Nero/Ateme HP AVC Encoder Beta : Call For Testers

[IgorC]

I noticed that on others forums some developers of Moonlight(especially one guy with nickname Mutek) is saying to newbies that Ateme High Profile is just updated version of Main Profile and there is no difference of quality. Also saying that difference between Moonlight and Ateme is not big and provided bad sugguestions about settings of Ateme H.264
Mutek, It's not fair method of competition between differents groups of developers.
If you want to do some statements , please do it here. Face to face.

[bond]

igorc: link?

[IgorC]

but it´s in russian
http://forum.mediatory.ru/viewtopic.php?t=2615&start=600
http://forum.ixbt.com/?id=29 - here is compalin about nero don´t suport interlace and that is why Mutek wont to test it at all . But everybody can use deinterlace via avisinth
There are others forums too. But I think it will be enough for the first time

All mesage of Mutek from mediatory forum http://forum.mediatory.ru/search.php?search_author=MuTeK. You can find his ´best ´settings for Ateme h.264

[Sharktooth]

Well... anything in english?

Translation: http://babelfish.av.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.mediatory.ru%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearch_author%3DMuTeK&lp=ru_en

[IgorC]

No , that´s why it hard to figure out and he thought that nobody wouldn´t say nothing on englisg lang .internationals forums.

[Sharktooth]

well the babelfish translation is quite clear (link in my previous post).

[Sirber]

Results of the search: 61
List of forums the observatory: Meeting

:confused:

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by IgorC
I noticed that on others forums some developers of Moonlight(especially one guy with nickname Mutek)...
Who are the other Moonlight devs that you are talking about?
Originally posted by IgorC
...is saying to newbies that Ateme High Profile is just updated version of Main Profile and there is no difference of quality.
He didn't say that. He said that he thinks the quality improvements in Ateme are the cause of encoder optimizations and not the cause of HP features (except 8x8 transform and matrixes).
Originally posted by IgorC
http://forum.ixbt.com/?id=29 - here is compalin about nero don?t suport interlace and that is why Mutek wont to test it at all .
If I remember correctly, he was testing interlaced encoders using interlaced video. Public version of Nero/Ateme encoder doesn't support it.
Originally posted by IgorC
Also saying that difference between Moonlight and Ateme is not big and provided bad sugguestions about settings of Ateme H.264
I didn't find it. Can you link this one?
Originally posted by IgorC
All mesage of Mutek from mediatory forum http://forum.mediatory.ru/search.ph...h_author=MuTeK. You can find his 'best 'settings for Ateme h.264
Didn't find it too.

What are you trying to do, IgorC?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[IgorC]

Pogo Stick, you're trying to protect him. That's ok. But as I said it's hard to figure out sence of his posts. It's not first time I heard him talking about how Moonlight is good and fast while the others codecs are nothing comparing to it.
He always finds the reason to say about it.
Why he didn't post here? Did you see his suggestions and options for H.264? Read carefully his posts wich are full of propaganda and provocation.

Now he´ll think twice before to post something.

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by IgorC
Pogo Stick, you're trying to protect him.
No. Why should I protect him? I don't know him much.
Originally posted by IgorC
It's not first time I heard him talking about how Moonlight is good and fast while the others codecs are nothing comparing to it.
He always finds the reason to say about it.
...
Read carefully his posts wich are full of propaganda and provocation.
All I see is that you don't like Moonlight and Mutek. And I don't think it's good reason for accusing "groups of developers" in dishonesty.
Originally posted by IgorC
Did you see his suggestions and options for H.264?
No. Link it.

[IgorC]

http://forum.mediatory.ru/search.php?search_id=1516663295&start=20
2bfrmaes, 2ref, MV 64 - are the 'optimal' setings for him. Did You read it?
He complained as always that Nero H.264 isn't real time codec. What codec do you supposed good for him? Yes, moonlight it has a real time 1 pass. And the people who don´t understand much beleived him.
For Mutek Nero don´t suport interlace neither real time encoding. What else?

[ChronoCross]

I think you both need to calm down. Trying to fight over which codec is better will not solve anything. let the people using each figure it out for themselves.

I'm sure that each encoder has it's adv and dis and just because a single person spent his time bashing nero/ateme does not mean all the dev's of moonlight feel the same. If you disagree with him that's fine IgorC but there's no reason to bring it into a public fight.

I personally really do believe in the ateme advances. People are welcome to disagree with me.

Anyway everyone have a nice day.

[kaabob]

Yea, i still can't get the video to play, even when i redownloaded NVE #2 from Nero's UPdates page. This is the error window i got when i tried to open the file.

http://www1.pacific.edu/~j-chan3/images/nero.gif

Funny, when open up ReCode, I'm missing the options to encode in H.264 too

http://www1.pacific.edu/~j-chan3/images/nero2.gif

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by IgorC
http://forum.mediatory.ru/search.php?search_id=1516663295&start=20
Wrong link?
Originally posted by ChronoCross
I think you both need to calm down. Trying to fight over which codec is better will not solve anything. let the people using each figure it out for themselves.
I'm pretty calm and not trying to fight. I just can't find parts where Mutek bashing Nero/Ateme in those links. But I see IgorC saying very offensive things about Moonlight there. I am not connected with them and not using their products, but what IgorC is doing doesn't seem right to me.
Originally posted by ChronoCross
People are welcome to disagree with me.
Not me. :)

[JohnV]

I don't know what has happened at the russian forums, but in my opinion it would be the best if devs posting to russian/non-english sites commented mostly only their own products to avoid any missunderstandings. On international forums like Doom9, countering claims is not a problem, but it's a problem in russian forums for non-russian speakers..

But anyway, this is going off-topic..

@kaabob: if you had OEM version installed, uninstall and clear it completely from registry, then install the web-demo, or buy it..

[G-Slide]

bobololo> obviously i guess AVC HP can't be faster than AVC MP, but i would like to know if it's very longer ?...

[babayaga]

Originally posted by G-Slide
bobololo> obviously i guess AVC HP can't be faster than AVC MP, but i would like to know if it's very longer ?...

Just to give a hint, the same Reloaded trailer encoded with the same settings on the same Athlon 2800+ PC :
- Main profile in Nero version (end of last year) : 6.8fps
- High profile (upcoming beta) : 7.0fps

[G-Slide]

thanks ! :)

[Sirber]

Originally posted by babayaga
Just to give a hint, the same Reloaded trailer encoded with the same settings on the same Athlon 2800+ PC :
- Main profile in Nero version (end of last year) : 6.8fps
- High profile (upcoming beta) : 7.0fps

Beta already started?

[bond]

Originally posted by babayaga
Just to give a hint, the same Reloaded trailer encoded with the same settings on the same Athlon 2800+ PC :
- Main profile in Nero version (end of last year) : 6.8fps
- High profile (upcoming beta) : 7.0fps hm doesnt this mean that hp gets encoded faster than mp?

[Manao]

bond : either that or the encoder is faster than latest released beta... Somehow ( :rolleyes: ), i think the second is more credible, because high profile is inherently more complicated ( new intra modes (8x8), and virtually twice as much possibilities for coding a macroblock ( dct 4x4 or 8x8 ))

Sirber : babayaga is an Ateme's dev, so he's got access to the beta

G-slide : with the same encoding speed, high profile should give a higher quality than main profile ( for those who played with the latest beta, it roughly means that quality-good-HP is better than quality-best-MP ( psnr wise ), and that speed is roughly the same - with the same encoder )

[G-Slide]

okay thx for informations...;) in fact, i use verytime best quality... my 3400+ gives me some abilities :p

[LigH]

Originally posted by bobololo
They can be played by latest version of Nero Showtime !
Well - probably; the latest Mplayer (from celtic-druid) has quite some fun with it! :D
MPlayer dev-CVS-050518-19:25-3.4.2 (C) 2000-2005 MPlayer Team
CPU: Advanced Micro Devices Duron Spitfire (Family: 6, Stepping: 1)
Detected cache-line size is 64 bytes
CPUflags: MMX: 1 MMX2: 1 3DNow: 1 3DNow2: 1 SSE: 0 SSE2: 0
Compiled for x86 CPU with extensions: MMX MMX2 3DNow 3DNowEx


85 audio & 199 video codecs
Playing hp2-ateme-450k-hp.mp4.
ISO: Unknown File Type Major Brand: avc1
QuickTime/MOV file format detected.
--------------
Warning! pts=1 length=0
MOV track #0: 1 chunks, 0 samples
Generic track - not completely understood! (id: 0)
--------------
Warning! pts=1 length=0
MOV track #1: 1 chunks, 0 samples
Generic track - not completely understood! (id: 1)
--------------
Warning! pts=3076000 length=0
MOV track #2: 62 chunks, 3076 samples
MOV: AVC decoder configuration record atom (48)!
MOV: Found unknown movie atom btrt (20)!
Image size: 720 x 304 (24 bpp)
Display size: 720 x 304
Fourcc: avc1 Codec: 'AVC Coding'
--------------
MOV: longest streams: A: #-1 (0 samples) V: #2 (3076 samples)
VIDEO: [avc1] 720x304 24bpp 25.000 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s)
==========================================================================
Opening video decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg's libavcodec codec family
Selected video codec: [ffh264] vfm:ffmpeg (FFmpeg H.264)
==========================================================================
Audio: no sound
Starting playback...
[h264 @ 00A01FC8]QP -14 out of range
Error while decoding frame!
[h264 @ 00A01FC8]error while decoding MB 0 0
[h264 @ 00A01FC8]concealing 80 DC, 80 AC, 80 MV errors
VDec: vo config request - 16 x 1280 (preferred csp: Planar YV12)
VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is undefined - no prescaling applied.
VO: [directx] 16x1280 => 16x1280 Planar YV12
V: 0.0 2/ 2 ??% ??% ??,?% 0 0

MPlayer interrupted by signal 11 in module: decode_video
- MPlayer crashed by bad usage of CPU/FPU/RAM.
Recompile MPlayer with --enable-debug and make a 'gdb' backtrace and
disassembly. Details in DOCS/HTML/en/bugreports_what.html#bugreports_crash.
- MPlayer crashed. This shouldn't happen.
It can be a bug in the MPlayer code _or_ in your drivers _or_ in your
gcc version. If you think it's MPlayer's fault, please read
DOCS/HTML/en/bugreports.html and follow the instructions there. We can't and
won't help unless you provide this information when reporting a possible bug.
I somehow wonder what you changed in the bitstream to make it "incompatible" ;) - personally, I don't like Nero ShowTime too much. But I'd guess that the DS decoder filters will do the main job, and they shall work being called from any DS media player. :rolleyes:

[bobololo]

Originally posted by LigH
Well - probably; the latest Mplayer (from celtic-druid) has quite some fun with it! :D

[...]

I somehow wonder what you changed in the bitstream to make it "incompatible" ;) - personally, I don't like Nero ShowTime too much. But I'd guess that the DS decoder filters will do the main job, and they shall work being called from any DS media player. :rolleyes:

We didn't change the bitstream to make it incompatible, the issue is that lavc (used by mplayer) doesn't support high profile stream. It's just like asking a mpeg-4 SP decoder to decoder bframes: it can't handle it.

[LigH]

Please don't take that little joke too serious, bobo! ;)

High Profile... :o sorry, must have missed this detail. That makes it clear.

[SeeMoreDigital]

VLC player can't play the two encodes bobololo provided either ;)


Cheers

[LigH]

That's quite clear: If I remember correctly, both Mplayer and VLC use routines of the same library - libavcodec. As long as libavcodec does not support "High Profile", no application using it does.

[bobololo]

Originally posted by LigH
Please don't take that little joke too serious, bobo! ;)

High Profile... :o sorry, must have missed this detail. That makes it clear.

No problem, however I prefered to clarify this since clueless people could mis-understand it and spread erroneous claims ;)

[Leo 69]

What will be the difference in quality if I use 8x8 transform instead of 4x4 one for low bitrate encodes (less than 1000kbps) ?

[Sharktooth]

Well... i would prefer a 4x4 transform for very low bitrates coz you're not going to keep fine details...

[berrinam]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why does the 4x4 transform handle low bitrates better than the 8x8 transform? Isn't that mainly a property of the quantizer used?

[Sirber]

4x4 squares are mostly plain color squares which gets blured by the inloop filter. Pretty effective in low biterate.

[bobololo]

I've posted a list (http://pub.ateme.net/~tsouthiv/volunteers.txt) of current registered volunteers. Please check I've forgotten nobody (PM me if I did). The registration period still continues until the end of the week.

ps: I've updated my initial post with this new link.

[Sirber]

Cool! :D

[berrinam]

Thanks for the explanation.

[subliminal]

i think that you forgoted me :( to include in the volunteers list

[Sagittaire]

Possible to make your new beta encavc with main profil (with last improuvements) and high profil ... ???

[bobololo]

As the number of signups for the beta is slowing down, I'm anticipating the second stage (testers selection) a little bit. The registration is still open until 05/27 though.

I've published a preliminary list of trustworthy testers and the remaining registered volunteers here (http://pub.ateme.net/~tsouthiv/beta2.txt). You can start voting for you favorite candidates right now by sending me a PM with your choice. I'll try to update as often as possible.

The trustworhty testers were choosen because they actively participated to the previous beta (by any means: forum, irc, etc.).

[acidsex]

Im not being picky but how am I a new tester when I was part of the last beta test? Wouldnt that make me part of the trustworthy camp? Afterall, Im not Russian and did not leak any beta and contributed all that I could. :) Hopefully this is an oversight.

[Sergei_Esenin]

While I don't post here often (except in the analogue capture forum from time to time), hopefully someone on the Trusted Testers list knows me from my daily AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?userid=7425165) posts or occasional Ars threads. I'm not a Russian leaker (my nic is a Russian poet, but I'm an American home theater enthusiast), and my nic looks lonely without any votes beside it. ;)

[azsd]

hi,bobololo,

stupid question
Is there the YUV 4:4:4 pixel formats avalible in this beta?

[bobololo]

Originally posted by azsd
hi,bobololo,

stupid question
Is there the YUV 4:4:4 pixel formats avalible in this beta?

No we only support 4:2:0 color space.

[bobololo]

Originally posted by acidsex
Im not being picky but how am I a new tester when I was part of the last beta test? Wouldnt that make me part of the trustworthy camp? Afterall, Im not Russian and did not leak any beta and contributed all that I could. :) Hopefully this is an oversight.

As I explained on my previous post, I pre-selected active testers from the lastest round. I've read again the 2 dedicated threads and I only noticed the 3 posts from you:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=539698#post539698
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=539703#post539703
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=542218#post542218

Correct me if I'm wrong, but considering those posts, it appears very hard for me to have the feeling you were very active and provided some key feedback. I may have missed something, in such case just point me to it and I'll correct my mistake.

BTW my motivation for keeping only active testers is because during the latest beta, a significant number of testers who took part to the test returned very few or even no reactions. Therefore, I don't see why we should take the risk to send highly confidential material to people who will just run the encoder once by curiosity.

I hope you can understand my position. Anyway, I don't see why you're so worried, they are many voters (more than what is needed to get all volunteers in). So if you're a good person, you will certainly receive the 2 required votes.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi bobololo,

Although I was not very active in the previous test. Am I trusted enough to nominate new volunteers?


Cheers

[ChronoCross]

Only one more to go....

is the CLI going to output to raw frames or to mp4? also is the CLI including audio muxing and subtitle muxing?

Thanks.

[acidsex]

Originally posted by bobololo

I hope you can understand my position. Anyway, I don't see why you're so worried, they are many voters (more than what is needed to get all volunteers in). So if you're a good person, you will certainly receive the 2 required votes.

I understand your position. My worries? I have no votes currently and dont see me getting two by tomorrow. But I guess I end up missing this beta this time around unless a couple of people wish to sponsor a teacher. :)

[bobololo]

Originally posted by acidsex
I understand your position. My worries? I have no votes currently and dont see me getting two by tomorrow. But I guess I end up missing this beta this time around unless a couple of people wish to sponsor a teacher. :)

There is one week to go before the end of the votes (check at the schedule). You have still enough time to fire up your campaign ;)

[acidsex]

I dont have time to fire up a campaign. I am too busy teaching public school during the day and college courses at night. Once school lets out for the summer, I will have nothing to do for a month or two.

Ok, Ill make a pitch. If anyone would like to sponsor a high school teacher that wants to use H.264 HP/lossless for archival and delviery of the school news show, please sposnor me.

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by Sergei_Esenin
I'm not a Russian leaker...
Originally posted by acidsex
Im not Russian and did not leak any beta...
It sounds like 'I am not a thief and I did not steal your car...' :(

Think about it.

[Sirber]

What if the leaker was russian? Does it changes something? No.