MPC-HC GothSync tryouts

[Jong]

I've been using the PDVD7 decoder, but I have the PDVD8 one too. I'll try that and see if there is a difference.

[THX-UltraII]

I just downloaded the GoithSync version of MPC-HC and read this post http://www.ostrogothia.com/?page_id=1216

However, it seems too technical for me so I would like to ask if you guys can help me on my way:

I ll explain how my system looks like in the first place:
As movie browser I use XBMC with MPC-HC as external player. The problem is that when I start a movie from within XB<C I NEED direct3D fullscreen or else the focus from XBMC gets lost. So I enabled this in the settings of MPC-HC. I use XP with SP3 and netfram 3.5 installed and I use EVR Custom. I do not use Reclock. I have a JVC RS2 projector. My videocard is the ATI HD4350 with the lastest driver installed. My ATI settings are 1920x1080@24Hz because I mostly watch 24fps material (.mkv files). As output for my sound I use SPDIF passthrough. I don t want to have a discussion about this but I want my receiver do the DTS/Dolby Digital decoding, so decoding done bt my HTPC is a no-go for me :)

I hope I have provided enough information but can you guys help my pick the best settings for the GothSync player?

Thanks

[Jong]

No PDVD8 decoder is just the same here. Looks like it is a fine timing thing. It happens much more easily here when D3D GUI is off, which it has to be for me. When D3D GUI is on it turns off the additional buffering which lets Reclock control the vsync. It still crashes with D3D GUI ON, but it seems to happen less frequently.

[ar-jar]

I just downloaded the GoithSync version of MPC-HC and read this post http://www.ostrogothia.com/?page_id=1216

However, it seems too technical for me so I would like to ask if you guys can help me on my way:

I ll explain how my system looks like in the first place:
As movie browser I use XBMC with MPC-HC as external player. The problem is that when I start a movie from within XB<C I NEED direct3D fullscreen or else the focus from XBMC gets lost. So I enabled this in the settings of MPC-HC. I use XP with SP3 and netfram 3.5 installed and I use EVR Custom. I do not use Reclock. I have a JVC RS2 projector. My videocard is the ATI HD4350 with the lastest driver installed. My ATI settings are 1920x1080@24Hz because I mostly watch 24fps material (.mkv files). As output for my sound I use SPDIF passthrough. I don t want to have a discussion about this but I want my receiver do the DTS/Dolby Digital decoding, so decoding done bt my HTPC is a no-go for me :)

I hope I have provided enough information but can you guys help my pick the best settings for the GothSync player?

Thanks

If you don't like tweaking too much, you should go for the Present at nearest vsync option in the Synchronization tab under Options. Leave the rest at their default values. Hit CTRL-J to see if you get fairly straight red and green lines in the graph. If not, pls post a screenshot and I'll see if I can help. -A

[tetsuo55]

DXVA mpeg2 isnt really required, even 1080p is relatively easy to decode.

We have talked to a dev who wants to get MPEG2 bitstream DXVA into MPC-HC.
We also know there are bugs with the internal MPEG2 decoder (but not sure what they are exactly)

Once both of these are fixed, and deinterlacing works, there will no longer be a reason not to use the internal decoder.

[THX-UltraII]

If you don't like tweaking too much, you should go for the Present at nearest vsync option in the Synchronization tab under Options. Leave the rest at their default values. Hit CTRL-J to see if you get fairly straight red and green lines in the graph. If not, pls post a screenshot and I'll see if I can help. -A

Ok, thank you!
So I checked the third option in the synchro options and enabled d3d. I do get sync problems. Can you make something of this?:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5313/naamloosmd.png (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/naamloosmd.png/)

[THX-UltraII]

btw. In the ATI settings the sync is on: ALWAYS OFF, UNLESS APPLICATION REQUIRES.

[Jong]

That sounds good. It is the hardware deinterlacing and (very very delicate) use of driver image enhancement that I want more than the acceleration of MPEG2, which as you say it quite easy.

I am sure you are right, it is possible for a combination of mixed navigator and decoder and renderer to cause problems. This proves it. But, as is also clear from the trunk, it does not have to be the case. Hopefully ar-jar can find the problem.

[Jong]

Ok, thank you!
So I checked the third option in the synchro options and enabled d3d. I do get sync problems. Can you make something of this?:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5313/naamloosmd.png (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/naamloosmd.png/)Have you still got Reclock vsync correction turn on?

[THX-UltraII]

heres a screenshot with VSync set to ALWAYS ON in the ATI settings:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/497/naamloosxpz.png (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/naamloosxpz.png/)

[tetsuo55]

@THX-UltraII > to my eyes your screenshot looks good, however the number of artifacts that occur when the vsync trips over itself is much higher than it should be.

You didnt seek right before that screenshot did you??

Did you make your screenshot like this, if not please upload another one:

open video, press CTRL+J, wait minimum of 5 seconds (so all lines are flat), press CTRL+R.
Now wait for for the spikes and then hit PRINTSCREEN.
The spikes should only occur when Sample paint time correction goes from 0 to 41 or viceversa

[THX-UltraII]

@Jong: I don t use ReClock anymore.

[THX-UltraII]

@THX-UltraII > to my eyes your screenshot looks good, however the number of artifacts that occur when the vsync trips over itself is much higher than it should be.

You didnt seek right before that screenshot did you??

Did you make your screenshot like this, if not please upload another one:

open video, press CTRL+J, wait minimum of 5 seconds (so all lines are flat), press CTRL+R.

Now wait for for the spikes and then hit PRINTSCREEN.

The spikes should only occur when Sample paint time correction goes from 0 to 41 or viceversa

I did exactly like you say and didnt seek at all.
Could it have something to do with the fact that I set my ATI to 1920x1080@24HZ and the movie is 23,976? (With ATI it is not possible to pick 1920x1080@23,976HZ).

Guys, keep in mind also that I use SPDIF and that my receiver does the decoding. Maybe this is important information, I don t know

[THX-UltraII]

I trying to help thinking:

Maybe it has something to do with the ATI setting 1920x1080@24HZ and should I try and pick 1920@1080@72HZ?

[tetsuo55]

Yes the tiny difference in rate should cause 1 artifact at each rollover (from 41 to 0 or 0 to 41)

Maybe Ar-Jar can see why you are getting so many artifacts at each rollover

What happens when you disable fillscreen D3D, if you open the file manually from mpc and go to fullscreen with the doubleclick or ALT+ENTER

[THX-UltraII]

What happens when you disable fillscreen D3D, if you open the file manually from mpc and go to fullscreen with the doubleclick or ALT+ENTER

This is what happens:


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2617/naamloosnw.png (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/naamloosnw.png/)

[tetsuo55]

What happens if you try the stable build instead of the private build

[THX-UltraII]

What happens if you try the stable build instead of the private build

I use the stable build and not the private

[tetsuo55]

ok try the private build lol

[ar-jar]

Ok, thank you!
So I checked the third option in the synchro options and enabled d3d. I do get sync problems. Can you make something of this?:


Does your projector sync to 48Hz? If it does, please try that refresh rate too! -A

[THX-UltraII]

ok try the private build lol

same happens

[THX-UltraII]

Does your projector sync to 48Hz? If it does, please try that refresh rate too! -A

o o , sorry m8, but I really don t know what you mean here.....:(

[tetsuo55]

o o , sorry m8, but I really don t know what you mean here.....:(1920x1080@48HZ
set that in the ati control panel

[THX-UltraII]

Again, don t know if the info is valuable, but here is a screenshot what happens with the option sync video to display (first option) is enabled and d3d fullscreen enabled. I played a movie for 5 min and don t see any ups or downs.



http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/1285/naamloosks.png (http://img2.imageshack.us/i/naamloosks.png/)

[THX-UltraII]

1920x1080@48HZ
set that in the ati control panel

Is is not selectable in the ATI panel:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3894/naamloosdu.png (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/naamloosdu.png/)

[ar-jar]

No PDVD8 decoder is just the same here. Looks like it is a fine timing thing. It happens much more easily here when D3D GUI is off, which it has to be for me. When D3D GUI is on it turns off the additional buffering which lets Reclock control the vsync. It still crashes with D3D GUI ON, but it seems to happen less frequently.

I think I have a clue about at least where to look. When you play your DVD, does it say "Frame cycle from video header: 0.000 ms"? (Second row in the OSD) -A

[tetsuo55]

I think I have a clue about at least where to look. When you play your DVD, does it say "Frame cycle from video header: 0.000 ms"? (Second row in the OSD) -Ai confirm all values in that line being 0 on my system

[ar-jar]

i confirm all values in that line being 0 on my system

What seems to happen is that the renderer is desperately trying to find the frame rate from the input pin as long as it is 0 but fails and eventually runs into a dead-lock of some kind. Some decoders don't report a correct refresh rate. The bug chase continues... -A

[THX-UltraII]

frame rate cycle from video header: 41.708ms | frame rate from video header 23.976fps (as you can see in my screenshots).

And what about my other screenshot with the option 1 enabled? Can t I use this one or do I need to let the decoding beeing done by my PC as a condition?

[Jong]

I think I have a clue about at least where to look. When you play your DVD, does it say "Frame cycle from video header: 0.000 ms"? (Second row in the OSD) -AYes :). Sounds like you are on to something!

[Jong]

Could it have something to do with the fact that I set my ATI to 1920x1080@24HZ and the movie is 23,976? (With ATI it is not possible to pick 1920x1080@23,976HZ).Is there not a 23Hz option? If so, this is what you want. Windows refresh rates are always rounded down when displayed in control panel or ccc.

@23.976Hz you should be able to use option 1.

[THX-UltraII]

Is there not a 23Hz option? If so, this is what you want. Windows refresh rates are always rounded down when displayed in control panel or ccc.

@23.976Hz you should be able to use option 1.

what you mean? There s no 23Hz option. Only, 24,25,30,50 etc.

I checked the first option and the green and red bars looks like the screenshot I posted 12:53.

However, you can also see there: ''Audio renderer is not matching rate''. What does this mean? Maybe this is why Ar-Jar told me to use option 'present at nearest vsync'

[Jong]

what you mean? There s no 23Hz option. Only, 24,25,30,50 etc.

I checked the first option and the green and red bars looks like the screenshot I posted 12:53.

However, you can also see there: ''Audio renderer is not matching rate''. What does this mean? Maybe this is why Ar-Jar told me to use option 'present at nearest vsync'Often there is a 23Hz option (which is really 23.976Hz) as well as a 24Hz one. Shame if you do not have it. Hopefully ar-jar can work on your problem.

[THX-UltraII]

thxz for all input guys (specially Jong and Ar-Jar). I ve done some more testing today and more questions rise up:

First of all, one and for all I want to know what to do with the vsync option in the ATI control panel: should I set this to always ON or always OFF? I still dont know that.

This afternoon I began with some tests. I reinstalled Reclock and found out some interesting things. I did a 2minutes test with a .mkv dts file set up reclock to passthrough so my receiver can do the decoding:
First thing you should know is that in this 2minutes test the red and green bars never went u or down, so I think thats a good thing correct?
You can also see () that the notification ''Audio renderer is not matching rate'' is gone now. This is strange to me because I configured ReClock to only pssthrough spdif and that is all he does. Anyway, I also see 5x sync adjustments. I this ok? Also would like to know if there are more non-normal things that happen.

thanks.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3183/naamlooscb.png (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/naamlooscb.png/)

[THX-UltraII]

one morre thing (for today :)): In the 'manual' I see this:

1.Open the View -> Options -> Playback -> Synchronization tab. Select Sync video to display. Frequency adjustment should be set to about 0.0012 (~0.12% of the nominal frequency), Target sync offset to 10 ms for a 50 Hz display refresh rate and 8 ms for a 60 Hz display, and Control limits to 2.0 ms. The sync options checkboxes are greyed out if you haven’t selected VMR9 or EVR as your renderer or if you haven’t closed the Options dialog in between or if there is an active playback (select File -> Close in that case).

does this mean that for Target Sync offset you can use 8ms for 60HZ, 10ms for 50HZ, 12ms for 40HZ, 14ms for 30HZ and approx. 15ms for my resolution 1920@1080@24HZ that my card sends out (and my JVC projector accepts)

[Jong]

ATI CCC should be set with Vsync "OFF unless app specifies".

Trying to help in ar-jars absence (sorry ar-jar and THX if I get anything wrong!!), but you should not be using "option 1" if using Reclock. In your latest screenshot it does look like the green line is slowly rising, which will lead to judder (and probably quite bad judder) when it gets to (about) 42ms. With such a large frame time this may well take more than 2 mins so your test was probably not sufficient.

In fact, if you are using Reclock with EVR in D3D mode you should be able to use Reclock vsync correction. Try it. Set the Reclock slider in the middle (for now) and look at your chart. Make sure vsync correction in EVR is enabled in Reclock. Make sure "D3D Full screen GUI" is turned OFF in MPC-HC. Turn off all of ar-jar's synchronisation options.

Failing that you will be back to using option 3, which may work with Reclock, but Reclock vsync really should work with your setup.

[noee]

I don't mean to be a contrarian here, but here's my set up using MPC-Goth:

Source material 23.976
ATI CCC Vsynch ON unless app specifies
HD2600XT 1080@24Hz
FFdshow decoders audio/video
Reclock vsynch turned off (all)
MPC EVR-CP, D3D NOT checked
Synch OPtion 1 (Synch video to display)

I get perfectly parallel red/green lines and zero glitches for a long, long time. Occasionally, the green line heads down towards the red line, but the the "magic" occcurs and they go back parallel and no judder, no glitches.

YMMV, but it works wonderfully here.

[ADude]

There is certainly no problem at all with using the Cyberlink decoder (7 or 8) with the trunk build.

Actually that is not true.

There are long-standing unfixed bugs in the bug tracker, relating to DVD menu highlight display that only occur with MPC-HC main build, Cyberlink decoder with DXVA turned on, and MS DVD Navigator.

[ADude]

I wanted to start from something that I understood.

I think that is a very important principle, one that needs to be followed more closely by everyone.

I have read various comments regarding all aspects of video/audio timing in HT-PCs by various developers, such as the developer of Reclock, by "he who cannot be named", by the main MPC-HC developers, by the Zoom Player developer, and the one thread that runs through it all is nobody entirely understands it.

Of course, there are people who understand it, they are professionals who work for AMD, Nvidia, Intel, MS, Dish Network, DirecTV, BSkyB, Comcast, ESPN, BBC, Toshiba, Sony, Samsung, Lucasarts and so forth.

With the approach of trying to patch various specific problem combinations, the inevitable result is that other combinations become broken.

I think that effort is wasted using that approach, and instead time and effort instead should be applied to learning more about how it actually works in professional and consumer applications.

I remember someone in one of these threads saying " I wonder how DBS Satellite boxes accomplish sync. " I think that is the sort of thing that people should be spending their time researching.

[Jong]

Actually that is not true.

There are long-standing unfixed bugs in the bug tracker, relating to DVD menu highlight display that only occur with MPC-HC main build, Cyberlink decoder with DXVA turned on, and MS DVD Navigator.Yeah, maybe I should have been clearer, sorry. Works perfectly with VMR9 on XP.

[Jong]

I don't mean to be a contrarian here, but here's my set up using MPC-Goth:

Source material 23.976
ATI CCC Vsynch ON unless app specifies
HD2600XT 1080@24Hz
FFdshow decoders audio/video
Reclock vsynch turned off (all)
MPC EVR-CP, D3D NOT checked
Synch OPtion 1 (Synch video to display)

I get perfectly parallel red/green lines and zero glitches for a long, long time. Occasionally, the green line heads down towards the red line, but the the "magic" occcurs and they go back parallel and no judder, no glitches.

YMMV, but it works wonderfully here.Well this is where we need ar-jar's input. I still use Reclock to do it all, so I am just repeating ar-jar when he says he thinks option 1 and Reclock will clash. Maybe I should do some tests on this!

[Jong]

I think that is a very important principle, one that needs to be followed more closely by everyone.

I have read various comments regarding all aspects of video/audio timing in HT-PCs by various developers, such as the developer of Reclock, by "he who cannot be named", by the main MPC-HC developers, by the Zoom Player developer, and the one thread that runs through it all is nobody entirely understands it.

Of course, there are people who understand it, they are professionals who work for AMD, Nvidia, Intel, MS, Dish Network, DirecTV, BSkyB, Comcast, ESPN, BBC, Toshiba, Sony, Samsung, Lucasarts and so forth.

With the approach of trying to patch various specific problem combinations, the inevitable result is that other combinations become broken.

I think that effort is wasted using that approach, and instead time and effort instead should be applied to learning more about how it actually works in professional and consumer applications.

I remember someone in one of these threads saying " I wonder how DBS Satellite boxes accomplish sync. " I think that is the sort of thing that people should be spending their time researching.Great, maybe that is a positive contribution you could make to the group.

The fact is that if the professionals knew how to make it all work dependably on a PC we would not be having this discussion at all. Win-tel PCs at a very fundamental level were not engineered for high quality smooth video playback. Their architecture was set way before it was even a dreamt of requirement. Trying to retro-fit it is not easy.

It amazes me that still major commercial aps like Cyberlink, running on the latest Windows with the latest greatest graphics card still, more often than not, suffers from synchronised judder, without band-aid fixes, like Reclock.

In so much as Reclock and gothsync can fix it (and in the vast majority of well maintained systems, where people are prepared to accept recommendations for hardware and software changes where needed, they can) they are doing something all the great minds in AMD, Nvidia, Microsoft etc. have yet to acheive. I guess it is true that the majority of HTPC users (mainly using VMC) are still not videophile enough to complain about a bit of judder. They are used to PC video playback being C**p!

[tetsuo55]

None of those companies named, except Lucasarts, are doing anything serious towards video/audio quality and sync.

Everyone uses a different hack (at least Lucasarts is asking everyone to use the same hack)

We can forget about solving the age old problem(on windows at least).
This time however, Ar-Jar is taking the start from scratch, minimal approach to the renderer.

Basically:
What is the minimum amount of actions required to get the image on the screen, and what needs to be added to those actions to get the image tearing, jitter and artifact free and keep judder under control. (all of this within the windows limitations)

This approach is also why i keep saying that there is a good chance that EVR-CP can replace all the older renderers in all situations except where DXVA2 support is needed and unavailable.

[ar-jar]

Yes :). Sounds like you are on to something!

Could you pls try the latest private build: http://www.ostrogothia.com/?page_id=1213. Again, I have basically only removed code so there might be side effects having to do with wrong image size or aspect ratio (I haven't seen any such effects while testing but that doesn't mean there aren't any). The OSD doesn't show exactly what it says anymore. I'll fix that later. Since I had a hard time reproducing the bug, I'm not absolutely sure I actually removed it. But at least i removed the statement where it apparently got stuck. Cheers! -A

[ar-jar]

The fact is that if the professionals knew how to make it all work dependably on a PC we would not be having this discussion at all. Win-tel PCs at a very fundamental level were not engineered for high quality smooth video playback. Their architecture was set way before it was even a dreamt of requirement. Trying to retro-fit it is not easy.


It's no rocket science to add sync to DirectShow / DirectX / OpenGL / the drivers. The reasons for why this doesn't happen are IMO: (1) most people don't even know they have a problem, and (2) gaming, not video, is where the money is. We are geeks interested in an esoteric problem with no potential for any money :-) -A

[tetsuo55]

Could you pls try the latest private build: http://www.ostrogothia.com/?page_id=1213. Again, I have basically only removed code so there might be side effects having to do with wrong image size or aspect ratio (I haven't seen any such effects while testing but that doesn't mean there aren't any). The OSD doesn't show exactly what it says anymore. I'll fix that later. Since I had a hard time reproducing the bug, I'm not absolutely sure I actually removed it. But at least i removed the statement where it apparently got stuck. Cheers! -Ahere is my result:
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5043/dvdtst.th.png (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/dvdtst.png/)

[Jong]

It's still a fudge though, caused:

a) because the PC has no single clock to go by and by design it drops frames rather than compromise audio if it gets out of sync

b) it is not a real time OS. Short of stripping down your installation to an almost non-functional/security exposed core, there is still no way to start video and be 100% sure some other piece of WIndows jumk (or accumulated PC clutter) is not going to stop smooth playback.

I think it is remarkable how smooth we are now managing to make things given this background, helped significantly by throwing ridiculously large amounts of processing power at the problem compared to what should be needed.

[ar-jar]

Again, don t know if the info is valuable, but here is a screenshot what happens with the option sync video to display (first option) is enabled and d3d fullscreen enabled. I played a movie for 5 min and don t see any ups or downs.


The video speed gets adjusted by this sync option and is in effect sped up from 23.976 to 24 Hz (if I can read the tiny numbers right). This works fine for analog audio output but if you use SPDIF then you'll most likely notice that audio and video get out of sync eventually. -A

[Jong]

Could you pls try the latest private build: http://www.ostrogothia.com/?page_id=1213. Again, I have basically only removed code so there might be side effects having to do with wrong image size or aspect ratio (I haven't seen any such effects while testing but that doesn't mean there aren't any). The OSD doesn't show exactly what it says anymore. I'll fix that later. Since I had a hard time reproducing the bug, I'm not absolutely sure I actually removed it. But at least i removed the statement where it apparently got stuck. Cheers! -A A very very brief test before bed seemed to work well:). Not tested for regressions and only tried once. However, this DVD would have crashed within seconds previously.

[ar-jar]

here is my result:


This is what I think happened: You managed to find a file / decoder combination just like Jong's, which doesn't report its frame-rate in the videoinfo header. Thus the 0 on the second row. With such a large (apparent) rate difference, the "snap" function won't kick in and you get judder when passing vsync.

I just fixed (hopefully) exactly this issue in VMR9. I will do the same with EVR if the fix seems to work well. -A