Haali Renderer

[LoopX3]

I have an ATI 9800 128MB (might not be Pro) and don't have any problems. There is no delay except for loading (~1-2 sec or less).
Other comp specs: P4 2.6, WinXP SP2, DirectX (April 2006), ATI Catalyst 6.4

[LoRd_MuldeR]

CPU increases very much when resize to full screen.

Yes, here too.

[Haali]

Shaders are evaluated once for each destination pixel, so if you go fullscreen there is a lot more work to be done on the gpu. GPU drivers can wait for the gpu to complete rendering by spinning in a tight loop on a cpu, and this contributes to cpu use.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Shaders are evaluated once for each destination pixel, so if you go fullscreen there is a lot more work to be done on the gpu. GPU drivers can wait for the gpu to complete rendering by spinning in a tight loop on a cpu, and this contributes to cpu use.

Interesting. But CPU usage isn't a big problem for me. Does not go higher than 75% at maximum. The problem is the long delay it takes to startup.

What about this: If playback was already started and I press stop and then play again, it will play immediately and *not* freeze. But once I open a new file, it will again freeze for about 15 sec. Seems like the Renderer needs to be re-initialized each time I open a new file. Is there a way to avoid that? Would be some improvement, because then I only had to wait 15 secs one time...

[futurex]

i am still having a problem with playing dvd's with MPC + haali renderer. when i play the VOBs, or any file, it works fine. but when i open the dvd as a whole, mpc crashes after i try to seek

dscaler as the decoder. all is well when i change to overlay/vmr. this happens wit every dvd :(

[flanger216]

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

It also happens on my 512MB Radeon x1300 : about a 15-second delay, during which I get 100% CPU usage.

[Sirber]

Works #1 on my X800XL 256MB. The more buffer I ask the more delay I get on start.

@flanger216

The decoder work at top speed to fill the buffer before the display start.

@All

Any way to get overlay video mirroring on ATI?

[sillKotscha]

Any way to get overlay video mirroring on ATI?

if you use the official ati drivers and install their own control center as well, then you have to untick the coloured window...

http://i3.tinypic.com/xl9cld.png

and of course use ffdshow for overlay...

http://i3.tinypic.com/xl9gmf.png

[flanger216]

Works #1 on my X800XL 256MB. The more buffer I ask the more delay I get on start.

@flanger216

The decoder work at top speed to fill the buffer before the display start.

@All

Any way to get overlay video mirroring on ATI?

Oh, I know. I'm not complaining; just noting that the mysterious 15-second delay isn't limited to Radeon 9800s.

[Sirber]

@sillKotscha

I don't have the .NET control panel. All I have is ATI Tray Tool (http://www.radeon2.ru/atitray/). I did not find that option yet :(

[edit]

gonna get it :(

[Sirber]

setting the same as you now, still no overlay :(

[edit]

gonna extend desktop and fulslcreen manually then. no problem.

[foxyshadis]

I have a little weirdness with Haali's. Half-D1 video (ye olde VHS) gets double-sized by the renderer, and then resized again when set to full screen. At least, I think it's resizing twice, because it looks aliased as hell, presumably the effect of bicubic's sharper resize. (Especially on low A values, almost looks like point sampling.)

(On the other hand, noticing finally got me to switch on ffdshow's resize. I don't suppose there's any way to do spline resize even partially in a shader...? So much better looking than normal kernel resizers.)

[Haali]

No, resizing is done only once, but the size reported to the player is adjusted so the video fits the screen and is not too small.

[flanger216]

I still have the bug in Zoom Player where enlarging the video past 'full screen' (with 4:3 letterboxed content, for instance) causes the screen to blank out to a black screen.

[B.F.]

Haali
I had a GF6600 card and I had a 5 sec delay on the startup.
Drivers ForceWare 84.25

And I think you need make this autoresizig thing optional.

[Soulhunter]

I have a little weirdness with Haali's. Half-D1 video (ye olde VHS) gets double-sized by the renderer, and then resized again when set to full screen. At least, I think it's resizing twice, because it looks aliased as hell, presumably the effect of bicubic's sharper resize. (Especially on low A values, almost looks like point sampling.)
Looks it like this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=772467&postcount=66) maybe?


Bye

[foxyshadis]

That's referring to the chroma interpolation? No, this is on the luma channel also. I guess that A=0 actually is point sampling, so that kind of makes sense now, and once I thought about it I realized that two bicubic resizes would actually look a lot better than a single huge jump from 320x240 to 1280x1024 anyway (just try it in photoshop, the more resize steps the nicer it looks, although it thickens edges). It's that one huge leap that looks so nasty. So letting ffdshow resize partway under a certain resolution is probably the best way anyway, if you can spare the cpu power.

[Soulhunter]

That's referring to the chroma interpolation?
No, wasnt about chroma interpolation, its some sort of "scaling bug" (jaggy edges) my old radeon produced when feeding RGB stuff with a horizontal resolution above 768 pix. to the overlay!


Bye

[LoRd_MuldeR]

@Haali:

I can playback verious files with only one time initializing the Haali Renderer. This is possible in Gaph Edit. Just keep the renderer on the graph, add new video and connect to existing Renderer. This way I have the "freezing effect", that happens when Haali Renderer is initialized, only one time, and *not* each time I play a new file. A great improvement for me. So I think this should be possible with Players like MPC too, eh? So is it the Renderer itself or a the player that needs to be updatet to support that feture? And if it's the renderer, did you ever think about adding this feature?

[KoD]

I have the same problem with waiting time during starting playback. It's a period in which the CPU is used at 100%. I'd say the length of the wait time is proportional with the CPU one has and not anything else. My 2.4 GHz P4 shows signs of its age.

I have a Radeon 9700Pro (so, even older than the 9800Pro) and no matter what Catalyst driver I have used since the haali renderer appeared, this problem happened all the time.

[Sirber]

normal, you have to fill the buffer, so your CPU decode like crazy to do it. The bigger the buffer you set, the longer the delay is.

[Haali]

normal, you have to fill the buffer, so your CPU decode like crazy to do it. The bigger the buffer you set, the longer the delay is.
This is incorrect. Playback starts immediately while the decoder can proceed on another thead if it can decode more data. I use a rather high priority for the renderer thread, so it's unlikely that a running decoder prevents the renderer from displaying video. Also ppl with slow startup problem experience the delay only when directx objects are initially created, not when playback starts from stopped state. I think it's some unexpected interaction with the driver or directx that causes such a long delay.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

This is incorrect. Playback starts immediately while the decoder can proceed on another thead if it can decode more data. I use a rather high priority for the renderer thread, so it's unlikely that a running decoder prevents the renderer from displaying video. Also ppl with slow startup problem experience the delay only when directx objects are initially created, not when playback starts from stopped state. I think it's some unexpected interaction with the driver or directx that causes such a long delay.

Ist here a way to fix that :confused:

[B.F.]

This is incorrect. Playback starts immediately while the decoder can proceed on another thead if it can decode more data. I use a rather high priority for the renderer thread, so it's unlikely that a running decoder prevents the renderer from displaying video. Also ppl with slow startup problem experience the delay only when directx objects are initially created, not when playback starts from stopped state. I think it's some unexpected interaction with the driver or directx that causes such a long delay.

Can you make a render priority lower?

[Haali]

Can you make a render priority lower?
I don't want to do that, because the renderer needs to display frames at the requested timestamps. If it had a low priority, then decoding could interfere with that and increase jitter.

[Haali]

Ist here a way to fix that :confused:
There probably is, but so far the cause is not clear.

[celtic_druid]

Unfortunatly I changed too much in my system to determine what exactly fixed the problem here.
Different video cards.
Different CPU.
Different MB chipsets.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

There probably is, but so far the cause is not clear.

Is there any way I can help to find the problem ???

[mike_lee]

Haali, I'm like a big fan - haha, to me you are a rock star - I don't know why I got that impression :-)
Anyway, I am trying to use my new PC with g a eforce 7900 GTX card. I like ffdshow because I can change image settings (using ffpresets) on the fly. I have to moniter and review a lot of video clips at once. At around 6 clips the screen starts to get cluttered and the processors start to lag. However, using the haali renderer, which looks better to my eyes then vmr9, I can no longer tweak the ffdshow filters in real time, there is quite a delay between the time you move a fader inside ffdshow (picture properties, gamma, saturation etc) and the time the clip responds. So I wonder if you have any suggestions?

Keep up the good work.

[mike_lee]

- - - Dp - - -

[Haali]

Haali, I'm like a big fan - haha, to me you are a rock star - I don't know why I got that impression :-)
Anyway, I am trying to use my new PC with g a eforce 7900 GTX card. I like ffdshow because I can change image settings (using ffpresets) on the fly. I have to moniter and review a lot of video clips at once. At around 6 clips the screen starts to get cluttered and the processors start to lag. However, using the haali renderer, which looks better to my eyes then vmr9, I can no longer tweak the ffdshow filters in real time, there is quite a delay between the time you move a fader inside ffdshow (picture properties, gamma, saturation etc) and the time the clip responds. So I wonder if you have any suggestions?

Decrease memory buffer size in renderer options.

[B.F.]

I don't want to do that, because the renderer needs to display frames at the requested timestamps. If it had a low priority, then decoding could interfere with that and increase jitter.
Then how about make priority control like in VDub? :)

[Haali]

Then how about make priority control like in VDub? :)
I don't understand why would anyone deliberately set up a system in such a way that frames can be displayed at a wrong time. It's essential for correct presentation that rendering is not delayed by other activity, especially since my renderer does this on a separate thread, and not on the decoder thread, where the decoder is suspended while waiting for presentation time. It is not some background encoding after all.

[B.F.]

Just for test. :)
And I don't think too high priority is a good idea.

P.S.
Maybe you separate render progect from the splitter?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Any news on the "player freezes for 15 sec on the start of playback" bug ???

[Haali]

Not yet. So far I couldn't reproduce this. If someone relibaly hits the bug, please contact me via pm.

[mike_lee]

haali renderer has become my default. video looks better and since I have a large (too large) monitor the resizing superiority really made a huge difference.

Good job man.

[Esc]

MPC 6.4.9.0 + Haali Renderer = black screen
Any video codec (tested with Divx and AVC)
NVidia GeForce FX 5200
WinXP SP2
Any ideas why?

[Egh]

MPC 6.4.9.0 + Haali Renderer = black screen
Any video codec (tested with Divx and AVC)
NVidia GeForce FX 5200
WinXP SP2
Any ideas why?

Sure you forced RGB32 output, comrade? Besides, FX5200 is way too low to really use Haali renderer. I have FX5500 here, and +15-20% OCed. Still software resizer works faster.

[Sirber]

haali renderer has become my default. video looks better and since I have a large (too large) monitor the resizing superiority really made a huge difference.

Good job man.is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?

[videomixer9]

btw. is that some kind of making fun of it or why do you use WMR instead of VMR all the time? :P

[Esc]

Sure you forced RGB32 output, comrade? Besides, FX5200 is way too low to really use Haali renderer. I have FX5500 here, and +15-20% OCed. Still software resizer works faster.
Da, comrade. If by "force" you mean go to ffdshow and uncheck in "Supported Output Colorspaces" everything but RGB32 then yes, I did that. Didn't help. And I doubt it would since my avc content is played not with ffdshow but has the same problem.
Also I forgot to mention that Haali Splitter was downloaded and installed today. Twice. So it's the latest version for sure (1.6.162.22).
And I've got another comrade who has downloaded and installed CCCP (unlike me who always install things individually). He has the same problem. That's how it actually started. He asked me if Haali Renderer was working with me.
I'll try it home on my 6600GT.

[foxyshadis]

is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?
Haali's is a drop-in replacement for VMR9. You can enable the same shaders as you can with VMR9 renderless.

[Sirber]

btw. is that some kind of making fun of it or why do you use WMR instead of VMR all the time? :Ptypo, nothing more.

[Sirber]

wierd...

Haali (-1) is sharper than VMR9 + Bicubic (-1)...

[LoRd_MuldeR]

is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?

Well, for my eyes VMR9 Renderless Bicubic-Mode and Haali Renderer look pretty much the same. Can't say which one looks better. The Problem with VMR9 is, that it needs software YUV->RGB convertion while Haali Renderer displays YUV correctly here. But the problem with Haali is, that it feezes my system for aboz 15 secs each time I open a new video. And since I've tons of 4:00 minute vids on my HDD, that's really nasty. Hope it get's fixed one day...

[Egh]

Well, for my eyes VMR9 Renderless Bicubic-Mode and Haali Renderer look pretty much the same. Can't say which one looks better.

Well if you read all messages here you know that both those things were actually done by Haali :)

And note that VMR9 bicubic resize scripting is inferior to Haali renderer in terms of performance, due to constraint to use single-pass only in MPC at the time that script was done. I believe Gabest implemented support for 2-pass modes in MPC since then, but I rekon the script remains same :P

[Sirber]

I already read all messages ;)

but with the delay haali renderer is not useable :(

[Esc]

I agree that such a long open delay makes it quite less attractive.

[breez]

Is a newer renderer than the one bundled with Haali Splitter 1.6.162.22 (07/05/2006) available?