Haali Renderer

[MetalPhreak]

This is pretty neat - I have a feeling this going to become my default renderer.
Ok here's a question - in the configuration for the renderer there's an option for buffer size and something called A, what is this A? (sorry if I missed this)
I also noticed the frame rate is extremely erratic - on 25fps video it's jumps between 23 and 30 fps.

[Egh]

Ok here's a question - in the configuration for the renderer there's an option for buffer size and something called A, what is this A? (sorry if I missed this)
I also noticed the frame rate is extremely erratic - on 25fps video it's jumps between 23 and 30 fps.

A is supposed to be parameter which affects shaprening effect. I don't know the relation between this param and standard avc style b&c params though. Need to ask Haali about it :)

[B.F.]

A is supposed to be parameter which affects shaprening effect. I don't know the relation between this param and standard avc style b&c params though. Need to ask Haali about it :)
The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp

[Egh]

The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp

What about values below 0.6?

Edit:

wheee, I found out the relation :approved:

c = -A; b + 2*c = 1;

Where A = Haali parameter; b, c = AVS parameters for bicubic sharpening.

[Rash]

Egh, just a suggestion. Include the Haali Splitter download link on your first post. ;)

[OCedHrt]

I also have a major wait time when loading videos. 10 seconds sounds about right.

Radeon 9800 Pro
2 Ghz Athlon XP-M
1 GB RAM

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.

[chros]

The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp
From the manual of Virtualdub:
"Precise bicubic (cubic spline decimation filter):
Compute the desired pixel by applying a triangle filter to the closest N source pixels, where N=16 for enlarging and N>16 for shrinking. This mode is the same as bicubic for enlargement but gives better results when shrinking. Three different modes are given, A=-1.0, A=-.75, and A=-0.6. These vary the "stiffness" of the cubic spline and control the peaking of the filter, which perceptually alters the sharpness of the output. A=-0.6 gives the most consistent results mathematically, but the other modes may produce more visually pleasing results."

- So, when you're enlarging video, these A values doesn't take account, just when you're shrinking.
- and mathematically isn't the A=-0.6 is the sharpest ?

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.
Confirmed with MPC v6.4.8.9 :(

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.

Hmmm...

For me it always takes 15 seconds with Haali Renderer enabled, no matter how I open the clip
(latest celtic build)

[Egh]

Hmmm...

For me it always takes 15 seconds with Haali Renderer enabled, no matter how I open the clip
(latest celtic build)

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.

[Seb.26]

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.
Ok:
> A64 3200+
> Ge6150
> nForceWare 84.12 (beta)
> MPC+CoreAVC+Reclock

About 10s for displaying 1st frame of video ( I will try if wait time depend on buffer size ... Does the render wait the buffer is full before start playback ? )

Is that is enought ?
( In case "No" : please ask what you want ;) )

[LoRd_MuldeR]

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.

I use latest MPC build from Celtic Druid.
OS is WinXP (32-Bit) with SP-1.
Card is ATI Radeon 9800 Pro with Radeon Omega Drivers 3.8.221 (Catalyst 6.2)
And I use DirectX 9.0c (Feb 2006 release)

Again: Takes at least 10-15 seconds to start playback.
Computer is frozen during this time...

[OCedHrt]

At first I thought it might just be the ATI cards, but it seems some GeForce users are having problems too.

[flanger216]

Using Zoomplayer with the latest FFDshow on my Radeon x1300, there's a roughly 5-10 delay, the length of which seems to be directly proportional to how much video cache I use.

Also, very rarely I come upon a video that doesn't seek properly when I use the Haali renderer, but works fine when I use VMR9.

[Scoty]

i use the latest MPC with Haalis Reenderer and the NVidia PureVideo Decoder but how can i set Force RGB32 output ? in the new MPC i can not find the settings.

[Egh]

i use the latest MPC with Haalis Reenderer and the NVidia PureVideo Decoder but how can i set Force RGB32 output ? in the new MPC i can not find the settings.

RGB32 is enforced in the decoder. So e.g. if you use ffdshow you can disable output in YV12, YUY2 etc, apart from RGB32.

[Egh]

Also, very rarely I come upon a video that doesn't seek properly when I use the Haali renderer, but works fine when I use VMR9.

If that problem is reproducible (would like to know parameters of the file at least, i.e. which tracks it has, which container etc) can you upload some fragment of that to lets' say rapidshare?

[Scoty]

i found a other problem with Haalis Reenderer. i dont have picture on my TV. with the standart output i have a TV picture but with Haalis Reenderer i see only black screen on my TV (SVHS). what can i do ?

[flanger216]

If that problem is reproducible (would like to know parameters of the file at least, i.e. which tracks it has, which container etc) can you upload some fragment of that to lets' say rapidshare?

Yeah, sorry for the vague bug-report. The files were all MP42 encodes, and I remember there being some sort of problem with their indexes. Unfortunately, I've since deleted them and don't recall where I got them. Again, definitely not a big bug and probably an issue with the video-files themselves.

[Egh]

i found a other problem with Haalis Reenderer. i dont have picture on my TV. with the standart output i have a TV picture but with Haalis Reenderer i see only black screen on my TV (SVHS). what can i do ?

What kind of standard output do you use? Overlay or VMR9?

[Scoty]

What kind of standard output do you use? Overlay or VMR9?

overlay.

[Egh]

overlay.

Try if same effect is with VMR9 btw. Of course Haali renderer doesn't use overlay

[Scoty]

Try if same effect is with VMR9 btw. Of course Haali renderer doesn't use overlay

will work tv out only with overlay over svhs ?

[Egh]

will work tv out only with overlay over svhs ?

That's for you to research. In context of this thread you need to make sure that bugs are caused specifically by Haali renderer, not due to, like in this case, not using overlay.

[KoD]

Finally I can post on this board. The 5 days delay set between registering and being able to post sure is annoying.

1. People having issues with high CPU load when using YV12 or YUY2 output colorsapce from their decoder (ffdshow by default options, divx/xvid by default, too). It seems that this causes the driver to work overtime (at least on ATi cards from the 9xxx series and systems with single core CPU) and that's why you get a very high CPU usage. Force RGB32 output in your video decoder (in ffdshow, uncheck YV12 and YUY2 modes, in divx I believe there is no way to force RGB output, in XviD there's an option to force the output colorspace to RGB32). This will make your video playback run at normal (read proper) CPU usage again.

2. "I don't use YV12/YUY2 in my video driver but I can still use Haali's renderer although it's supposed to only work with YUY2 or RGB input. And this works on some files but it doesn't on others !". Most likely you were not aware of all the filters in the video rendering chain. Probably you have files with subtitles which make vsfilter to be loaded, and guess what happens... vsfilter performs the colorspace conversion from YV12 to YUY2 ! Check this by enabling the OSD page in vsfilter options and look at the input colorspace and the output one. This also means that CPU usage will be higher on certain video cards/CPU combinations, because of the problem mentioned at point 1). Feeding the renderer with YUY2 (from vsfilter output) -> high CPU usage. So, it's better to force RGB output in the video decoder.

3. High load times when opening a video file. This happens to me too, P4 2.4GHz, Ati Radeon 9700 Pro card, latest Dx, WMP10 on clean WinXp SP2 install.

4. One real problem I have noticed is tearing. This happens on all files but it's easy to spot only on those with high motion or flickering image. Haali said he'd be working on this (that was a few weeks ago).

5. Haali's renderer does not use Overlay ! It uses YUY2/RGB texture/render surfaces, just like VMR9 does ! So, of course using Overlay output will give nothing on TV-out ! And having TV-out output would probably require some other things to be implemented, things that were not really a proirity for a test release...

[Egh]

1.

2.

5.

As for 1. and 5. I pretty much told the same already :)

As for number 2, it could be a good explanation. I myself don't use VSFilter though :P

"And having TV-out output would probably require some other things to be implemented, things that were not really a proirity for a test release..." First, I think you still can get TV out if you change drivers configuration settings, and second, the current release of Haali renderer is no way a test release :) Test releases were prior 25th of Feb, and were not available to public.

[KoD]

It does look as a test release though because of the warning that's posted on Haali's website.

Regarding number 2: play the file in MPC and use graphedit to connect to the filter graph. Is there anything between the output of the video decoder and the input in Haali's renderer ?
(because magic doesn't happen ^^ )

[Egh]

It does look as a test release though because of the warning that's posted on Haali's website.

where is it exactly?


Regarding number 2: play the file in MPC and use graphedit to connect to the filter graph. Is there anything between the output of the video decoder and the input in Haali's renderer ?
(because magic doesn't happen ^^ )

And what should be there? :confused:

[KoD]

I'm sorry. Looking again on the webpage I see no warning about potential problems with the splitter. I could have sworn, though... ^^;

As for the other problem, there should be something that performs the color space conversion. Except the case that this color psace conversion is performed by the video driver (unlikely), there must be something that does it.

[futurex]

i dont know if this has been answered already, but the delay when using haali renderer looks like its depends on the decoder. try forcing dscaler for dvd/mpeg2, when compared to intervideo for example.

on my system, using dscaler it loads instantly, while intervideo takes around 10-15 seconds

[breez]

i dont know if this has been answered already, but the delay when using haali renderer looks like its depends on the decoder. try forcing dscaler for dvd/mpeg2, when compared to intervideo for example.

on my system, using dscaler it loads instantly, while intervideo takes around 10-15 seconds

Make sure Haali renderer is on the filters list when you use Dscaler decoder. Dscaler probably outputs YV12 by default (it is switchable to YUY2 through the decoder's settings and no "auto" setting available) and that just won't work with the current Haali renderer and thus another renderer will be used (VMR7 seems to be the fallback renderer of choice in MPC).

[Egh]

(VMR7 seems to be the fallback renderer of choice in MPC).

i think it's more old preVMR renderer even.

[futurex]

its definitely using haali renderer :)

i checked the "pin info" with haali, it says input is YUY2, then i checked dscaler's "pin info" and it says YV12 for "video out"

does that mean its not working correctly/efficiently? what should it be? :)

btw im using dscaler 5.0.0.8, elecard demuxer and ffdshow raw video (i havent set ffdshow to do any processing, it just passing the video through). im using a dvb mpeg2 stream

[flanger216]

Been playing around with this some more, and I've noticed I get little micro-tears in the video, similar to what VMR9 looks like when v-sync isn't working properly. For what it's worth, v-sync is forced-on in the drivers on my Radeon x1300.

[breez]

its definitely using haali renderer :)

i checked the "pin info" with haali, it says input is YUY2, then i checked dscaler's "pin info" and it says YV12 for "video out"

does that mean its not working correctly/efficiently? what should it be? :)

btw im using dscaler 5.0.0.8, elecard demuxer and ffdshow raw video (i havent set ffdshow to do any processing, it just passing the video through). im using a dvb mpeg2 stream

Ffdshow is doing the YV12 to YUY2 conversion for you, but it doesn't explain why there is no slowdown at beginning with dscaler...

[KoD]

Been playing around with this some more, and I've noticed I get little micro-tears in the video, similar to what VMR9 looks like when v-sync isn't working properly. For what it's worth, v-sync is forced-on in the drivers on my Radeon x1300.

That's the tearing I was speaking about. I hope the next release will have it fixed.

[KoD]

Another issue: when playing something, if I pause the file the video still goes on for a little. Then I do a skip back for 5 seconds in MPC using the keyboard, I unpause playback but now the video is no longer synched to the audio. If I pause it again, skip back and unpause, video and audio are synched again.

[futurex]

check your cpu load when playing the file. i find it does that on hi def video, certainly not limited to haali's renderer

[flanger216]

Any plans on adding in some pixel-shader - based deinterlacing? That would be, well, sweet.

[Egh]

Any plans on adding in some pixel-shader - based deinterlacing? That would be, well, sweet.

In theory can be done, to my knowledge. I wonder if haali himself wishes to do that, though.

[flanger216]

In theory can be done, to my knowledge. I wonder if haali himself wishes to do that, though.

Yeah, I just assumed it could be done in a way similar to MPC's pixel-shader deinterlacer. Even a simple blend capability would be useful, IMO.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

The new version (7/05/2006) unfortunately still freezes my system for about 15 seconds each time I start playback. Is there anything I can do about that?

My specs: WinXP, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, AthlonXP 2800+

[celtic_druid]

Working ok here now.
Win2k SP4, ATI X1600 XT*1, X2 4200+

1-2sec delay.

My previous system I also had an excessive delay. Same video card as you to.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Working ok here now.
Win2k SP4, ATI X1600 XT*1, X2 4200+

1-2sec delay.

My previous system I also had an excessive delay. Same video card as you to.

So it seems to be an incompatibility between Haali Renderer and Radeon 9800 Pro...
Problem is, that it's not only a delay. It freezes the whole system.
For example if I have web-radio playing in background and start some video in MPC with Haali Renderer enabled, the radio will also freeze.

Too sad, because Haali Renderer gives good results...

[celtic_druid]

Don't think it frooze the system here. I could probably put together another PC with the 9800pro in it.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Don't think it frooze the system here. I could probably put together another PC with the 9800pro in it.

Maybe I should say that I use WinXP with SP-2, DirectX 9.0 (April 2006 release) and latest Omega Drivers.

EDIT: Updated to official Catalyst 6.4. No change...

[Haali]

Could it be an incompatibility with some version of ati video drivers? Haali Renderer allocates all available VRAM at start of playback if you don't limit it in the options, so it could cause some strange effects.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Could it be an incompatibility with some version of ati video drivers? Haali Renderer allocates all available VRAM at start of playback if you don't limit it in the options, so it could cause some strange effects.

I already have lastest official ATI drivers (Catalyst 6.4)
And I also tried latest Omega Drivers (based on Catalyst 6.3)
Problem unchanged with both!

I also limited VRAM to 16MB in the Haali Renderer settings (altough the 128MB of my Radeon 9800 Pro should be enough, eh?), but still no change.

So any suggestions, what can I do ???

[Haali]

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

Well, it happens to me and I have only my ATI 9800 Pro.

If it happends on other 9800 Pro's this card might be the problem.
But I think it's also possible, that my specific PC is the problem.

No idea so far. Are other 9800 Pro user's here?

[Palikrovol]

I have a AIW 9800SE with latest Omega drivers (6.3) and i think it's ok.
It gets 8 seconds to play the movie, but is played after all.

CPU increases very much when resize to full screen.