WMV9 AP Information Discussion

[siddharthagandhi]

"Keep in mind that WMP11 updates both Main Profile (WMV3) and Advanced Profile (WVC1) encoders, so for true evidence of improvement you should be comparing them to the old WMP9 or WMP10 versions of WMV3."

I selected the Windows Media Video 9 codec in Nic's WM Encoder. And I was using CBR encoding. Perhaps that is the reason...but shouldn't there be an improvement regardless?

And my testing methodology was simple. Take a clip, encode it in WMV 9 AP. Then Encode it in WMV 9 (those were the names of the "profiles"). Watch each, see which one looks better. I also compared it to an xvid and x264 and nd avc encode of it. The latter three were better (by a large margin) than both WMV 9 AP and normal...

[zambelli]

I selected the Windows Media Video 9 codec in Nic's WM Encoder. And I was using CBR encoding. Perhaps that is the reason...but shouldn't there be an improvement regardless?
I don't know what your content was. If you're encoding, say, progressive 512x384 content, the difference between Main and Advanced Profile might be negligible in that scenario.

See if you can find an old video encoded with the old WMV9 codec. Encode the same source with the WMP11 codecs and see if you can spot the difference.

And my testing methodology was simple. Take a clip, encode it in WMV 9 AP. Then Encode it in WMV 9 (those were the names of the "profiles"). Watch each, see which one looks better. I also compared it to an xvid and x264 and nd avc encode of it. The latter three were better (by a large margin) than both WMV 9 AP and normal...
Were the AVC encodes also done with default settings? Make sure you're not comparing apples to oranges. There are plenty of WMV9 AP settings to tweak too.

[Sirber]

Will there be a CLI encoder?

[dohcmark8]

The WMP11 beta is out... http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/11/default.aspx

[GmorG McRoth]

I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx) is not the most user friendly way.

[dohcmark8]

I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx) is not the most user friendly way.

Not that I've seen yet. But I think WME Studio Edition will... dont quote me on that though.. im just guessing.

[zambelli]

Will there be a CLI encoder?
I'm working on an update to wmcmd.vbs to be used with WME9.

[zambelli]

I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx) is not the most user friendly way.
Not at the moment. How are your C++/VB/C# skills these days? ;) Volunteers are always welcome! :)

[Sirber]

I'm working on an update to wmcmd.vbs to be used with WME9.I ment, any command line console win32 text mode application to encode with VC1? With AVS as input and WMV as output? ;)

[siddharthagandhi]

"See if you can find an old video encoded with the old WMV9 codec. Encode the same source with the WMP11 codecs and see if you can spot the difference."

I have a clip. I compared it. There was almost no difference or improvement. I heard that the official beta has improvement over the leaked one. I'm testing that as we speak.

And yes, AVC encodes were done with default settings. Even an AVC encode with a bitrate 500 lower looked better. Now that's saying something.

[zambelli]

I ment, any command line console win32 text mode application to encode with VC1? With AVS as input and WMV as output? ;)
Microsoft is not planning on releasing one, if that's your question.
A command-line encoding app should be easy to implement. Just look at Nic's encoder implementation. It's pretty much based entirely on the CUncompAVIToWMV sample from the SDK.

[McoreD]

I's there any GUI that whuld allow me to play with those advanced encoder settings? Editing registry like outlined here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx) is not the most user friendly way.

This is something I made for myself while testing WMV9AP.
http://microsoftuse.temp.powweb.com/mcored/downloads/dvd2wmvassistant-1.3beta1-bin.zip

You need .NET 2.0. Open the EXE, go to WMVA Profile Editor and you are good to go from there.

@zambelli,
I was wondering why you call "WMV9 Advanced Profile (WVC1) video codec BETA" in the first post. Isn't WVC1 finalized yet? or are you just calling it beta because WMP11 is beta?

[stax76]

Am I right to assume that WMP won't install the automation interfaces so I better wait until updated interfaces are released with the encoder before I consider starting to code.

[CruNcher]

Ok for all of you who don't wan't to install WMP 11 but only the updated codecs here we go ;)

1. Download the WMP 11 beta
2. Extract the main .exe
3. now inside the extracted folder you gonna find wmfdist11.exe, execute it.
4. Start WME9 and enjoy the Advanced Profile ;)

@zambelli

Microsoft is also actively working on making a standalone WMV9 AP codec package available for download to users who want to test the beta codec but don't want to install the Player beta.


you allready did but you allways try to hold it back whyever M$ likes todo that. In the end everyone here knows why you do it you wan't the installations of WMP 11 as high as possible :P but not everyone is a avg user, so if you lie to us this way you won't make friends here zambelli.

here is a WVC1 example made by Remedy (most probably encoded by the Microsoft Studio staff as they partners) 720p@60 fps 15 Mbps
http://www.alanwake.com/movies.html

Test Results:

First test results show that the new Main Profile is much better now then it was before, especialy in detail preservation but the difference to the new WVC1 i couldn't see that @ 8 mbps for now, gonna try some higher bitrates later source was 1920x1080p@25 fps hmm i can see a slight textural difference looks that the new MP@HL did better here then AP @ this Bitrate. To be Continued...

[GodofaGap]

Q: Does the new Advanced Profile codec have a different FourCC?
A: Yes, it does. In order to differentiate it from SP/MP codec (FourCC: WMV3) and the non-VC1-compliant AP codec (FourCC: WMVA), and avoid issues with legacy decoders, the VC-1 compliant WMV9 Advanced Profile codec uses a new FourCC code: WVC1.

Are these 2 fourcc's for VC1 (WMV3 for SP/MP and WVC1 for AP IIUC) private to Microsoft, or can we expect future implementations of VC1 by other companies to use these fourcc's as well? (Or perhaps both?)

edit: bah i messed up the fourcc for AP...

[zambelli]

you allready did but you allways try to hold it back whyever M$ likes todo that. In the end everyone here knows why you do it you wan't the installations of WMP 11 as high as possible :P but not everyone is a avg user,
?!?!?
Riiiiight. "Forcing" hundred Doom9 users to install WMP11 in order to get WMV9 AP is really going to boost Microsoft's market penetration. I'll go tell the marketing people that the MTV Urge service is a huge waste of time - because clearly the real draw is WMV9 AP.

Cruncher, I don't underestimate anybody on this forum. I know very well you can extract the WMF SDK runtime from the install package. However, you're entirely speculating about our reasons for not endorsing that install scenario. Conspiracy theories are entertaining, but that's not how businesses are run.
so if you lie to us this way you won't make friends here zambelli.
What has gotten into you? I'm trying to be informative and help you guys get the latest codec, and that makes me a liar? If I say "we're working on making a standalone codec download available", I mean exactly that. The world doesn't revolve around your personal interests. There are Windows Server 2003 customers out there who want WMV9 AP for their streaming needs - WMP11 isn't targeted at W2K3, so we need to figure out an alternative way to provide them with a codec update. These decisions are made for a reason and I assure you they're not the least bit diabolic as you perceive them to be.

P.S. I'm not here to "make friends" and turn people over to Microsoft's products. I've been a member since the forum was started, before I ever worked for MS. The fact that I can now act as a liason between you guys and MS is something that I hope you can appreciate.

First test results show that the new Main Profile is much better now then it was before, especialy in detail preservation but the difference to the new WVC1 i couldn't see that @ 8 mbps for now, gonna try some higher bitrates later source was 1920x1080p@25 fps hmm i can see a slight textural difference looks that the new MP@HL did better here then AP @ this Bitrate. To be Continued...
I am very interested in hearing such feedback. That's exactly why the beta is being released publicly.

[zambelli]

Are these 2 fourcc's for VC1 (WMV3 for SP/MP and WMVA for AP IIUC) private to Microsoft, or can we expect future implementations of VC1 by other companies to use these fourcc's as well? (Or perhaps both?)
My guess is that 3rd party encoder implementations will want to use the same FourCCs if they're not planning on providing their own decoder implementation. That way they can leverage Microsoft's decoders. However, if they want to force people to use their decoder implementations too, they might use a different 4cc code to avoid filter conflict.

It's difficult to regulate these things. Remember how Canopus had a different 4cc for their DV video, even though it was perfectly compliant with every other DV decoder on the market? We'll see how things turn out for VC-1. Hopefully it won't be a FourCC mess. :)

[GodofaGap]

Ok, I feel I am doing something wrong...

I used the clip from this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=90784&highlight=quality+challenge
) infamous ( ;) ) thread, but comparing PSNR scores WMV9 AP appears to do worse than DivX3 (900 kbps) :confused:

I've used Nic's wmenc to encode the file, but the fourcc seems to be WVC1 so that should be ok... visual checking the impression is not that bad I think, but on that partcilar clip in some scenes there is still some blockiness compared to x264.

Zambelli, can you confirm that Nic's wmencoder is using the correct codec?

[Sharktooth]

you can compare vc1 to real or xvid...
comparing it with x264 is a bit unfair.

[GodofaGap]

Ok, I feel I am doing something wrong...

I forgot to tick VBR. :stupid:

Still WMV9 AP is way behind DivX or XviD in PSNR score (about 0.5 dB) and even normal WMV9 is a bit better... I still feel I am doing something wrong.

you can compare vc1 to real or xvid...
comparing it with x264 is a bit unfair.
I don't know why it would be unfair, but for me it is certainly relevant. Encoding and decoding speed is certainly not any faster than with x264/CoreAVC.

[dohcmark8]

Try enabling 'Compression Optimization Type' to a value of '1' in the registry...

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx

edit: Yeah wow... that one registry setting really makes the videos look MUCH better. Credit goes to 'mpgxsvcd' at the AVS Forum for the find.

[GodofaGap]

Will try. Don't think regedit is a suitable GUI for an encoder though. :S

[LotharZ]

At Softpedia can be found the new runtimes if you dont want the player.

Im not sure if its a beta or final version, links dont come from MS.

Windows Media Format Runtime 11
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Codec-Packs-Video-Codecs/Windows-Media-Format-Runtime-11.shtml

[Latexxx]

Actually the new player is pretty decent. It's faster than WMP 10 and 9 and looks better.

[bond]

is the encoder dmo useable in graphedit? eg with .avs input?

edit:
and did anyone manage to register the encoder/decoder dmos without needing to run the drm infected installer?

[trbarry]

and did anyone manage to register the encoder/decoder dmos without needing to run the drm infected installer?

What??

What does drm infected mean? Some non-obvious side effects of this?

- Tom

[GodofaGap]

I believe "DRM infected" is another way of saying they don't like Microsoft. You cannot install DRM. You can install a player that can handles files that are protected with DRM. I wouldn't know what the practical downside of this is though. I must say I'm positively surprised with the interface of WMP11. After WMP6 my favorite of the WMP series.

Try enabling 'Compression Optimization Type' to a value of '1' in the registry...
It hurted PSNR quite badly on the HP2 trailer (~0.4 dB). Also interesting to see that using b-frames causes a decoding delay.

[zambelli]

What?? What does drm infected mean? Some non-obvious side effects of this?
Bond is just being overly dramatic, as usual. What's "DRM infected" anyway? The player supports playback of DRM protected content, yes. How exactly does that translate to "DRM infected"? Nobody is forcing anybody to use DRM for their own files.

[dohcmark8]

Ok. So yesterday I encoded a 720p video in one hour... today with compression optimization on, the same video took five hours... that is unacceptable IMO for a 4 minute video.

I really want to use this as my only HD archiving format... but man even the slowest x264 encodes of this vid only took two hours. :(

So Microsoft... Is there a secret hidden setting or something?!?

[zambelli]

Try enabling 'Compression Optimization Type' to a value of '1' in the registry...

edit: Yeah wow... that one registry setting really makes the videos look MUCH better. Credit goes to 'mpgxsvcd' at the AVS Forum for the find.
As the documentation mentions, that preset controls the following parameters:
Motion Search Level = 1
Motion Match Method = -1
Dquant Option = 2
Motion Search Range = -1
NumBFrames = 1
Motion Vector Cost Method = 1
Force LoopFilter = 1
It also fixes the v_performance level to 60 (if you're familiar with wmcmd.vbs syntax).

You can probably further improve quality by tweaking some of these parameters. For example, Motion Search Level does a better job when set to 2 - but it's a lot slower, too.

[siddharthagandhi]

Yes, but you can't cut codecs breaks. In the real world, it is survival of the fittest. And if it can't beat the other codecs, then its bye-bye. But for a codec as popular as this one its going to take a little more than a slight decrease in quality for the codec to die out. Darwin's theories man....

[bond]

the installer (not only the wmp11 one, but also the codec one cruncher pointed to) installs m$' drm system, thats what i call "drm infected"

as i am someone who wants to test the encoder and decoder (and not the drm) i asked if someone has manged to install the encoder and decoder without the other stuff around it?

[zambelli]

It hurted PSNR quite badly on the HP2 trailer (~0.4 dB). Also interesting to see that using b-frames causes a decoding delay.
Yeah, PSNR is likely to decrease when Dquant optimization and Loopfilter are used. This preset yields better perceived quality because it involves some filtering, but PSNR might not reflect that. Try SSIM instead.

Good parameters to experiment with:
NumBFrames
Dquant Option
Dquant Strength
Force LoopFilter
Motion Search Level
Motion Search Range
Motion Match Method
In my experience, some combination of these parameters will usually give you the best quality for a given video.

If you're using wmcmd.vbs for encoding, varying -v_performance between 60, 80 and 100 will give you different quality results too. However, expect 80 and 100 to be slower than the default 60.

[dohcmark8]

Retracted (See post #39): Ok... I believe we were taken in by hype.. I really wanted to like this codec.. but I just cant... I havent formed a final opinion yet and and am still experimenting with this...

Using 'Compression Optimization Type' on a video makes the decoder requirement increase thus making the video stutter in WMP11 for me. Keeping in mind I can play a VC1 1080p24 encode at the same cpu usage as a Comp Opt enabled 720p vid but the 1080p vid plays smoothly. It also makes encoding ridiculously slow... even half the speed of a HQ x264 encode.

Same exact video:

Compression Optimization Type = 1 on a video increases decoding requirments on the CPU by 30%. Thus making it right in line with non-CoreAVC AVC decoders.

[zambelli]

the installer (not only the wmp11 one, but also the codec one cruncher pointed to) installs m$' drm system, thats what i call "drm infected"
Oh no! DRM! What's it going to do, steal your wallet while you sleep?
If you're not purchasing DRM protected music/movies from online stores - which I assume you're not - I really don't see how just having WM DRM binaries on your system affects you in any way.
But to each their own, I guess. Have you thought about investing into one of these: http://zapatopi.net/afdb? :sly:

[bond]

noone knows what it does or will do somewhen ;)

apart from that
- i dont need it
- i dont want it
- i dont give a damn about it
so why should i install it?

anyways is there a way to register the decoder/encoder without running the installer?

[zambelli]

anyways is there a way to register the decoder/encoder without running the installer?
Yes, theoretically, but in practice it could get tricky because the DLLs are named differently, have different dependencies and the encoders are grouped differently within them than they were in v10. Doing this manually could be an arduous task. I've never really attempted to do this... like I said, we have a standalone WMV9 AP DMO that fits into the v10 world a lot better and we're trying to release that soon.

[dohcmark8]

Ok I wanna retract my previous statement. The video stuttering was a problem on my PC not the codec. Sorry MS.

Anyway... now I'm just playing with it, so I can get some good quality but a bit faster speed wise than with the compression optimization option enabled.

Hey Zambelli, what setting in the comp opt decreases the speed the most?

[zambelli]

Hey Zambelli, what setting in the comp opt decreases the speed the most?
Motion Search Level and Motion Search Range, most likely.

[dohcmark8]

Motion Search Level and Motion Search Range, most likely.

Thanks.

[siddharthagandhi]

I did another comparison. There is a pretty big improvement (btw I used Windows Media Encoder 9 with the AP 9 codec) compared to the leaked version, but the tweaking of settings could also account for that. Nonetheless, it does not beat Xvid, x264, or ND AVC, although I haven't compared it to RealVideo. It was just a brief and quick test, so I don't have any shots or PSNR's to tell you. But the visual quality was evident. I tweaked most of the settings, except for the weird ones. I went for maximum quality without regard to the encoding time. And the encode was LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG....

If anyone gets different results post them and say your tweaks and stuff....maybe I'm doing something wrong.

But its not a totally bad codec. My results show that it is definetly is better than VP7 and similar "other" codecs, and probably it is better than Divx 6.2.2, although the contest is close.

[zambelli]

Zambelli, can you confirm that Nic's wmencoder is using the correct codec?
Yes, just verified that.

[dohcmark8]

So... any chance the codec will get some optimizations to speed up encoding time.. by say official WMP11 release?

[Blight]

zambelli:
Do these new codecs improve on the WMF -> DirectShow bridging filters? There are several bugs in the bridging filters that prevent WMV from being properly played under DirectShow.

I'm referring to:
1. Inability to change language on a multi-language WMV file (graph freezes or audio mutes).
2. WM streaming (under DirectShow) just cutting out all by itself, while streaming using the WMF SDK doesn't disconnect.

[zambelli]

So... any chance the codec will get some optimizations to speed up encoding time.. by say official WMP11 release?
It's possible. If you have specific data, such as comparisons with other encoders - that's always useful.

[zambelli]

Do these new codecs improve on the WMF -> DirectShow bridging filters? There are several bugs in the bridging filters that prevent WMV from being properly played under DirectShow.
The codecs don't, but the new WMF SDK runtime does update those filters. If you're willing to install WMP11 beta, give it a try. If those two issues still repro, send me a PM and I'll open bugs on the WMF SDK.

[scilli]

I have never really encoded in WMV.. I recently stoped encoding to Mpeg2 for DVD, and am now just using x264. But since your the only MS insider I've ever seen in a forum, and you don't come off as member of an "evil empire", I'll give it a try Zambelli.:)

[GodofaGap]

Thanks Zambelli for your help so far.

A new question: does anyone know how to enter a negative DWORD value in the registry? (like -1)

[foxyshadis]

Subtract it from 2^32. ie, -1 is 4294967295.

[LordDethstar]

I have done a small test encoding a short stretch of anime at 600 kbps using main and ap (two encodes). I have also encoded the same stretch using XVID, X264, QuEnc (MPEG2), VP7, Theora (libtheora 1.0alpha5), and the Windows Media 9 VCM. I have come to the following conclusions.

WM9AP:
The only encoder that I could actually use without crashing when feeding it my AviSynth script was Nic's Encoder. The results were mixed. The picture was nice and clear, but degraded if there was a lot of motion. The encoder also appeared to drop frames, which is unacceptable (is there a way to turn it of). Encoding speed was not the best, but acceptable.

WM9:
As above, except that the picture quality way worse. Same frame-dropping problem.

XVID:
Better that WM9AP's worse-quality frames, but not as good as its best frames. The quality was consistent. 600 kbps per second is apparently not enough for XVID and anime. Used default setting + VHQ4 (+for b-frames) + GMC + Cartoon Mode + Adaptive Quant + Chrome Optimization.

X264:
Provided the best quality of all, providing a good picture at all times. This comparison is probably not fair, as I did not use all the quality setting available: --ref 2 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --subme 5 --analyse all --8x8dct. Still it beat all other codecs. Encoding speed was the best of all codecs.

QuEnc:
MPEG2 is not a good codec for low bitrates. No comment.

VP7:
The quality is almost as good as X264, except when text fades in or out (blocking). The encoding speed was 2-4 fps on my Athlon 64 x2 3800, which is unacceptable.

Theora:
I am still trying to decide if this really looks better that the MPEG2 version.

WM9VCM:
This one actually did not skip any frames. The quality was close to that of XVID.

At 600 kbps, the only codec I would use is X264. VP7 has a decent quality as well, but encoding is unacceptably slow.

WM9AP did have a decent picture quality (as far as I could see), and the cpu load while playing is back was undetectable on my maching. However, unless the problem with the frame skipping is solved, I won't ever consider it.