WMV9 AP Information Discussion

[dohcmark8]

I've heard of people having frame-drop problems with WME9... I personally have never experienced that problem and I've been playing with WM9 for months now.

I'd try feeding WME the video and audio seperately... I always do this and have never had a problem.

It's possible. If you have specific data, such as comparisons with other encoders - that's always useful.

Sure. As soon as I finish this 4-day long (WME ETA) VC-1 720p encode I have going here... :)

Another side effect of comp opt.. is that it gives slightly smaller file sizes. :)

[Sagittaire]

I have done a small test encoding a short stretch of anime at 600 kbps using main and ap (two encodes). I have also encoded the same stretch using XVID, X264, QuEnc (MPEG2), VP7, Theora (libtheora 1.0alpha5), and the Windows Media 9 VCM. I have come to the following conclusions.

WM9AP:
The only encoder that I could actually use without crashing when feeding it my AviSynth script was Nic's Encoder. The results were mixed. The picture was nice and clear, but degraded if there was a lot of motion. The encoder also appeared to drop frames, which is unacceptable (is there a way to turn it of). Encoding speed was not the best, but acceptable.

WM9:
As above, except that the picture quality way worse. Same frame-dropping problem.

XVID:
Better that WM9AP's worse-quality frames, but not as good as its best frames. The quality was consistent. 600 kbps per second is apparently not enough for XVID and anime. Used default setting + VHQ4 (+for b-frames) + GMC + Cartoon Mode + Adaptive Quant + Chrome Optimization.

X264:
Provided the best quality of all, providing a good picture at all times. This comparison is probably not fair, as I did not use all the quality setting available: --ref 2 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --subme 5 --analyse all --8x8dct. Still it beat all other codecs. Encoding speed was the best of all codecs.

QuEnc:
MPEG2 is not a good codec for low bitrates. No comment.

VP7:
The quality is almost as good as X264, except when text fades in or out (blocking). The encoding speed was 2-4 fps on my Athlon 64 x2 3800, which is unacceptable.

Theora:
I am still trying to decide if this really looks better that the MPEG2 version.

WM9VCM:
This one actually did not skip any frames. The quality was close to that of XVID.

At 600 kbps, the only codec I would use is X264. VP7 has a decent quality as well, but encoding is unacceptably slow.

WM9AP did have a decent picture quality (as far as I could see), and the cpu load while playing is back was undetectable on my maching. However, unless the problem with the frame skipping is solved, I won't ever consider it.

really good eyes ... exactly like me ... ;-)

New VC-1 AP use really agressive Rate Control for high texture/high motion frame. But IMO VC-1 is visually really better than MPEG4 ASP for very low bitrate.

Be carefull if you want the best possible quality you must use PP1 for post process strenght.

[benwaggoner]

I'm a Microsoft guy now too (Program Manager for Video Encoding in the Professional Content Group. We're the folks working on the new Windows Media Encoder Studio Edition, which is coming out soon, and has a GUI for many of these parameters).

Speaking of good quality/speed combos, I'm no Zambelli, but for HD DVD style encodes, we've had good luck with Motion Search Level of -2 (Macroblock adaptive with integer chroma search). At little faster than the default -1, and can actually look a little better in some cases.

1 B-frame is good for high bitrate HD, 2 B-frames as data rates get lower.

The new codec is also 4-way multithreaded, so a dual-dual is the performance sweet spot. Real cores are a lot better than hyperthreading for encoding.

If you're doing 1-pass CBR encoding (which really is only for real-time encoding these days), use the Lookahead parameter, which improves rate control. Maxing it out to 16 can be quite helpful for real-time broadcasting (albeit with increased latency).

And again, I can't emphasize enough that the codec is optimized for real-world video quality, not PSNR. Use your eyes on comparisions to other codecs.

[Sagittaire]

@ benwaggoner

wellcome on this forum ... ;-)

"And again, I can't emphasize enough that the codec is optimized for real-world video quality, not PSNR. Use your eyes on comparisions to other codecs."


Quality Comparison
VC-1 achieves clearly superior quality to MPEG-2 at comparable bit rates, and has been judged superior to H.264 in several independent studies.

Measuring the quality of a video codec is not easy, because the reconstructed image is not meant to be identical to the original. Ideally, only information that is perceptually irrelevant will be lost in the compression/decompression process, but what counts as "irrelevant" depends on the viewer's subjective response.

One useful objective metric is the peak signal-to-noise ratio (PSNR) plotted against bit rate. PSNR is the ratio between the maximum value of a signal (255 for 8-bit video) and the quantization noise. A higher PSNR indicates a less noisy signal. For any codec, PSNR is expected to increase at higher bit rates, because higher bit rates translate to less aggressive compression. Thus, a graph that plots PSNR against bit rate shows the performance of the codec over a range of compression settings.

In Microsoft's own internal tests, VC-1 performs 2 to 3 times better than MPEG-2. In other words, to achieve a given PSNR, MPEG-2 requires a bit rate up to 3 times higher than VC-1. These results were measured using both low-motion and high-motion video sequences. Microsoft also compared VC-1 with H.264 and found that both codecs have comparable performance when PSNR is plotted against bit rate.

The final arbiter of codec quality is the subjective appearance of the decoded video. In subjective tests, the perceived quality of VC-1 equals or exceeds that of H.264. The DVD Forum conducted tests in the winter of 2002 to select codecs for the next-generation red-laser HD-DVD. Viewers from Hollywood film studios and major consumer electronics companies rated video clips on a scale of 1 to 5 for resolution, noise, and overall impression. Multiple codecs were tested, including MPEG-2, VC-1, H.264, and MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile. The baselines against which the codecs were compared were D5 masters and D-VHS (24 Mbps). During the tests, viewers were not told which codec was used to encode each of the clips.

On all three measures (resolution, noise, and overall impression), the quality of VC-1 was judged closest to the original D5 master. By comparison, the H.264 codec was rated as comparable only to MPEG-2 on two of the three measures (resolution and overall impression), and was rated somewhat worse than VC-1 on noise.

VC-1 has performed well in other independent subjective quality tests:
DV Magazine found VC-1 to be superior to both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4.
TANDBERG Television found VC-1 produces significantly better quality than MPEG-2 and comparable quality to H.264. These results were presented at the 2003 International Broadcasting Convention (IBC).
C'T Magazine, Germany's premiere audio-video magazine, compared various codecs, including VC-1, H.264, and MPEG-2, and selected VC-1 as producing the best subjective and objective quality for high-definition (HD) video.
The European Broadcasting Union (EBU) found VC-1 had the most consistent quality in tests that compared VC-1, RealMedia V9, the Envivio MPEG-4 encoder, and the Apple MPEG-4 encoder.

... and it's false ... ;)

1) For metric H264 done better result and by far (for all resolution, source and bitrate).

2) for my eyes H264 done better result and by far (for all resolution, source and particulary in low bitrate scenario).

3) Good MPEG2 encoder done very good result too and certainely not with 2-3 ratio bitrate like in high bitrate HD-DVD scenario.

[pwimmer]

I've encoded a few samples in WVC1 and WMV3 but I can't see any improvement over the old WMV3 codec. Of course I also tried the 'Compression Optimization Type' Registry option.

The only difference i've noticed: The new one takes 2x - 4x as long to encode.

There must be something wrong with the WVC1 codec included in the WMP 11 Beta (at least I hope there is and that a better version will follow).

I expected that the new WVC1 codec will catch up to H.264, since Microsoft always claimed quality of VC-1 and H.264 is approximately the same. But it didn't.

[benwaggoner]

I've encoded a few samples in WVC1 and WMV3 but I can't see any improvement over the old WMV3 codec. Of course I also tried the 'Compression Optimization Type' Registry option.
Can you share some details of your scenario, or a link to the encoded file? We might be able to recommend some different settings. One thing I really like is to use integer chroma search, which isn't on by default in the above.

When we ship Studio Edition, that'll change a lot of stuff, since it'll be the first mainstream tool for an advanced codec that will offer scene-by-scene reencoding. So you can tweak encoding parameters for particular shots (not a lot of options in the really-soon-now beta, but a lot more coming in 1.0).

There must be something wrong with the WVC1 codec included in the WMP 11 Beta (at least I hope there is and that a better version will follow).

Well, WMP11 is a beta, and clearly the video codec wasn't Job #1 for the release :). Help us find places and scenarios where we aren't doing as well as you'd like or expect, and let's see if we can help tweak settings, or find something we can share with our developers.

While codec standards can be completed, codec implementations never are :).

[Nic]

I'll be updating my Windows Media Encoder app so you can adjust the Advanced Profile Registry settings from it. I'll also do some testing and see how things compare.

Thanks for the updates Zambelli,

-Nic

[GodofaGap]

Can zambelli or benwaggoner provide a list of the default settings in the codec? Sometimes when I add a registry value, I find that it doesn't change anything at all just because I used the default setting. :)

[dohcmark8]

Can zambelli or benwaggoner provide a list of the default settings in the codec? Sometimes when I add a registry value, I find that it doesn't change anything at all just because I used the default setting. :)

I believe removing everything but the number of threads settings puts the codec back on default settings.

[zambelli]

Well, WMP11 is a beta, and clearly the video codec wasn't Job #1 for the release :). Help us find places and scenarios where we aren't doing as well as you'd like or expect, and let's see if we can help tweak settings, or find something we can share with our developers.
While codec standards can be completed, codec implementations never are :).
That's worth repeating. We're expecting VC-1 to be around for a long time (just look at MPEG-2 and its DVD legacy) so even though we might call some version later this year "final", development will continue for quite some time. With your help, we can make it better.

And welcome to the forums, Ben! :)

[zambelli]

This is something I made for myself while testing WMV9AP.
http://microsoftuse.temp.powweb.com/mcored/downloads/dvd2wmvassistant-1.3beta1-bin.zip
I somehow missed your post first time around. :)
That's a cool tool. Make sure you take a look at the updated list of Advanced Profile settings - there's now almost twice as many settings to configure in WVC1.

I was wondering why you call "WMV9 Advanced Profile (WVC1) video codec BETA" in the first post. Isn't WVC1 finalized yet? or are you just calling it beta because WMP11 is beta?
The spec is finalized, but the implementation can continue being improved forever. The "beta" coincides nicely with WMP11 being beta, but also conveys where we currently are in the development process - doing pretty well, but still not 100% confident.

[zambelli]

I believe removing everything but the number of threads settings puts the codec back on default settings.
Yeah, that's a good method of setting defaults. In most cases "0" is the same as the default value, although there are some exceptions but I think they are noted in that web page.

[pwimmer]

Can you share some details of your scenario, or a link to the encoded file? We might be able to recommend some different settings. One thing I really like is to use integer chroma search, which isn't on by default in the above.

Here are some sample files.

Nero H264 6 Mbps: http://www.3dtv.at/Temp/Test_1440x576_H264_6Mbps.mpg

WMV3 (using old WME9 codec) 6 Mbps: http://www.3dtv.at/Temp/Test_1440x576_Old_WMV3_6Mbps.wmv

WMV3 (using old WME9 codec) 8 Mbps: http://www.3dtv.at/Temp/Test_1440x576_Old_WMV3_8Mbps.wmv

WVC1 6 Mbps: http://www.3dtv.at/Temp/Test_1440x576_WVC1_6Mbps.wmv

The old WMV3 and WVC1 6 Mbps files basically look the same. The 8 Mbps file is better, but still worse than the H264 file. My guess is that Windows Media requires a 50% higher bitrate compared to H264 at this resolution. I didn't do any tests at low resolutions and bit rates.

Anyway, I'll continue to use Windows Media for two reasons:
I can't play the H264 file on my Pentium D 2 x 3 GHz without dropped frames and I need DRM.

Here's a screenshot of my Registry settings.

http://www.3dtv.at/Temp/WVC1Reg.gif

[Sagittaire]

Anyway, I'll continue to use Windows Media for two reasons:
I can't play the H264 file on my Pentium D 2 x 3 GHz without dropped frames and I need DRM.

My little sempron 2.1 Ghz can play 1920*1088 H264 sample with coreAVC decoder ... ;-)

[pwimmer]

My little sempron 2.1 Ghz can play 1920*1088 H264 sample with coreAVC decoder ... ;-)

Unfortunately I use a different one. That's reason 3 to use Windows Media: no decoder hassle :-) It's preinstalled on every Windows system and it's free.

[Doom9]

That's reason 3 to use Windows Media: no decoder hassle :-) It's preinstalled on every Windows system and it's free.Actually.. it isn't. A WinXP, even with SP2 slipstreamed lacks the WMV9 runtime, let alone the VC-1 one. Of course there's automatic download.. and it's obvious that Microsoft will not add alternative codecs to the autodownload list, but you don't have the codecs right out of the box - and in a corporate environment where software installation is centrally controlled, windows media player won't be able to download and install those codecs.

I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of evil for AVC (DRM ;).. didn't Nero have something, too? But if you think you need DRM, ask your customers.. they know better..

[dohcmark8]

Here's a informative thread about VC-1 encoding over at AVS... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678185&highlight=wmp11

[GodofaGap]

I believe removing everything but the number of threads settings puts the codec back on default settings.
Obviously, but this is not what I asked. :)

If I add "Force B Frame Delta QP" with value 2 to the registry, it will effectively change nothing because 2 is the default value anyway. So I'd like to know what the defaults are, because if I'm trying to use a setting I don't want to run in the defaults each time. It saves me encoding time. :)

For some the defaults are given, but not for others.

[dohcmark8]

Obviously, but this is not what I asked. :)

If I add "Force B Frame Delta QP" with value 2 to the registry, it will effectively change nothing because 2 is the default value anyway. So I'd like to know what the defaults are, because if I'm trying to use a setting I don't want to run in the defaults each time. It saves me encoding time. :)

For some the defaults are given, but not for others.

Have you taken a look at this? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx

[GodofaGap]

Yes I have, not for every setting the defaults are given there.

[benwaggoner]

Actually.. it isn't. A WinXP, even with SP2 slipstreamed lacks the WMV9 runtime, let alone the VC-1 one. Of course there's automatic download.. and it's obvious that Microsoft will not add alternative codecs to the autodownload list, but you don't have the codecs right out of the box - and in a corporate environment where software installation is centrally controlled, windows media player won't be able to download and install those codecs.
Actually SP2 includes the upgrade to WMP9. WVC1 is available on the codec download server for WMP9 and WMP10, and of course is included with WMP11.

I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of evil for AVC (DRM ;).. didn't Nero have something, too? But if you think you need DRM, ask your customers.. they know better..
Any HD DVD or Blu-ray player uses DRM, on top of any codec. Codecs and DRM are orthogonal. And DRM is a value-add in a player - non DRM'ed content works fine on a DRM-capable player, but DRM'ed content will not work on a player without DRM.

[zambelli]

Actually.. it isn't. A WinXP, even with SP2 slipstreamed lacks the WMV9 runtime, let alone the VC-1 one.
That's not true. SP2 includes WMP10 (or WMP9 - can't remember exactly), so all new XP systems (retail and preinstalled) have WMV9 decoders installed.

You are right about Advanced Profile though: the WVC1 decoder is not preinstalled and automatic codec download will be triggered the first time you play a WVC1 file in WMP.

Of course there's automatic download.. and it's obvious that Microsoft will not add alternative codecs to the autodownload list
To be clear, the reasons behind Microsoft not hosting any 3rd party codecs are: security, support and security. :) We used to host some 3rd party codecs such as ACELP.net and Voxware on the codec server back in the day, but it quickly became evident that we couldn't support code that wasn't ours (and in the case of old codecs such as Voxware and Indeo - wasn't even truly supported by their legal owners) and then during the SP2 security push it became even less desirable to keep pushing untested (potentially exploitable) 3rd party code to customers.

Having said all that... I think the Microsoft codec server system could be corrected and improved with a WHQL-like process in place. Codecs could be treated like drivers - it seems logical. But I'm not in a position to make those type of calls.

[Doom9]

SP2 includes WMP10 (or WMP9 - can't remember exactly),it's WMP9. It seems I can play WMV9 content without having installed anything extra but I was quite sure of being unable to play WMV stuff on another machine (where I didn't even have admin privileges and was thus unable to install the codec). But it has been a while so it might've been an SP1 machine.

As far as installing codec without the player goes, you can download the player and open the exe with winrar (and I suppose also other zippers), extract wmf11dist.exe, then install just that.

[dohcmark8]

So whats the difference between the macroblock and luma settings in the 'Motion Search Level' ?

[benwaggoner]

So whats the difference between the macroblock and luma settings in the 'Motion Search Level' ?
Macroblock adapative is what you want, pretty much anytime you get that option in the codec. It basically means "figure out the right option for each macroblock." Zambelli will need to remind me what this particular macroblock mode does :).

Motion Search Macroblock Adaptive is very cool - it dynamically selects the optimum motion search mode among the bottom three choices (shorter vectors are more efficient with lower motion, since they user fewer bits).

[dohcmark8]

I found that if you disable compression optimization and manually add the settings yourself... that encoding time will be MUCH MUCH faster... but you will get slightly bigger file sizes.

So that means another question for the Microsoft guys... what else does compression optimization do?

I mean..

VC1 @ QVBR 89
---------------------

1 - 00:00:00:51 - Average 3257.58 Kbps - Comp Type Optimization = 0

2 - 00:00:03:21 - Average 2448.02 Kbps - Comp Type Optimization = 1

3 - 00:00:01:08 - Average 3186.2 Kbps - Comp Type Optimization = 0, 2 bframes, loopfilter on, motion search level -2, motion method -1, duant opt 2, motion search range -1, motion vector cost method = 1, macroblock mode cost method = 1, motion vector coding method = 3

Any suggestions are far as getting the bitrate down with #3?

[benwaggoner]

3 - 00:00:01:08 - Average 3186.2 Kbps - Comp Type Optimization = 0, 2 bframes, loopfilter on, motion search level -2, motion method -1, duant opt 2, motion search range -1, motion vector cost method = 1, macroblock mode cost method = 1, motion vector coding method = 3

Any suggestions are far as getting the bitrate down with #3?
You could try a higher DQuant strength

If the content is noisy, Force Median can help (it excludes noise when calculating motion vectors)

Force Overlap=1
Motion Match Method=-1
Perceptual Option=1

[dohcmark8]

You could try a higher DQuant strength

If the content is noisy, Force Median can help (it excludes noise when calculating motion vectors)

Force Overlap=1
Motion Match Method=-1
Perceptual Option=1

Thanks.

When I used DQuant 3 the bitrate actually shot up by about 500 Kbps.

The content is actually a 720p live music performance. So it should be clean other than the blocking artifacts which I deal with in DGDecode via cpu=4.

[benwaggoner]

Thanks.

When I used DQuant 3 the bitrate actually shot up by about 500 Kbps.

DQuant 3 is the DQuant LEVEL. I mean increasing the STRENGTH (1-3, or 0 for codec chooses). That said, it's something you'd experiment with, not always use.

Also, if Zambelli and I disagree, do what Zambelli says :).

[dohcmark8]

DQuant 3 is the DQuant LEVEL. I mean increasing the STRENGTH (1-3, or 0 for codec chooses). That said, it's something you'd experiment with, not always use.

Also, if Zambelli and I disagree, do what Zambelli says :).

Thanks. I encoded.. the video encoded in under an hour compared to 5 hours with comp opt on.. :)

It looks awesome. Now to start archiving everything with VC-1. :)

Anyway, I think I found a bug or something... If I encode with default settings and comp opt off and play in WMP11 the video plays back perfectly... but if I encode with my above posted settings or with just comp opt on.. the video will playback in WMP11 but the video will start stuttering like its skipping frames, the audio still playsback however, but if I pause the video and then hit play it will be fine again. My CPU useage during this is 30-50% so I have enough power. I wonder if anyone else has experience this. The troublesome videos however playback perfectly fine in Zoom Player and VLC.

It could just be a hardware problem. I'm gonna try re-installing my video card drivers and WMP11.

[zambelli]

As far as installing codec without the player goes, you can download the player and open the exe with winrar (and I suppose also other zippers), extract wmf11dist.exe, then install just that.
Sure, but like I already told Cruncher, WMP10 (or 9) running with WMF11 bits is an unsupported and untested scenario. I advise against it, but I can't control what people do. Proceed at your own risk.

[zambelli]

3 - 00:00:01:08 - Average 3186.2 Kbps - Comp Type Optimization = 0, 2 bframes, loopfilter on, motion search level -2, motion method -1, duant opt 2, motion search range -1, motion vector cost method = 1, macroblock mode cost method = 1, motion vector coding method = 3
If you're setting all these overrides manually, you might as well exclude Comp Type Optimization entirely. The one thing that COT does that you can't override with another registry settings is the encoder complexity. It sets it to 3 (on a scale from 0 to 5). If you want to do the same thing, you have to either use the -v_performance parameter in wmcmd.vbs, or move the performance slider in WME9 Options.

[dohcmark8]

If you're setting all these overrides manually, you might as well exclude Comp Type Optimization entirely. The one thing that COT does that you can't override with another registry settings is the encoder complexity. It sets it to 3 (on a scale from 0 to 5). If you want to do the same thing, you have to either use the -v_performance parameter in wmcmd.vbs, or move the performance slider in WME9 Options.

Thanks. I'd imagine any codec is slow at inception but slowly speeds up as development continues (XViD, x264, etc).

I hope we get to see VC-1 playback implemented for the Xbox 360 and then I will be all set.

But with my new settings, its more than fast enough for me, and the quality is awesome. And I wanna say good job to the guys at Microsoft for this great codec. :)

Now if we could just get Mr. Waggoner to release the Studio Edition Beta so we could have something else to play with... Can we expect it this month?

[benwaggoner]

I hope we get to see VC-1 playback implemented for the Xbox 360 and then I will be all set.
Main Profile already works!

But with my new settings, its more than fast enough for me, and the quality is awesome. And I wanna say good job to the guys at Microsoft for this great codec. :)
Gratifying to hear (not that I can personally take any credit for the codec).

Now if we could just get Mr. Waggoner to release the Studio Edition Beta so we could have something else to play with... Can we expect it this month?
We're working hard to get the beta out as soon as possible. The good news is that due to the delays we're going to be able to get some more fixes and tweaks in there, so it won't be just a late release, but a later, better release.

FYI, we've also committed to adding support for Main Profile and VC-1 elementary stream encoding this year post-beta. But the initial release will be Advanced Profile only.

[dohcmark8]

Sorry if I keep asking so many questions.

Which setting would increase decoding requirements?

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Scrunch\WMVideo]
"Force NumThreads"=dword:00000001
"Force LoopFilter"=dword:00000001
"Motion Search Level"=dword:ffffff62
"Motion Match Method"=dword:ffffff61
"Dquant Option"=dword:00000002
"Motion Search Range"=dword:ffffff61
"NumBFrames"=dword:00000002
"Motion Vector Cost Method"=dword:00000001
"Macroblock Mode Cost Method"=dword:00000001
"Motion Vector Coding Method"=dword:00000000

Thanks.

[easyfab]

Is it also possible to play WVC1 on smartphone?
I have a svp c600 (WM2005) and try to play a WVC1 file but the fourcc "WVC1" is not recognize.
Is it possible to do an WMP codec update?

[bond]

Yes, theoretically, but in practice it could get tricky because the DLLs are named differently, have different dependencies and the encoders are grouped differently within them than they were in v10. Doing this manually could be an arduous task. I've never really attempted to do this... like I said, we have a standalone WMV9 AP DMO that fits into the v10 world a lot better and we're trying to release that soon.cool, thanks

will there also be a way to encode with vc-1 into .mpg/.ts as smpte defines it (eg for hddvd/bluray compliance...)

[Guest]

will there also be a way to encode with vc-1 into .mpg/.ts as smpte defines it (eg for hddvd/bluray compliance...) Of course! See here:

http://neuron2.net/misc/rp227.pdf

I have the other VC-1 specs, too, if you are interested.

[bratao]

Really Too bad that it dont run in Windows 2003...

I have a *legal* Windows 2003 , using like a workstation, but i cant install because its Windows Xp only.. this is insane..
The win2003 has a 98% complatible kernel with xp and the m$ out restritions

[benwaggoner]

Sorry if I keep asking so many questions.

Which setting would increase decoding requirements?

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Scrunch\WMVideo]
"Force NumThreads"=dword:00000001
"Force LoopFilter"=dword:00000001
"Motion Search Level"=dword:ffffff62
"Motion Match Method"=dword:ffffff61
"Dquant Option"=dword:00000002
"Motion Search Range"=dword:ffffff61
"NumBFrames"=dword:00000002
"Motion Vector Cost Method"=dword:00000001
"Macroblock Mode Cost Method"=dword:00000001
"Motion Vector Coding Method"=dword:00000000

Thanks.
You never have to aplogize for asking how to get better results out of our technology!

The Loop Filter definitley increases decoder load - it'll make the single biggest difference. Using B-frames will increase load a little bit. The others shouldn't have much decode impact.

[Wilbert]

Sure, but like I already told Cruncher, WMP10 (or 9) running with WMF11 bits is an unsupported and untested scenario. I advise against it, but I can't control what people do. Proceed at your own risk.
I'm a bit confused. I have W2K and use WMP6.4. Can I use those codecs?

[Valeron]

here's a screen shot from Nic's WMNicEnc 1.0 alpha

[benwaggoner]

Is it also possible to play WVC1 on smartphone?
I have a svp c600 (WM2005) and try to play a WVC1 file but the fourcc "WVC1" is not recognize.
Is it possible to do an WMP codec update?
You'd need a new version of the smartphone player.

Due to the decoder requirements of devices like phones, "WMV3" will probably remain dominant. In fact, PlaysForSure video is Simple profile only, although some devices will at least try to do Main decode.

Now, most of the encoding improvement are applicable to Main Profile, and some to Simple, so you'll get some gains there.

[benwaggoner]

I'm a bit confused. I have W2K and use WMP6.4. Can I use those codecs?
If it does work, it's certainly not supported. Decode should at least be possible in WMP9 for Win 2000, though.

Any particular reason you're not on XP yet? Fewer and fewer media apps support 2000 at this point.

[LordDethstar]

I have now tried another encode using Nic's new 1.0alpha encoder app (since the WM9 Encoder does not appear to like my AVS scripts). This time I tried to encode without audio.

The quality was actually better than with my previous tests, and it appeared to be a viable codec, except that it still dropped frames during high-motion scenes (600 kbps for 640x480 anime should be enough).

Is there any way to get WM9 not to drop frames during encoding? It is the worst thing a codec can do, and no blocking is even nearly as bad as dropped frames.

[dohcmark8]

I have now tried another encode using Nic's new 1.0alpha encoder app (since the WM9 Encoder does not appear to like my AVS scripts). This time I tried to encode without audio.

The quality was actually better than with my previous tests, and it appeared to be a viable codec, except that it still dropped frames during high-motion scenes (600 kbps for 640x480 anime should be enough).

Is there any way to get WM9 not to drop frames during encoding? It is the worst thing a codec can do, and no blocking is even nearly as bad as dropped frames.

You can get AVS scripts working in WME by choosing 'both file and device' in the sources menu.

Are you sure its the encoder dropping frames? I've never experienced the encoder dropping frames in WM9.

Try playing your video in another player and see what happens.

[dohcmark8]

Hey Microsoft.. I think I can confirm there is a issue with WMP stuttering (dropping frames) on VC-1 playback with WMP11. I tried it on three different systems (Athlon 3200+, P4 2.8, Centrino 1.76).

The videos will just not play back smoothly. Unless you hit pause then playback again then they will work for a few seconds. CPU usage is high (60-70% and sometimes shoots up to 97%) during playback. if I disable 'drop frames to maintain a/v sync' in WMP then the vids will work fine... but will lose sync on longer videos. However, on other players the videos will play fine.

All my videos I've encoded so far are 720p and if these cant be played back smoothly on 2.5ghz and up systems, then the codec is not worth using.

Maybe some decoder optimizations are in order?

I cant find where to file a bug report for the WMP11 beta and the VC-1 decoder. If you guys could look into this, it would be great. I wouldnt mind sending you a sample video if need be.

[zambelli]

Due to the decoder requirements of devices like phones, "WMV3" will probably remain dominant. In fact, PlaysForSure video is Simple profile only, although some devices will at least try to do Main decode.
Now, most of the encoding improvement are applicable to Main Profile, and some to Simple, so you'll get some gains there.
Right. The advantage of supporting Advanced Profile on a Smartphone or PocketPC is dubious. The best PocketPC displays only go up to 640x480 and the CPUs already have a hard time rendering anything above 1Mbps. Main Profile already handles that very well, so there's really no advantage in adding AP support to those devices at this time. I stress "at this time". WVC1 decoder is likely to eventually be added to WMP Mobile, but it's not like anybody will be playing 1080p video on Smartphones any time soon. :)

[zambelli]

Hey Microsoft.. I think I can confirm there is a issue with WMP stuttering (dropping frames) on VC-1 playback with WMP11. I tried it on three different systems (Athlon 3200+, P4 2.8, Centrino 1.76).
Are you using WMP11 beta, or did you install the WMF11 runtime on top of WMP10?

All my videos I've encoded so far are 720p and if these cant be played back smoothly on 2.5ghz and up systems, then the codec is not worth using.
I have no trouble playing back 720/24p videos on a 2.8GHz Celeron D, so I doubt it's a decoder problem. I think something else is causing the perf issue here.

If you guys could look into this, it would be great. I wouldnt mind sending you a sample video if need be.
Yeah, if we can't troubleshoot it successfully here, I'll PM you and you can send me a video sample.

[zambelli]

Here's something I forgot to mention, that you'll find interesting:

If you have WMP11/WMF11 beta installed (as opposed to, say, WME9 x64), most of the advanced registry settings will apply to Main Profile (WMV3) encoding, too. I don't remember which ones exactly, but try enabling something like "Compression Optimization Type" and encoding something in vanilla WMV9 - and see if you notice a change.