 webm 2560x1440 1440p 9018k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 304.80MiB
308 webm 2560x1440 1440p60 13575k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 471.00MiB
336 webm 2560x1440 1440p60 HDR 16513k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 639.35MiB
313 webm 3840x2160 2160p 18432k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 649.89MiB
315 webm 3840x2160 2160p60 26946k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 1015.76MiB
337 webm 3840x2160 2160p60 HDR 29405k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 1.11GiB
272 webm 7680x4320 4320p60 31841k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 834.77MiB
17 3gp 176x144 small , mp4v.20.3, mp4a.40.2@ 24k
36 3gp 320x180 small , mp4v.20.3, mp4a.40.2
43 webm 640x360 medium , vp8.0, vorbis@128k
18 mp4 640x360 medium , avc1.42001E, mp4a.40.2@ 96k
22 mp4 1280x720 hd720 , avc1.64001F, mp4a.40.2@192k (best)

Gotta find a sample elsewhere (or encode yourself).

[mariner]

Thank fro the kind reply, sneaker and littedD.
The stream appears to be 8bit like many others, no. 272.
I guess sneaker is right about youtube-dl not picking up 8K HDR streams. Would anyone know if it's a youtube-dl limitation?
Many thanks and best regards,

[nevcairiel]

I'm not convinced YouTube actually offers those streams. youtube-dl just gets the info from the server, and if its not there...

[NikosD]

[U]The 8k streams found on youtube are mostly of 8bit variant. Would anyoen be kind enough to share a link for VP9 8k10bit clip?

Many thanks and best regards,

I'm at the beach right now :)

I'll try a Google search later but probably sneaker is right and you have to encode it yourself, it's a little bit difficult request.

I'll do my best.

[mariner]

I'm at the beach right now :)

I'll try a Google search later but probably sneaker is right and you have to encode it yourself, it's a little bit difficult request.

I'll do my best.

Both you and nev deserve that.
:)

[mariner]

Intel Graphics HD 620

Greetings.

Thinking of getting an old entry level Kabylake with mobile i5 7200U/DDR3 running Win7(hacked?). Would like some advice on the hardware decoding capabilities of the HD 620 graphics processor.

1. What's the concensus of this forum on HD620's hardware decoding of 10bit HEVC and VP9, 8K & 4K? Full or hybird? Any bitrate limitation?
2. Is Win7 up to the task? Or is Win10 required? ie D3D11 etc.
3. If DXVA Checker shows HEVC_VLD_Main10, how does one tell if it is full or partial hardware decoding?
4. Does i5 7200u have the power to do softwaer decoding of these 10bit video? i7 7500U?

Many thanks and best regards,

[huhn]

1. they are hardware decoder and they have a bitrate limitation but that'S unimportant for real usages because it is insanely high.

2. lavfilter D3D11 needs windows 8 or newer.

3. you don't know it from this information.

4. no... not even close

[NikosD]

[U]
3. If DXVA Checker shows HEVC_VLD_Main10, how does one tell if it is full or partial hardware decoding

I agree with the previous post of huhn, but I want to add a few things.

For HD 620, what you see in DXVA Checker is full hardware decoding for all codecs/resolutions.

But generally speaking you can't say for sure.

For me, the best way to find out what is really going on, is by monitoring CPU and mainly GPU loading while decoding in DXVA native mode (LAV) and pure decoding DXVA Checker benchmark (not playback mode)

Full hardware decoding gives almost 0% usage for both CPU and GPU loading.

If you see a two digit figure for GPU loading like 20% or more, then it's probably hybrid decoding.

For the rest of your questions, huhn has already replied.

BTW, my first research regarding VP9 8K 10bit gave me nothing.

Almost all of the Google results gave me a YouTube announcement regarding 8K VP9 10bit HDR support, which seems that it doesn't exist.

[mariner]

Thanks for the kind reply huhn and Nikos.

1. So the HD620 should have no issues with the likes of 400mbps Jellyfish and MBC UHD Music Core GFriend - Rough (4in1). Any known test clip that it cannot handle?
2. A question for those with experience running Win7 on Kabylake. Is the good old DXVA2 up to the task?

Many thanks and best regards,

[dredik]

1. On a laptop with i3-7100u with hd620 (2*4Gb dual channel RAM) MBC UHD Music Core GFriend - Rough (4in1) was lagging pretty much. Cant say about hd620 in other CPUs. But I must say that GTX1050Ti 4Gb paired with core i5-7400 (desktop) cant handle this clip either (I could not make it play smooth without hccups :(). 400mbps Jellyfish had no problems on i3-7100u - played great, without frame drops.
2. KabyLake CPUs is not supported by Windows 7. You can install Windows7 on KabyLake system but there is no official HD620 windows7 driver.

[huhn]

why do you even care about these dumb test files?

no commercial file will ever be encoded like this UHD BD are capped at a something like 125 mbit sorry i don't know the exact number because it doesn't matter.

8k may not even use HEVC as a codec but a codec that is not yet supported like AV1.

i mean your GPU can't output 8K 60 hz and no other GPU too and DXVA downscaling is pathetic.

[hajj_3]

UHD bluray max bitrate is 128Mbps. The maximum of kaby is ridiculously high, something like 400Mbps so all consumer h265 videos can be hardware decoded.

[littleD]

Intel Graphics HD 620

Greetings.

Thinking of getting an old entry level Kabylake with mobile i5 7200U/DDR3 running Win7(hacked?). Would like some advice on the hardware decoding capabilities of the HD 620 graphics processor.

1. What's the concensus of this forum on HD620's hardware decoding of 10bit HEVC and VP9, 8K & 4K? Full or hybird? Any bitrate limitation?
2. Is Win7 up to the task? Or is Win10 required? ie D3D11 etc.
3. If DXVA Checker shows HEVC_VLD_Main10, how does one tell if it is full or partial hardware decoding?
4. Does i5 7200u have the power to do softwaer decoding of these 10bit video? i7 7500U?

Many thanks and best regards,I have 620. It plays 8k files nicely i mean hevc and vp9 and rest is 4k only including h264. All files play fluently with dxva, if you wanna use d3d11 forget about high resolutio and 10 bit cause it stutters.
dxva checker cannot show You if chip uses partial decoding. There were some partial decoding profiles long time ago, but they were partial by it means.
4k 50 fps 10bit is slow in software for 7200u, i have no sample with 10 bit 25 fps.
Intel team always drop old windows systems early, i see no drivers for hd620 and windows 7...

[mariner]

Thanks for the kind reply dredik, littleD and otheres.

If HD620 cannot cope with the MBC clip despite being identified by DXVA Checker as 8K HEVC 10bits capable, would anyone know if the UHD 605 (Gemini Lake) or UHD 620 (8th Gen.) can handle this?

Thanks and best regards,

[NikosD]

Does anyone know the difference between Titan V and Pascal's latest video decoder like 1050/1050 Ti/1080 Ti ?

According to DXVA Checker they have similar features but according to Nvidia they belong to different VPDAU sets.

Maybe the have a difference in speed.

Is it Titan V any faster in video decoding than 1080 Ti for example ?

[huhn]

do you really care about a 10k cards hardware decoder?

for end user it should be more interesting if nvidia is releasing new gaming GPU at gamescom.

these quadro cards are most likely 12 nm i only found the die size which is nearly as big as volta with a lower transistor count so unlikely to be 7 mn.

the next big thing for hardware decoder should be AV1 and it's a little bit early for it but i guess doable if they really really wanted to do it but windows has to add it too the 960 had a VP9 decoder but it took quite some time before it was usable.
so i don't except anything new from nvidia this round.

[Cary Knoop]

Is it Titan V any faster in video decoding than 1080 Ti for example ?
Video decoding is not very efficient for CUDA cores. NVIDIA and other GPUs have dedicated encoding and decoding modules. The GPU is more important for image processing.

For image processing, the Titan V is definitely faster but it depends how much of a difference you will actually see!

Most video processing applications use single precision functions as there is no need for double precision functions. The special thing about the Titan V is fast double precision functions (good for artificial neurons) and you pay for that functionality. You can buy three 1080Ti's for one Titan V!

So unless your CUDA software takes advantage of double precision functions for image processing (not likely!) a lot of the gain from the Titan V will be unused.

[NikosD]

Nvidia just announced the new Nvidia Turing GPU microarchitecture at Siggraph, wonder what Feature Set hardware decoder does it have, I like Volta?

do you really care about a 10k cards hardware decoder?

...so i don't except anything new from nvidia this round.

The reason I asked about Titan V is because I had 1150 (Ti) or 2050 (Ti) in mind - I don't know what name will be Nvidia's final decision.

I thought that Titan V most likely has the same video decoder with Volta/Turing/Ampere - whatever Nvidia architecture decides to put in gaming platform.

The gaming cards are very close to release, so I guess we are just going to wait and see.

Video decoding is not very efficient for CUDA cores. NVIDIA and other GPUs have dedicated encoding and decoding modules.

You seem that you weren't been following this thread for a long time.

In the context of this thread, whenever someone is talking about a GPU regarding video performance or features, he is actually referring to VPU - that dedicated ASIC that you mentioned too.

But thanks for the post.

[huhn]

volta is quite old and nvidia has different decoder for the 1080 and the 1050 so more than enough time to add something. so no i don't think it will be the same.

as you already said the decoder from volta is different at least in name from the pascal decoder so the decoder really has to be different for these upcoming cards. if it will be something meaningful i doubt it. maybe is just named different because of the shrink.

my command about 10k cards is about the upcoming quadros. volta/titan V is at least some kind of consumer grade card at least to some people out there.

[NikosD]

From Anandtech:
Finally, while NVIDIA only briefly touched upon the subject, we do know that their video encoder block, NVENC, has been updated for Turing.
The latest iteration of NVENC specifically adds support for 8K HEVC encoding.
Meanwhile NVIDIA has also been able to further tune the quality of their encoder, allowing them to achieve similar quality as before with a 25% lower video bitrate

[alex1399]

No signs for a new hardware decoder block

[sneaker_ger]

The latest pascal decoders leave little to be desired, anyways (except AV1). Encoder improvements would be more important.

[alex1399]

Maybe they could add some hardware enhancer (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/389555) and make the HEVC decode stuffs looks better.

[huhn]

you can destroy your image quality by using the sharpener in the nvidia control panel with a video renderer that supports it by your choice...

[Cary Knoop]

Maybe they could add some hardware enhancer (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/389555) and make the HEVC decode stuffs looks better.
Did you actually read the full topic?

Sharper is not better!

[Forteen88]

Maybe they could add some hardware enhancer (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/389555) and make the HEVC decode stuffs looks better."Sharpening increases high frequency detail (well, in normal circumstances - you could also sharpen/emphasise low frequenzy detail), which then requires more bitrate for the same quantiser (whereas increasing low frequency detail doesn't increase the needed bitrate significantly)."
So it's better to sharpen during playback than in the encode, if you want to sharpen.

[NikosD]

Guys, if someone sells his kidney in the black market in order to buy a new RTX card, please run DXVA Checker in order to check features and performance and share this info with us.

Also, I'm interested in the release month of 2050 (Ti) and if someone knows if 2050/2060 will have Tensor and Ray Tracing cores inside like 2070 and above.

[Zetti]

Are you sure 2050/2060 is planned??

[wanezhiling]

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=More-Vega-20-Enablement-Linux
- Support for the 2nd UVD instance on Vega 20 (previously mentioned on Phoronix, there will be two UVDs with Vega 20).

[NikosD]

Crazy.

Probably a 2xGPU implementation.

[foobar2000]

dxva with hdr tone mapping at the same time, will this cause frame drop?

[huhn]

i don't see a reason why DXVA should do that.

[NikosD]

Don't worry, AMD is not sentenced to death yet, I will buy a Ryzen 5 2400G soon.It's been just seven months (!) but did you buy that Ryzen 5 2400G ?

I was looking at your results of your Ryzen 5 2500U with slow single channel DDR4-2133 MHz RAM and they were disappointing.

I wonder if desktop version of VCN 1.0 inside an APU (Raven Ridge) has changed anything regarding features and especially performance compared to laptops.

[wanezhiling]

No i didn't.
Others tested 2400G with dual channel DDR4-2400, no luck.

[huhn]

could be the same type of 4.4:4 as AVC lossless only.

[NikosD]

nVidia, by adding VP9 12bit, H.264 8K and HEVC 444, even if it's only for lossless, has the most fully featured hardware decoder ever.

But it's still missing AV1 which YouTube has already started leveraging in order to convert everything.

I think AV1 is going to replace VP9 for YouTube.

[huhn]

while AV1 will accomplish VP9 one day well at least it should do that.
the AV1 encoder has to get optimise i mean just remember the release of HEVC the image quality was not that great to say it friendly so this will take a couple of months-years.

VP9 will not leave us anytime soon we still don't have full support on all mainstream GPUs yet.

and we simply don't know about AV1 support for turing or let me say it this way i can't remember nvidia saying the 960 will support VP9. but i doubt it it's just to early.

[mariner]

Greetings.

Quick impression after short test of an entry level low power HD620 system running w7: handles 4k well, but struggles with 8k. The 8KHEVC10 (4in1) clip wouldn't play in DXVA Checker. As this is my first x64 system, appreciate some advice in setting the system properly for video playback evaluation:

1. Is it still necessary to run DirectX End-User Runtimes (June 2010)?
2. Where can I find x64 version of proppage.dll and evrprop.dll? And how to get them registered?
3. How to set up LAV video filter to take advantage of the HD620?
4. Any other free decoders available for testing?
5. Should video size be set to native or size of display monitor when running playback performance in DXVA Checker?
6. How to set up HDR on w7?
7. Other tips?

Many thanks and best regards,

[clsid]

3. Select DXVA2 native
6. That is not supported on W7 with Intel GPU

[NikosD]

1. Is it still necessary to run DirectX End-User Runtimes (June 2010)?
Good question.
I always do this although I don't know if it's actually necessary.
2. Where can I find x64 version of proppage.dll and evrprop.dll? And how to get them registered?
Never used them. Where are they useful to?
3. How to set up LAV video filter to take advantage of the HD620?
Like clsid said, use DXVA2 native for best performance.
4. Any other free decoders available for testing?
If you want DirectShow decoders like LAV filters, I think MPC-BE developers are still developing stand-alone DS filters you could try.
If you want complete players, I would suggest PotPlayer and maybe VLC.
5. Should video size be set to native or size of display monitor when running playback performance in DXVA Checker?
In my performance tests I always use a fixed resolution for playback performance regardless of the original resolution of the source.
This resolution is 1280x720.
6. How to set up HDR on w7?
I think clsid is right, Win 7 doesn't support HDR.
7. Other tips?
Well, I can't see the screenshot posted above, but can you take a look of the results that others users have already tested in my collection of test video clips regarding 4K and 8K and tell me what is your difference ?

I have all of them gathered together for easy comparison, just find the link in the initial post of this thread.

Can you give me full specs of your system ? (RAM, CPU, PC/LAPTOP model etc.)

[mariner]

Greetings clsid and Nikos, thanks for the kind reply.

1. If my memory is correct proppage allows you to see the pin properties in graphedit, while evrprop displays various info of the evr renderer in use. The copies I have are 32bit, what's the procedure for registering them? Are there 64bit version available?

2. LAV filters:
(a) Is VP9 supported? As the default has it un ticked.
(b) Isn't quicksync the native HD620 DXVA decoder? When selected, tt seems LAV falls back to CPU decoding. Why?
(c) Does one lose hardware deinterlacing capability when DXVA2 Native is selected?

3. 8k video test
(a) 8k HEVC10 is problematic. Crashed DXVA Checker , and wouldn't play in mpc if dxva enabled.
(b) 8k VP9profile2 not tested. Test samples welcome.
(c) 8k HEVC8 and VP9 seems well behaved in DXVA checker, but not mpc.

4. Test system is i7 7500u/HD620/16GB DDR3 RAM/w7x64. As the graphics drivers is a hacked version of 4680, what sort of artifacts/issues could one come across?

Hope these cut and paste jobs are intelligible. Suggestion and comments most welcome.

[clsid]

Yes, VP9 is supported.
QuickSync uses the GPU the same way as DXVA. QuickSync option in LAV is deprecated and does not support HEVC and VP9. Don't use it!
I doubt you have a 8k screen, so just forget about 8k.

[NikosD]

2. LAV filters:
(a) Is VP9 supported? As the default has it un ticked.
(b) Isn't quicksync the native HD620 DXVA decoder? When selected, tt seems LAV falls back to CPU decoding. Why?
(c) Does one lose hardware deinterlacing capability when DXVA2 Native is selected?

VP9 is supported by both hardware and software but not for QuickSync.

The developer of QS is egur who has left doom9 years ago and nobody ever developed further his work.
So QS supports only MPEG2, VC-1/WMV3, H.264.

Regarding hardware deinterlacing, I think the opposite is true.
When you leverage DXVA native, hardware deinterlacing is automatically used.

3. 8k video test
(a) 8k HEVC10 is problematic. Crashed DXVA Checker , and wouldn't play in mpc if dxva enabled.
(b) 8k VP9profile2 not tested. Test samples welcome.
(c) 8k HEVC8 and VP9 seems well behaved in DXVA checker, but not mpc.

I don't have HD 6xx iGPU but maybe Win 7 and hacked driver could cause all these problems.
I was trying to find out VP9 10bit samples with no luck.
Try YouTube, if you manage to get the stream of VP9 profile 2.

Did you try any other player ? (MPC-BE, PotPlayer, VLC)

I would definitely upgrade my system to Windows 10 with proper drivers, maybe Win 7 is too old for these formats.

Hope these cut and paste jobs are intelligible. Suggestion and comments most welcome.

None of your screenshots are visible.

Doom9, like all forums actually, is very slow approving attachments like these.

We always use external image servers like my favorite postimages.org

[mariner]

8k mpc playback.

While DXVA checker suggested these 8k clips are well behaved, mpc tells a different story. What's going on?

[NikosD]

By releasing the new Turing Tesla T4, we learned today that fixed function decoder and encoder of Turing cards - even gaming cards obviously - besides having many new features could be very fast too.

Tesla T4 delivers breakthrough performance for AI video applications, with dedicated hardware transcoding engines that bring twice the decoding performance of prior-generation GPUs.

T4 can decode up to 38 full-HD video streams, making it easy to integrate scalable deep learning into video pipelines to deliver innovative, smart video services.

[Asmodian]

It seems like that hardware decoder is for AI to be able to use almost any video for training data?!? That is pretty impressive, I hope (and assume) consumer cards have the same decoder. :)

[nevcairiel]

It would probably not be too hard for them to just double up on decoder hardware specifically for such a specialized card. But another week and we'll possibly know either way.

[Klaus1189]

8k mpc playback.

While DXVA checker suggested these 8k clips are well behaved, mpc tells a different story. What's going on?


None of your screenshots are visible.

Doom9, like all forums actually, is very slow approving attachments like these.


Like NikosD already pointed out, we cannot open your files.
Do it like that:
I created a screenshot (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B-R1h4cfhP8HFpmqqc-wjq8UzggMKCyy/view?usp=sharing), here you can see I can not open your files

[littleD]

8k mpc playback.

While DXVA checker suggested these 8k clips are well behaved, mpc tells a different story. What's going on?Win10 hd620 latest drivers

latest mpc hc dxva2 native in lav
4k 10bit hdr 60fps plays fluently
8k 8bit 24 fps plays fluently but its on the edge
8k 8bit 60 fps is slow (not so much, but visible desync with audio)

Dxva cb or d3d11 is slow with intel and lav filters so do not use those options

but using win10 Movies and Tv app i get
8k 8bit 60fp fluently wit rare/occasional glitch. This app uses d3d11 mft filter



I cannot download HDR files from Youtube, only 8k 8bit. Is this hdr real at all? Does chrome cheat or changing metadata or what.

[nevcairiel]

A fully optimized D3D11 video playback chain is the most efficient you can get on a PC. Unfortunately DirectShow is too old to really support that out of the box. You might be able to achieve some improvements using D3D11 native in LAV Video with madVR, but madVR internally still uses D3D9 a lot, so that loses a bit of the efficiency again there, because the image needs to be transfered from D3D11 to D3D9 again.

[NikosD]

I cannot download HDR files from Youtube, only 8k 8bit. Is this hdr real at all? Does chrome cheat or changing metadata or what.

It seems that nobody can.

But they are real for sure at least for 4K, because my 4K HDR10 AndroidTV plays them fine as HDR clips using YouTube with real and obvious difference from 8bit non HDR clips.

@nevcairiel
Good post.

[wanezhiling]

https://communities.intel.com/thread/128950
I hate intel..:devil:

[nevcairiel]

You can definitely download 4K HDR streams with youtube-dl. Just 8K seems to be either hiding or in fact only be available in 8-bit SDR.

[littleD]

Thanks nevcairiel for this clarifications. Since almost all praise d3d11 then it must be intel drivers or hardware shortcoming. I will try madvr with some fast downscaling algorithm and see results ;) Also Madvr gives proper colors with hdr on laptop screen. Evr custom not :/

my last test with mpc
8k 10bit hdr 24 fps file is fluid in playback on intel hd620
Sample from vimeo


EDIT:

How about to make mpc hc shader: rec. 2020 >> 709 (HD) or whatever renderer could expect???
Just to correctly display colours in EVR Custom?

[nevcairiel]

D3D11 is definitely slower right now if you use it without madVR, because that results in D3D11 copy-back, which is for some reason a tad bit slower then DXVA2 copy-back even. There are some technical reasons for it being slower then DXVA2 copy-back, but I didn't expect them to have such a huge impact - but I guess an Intel iGPU which uses system memory feels it the most.

[mariner]

A fully optimized D3D11 video playback chain is the most efficient you can get on a PC. Unfortunately DirectShow is too old to really support that out of the box. You might be able to achieve some improvements using D3D11 native in LAV Video with madVR, but madVR internally still uses D3D9 a lot, so that loses a bit of the efficiency again there, because the image needs to be transfered from D3D11 to D3D9 again.

Greetings nevcairel.

Been testing hevd clips with HD620 in w10:

1. When D3D11 option is selected in LAV filters, mpc reports dxva not in use, and cpu usage hits 100%.

2. The D3D11 option is not available in mpc's internal LAV filters.

Are these expected behavior?

Many thanks and best regards,

[huhn]

try it again with this version: https://github.com/clsid2/mpc-hc/releases

[alex1399]

The win10 Movies and Tv app isn't using D3D11 mft filter but some sort of mvd filter stuff called msmpeg2vdec.dll as shown in the filter chain by GraphStudioNext. The image quality is terrible. That's why it is so fast.

No, the crappy rendering stuff is out of the question to affect the decode stuff. MS made something too cheap to make it fast.

[huhn]

a decoder for a modern codec should not show any difference in image quality what give you the idea the decoder is the reason for the lowered quality?

[littleD]

The win10 Movies and Tv app isn't using D3D11 mft filter but some sort of mvd filter stuff called msmpeg2vdec.dll as shown in the filter chain by GraphStudioNext. The image quality is terrible. That's why it is so fast.

No, the crappy rendering stuff is out of the question to affect the decode stuff. MS made something too cheap to make it fast.C'mon GSN cannot use media transform, can it?

Edit:
Dxvachecker shows some hints. In d3d11 decoding benchmark, both lavfilters and windows decoder are equally fast. But in playback benchmark, lav filters use 20% video engine while mt decoder over 80%. Such situation gives lower framerate in mphc than in windows app. Im sure lav outputs best quality possible. But comparing things and drawing conclusions aren't bad right? According to new hardware monitor in newest win10, the shared graphic memory is saturated when d3d11 enabled and 8k video played. Shared Graphic ram is full filled with some data. Maybe transfer between small GPU Ram and shared System memory is very costly. Maybe nevcairiel can lower memory requirements or use some texture compression to speed up things at 8k? I dont know where it comes from but win10 shows shared 4GB gpu memory on intel. During mft 8k decoding its half filled.

[foxyshadis]

Like NikosD already pointed out, we cannot open your files.
Do it like that:
I created a screenshot (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B-R1h4cfhP8HFpmqqc-wjq8UzggMKCyy/view?usp=sharing), here you can see I can not open your files

I really wish someone would report these attachment posts, even if it's not the OP. It's not the workflow I would have chosen, but it's the only one I have until I have time to browse over the weekends.

[pirlouy]

Maybe this subforum needs another moderator, someone well-recognised and quite active like nevcairiel or clsid for example ?

[nevcairiel]

No thanks :p

[NikosD]

Actually, this thread doesn't need a moderator.

It's self moderated by the members writing here and the OP does a little moderation, like in all threads.

Please, don't try to make things look like complicated.

[pirlouy]

Like if your thread was the subforum. :rolleyes:
It was a general statement about screenshot approval.

[mariner]

8K playback on w10: MTV vs DXVA Checker vs MPC

Test system: Stock i7 7500u/HD620/16GB DDR3 1600 RAM/2k display
OS: w10.1803.285, pagefile disabled.

1. While HD620 can decode 8K HEVC10bit in hardware, MTV plays the 59fps 4in1 clip in slow motion, while MPC and Potplayer cannot display the video. What does the creator of the clip use for playback?

2. The 8K HEVC8bit LondonEye test clip is too short to allow any meaningful conclusion drawn. Longer samples most welcome.

3. 8K VP9 8bits: Test sample used Yellowstone is a randomly selected 8k 59fps yt clip (those numbered 272).
(a) MTV: Plays smoothly, but there could be a hint of video lag at the end. Clip too short to be conclusive. Is there a way to check frame rate in MTV?

(b) DXVA Checker:
(i) Playback performance benchmark comes in lower that playback benchmark. It is also 1/3 slower than w7's benchmark.
(ii) While playback is smooth for both LAV filters and MF decoder, video soon lags behind audio. LAV actually outperforms MF here.
(iii) Does this mean a different decoder unidentified by DXVA Checker is used by MTV for playback?

(c) MPC, POT and VLC; Can't handle any 8K clip. VLC suffers from decoding artifacts.

4. Suggestions to tweak the system for better performance most welcome.

[Klaus1189]

I really wish someone would report these attachment posts, even if it's not the OP. It's not the workflow I would have chosen, but it's the only one I have until I have time to browse over the weekends.

I don't understand, did I something wrong? :scared:
But I can't watch the attachments, and
again from @mariner, still pending ...

@mariner
we can't open your uploaded files, use any other file hoster, like google drive or whatever ...

Like NikosD already pointed out, we cannot open your files.
Do it like that:
I created a screenshot (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B-R1h4cfhP8HFpmqqc-wjq8UzggMKCyy/view?usp=sharing), here you can see I can not open your files

click on red "screenshot"

[NikosD]

We can't see ANY of your screenshots posted in this thread, due to the way you keep on posting them.

Please DELETE EVERY SCREENSHOT you have already uploaded in your last few posts and stop ignoring our comments regarding your screenshots and use an external image hoster.

Thank you.

I don't understand, did I something wrong? :scared:

Of course not.

He wasn't referring to you.

[littleD]

8K playback on w10: MTV vs DXVA Checker vs MPC

Test system: Stock i7 7500u/HD620/16GB DDR3 1600 RAM/2k display
OS: w10.1803.285, pagefile disabled.

1. While HD620 can decode 8K HEVC10bit in hardware, MTV plays the 59fps 4in1 clip in slow motion, while MPC and Potplayer cannot display the video. What does the creator of the clip use for playback?

2. The 8K HEVC8bit LondonEye test clip is too short to allow any meaningful conclusion drawn. Longer samples most welcome.

3. 8K VP9 8bits: Test sample used Yellowstone is a randomly selected 8k 59fps yt clip (those numbered 272).
(a) MTV: Plays smoothly, but there could be a hint of video lag at the end. Clip too short to be conclusive. Is there a way to check frame rate in MTV?

(b) DXVA Checker:
(i) Playback performance benchmark comes in lower that playback benchmark. It is also 1/3 slower than w7's benchmark.
(ii) While playback is smooth for both LAV filters and MF decoder, video soon lags behind audio. LAV actually outperforms MF here.
(iii) Does this mean a different decoder unidentified by DXVA Checker is used by MTV for playback?

(c) MPC, POT and VLC; Can't handle any 8K clip. VLC suffers from decoding artifacts.

4. Suggestions to tweak the system for better performance most welcome.
Mariner, Mpchc/lav filters cannot cope with 8k 60 fps files with intel hardware, just take it. I believe it is close though. MPC HC shows picture, just wait long enough, sometime picture appears after a while.
MTV can play 8k 60 fps, but it plays just that framerate with no headroom. So you can expect occasional glitches when system got busy with something.

[NikosD]

8k mpc playback.

While DXVA checker suggested these 8k clips are well behaved, mpc tells a different story. What's going on?
The explanation could be easier than it looks like so far.

DXVA Checker uses EVR and MPC uses EVR-CP by default IIRC.
But EVR-CP is taxing a lot more Intel's iGPU than vanilla EVR.

Try vanilla EVR using MPC and tell us your results without posting screenshots.

[littleD]

Yes, you are right. For me, Lav filters and mpc hc vanila evr plays 8k 60 fps 8bit fluid on intel. I didnt take it into consideration. Virtual shared memory was 60% in use so safe margin.

[NikosD]

8K playback on w10: MTV vs DXVA Checker vs MPC

Test system: Stock i7 7500u/HD620/16GB DDR3 1600 RAM/2k display
OS: w10.1803.285, pagefile disabled.

1) Since you have kept your hardware the same moving from Win 7 to Win 10, what is the difference between these two Windows versions regarding performance on 4K and 8K clips ?

Both HEVC and VP9 and both playback and decoding performance.

2) Your RAM configuration is slow DDR3 1600 MHz and even if it's dual channel, still can't compete with dual DDR4 2400 MHz, obviously.

This could be important for Intel's iGPU performance.

Probably @littleD has a desktop platform with dual DDR4.

3) Did you do a clean install of Win 10 by formatting your disk or just an upgrade over Win 7 ?

[mariner]

More 8kVP9 testing with something more suitable: gaming clips with gunshots and dialogue.
Sample links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcvmrTsZuDM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng0maaop--w

1. MTV and Edge: Both clips maintained a/v sync till the end, although a couple of frames of video delay was introduced by MTV. Edge, however, was able to play these clips with zero latency, and perhaps a tad more fluidity. Simply amazing, wonder if any downsizing is done. Would be great if there's a way to check the frame rate.

2. DXVA Checker: Playback frame rate again came in below 60, and a/v was clearly out of sync. Once again LAV outperformed MF decoder here suffering less video lag. Does anyone know if the MF decoder is used by MTV and Edge?

3. MPC: At the suggestion of Nikos and LittleD, plain vanilla EVR was used for testing. But result was just as poor.

4. Graphedit: Was not able to get DXVA working. CPU usage stayed in the 60s. Anyone?

Based on these limited test results, HD620 is inadequate to support DS playback of 8K. Wonder if the new models are better? On the other hand, MTV and Edge seem optimized for 8KVP9 playback, although 8kHEVC remains out of reach.

More screen caps for your enjoyment.

[mariner]

Greetings Nikos,
1. Both systems are clean install, using default settings.
2. Benchmarks are more or less on par on both systems, with the exception of playback performance benchmark. Otherwise, the main draw of w10 appears to be MTV and Edge playback of 8KVP9. The w7 system will be tested with different drivers to see if there's any improvement.
3. It's be good if members with success, especially with these cheap HD620, could kindly share there set-up, test samples and playback settings.

Many thank and best regards,

[mariner]

try it again with this version: https://github.com/clsid2/mpc-hc/releases

Thanks for the kind reply, huhn.

8K playback appears to be worse using D3D11. Is this expected?

Many thanks and best regards,

[NikosD]

@mariner

Interesting results.

1) Did you use Edge for offline playback of the clips ?

Because IIRC YouTube doesn't provide such resolutions and high FPS for any browser besides Chrome.

Edge is probably using the same MFT decoder like MTV as a Microsoft product.

2) Can you try to oveclock your iGPU only ? (Not the CPU)
It's very easy using BIOS if it has this option.

The GPU clock is being used by the VPU too (QuickSync ASIC)

[mariner]

1. Edge browser. 0 dropped frames in 20min of 8k60p yt clip. Too good to be true?
2. Will likely brick the system.

[clsid]

Does anyone know if the MF decoder is used by MTV and EdgeYes it is.
8K playback appears to be worse using D3D11. Is this expected?Yes. It should also only be used in combination with Madvr, as then it can switch to native mode. Once Madvr gets a full D3D11 rendering chain, D3D11 decoding will probably get equal/better performance compared to DXVA2 native.

Another interesting test would be the performance impact of the resizer setting for EVR-CP. Test with 4k in that case.

[mariner]

Yes it is.
Yes. It should also only be used in combination with Madvr, as then it can switch to native mode. Once Madvr gets a full D3D11 rendering chain, D3D11 decoding will probably get equal/better performance compared to DXVA2 native.

Another interesting test would be the performance impact of the resizer setting for EVR-CP. Test with 4k in that case.

Thanks for the kind reply, clsid.

1. MF under performs when used in DXVA Checker, while the reverse is usually the case for other filters. Do you know why?
2. When LAV's D3D11 option is elected, MPC indicates DXVA not in use, and CPU usage hits the roof. So D3D11 does not use HW decoding?
3. Would D3D11/madvr outperform native DXVA2 in HD620?
4. Can't get LAV to perform HW decoding in Graphedit. Can you help?
5.Any step by step instruction on changing resize setting for EVR-CP?
Many thanks and best regards,

[clsid]

1. Don't know.
2. Not in that case.
3. Maybe in future. Don't expect any significant difference.
4. That is because the system default renderer is VMR-7. Construct the entire graph manually, and use EVR as renderer.
5. MPC-HC options > playback > output > resizer

[mariner]

Thanks for the kind reply clsid.
EVR is used in the filter chain. See my last post on previous page.

[mariner]

...
4. That is because the system default renderer is VMR-7. Construct the entire graph manually, and use EVR as renderer.
...

EVR was in used when CPU usage hits the roof. See srceen cap previous post.

Many thanks and best regards,

[clsid]

If it works with 4k then you are doing things correctly. If it only doesn't work with 8k60, then you should just give up. It don't understand why you even want to play 8k when your screen is just 2k.

[nevcairiel]

8K requires a 64bit Player. Make sure to use that.

[mariner]

8K requires a 64bit Player. Make sure to use that.

Thanks for the kind reply nevcairiel.

1. Graphedit is taken from GRMSDKX iso. Is there a way to check if these are x64? Or is there a w10 version?
2. Graphedit Studio x64 has similar problem.
3. Even 4k HEVC clip have CPU usage hitting the 90s. But 4K AVC using MS decoder is fine.
4. LAV filter is well behaved in MPC. CPU usage stays in the teens with 8k video.
5. Test system is HD620.

Appreciate if you could kindly assist.
Many thanks and best regards,

[clsid]

Use GraphStudioNext x64. And like I said before, you must manually insert all filters (LAV Splitter Source + LAV Video + EVR).

[NikosD]

New updated CPU results for LAV, Lentoid and Microsoft's H.265 decoder

System:
Win 10 x64 (10586) - Core i7-4790 - iGPU HD4600@1.5GHz - v.4326

Decoders:
LAV x64/x86 0.67.3
Lentoid x64/x86 2.1.0.0
Microsoft HEVC decoder build 10586

Comments:


1) Lentoid added 10 bit decoding with 8bit output (I420).
MS HEVC decoders 10bit decoding uses 8bit output too (NV12)

2) Lentoid x86 keeps running faster than LAV x86 by a huge margin and it's faster than MS HEVC x86 too.

3) Lentoid x64 is very close to LAV x64 and generally faster but there are strong fluctuations in the results, so sometimes it's difficult to measure both decoders.

4) The real surprise is MS HEVC x64 which is faster than anything, but only for 1080p.
In the first clip, it has some problems, it even crashes DXVA Checker when GPU acceleration is used.

But for all the other 1080p clips is definitely faster.
On the other hand, MS HEVC decoders are slow on 2160p clips and especially 10bit clips

It seems - most of the times - that whenever each decoder manages to utilize more CPU usage, it ends first in the specific clip.

It's been only almost 3 years (!) since my latest CPU evaluation of HEVC decoding, but since I've already updated my Windows 10 x64 October 2018 on an older machine by a clean install, I did a few tests.

Lentoid have recently released v2.2.0.0 r6555 and I did a very small comparison using my old Core 2 Duo (SSE4.1) vs latest LAV 0.72.0-15 and MS HEVC free extensions.


Comments:

LAV x64 is the fastest CPU decoder for HEVC.
But very close to it are both MS HEVC and Lentoid x86 (!)

Lentoid x64 is slower than Lentoid x86 (!!)

LAV x86 is awfully slow.

MS HEVC is only x64 (at least on my x64 system)

So, if you are using x64 system and CPU HEVC decoding, stick to LAV x64

If you - for some reason - are still using a x86 system, grab immediately Lentoid from here:
http://www.xhevc.com/en/downloads/downloadCenter.jsp

But the 10bit output is still I420 for Lentoid.

[alex1399]

Does the faster the CPU decoder for HEVC mean the lower the CPU loading are for HEVC with given frame-rate playback? What could be the best 720p 23fps HEVC software decoder for a poor mans' tablet? At first I thought the TV & Movie App given the native MS HEVC decoder, but the player couldn't decode closed captioning and subtitle.

[NikosD]

Yes, the faster decoder means lower CPU utilization for a given frame rate.

Regarding a budget tablet, since I owe one, I would definitely prefer a HW decoder which is inside every mobile device available.

Do you have a Windows mobile tablet ?

Mine is Android but I think you could find a player capable of HW decoding and all of the stuff that you mention.

[alex1399]

I'm afraid that the only windows mobile tablet I own doesn't have the capability to hardware decode hevc contents by its amd a6 micro 6500t apu with radeon r4 graphic. The Lentoid decoder is quite fast, but the color characteristic, aspect ratio and color range are not passed correctly. Fortunately, the render guessed right to display it in limited color range without washed color.

[littleD]

I have installed win 10 update, installed new intel drivers.

Intel drivers: Lower version of opencl with less extensions, no vulkan or cannot be detected. Rest is same on laptop for the time being

EDIT:
But don't worry. After reboot and install drivers AGAIN, all driver components are fresh and in place.

[aufkrawall]

Does D3D11VA not support HEVC 12 bit? It works with CUDA/NVDEC, but I'm not aware of any program utilizing D3D11VA that would work with it.
I haven't tested Win 10 video app, as I certainly won't pay a single buck to purchase HEVC support for it (mandatory with Win 10 1809).

[nevcairiel]

The official DXVA specification only goes up to HEVC Main10. It may work, but its not documented, and it doesn't advertise a > 10-bit output format, as far as I'm aware.
Luckily, noone uses 12-bit for anything real.

[aufkrawall]

:thanks:
Isn't it missing a problem for Dolby Vision content?

[NikosD]

I haven't tested Win 10 video app, as I certainly won't pay a single buck to purchase HEVC support for it (mandatory with Win 10 1809).
HEVC support is not included in Win 10, but you can download MS HEVC codec for free from MS Store.

[sneaker_ger]

:thanks:
Isn't it missing a problem for Dolby Vision content?
So far(*) Dolby Vision seems to rely on HEVC 10 bit. 2 bits may be added by the Dolby Vision layer.


(*) Talking about content you can actually buy as a consumer.

[aufkrawall]

HEVC support is not included in Win 10, but you can download MS HEVC codec for free from MS Store.
That's the point: It's not free anymore.

So far(*) Dolby Vision seems to rely on HEVC 10 bit. 2 bits may be added by the Dolby Vision layer.


(*) Talking about content you can actually buy as a consumer.
Thanks.

[huhn]

so does edge use this codec or not?

if edge needs this to play HEVC video in the browser than the number of edge user will be even lower...

[nevcairiel]

Which online streaming service uses HEVC? Netflix has its own app that people use, anything else?

[huhn]

isn't edge able to stream netflix unlike other browser.

but now when you said it HEVC didn't really take off.

[Crimson Wolf]

That's the point: It's not free anymore.


Thanks.

I distinctly remember the store app updating the HEVC codec from time to time. Are you saying they retroactively removed it and now I have to pay for it? I searched for HEVC and I see the price, yet I can play HEVC fine on my CPU since my GPU does not support hardware decoding.


https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-decode-gpu-support-matrix

If you try clicking on https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/hevc-video-extension/9n4wgh0z6vhq does it still say FREE or is there a price now from this link?

[nevcairiel]

It remains free for you if you had it previously installed, or have an old Windows install. Only brand new systems have to pay it, and its only one buck.
Presumably that helps to avoid additional licensing fees from HEVC Advance, because they stipulate that you don't have to pay for software decoders if they are not shipped with the device.

The hardware plugin Crimson Wolf linked above should remain free, but its only hardware decoding. Which should be enough for Netflix I reckon, since it requires modern hardware anyway.

[Crimson Wolf]

Ok, then what is aufkrawall talking about then? He talks about CUDA/NVDEC support so obviously he has some hardware supported GPU installed. He can just get the free plugin?

[aufkrawall]

You are right, the hardware decoding app is still for free.
However, it's not shown in the store's search.

The Windows 10 video app surprisingly uses hardware decoding for HEVC 12 bit video.

[el Filou]

Where do you find (commercial) 12-bit HEVC content?

[aufkrawall]

Didn't we just talk about that?

[nevcairiel]

Basically the answer is, you don't. Its not really used.

[el Filou]

OK, apologies for expressing myself badly.
What I meant is: how do you test that?
The Windows 10 video app surprisingly uses hardware decoding for HEVC 12 bit video.A google search for "hevc 12 bit sample" or "hevc 12 bit demo" or whatever doesn't give me any downloadable results. Did you encode a 12 bit file yourself just to test?

[huhn]

there are files out there but if you really want to test it you better encode it yourself.

unlike 10 bit x264 which is very useful 12 bit x265 doesn't look promising at all.

[aufkrawall]

I simply used Handbrake Nightly, dunno if the stable version already offers x265 12 bit.
But beware, there seems to be some .net Framework issue with the Nightly, crashing the whole UI rendering of Windows. You might wanna avoid that if you don't like hard resets.
Linux gtk-git version works fine.

Edit: 12 bit is already in the stable version.

[NikosD]

Is there anyone still using a Skylake CPU ?

I tried using a Core i5 6500 with VP9 DXVA2 and LAV filters but it keeps falling back to software decoding.

Is VP9 DXVA2 still usable for Skylake ?

[aufkrawall]

I don't think VP9 was ever supported by Skylake GPU.

[NikosD]

Go back in this thread at around December 2015 to see benchmark results of Yups running Win 10 on Core i7 6700K using LAV filters and DXVA Checker.

[wanezhiling]

https://www.apple.com/macbook-air/specs/
Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors and:

One external display with 5120-by-2880 resolution at up to 60Hz

Up to two external displays with 4096-by-2304 resolution at up to 60Hz
UHD Graphics 617 (i5-8210Y) is most likely equipped with new Gen10(maybe Gen11, Icelake) display controller which supports higher resolution.

[littleD]

Not sure if that have been mentioned, but after latest win 10 update and installing newest intel drivers, i get HDR to SDR mapping in Movies and TV app. Colors look quite fresh ant not washed out anymore. I was struggling with driver installation but it was worth it. What is strange, now i have three ways to watch HDR content on SDR laptop display: by MPC HC and Madvr, by Tv and Movies app and by MPC HC BE. All three players give bit different output, color saturation and brightness/white level.

[wanezhiling]

https://i.postimg.cc/rwmT01nN/100659fxg1ihoghop55qs1.png

https://i.postimg.cc/T2SZw88Q/225002b76zs7q6btsbz8fs.jpg
much worse than pascal..

only 300 MHz??

[huhn]

300 mhz would be a good sign if it wouldn't be dropping frames.

[Asmodian]

Adaptive? Optimal Power? When I get back I home I will test too.

[NikosD]

...much worse than pascal..

only 300 MHz?? Regarding features, the driver still misses H.264 8K.
Regarding speed, VP9 8bit definitely can't much the 38 FHD simultaneously decoded streams advertised for Turing Tesla T4 :)
The decoded dropped frames are too many, but the decoding clock is too low as well.

Maybe someone could download the 8K60fps VP9 clip and try that in benchmark (full speed) mode.

The issue could be just a wrong driver's setting from nVidia.

[nevcairiel]

That youtube video runs perfect on my 2080 Ti, but my GPU never clocks that low because I have 3 screens connected (one of which is 144Hz) - which keeps idle clocks higher. Video Engine load 75%-80%~
Only one or two drops at the start of playback, nothing otherwise.

Its this one, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ (format 272, 8K VP9)

LAV DXVA2 (Native) Decode Performance
Avg 75.6 FPS (didn't DXVA checker use to show min/max fps?)

[NikosD]

Its this one, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ (format 272, 8K VP9)

LAV DXVA2 (Native) Decode Performance
Avg 75.6 FPS (didn't DXVA checker use to show min/max fps?)I have reported the issue of missing min/max fps to DXVA Checker's developer a month ago and he is going to put it again in the next version.
I have a beta in my hands, showing min/max fps.

For VP9 8K60fps clip the average of 76fps is good but not far away of the real-time decoding.

What is the performance of a Pascal (any) card on the same clip ?

[wanezhiling]

1050ti 68fps
uhd620 64fps

[NikosD]

1050ti 68fps
uhd620 64fpsA difference of around ~10% could be just the clock, so the VP9 HW decoder of Turing and Pascal is probably the same.
Thanks.

[Zetti]

Microsoft Launches Free AV1 Video Codec for Windows 10

https://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-launches-free-av1-video-codec-for-windows-10-523704.shtml

[NikosD]

To be honest, the main problem of Turing cards and especially 2080 Ti, is not the video decoder performance or drivers.

It's the meaningless selling point of RTX technology, completely useless right now and unfortunately even when games come with RTX support, they are going to run at 60fps only for resolutions of 1080p and below.

What's the point of giving 1500€ to run games at 1080p ?

The value for money of Turing cards is the worst ever for any card I remember of.

And above all these, the failure rate of 2080 Ti cards is unprecedented.

They just die after a few working weeks and a lot of times even the replacement just dies too!

This is simply tragedy...

[Manni]

To be honest, the main problem of Turing cards and especially 2080 Ti, is not the video decoder performance or drivers.

It's the meaningless selling point of RTX technology, completely useless right now and unfortunately even when games come with RTX support, they are going to run at 60fps only for resolutions of 1080p and below.

What's the point of giving 1500€ to run games at 1080p ?

The value for money of Turing cards is the worst ever for any card I remember of.

And above all these, the failure rate of 2080 Ti cards is unprecedented.

They just die after a few working weeks and a lot of times even the replacement just dies too!

This is simply tragedy...

I'm glad I passed on the 2080ti due to the lack of HDMI 2.1 and the 14nm process. Waiting for the next gen happily with my 1080ti in the meantime.

Do you have a link to the info re failure rates? I have no interest in the current gen but I do plan to get the next gen when they offer a HDMI 2.1 model with 7nm process. I agree the price is a rip-off, but given the quality you get with MadVR and the fact that video processors costing three or four times as much don't give that quality, I can still justify putting that kind of money in a GPU. I sure wouldn't if it was only for gaming.

I'm hoping that Madshi will, at some point, exploit the new Tensor Cores in the RTX models. When that happens, it will become even more justified, at least for my use. I certainly won't buy a new GPU without Turing to replace my 1080ti, if only just for that probable MadVR capability to make the most of the new technology in the short/mid term.

EDIT: no worries, found a link: https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/nvidias-flagship-rtx-2080-ti-graphics-cards-are-failing-more-than-they-should
EDIT2: and another one with actual numbers: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nvidia-rtx-2080-ti-founders-issues/
Doesn't seem as bad as you say, especially if you avoid the FE, which I would never buy anyway (I usually buy EVGA for nVida)...

[Zetti]

Is GTX 1100 series still not on the way??

I hope because GTX 1000 series is 2 years old.

[huhn]

the 2000 series is out

[Zetti]

Yes RTX 2000 series is out but the price is too high.

[nevcairiel]

Yes RTX 2000 series is out but the price is too high.

Why would you think t here would be a 11 series if they went straight to 20? :)

[huhn]

that doesn'T change that the new cards are out if you like the new prices or not.

[Zetti]

Why would you think t here would be a 11 series if they went straight to 20? :)
I have seen news articles about both GTX 1100 Series and RTX 2000 Series will be released.

RTX 2000 Series is released, but i still waiting on GTX 1100 Series.

[NikosD]

Microsoft Launches Free AV1 Video Codec for Windows 10

https://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-launches-free-av1-video-codec-for-windows-10-523704.shtmlPlease take a look here for a quick benchmark:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1857315

[nevcairiel]

RTX 2000 Series is released, but i still waiting on GTX 1100 Series.

There is no 11 series. Before the release, a lot of people were speculating if it would be 11 or 20. 20 won. There were never any hints that both would exist.

[Zetti]

Ok thanks for info.

[aufkrawall]

libdav1d is a nice improvement for AV1 decoding, already works fine for me for the YouTube testvideos with lower CPU load than libaom or the Microsoft decoder.

[NikosD]

One of the worst client humiliation and disrespect coming from nVidia of course...Who else ? (besides Intel)
https://www.techspot.com/news/77445-nvidia-addresses-failing-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-cards.html

[aufkrawall]

I want my own personal ranting thread too. :)

[NikosD]

Oh, nonsense.

I was just replying to Manni using words of TechSpot's article.
Nothing more and nothing less.

[vanden]

Hello,

Is there a recent processor test (Ryzen & Threadripper (Zen, Zen +), Coffee Lake & Coffee Lake Refresh) in Software (CPU) mode ?

And sorry (if it's a few pages before) I did not have the courage to read the 123 pages ...

[NikosD]

Hello,



Is there a recent processor test (Ryzen & Threadripper (Zen, Zen +), Coffee Lake & Coffee Lake Refresh) in Software (CPU) mode ?



And sorry (if it's a few pages before) I did not have the courage to read the 123 pages ... No, there isn't.
For mainly two reasons:

1) I don't own such hardware

2) Most of the people use hardware acceleration for decoding.

BTW, speaking of HW acceleration, Intel's latest Gen11 iGPU combined with Sunny Cove architecture (actual implementation will probably be called Ice Lake) on 2019 will include parallel decoders for multi-stream concurrent decoding or faster one stream decoding.

From anandtech.com
Intel also stated that by using parallel decoders it can either support concurrent video streams or they can be combined to support a single large stream, and this scalable design will allow future hardware to push the peak resolutions up to 8K and beyond.

[NikosD]

There is a huge lie regarding Gen11 iGPU or at least misinformation.

It's not the first Teraflop iGPU by Intel and probably not the fastest one.

Skylake, back to 2015, had a GT4e version (Iris Pro 580) that leveraged 72 EUs and Max 1.15 TFlops performance using also 128MB of embedded memory.

I doubt that 2019 iGPU Gen11 will be faster than that.

[Zetti]

New rumors for GTX 1100 series.

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1160-and-geforce-rtx-2060-launch-specs-rumor/

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-gtx-11-series-1160-ti-rumor,38283.html

[Yups]

There is a huge lie regarding Gen11 iGPU or at least misinformation.

It's not the first Teraflop iGPU by Intel and probably not the fastest one.

Skylake, back to 2015, had a GT4e version (Iris Pro 580) that leveraged 72 EUs and Max 1.15 TFlops performance using also 128MB of embedded memory.

I doubt that 2019 iGPU Gen11 will be faster than that.


The first mainstream "for everyone" 1 Tflop iGPU from Intel for budget notebooks upwards. Skylake GT4e was basically non existent and its performance lacklustre (only 50% faster with 3x the EU count). Even Intels GT3e is more or less dead. I also believe that 64 Gen11 EUs will be easily faster/more efficient than 72 Gen9 EUs in real world circumstances at the same power envelope. Gen11 is so much newer with a better memory compression, bigger cache and lots of other improvements.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DsfMftViewer.html
Version 1.8.0 (01/06/2019)
Added support to check dll information about the following MFT in Windows10 Version 1809
AV1 Video Extension
HEIF Image Extension
VP9 Video Extension
Webp Image Extension
Added some subtype names
Minor changes and fixes

[NikosD]

Nice.

But still waiting for his new DXVA Checker with min/avg/max fps and some other fixes.

It's been almost 9 months from the last version.

[Arm3nian]

How do you test LAV D3D11 decode performance with DXVA Checker? The option is always grayed out.

[NikosD]

How do you test LAV D3D11 decode performance with DXVA Checker? The option is always grayed out. IIRC you need at least Win 8 OS

[Arm3nian]

I'm on Windows 10, and the latest version of everything else. D3D11 works in LAV, even though all the decoding options show inactive for some reason. It's there in the play and playback performance menus, but not in the decode performance.

[nevcairiel]

You cannot test native D3D11 mode in LAV with anything but madVR itself.

[NikosD]

I'm on Windows 10, and the latest version of everything else. D3D11 works in LAV, even though all the decoding options show inactive for some reason. It's there in the play and playback performance menus, but not in the decode performance. Indeed. I can't see the option.
Is there somewhere in this thread a D3D11 native performance post for LAV ?

[huhn]

as new said it can only be used with madVR which has quite some over head by doing thing properly compared to other renderer so it can't be measured comparable.

[nevcairiel]

The performance should be rather quite similar to DXVA2 Native anyway. Its practically the same code, just with different D3D objects. The big advantage is more freedom in accessing the data from a video renderer, without loss in quality.

[aufkrawall]

D3D11VA even runs on the slowest Intel IGPs with mpv's zero copy decoding (while 10 bit video being free of banding at the same time, as "dumb-mode" allows dithering).
I can play 4k 60fps VP9 10 bit (btw: thanks again @nev for implementing it in ffmpeg!) HDR video + tonemapping on Gemini Lake (until it throttles).

[wanezhiling]

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/amd-gfx/2018-May/022291.html
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/amd-gfx/2018-May/022282.html
Vega20, includes VCE 4.1 and two UVD 7.2 instances.

[NikosD]

https://videocardz.com/77895/the-new-features-of-nvidia-turing-architecture



Main 4:4:4 12 profile hardware decoding? Quite an upgrade from Pascal's Main12 profile 4:2:0 hardware decoding.Latest nVidia SDK 9.0 is out and it seems that decoding features are the same like Volta, adding HEVC 4:4:4 up to 8K and 12bits.

The HEVC/VP9 support up to 8K and 12bits is impressive, but the info regarding H.264 8bit support of 8K resolution is not accurate, it's still 4K.

Regarding my previous comment of Turing Tesla decoding performance, it seems that only professional cards (Quadro, Tesla) will be that fast.

Turing's decoder performance regarding consumer/gaming cards should be on par of the very rare Volta's decoder which is a little (?) faster than Pascal's second generation decoder (1050 Ti etc)

Maybe a few decoding benchmarks of Turing vs Pascal (new) would be useful.

[NikosD]

Intel's upcoming Gen11 Icelake iGPU besides 64 EUs vs 24 EUs of Gen9 has also doubled Media Decoding/Encoding performance by adding a second MFX unit.

Intel has also added 4:4:4 support for both HEVC and VP9 and VP9 encoding.

It still misses 12bit that nVidia already supports and it doesn't mention anything of AV1 support.

[sneaker_ger]

Yes, it was said that Gen11 wouldn't have AV1.
There is not any AV1 acceleration yet but it's "coming soon" past Gen11 and Intel is "fully committed" to AV1.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Intel-Gen11-Graphics-Details

[nevcairiel]

Hardware development cycles are likely too long to even be able to make Gen11 if they wanted to. I wouldn't expect AV1 hardware before Mid/End 2020.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.2.0 (03/30/2019)
Discontinued support for AMD VP9 hybird decoder
Fixed driver setting issue on specific intel iGPU
Updated DSF/MFT Viewer
Minor Changes, fixes and improvements

[NikosD]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html Min/Max fps is back, but this was fixed months ago.

I see no differences from 4.1.2 justifying the delay, so why it took so long to be released is a mystery.

[Elo]

Please excuse me if the following does not belong in this thread. I find it very difficult to understand the Video processing in a software player (and for me in particular the J River Media Center MC24/25) for UHD material to such a level that I can dimension a 4k system.The unclear points is mainly how the processing tasks are controled and split between different HW components in the system. Can for instance the decding be done by the GPU on the CPU and the rendering be done on a external GPU?. I am about to upgrade my system to a true 4k system which involves changing out nearly all components in the chain (except power amplifiers and loudspeakers) and today there is several possible system layouts to consider. Currently I am using a high end “surround” processor/amplifier which acts as a video switch and sound decoder taking on all video sources , and pass them on to monitor and loudspeakers. The new smart TVs offers another possible layout namely using the smart TV as the videoswitch (Samsung QLEDS) and using the ARC (audio return channel) for the sound. These TVs have a input box with all connections that is connected to the TV through a thin cable containing fibers and power supply. Further these TVs have built in apps for the most popular streaming sources (much like the Apple TV). Sources not covered by dedicated Apps can be played through Chromcast Ultra or similar.

It seems to me that the 9th Gen Intel Coffe Lake on a motherboard that supports HDMI 2 through a DP 1.4 to HDMI 2 conversion chip would have the nessesary funcionality to support MC’s video playback system based on madVDR rendering. But does it have the nessesary computational power? I would like someone with bettere expertise than me to comment on this?

If we look at external GPUs Nvidia 1660 upwards they are gigantic in size and power consumption. I am not at all interested in gaming an only need a system capable of playing all videomaterial thrown at it. It seems to be to be an overkill to use 2060 GPU alongside Intels 7th generations CPU onwards.

From the 8th gen if Intels CPUs (Kerby Lake) with onchip GPU there is HW support for H.264, H.265, HDR etc. (4k):


With a mother board with Kerby Lake CPU and a “weak” GPU like Nvidia 1050 (exists in a passively cooled version), can the decoding (4k) be done in hardware on the CPU (rather its GPU) and the rendering on the external GPU and thus utlizing the HW capabilities to its maximum? (Controled by MC24 and madvr with monitor is connected throug the HDMI connection at the external GPU)
Further using a 9th generation Intel CPU on a motherboard with HDMI 2. Is this strong enough to perform high level rendering and decoding of H.265 coded video? If yes this opens up for the last generation Intel NUC to offer a bvery small and effective HTPC solution ONLY for media playback (no gaming).
Can these tasks be placed and controlde through the set up interface of madVR?


I would appreciate it a lot if someone can help me understand these issues!

.../Elo

[huhn]

1. you could that that but i doubt this is going to be any faster.
2. it can easily decode it but the processing power is pretty weak an AMD APU should be a better and cheaper choice.
3. no madVR is a renderer not a decoder/splitter this is job of the decoder/splitter.

you know there a re threads for madVR in forum?

[Elo]

1. you could that that but i doubt this is going to be any faster.
2. it can easily decode it but the processing power is pretty weak an AMD APU should be a better and cheaper choice.
3. no madVR is a renderer not a decoder/splitter this is job of the decoder/splitter.

you know there a re threads for madVR in forum?

Thank you ... Yes I know and will adress the issue there aswell..
I am suprised that you say the AMD APU ia a better choice? Can you direct me to benchmarks that expands on this?

[huhn]

wrong thread :-).
there is a reason the fastest "IGPU" intel has is an AMD card.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Iris-Plus-Graphics-655-vs-Vega-11-vs-Vega-6_8828_8470_8466.247598.0.html

and an apu with an vega 11 cost a fraction.
the hardware decoder on amd are not the best i have no clue if they now have VP 9 profile 2 and if you care about this used but still niche codec.

[Zetti]

http://bluesky23.yukishigure.com/en/DXVAChecker.html
Version 4.2.1 (04/20/2019)
Fixed Media Foundation decoder check prosess crash issue when GPU does not support D3D11 video acceleration
Fixed Device Information submit issue since April 18
Fixed "Show in Groups" setting issue on DSF/MFT Viewer
Minor fix

[NikosD]

Just after a little more than one month and a half of its release, I decided to buy after many, many years a new gaming card.

I'm talking of course about nVidia GTX 1660, which I bought in a budget (230 €) dual fan implementation, but not low-cost quality.

The 1660 card has a reference boost clock of 1785 MHz and a TDP of 120W by nVidia, mine has a 1830 MHz boost and a TDP of 130W but apparently it's out of the box overclocked to 1965 MHz.

Running with a GPU Clock of 1965 MHz means that the Video clock is 1815 MHz, which was the running clock during testing.

I used DXVA Checker v4.2.1 with LAV filters v0.74.1.1 in DXVA2 native mode on Win 10 x64 (17763.475) and my system has a Core i3 4170 with 16GB (2x8GB) Dual Channel DDR3-1600MHz RAM.

Turing video decoder is especially optimized for HEVC and even more specialized for 8K resolution.

Check my results here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1799099#post1799099

Now, regarding older codecs used by Blu-ray like H.264, VC-1, MPEG2 I did a little test and find out that Intel with Haswell and onwards is still the king:


MPEG2 (1080p clip 38Mbps / 30fps)


Haswell@1.3GHz 1470 fps

Turing@1.8GHz 720 fps


VC-1 (Devil May Cry 1080p clip 40Mbps / 60fps)


Haswell@1.3GHz 1067 fps

Turing@1.8GHz 753 fps


H.264 (Ducks Take Off 2160p clip 370Mbps / 50fps)


Haswell@1.3GHz 144fps

Turing@1.8GHz 102 fps

Now, regarding more modern codecs than these used by Blu-ray - like VP9 - the situation is a little different, meaning that the performance is close to Pascal but only a little faster.

The 8K VP9 performance is not so optimized like 8K HEVC (8bit/10bit) for Turing.
Actually it should be the exact same video decoding engine of Pascal, running a little faster due to faster Turing clocks.

Using 8K VP9 8bit clip from YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ as a reference, we get:


Turing@1.8GHz 74/77 fps/78

Pascal@1.65GHz 68 fps

Kabylake UHD 620@1.15GHz 64 fps

In real-time playback of the clip above, using my Core i3 4170 - Win 10 x64 - nVidia 1660 system and Chrome v74 or Edge, I see no dropped frames decoding the VP9 8K 60fps stream (full screen or window) while Video Engine load of GTX 1660 is steady at ~77%

[wanezhiling]

https://i.postimg.cc/C5frqPsq/QQ-20190507220804.png

Huawei Matebook E 2019 (https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/64352792)


---------------------------------------
More quick tests

4K HEVC 10bit 60p:
https://i.postimg.cc/T3mWNpxm/QQ-20190508000340.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/158F6vYv/QQ-20190508000330.jpg

4K VP9 8bit 60p:
https://i.postimg.cc/VsGMdx4S/QQ-20190508000344.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/28gZxnsr/QQ-20190508000336.png

a slow gpu @windows 10, indeed.:cool:

[loekf]

Just after a little more than one month and a half of its release, I decided to buy after many, many years a new gaming card.

I'm talking of course about nVidia GTX 1660, which I bought in a budget (230 €) dual fan implementation, but not low-cost quality.

The 1660 card has a reference boost clock of 1785 MHz and a TDP of 120W by nVidia, mine has a 1830 MHz boost and a TDP of 130W but apparently it's out of the box overclocked to 1965 MHz.



@NikosD, I swapped in my HTPC the GTX 1050 Ti for a GTX 1650 today, which has a boost clock of 1665 MHz and a TDP of 75W. The card has the same NVDEC as all Turing versions, only the NVENC is from Pascal as most review sites have mentioned.

Review sites don’t like this card, but I saw some benefits for video decode.

[NikosD]

@NikosD, I swapped in my HTPC the GTX 1050 Ti for a GTX 1650 today, which has a boost clock of 1665 MHz and a TDP of 75W. The card has the same NVDEC as all Turing versions, only the NVENC is from Pascal as most review sites have mentioned.

Review sites don’t like this card, but I saw some benefits for video decode. GTX 1650 has an awful price for its gaming performance, it should be around ~130$ instead of 150$ that nVidia asks.
In this GPU category, 20$ matter.

GTX 1650 has the same NVDEC but at lower clock and NVENC is from Volta, not Pascal which has no real difference than Turing but one.
HEVC B-frames, only supported for Turing's NVENC.

But according to rigaya, the author of NVEncC HW transcoding SW, nVidia added HEVC B-frame support in its SDK for GTX 1650 (!)

So, it's possible that GTX 1650 has the same encoding features like all Turing cards.

[clsid]

@wanezhiling
Can you test playback with MPC-HC?
Is it fast enough for DXVA2 copy-back, or only DXVA2 native?

[nevcairiel]

@wanezhiling
Can you test playback with MPC-HC?
Is it fast enough for DXVA2 copy-back, or only DXVA2 native?

Its an ARM CPU, so if it can even run MPC-HC or the likes, it'll run it in binary translation mode, which is sloow, so something that only works because its properly optimized like copy-back is unlikely to work properly at all.

If Windows ARM systems become more popular, I'll have to make a ARM build of LAV, I suppose. Still no assembly though, unless I bother to learn how to make some.

[clsid]

It should be able to run x86 applications with WoW emulation. But you are right, SIMD optimized code will likely not perform well, that is why I asked to test copy-back. I doubt it will work for 4k, but maybe 1080p24?

[huhn]

ARM windows system are tested for quite some time now they can run pretty much everything even through is slow to say it friendly. windows itself has native arm code for pretty much everything too including the now dead edge. so it is supposed to work with mpc-hc.

ARM server not only from Amazon are out already. so this is not an IF this is more about when this will be a major player in netbooks and office desktop PC systems.

it looks like Microsoft is doing a pretty good job already on this front.

[wanezhiling]

@clsid

4k cb is extremely slow, fhd24p is fine

[huhn]

can check the "PCIe" or equivalent bandwidth the GPU got to make sure that's not the issue maybe GPU-Z works with it.

[littleD]

By accident i found nice table (http://robux4.blogspot.com/2019/03/windows-video-playback-performance.html) of what new old VLC 3.0 can do in terms of gpu/cpu usage during decoding. I must admit i never liked this player because was ugly and had ugly language translation and some more things in the past. It have suprised me once though when have tried to play dumped transport dvb streams. It could detect and play all streams (including subs and teletext). Today i was impresssed second time and wish now it stays longer on my disc.
I followed an eye test from the link above with my own eyeballs using some HDR sources i have. Also turned on options dx11 out and dx11 decoding, in hope player would really use it. Then I was impressed with how snappy and smooth this player is. It can decode whatever (one thing later) you throw in it. I was using also and intel cpu/gpu chip and SDR screen (laptop).
Conclusion is that HDR content on SDR screen is moderate, i mean not washed out but not oversaturated too. I think its similar to what madvr gives. Comparing to other players: MPC HC cannot decode HDR gamut giving washed out colors on picture. On the other hand MPC BE pictures are over saturated, colors strokes my eyes, and red can go into claret. Movies and TV win10 app gives more colourful picture than vlc and madvr, yet still having style - its pleasant to watch. So conclusion is similar to what vlc dev presented. I cant say finally which HDR-SDR matrix is right, Movies and TV or VLC. But have to repeat i m glad i rediscovered this player.
Found one flaw though. VLC cannot hardware decode VP9 files with 2020 color gamut. At least on my intel system Cpu usage is high and at same time no video decoder in use. Not sure if its common or my samples are defected.

[huhn]

interlacing:
MPC-BE seems to double the original frame rate by default and interpolate between frames (soap opera effect). It may be good for sport but this is not a sport sample...

doubling the frame rate is the correct way in doing it and it has nothing todo with soap opera interpolation...
testing rendering with naming the player not the renderer...
HDR tone mapping...

just move on trust me there isn't much to learn here at all...

[alex1399]

Pascal NVENC might have the HEVC B-frame encoding features but NV decided to disable them at all.

I've mixed up the 1660 NVENC with the 1650 NVENC, the statement above is not correct.

[NikosD]

https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2019/05/10th-Gen-Intel-Core-Product-Brief.pdf Gen11 of Ice Lake according to these specs doesn't look so fast.

No difference than current Gen9.5 of Coffee Lake actually and a lot slower than Turing for HEVC decoding.

[wanezhiling]

https://i.postimg.cc/wxsXdmtt/591319bb8fcd48afa3571a6498e6afda.png

RNDA architecture

8k30 264...meanlingless...

still no 8k 265&vp9

[huhn]

the whole card is very disappointing if the prices are correct then every word i said about over priced turing cards have no ground anymore...

VCN is already been used by there APUs so "all new" is not that new.
no HDMI 2.1 just another hint that they don't care.

2000 series looks more and more reasonable...

[jones1913]

RNDA architecture

8k30 264...meanlingless...

still no 8k 265&vp9

That image seems to contain errors. Here is a better one:

https://i.postimg.cc/sDB9FQL6/amd-navi-rme.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xc2bMCnM)

There is apparently still an error in the lower left rectangle: 8K ENCODE ?


the whole card is very disappointing if the prices are correct then every word i said about over priced turing cards have no ground anymore...
I would say AMD have learned that customers are more than willing to pay high prices for graphics cards. Nvidia's billion revenues are the proof.

no HDMI 2.1 just another hint that they don't care.
They stated that HDMI 2.1 came to late to be implemented into the Navi10 design. (Computerbase.de (https://www.computerbase.de/2019-06/navi-radeon-rx-5700-xt/#abschnitt_pcie_40_dsckompression_eine_neue_videoengine_und_mehr))

[NikosD]

It's unreasonable to have 8K encoding without 8K decoding, but the opposite is very reasonable.

I believe that eventually AMD supports 8K decoding for VP9 & H.265, hopefully for both 8bit & 10bit depth, but unfortunately at very low speeds of 24fps

Let's hope it's a pure HW (ASIC) implementation and not hybrid just because Navi is going to have a lot of shaders.

[huhn]

the VCN decoder in vega APUs is fixed function even thorugh only up to vp9 4K30 for 10 bit (typo?)... so it should be a given that navi has at least that ignoring the vega 7 here which is newer then vega 8/11 and doesn't have it...

shader number not sure why you care about the shader number they a similar to polaris and clearly more powerful about 10-30 % more at the same clock speed hard to judge right now without knowing the real clock rates.

[chros]

2000 series looks more and more reasonable...
Errr ... The used pascal cards still look more reasonable :D

[shae]

Can anyone else confirm the Strongene Lentoid h265 decoder is much faster than LAVFilters?
I thought LAV improved in more recent times.

Specs:

x86 on an Intel 3xxx CPU
LAV decoder 0.74.1 (MPC-HC internal)
Lentoid 2.2

[NikosD]

Can anyone else confirm the Strongene Lentoid h265 decoder is much faster than LAVFilters?
I thought LAV improved in more recent times.

Specs:

x86 on an Intel 3xxx CPU
LAV decoder 0.74.1 (MPC-HC internal)
Lentoid 2.2 I have written it a lot of times that x86 version of Lentoid HEVC decoder is a lot faster than x86 version of LAV HEVC decoder.

LAV video and ffmpeg are not optimized at all for x86 HEVC decoding.

But LAV x64 HEVC is faster than both x86 & x64 Lentoid HEVC decoders.

Also, last time I checked Lentoid didn't support 10bit HEVC decoding.

[shae]

I can't find a way to benchmark in GraphStudioNext. Am I missing something obvious?

Using Process Explorer, I'm seeing roughly the same performance for Lentoid x86, x64, and LAV x64 (in clsid's MPC-HC):
https://i.imgur.com/Ba1ozyj.png

[sneaker_ger]

There's a benchmark tool in "View"->"Performance Test". Your filter chain should look something like e.g. "LAV Splitter Source"->"LAV Video"->"Time Measure Filter"->"Null Renderer".


I think Lentoid might be on par or even better on very old CPUs.

[lvqcl]

I thought LAV improved in more recent times.

IIRC 32-bit HEVC decoder in LAV Video was about 2x slower than 64-bit; now it's only 1.5x slower.

Also, last time I checked Lentoid didn't support 10bit HEVC decoding.

From Strongene Lentoid decoder web page: "The 10-bit encoded HEVC videos can be correctly decoded (but still rendered in 8-bit for output)"

I can't find a way to benchmark in GraphStudioNext. Am I missing something obvious?


GraphStudio: View -> Decoder Performance...
GraphStudioNext: View -> Performance Test...

[shae]

Thanks. GraphStudioNext 32-bit works, but x64 fails to use the splitter.

While both LAV Splitter and LAV Splitter Source are listed in the Filters window, and all formats are enabled in the splitter, GraphStudioNext x64 doesn't build a proper graph when opening a file, and "Rebuild Graph" fails with VFW_E_CANNOT_LOAD_SOURCE_FILTER (0x80040241).

Opening a file uses "File Source (Async.)", though its merit is lower than the LAV splitter.

Any idea why?

[Yups]

Gen11 of Ice Lake according to these specs doesn't look so fast.

No difference than current Gen9.5 of Coffee Lake actually and a lot slower than Turing for HEVC decoding.


Gen12 HEVC decoding from Tigerlake-U should be capable of at least 8k60 because they made a statement saying that Tigerlake is 4x faster with an 8k60 encode compared to 4k60 encoding speed in Whiskey Lake. They need at least an 8k60 decoder to achieve this speed increase.


https://abload.de/img/tglerj85.png

[huhn]

you don't need a decoder at all for encoding and clearly not a h264 to do h264 encoding.

it's just needs an raw input stream with 8k60 like a screen capture raw render and stuff like this.

[sneaker_ger]

Don't you need most of the decoding features even in a "pure" encoder because you reference decoded pictures?

[Yups]

you don't need a decoder at all for encoding and clearly not a h264 to do h264 encoding.

it's just needs an raw input stream with 8k60 like a screen capture raw render and stuff like this.



I'm saying the decoding speed must be higher than 8k30 for Gen12, otherwise they won't be able to outpace 4k60 by 4x with 8k60. Also it would be strange if they support 8k60 encoding without a capable 8k60 decoding in hardware.

[NikosD]

Has anyone found out a DXVA Checker screenshot of Navi ? (RX 5700 series)

Or even better any info regarding decoding performance/ features.

[nsnhd]

I've seen just a short summary of Guru3d review:
Display and video/media engine
Radeon series 5700 obviously will support FreeSync 2 (Dolby Vision HDR10). Connectivity wise you'll notice that the mini USB connector for VR is not there, that's optional to offer for the AIB partners. But it does confirm what I have been saying a long time, the VR trend has passed. You'll notice HDMI 2.0b support (not 2.1), new is Display Stream Compression which we'll talk a bit more about in the actual review. The media engine has been updated as well, now offering support for H.264 4K150/8K30 Decodes and 4K90 Encodes (that's Ultra HD recording at 90 Hz/PS). For H.265 you'll see 4K60 Decode support, 4K90 Encode support. lastly, Vp9 has become more popular with Youtube and Twitch supporting it and as such, that was bumped up towards 4K60 Decodes. The new Navi cards support both HDR10 and Dolby Vision.

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_radeon_rx_5700_and_5700_xt_review,6.html

[NikosD]

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_radeon_rx_5700_and_5700_xt_review,6.html So, 4Κ90 fps for encoding of both H.264 and H.265 but 8K30fps decoding for H.264 and 4K60fps for H.265 ?

I think both encoding and decoding figures make no sense.

Guru3D has to be wrong.

[nsnhd]

Has anyone found out a DXVA Checker screenshot of Navi ? (RX 5700 series)

Or even better any info regarding decoding performance/ features.

https://2.pik.vn/201986650cdc-52f4-4f09-8191-e15b3d281841.jpg

[NikosD]

Nice, thanks!
So, everything is supported up to 8K.

Probably a driver's bug or AMD got crazy.

[huhn]

by there own words it can do VP9 60 if it could do massively more they would say so and clearly this doesn't mean it can't do 8K at some Fps for VP9.

kind strange that it isn't checked for decoded speed and i only saw one test of the encoder too where let'S say just hope the driver is the reason for that...

maybe testing "super", zen 2 and navi in the same weeks was just to much to put that in for now.

[nevcairiel]

Seems like a driver quirk for me that it simply doesn't refuse unsupported resolutions. This wouldn't be the first time for AMD either where the driver accepted resolutions it just couldn't play at all.

[littleD]

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Vulkan-Video-Decode-H1-2020

Khronos group plans to add hardware video decoding into vulkan. Initially h264 and hevc, later VP9 and AV1. Article mention it gonna be cross- OS. I wonder how it gonna work on Windows. Is it gonna be a middleware as additional layer emulating things between OS and player, or have direct access to hardware decoding modules. The latter would imply completely new interface.

[NikosD]

I have seen that article too and I wanted to post it to LAV filters thread.

Maybe @nevcairiel could make a comment on this.

[huhn]

you need a directshow vulkan renderer before. at the end it's just another API accessing the same encoder and decoder.

[nevcairiel]

Indeed, there is no real benefit on Windows yet, since its litereally the same hardware being accessed. DXVA2 or D3D11VA is already a cross-vendor API that generally works well. It might help on Linux where there is no cross-vendor API and you have to deal with VAAPI and NVDEC at least, instead of just one.
Maybe if one day someone makes a Vulkan renderer for DirectShow, maybe then.

[NikosD]

It's official.

Navi has a fixed-function decoder for HEVC and VP9 supporting 8bit and 10bit up to 8K24fps.

It's a slow 8K decoder, but it's a start.

The video engine can decode H.264 streams at high-throughput:
1080p at 600 frames/sec (fps) and 4K at 150 fps.

It can simultaneously encode at about half the speed:
1080p at 360 fps
and 4K at 90 fps.

8K decode is available at 24 fps for both HEVC and VP9.

For more advanced compression, the video engine delivers high throughput decoding for either 8-bit or 10-bit color:
360 fps for a 1080p stream, 90 fps for a 4K stream, and 24 fps for an 8K stream.

[littleD]

Newest Intel beta drivers introduce Integer scaling. Do you think integer is good scaling option for eg 4K>HD for video playback because some people say so. Never tried but cant imagine this.

[huhn]

it's not a good downscaler i just say it it's one of the worst. i highly doubt intel or nvidia can even downscale using it.

it has a very specfic use case where it is the "best" and that's pixel art upscaling and only if it is done with an integar as an multiplier.

it's part of EVR CP for like ever madVR can do too only with hot keys it's generally considered to be a bad scaler.
it's so easy to do a CPU can do it easily.

to downscale UHD to FHD you just have to read 2 mill pixel and write 2 mill pixel with no math what so ever.

[littleD]

it's not a good downscaler i just say it it's one of the worst. i highly doubt intel or nvidia can even downscale using it.

it has a very specfic use case where it is the "best" and that's pixel art upscaling and only if it is done with an integar as an multiplier.

it's part of EVR CP for like ever madVR can do too only with hot keys it's generally considered to be a bad scaler.
it's so easy to do a CPU can do it easily.

to downscale UHD to FHD you just have to read 2 mill pixel and write 2 mill pixel with no math what so ever.Its all how i got it. I feel even more confirmed now.

There is so much hype over integer scaling. Definitely one of many mini battles between gpu vendors. Unfortunately the use if IS is misinterpreted on many places on the net.

[NikosD]

https://pcper.com/2019/09/ice-lake-benchmarks-1065g7-vs-3700u/ Ice Lake Gen11 DXVA Checker screenshot. Biggest DXVA Checker list I have ever seen.
But I thought Gen11 had exactly the same decoder with previous version of Gen9.5/9.
If not, I would like to see some benchmarks of VP9 8K60fps YouTube clips and HEVC 8K 8bit/10bit.

I can't remember if Gen9.5 and older had VP8 HW decoding like the one I see for Gen11.

[wanezhiling]

I can't remember if Gen9.5 and older had VP8 HW decoding like the one I see for Gen11.
https://i.postimg.cc/Zqjn0Wnm/QQ-20190907192221.png

[huhn]

do you have some test videos you want me to throw at an rx 5700 XT?

[NikosD]

do you have some test videos you want me to throw at an rx 5700 XT? Just test the four clips above >4K (not 4K) HEVC from here (8bit & 10bit) http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1799099

They are the two bonus clips for 8bit HEVC and two bonus clips for 10bit HEVC.

Also, download and test the 8K resolution of VP9 clip from YouTube here:
https://youtu.be/1La4QzGeaaQ

[huhn]

8K_Ex_sample.mp4
39 45 48

Arri65_from_raw.mp4
44 47 50

MBC UHD Music Core GFriend - Rough (4in1) 8k.mkv
26 37 46

peru is software only

GPU clock is supposed to be 6 mhz while power consumption is supposed to be 39 watt so that does not work.

[NikosD]

8K_Ex_sample.mp4

39 45 48



Arri65_from_raw.mp4

44 47 50



MBC UHD Music Core GFriend - Rough (4in1) 8k.mkv

26 37 46



peru is software only



GPU clock is supposed to be 6 mhz while power consumption is supposed to be 39 watt so that does not work. Thanks.
The results for 8K HEVC are close to low clocked Intel iGPUs like HD 610, but still not bad.
What is the clock of video decoder during benchmarks ?
Did you try both DXVA2 and D3D11 ?

For VP9 you have to explicitly check it in LAV filters because it's disabled by default.

[huhn]

VP9 is checked by default in lavfilter for a while now and yes i tried bothd3d11 and dxva2 for that video it falls back to software.
according to GPU-Z the clock was at 6 mhz. even when i "boost" the clock through other means (madVR) the speed didn't change.

when hardware decoding works the video decoder was at 99-100 % load in taskmanager.

i'm on 19.9.2 and they changed something:
System instability may be experienced on some Radeon RX 5700 series graphics system configurations when watching video content in a web browser.

i would usually get a driver crash when playing a video with hardware acceleration. i didn't got that with that new version.
one of the reasons i'm not in this thread earlier. there was simply no point. i take it back just crashed...

on old VP9 video i used to trigger a limitation in lavfilter using huge CPU queues it always uses software decoding and that file clearly worked on my 1060. mpc-hc with youtubedl works and VP9 decoding is used for 1080p.

[NikosD]

VP9 is checked by default in lavfilter for a while now and yes i tried bothd3d11 and dxva2 for that video it falls back to software.
according to GPU-Z the clock was at 6 mhz. even when i "boost" the clock through other means (madVR) the speed didn't change.

when hardware decoding works the video decoder was at 99-100 % load in taskmanager. I think VP9 was not checked by default on AMD cards, but anyway.

In order to find out the real clocks (and many other parameters) for video decoding on any chip (Intel,nVidia, AMD), I would try HWiNFO v6.10 or newer.

It seems like a broken driver for HW acceleration of VP9, but if suddenly VP9 acceleration is working on a browser (Edge, Chrome etc) playing YouTube and DXVA Checker is still falling back to SW decoding, then you should mention it to DXVA Checker developer to update his app.

[huhn]

some files work some don't nothing todo with dxva checker.

video clock in hwinfo is greyed out.

[DMU]

8K_Ex_sample.mp4
39 45 48

Please explain to me what these numbers mean or where they come from?

[huhn]

it's the same format as the rest of the tests.
min avg max fps.

the test show the card can only do 8k 30.

[DMU]

Thank you, huhn.
What kind of test do you mean?

[huhn]

we test the speed of hardware decoder here.
the test is done using dxva checker.

[NikosD]

Does anyone have access to an Intel Gen11 iGPU laptop or other product ?
I would like to see its 8K HEVC/VP9 decoding speed.
I don't know if there is anything already posted on Net.

[littleD]

Some Gen11 info from whitepapers:
The Media FF baseline configuration increases in Gen11to include 2 MFX (up from 1 in Gen9) along with 1 VQE and 1 SFC. The 2 MFX units can be used for better concurrency such as video playback and video encoding simultaneously. Alternatively, workloads can utilize both engines concurrently to increase performance or reduce clock frequencies to increase battery life. With Gen11, MFX VP9 decode bitdepth support is increased up to10bits which is required for HDR video scenarios. Additionally, both HEVC and VP9 have been improved to support higher quality chroma subsampling of 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 for both HEVC and VP9. 4:2:2 benefits users in high-end video production while 4:4:4 is optimal for screen content such as text\document screen recording and sharing. MFX encoding on Gen11 introduces VP9 support and significantly improves HEVC encoding compression efficiency over Gen9. Gen11 VQE expands hardware denoise bitdepth to 10bits. High dynamic range (HDR) workloads will benefit from new software programmable 3DLUT tables such has HDR2HDR and HDR2SDR tone mapping.
"New" VP9 10 bit decode info is repeated every new generation :)

[NikosD]

peru is software only
What do you think of this conversation ?
https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AMF/issues/186

[huhn]

my navi GPU fallbacks to software decoding on some 720p files...
it looks like it doesn't likes old VP9 encodes and 8k simply doesn't work. BTW peru 4k VP9 profile 2 is software only too.
so he want me to contact AMD just like this:
https://community.amd.com/thread/218278
not saying he is wrong but they clearly don't care in that example.
AMF doesn't support VP9 yet. Work in progress.
http://i.imgur.com/AaVqVKv.png

only been 3 year. but why should you add something that newer was suppose to work anyway.

[aufkrawall]

my navi GPU fallbacks to software decoding on some 720p files...

Have you tried in browser? I can't get D3D11VA/DXVA2 for VP9 to work outside of browsers on Navi.
VAAPI on Linux works however.

[NikosD]

My navi GPU fallbacks to software decoding on some 720p files...

It looks like it doesn't likes old VP9 encodes and 8k simply doesn't work.

BTW peru 4k VP9 profile 2 is software only too.

So he want me to contact AMD just like this:
https://community.amd.com/thread/218278 If I had a Navi card I would open a thread like I did back then.
You reminded me the good old days of RX 470 :D

Anyway, I updated my post to AMF github, but remember that we are talking about AMF SDK which is mainly encoding (and decoding of course) API, or better say transcoding.

They could easily not update AMF for HW decoding of VP9 right now, but at the same time DXVA2/D3D11VA could work like a charm or better say should work.

I think it's a drivers problem for VP9 HW decoding but if I were you I would open a thread on drivers forum of AMD with specific VP9 samples (from 720p to 8K)

[huhn]

Have you tried in browser? I can't get D3D11VA/DXVA2 for VP9 to work outside of browsers on Navi.
VAAPI on Linux works however.

works in browser not with lavfilter same for VP9 profile 2.

[NikosD]

works in browser not with lavfilter same for VP9 profile 2. Then I suggest to post to LAV filters thread regarding VP9 HW decoding of Navi because it looks like the AMD guy is right.

But I'm not sure how AMD is using standard DXVA2/D3D11VA decoding and not proprietary and LAV filters fail to decode it in HW.

Only nevcairiel and AMD can answer to that.

[nevcairiel]

Feel free to send me any cards that don't work and I can tell you.

[NikosD]

Not me, I did my best to bring the two worlds closer (SW - LAV filters and HW - Navi cards) by posting to the AMD AMF GitHub.

It's up to you guys...

[aufkrawall]

mpv shows the same behavior as lav filters, so the problem apparently is in the AMD driver.

[NikosD]

AMD probably has changed something regarding VP9 HW decoding and the developers should contact AMD according to the AMD guy of the thread I posted above, IIUC.

[nevcairiel]

Thats why we have standards like DXVA, so that we don't need vendor-specific information for this to work. Thats the entire point of something universal like this over the whole Linux situation where you need to deal with 3 vendor APIs.
LAV doesn't really have any vendor-specific DXVA stuff at all, outside of some compatibility flags for very old GPUs (since they often supported only very limited bitstreams). Any more recent hardware has typically just worked fine out of the box. VP9 DXVA support is implemented based on Microsoft documents, not anything provided by Intel or NVIDIA.

Its also imaginable that an application needs to be whitelisted in the AMD driver to allow this. Maybe try renaming mpc-hc or so to Chrome.exe and see if it works.

In any case, I plan to work on improving logging for LAV, so that users can enable debug logs more easily, maybe that can help to shed some light in the future.

[huhn]

with DXVA2 copyback MPC-HC shows [H/W] indicator at playback start for about a sec only with files that should be able to use hardware decoding.

[aufkrawall]

Thats why we have standards like DXVA, so that we don't need vendor-specific information for this to work. Thats the entire point of something universal like this over the whole Linux situation where you need to deal with 3 vendor APIs.

VAAPI works with free drivers of both Intel & AMD, so it's actually sufficient to support this. And unlike AMD's weird intransparent Windows driver, it just works with any program utilizing it on Navi. ;)

[NikosD]

It's better not to play power games, we all want the things to just work.

I have done the "middle man" between SW devs and HW OEMs many times in order to fix things, but this time I just don't have a Navi card to play that role again.

It's not only AMD.

I remember Intel introducing a new DXVA2 mode of VC-1 HW decoding that LAV filters should adapt in order to work.

Or something regarding 10bit rendering of Intel's drivers, that I don't remember exactly.

Anyway, I don't know the case here, but let's all move one step forward to solve the issue instead of standing to our positions "we do everything perfectly, it's the others fault" even if it's true.

[NikosD]

Intel has essentially cancelled 10nm desktop CPUs with this statement: We continue to make great progress on 10nm, and our current roadmap of 10nm products includes desktop. after the rumors.
I think Charlie of Semiaccurate is HUGE and extremely accurate too.
Respect to Charlie.

[Yups]

Intel has essentially cancelled 10nm desktop CPUs with this statement: after the rumors.
I think Charlie of Semiaccurate is HUGE and extremely accurate too.
Respect to Charlie.


In this statement Intel confirmed there will be desktop CPUs and not the other way around. About Charlie, just 1 year ago he claimed 10nm is completely dead. We already have Icelake and we get multiple 10nm products the next year from the very low end to server and discrete graphics, saying he is extremely accurate is a laughable joke in this context. Charlie is a known Intel hater, also he needs bait articles for his subscribers, it's part of his job, don't trust everything he says.

[NikosD]

10nm for desktop is DOA.

Intel will skip it for 7nm (hopefully)

Charlie is a living God.

[mariner]

VP92 support

Finally succumbed to the temptations of remembrance day offerings and picked up a couple of cheap HDMI2.0 cards for my decade old LGA775 antiques. Here are some screenshots while I dig up the 8k nasa clip for testing.

[Klaus1189]

"Attachments Pending Approval"

please upload to external filehoster

[mariner]

1030 or 550?

The gt1030 and rx550 are the two most affordable HDMI2.0 cards on the market aimed at those on a tight budget running a low-power setup. The 1030 claims 8k support for both hevc10 and vp92, but only 4Khevc10 for the 550 (see previous post). Test clips used are the 24fps/66mbps/hevc NASA samples in 8K and 4K. No 8K vp92 clips are available atm.

The hardware decoding capability of the rx550 clearly lags behind the gt1030 on the basis of these tests. The anemic performance is a surprise, perhaps other users had better experience with this highly rated card.

8K
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8400 @ 2.66GHz
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GT 1030
Decoder: HEVCVideoExtension
Decoder Device: HEVC_VLD_Main10
Frames: 4535
FPS: 53.820 [30-56]
CPU Usage: 4 [1-9] %
GPU 3D Engine Usage: 0 [0-8] %
GPU VideoDecode Engine Usage: 98 [78-100] %


4K
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8400 @ 2.66GHz
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GT 1030
Decoder: HEVCVideoExtension
Decoder Device: HEVC_VLD_Main10
Frames: 4535
FPS: 164.349 [118-189]
CPU Usage: 6 [3-12] %
GPU 3D Engine Usage: 0 [0-2] %
GPU VideoDecode Engine Usage: 97 [85-98] %

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E7600 @ 3.06GHz
GPU: Radeon RX550/550 Series
Decoder: HEVCVideoExtension
Decoder Device: HEVC_VLD_Main10
Frames: 4535
FPS: 72.404 [60-80]
CPU Usage: 35 [17-53] %
GPU 3D Engine Usage: 0 [0-4] %
GPU VideoDecode Engine Usage: 99 [84-100] %

[huhn]

the whole 900 series has HDMI 2.0 ports and the 960 and 950 have HEVC 10 bit decoder. used they should be cheaper the 1030 is bad at price performance ratio.

the polaris cards are well known to be able to reach up 60 FPS for HEVC 10 bit and in your case they didn't even reach that.

here is a vp9 profile 2 8k HDR video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ
the new navi cards are supposed to do that but to no ones surprise they can't.

polaris cards where very briefly shown with VP9 support which worked in hybrid using chrome turning the GPU into a heater for just playing a video(just use a CPU and forget the decoder) no one really cares and test this pretty useless feature.
i still love this blunt lie of an image: http://i.imgur.com/AaVqVKv.png

[NikosD]

The polaris cards are well known to be able to reach up 60 FPS for HEVC 10 bit and in your case they didn't even reach that. His numbers are 60/72/80 for 4K HEVC 10 bit, so he is fine as he can obviously hit 4K60 goal.

Here is a vp9 profile 2 8k HDR video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ

the new navi cards are supposed to do that but to no ones surprise they can't. Still no browser can do the trick ?
Edge, Chrome, Firefox ?
And what about Win 10 built-in "Movies something" player if you download the clip somehow ?
Although I think there is no way to grab the 8K60 VP92 files from YouTube.

[huhn]

AMD has some special needs anyway:
https://abload.de/img/amdatitsbestwtjpl.png
how could they even mess this up?

even in a browser the 8k clip is software. and even if it would work with one application that doesn't change anything it has to work in any that's what spec are for.

[NikosD]

AMD has some special needs anyway: This screenshot is one of the weirdest ever posted here.
There is a 55% video encoding figure, instead of decoding.
The Ethernet figure is huge ~57 Mbps, but stats of YouTube are really extreme.
I can see there an almost 168 Mbps bandwidth, if I'm not mistaken.
How fast is your internet line and what kind ?
Do you have fiber ?

[huhn]

200 mbit don't really care about more i'm pretty sure i could get 400 if not 1000 mbit for the same money but not risking my ipv4.
it's a coax cable connection and at some point fiber in the "middle of nature".

the point is AMD reports encoding... i simply can't blame microsoft for this it works fine with nvidia and intel.

[Klaus1189]

Where do you live, that there is 1000 Mbit/s available? What happens if you are risking ipv4? Then ipv6? What downsides comes with it?

[huhn]

last post about internet.
1000 mbit:
https://www.unitymedia.de/privatkunden/kombipakete/2play/


you always have an ipv4 address but old internet connection can have a not shared one so you can for example host a game server with ipv4 which is not really possible with a shared ipv4 address.
if an shared ipv4 address get blocked all user that share this ipv4 address are blocked for that service and it is shared with easily 1000+ user if not 10000+.
it will be utterly irrelevant in the future and ipv6 will work for everything.

[NikosD]

My two cents for my Internet and please don't make this thread an Internet connection speed survey.

I have a VDSL2- FTTC (Fiber To The Cabinet) 50Mbps connection since late 2015 and two months ago 100Mbps and 200Mbps became available to me, as the cabinet is about 10 meters away from the building, but they are both really expensive.

FTTH (Fiber To The Home) at 1000 Mbps is very expensive and very rare here, so I have to wait a little more for 200 Mbps with a reasonable price and probably a lot more for 1 Gbps.

[littleD]

Amd drivers are usually the mess. They can enable some features, because they announced so, but later disable, because not working as intended or not fully compliant, or they just give up.

Can anybody share ultimate 8K60fps HDR video Clip?

1Gbit is not premium here anymore. Its available for home already. We have tests 2 and 5 Gbit.

[DMU]

VP9.2 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=12-KIpCd5unep03Y0FoIgLyaABN3v1CAZ)

[huhn]

that's 4k and you have a ton of GPU load that shouldn't be there.

[NikosD]

Intel Gen12/Xe GPU in Tiger Lake supports HEVC 12-bit, 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 fixed function hardware decoding. ...and VP9 12bit 4:2:2 & 4:4:4.
Interesting, it reached Turing's decoding features.
We have to wait for decoding speed and I'm interested in HW encoding quality too of Intel Gen12.
But of course Ampere is going to be announced in less than a month with probably a new decoder/ encoder.
Could Ampere's decoder support AV1 decoding in pure fixed-function HW ?
Will see..

[NikosD]

Huge upgrade for Intel architecture, implementing the 10nm Tiger Lake to 14nm, as Rocket Lake.

But we haven't seen Comet Lake yet, so what is happening inside Intel nowadays ?

According to Wiki, Tiger Lake supports:
HEVC 12-bit, 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 fixed-function hardware decoding &
VP9 12-bit & 4:4:4 fixed-function hardware decoding.

Now, that Videocardz leak, adds AV1 too.

And all of these in late 2020 without even Comet Lake out yet?

Don't think so...

[sol-compiler]

Having problems with 50/60fps 4k HEVC decoding using Intel Graphics HD 630 in LAV video decoder using D3D11 copyback in conjunction with an Nvidia GPU for MadVR. 4k30 works fine. Is there an inherent bandwidth limit to the Intel+Nvidia combination or is it a software issue that might be fixed? Thanks

[littleD]

Do not use dx11 copyback. It is slow on intel. Use instead dx11 "native" or rather Automatic option. If You would still have problem, then reply with more information.

[aufkrawall]

He can only use copyback with the IGP as it seems the display is connected to the dGPU.
Copyback puts additional load on the GPU, it's simply too much for the IGP with that high resolution and frame rate.

[NikosD]

Having problems with 50/60fps 4k HEVC decoding using Intel Graphics HD 630 in LAV video decoder using D3D11 copyback in conjunction with an Nvidia GPU for MadVR. What is your nVidia GPU ?
If it supports 4K HEVC decoding in HW, I would try to do everything on dGPU, leaving Intel's iGPU outside.
Is it a laptop with Optimus ?
If not, try to disable iGPU from BIOS to save system RAM and try again with nVidia only.

[littleD]

Having problems with 50/60fps 4k HEVC decoding using Intel Graphics HD 630 in LAV video decoder using D3D11 copyback in conjunction with an Nvidia GPU for MadVR. 4k30 works fine. Is there an inherent bandwidth limit to the Intel+Nvidia combination or is it a software issue that might be fixed? Thanks
He can only use copyback with the IGP as it seems the display is connected to the dGPU.
Copyback puts additional load on the GPU, it's simply too much for the IGP with that high resolution and frame rate.Right. I misinterpeted the quiestion. I have the same. To make nvidia work with madvr at conunction with intel dxva decoding i need to use dx11 copyback too. The bad thing is that copyback itself is taxing memory bus. I tested yesterday, cannot pass 4k30fps with fluid playback.

What is your nVidia GPU ?
If it supports 4K HEVC decoding in HW, I would try to do everything on dGPU, leaving Intel's iGPU outside.
Is it a laptop with Optimus ?
If not, try to disable iGPU from BIOS to save system RAM and try again with nVidia only.Some optimus systems like mine for egzample do not have available hardware decoding on dedicated nvidi gpu unfortunately.

[NikosD]

This is the end of the first era of "Ryzen Effect".

On January 2017 Intel said to the world that the best desktop processor was Core i7 - 7700K a 4C/8T CPU at 350$
On March 2017 AMD with Zen architecture and Ryzen implementation destroyed 6 years of Core iX pattern with its multi-core, multi-threaded approach.

A lot of people thought that Intel could react with a "secret weapon" as we were all thinking that a lot of processing power was left on the table from Intel during all those years 2011 - 2017.

Comet Lake-S even using 14nm (++...+) is essentially a Skylake architecture of 2015 and it's the end of this particular road for Intel.

A 10C/20T Intel CPU of ~500$ in 2020 versus a 10C/20T Intel CPU of 1700$ in 2017 is the maximum gain for the user after AMD's Ryzen arrival.

Now the gap closes in all desktop sections Core i3 vs Ryzen 3, Core i5 vs Ryzen 5, Core i7/i9 vs Ryzen 7/9 besides the top 16C/32T

But from now on Intel has no other moves, regarding 14nm and Skylake architecture.
Comet Lake-S is the "all in", last card of Intel.

Next step is either delivering a real new 10nm architecture for the desktop or having the fate of AMD's rough years 2010 - 2017.

We' ll see...

[Lumiel]

Hey guys, I almost forgot what I wanted to say after 5 days of waiting :( Basically I was just wondering what is the status of VP9 Hardware Decoding for AMD 5700 XT (Navi)? I did some research last week and I noticed that it's not working on most software or it's slow. It looks like that only Microsoft has a fast implementation (Edge and Movies & TV) and it is either not supported or dropping a lot of frames on other browsers and media players, both on Windows and Linux (MPV - MPC-HC - VLC). I also noticed that Microsoft was recommending to use Media Foundation (via IMFTransform) for implementing VP9 HW decoding but I did search in LAV filters Github and it seems there are no plans for supporting it?
Is there any way I could help with testing and debugging? I've also downloaded DXVA checker but I see the checkbox for Hardware VP9 is not selected for some reason.

In theory the HW decoder should support just 8K@24 but Microsoft implementation is pushing it near 60FPS. Sorry if it's the wrong topic but I already saw some posts about it here and I was curious what's keeping most players behind.

[NikosD]

Basically I was just wondering what is the status of VP9 Hardware Decoding for AMD 5700 XT (Navi)? I don't have a Navi card but I tried to help asking AMD here:
https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AMF/issues/186
Read the conversation there and take a look at that GitHub forum to see if anything new has appeared.

Maybe @huhn knows more.

[Lumiel]

I don't have a Navi card but I tried to help asking AMD here:
https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AMF/issues/186
Read the conversation there and take a look at that GitHub forum to see if anything new has appeared.

Maybe @huhn knows more.

Hi NikosD, thanks, I found this topic after I already read that Github issue, and I managed to play some videos with HW decoder like MichailAMD was saying, with Movies & TV. MPC-HC only works with CPU decoding, and I think MPV is working with VAAPI on Linux but drops frames a lot on higher FPS videos (which is OK I guess since Navi shouldn't support more than 8k@24 anyway)

[NikosD]

Hi NikosD, thanks, I found this topic after I already read that Github issue, and I managed to play some videos with HW decoder like MichailAMD was saying, with Movies & TV. MPC-HC only works with CPU decoding, and I think MPV is working with VAAPI on Linux but drops frames a lot on higher FPS videos (which is OK I guess since Navi shouldn't support more than 8k@24 anyway)

So, it seems that nobody has managed to build a DirectShow decoder and you need a MediaFoundationTransform decoder.
That's bad because only Microsoft apps can provide that.

If I were you, I would try PotPlayer as a final move.

[Lumiel]

So, it seems that nobody has managed to build a DirectShow decoder and you need a MediaFoundationTransform decoder.
That's bad because only Microsoft apps can provide that.

Why is that? I know nothing about encoders but it looks to me MFT is available to everyone? I don't even own an 8k monitor, I'm just trying to figure out if I can help somehow to help other people to make it work with theirs, plus I don't like the amount of misinformation available for Navi, so I'm trying to clear that up, if possible.

LAV filters seems to already use an IMFTransform (https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/search?q=IMFTransform&unscoped_q=IMFTransform) for other codecs.

[huhn]

the driver is buggy.

it reports that it only supports macroblock mode while you have to support raw bitstream mode so a correctly coded DXVA2 implantation will not use it. the problem is raw bitstream mode works totally fine they just flag it wrong mpc-be internal decoder isn't checking or ignoring it and it works fine.

and even if it works it still shows up as encoding. AMD doesn't care that's what you should take from this.
i can only recommend to avoid AMD they don't deserve any support anymore. i talked directly with AMD about that the answer was "that doesn't sound important".

[Lumiel]

the driver is buggy.

it reports that it only supports macroblock mode while you have to support raw bitstream mode so a correctly coded DXVA2 implantation will not use it. the problem is raw bitstream mode works totally fine they just flag it wrong mpc-be internal decoder isn't checking or ignoring it and it works fine.

and even if it works it still shows up as encoding. AMD doesn't care that's what you should take from this.
i can only recommend to avoid AMD they don't deserve any support anymore. i talked directly with AMD about that the answer was "that doesn't sound important".

It might be "buggy" but it works with other software? I can understand if developers don't want to support it but from what I see it works fine. Microsoft is using it just fine. Browsers are using it but not in an optimal way. What if it shows as encoding? It shows encoding on my machine too but that's just a sensor. Recording with OBS works fine as well with AMF.

We can argue all you want but if you say AMD doesn't care I can also say that developers don't seem to care. I'm here to discuss it and find solutions though, not start a flame war.

[NikosD]

It might be "buggy" but it works with other software? Could you test MPC-BE and PotPlayer and report here about your findings ?

[clsid]

Try if it works with this LAV build:
vp9_dxva_test (https://www.sendspace.com/file/7h4o69)

[Lumiel]

Try if it works with this LAV build:
vp9_dxva_test (https://www.sendspace.com/file/7h4o69)

Thanks, unfortunately it doesn't. I can see more options now I believe, but still only copy-back detects (https://i.imgur.com/goks5jB.png) my Navi card. D3D11 in Automatic still uses CPU. Native can't detect (https://i.imgur.com/o9W3Zt7.png) the hardware. edit: I might be reading the menus wrong, in any case none of the options is using the GPU hardware decoding capability.

Could you test MPC-BE and PotPlayer and report here about your findings ?


I will test it now.

[Lumiel]

MPC-BE works fine, it's using 100% GPU, however it's very heavy for my PC. Almost everything else become unresponsive. This is probably because I'm testing a 60 FPS video while Navi supports 8k@24 fps. I will now test PotPlayer and edit the same post so I don't spam.

edit: PotPlayer works fine as well, a little less heavy than MPC-BE. Some stats (https://i.imgur.com/0qc6AIB.png) from Potplayer. So at least I know there are some players that support my GPU :) thanks NikosD

p.s the smoothest experience is 100% still with Movies & TV though, I can also see about 3% CPU usage along with 100% GPU usage. That's as far my knowledge goes on the issue :p

[huhn]

We can argue all you want but if you say AMD doesn't care I can also say that developers don't seem to care. I'm here to discuss it and find solutions though, not start a flame war.

if you have to break the spec to make it works it's clearly an issue with AMD. this all has been tested month ago and reported to AMD and there answer was pretty much we don't care. at what point can i say they don't care?

nev was not willing to add this yet.
and why does it work with other software like video app it doesn't use DXVA2.

you can read more here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1899136#post1899136

[Lumiel]

if you have to break the spec to make it works it's clearly an issue with AMD. this all has been tested month ago and reported to AMD and there answer was pretty much we don't care. at what point can i say they don't care?

nev was not willing to add this yet.
and why does it work with other software like video app it doesn't use DXVA2.

you can read more here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1899136#post1899136

Thanks for the link, that's why I came here to learn more about the issue. As I said I'm OK with devs not wanting to add exemptions etc, and I'm happy at least I have an alternative to use my card now. Maybe it will be fixed by AMD at some point.

[NikosD]

p.s the smoothest experience is 100% still with Movies & TV though, I can also see about 3% CPU usage along with 100% GPU usage. That's as far my knowledge goes on the issue :p You can reach AMD writing under my topic at GitHub to MichaelAMD and tell them that according to the developers the

"DXVA VP9 specification states that "ConfigBitstreamRaw" should always be 1 for VP8/9"

and their driver doesn't comply.

Now, using your GPU at 100% can make your GUI - Windows - feel sluggish.

I would like you to open Task Manager of Windows 10 and see the GPU video decoder usage during VP9 8K playback with both DS Players (PotPlayer and MPC-BE) and the MFT Player (Movies & TV)

In pure DXVA2 native mode or D3D11 native mode, the GPU usage should be real low and the HW video decoder usage should be close to 100% while CPU should be low too.

Can you test DXVA Checker in benchmark mode in pure hardware decoding mode renderless (not playback) using MPC-BE filters ? (you have to install them separately as DS filters)

Also, I would like you to post some VP9 4K results regarding video performance (FPS, GPU usage) with both DS and MFT decoders.

[Lumiel]

I would like you to open Task Manager of Windows 10 and see the GPU video decoder usage during VP9 8K playback with both DS Players (PotPlayer and MPC-BE) and the MFT Player (Movies & TV)

In pure DXVA2 native mode or D3D11 native mode, the GPU usage should be real low and the HW video decoder usage should be close to 100% while CPU should be low too.

Sorry for confusing you, by GPU usage I meant the HW video decoder.

MPC-BE: HW decoder 100% - GPU D3D Usage 19% - GPU memory controller 4% - GPU memory usage 1500MB - CPU 0%
PotPlayer: HW decoder 100% - GPU D3D Usage 19% - GPU memory controller 5% - GPU memory usage 1600MB - CPU 0.8%
Movies & TV: HW decoder 100% - GPU D3D Usage 13% - GPU memory controller 25% - GPU memory usage 1992 MB - CPU 1.2%



Can you test DXVA Checker in benchmark mode in pure hardware decoding mode renderless (not playback) using MPC-BE filters ? (you have to install them separately as DS filters)

Also, I would like you to post some VP9 4K results regarding video performance (FPS, GPU usage) with both DS and MFT decoders.

I'm not sure how to do all that... but I can give it a try.

[NikosD]

Sorry for confusing you, by GPU usage I meant the HW video decoder.
Thanks for the results.
Then you are pushing your HW decoder to its limit.

But, Windows GUI has nothing to do with that and everything should be normal with such low GPU and CPU usage.

[Lumiel]

So I've downloaded a 4K video but DXVA checker only shows CPU support. I don't think I can force it somehow to work with a Navi GPU.

[huhn]

windwos media foundation does this:
youtube UHD 60 HDR.
VP9 profile2 103 122 137 9% CPU 100 % video encode engine.

edit: 8k runs at about 40 FPS i didn't finish the run that would take a long time. about the same CPU usages more then 1 thread.

the very high CPU usages is very odd:
https://abload.de/img/veryhighcpuusageerkpg.png

these test are done without loading the radeon control panel or what it'S name is now to avoid issues.
But, Windows GUI has nothing to do with that and everything should be normal with such low GPU and CPU usage.

this just happens from time to time up to this day it is recommended to disable hardware acceleration in browser and programs like discord. it was much worse in the past.

[aufkrawall]

I suggest some Navi user to report the bug demonstrated with ffplay to ffmpeg. If it gets closed because the workaround is rejected, one could still point that to AMD.
Not that any hopes would be justified, but...

[DMU]

Maybe it will be fixed by AMD at some point.
I do not advise you to hope so. They will not do anything themselves until you force them. AMD has some kind of problem with flags in the software. An example (https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AGS_SDK/issues/33) was the missing BT.2020 flag in their private API - AGS, which did not allow HDR content to be correctly played using madVR. I spent a lot of time to sort out the problem and describe it to them. It took even more time to explain this to them. And if not for the community (thanks to mclingo, aka stoolzo), AMD owners still watched HDR in the BT.709 color space. If you decide to write to them, be sure to let them know what official standards they violate.

[clsid]

Try if it works with this LAV build:
vp9_dxva_test (https://www.sendspace.com/file/7h4o69)Can anyone else test this as well? It was patched to allow ConfigBitstreamRaw=0 for VP9, so I was hoping it would work.

A good additional place to submit bug reports is in the driver feedback threads on Reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/g6t1ih/radeon_software_adrenalin_2020_edition_2042/). A few guys from AMD are active there.

[huhn]

sorry doesn't work for me too.

[clsid]

new test build (https://www.sendspace.com/file/ul7slh)
the value was checked in ffmpeg code as well

[huhn]

test build 2 works i double checked test build 1 it doesn't work.
at the point of writing i only tested vp9 profile 2.

[DMU]

test build 2 works i double checked test build 1 it doesn't work.
at the point of writing i only tested vp9 profile 2.

I confirm. Tested on profiles 9.0 and 9.2

[Lumiel]

test build 2 works i double checked test build 1 it doesn't work.
at the point of writing i only tested vp9 profile 2.

This works for me too. However, HW decoder only reaches up to 94.5% - GPU memory controller 5% - D3D Usage 19% and there are some dropped frames even for 4K.

Also 4K HDR has washed out colors. I'm using this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1-Jmq7BLFE), and tested 8K@60 4K@30 4K@60 HDR

PotPlayer reports it as SMPTE ST 2086 - HDR10 compatible - Color primaries BT.2020

Feel free to ask for more tests :)

example (https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AGS_SDK/issues/33) was the missing BT.2020 flag in their private API - AGS, which did not allow HDR content to be correctly played using madVR.

oh, I guess this must be related to what I just typed :D

[NikosD]

DXVA Checker supports it and Windows too, but it's more important to be hardware supported.

Besides Intel Xe inside Intel's iGPU of Tiger Lake and Rocket Lake and Intel's dGPU of course, nVidia hasn't mentioned anything yet for Ampere regarding AV1 and AMD for RDNA2.

Let's hope that ALL three release their new 2020 architectures with HW AV1 fixed-function decoder inside.

[nevcairiel]

Nvidia Ampere has newer generation hardware decoder but it's unclear whether GA100 has the same Turing Feature Set J decoder or newer Feature Set K decoder and no mention of AV1 either.

The GA100 media block appears to be the Turing version, since that already got HEVC 4:4:4 (and V100 did not have it). Just more of them.

That ultimately doesn't mean much for the consumer cards though, thats different chips and could get a newer media engine, since its also 6 months later at that point.

[Lumiel]

windwos media foundation does this:
youtube UHD 60 HDR.
VP9 profile2 103 122 137 9% CPU 100 % video encode engine.

edit: 8k runs at about 40 FPS i didn't finish the run that would take a long time. about the same CPU usages more then 1 thread.

the very high CPU usages is very odd:
https://abload.de/img/veryhighcpuusageerkpg.png


Did you do anything special to be able to run dxva checker benchmarks on GPU? It isn't working for me and I've contacted bluesky and he doesn't know either. I've tried all versions

[huhn]

no.
i start the program load the file and that's it.

[Lumiel]

no.
i start the program load the file and that's it.

thanks. There must be something wrong with my Windows installation. VP9 decoder shows like this (https://i.imgur.com/Xhmq4fX.jpg). Everything else works though, except DXVA cheker.

[huhn]

this page is the same for me but i don't understand why you care about that page.

just load a file and test it if it's not going to use hardware it's going to use software.

just use a webm or mkv container and it should work just fine.

[Lumiel]

this page is the same for me but i don't understand why you care about that page.

I'm just trying to understand what dxva checker isn't recognizing.


just load a file and test it if it's not going to use hardware it's going to use software.

just use a webm or mkv container and it should work just fine.

That's the thing, it doesn't. It only uses CPU. Every other software works fine, browsers included.

[littleD]

Test dxva checker with dx11 modes.

DXVA2 suprisingly is slow (no hardware support?) on my system but it may be that MFt use only dxva11.

Also your sytem must have MFT mkv or mp4 splitter (to use along with MFT microsoft decoder).

[huhn]

if you don't use a workaround hack or what ever you want to call it. it doesn't work with DXVA2 if you follow the spec.

[Lumiel]

Test dxva checker with dx11 modes

Surprisingly, it's working today with D3D11. I had reinstalled some Windows extension libraries yesterday so I'm not sure if that made any difference.

I see about 42 FPS with a 8K @ 60 VP9 video which I think is normal for this GPU. GPU memory utilization is 17% with DXVA checker - and about 25% with Movies & TV. I'm not sure how to see how many FPS Movies & TV produces.

[littleD]

Surprisingly, it's working today with D3D11. I had reinstalled some Windows extension libraries yesterday so I'm not sure if that made any difference.

I see about 42 FPS with a 8K @ 60 VP9 video which I think is normal for this GPU. GPU memory utilization is 17% with DXVA checker - and about 25% with Movies & TV. I'm not sure how to see how many FPS Movies & TV produces.Official amd whitepaper says max 8k 24 fps 8/10 bit decoding for vp9. I see no way to find movie and tv app fps. Msi Afterburner does not work here.

[PCU]

did you guys benchmarked recent version of mainconcept hevc directshow decoder? i've heard that the hwa version hevc decoder (not directshow one) that adobe used in media encoder & premiere pro is now so much faster. (it's mainconcept)

[NikosD]

did you guys benchmarked recent version of mainconcept hevc directshow decoder? i've heard that the hwa version hevc decoder (not directshow one) that adobe used in media encoder & premiere pro is now so much faster. (it's mainconcept) I have a problem with my tablet and while waiting for the new one, I don't visit often doom9 using a browser - Tapatalk is very convenient.

It seems that Mainconcept provides a 60 days free trial of their HEVC SDK (probably for both encoding and decoding) but after that period, you need a license obviously as it is a professional product.

We are not very interested in professional SW here.

[PCU]

i've tried MainConcept TotalCode Studio & it is using directshow & supports acceleration for decoding.
did you tired it?:
https://www.mainconcept.com/products/for-professionals/vod-transcoding/totalcode-studio.html
yes you're right about pro decoder, but imagine it's pro decoder.
so it's a no...

[charliebaby]

Me Benchmark Ryzen Threadripper 2990wx encoder x265 PLACEBO :)

https://i.goopics.net/yWoZD.png

https://i.goopics.net/Z0mqG.png

[sylph0001]

Hi guys, just wondering if the HEVC Video Entension released by Microsoft has been tested in any term?
Also do you know if it's possible for 3rd pty players to use that on HEVC playback? This is because I can't find any item related to it from potplayer's/MPC-HC's system filter/decoder list, while I'm sure the HEVC video extension is installed on my pc...
Thanks

[clsid]

That is a Media Foundation decoder and can only be used by applications that use MF.
The players you mentioned do not use MF, they use DirectShow filters.

[sylph0001]

That is a Media Foundation decoder and can only be used by applications that use MF.
The players you mentioned do not use MF, they use DirectShow filters.

it's a pity to hear that...
i cant understand why MS separated the MF environment from outsiders which makes their long term effort on DirectShow environment useless.

[huhn]

opensource decoder are usually faster anyway.

older version have been tested and they are not impressive. only when HEVC was fresh the microsoft decoder was faster in 32 bit a lot has changed since then but not for the microsoft decoder.

[nevcairiel]

i cant understand why MS separated the MF environment from outsiders which makes their long term effort on DirectShow environment useless.

Anyone can use Media Foundation, its not "separated from outsiders". Its just that rarely anyone does, except MS itself in the Movies & TV app.

[littleD]

Me Benchmark Ryzen Threadripper 2990wx encoder x265 PLACEBO :)

https://i.goopics.net/yWoZD.png

https://i.goopics.net/Z0mqG.png
Meine Gott.
Why placebo.

[NikosD]

Hi guys, just wondering if the HEVC Video Entension released by Microsoft has been tested in any term?
You can test it using DXVA Checker both in SW and HW mode, but it's been a while last time I remember checking it for myself.
When I decide to upgrade to Windows May 2020 version, I'll probably give it a try again.
But the only real player that you could actually use it is Movies & TV, so it has very limited use as all previous guys have already said.

[PCU]

@NikosD do you prefer pro decoders or open source decoders?

[sylph0001]

opensource decoder are usually faster anyway.

older version have been tested and they are not impressive. only when HEVC was fresh the microsoft decoder was faster in 32 bit a lot has changed since then but not for the microsoft decoder.

Thanks for bringing back the things about older versions.
I heard sayings that new version of HEVC video extension has a surprisingly high performance. I tried it on an old small rig and seems HEVC VE on HD530 runs much faster than Lentoid either on HD530 or GTX960m...
Still not sure if the outperformance only shows up on older hardwares...

[sylph0001]

You can test it using DXVA Checker both in SW and HW mode, but it's been a while last time I remember checking it for myself.
When I decide to upgrade to Windows May 2020 version, I'll probably give it a try again.
But the only real player that you could actually use it is Movies & TV, so it has very limited use as all previous guys have already said.

I strongly wish I could give better test than a brief try but not enough rigs around for the time being... but will definitely look forward to your analyze
On my old rig, the HEVC VE occasionally hangs on the middle of a UHD 120fps clip in Movie&TV; I tried the similar clips on the old school WMP who claims it also uses the HEVC VE although being replaced by Movie&TV, the hanging never happened then... but still may need more tests to confirm...

[huhn]

Thanks for bringing back the things about older versions.
I heard sayings that new version of HEVC video extension has a surprisingly high performance. I tried it on an old small rig and seems HEVC VE on HD530 runs much faster than Lentoid either on HD530 or GTX960m...
Still not sure if the outperformance only shows up on older hardwares...

the HD 530 can do HEVC in hardware.
so you are not really comparing it because the GPU is used. the decoder you should compare it to is ffmpeg and both without hardware decoding.

[NikosD]

On my old rig, the HEVC VE occasionally hangs on the middle of a UHD 120fps clip in Movie&TV; I tried the similar clips on the old school WMP who claims it also uses the HEVC VE although being replaced by Movie&TV, the hanging never happened then... but still may need more tests to confirm... What is your Windows OS version ?
I'm not sure that WMP uses MFT filters at all or in higher priority than DS filters.
Although there was a time IIRC that could use both, first priority MFT decoders and if failed or non-existent it was falling back to DS filters.
Probably LAV filters or other DS decoders installed on your old rig are doing the job of HEVC decoding.

[NikosD]

I'm eager to read about AV1 decoding performance of Xe, but unfortunately I can't see how could I test it.

I hope someone will buy a laptop or desktop processor with Xe inside and AMD/ nVidia jump to AV1 wagon sooner rather than later.

[NikosD]

I had high hopes that maybe after years and years the new AMD RDNA2 GPU architecture of Navi 21 could beat Ampere or at least be very close to Ampere GPU of nVidia.

The last rumors regarding Navi 31, the next next generation RDNA3 are not good regarding RDNA2, it could be a sign that RDNA2 didn't make it.

Ampere for gaming will be released on early September and Navi 21 for gaming probably around November.

So, let's wait just a few months more and hope that both of them have added AV1 fixed-function decoder like Intel did with Tigerlake launching September 2nd but only as internal iGPU for start.

[aufkrawall]

Funny: For once it isn't madVR that is affected by driver bugs, but mpv: I'm getting delayed frames with D3D11VA Polaris and recent drivers + 144Hz display. AMD Windows driver team did it again.
It (of course) works fine on Linux Xorg with VAAPI...

[NikosD]

Rumors are at highest level, but nVidia offered yesterday an official date of Ampere:

August 31th.

Latest leaks are talking about 20GB and even 24GB VRAM for Ampere.
AMD is at 16GB for RDNA2.

AMD is going to beat 3080 but above this, it's very difficult.

There is a marketing game or war right now and it's not easy to find out what is really going on with so many info.

But the day is coming.

[el Filou]

So Tiger Lake will have 8K60 decode but no HDMI 2.1. :(
I know it's a laptop chip so it's not that useful, but it would be on something like a NUC. It's a pity they're still lagging one generation behind what the best TVs are capable of when it comes to HDMI.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15973/the-intel-xelp-gpu-architecture-deep-dive-building-up-from-the-bottom/6

[Yups]

Renoir doesn't support HDMI 2.1 either though and I don't think it's a big deal for Tigerlake-U. 4k devices are super premium and rare, out of 500 Icelake devices there are like 10 devices with 4K displays. Adding HDMI 2.1 would have increased the die size quite a lot for a small nice, this is a bad return on investment.

[NikosD]

He probably said that combined with the ability to decode VP9/HEVC streams up to 8K60 fps.

Renoir doesn't have that fast decoder.

Anyway, Tigerlake is well described, the only thing left is to measure decoding performance.
I think is going to be faster than Turing in both VP9/ HEVC and with additional support of AV1 HW decoding.

I can't wait to see nVidia's GeForce Ampere card supporting PCIe v4.0 and HDMI 2.1 along with a new decoder capable of AV1 8K HW decoding and faster 8K HEVC/VP9 decoding.

Hope exactly the same for RDNA2.

Of course the same goes for HW encoding and gaming performance.

Around the end of this year, all options for CPUs (Rocket Lake vs Zen 3) and GPUs (Ampere vs RDNA2) will be on the table for Cyberpunk 2077 :) and MS Flight Sim 2020 :)

[NikosD]

For the first time in recent history that I remember, nVidia seems to be afraid of AMD and that's good because also for the first time, prices look reasonable.

The presentation from leather-jacket man was mainly marketing and less technical and too short.

It seems that Big Navi and next-gen consoles pushed hard nVidia.

By eliminating Titan series and making it a Geforce 3090 card with 1500$ price it seems that this card will be unreachable by AMD, but 3080 will have competition.

So, PCIe v4.0 is here like HDMI 2.1 and AV1 decoding.

Fingers crossed for Big Navi.

[chros]

"presentation from leather-jacket" :D Yes, you know, just like one of us :D
Yes, I agree, although prices are still (very?) high for me. I'll be curious about AV1 decoding when time comes...

[wanezhiling]

I just need a GT3005 card.:p

[chros]

Or 3000.01 :D

[NikosD]

Has anyone kept a recent copy of MS HEVC Video Extension decoder or know a way to download it for free ?

Recent changes to MS policy prohibit free download of the HEVC decoder, even from the device manufacturer page:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/hevc-video-extensions-from-device-manufacturer/9n4wgh0z6vhq?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

[Klaus1189]

I am not sure, but I think I found it (https://www.free-codecs.com/hevc_video_extension_download.htm)

[NikosD]

It works like a charm, thank you!

[wanezhiling]

who has 8k hevc 8-bit 60p clips?

[VictorLS]

who has 8k hevc 8-bit 60p clips?
I have not - I have just 4K H265 60fps 8bit
But if you really need 8K H265 60fps 8bit do it by yourself

[littleD]

Interesting. Vulkan +Video hardware Acceleration.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Vulkan-Video-Provisional-Spec

[wanezhiling]

DXVA Checker 4.5.2 (https://bluesky-soft.com/en/DXVAChecker.html)

Version 4.5.2 (04/17/2021)
Fixed incorrect parameters when blitting in DXVA2 Video Processor under specific situations
(this:) (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1940592#post1940592))

[littleD]

https://www.saschawillems.de/blog/2021/04/24/vulkan-hardware-capability-viewer-3.01-released/

This version also adds support for the video decode and encode queue family flags that have been introduced with the provisional Vulkan Video acceleration extensions.

[nevcairiel]

Its important to note that Vulkan video acceleration currently only supports H264 and HEVC, so it still has ways to go to become even remotely viable by supporting a much wider variety of codecs that we all expect by now. :)

[pureocean]

The display times of subtitle lines don't usually occur in keyframes.

I can't read subtitle lines fast. I get back frequently when playback. When I jump to the previous/next line of the subtitle (HOME+END key in PotPlayer / CTRL+Left/Right Arrow key in mpv), I cannot tolerate a little lag of the frame refresh. Because of this reason I always turn off H/W (DXVA) for H264 decoding, which it causes the image to be slow displayed in Radeon R7 240.

Which of the both cards below that support H/W 1080p 10-bit HEVC decoding does the least latency when seeking non-keyframe, even if DXVA2/D3D11 is on?

Is GeForce GT 1030 or Radeon RX 550?

[huhn]

i can't remember anyone doing seek tests but polaris cards can barely do 60 FPS UHD meaning the nvidia cards are massively faster in terms of decoding but and here we go yet again i can remember a 1030 test and the Vram of that card can be a problem for real world playback.

if you want the fastest seeks a better CPU is what you want.

[Asmodian]

The DDR4 or GDDR5 GT 1030? If you do get a GT 1030 make sure it is not the DDR4 one, the memory is simply too slow for great hardware decoding (or great anything). Most listings do mention the type of memory used.

I agree with huhn, a faster CPU with software decoding is better for seeking.

supporting a much wider variety of codecs that we all expect by now.

:thanks:

[pureocean]

@huhn and @Asmodian,

Thank you both for your informations and advices.

I upgraded my old CPU (Phenom II X3) to Ryzen 5 3600 last summer. The non-keyframe seeking performance has really improved.

On my old CPU, non-keyframe seeking performance of FFMpeg-based decoders (LAV and MPC-BE's MPCVideoDec) was not good. That's why I was using Lentoid HEVC Decoder. I easily use LAV and MPCVideoDec on the Ryzen 5 3600. Moreover, in combination with MPC VideoRenderer and Bluesky Frame Rate Converter.

Actually, my R7 240 (https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/asus-r7-240-low-profile.b2487) is still enough for me. Recently I removed the fan jumper (noising). But the card came overheating when playing 10-bit HEVC 1080p. I replaced the fan. Also flashed the lastest VBIOS (https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/187194/asus-r7240-2048-150416).

AMD's Oland (GNC1.0 series, UVD 4) lacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Video_Decoder#Format_support) H/W 10-bit support. My goal to use DXVA2 / D3D11 in both H264 and HEVC without lag when non-keyframe seeking.

If I buy a new card, I will prefer GT 1030 (Of course, GDDR5 is very important. MPN Model: V809-2498R, GTIN/EAN: 4719072520113).

Also, Nvidia pays more attention to video codec decoding and encoding. They have documentation listing supported models for this.

https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-and-decode-gpu-support-matrix-new
https://docs.nvidia.com/video-technologies/video-codec-sdk/nvdec-application-note/
https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdk
https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/nvidia-ffmpeg-transcoding-guide/

They even recently added the Vulkan Video Hardware Acceleration mentioned here to the GT 1030 (https://vulkan.gpuinfo.org/displayreport.php?id=11106#extensions).

If I buy Geforce, I will be deprived of AMD's Fluid Motion but there are alternatives (madVR, SVP).

[mariner]

Greetings.

8K AV1: Intel Iris XE or UHD 750?

1. The built-in IRIS XE GPU of Tiger Lake 1165G7 has added support for 8K AV1 decoding. While decoder performance suggests it could handle it, playback performance struggled at 50fps. Does anyone have success with this? Would faster/more ram help? Memory used is 16GB 2666MHz DDR4.

2. Does the UHD 750 GPU have AV1 support? Would it perform better?

3. What about AMD GPU?

Thanks and best regards,

[v0lt]

2. Does the UHD 750 GPU have AV1 support? Would it perform better?
Intel UHD 750 supports AV1 decoding.
The adapter plays 4k AV1 10-bit HDR 60fps from YouTube stably.
I don't need 8k.

[clsid]

When support for a higher resolution gets added in a GPU decoder it is usually just 30 fps. Later generation then improves performance further to support 60 fps.

I doubt you will find 8k60 content beyond demo stuff. So who cares.

[mariner]

8K/60p AV1 HDR YT video: more testing with Iris XE Graphics

Thanks for the kind reply, v0lt and clsid.

1. While DXVAchecker struggled with 8K AV1 video, w10 built-in movies player handled it beautifully with 90% GPU usage. As the decoder used by both is presumably the same, does anyone have any insight how w10 managed this?

2. Potplayer's AV1 decoder could handle 4K AV1 video, but struggled at 8K.

3. LAV filters could not deal with even the 4K version as it doesn't seem to have AV1 decoding capability. As I'm new to using w10 for video playback, would appreciate any advice setting up the filter: Should DXVA2(native) or D3D11/Intel Iris XE Graphics be selected?

4. Any idea if UHD 750/770 would offer similar w10 performance?

5. What about RYZEN CPU?

Thanks and best regards,

[v0lt]

1. While DXVAchecker struggled with 8K AV1 video, w10 built-in movies player handled it beautifully with 90% GPU usage. As the decoder used by both is presumably the same, does anyone have any insight how w10 managed this?
1. What file did you play? (only a file and not a stream from the network)
2. Is it 8-bit or 10-bit?
3. How did you check the output frame rate?

[clsid]

LAV supports AV1 just fine.

The Intel driver does not support DXVA2 hardware acceleration for AV1 video. Only D3D11.

You must NOT select the GPU in the hardware acceleration settings because that forces copyback mode, which is slower. If you have two GPUs, then you can specify the default one in the Windows display settings.

You must also use a video renderer that supports D3D11 native mode and D3D11 processing. So you need to use MPC VR.

[mariner]

Thanks for the kind reply, clsid.

1. With MPC-VR is use, MPC can now play 4K AV1 YT video at 60fps. 8K is still a struggle at single digit fps. LAV filter setting is as follows, correct?

Hardware Decoder: D3D11
Hardware Device: Automatic (Native)

2. LAV filter does not show up as MF decoder in DXVA Checker, but as unsupported under DS. 4K AV1 video playback can only reach 40fps. Does this look correct?

3. v0lt has a question about how to check playback frame rate when using w10 movies player. Any one?

Thanks and best regards,

[v0lt]

3. v0lt has a question about how to check playback frame rate when using w10 movies player. Any one?
For Windows Media Player, you can use Fraps (https://fraps.com/).

[mariner]

8K/60p AV1 HDR YT video: web browser testing with Iris XE Graphics

1. Chrome will play 8K AV1 video at 60p with some dropped frames, but maintaining A/V sync. Performance is somewhat erratic: seems to be most well behaved when PC first booted up, and increased dropped frames if played in full screen. Not clear if it is hardware related. Anyone?

2. Firefox would not serve up the the HDR AV1 version despite claiming otherwise. Anyone have any success with firefox?

Many thanks and best regards,

[littleD]

New 101.0 firefox has improvements:
AV1 codec parameters are now properly parsed in media support queries. This means that MediaCapabilities.decodingInfo(), HTMLMediaElement.canPlayType(), and MediaSource.isTypeSupported() will now accurately report support for playback for AV1 sources based on the provided codec parameters. MediaCapabilities.decodingInfo() will also use the information to accurately report on "efficient decoding" of AV1 videos. For more information, see bug 1757861.

Not sure if this resolves anything on YT side.

[mariner]

Thanks for the kind reply, littleD.
Tried 101.0, no good. Any hidden setting in about:config that needs to be turned on?
It seems the issue is not codec. PQ/HLG clips are not available on YT when using FF. Incompatibility issue?
FTWAI, Edge can do AV1/HDR at 4K/60p.
Many thanks and best regards,

[mariner]

Chrome 8K60p AV1 video.
Apologies for posting 4k screencap in earlier post.:D

[Yups]

https://twitter.com/hjc4869/status/1541721105949331457


Arc A380 by far the fastest hardware decoder, nothing comes close. I think the decoder might be the same as in TGL or ADL iGPUs but the clock speed is so much higher (2450 Mhz Arc vs 1100 Mhz TGL in this test), although I don't know if the video playback clock speed on Arc is the same as the 3d clock speed.

[nevcairiel]

At some point speed really stops mattering, unless you make a media processing server. Also its hilarious that they compared to AMD cards, the worst contender in the decode lottery. :D

[P.J]

Which one is better for AV1? RTX 3050 vs RX 6600? :confused: