WMV9 AP Information Discussion

[mpgxsvcd]

I have done some exhaustive testing of the new WMV9 codec and I have come to the conclusion that it can get pretty close to H.264 but it still has one huge flaw. It seems that every file I encode no matter how high I set the bit rate it always reduces the color range. Every video looks soft because it never shows true “black”. It looks like all of the blacks are actually a shade of grey. When I use H.264 it always keeps black as black. Now this might have something to do with the color space that I use with H.264(It converts it to RGB by default). However, no matter what I do the H.264 looks better because it is showing true black. I set the registry values below when I encoded it. I always set Force Range Reduction = 0. Will this eliminate the color range reduction? Should I set this to another value or should I leave the registry entry out all together? Any help on this would be appreciated. I really want to use this codec but the color reduction is just not acceptable.

Compression Optimization Type = 0
Dquant Option = 3
Dquant Strength = 0
Force B Frame Delta QP = 4
Force LoopFilter = 1
Force Range Reduction = 0
Lookahead = 10
Motion Match Method = ffffffff
Motion Search Level = ffffffff
Motion Search Range = ffffffff
Motion Vector Cost Method = 1
NumBFrames = 1
Perceptual Option = 1

Here is sample HD 720pWMV9 Advanced profile video clip. It is from American Idol. It is of one of Katherine Mcphee’s better performances. The first one is at a really high bit rate and the second one at a lower bit rate. The first file also has the 5.1 audio but I don’t think it really decoded the DD correctly to each channel. Anyway enjoy the samples.

High Quality file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=5BCE19E1560A3B0C

Low Quality file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=27E3A79126D39F4A

[Sharktooth]

same problems as i described few posts above...
the decoder is slooooow... the videos are unwatchable on an athlon xp 3000+ (even with overclocking).
however h.264 (x264) can do almost the same at half or 2/3 the bitrate (your LQ video is encoded @3790kbps and the HQ @4709... and both show blocks and other artifacts)

[mpgxsvcd]

same problems as i described few posts above...
the decoder is slooooow... the videos are unwatchable on an athlon xp 3000+ (even with overclocking).
however h.264 (x264) can do almost the same at half or 2/3 the bitrate (your LQ video is encoded @3790kbps and the HQ @4709... and both show blocks and other artifacts)

I watched the HQ one this morning on a 55” LCD TV at 1080i and there were absolutely no compression artifacts what so ever. That was also running on an old Athlon 3200 with no over clocking and no dropped frames. I am not sure what you are doing wrong but something is not right with your setup if you saw blocks in the HQ one. Did you turn off your decoding processing for wmv9? That may be the problem. I left mine on and there were no compression artifacts.

What bit rate do you think you can get this file down to? I have a 2.5 mb/sec version that I have not posted yet. It still retains most of the original quality. The @3790kbps LQ one was done without any of the advanced parameters set so it should not look as good.

Could you recode this file to X.264 if I give you the original file? I need to find a way to cut an MPG2 file losslessly though. Any ideas on how to do that?

[mpgxsvcd]

same problems as i described few posts above...
the decoder is slooooow... the videos are unwatchable on an athlon xp 3000+ (even with overclocking).

Remember, this is a 30 FPS file instead of the original 60FPS that it was broadcast at. You will not see as smooth motion with this file as the original because it is at half the frame rate. You might have mistaken the 30 FPS for dropped frames. My 2.2 Ghz P4 with 512 megs of ram and only 533 FSB played the HQ version flawlessly.

[Sagittaire]

I compare VC1 vs H264 vs WMV9
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/

First visual Impression
- VC1 is better than WMV9 VCM
- H264 is really better than VC1

Detailled Visual Impression
In fact first impression is not good. Quality for high motion and complexe texture are very bad for VC1. IMO VC1 use very high quant (too high?) for complexe sequencies and very low quant (too low?) for simple sequencies : Visual quality is not constant.

I make sample for high motion part
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/sample-wmv9.avi
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/sample-vc1.wmv
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/sample-x264.mp4
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/sample-ateme.mp4
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/sample-elecard.mp4

As you can see WMV9 and H264 produce better visual result in these particular part. But why ... ???

Here the size for these part:
VC-1 done 1503 Ko
WMV9 VCM done 1707 Ko
Ateme done 1808 Ko
Elecard done 1657 Ko
x264 done 1735 Ko

Simply because all the codec use higher size for these particular part.

Metric Comparison
- H264 done very better overall result than VC1
- WMV9 VCM done better overall result than VC1 ... ???

H264 vs VC1 450 Kbps
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264vsVC1-450.PNG

H264 vs VCM 450 Kbps
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264vsVCM-900.PNG

H264 vs VC1 900 Kbps
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264vsVC1-900.PNG

Minimum local peak bitrate are generaly complexe texture or high motion part.
Maximum local peak bitrate are generaly simple texture or low motion part.

As you can see delta for maximum/minimum local peaK PSNR are very higher for VC1. very high quality for simple part and very low quality for complexe part. IMO quantizer variability is too high for VC1 : Rate Control is certainely really near than CBR mode with low variability for bitrate.

As you can see WMV9 VCM and H264 done very similar graph for PSNR. H264 is better than VCM (compression efficiency is better) but Rate Control are in practice exactly the same.

Conclusion: Your Rate Control is bad for Overall PSNR and IMO Overall PSNR can check good Rate Control. I can't say if your codec is good but your Rate Control is certainely bad: Quality in high motion / complexe texture are really bad. Actually VC-1 AP done very better visual result for low bitrate than MPEG4 ASP.

[pwimmer]

It seems that every file I encode no matter how high I set the bit rate it always reduces the color range. Every video looks soft because it never shows true “black”. It looks like all of the blacks are actually a shade of grey.

I didn't had this problem during my tests. It is probably caused by the graphics hardware. Virtually all video cards are faulty and do YUV->RGB conversion wrong, either in DirectX mode (used by VMR-9) or in overlay mode (used by VMR-7 and old VR).

Microsoft HW quality lab shouldn't certify drivers anymore which are not able to convert YUV2 and UYVY textures to RGB properly or cannot display a proper hardware overlay.

For codec comparisions, I always turn hardware acceleration off in the display properties. Performance will be horrible, but colors will be accurate.

[pwimmer]

Thanks. I'll try the suggested settings and tell you about the results.


I tried the settings, but the result was basically the same.

WMV/VC-1 is a good codec, definitely better than MPEG-4 ASP, but it cannot catch up to H.264. My guess is that Microsoft will have to revise their VC-1 strategy sooner or later.

For HD content on Bluray or HD DVD, it's not necessary to get the best compression efficiency possible. But for content hosted on web servers it is, because each additional MB traffic costs money.

I wonder if Microsoft will integrate H.264 in the Windows Media platform or develop a new codec, e.g. VC-2...

[bond]

mpeg-4 asp/avc, vc-1 aso are formats, not codecs

it doesnt make sense to make "h.264 vs. vc-1" encode comparisons. if you are comparing two formats you should always also mention what actual codec (eg xvid, x264 or whatever) and codec settings you used, cause this can make a very big difference

[Sharktooth]

I watched the HQ one this morning on a 55” LCD TV at 1080i and there were absolutely no compression artifacts what so ever. That was also running on an old Athlon 3200 with no over clocking and no dropped frames. I am not sure what you are doing wrong but something is not right with your setup if you saw blocks in the HQ one. Did you turn off your decoding processing for wmv9? That may be the problem. I left mine on and there were no compression artifacts.
I turned off HW acceleration to compare VC-1 with coreavc (software decoding only) and your samples are both unplayable on the XP 3000+ (video lagged behind audio and several frames where dropped). That means the VC-1 decoder is not properly optimized.
also i compared the results with PP turned off and there are clearly visible artifacts even in the HQ sample.
here are some sample images taken from the HQ encode (it's a mix of frame types randomly taken, there are also I-Frames taken at scene changes):
http://www.webalice.it/f.corriga/temp/vc-1.7z
watch them in full screen...
there are artifacts everywhere (blocks, rings, textures discolorations/blurring, moving textures, etc...). i also tried to not take screenshots on hi-motion frames coz there were even more artifacts (read as: those in the archive are not even the worst frames you can find in the encode!)
What bit rate do you think you can get this file down to? I have a 2.5 mb/sec version that I have not posted yet. It still retains most of the original quality. The @3790kbps LQ one was done without any of the advanced parameters set so it should not look as good.

Could you recode this file to X.264 if I give you the original file? I need to find a way to cut an MPG2 file losslessly though. Any ideas on how to do that?
Im not sure about the bitrate but i can recode it at the same bitrate and at lower ones.

[zambelli]

I turned off HW acceleration to compare VC-1 with coreavc (software decoding only)
HW acceleration? Umm, WVC1 is software decoding only. No hardware vendor has released video drivers yet that support DXVA decoding of WVC1.

[Sharktooth]

For safety i turned off WMV acceleration.
i edited my previous post. please check the comments and get screeshots archive.
(link for the lazy ppl: http://www.webalice.it/f.corriga/temp/vc-1.7z)

[dohcmark8]

Yeah the decoder has issues. Needs optimization badly.:(

[Sagittaire]

same problems as i described few posts above...
the decoder is slooooow... the videos are unwatchable on an athlon xp 3000+ (even with overclocking).
however h.264 (x264) can do almost the same at half or 2/3 the bitrate (your LQ video is encoded @3790kbps and the HQ @4709... and both show blocks and other artifacts)

strange ... play very well here with my sempron 2.1 Ghz 32 bits : average speed without audio is 38.5 fps (PP0)

[benwaggoner]

The offical beta release of the new codec has been posted. This means you don't have to install WMP11 if you want to play with the codec.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/encoder/default.mspx

[zambelli]

Thanks, Ben - I updated the first post in the thread with WVC1 codec release news, but forgot to post something at the end of it. :)

Everyone should take a look at http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=111633 for more details about the standalone WVC1 codec release.

[mpgxsvcd]

Ok I have finally settled on some settings for WMV9. I have two different cases that I setup for WMV9. They are both listed below. I was able to get about 25% better compression than I was getting before by raising the Force B Frame Delta QP and NumBFrames values.

For high quality encodes (3-5 Mb/Sec for 720p 2-3 Mb/Sec for 480p)

Compression Optimization Type = 0
Dquant Option = 3
Dquant Strength = 0
Force B Frame Delta QP = 4-8 (Set this to 4 if you are not that concerned about compression you just want to optimize quality. Set it to 8 if you want decent quality but you want to optimize compression. Try values between 4 and 8 if you want both good quality and medium compression.)
Force LoopFilter = 1
Force Range Reduction = 0
Force Video Scaling = 0
Lookahead = 10
Motion Match Method = ffffffff
Motion Search Level = ffffffff
Motion Search Range = ffffffff
Motion Vector Cost Method = 1
NumBFrames = 2-3(Use 2 for optimal quality. Use 3 if you are more concerned with compression)
Perceptual Option = 1

For Medium quality encodes (2-3 Mb/Sec for 720p .6-2.0 Mb/Sec for 480p)

Compression Optimization Type = 0
Dquant Option = 2
Dquant Strength = 0
Force B Frame Delta QP = 7-9 (Set this to 9 only if you need to get down to about .6 Mb/sec for 480p content. Quality will be sharply reduced if you go much over 8 for this value.)
Force LoopFilter = 1
Force Range Reduction = 0
Force Video Scaling = 1 (I have found that a value of 1 for this setting doesn’t really reduce resolution much but you can get about 5% more compression. If you need to get down to really low bit rates then you can use a setting of 2 but this will reduce the sharpness considerably.
Lookahead = 10
Motion Match Method = ffffffff
Motion Search Level = ffffffff
Motion Search Range = ffffffff
Motion Vector Cost Method = 1
NumBFrames = 3-4 (3 is a good setting here. Use 4 if you need extreme compression)
Perceptual Option = 1

[zambelli]

Compression Optimization Type = 0
Dquant Strength = 0
Force Range Reduction = 0
Force Video Scaling = 0

You probably don't need to explicitly set these to 0. It ultimately doesn't make a difference, but it'll keep your list of registry settings shorter. :)

[mpgxsvcd]

You probably don't need to explicitly set these to 0. It ultimately doesn't make a difference, but it'll keep your list of registry settings shorter. :)

Yes I know that you don’t have to explicitly state them. I just wanted to be perfectly clear to everyone about what I was using. For example in one of them I recommend using a Force Video Scaling value of 1. In the other I don’t recommend using that setting. Also I was under the impression that the default Force Range Reduction value was “ffffffff’? Doesn’t that mean that the codec chooses when to use the range reduction? I don’t recommend using that setting at all. That is why I stated the value of zero for that one. Finally, I listed the Dquant Strength value of zero because I got very large files if I used any other value besides that. You can leave the setting out all together and it will do the same thing but I wanted everyone to know that a value of zero is the only one that gave me good results.:thanks:

[lazyn00b]

Sure it can. It already does in DVR-MS files.

You can mux AC3 files directly into ASF by using SolveigMM's ASF muxer: http://www.solveigmm.com/?Downloads and http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=92136.

You'll need the AVI AC3 source filter in order to play them back. One caveat: playback is only possible in DirectShow based players such as MPC. WM Format SDK requires audio codecs to be either of DMO or ACM type, so any WMF based player (WMP, MCE) will complain about missing audio codec.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I did try SolveigMM's stuff without much satisfaction.

How do I create a DVR-MS from a WMV and an AC3? DVR-MS would be great because then I could play it from MCE 2005 interface without any hassle. What we really need is a simple little tool, even a CLI, that can mux (and demux!) tracks from a DVR-MS.

[zambelli]

Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I did try SolveigMM's stuff without much satisfaction.
What about Solveig's tool didn't work for you? I remember muxing WMV and AC3 quite successfully with it.

[Sharktooth]

@Zambelli, are there any chances to see a faster decoder in the near future?
i have the impression the actual one is optimized for Intel CPUs and it performs poorly on Athlons (expecially on non-SSE2 enabled CPUs).

[mpgxsvcd]

Ok forcing range reduction is a little confusing. You actually have to force the value in the registry. If you just try to type the value in then it will only let you do 7 characters. You need to enter 8 characters or it will crash WME9. Try copying the value and pasting into the dword value in the registry.

Try copying 1010101 as the dword value. That should be the minimum reduction besides 00000000 which is no reduction. You could also try 08080808 which is the maximum.

I had never actually tried this value until this morning. It really appears to work. It looks like it introduces black crush. Most of the shadow details get reduced considerably. However, the bit rate is reduced considerably also. I might start using this setting now. I had just used 00000000 before.

[Dayvon]

@ Sharktooth...

Maybe it is just me, but these pictures look like most HD-quality content that I've see on cable-sat. Basically that the video that they send out is a bit too compressed for the quality. I remember seeing VERY similar artifacting at a friends house (60" HDTV) watching American Idol a few months ago (the background red's look like mush). To me that looks very much like what I've seen from on-air HD.

@ mpgxsvcd

How did you get your source file? Did you record it off the air? If so, how did you record it initially? And lastly, if you didn't record it off air, how did you get the file?

[Sharktooth]

@ Sharktooth...

Maybe it is just me, but these pictures look like most HD-quality content that I've see on cable-sat. Basically that the video that they send out is a bit too compressed for the quality. I remember seeing VERY similar artifacting at a friends house (60" HDTV) watching American Idol a few months ago (the background red's look like mush). To me that looks very much like what I've seen from on-air HD.
well, then the codec quality cant be evaluated. we need a clean source to make comparative tests.

[Dayvon]

@ mpgxsvcd

Motion Match Method = ffffffff
Motion Search Level = ffffffff
Motion Search Range = ffffffff

What are these values equal to when using NicWMVEncoder? Values available are -1,0,1.

Basically, I'd like to replicate your *best* encoding settings as a place to begin testing WM9VC-1.

Thx!

[mpgxsvcd]

@ mpgxsvcd



What are these values equal to when using NicWMVEncoder? Values available are -1,0,1.

Basically, I'd like to replicate your *best* encoding settings as a place to begin testing WM9VC-1.

Thx!

Those are all -1.

[mpgxsvcd]

@ Sharktooth...

Maybe it is just me, but these pictures look like most HD-quality content that I've see on cable-sat. Basically that the video that they send out is a bit too compressed for the quality. I remember seeing VERY similar artifacting at a friends house (60" HDTV) watching American Idol a few months ago (the background red's look like mush). To me that looks very much like what I've seen from on-air HD.

@ mpgxsvcd

How did you get your source file? Did you record it off the air? If so, how did you record it initially? And lastly, if you didn't record it off air, how did you get the file?

My source file was from American Idol as it was broadcast over-the-air at 720p 60 FPS. I use an ATI HDTV wonder that allows me to capture the full unaltered 18 Mbps HD stream from any of the over the air HD stations. The original HD MPG2 stream from American Idol has absolutely no compression artifacts. If you see compression artifacts with American Idol HD then you are getting a compressed signal. The over the air signal I am getting from our local affiliate is artifact free. If you use satellite then you are not actually getting HD. It is actually HD-LITE which is a down-rezzed and bit starved version of HD. If you use over the air and you see the artifacts then your local station must be doing the same thing. I can upload the source file if someone can let me know how to remove a segment of an MPG2 video losslessly? I guess I could use video vegas and the new lossless WMV video and audio codecs? Has anyone messed with those yet? Do you want to see a sample?:D

[Dayvon]

@ mpgxsvcd

I don't need to see your sample thx :) . But I do have problems with HD over-the-air and their compressions. I have seen HD over-the-air (ALIAS episode specifically), this years Super Bowl (either cable or OTA), and American Idol (either cable or OTA). To say HD is cool and great is true. To say it is without compression artifacts I really believe is being well, untrue. At some point along the chain of camera -> file/stream -> broadcast, the source is MPEG-2 encoded and I really haven't seen any HD OTA or cable, without this compression being easily seen. I have seen true HD with HD trailers and I have seen some of those are truly artifact free.

Now I don't demand to be the authority on all things HD by any means, but I do know that I have seen OTA HD and it was impressive to be sure. But the one thing that didn't impress me was compression. And the files that I uploaded from you did have that "source compression" to my eyes.

@ Everyone

I did a quick comparison between VC-1, x264, and Xvid. AVScript below.

SetMemoryMax(512)

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DGIndex\DGDecode.dll")
video=mpeg2source("D:\TEMP Rev\Pride&Prejudice\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.d2v",cpu=4)
ColorMatrix()
Trim(98083,104506)
crop(2,56,-2,-62)
LanczosResize(864,368)

Multi-pass @ 1000kbps - Encode time was approximately the same (not noticably longer for any of them)

1. P&P-VC1.wmv 32MB (http://church.crossingatwoodland.com/Temp/download/P&P-VC1.wmv)
This file was made with Nic's WMVEncoder using WMV9 Advanced Profile. Settings were nearly identical to High Quality settings posted in this thread on Page 9 by mpgxsvcd (thx BTW).

2. P&P-xvid.avi 30.8MB (http://church.crossingatwoodland.com/Temp/download/P&P-xvid.avi)
Encoded using VirtualDubMod and Xvid 1.1.0 ( w/ QPEL, GMC, B-VOP's, Mode-6, VHQ-1, /w chroma motion)

3. P&P-x264.mp4 32MB (http://church.crossingatwoodland.com/Temp/download/P&P-x264.mp4)
Encoded using MeGUI and x264 r504 (x264.exe --pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 2 --b-pyramid --bime --weightb --filter -3,-3 --analyse all --8x8dct --threads 2 --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --output)

(NOTE: I might try the WMV9 again with some setting changes (per mpgxsvcd post moments ago). If I do, I will substitute the file in place of the one here, and note the edit.)

Perceptions: I think that this VC-1 really isn't a bad codec. I don't think it is as good as AVC High-Profile, but really that would be expecting too much. I will probably use it for compatability's sake for public stuff, but for my personal use, x264 is really the ticket. I thought that VC-1 did a good job with facial details when the rain wasn't an issue. Overall VC-1 looked smeared, Xvid looked harsh/artifical, and x264 looked pretty much right.

Overall, I'm very happy with VC-1's overall performance, and aside from rain (which gives every codec hell) I think it is a very usable and quality codec.

[mpgxsvcd]

After testing the Force Range Reduction setting I have come to the conclusion that this is what causes the black crush affect that I was seeing in the H.264 and X.264 samples that I had seen. They all appeared to have less detail in the shadows but they all had much deeper blacks. This gave the videos the appearance of being sharper. At first I thought it was a color space or Pixel Format setting. However, now I realize that it must be some form of color range reduction. Before I could get very good samples out of wmv9 advanced but they never quite got to the level of X.264. With the use of the range reduction I can now meet and even exceed the results of X.264. There are some tricks to this setting though. First off you have to manually force in 8 digits instead of the 7 that it defaults to. If you don’t do this WME9 will crash. It also performs differently with 1 pass Quality VBR than it does with 2-pass unconstrained VBR. With Quality VBR you can set it to a value of 06060606 and you won’t see that much of a range reduction in the file. However, you will see a gigantic file size difference(~25%). If you use a setting of 06060606 with 2 pass VBR then the file will be unwatchable because the colors have been reduced down to basically black. The screen will be so dark that you can not recognize anything. The highest setting I could use with 2-pass is 01010101. So if you can use Quality VBR then give the range reduction a try. It made all of the difference for me.

[Dayvon]

Before I could get very good samples out of wmv9 advanced but they never quite got to the level of X.264. With the use of the range reduction I can now meet and even exceed the results of X.264.
I don't understand how the color range can change the results of a test like mine, using the same settings as those you posted previously... Maybe that's just me.

Did you look at the files I posted?

[mpgxsvcd]

@ mpgxsvcd

I don't need to see your sample thx :) . But I do have problems with HD over-the-air and their compressions. I have seen HD over-the-air (ALIAS episode specifically), this years Super Bowl (either cable or OTA), and American Idol (either cable or OTA). To say HD is cool and great is true. To say it is without compression artifacts I really believe is being well, untrue. At some point along the chain of camera -> file/stream -> broadcast, the source is MPEG-2 encoded and I really haven't seen any HD OTA or cable, without this compression being easily seen. I have seen true HD with HD trailers and I have seen some of those are truly artifact free.


Well I have seen good HD and bad HD. The good HD is my local TWC and my local over-the-air stations. I know that the HD broadcast of American Idol that I receive is artifact free. Yes some of the samples I posted had macro blocks. The lower quality ones were not using the correct settings for the bit rate they were done at. However, the highest quality one looked pretty much identical to the original when viewed on a 55” LCD from about 8 feet away. There weren’t any macro blocks or artifacts in either. Could you post your original sample file so that I can try compressing it with WME9? It may have something to do with the encoder you are using. I haven’t downloaded the samples you sent yet. I will try to do that tonight.

[Dayvon]

As I have limited hosting space no, I cant host my source file. :(

As to artifact free, do you see the horrible blurry mess that is the red background behind Kathryn? I mean to me it is kind of obvious that something is wrong.

I'm on a 1360x768 32" HDTV LCD from 4-5 ft away BTW. And I couldnt get WME9 to work with my AVSynth file which is why I used Nic'sWMVEncoder.

[zambelli]

There are some tricks to this setting though. First off you have to manually force in 8 digits instead of the 7 that it defaults to. If you don’t do this WME9 will crash. It also performs differently with 1 pass Quality VBR than it does with 2-pass unconstrained VBR. With Quality VBR you can set it to a value of 06060606 and you won’t see that much of a range reduction in the file. However, you will see a gigantic file size difference(~25%). If you use a setting of 06060606 with 2 pass VBR then the file will be unwatchable because the colors have been reduced down to basically black. The screen will be so dark that you can not recognize anything. The highest setting I could use with 2-pass is 01010101. So if you can use Quality VBR then give the range reduction a try. It made all of the difference for me.
I get the impression you're not using this setting correctly. The statement "you have to manually force in 8 digits instead of the 7 that it defaults to" leads me to believe you are entering the value as a decimal number. If you enter 06060606 as a hexadecimal number (as indicated by the 0x format in the documentation) in Regedit, it will retain the leading 0.

Changing this setting can improve compressability and reduce blurring and macroblocking (more bitrate will be used to compress less information), but will reduce the luma and color accuracy. 4:2:0 is already a chroma-starved format. I personally would not reduce its range by a factor of 6, but if you're not seeing the sideeffects - then go for it.

[zambelli]

And I couldnt get WME9 to work with my AVSynth file which is why I used Nic'sWMVEncoder.
Have you tried the new wmcmd.vbs from http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=111633?

[Dayvon]

Have you tried the new wmcmd.vbs from http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=111633?
Most definitely. Here's my simple AVScript.
SetMemoryMax(512)

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DGIndex\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\TEMP Rev\Pride&Prejudice\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.d2v",cpu=4)
ColorMatrix()
Trim(98083,104506)
crop(2,56,-2,-62)
LanczosResize(864,368)
Here's the error messages I get from WME9.

The requested video codec is not installed on your system. (0xC00D0BC4)
I import the AVS file as a script. Then this happens whenever I select the compression tab, selecting the video to adjust bitrate/settings. I did however, install the download that you linked above.
Also, if I try to source the AVSfile as a video it says that "No such interface is supported".

[Sharktooth]

3. P&P-x264.mp4 32MB (http://church.crossingatwoodland.com/Temp/download/P&P-x264.mp4)
Encoded using MeGUI and x264 r504 (x264.exe --pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 2 --b-pyramid --bime --weightb --filter -3,-3 --analyse all --8x8dct --threads 2 --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --output)
Why dont you use r530 and some more "quality" settings for x264?
Your settings doesnt even use RDO...
try those ones: x264.exe --pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --ref 5 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --filter -3,-3 --subme 6 --trellis 1 --analyse all --8x8dct --me umh --threads 2 --thread-input
(adjust the inloop deblocking for your needs)
and look again at the difference between VC-1 and x264...

[zambelli]

Most definitely.
Do you get the same error from WMCmd.vbs that you get from WME9 GUI?

Here's the error messages I get from WME9.
The requested video codec is not installed on your system. (0xC00D0BC4)
Can you play the .avs in a DirectShow player such as WMP?

I import the AVS file as a script. Then this happens whenever I select the compression tab, selecting the video to adjust bitrate/settings. I did however, install the download that you linked above.
As script? Oh. :D
No, that "Script" in WME9 does not refer to Avisynth. It refers to script commands that gets inserted into ASF files for subsequent processing during playback.

Also, if I try to source the AVSfile as a video it says that "No such interface is supported".
The way to use .avs in WME9 is to specify "Both device and file" as the source, then point Video and/or Audio to the .avs file. A little convoluted, I know, but WME9 wasn't really designed with Avisynth in mind.

[Dayvon]

Why dont you use r530 and some more "quality" settings for x264?
Your settings doesnt even use RDO...
try those ones: x264.exe --pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --ref 5 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --direct auto --filter -3,-3 --subme 6 --trellis 1 --analyse all --8x8dct --me umh --threads 2 --thread-input
(adjust the inloop deblocking for your needs)
and look again at the difference between VC-1 and x264...
I updated my x264 I swear like a month or two ago and we are already to r530.... sheesh.

You've been making up time since being back (congrats on the recovery BTW)!

As to RDO, in my current version of x264 RDO is a tad to slow for my taste.

Do you get the same error from WMCmd.vbs that you get from WME9 GUI?
I have not tried a cmdline anything and wont if that's what you mean. WME9 just isn't responding. I even tried using the "Both device and file", I also tried that thing you posted in the knowledge base about altering the vbs file to no look for time (or something like that). But alas, WME9 doesn't like me, and I don't like it :sly:

[zambelli]

I have not tried a cmdline anything and wont if that's what you mean. WME9 just isn't responding. I even tried using the "Both device and file", I also tried that thing you posted in the knowledge base about altering the vbs file to no look for time (or something like that). But alas, WME9 doesn't like me, and I don't like it :sly:
If you're not interested in command-line encoding, why did you try altering the VBS? That's somewhat of a non-sequitur.
I'm not sure what the problem is because I don't have enough information. If you want me to troubleshoot it, you're going to have to give me your exact steps.

[Dayvon]

If you're not interested in command-line encoding, why did you try altering the VBS? That's somewhat of a non-sequitur.
I'm not sure what the problem is because I don't have enough information. If you want me to troubleshoot it, you're going to have to give me your exact steps.
No troubleshooting necessary. That's why I used Nic'sEncoder and everything seemed to work fine. I was able to select WM9 advancded profile, and change the settings. It encoded the above file fine, so what's to fix?

Thanks for your help and concern though ;) .

[Valeron]

RDO is way too slow, not standard required, and VC-1 can do that too(nerver be an option for me because it's like a hell).

i've tried my 1st VC-1 encode at 700k with switching mostly MB setting to adpative. and the result is.... an MPEG-1?

ugly.....

[lazyn00b]

What about Solveig's tool didn't work for you? I remember muxing WMV and AC3 quite successfully with it.

Basically the main problem is that the resulting file can not be played back via the MCE interface.

[zambelli]

Basically the main problem is that the resulting file can not be played back via the MCE interface.
Ah, yeah. It's an unfortunate issue. The problem is that MCE uses WMF SDK to read ASF files. By design, WMF SDK only supports DMO and ACM audio codecs. Most AC3 decoders are DShow codecs, and thus we have a problem. A DirectShow player such as MPC will read ASF+AC3 without a problem through DirectShow's QASF filter, but WMF native player such as WMP or MCE will choke on the audio stream because it can't use a DShow audio decoder. :(
So to be clear - the problem is not in the file format, but in the current WMF SDK implementation.

[lazyn00b]

Ah, yeah. It's an unfortunate issue. The problem is that MCE uses WMF SDK to read ASF files. By design, WMF SDK only supports DMO and ACM audio codecs. Most AC3 decoders are DShow codecs, and thus we have a problem. A DirectShow player such as MPC will read ASF+AC3 without a problem through DirectShow's QASF filter, but WMF native player such as WMP or MCE will choke on the audio stream because it can't use a DShow audio decoder. :(
So to be clear - the problem is not in the file format, but in the current WMF SDK implementation.

So how about DVR-MS, then - is there any way to "make" one?

[zambelli]

So how about DVR-MS, then - is there any way to "make" one?
Possibly through the Stream Buffer Engine.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directshow/htm/usingthestreambufferengine.asp

[mpgxsvcd]

I get the impression you're not using this setting correctly. The statement "you have to manually force in 8 digits instead of the 7 that it defaults to" leads me to believe you are entering the value as a decimal number. If you enter 06060606 as a hexadecimal number (as indicated by the 0x format in the documentation) in Regedit, it will retain the leading 0.

Changing this setting can improve compressability and reduce blurring and macroblocking (more bitrate will be used to compress less information), but will reduce the luma and color accuracy. 4:2:0 is already a chroma-starved format. I personally would not reduce its range by a factor of 6, but if you're not seeing the sideeffects - then go for it.

Nope I am entering 06060606 in hexadecimal format. If I open the value back up after I have saved it then the leading zero is gone and it will crash WME9 every time. I think there are some serious bugs around this setting that go all the way back to the original WME9 Advanced profile. Could you try a 1 pass Quality with a range reduction of 06060606? When I try that the file is smaller but it does not really appear to reduce the color range. When I do a two pass unconstrained then the color reduction is obvious and unacceptable. That is why I said that I was getting good results even using a high reduction value with a Quality encode. Any help on this setting is appreciated. It is still some what of a mystery as to what it actually is supposed to do?

[Wilbert]

Ah, yeah. It's an unfortunate issue. The problem is that MCE uses WMF SDK to read ASF files. By design, WMF SDK only supports DMO and ACM audio codecs. Most AC3 decoders are DShow codecs, and thus we have a problem. A DirectShow player such as MPC will read ASF+AC3 without a problem through DirectShow's QASF filter, but WMF native player such as WMP or MCE will choke on the audio stream because it can't use a DShow audio decoder.
Can't you simply install an AC3-ACM decoder (like the one from fccHandler)?

[Dayvon]

@ mpgxsvcd

These are the settings I used.

Compression Optimization type = 0
Denoise option = default
Dquant Option = 3
Dquant Strength = 0
Force Frame Delta QP = 4
Force LoopFilter = 1
Force Median = default
ForceNoiseEdgeRemoval = default
Force Num Threads = 1
Force Overlap = default
Force video scaling = 0
Lookahead = 10
Macroblock Mode Cost Method = default
Motion Match Method = -1
Motion search Level = -1
Motion search range = -1
Motion Vector Coding method = 1
NumBFrames = 2
Perceptual Option = 1

Now do realise that I set the encode to 1000kbps... which for that resolution is a bit low, so I would expect the codecs not to appear perfectly. Secondly, rain is hell for any codec. Even the x264 encode had quite a bit of trouble with the source. So don't worry about the results, this just shows that when extremely stretching the codec x264 behaves better than VC-1. That doesn't mean VC-1 won't or isnt great at anything. I'm sure with a tad more bitrate, or with a less complicated scene, VC-1 would do just fine.

I remember just a year ago when 1500kbps /w Xvid was my bare minimum for an encode, and x264 is just such a low bitrate codec... It's fairly unbelievable. If you render x264 at 600kbps it is passable though smeared. I wouldn't expect the same results with VC-1. Though at 2000kbps Id have a hard time convincing you to use x264 over xvid (BTW, I tend to prefer xvid at 2000kbps+) I'd have to run another set of tests for high bitrate to see how VC-1 stands up there. I bet it would do well though.

[HookedOnTV]

Basically the main problem is that the resulting file can not be played back via the MCE interface.

I put mine in mkv. Not the smoothest process but it works. Use graphedit to mux the wmv to mkv then you can mux in ac3.

[crypto]

So how about DVR-MS, then - is there any way to "make" one?

TSConverter (http://www.dvbportal.de/projects/tsconverter) can convert TS and MPG to DVR-MS and vice versa. DVR-MS can hold MPEG-1, MPEG-2, DV1/2 video and LPCM, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, AC3 audio. It is basicly an extended ASF container