V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter VST Plugin Suite

[ursamtl]

V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter VST Plugin Suite
http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI.jpg
V.I is a 2-input, 6-output VST plugin that converts a two-channel stereo input to a six channel output in 5.1 format.

Also included: fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR are 2-in/2-out VST plugins duplicating V.I’s effects in channel pairs in VST hosts that do not support 2-in/6-out multichannel plugins: fLfR duplicates V.I’s front channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/fLfR.jpg CLFE duplicates V.I’s Center and LFE channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/CLFE.jpg sLsR duplicates V.I’s rear surround channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/sLsR.jpg
(Note: the plugin “II” that was distributed with Beta versions of V.I has been replaced by sLsR.)

Contents of This Guide
Features
New Plogue Bidule Layouts
Required Software
Using V.I with Plogue Bidule
Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX Or Nuendo
Using V.I with audio editing programs or players
V.I Web Site
Feedback

Features
These plugins server as a follow-up to the original V.I bidule layout and incorporates several improvements. Here are some of its notable features.
Width correction helps compensate for source files that were mixed too narrow or too wide.
Independent controls for adding ambience to the front or rear soundstage.
Pass-through of original left and right signals ensures accurate reproduction of original stereo imaging (when not in Movie Mode).
Companion fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR VST plugins duplicate V.I’s effects in channel pairs in VST hosts that do not support multichannel plugins such as V.I (Guide coming VERY soon)
Movie Mode switch redirects some dialog frequencies from front left and right channels to the center channel to enhance dialog while still maintaining a good stereo soundstage.
On/off control for A-B monitoring of effect.
Switchable LFE channel.
V.I has been tested in various multichannel hosts such as Plogue Bidule, Audiomulch, Sound Forge 9, and Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo versions 2.x or later. The 2-in/2-out fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR plugins have been tested successfully in Adobe Audition 1.5-2.0, Steinberg Wavelab 5.0, Kristal Audio Engine, Cakewalk Sonar 5 Producer Edition, and Sony Vegas 6.V.I is a VST plugin designed to convert a stereo input to a 5.1 audio output. You can then encode this data into a surround sound file using appropriate software.

V.I cannot go back into a recording studio and separate the original multitrack audio into separate channels, but it can extract ambience information embedded in the stereo audio and redistribute it among 5.1 channels for playback on home theater equipment capable of decoding surround sound information. Recording engineers, audio engineers and enthusiasts have been doing this kind of thing for years in one way or another. V.I simply combines some of their techniques in one VST plugin.

Yeah but isn't V.I just "double stereo" with some filters
No, V.I is not just "double stereo." I'll get technical for a minute. To ensure a stable soundstage, V.I starts with the original front left and right channels from the stereo source file, but then it builds on them with a combination of crosstalk cancellation and second-order Ambisonics for the front ambience. Try the slider called Front Ambience and see how you like it. Even without any rear channels, the sound on some recordings seems to jump out of the speakers and take on a life of its own! For the rear surrounds, V.I extracts ambience using a modified second-order Ambisonic approach. In fact, inside the V.I plugin, there are over 300 software connections similar to the kinds you would find in modular programs such as Plogue Bidule, Audiomulch, etc. This may sound complicated but the result is a smooth, natural surround effect.

As for filters, there are only two: one for the LFE if you choose to use it, another for Movie Mode, again if you choose to use it. Any other sound that seems to be filtered is just the natural result of proven Ambisonic techniques.

If you have a computer with a 5.1 soundcard and speakers, try listening to music going through V.I and then switch it off and on a couple of times using the button on the plugin. Whenever you turn V.I on, notice how the instruments and sounds seem to remain in basically the same place but suddenly become three-dimensional as if you were standing in the room with them.

Required Software
You can download V.I VST Suite here (3.8MB):

V.I Suite Installer ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.exe) or V.I Suite Zip file ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.zip)

IMPORTANT#1: This installer automatically checks your PC's registry for the current shared VST Plugins folder and defaults to installing the plugin in this folder. Be sure the VST host program you use (Plogue Bidule, Cubase, Nuendo, etc.) is set to read this directory. If your system does not have a default VST directory, the V.I Suite installer will place the files in a subdirectory of your Program Files folder called "V.I Suite." Of course, you can change this during the installation to whatever destination you wish.

IMPORTANT#2: The process of extracting ambience from a stereo recording can result in files that occasionally contain transient peaks exceeding 0dB, resulting in distorted sound. If your playback levels are too high, you may damage your equipment, and at the very least end up with a distorted file. Always use a limiter on the V.I, fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR outputs. These plugins are free to use at your own risk. The author of the V.I Suite plugins, Steve Thomson, assumes no responsibility for any damage as a result of their use or misuse.

Don't let this warning dissuade you, just be careful with your levels and follow directions.

Using V.I with Plogue Bidule
For Plogue Bidule users, I’ve created three Bidule layouts for V.I on its own, or with additional reverb effects for the rear channels. The V.I Suite installation program prompts you at the end to install these layout files if you have Plogue Bidule. If you don't currently have Bidule but intend to get it at some point, you can still install the layouts anyway. The installer will place them in your V.I Suite support files directory.

All three layouts feature a “5.1 OUTPUT” group that implements two essential tools used by professional sound engineers, dithering for converting output files to 16-bit format, and limiting to prevent clipping. You'll also need to install additional files available from other third-party sites. For links to the files and instructions, see:
GUIDE: Using V.I with Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=570433#post570433).
Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX Or Nuendo
To use V.I with Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo versions 2.x or later, see: GUIDE: Using the V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter in Nuendo and Cubase SX (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85694).
Using V.I with audio editing programs or players
GUIDE: Using Adobe Audition 1.5 or 2.0 to create 5.1 files (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106500)
GUIDE: Using Wavelab to create 5.1 files (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106494)
GUIDE: Converting stereo to 5.1 surround for FREE (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=105684) (uses Foobar2000 combined with Winamp plugins)

V.I guides on Other Sites
Creating a Pseudo 5.1 Mix from Stereo Source Using V.I. (uses Sound Forge and Vegas) (http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=292142)

V.I Web Site
For instructions on using the V.I controls, see the manual PDF that's installed with the software or check out the V.I web site (http://stevethomson.ca/vi).

Feedback
If you have any questions or comments about V.I or its companion plugins, please feel free to contact UrsaMtl (http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=56838).

Happy surrounding!
UrsaMtl

[ursamtl]

GUIDE: Using V.I with Plogue Bidule

Additional Required Software
In addition to the V.I Plugin Suite (http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI-II.zip), you'll also need the following:

Plogue Bidule (http://www.plogue.com)
V.I VST Bidule Layouts (http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip) (included with the V.I Suite installation program)
mda Dither (http://mda.smartelectronix.com/effects.htm)
Classic Master Limiter (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php)

If you want to try the two layouts with reverb, you’ll need the following two VST plugins:

Classic Reverb (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/)
SIR (http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html)

For free, top-quality reverb impulse responses, check out Noisevault (http://www.noisevault.com)

New Plogue Bidule Layouts
Three new Plogue Bidule layouts allow you to use V.I on its own, or
with additional reverb effects for the rear channels.

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/layout.jpg

On its own, V.I allows you to extract a lot of the existing ambience in a stereo recording. However, if you have a source file with
minimal ambience, or if you just want a more expansive, ambient soundfield, you can use either of the following:

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VIclassicreverblayout.gif
Bidule Layout with Classic Reverb

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/ViSIRlayout.gif
Bidule Layout with SIR (if you want to try impulse responses)

About the 5.1 OUTPUT Bidule Group

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/51output.gif

The 5.1 OUTPUT bidule group provides you with a way of adjusting the final 5.1 outputs from V.I so that you'll get the most professional sounding conversion possible. It uses two freeware VST plugins, the Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter and Maxim Digital Audio's mda dither, to provide you with the same kind of tools that professionals using commercial programs use to ensure top-quality mixes.

Limiting
A limiter works by detecting any volume peak that exceeds a preset threshold and limiting or reducing the peak so that it stays below the threshold. The 5.1 OUTPUT bidule group features four instances of, Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter to prevent any levels from overloading in the digital file and clipping the sound. One instance limits the L and R outputs, another is dedicated to the C channel, a third acts solely on the LFE channel, and a fourth limits the surround L and R. If you leave all controls to the right, only the occasional peaks that exceed a threshold of -0.2dB are reduced. Everything below that level remains unchanged, thereby ensuring transparent sound. Professional sound engineers use limiting all the time for this very reason.

Using limiting creatively
With a bit of careful adjustment (that means not too much!), you can even use the limiter on the LFE channel to tighten up the bass, or the limiter on the center channel to provide a form of rudimentary dialog clarity for movie soundtracks. This is because reducing the threshold value causes the limiter to boost the level of all sound waves below the threshold by a corresponding amount. In other words, if you set the threshold to -2dB, all the audio waves in the track are boosted by 2dB. However, since the limiter does not allow anything to go higher than the threshold level, you are actually compressing the sound. Now, this can be bad (especially if you're a purist!), or this can give you a tool for improving the sound of your surround mix, providing you use the control carefully and with restraint! For example, if you reduce the threshold on the LFE channel, you effectively boost the deep bass level but without over-loading it. If you reduce the threshold level on the C channel, you can even out the difference be-tween the quiet and loud passages of dialog in a movie so that it's easier to understand. You can also lower the threshold on the front or surround left and right channels to give the overall mix a bit more of a sense of punch.

Be careful with any of these controls, giving them more than a quarter to a third of a their range (or a half for the LFE channel) can reduce the dynamic range of the music and result in a kind of distortion that will ruin the sound of the resulting surround mix. In fact, this is a problem with a lot of modern com-mercial recordings. Many speak of something called the "loudness race." Different record companies try to make their product sound louder with the idea that it will sound more attractive. The result can sometimes be really horrible! Remember, It's not about being the loudest, it's about sounding good! When used properly, these controls can give your surround project a more professional sound.

Dithering
The other main feature in the 5.1 OUTPUT group is dithering. All internal processing in Plogue Bidule oc-curs at 32 bits. A standard 16-bit stereo file is automatically converted to 32-bit floating-point format (if the file is already 32-bit, then it's passed through without modification). It's well known that if you down-sample a digital file from 32- to 16-bit format, you need to apply something called dithering to avoid audible artifacts. The simple 32-bit output file? checkbox in the 5.1 OUTPUT group toggles the dithering on or off. If the box is checked, the output will remain a 32-bit file and no dithering is needed. If you clear the box, then the dithering plugins (three instances to cover all six channels) are automatically turned on.
Important: you still have to set the output file format on Bidule's Audio File Recorder. The 32-bit output file? checkbox in the 5.1 OUTPUT group is set up in the layouts I've provided to turn the Audio File Re-corder to 24 bits, (Bidule's parameter linking mechanism didn't provide a way to switch to 32-bit files). The difference between a 24-bit file and a 32-bit file is minimal and basically inaudible.

Unless file space is a real issue, you should try to leave your files in at least 24-bit format. Saving to a 32-bit file will provide no advantage with the currently available encoding software since it outputs 24-bit files only.

Step-By-Step Instructions
For a detailed, step-by-step guide for conversion using Bidule-based methods, see Step-by-Step Instructions for Plogue Bidule-based Stereo-to-Surround methods (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83844). At Step 4 in that guide, be sure to load the V.I VST layout you wish to use and adjust the controls as explained in the V.I manual.

[daphy]

WOW!

Hey Steve, now I now why you are that bussy this days :D :D :D
I will host those files this afternoon!

All three Bidule layouts feature a new “5.1 outputs” group that implements two essential tools used by profes-sional sound engineers, dithering for converting output files to 16-bit format, and limiting to prevent clipping.

nice :D

One request, can you please add some detailed screenshots for Nuendo usage, I´ll guess using this app is not that easy for most of those guys :D

I hope my wife gives me that spare time to check this out extensively ... ;)

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy WOW!

Hey Steve, now I now why you are that bussy this days :D :D :D
I will host those files this afternoon!

Thanks. Yes, busy with this along with everything else.

Originally posted by daphy One request, can you please add some detailed screenshots for Nuendo usage, I´ll guess using this app is not that easy for most of those guys :D

I hope my wife gives me that spare time to check this out extensively ... ;)
I don't have Nuendo myself but a friend who tested V.I and II in Nuendo is going to give me screen grabs in the next few days. Once I have them, I'll add them to the thread.

As for your wife, maybe you might try converting some of her favorite music to 5.1, and perhaps buy her some flowers and chocolates. :)

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

By the way, I'm also going to be posting directions for using the II plugin in Adobe Audition in the near future. If anyone has any experiences to share, please feel free to contact me.

Steve.

[DSP8000]

This is the best stereo to surround conversion method that I've heard so far.
Lots of choices,options,VST hosts...
The Nuendo conversion is not that simple as described but works.
OctoMaxx does sound sort of like stereo limiter if it's not controled in the 5.1 bus.
IMHO I preffer the Bidule layouts.
Once again you prove that there are some realy talented people here.
Good work Steve.
Oh, can you please post your Nuendo layout(work template) and VST presets.

Thanks again

DSP8000

[ursamtl]

Thanks for the feedback! Yes, the Nuendo method is difficult to sum up in a few words. Once I have the Nuendo screen grabs and info, I'll post as much as I can. I agree that OctoMaxx or any limiter can color the sound if one doesn't exercise restraint with the controls. Still, I like putting a brick wall there to prevent clipping.

I also like Bidule for its flexibility. It can be downright addictive to sit down and start playing with it!

Steve.

[daphy]

@ all

Needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org) is fixed and updated and contains the full package in one file!

THX Steve

CYA Daphy

[ursamtl]

Links added. Thanks Daphy!

[dani82]

@Eye of Horus

forum rule #4

how can you be mocking him, what gives you the right to judge his' works.

as for DSP8000, if you think there's a better guide, point him to it, instead of calling him igorant (pretty much imply)

if you're really leaving, bit of advice:

the earth isn't round, it's oval.

[ursamtl]

Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo
The latest versions of Steinberg Cubase SX and Nuendo offer professional multichannel audio production and support for multichannel VST plugins such as V.I VST.

For more information, see the separate thread GUIDE: Using the V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter in Nuendo and Cubase (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85694).

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,
I guess I'm doing something wrong but the output of V.I.VST SIR is 6ch silent wav. It's not all zeroes but when I open it with SoftEncode I've got 6 flat lines. I did try Offline mode as well as 16, 32 and 24 bit outputs. Any ideas?

As a sanity check I've tried other modules (5.1SAD, VoiceCenter) and got nice 6ch waves.

It looks like some VST are not thound but I did unpack your distribution.

Thanks in adavnce for help or suggestions!

I'm answering your post in this thread since the other thread is for the old V.I. It makes more sense to discuss the problem you're having here so that others who might have the problemw will find the answer more easily.

I just checked the distribution file that Daphy put together and posted on Needfulthings. It installs the VST plugins in the default Plogue Bidule VSTPlugins folder. However, if you happen to have some other setup, you may have to transfer some files yourself.

The following files need to be in the folder set in Bidule's VST Plugins path, which you can access by choosing Preferences from Bidule's Edit menu.

VI.dll
Classic Reverb.dll
Classic Master Limiter.dll
II.dll
mda Dither.dll
SIR_1008.dll

This is in Plogue Bidule 0.700. If you still have the old version, be sure to go to www.plogue.com right away and download the new version. The old one expires tomorrow. This new one takes a bit of getting used to since the interface and window handling has changed, but I've tested it and had no problems.

Also, don't forget to download an appropriate impulse response from www.noisevault.com or elsewhere to use in SIR.

Let me know if this resolves your problem.

Steve.

[oayz]

Ursamtl,

Thanks for speedy reply. I wonder where do you get time to play with the sound if you always online? :-)

Anyway, it still doesn't work but I think I'm getting closer to the problem. Browsing V.I. VST bidule and putting Primary Sound Driver(out) at diffrent places I found where the signal get lost. It is Classic Master Limiter. Inside there are 4 identical 2in/2out blocks. There is a signal at the input and there none at the output.

Since I'm not a master of biduling (yet :) I stuck. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[daphy]

I just checked the distribution file that Daphy put together and posted on Needfulthings. It installs the VST plugins in the default Plogue Bidule VSTPlugins folder. However, if you happen to have some other setup, you may have to transfer some files yourself.

It´s the default setting but you can use another path -> the complete VST-Pack installs in <progams>\steinberg\vstplugin so every one can use these VSTs with Nuendo or what ever!(also you have certainly the choice to use the plogue bidule path or any other path)

@oayz
my experiences are the same no output after bidule -> only empty 6WAVs(I also notified Ursamtl by PM) :(

@Ursamtl
are sure that nothing´s missing. Maybe in your major setup you have further VSTs avaible :rolleyes:

@all
some of you guys managed to make these VSTs work - what have done diffrent as we did :confused:

Also, don't forget to download an appropriate impulse response from www.noisevault.com or elsewhere to use in SIR.
I guess this theme needs another guide, SIR is not that easy to use, so a seperate thread on using it will be recommended! :rolleyes:

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,

Thanks for speedy reply. I wonder where do you get time to play with the sound if you always online? :-)

Anyway, it still doesn't work but I think I'm getting closer to the problem. Browsing V.I. VST bidule and putting Primary Sound Driver(out) at diffrent places I found where the signal get lost. It is Classic Master Limiter. Inside there are 4 identical 2in/2out blocks. There is a signal at the input and there none at the output.

Since I'm not a master of biduling (yet :) I stuck. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for giving me this feedback since it helped me track down a serious omission on my part. Somewhere in posting or editing my guide, the link to Kjaerhus Audio's fine Classic Master Limiter plugin got deleted. In turn, since Daphy didn't have it when he packaged the all-in-one distribution, anyone installing from it would have problems with the bidule layouts. I apologize if this oversight caused anyone to waste a lot of time.

Just go to http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php and download the plugin then install it in the folder set in Bidule's VST Plugins path, which you can access by choosing Preferences from Bidule's Edit menu.

Once this is in place, you should be good to go!

I've added the link to the bidule part of the guide and removed the all-in-one link until Daphy gets time to update his installer.

By the way, for those of you with problems using the bidule layout, Oayz used exactly the right technique here for troubleshooting. If a checkmark appears next to Offline Processing in the Edit menu, click on it to clear the checkmark. Then in Bidule's Palette, expand Audio Devices, choose one of the Output devices and click and drag it onto your workspace. (If you have an ASIO multichannel output, use it. If not, use the Microsoft Sound Mapper under MME). Next, connect outputs from different modules and groups throughout the signal flow to the output device until you find the module giving problems.

Hoping this helps,
Steve.

[daphy]

okay, needfulthings is fixed!

[oayz]

Ursamtl and Daphy,

Thanks for quick help. I new I was missing something :-) BTW, I don't think it's your fault. Bidule can and should be able to report missing groups or dlls. Seems like you know Bidule's author very well, maybe you can suggest him this new feature.

One other thing bothers me. I never sure if I got channel assignment right. I read guides, look on the waveforms, audit them but still. Is there any way to have a "test mode" to help in channel identification? Or maybe a test file?

Back to sounds!

[daphy]

what kind of test file do you need?
there are several diffrent one on the @ndy´s FTP Server (ftp://daphy.mine.nu) ;)

[ursamtl]

I know in the old version of Bidule, a group that was missing a VST would display in a different color, but I haven't had time to test this with the new version yet or to see if it's still the case when the VST is part of a nested group (a group within a group).

As for channel assignments, a test sound would be a good thing, yes. I'll try to implement it in the next version of V.I as a button that sends a short white noise pulse to each channel.

In the meantime, the assignments are L, R, C, LFE, sL, sR. I know when you load a 6-channel file produced with one of the V.I Bidule layouts into SoftEncode, the channels are not correctly assigned by default. This is because SoftEncode is a few years old and follows an older standard. It's easy using the icons in SoftEncode to re-assign the channels and I think having to do this is good as it forces one to review the channels at that point. For example, if there is sound in the LFE channel, it will look much less active than the others, so if it's not in the fourth channel from the top, there's a problem. You could always customize a bidule layout by resaving it under a different name and then routing the outputs to suit your needs.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[oayz]

Test file to allow me to identify each channel. Ideally after the processing it would say "left","right","center" etc. in particular channel or at least "beep" there. Currently when I get my 6 channels out I never sure how they are assigned. What if I have FR swapped with RL? Right now I use a 2ch wav with distinctive left, right and center then match it with 5ch out, try to make a guess and compare with what is specified in the guide.

When I get more familiar with Bidule I'll trace signals in the layout and find the actuall channel assignment but it would be much easier if we could incorporate it as a part of the tool.

BTH, based on the number of questions related to channel ID it a pretty common problem especially considering that people use different tools to open 6ch wav.

Please don't consider it as request or something. It's just an idea and I'll try to find a solution on my own.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
I'll try to implement it in the next version of V.I as a button that sends a short white noise pulse to each channel.
....
It's easy using the icons in SoftEncode to re-assign the channels
...

I do exactly this in SoftEncode. Though detecting LFE is obvious and center is usually not a problem L,R,sL,SR are pretty much the same and easy to confuse. You idea with pink noise would work just need to standartirize the sequence of chennels it goes to.

[daphy]

yep,

the final VST-Plugin fixes all problems!

Steve, your THE man!

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy
yep,

the final VST-Plugin fixes all problems!

Steve, your THE man!

Thanks. How did you like the resulting surround sound?

[ursamtl]

Hi folks,

Just to let you know I created a new installation routine for V.I using an installer utility. This program checked your registry for the current shared VST Plugins folder on your system and defaults to installing V.I and II in that folder. Be sure your VST host program (Bidule, Nuendo, Cubase, etc.) is set to read that folder.

You can download either a self-extracting .exe file or a zip file, from the updated links in the first message of this thread. As for the 3rd-party plugins, please download these from their respective sites or from Daphy's all-in-one install.


Regards,
Steve.

[oayz]

Ursamtl,

You were right - Bidule does highlight missing DLLs. In my setup they are red while others are greyish blue. I just had no idea what did this highlighting mean - that would save some grief for me and you.

I did a brief test of V.I.VST and found its sound very pleasing. One thing did bothered me though - the "center" sound isn't actually removed from Left and Right. Any particular reason or it's just hard to do right? It's not a big problem but we won't benefit of having center anchored - it's position will depend on the position of the listener.

In any case - thanks for the great stuff. Now I don't have to think about capturing 6ch output of my reciever :-)

[daphy]

Hi again,

yesterday I only did one small test (it was too late :( and I had to pick up my wife from the station) but this one sounds really good!
I guess I also have to play with the center settings, in my example the center was too dominat in comparision with FL/FR :o

Nice new installer, I will check it out and host it after work!

Steve, is it possible to make some screen shots about the hanlding of SIR? I will host some impuls file then, too. I guess SIR is for the most user a barrier (for me to because of the lack of time) which could be easy to clime with some tiny guide :D

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,

You were right - Bidule does highlight missing DLLs. In my setup they are red while others are greyish blue. I just had no idea what did this highlighting mean - that would save some grief for me and you.

I did a brief test of V.I.VST and found its sound very pleasing. One thing did bothered me though - the "center" sound isn't actually removed from Left and Right. Any particular reason or it's just hard to do right? It's not a big problem but we won't benefit of having center anchored - it's position will depend on the position of the listener.

In any case - thanks for the great stuff. Now I don't have to think about capturing 6ch output of my reciever :-)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, the center isn't removed. I could have implemented one of the LCR approaches that were posted here (with text for two of the three approaches originally written by Mike Miles and posted to the SurSound mailing list on Jan. 9, 2004). The problem I see with these is that they assume that the center speaker is of equal quality to the left and right speakers. In many cases, this is not so. Obviously, a subwoofer will help fix deep bass problems, but high-frequency imaging and detail, especially in music, could be completely mangled by removing all central information and sending it through a center speaker that may not be equal to the left and right. There is also the issue that one of the three LCR approaches is patented.

Nonetheless, I am thinking of implementing some sort of switchable center extraction control in my next major rev of V.I.

For now, the center is extracted the traditional way by summing the stereo channels and reducing the level by half. I also added a high pass filter to remove any deep bass since many center speakers usually can't handle it as well.

By the way, you might try moving the limiter threshold for the center channel to the left. This will compress the center channel and boost its overall level (by boosting the quieter sounds) without distorting. Doing so might help give you more of sense of separation and dialog clarity. Don't go too far with this (no more than the halfway point) or it'll make the center sound boxy.

Ciao,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy
Hi again,

yesterday I only did one small test (it was too late :( and I had to pick up my wife from the station) but this one sounds really good!
I guess I also have to play with the center settings, in my example the center was too dominat in comparision with FL/FR :o

Nice new installer, I will check it out and host it after work!

Steve, is it possible to make some screen shots about the hanlding of SIR? I will host some impuls file then, too. I guess SIR is for the most user a barrier (for me to because of the lack of time) which could be easy to clime with some tiny guide :D

Glad to see you put the wife before your surround experiments! That's how it should be. :)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I'd recommend reducing the center level a bit if it sounds too prominent. You could also make sure the limiter threshold setting for the C channel is set to the far right to elminate compression or boosting. Check my answer to Oayz's message concerning center for more discussion of the center.

Using SIR in a basic way is actually quite simple, but I'll try to put something up on the weekend. Obviously, you can do a lot with its controls but the main thing is to load a good impulse, turn off the autogain button and adjust to suit your preference. One thing to remember when using SIR is that the other channels need something called delay compensation. SIR introduces a delay of 8960 samples (about 203milliseconds), so the channels not going through SIR need to be delayed by the same amount. That's what the delay compensation group is for in my bidule layout.

Ciao
Steve.

[ursamtl]

This message is to let all forum readers know that I've updated the Bidule layouts for V.I that you can download at http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip.

In my tests with the new version of Plogue Bidule, I noticed that when opening these layouts, which I created in Bidule v.6602, the patchbay would shrink to a tiny window behind the other windows. I worked with the folks at Plogue to fix this bug and found it was just one geometry setting that needed changing.

I've also updated the images in this thread to reflect the new version of Bidule. I'm currently working on an installer that will automatically install all plugins and layouts in their proper locations according to how the software is installed on individual computers. For now, simply upzip the layouts and place them in your Plogue Bidule "layouts" folder.

Regards and belated happy Thanksgiving to our American forum members.
Steve.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
... Yes, the center isn't removed ... The problem I see with these is that they assume that the center speaker is of equal quality to the left and right speakers. In many cases, this is not so ... For now, the center is extracted the traditional way by summing the stereo channels and reducing the level by half. I also added a high pass filter to remove any deep bass since many center speakers usually can't handle it as well

Hi Steve!
Sorry for a delay - holydays as you've already noticed. Thanks for you suggestions. Compressing voice (center) does work well. Still have to try playing with SIR.

In regards of removing center. IMHO, most of us have balanced home theater systems where center is matched with L/R. You can't get decent DVD expirience without this. Or is it only in US? Of cause it doesn't mean the center is as capable as normal speaker - usually it starts at 60Hz and in case of small sattellite system - at 120Hz. However I don't think you should HPF anything. AC3 decoder knows speaker configuration and does it for us. We only need to separate LFE.

The problem with your center channel approach C=(L+R)/2 as you probable aware of is that is reduces front image. If the sound is located exactly at L then we will have C=L/2. That would effectively move the sound from L to 1/3 between L and C. I shouldn't say it's a problem - it's actually a good compromise used by many of the shelf recivers. The advantage - it allows to keep L/R channels unchanged. In any case if shorten front image is a problem we can always widen it, can't we?

Separating center isn't trivial and can always result is some distortions. I probably will stick with your current method.

[ursamtl]

I'm glad to hear the compression worked for you. Compression has a bad reputation because it's frequently overused, especially on the entire mix of many commercial release lately. However, when used carefully, sparingly, and for the right reasons, it can be quite effective.

You're right that with a balanced and matched system, any modification to the center channel should be unnecessary. Unfortunately, many systems are not balanced. If one buys a dedicated 5.1 package with matching speakers, it's fine. However, many buy really good front L-R speakers and then add on the other channels. Depending on the choice of speaker for the latter, the results can vary. By the way, the AC3 decoder doesn't do anything to the five channels it processes other than routing the signals. It doesn't filter their sound in any way. According to the Dolby spec, AC3 includes five full-range channels and a sixth channel for LFE.

I've experimented with several different approaches and I found that they all do a nice job of spreading two channels across three, but when I turn the center off, I realize that the center is carrying too much of the "load" for reproducing the soundstage.

However, my experiments have been focused more on music than movie soundtracks. The effect I just mentioned of having the center with much of the sound, may actually be desirable for a soundtrack with most of the dialog in center and then the rest of the soundtrack in the background. This is why I'm thinking of adding such a circuit to V.I and having a sort of Movie/Music mode toggle. This wouldn't be the same implementation as Dolby Pro Logic II. It would instead focus more on the dialog separation aspect.

To get the most out of SIR, I recommend you explore some of the impulse downloads at www.noisevault.com. With the right set of impulses, the results can be stunning. I'm going to try to get a SIR guide ready for later today.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[ursamtl]

I just completed a self-executing Shockwave demo of using SIR with V.I in the Plogue Bidule layout.

You can download it here. (http://www.vdn.ca/~ursamtl/siruse.exe) (841KB).

This shows the basic setup. You can also check the short help instructions that come with SIR.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
... the AC3 decoder doesn't do anything to the five channels it processes other than routing the signals. It doesn't filter their sound in any way. According to the Dolby spec, AC3 includes five full-range channels and a sixth channel for LFE ...
Not sure if it's a part of Dolby spec but most recivers allows to specify so called "size" of the speakers - small/large. I beleieve for "small" a receiver routes more low frequencies to subwoofer (starting from 120Hz vs. 80Hz for "large"). Also at least my reciever Onkyo TX-DS676 allows to enable/disable front/rear/center/sub. If speaker is disabled its signal is properly routed to the rest.

[daphy]

Using SIR, a shockwave demo
I just completed a self-executing Shockwave demo of using SIR with V.I in the Plogue Bidule layout.

You can download it here. (841KB).

This shows the basic setup. You can also check the short help instructions that come with SIR.


THX

I guess this guide is the missing part of the puzzle :D

I will upload the guide this afternoon!

[DSP8000]

First of all, Steve thx. for the screen grabs and all your information about the new V.I. :)
I had some probs with my forum account and I couldn't post for 5 days. :(
@ The "Hearing Expert" EOH
You just don't deserve my time, and just for your information I have MASTER OF DEGREE in music performing arts (sax & clarinet) so whatever I can hear for you is just a fantasy.
If you read my reply you'll see that this is MY opinion and you or anyone else don't have to agree with me on that subject.
Steve, sorry for posting here this but I just had to.
One more question, what SIR impulse responces would you reccomend?
I use Lexicon rooms,plates,halls.
Thx. again

DSP8000

[ursamtl]

Hi DSP,

Glad you found the info and grabs useful. I find this whole thing quite fascinating at times and it's a joy to be able to share it with others. One reason I put the on/off button on V.I was because it never ceases to amaze me just how much detail and three-dimensionality is hidden inside music I've listened to for years. Switching the plugin off and on a few times really brings this point home. Depending on the routing in a bidule layout, it's possible to do this same thing by switching processing to bypass, but it only works if the resulting bypassed routing restores a regular flow of stereo through the front speakers.

The Lexicon impulses are a good choice. The noisevault forum has a vote-based rating system that I find quite helpful for avoiding the bad impulses. My experience has been that the 7/10 or higher impulses are generally quite good. Check out some of the "real space" impulses. There are some nice ones available.

Impulses can really add a nice sense of space, especially to recordings that seem dry. For instance, I was experimenting the other evening with tracks Steel Dan's Gaucho album. The recording is tremendously pristine but quite dry. V.I by itself tended to simply wrap the sounds around me. The instruments had more body and definition, but adding a reverb impulse to the surrounds gave the whole thing an extra sense of space and seemed to help background vocals really breathe.

Regards,
Steve.

[joseartur]

HELLO
i need your help, i try to load the plugin "VI.dll" in VST folder of
Steinberg Clean, but d`ont work, only the "II.dll" appears in the program, can you help-me ?
my version of the Steinberg Clean is 4.0
thanks

[daphy]

maybe steinberg clean won´t recognize this file because it can´t use it? :confused:

[ursamtl]

The V.I plugin only works in VST hosts that support a completely multichannel signal path such as Plogue Bidule, AudioMulch, Steinberg Cubase or Nuendo 2.x or higher. For programs that don't support V.I, the II plugin will give you the left and right surround output that you would get from V.I.

Regards,
Steve.

[Tantulus]

Ursamtl:

I have been experimenting with Audtion 1.5 using convolving VST's and would glad to be of assistance with that aspect of your project. Also, I am really pleased to see the interest in SIR and noisevault. Perhaps the most important parameter for emulating space is reverb. A bit of advice to those trying to chose IR's. Always check the jewel case to see if the recording venue is noted. That way you can get a better match to the original ambience of the recording, leaving the results less muddy.

Tantulus

[ursamtl]

I've also noted that Noisevault specifies the bit depth of the impulses. I've been working with the set recorded at the Concertgebouw at 24 bits. I used a recording of the rear reverb from the point of view of a mike placed front center. I loaded this into SIR and used it to treat the surrounds coming out of V.I on a classic rock album (Led Zeppelin I). I used the length adjustment in SIR to tame the long reverb tail somewhat so as not to detract from the front. V.I already extracts the reverb in the original recording so leaving the full tail in place led to too much reverb on the back to the point where it detracted from the front soundstage. With the shortened reverb tail, the whole thing ended up sounding very natural sounding with a truly three-dimensional sound. I used the new version of HeadAC3he to create a 48kHz AC3 version and the resulting file was 145MB for the entire album! Through time, I intend to create DVDs of my favorite albums. I'll scan the album artwork, etc., to create visual stills and then mux this with the audio to create surround DVDs containing a handful of albums.

[Tantulus]

For those of you who have Bidule and only 2.1 speakers I've worked out a method of monitoring both surround channels. Basically add a mixer between 5.1 output and windows sound mapper. You can then switch the output to the mapper and alternately monitor each of the surrounds through the front speakers.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/audio_mixer.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/0011.JPG

For those of you wishing to build a DVD compilation of albums I strongly suggest Soundforges's DVD Architect for templates and even slideshows to accompany the music. Another suggestion is to use CAMSTUDIO to capture the visualizations from programs liike Windows Media Player and mux them with the music on DVD.

Tantulus

[daphy]

@Tantulus

new bidules are always welcome :D, if you like to share it with the community please send the bidule + plus needed VSt-plugins etc. to me (daphy@spymac.com). I will upload it ASAP (f.e. as temp. download until needfulthings is up again).
(@ndy my server administrator is hitten by the serve flu - that´s why needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org) stays under construction - sorry folks :( )

An other question: is it possible to mix with your methode a 7.1 layout: 5.1 descret and the missing 2 channels as matrix inside LS,RS.

I bought a new receiver (Yamaha RX-V2500 real hot this machine, recommendable ;) ) which offers a lot of possiblilities more than my old one!

[Tantulus]

@Daphy:

I hesitated to upload this bidule because it is a revision of someone else's work. I only suggested a variation. If you feel that this is legitimate as a new bidule I'll be happy to upload it. PM me with your opinion.

As to your question about 7.1 I would suggest using the audio matrix component rather than the audio mixer. The mixer merely mixes down multiple tracks to stereo. Audio matrix allows you to mix and match not unlike SRS or Prologic II. I don't pretend to know much about it but I think by overlapping the missing 2 channels with the inputs for LS and RS you will achieve your result. Below, each channel for 5.1 is mapped 1:1, input to output but the two missing channels of 7.1 are mapped to the same output as LS & RS thus matrixing them.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/0014.JPG

I only used the mixer as a rude switch to monitor my settings in the VI bidule.

Humbly,

Tantulus

[oayz]

Since Bidule is not free anymore and the price is quite steep ($75) is anybody looking for alternative way to do 2->5.1

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Since Bidule is not free anymore and the price is quite steep ($75) is anybody looking for alternative way to do 2->5.1

It is possible to do the conversion for free and legally, but it's not quite as easy as with Bidule. One possible course of action would be to use a program called Kristal Audio Engine. It's a really nice free multitrack recording program, something like a stripped down Cubase. It supports VST plugins. I've tested II with it, and it works fine.

So roughly the process would involve:

1. Loading a two channel file in and running it through II for the surrounds. If you wanted reverb, either use a reverb VST plugin or SIR with an impulse response in the second VST slot (each channel in Kristal supports 2 VST plugins. Output the result to a 2-channel wave file. Split the file into individual left and right files. This will be your surround left and right.
2. Create the center channel by mixing the left and right source channels to mono at -3dB each.
3. Create an LFE channel using a low-pass filter such an HMN with the crossover really low, perhaps around 60Hz (which is what I used for V.I.
4. Split the original stereo source file to creat the front left and right. If you want the width control feature in V.I, use a typical stereo width plugin to achieve the same thing. One really good free one I've used is mda Image.

Take these six files and process them as per the guides.

This method would take a bit of trail and error, but it should be possible to produce good results once you've tried it a few times. I'm in the middle of a new condo purchase and move so I don't have a lot of time to develop a full guide right now. Once I do, I'll be happy to put something better together. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to give it a go, I'll certainly update the guide list as soon as the guide is available.

Regards,
Steve.

[oayz]

Steve,

Thanks for reply. I will probably look into these graphedit based approaches. Good like with your condo, moving does take a lot of time.

[jm duchenne]

Hi,
It is possible to do the conversion for free and legally, but it's not quite as easy as with Bidule.
You know, there are also other free modular softwares : Audiomulch or Synthedit can do the same things than Bidule.

Regards,

[Tantulus]

@Daphy

Just to let you know I uploaded my layout for the V.1 monitor bidule that I mentioned above. It's a self-extracting zip file that should automatically extract to the layout directory in Bidule.

How are you doing with your 7.1 system? I bet you'd get great results with ambiophonics. I just set up 7.1 for my system by using an old receiver to amplify the back surrounds. I've been thinking of a way to matrix the back surrounds and place them in an ambiophonic setup myself. But that's another thread.

Have fun!

Tantulus

[specise_8472]

Originally posted by Tantulus
@Daphy
How are you doing with your 7.1 system? I bet you'd get great results with ambiophonics. I just set up 7.1 for my system by using an old receiver to amplify the back surrounds. I've been thinking of a way to matrix the back surrounds and place them in an ambiophonic setup myself. But that's another thread.

Have fun!

Tantulus

For DTS 6.1 see
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68029

There should be a VST that takes the three rear channels and mixes into DTS EX 2 channel. Daphy should have it on the old FTP.

7.1 is not 7 discrete channels. It is 2 rear (behind) the listener with the Rear Center repeated in both. The surround channels LR are to the side of the listener.

And from memory, my old 1.5 Ambiophonic Decoder does this mixing - would have to go back to my source and look.

[Tantulus]

I'm afraid I confused things. My receiver's manual (Onkyo TX-DS797) refers to the two rear speakers as "surround back". Hence my expression. I really appreciate your clarifying that the rear speakers are not discrete. I sort of assumed they were. You've saved me the trouble of setting up an ersatz ambiophonic system.

I'll take another look at your decoder. My goal is to use a stereo dipole and create Front surrounds for early reflections and use the surrounds for reverb. I hoped to use the surround back channels for the front surrounds. I guess it's back to the drawing board. I'll look at your 1.5 decoder and see if something comes to me. Probably easier to use the rear speakers for reverb and leave things as they are.

Thanks for your input.

Tantulus

[specise_8472]

Another thing to remember is that Ambiophonics is based upon an Ambisonic decode to get a WXYZ signal.
Actually any method that produces WXYZ feeds can be used to feed an Ambiophonic decode.
Ambiophonics is the method to convert these feeds into speaker feeds.

There is also Pana-Ambiophonics which is the Stereo Dipole version you are talking about. If you dig back into the Forum far enough, you will find some of my Stereo Dipole stuff. Particually some specially modified impulse responses for different angles of seperation for use in SIR.

[Tantulus]

Actually, I found your stuff. If you have the time could you write a guide on using your Pan-ambio creations. I've ordered Glasgal's book from the library but a little tutorial for applying this in Bidule would be welcome.

Tantulus

[daphy]

Hi folks,

I just arrived from a long bussiness trip - so I am a little outdated :(

7.1 projects
I didn´t found the time to take a closer look on this project, afai remember specise_8472 projects are still part of the vst-plugins + bidule packages. (I guess we should split this thread at this point into three -> 'methods after bidule´s trial ended' or something like this; '7.1...' and this orignial thread)

bidule
as I warned before, one day it will lock and no beta will continue the trial periode (ursamtl we spoke about this in autumn)

In my opinion the goal should stay: makin´ 5.x out of 2.0 without commercial software :rolleyes:
there are also other free modular softwares : Audiomulch or Synthedit can do the same things than Bidule.
Did someone tested one of this apps meanwhile? Are there any possibilities to share project files like bidule?
Are there any problems with the compatibility of VSt plugins?

You've saved me the trouble of setting up an ersatz ambiophonic system.
are you German
;)

[Tantulus]

@daphy

I'm actually Russian-American but I have pretensions!

Let's not abandon Bidule, I knew this time would come but I've invested so much in it and Plogue has been so helpful that I feel I owe something to them.

Tantulus

[daphy]

I'm actually Russian-American but I have pretensions! please do not missunderstand me, I asked because of the word "ersatz" :D

[ursamtl]

Just to comment on a couple of the recent posts (still in new-home mode here so not a lot of time. God, there are so many choices, decisions, etc.).

daphy, V.I works on Audiomulch with no problems, but I don't know if it provides the option of saving project files for sharing, etc. However, it's not free. Last I checked, it was $49 US. As for synthedit, actually I used Synthedit to write V.I so it's definitely compatible! The problem is, its free version only supports 2-channel input/output. I bought a license before writing V.I and this allowed me to do the 6-channel output. It was cheap (only ~$25 CAN), but it doesn't have a multichannel file reader or writer. I believe it's theoretically possible to create a layout with three 2-channel file writers, but I haven't had time to explore it. And again, the free version doesn't allow multichannel use.

The closest prospect I see if something I mentioned in a previous post, Kristal Audio Engine. It allows one to set up multiple tracks at up to 32-bit resolution and apply different VST effects, two per track. Plus, it has ASIO support. The only problem is that its output is currently stereo only. For someone with a setup such as Tantulus, with only 2-channel monitoring at a time, it could be fine. It's just a matter of saving three 2-channel files for the six 5.1 channels, then splitting them to 6 wave files for encoding. I thought a couple of times about writing Kristal's authors and asking if it would be possible to add multichannel ASIO output (since it already supports ASIO input/output). This would provide us with basically a free version of something similar to a very basic Cubase SX, since the program currently seems very much like a 2-channel Cubase-type program.

The other option I haven't had time to explore fully is any free ware multichannel VST hosts that might be out there. I know there are a couple of freeware hosts, I just don't know if they'd support multichannel. If so, it might be possible to do something with three 2-channel file writers in synthedit. Then if they allowed arranging multiple VST plugins, we could do something with SIR, etc.

As for Bidule, I don't plan on abandoning it. In fact, I recently purchased the early-bird licence at $75/US, since the authors assured me the lite version this licence will eventually be limited to would always support the multichannel surround processing we've been doing. Nonetheless, it would be nice to find a free solution.

Final comment, about Ambiophonics, my biggest problem with pursuing this approach is that, to my understanding, one needs to move the front left and right speakers to +/- 10 degree positions. If I was going to set up a dedicated system, then fine. Otherwise, I'd have to either put up with a greatly reduced soundfield on commercial 5.1 releases I listen to (both movies and music) or else move speakers all the time.

Now where did I put that color chart..... :)

[f@chance]

You're right that with a balanced and matched system, any modification to the center channel should be unnecessary. Unfortunately, many systems are not balanced. If one buys a dedicated 5.1 package with matching speakers, it's fine. However, many buy really good front L-R speakers and then add on the other channels. Depending on the choice of speaker for the latter, the results can vary.

I've experimented with several different approaches and I found that they all do a nice job of spreading two channels across three, but when I turn the center off, I realize that the center is carrying too much of the "load" for reproducing the soundstage.

This is why I'm thinking of adding such a circuit to V.I and having a sort of Movie/Music mode toggle. This wouldn't be the same implementation as Dolby Pro Logic II. It would instead focus more on the dialog separation aspect.
Thanks Steve for your hard work. Hope you have settled in and have finished with the color charts :)

I have also a typical DVD setup with 5 equal speakers KEF 5002 and noticed the level of the surround and front speakers being a bit too high but your above explanation is very helpful. Have you ever given it more thought to include a Movie/Music toggle to the VST plugin? Again I am very happy with this approach to stereo to 5.1 upmix but since my interest is mainly in TV series such a toggle would be excellent.

Thanks again for your very hard work.

[ursamtl]

Thanks Steve for your hard work. Hope you have settled in and have finished with the color charts :)

I have also a typical DVD setup with 5 equal speakers KEF 5002 and noticed the level of the surround and front speakers being a bit too high but your above explanation is very helpful. Have you ever given it more thought to include a Movie/Music toggle to the VST plugin? Again I am very happy with this approach to stereo to 5.1 upmix but since my interest is mainly in TV series such a toggle would be excellent.

Thanks again for your very hard work.
Hi and thanks for the feedback. The next V.I will have just such a toggle. Just keep an eye out here and as soon as it's released, you'll be able to check out the new features.

[ursamtl]

Hi folks,

After experimenting with some enhancements and implementing some changes suggested in emails, I've decided to share V.I version 0.900 to get some feedback.

Here are the changes I've implemented in this release:
Movie mode switch added to accentuate center channel dialog frequencies. All filtering removed from center channel when movie mode is switched off. Range of Rear Level command rescaled to allow for more realistic default level.IMPORTANT INSTALLATION NOTE: You can simply copy the vi.dll file to your default VSTPLugins folder. However, I recommend that you first install V.I version 0.500 along with the accompanying II plugin and Plogue Bidule layouts. Then simply overwrite the original vi.dll with this new version. A full installation will be available with the upcoming V.I version 1.0.

Here it is: V.I version 0.9 patch file ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI0900.zip)

Let me know how this works for you.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[johnman]

I think i found a bug.

Whenever the width correction is changed, the host is not notified. With all the other sliders and knobs the host does get a notification. This is both in v0.9 and the previous one.

[ursamtl]

Interesting. This may be so because the width correction acts on the input stereo signal before it is converted to multichannel. Does this notification have any ramifications for hosting?

[johnman]

The notification only tells the host that a particular parameter has a new value.
So i *think* this doesnt really matter, except the host doesnt know when the value is changed. So if the host decides to store all values, the values from the width doesnt get updated.

You say "This may be so because the width correction acts on the input stereo signal before it is converted to multichannel". Does this imply that this behaviour is not programmed by you? :confused:

And i think all updates on knobs and sliders etc should be passed to the host, but im not really to sure about it. Anyway, a host can always decide to ask the value from all the parameters, and then it doesnt need to keep up with the changes.

EDIT

I have to correct my earlier statement. The width correction has *no* associated parameter, so it can notbe set or read externally by using setParameter or getParameter. So i think it can be only set manual by using the slider.

Since ww (or any other host) can only set parameters, is it possible to associate the width correction with a parameter?

BTW, i have converted my first file with VI using my own host :)

EDIT2

Sry im going of offtopic a bit, but i also noticed the same behaviour (settings without a parameter) on other vst's. This is kind of a disappointment since it means that you can NOT always store the settings of a vst. And reconfiguring it over and over again for every file off a batch conversion doesnt seem attractive. Am i missing something? Or is vst just not really suited for batching?

EDIT3

With the help of the author of "vsthost" i also found out its possible to get/set all settings as a single datablock using effGetChunk/effSetChunk. But even when this is used, i still can not set the width slider of VI. Other vst's that have sliders without associated parameters do give a full configuration using getChunk. VI can not in anyway give all the configuration data :(. Since this info is not usefull for ppl using VI, ill PM you about this subject instead of posting here from now on.

@bobcat: TY :)

[bobcat56458]

Just a word of thanks to johnman for your ongoing efforts in developing a VST host. I’m looking forward to the release of Wavewizard with VST host capabilities!

[f@chance]

Just one question will this affect in any way those who use Plogue Bidule?

[johnman]

Just one question will this affect in any way those who use Plogue Bidule?
what do you mean by "this"

If you mean the problem with not being able to set the width correction slider from within the host, i think it might. But this depends on a couple of things...

EDIT its VERY unlikely this will give problems (look at post below).

[ursamtl]

Just one question will this affect in any way those who use Plogue Bidule?

No it shouldn't. The issue is more one of saving custom configurations from the program into which you load V.I. In other words, if you like a certain setting for the width correction slider, you'll have to note it by writing it down. You can't save a configuration file and then load it to get the same setting. As far as I understand it, this is a limitation of the method I used for creating V.I, which is via a modular program called Synthedit. I'm not a c++ programmer so I didn't write the program from scratch. I initially designed the algorithm for the conversion using Plogue Bidule. Then I recreated the connections and parameters in Synthedit, which allows one to export to VST. So far, I've had no reports of problems when using V.I with Bidule, Nuendo, or Cubase.

[f@chance]

OK, that makes sense. My way of working is in this fashion, when prompted to save I ALWAYS say NO because I want the layout and configuration the way Steve set it up. There always is the possibilities that by saving you fould up some parameter that sneaked in unbeknowing to you.

Anyhow sofar it worked and I don't mind setting up the values again, it is not like I am in production. Given enough time and back to square one, it will eventually be perfected in the meantime I know one way that works start PB, load the VST, set the sliders run the job.

Thanks for everyones effort in perfecting this and making us Surround junkies happy :D

[ursamtl]

Well if you come up with a layout that works for certain things, you could always save it with a different name. As far as not being able to save the width correction setting, although I didn't plan it to be "non-saveable", this is not necessarily a bad thing. The control is meant to be used when monitoring a source and then correcting it, especially in the case of music. It should be set individually for each source, so what works for one source might not for the other. In this sense, not being able to save the width correction settings forces one to start with no change to the original width of the source and then fine tune it if necessary.

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

Just the few conversions I have made sofar and we talk about 10 to 20, I have noticed such a variety in different volume and other audio track specific settings that I agree it may not be a bad idea to individualize each conversion.

Anyhow, I am ready to do 3 TV episode tracks tonight with the new movie switch. I am looking forward to spend after work some more time behind screen and keyboard instead of telly and remote control ;)

[ursamtl]

I look forward to hearing how these turn out.

[daphy]

Hiho,

I did some test and was surprised - in my opinion the movie mode is a good addition :thanks:

[f@chance]

I looked at the input stereo stream and peak volume was below -6db. After setting the slider for Centre channel to 1 the resulting 6 WAV files all looked excellent withe the exception of the centre channel being a bit high in volume. I have encoded it and will run it tonight through the system and report back.

Playing back the FR, FL they sounded excellent during the dialogue portion of the TV epiosde and so did the SR & SL tracks. Center channel definetly has all the dialogue. From all outward appearance it looks like we have a winner here and my $75 investment in PL looks better and better.

[Radiomans]

Hi

f@chance;
Most of my tv episode's have a peak volume of about -6db
can u please tell me which slider you are setting to 1 ??
and what effect it has on the centre channel.

I have been playing with settings on V.1 and seem to have
made things sound ok :cool:

The settings i have used are:
Width correction - leave as is.
Front ambience - leave as is.
Rear ambience - set to 8.
Rear level - set to 6

I also am happy with my investment in PL

Hope this is of some help to someone.

Radiomans :helpful:

[ursamtl]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad the Movie Mode switch seems to be useful.

[f@chance]

@Radiomans.

The Frontambience & widt correction I also have left. In addition I have left the Rear Ambience the same.

I believe the settings are 0.* to 1.0 and so I have moved the Center from 0.85 to 1.0 reducing the compression and resulting volume increase.

The rear level I have set to the same level as the Rear ambience. But I may try to set the rear level lower.

@Steve By decreasing the Rear Ambience was results am I to expect?

Edit: Just read the 1 st page DOH, by decreasing the rear ambience I presume it will enhance the front.

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Actually moving the Center Limiting Threshold to 1 won't increase volume, it will just remove the compression completely, thereby reducing the level of the quietest sounds in the center channel. If the center level is too high, try reducing the Center level control (third from the bottom in the 5.1 Output object of my Bidule layout).

Decreasing the rear ambience won't change the front sounds in any way, it will just make them either more apparent or else make the whole thing sound flatter and more 2 dimensional. If the rear ambience is turned up, sound will appear to come out of the back. As it is turned down, instead of the rear speakers being apparent on their own, sound will seem to be everywhere, with the sounds in the front seeming to come from the front but with a sense of space and dimension to them (sort of 3D sound). If you reduce the rear level too much, the front sounds become smaller and more like plain stereo. Part of the balancing act is to play around with the controls to find where the whole thing sounds unified and three-dimensional. Too much rear ambience can sound weird and "gimicky" whereas not enough rear ambience won't provide that sense of realism. I tried to come up with a fairly balanced compromise with the default middle settings in V.I.

Happy experimenting!

[bobcat56458]

Thank you ursamtl for the new version of V.I with its movie mode! I made a 5.1 wave file with it of a stereo DAT (digital audio tape) that I had digitally transferred to my computer. The audio was of Mothers Day 1998 when the family got together for a sit down meal. I had recorded the event with my Sony PCM-M1 portable DAT recorder using an Audio Technica AT822 stereo condenser microphone. After converting it to a 5.1 wave file with Prologe Bidule, (a new free ver 0.9 demo is now available that will work till Jan 19th) and the new V.I bidule with movie mode, the resulting 5.1 wave file has a natural sounding surround sound that places the listener into the environment of the event. I will also be using this with DV camcorder recorded audio/video when authoring DVD’s with a DD5.1 soundtrack.

[f@chance]

After spending most of yesterday evening and most of today encoding with different settings for the particular TV episodes of SGA I have come up with settings that are on my system far better then the DD 2.0 with DPL II mode.

Using PB 0.9, the lastest version and the 0.9 of V.I. with movie switch ON, I have used the following settings:
Rear Ambience 8
Rear Level 7
all other slider settings are the default ones.

EDIT:
Changed from LFE Limiting Threshold 0.6
to
Limiting Threshold 0.85
all others threshold settings are default.

Front Level -2.0
Surround Level -2.0
All other Level settings are default.

Once done I run the resulting WAV file through BeSweet to create 6 Mono WAV files and open the Centre sound track in Sound Forge and process it with Normalize RMS -20db to get the peaks down to -6 db.

Edit:
Added Open LFE in Sound Forge and run Normalize Peak -16db to increas LFE level a bit.

Encode it with the default settings in Soft Encode for DD 5.1

I am very happy with the end results to have an improved SGA version in DD 5.1 rather then DD 2.0

Many thanks to everyone for making this possible and hat off to you Steve.

[ursamtl]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the feedback! I'm happy the new movie mode worked well for you. It was an idea I had in mind for awhile and finally sat down one evening and put together. It's great to know it helped.

It's also good that you shared your settings and described your projects and equipment in detail. This helps others who try experimenting with surround projects or who are just starting out.

Regards,
Steve.

[daphy]

Hi Steve,

is it possible to add some numbers on the sliders, it much easier for an old guy like me to read then to count :D :D :D
Seeing those settings makes me wonder if we should collect them as a kind of - let´s say reference base?
Steve, is it possible in the next version to save or import such settings as template/preset?
Did you already setup a new bidule file? In my opinion saving the old one once with the new version - this error message (some parameters ....) disapears for ever ;)

@f@chance
did you tried to reach the same result without editing the single channels twice?
there are some further free VST-plugins around for limiting/RMS and other stuff - if you did your own routing - plz upload your bidule file ;)

Something diffrent:
after receiving a message from my provider that he can´t offer the webspace anymore we´ve moved to another host - but the old site is still up :confused: let´s wait how long this rests :o
for uploading, plz send a pm before you use the upload function on the old server - everything might be gone within a second :eek:

[f@chance]

@f@chance
did you tried to reach the same result without editing the single channels twice?
there are some further free VST-plugins around for limiting/RMS and other stuff - if you did your own routing - plz upload your bidule file ;)
For me the problem is to visualize what is happening and what I am doing. By opening it in Sound Forge I could get a better impression of the sound track and the effects of processing it. For example I ran -20db RMS on the LFE track and it actually decreased the amplitudes. So for the normalizing I needed a visual feedback that told me the effects of my settings.

I have not done my own routing, I am a newbie with PB and have to divide the time spent on these projects between obtaining the episodes, converting the video and correcting glitches, now I added processing the audio which I never have done before. Eventually I will become more daring in experimenting with PB and the bidules :D

[ursamtl]

Hi Steve,

is it possible to add some numbers on the sliders, it much easier for an old guy like me to read then to count :D :D :D<

Seeing those settings makes me wonder if we should collect them as a kind of - let´s say reference base?
Steve, is it possible in the next version to save or import such settings as template/preset?

Actually I'm thinking of redoing the interface at some point because there's not much room to add any more controls without things getting too crowded. for example, I have an idea for adding an extra output and switch for doing 6.1 conversions as you and a couple of others have suggested.

I could easily add a numeric output field beside the sliders. As for saving settings, etc., I have to investigate this further. I believe there is an issue when doing this with VSTs created by the development program I used to create the plugin. I'll see what I can come up with. At the very least, having numeric fields would allow us to exchange settings and create a reference base such as you suggest.

Did you already setup a new bidule file? In my opinion saving the old one once with the new version - this error message (some parameters ....) disapears for ever ;)
Yes, sorry. I`ve just been busy with home ownership issues. Apartment living was so much simpler.... :) However, winter is coming and I'll soon have more time to huddle in the computer room and experiment. :)

Good luck with the new server.

Regards,
Steve.

[bobcat56458]

Steve: Is there a way to adjust the LFE frequency cutoff? Earlier in this thread you mentioned that it is set at 60Hz, that seems a little low considering at that setting the subwoofer is only handling the 20Hz to 60Hz frequency range. A setting of 120Hz or even up to 200Hz seems to be a more normal range for a subwoofer.

[ursamtl]

Hi Bob,

The thing to remember is that the LFE frequency cutoff has nothing to do with a subwoofer. If your playback system is set to a crossover frequency of, say, 120Hz, then everything below that from any channel including the LFE channel will go through the subwoofer. All I did in V.I is add the potential to boost extra deep bass by putting signal in the LFE channel. If I move the cutoff frequency in V.I higher, then the bass will get too much boost. Plus, there are all kinds of issues with peopl ehaving different crossover settings. By moving it down to 60Hz, we still have the potential to beef up the bass without getting into a messy situation. Remember LFE does not equal subwoofer; they just happen to cover similar frequency ranges.

Regards,
Steve.

[daphy]

Hi Bob,

The thing to remember is that the LFE frequency cutoff has nothing to do with a subwoofer. If your playback system is set to a crossover frequency of, say, 120Hz, then everything below that from any channel including the LFE channel will go through the subwoofer. All I did in V.I is add the potential to boost extra deep bass by putting signal in the LFE channel. If I move the cutoff frequency in V.I higher, then the bass will get too much boost. Plus, there are all kinds of issues with peopl ehaving different crossover settings. By moving it down to 60Hz, we still have the potential to beef up the bass without getting into a messy situation. Remember LFE does not equal subwoofer; they just happen to cover similar frequency ranges.

Regards,
Steve.
AFAIK the crossover frequenzy for THX is between 80~100Hz. My personal experience is around this falue most setups worked fine for me. What do thing about a further slider ... (if I would ask for one more feature, Steve will definitivly kill me :p )

[f@chance]

Depends what you are using it for. In my case a slider for the LFE frequency is not needed as TV episodes do not have a lot of bass. Let steve work on refining the interface before adding features :D

[bobcat56458]

Steve: Thanks for the detailed explanation, your right, it’s something I had read before, but had forgotten when I posted.

[ursamtl]

AFAIK the crossover frequenzy for THX is between 80~100Hz. My personal experience is around this falue most setups worked fine for me. What do thing about a further slider ... (if I would ask for one more feature, Steve will definitivly kill me :p )

Again, that's a bass management crossover below which the sound goes to the subwoofer. Whether the sound comes from the LFE channel or from the 5 other channels, if it's below the crossover frequency, it goes to the subwoffer.

There's another issue to keep in mind when raising the crossover frequency too high. If you happen to be playing back a conversion on a Pro Logic (I or II) system, the downmix algorithm simply ignores the LFE channel. Therefore, if I put a crossover on the LFE and provide a slider, someone who puts the slider in the high range risks lossing all bass below that frequency if it`s played back on a Pro Logic system.

Besides, V.I doesn't have a crossover, the 5 channels are full range. I just add a small amount of extra bass below 60Hz by using the LFE channel for it. That way, if someone wants a bit of extra bottom end in their converted 5.1 mix, they can do so without messing up the rest of the low end.

daphy, I welcome your suggestions for more features! This is how we all come up with new ideas. For instance your suggestion of a 6.1 version of V.I is possible since the algorithm I used for the surround channels in V.I actually has a center surround feed that I simply split 50-50 between the sL and sR. I plan to try the 6.1 version as soon as I have some time to do it. If it works, then we'll have a new plugin to play with called VI.I :)

[ursamtl]

EDIT: VI.I Stereo-to-6.1 Surround Processor withdrawn to to lack of interest.

[ursamtl]

Hi Steve,

is it possible to add some numbers on the sliders, it much easier for an old guy like me to read then to count :D :D :D
Seeing those settings makes me wonder if we should collect them as a kind of - let´s say reference base?

Actually I was experimenting this evening and found that you can indeed save settings. If you look at the top of V.I as it appears in Bidule, there is a dropdown list on the left for naming the patch and then to the right of it are a series of buttons. The Rename button allows you to assign a name for your patch, then the Load and Save buttons provide the file loading and saving routines. I tested this tonight by setting the V.I sliders in non-default positions, then saving the file. I then closed Bidule and re-opened it. I opened the V.I layout and then loaded the test file I'd saved. It reset all the V.I sliders to the positions I had set them before saving the file.

So, it is possible for us to save settings we like and to exchange them, collect a reference base, etc.

[zbozx]

Steve, is V.I. filter open source? I ask you this because in XBMC forums we discuss to integrate your filter in XBMC. Would be possible?

[ursamtl]

Steve, is V.I. filter open source? I ask you this because in XBMC forums we discuss to integrate your filter in XBMC. Would be possible?

It's not officially open source but I'm not opposed to its integration in principle. (Do I get a free XBox 360 out of the deal? ;) (just joking).

What about adding overall VST hosting to XBMC? Then you could have V.I and many other free VST plugins. Plus, as I improve V.I, XBMC users would have access to the new version. I do have a couple of neat things planned, so it'd be kind of a drag to freeze it

Anyway, feel free to contact me with PM or email about this.

Regards,
Steve.

[guada 2]

Hello ursamtl,

Great job :)

Just a question:
Why V.I does not support Steinberg Wavelab 5, whereas Nuendo and cubase function perfectly?

Thank to clarify.

[ursamtl]

To be honest, I have no idea, but I can guess that it's because Wavelab's surround mode assumes an euqla number of inputs and outputs. I might try creating a version of V.I with dummy inputs to see if that works.

Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad you enjoy V.I.

[MiGster]

Can't seem to figure this out it was working before. I'm using V.I Converter guide and your V.I plugins to convert stereo to 5.1 channel waves and then into Soft Encode to a .ac3 sound file. The problem is after I rip the CD using EAC and then convert using Bidule the audio speeds up during playback. This is before I use Soft Encode on it. So something is set up wrong in Bidule. I've been through it a 1000x and get figure out what is wrong. Does anyone have any guesses??

[ursamtl]

Sounds like it could be related to sample rate. If you're playing back a 44.1kHz file at 48kHz then it will definitely sound faster. Check your settings. If you need to convert to 48kHz because your final AC3 file is going on a DVD, then you need to use a sample rate conversion program, preferably on your source file. Two free and high-quality choices are r8brain or ssrc. Google them or search on the forum here and you'll find out more. Let us know if this fixes it for you.

Regards and happy holidays!
Steve.

[MiGster]

Hmmmm, I'll try it tonight when I get home. I am a bit of a newbie at this. Thank you for the reply, I'll let you know. Great program by the way!

[MiGster]

Yep, that was the problem...thanks. Learn as you go. Now I will always check that setting. Thank you for your help.

What will be our options to use your VST's after the Bidule software expires in January...besides buy it? Is there somthing else that is freeware or less expensive to use?

[ursamtl]

MiGster,

I'm glad it worked out for you. There's nothing comparable to Bidule available for free, although, Plogue may release another time-limited free version in January. There will be a couple of ways to do conversions with V.I for free. I know that johnman is working on VST hosting for his excellent wavewizard program, so that's one possibility. I also have tested a version of V.I in the past that includes saving files from V.I even when it's loaded in a 2-channel VST host. I'd have to spend some time getting that option presentable to the public, but that remains a possible way to do it as well. Keep your eye on the forum here in January and we'll see what comes up.

[MiGster]

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[MiGster]

On your Stereo to 5.1 Converter screen which way is INCREASE effect left or right on each of the four sliders. Sorry, I'm a little dense....really getting into this though thanks to you.

[ursamtl]

The bottom three sliders increase the effect as you move them to the right. The Width Correction slider is slightly different. In its center position, the signal passes through it unchanged. Move it to the left, and the stereo image narrows; move it to the right of center and the width increases.

I'm glad you're enjoying the conversion hobby. It can become quite addictive.

Regards,
Steve.

[arnie.d]

I tried V.I for the firt time today. I think even I can make a 5.1 upmix now! :)I noticed when using the default settings the center channel was twice as loud as the FR and FL channels, is this normal? I've set the center channel output to -6, then the channels are about the same volume.
Why are the center and LFE limiting threshold 0,85 by default?

[ursamtl]

Hi arnie. I'm glad you're enjoying V.I. I'm surprised your center channel was so loud. One complaint I've had in the past is that it's not loud enough! As for the 0.85 setting, it was just a default setting in the layout. Feel free to change it to something that works better for you.

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

The complaint about the center channel is too loud and the FR & FL not loud enough may come from the impression that since the majority of scenes are conversation it should be full surround sound, but that is not desirable.

I do a lot of TV episode encodings and use the Movie Mode. In TV episodes most of the sound will come from the centre speaker and if you listen to the separate MONO files you will notice that in the FR & FL the voices are very faint, that is by intention and should be so.

My settings for FL & FR are set at -2.0 and the sliders are at default with the exceptions of the two bottem ones. The bottom one is at 7 and the next to bottom one is at 8.

After V.I. does its job I create 6 MONO wave files and open the Center channel, FR, SR & LFE in soundforge. I check the visual feedback to see if they have not deviated from what I have done in the past. Then I use the NORMALIZE process to attenuate the Center channel by just about 2 to 3 db from what it was.

This gives me a very pleasing DD 5.1 sound track especially as I like to turn up the volume. When playing back Stargate Atlantis for example, 75% of the sound comes from the centre channel with hints of ambience from the 4 others. But during the theme or battle scenes I get the full tilt boogie surround sound as expected. I also noticed that if you turn up the volume it will give a better surround sound effect with these settings.

Hope this helps and Steve thanks again for V.I. I am using this especially for Stargate Atlantis since the sound track that accompanies the HDTV broadcast is only DD 2.0.

[ursamtl]

I'm happy to get the feedback and the detailed description of how you're using V.I. This will certainly help others who are trying to improve the soundtracks of TV series on DVD, etc.

By the way, check back in the coming days (perhaps even by the weekend). The next version of V.I is just about ready to roll out. :)

[guada 2]

@ Hello ursamtl, :)

" To be honest, I have no idea, but I can guess that it's because Wavelab's surround mode assumes an euqla number of inputs and outputs. I might try creating a version of V.I with dummy inputs to see if that works.

Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad you enjoy V.I " (ursamtl)


Good news.
After having installed SONAR 5 PRODUCER EDITION, VI function perfectly on Steinberg Wavelab 5.
Strange.... (I do not know more) but it functions in "Mode VST VI" with effect DirectX.

Your point of view on the question?

[ursamtl]

That's very strange. It sounds like Sonar is wrapping V.I as a DX effect and then Wavelab is in turn wrapping it as a VST of a DX of a VST!

[ursamtl]

@ Hello ursamtl, :)

" To be honest, I have no idea, but I can guess that it's because Wavelab's surround mode assumes an euqla number of inputs and outputs. I might try creating a version of V.I with dummy inputs to see if that works.

Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad you enjoy V.I " (ursamtl)


Good news.
After having installed SONAR 5 PRODUCER EDITION, VI function perfectly on Steinberg Wavelab 5.
Strange.... (I do not know more) but it functions in "Mode VST VI" with effect DirectX.

Your point of view on the question?

Guada,

I'm curious, does V.I work in Sonar as well? If so, I'll add it to the list of supported hosts and perhaps someday find some info for a guide.

[guada 2]

@ursamtl

Yes, It functions without problem with Sonar5 PE(5.0).
To soon ;)

[guada 2]

@ursamtl

After some REAL tests.

I am sorry to say to you that VI and II does not function with Sonar5. :(
I do not understand why, whereas it uses it perfectly well.

However Wavelab is OK.

You have an idea.

[guada 2]

Its me again ursamtl,

Good news. :)

I reassure you, it functions with mode FX (audio effect) and not with "inserting effect" or "treating effect" (by making a double clic on the track).

it is OK for CAKEWALK SONAR PRODUCER EDITION (5.0).

You add it to list Now. :)

[ursamtl]

Ladies and gentlemen....

I am very happy to announce that I've just released V.I VST Stereo to 5.1 Converter Suite version 1.00. I edited the guide at the beginning of this thread to reflect the new release.

New features: User Interface updated.
New installer places VST dll files in VST folder, creates separate folder and Start menu links to documents, then installs Plogue Bidule layouts if you have Bidule.
Surround algorithms optimized for cleaner sound and lower CPU usage.
Ability to save and load patch banks added.
fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR plugins created for VST hosts that support stereo VSTs only.I have also completed tests on a completely free (and of course legal) method of producing stereo to 5.1 conversions using the plugin suite. I'll be posting a guide shortly. I still think Plogue Bidule ROCKS and I strongly encourage you to buy it, but for those who can't afford it right now, my guide will be an option. Look for it soon!

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

I am pleased to announce that I've just released V.I VST Stereo to 5.1 Converter Suite, version 1.1.

After last week's release of V.I Suite 1.0, I discovered that three out of the over 200 connections inside V.I had been inadvertently disconnected. This reduced the amount of ambience in the surround channels. This applies to the companion plugin sLsR as well. I've fixed this in version 1.1 and also added an improved front ambience algorithm that I've been working on. This new front ambience change applies to the companion plugin fLfR as well. I hope you'll like the result!

You can download V.I VST Suite here (3.8MB):

V.I Suite 1.1 Installer ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.exe) or as a zip file V.I Suite 1.1 Zip file ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.zip)

IMPORTANT!!!: This installer automatically checks your PC's registry for the current shared VST Plugins folder and defaults to installing the plugin in this folder. Be sure the VST host program you use (Plogue Bidule, Cubase, Nuendo, etc.) is set to read this directory. If your system does not have a default VST directory, the V.I Suite installer will place the files in a subdirectory of your Program Files folder called "V.I Suite." Of course, you can change this during the installation to whatever destination you wish.


Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

By the way, some people have noticed the error message "Some parameters could not be loaded" when opening the Plogue Bidule layouts for V.I. I've noticed this as well. Specifically, the effects presets I stored in V.I don't load. The plugin still works, but you may have to click the Load button at the top and load the vi.fxb effects presets file. The folks at Plogue are at the NAMM show right now so I don't want to bother them too much. Once they get back, I'll track down the problem and if necessary, fix the problem in an update or new release. In the meantime, V.I works very well. One of my friends has Nuendo and told me this morning that this new version works perfectly with it.

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

Steve,

I installed the VI version 1.1 but to my surprise it shows as 0.9 in the left corner. Is that a result of the long hours you spent slaving over this thing in our behalf? :)

Also I tried to load the VI.fxb again but the some parameters could not be loaded still shows up.

Any help on the first item as long as I am using 1.1 I don't mind what it displays as I am about to do a Stargate Atlantis conversion.

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Hmmm, sounds like you still have v0.9 sitting on your hard drive and your VST host is finding it instead of v1.1. Double check where your host program looks for VSTs. If that doesn't work, do a search on your hard drive for vi.dll. There should only be one, and it should be dated January 22. Also, if you tried loading VI.fxb in version 0.9 then you'll definitely get the error message.

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

I changed the Plugin Path in the Preferences for PL and 1.1 came up. I noticed that the sliders for the from ambience is set to center and that the movie mode is off by default.

Movie mode I presume is the one to use when lots of dialogue appears in the video correct?

Is the change of the front ambience because of your improved algorithm and to the left redues the front ambience an to right enhances the front ambience?

In the previous versions I had set the Front Ambience to 8, Rear ambience to 8 and the rear level to 7.

Dragging the slider for Rear Level to 7 will this reflect approxamately the same settings as before or are we talking about a totally new animal here because I also noted that limiting threshhold is gone. Since in the Front & Rear level my settings were -2.0 are these settings necessary again? I do like my Front & rear levels a bit lower in volume and rather raise the amplifier volume.

Finally I tried to LOAD the VI.FXB again but still the no parameter error occors, anything to worry about?

Thanks a lot for this excellent effort and you have a fan over here in the UK for producing such excellent audio tools.

[ursamtl]

f@chance:

Glad to hear you have the right version working now. Movie mode is intended to center dialog as much as possible yes, but it can aslo be effective with some music as well. As for the front ambience, yes, it seemed to be better to reduce the setting by default and then let those who want to increase it do so on their own as the ambience level it produces is stronger than it was in previous versions. This also applies to the rear level. In v1.1, the ambience extraction routine is stronger. As for the limiting threshold in the Plogue layouts, I decided to set all levels to no compression, just limiting. That way, people who feel the need to boost levels with compression can do so. At the far right setting, the circuit is limiting peaks to just below clipping level while still allowing for maximum dynamic range.

Let me know how the Stargate conversion turns out. This new version should give an even bigger sound for it.

Strange that you're still getting the parameter error. I really have to discuss this with the Plogue gurus and see if we can track down the problem. One trick I did find is that if select V.I and then right click and use Bidule's Replace command to replace it with another instance of V.I, the new instance loads in with the effects presets intact.

Finally thanks for the kind words. I enjoyed putting V.I and the related plugins together so I'm happy it's doing something for you. I'm working on a couple of other enhancements should be good as well. So there's more to come. :) For now, enjoy!

Steve.

[f@chance]

Thanks for the explanation. The trick that you are using Bidules replace, I don't quite get that.

To select V.I do you mean to select the little square box that has the audio player feeds and connects to the 5.1 converter and has the label V.I.?

If I then right click and use Bidule's Replace command to replace it with another VST - Steve Thomson - VI. The little square part changes into V.I_1 and the red part just disappears.

Sorry for being so dense but I know how twiddle knobs and move sliders but Bidule is a foreign world otherwise.

Thanks for your quick answers and help.

EDIT:
I think I got it once the red thingy dissapears if I double click on the small square V.I_1 it reappears but when I do another load of the VI.FXB the parameter errors message reappears.

Sorry No Output
Just tried it and did not get any output from the new version. I'll see what I can do and check back later.

[ursamtl]

For the replace routine. You shouldn't have to load the VI.fxb file afterwards. If the menu in the top left of the red V.I window says "Starting Point" then you already have the presets.

For the no output problem, did you add an output device in place of the File Recorder or in addition to it? If not, go back and read the guide and also the thread on using V.I with Plogue Bidule.

[f@chance]

Thanks for your help and I need your assistance here. I did not add any devices.

I just temporarily placed the default Sound driver output to monitor where the sound stops. I get output ot of the VI module. But I get no sound out of the 5.1 module.

I used the windows installer and it created the default directory:
c:\Program Files\ V.I Suite and in the directory it placed the 4 DLLs VI, SLSR, FLFR, CLFE.

It placed the the three layouts into the default directory:
C:\program files\plogue\bidules\layout

I changed under preferences the VST Plugin path from
c:\program files\plogue\bidule\VSTPlugins
to
c:\program files\v.i suite
I started PB and it opened the V.I. with the parameter error message. The 5.1 module had ONLY the 4 level sliders.
In this configuration I got no sound out of the 5.1 module.

I copied the 4 DLLs from the V.I Suite directory to the c:\program files\plogue\bidule\VSTPlugins directory and changed the VST plugin path to this directory. This time the 5.1 module has the 4 level sliders but also the 4 Threshhold sliders. In this configuration sound comes out of the 5.1 module.

Please tell me which way is the correct way to take advantage of your new algorithm. I am sure it is just a matter of having the correct path and DLLs in the right place. Hope this makes enough sense for you to give me some advise and for you to get an idea of my configuration.

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Yes, that's how it works. I think what happened was that when you changed the VSt directory to point to v1.1, you weren't getting the dither or classic limiter plugins. Once you got all your VST plugins in the same directory, everything worked.

[Jenri]

Hello, and many thanks, ursamtl:
This it about the message "Some parameters are not loaded".
If you say "Get the button LOAD and Charge the *.fxb parameters..." I can't to find this parameters. Only Windows open the dialog box to search the parameters, but I can to find.
Some little help from you... if it possible...

Thanks in advance.

My opinion over the guide:

- Fastttttttttttttttttttttttttt!
- Very customizableeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, thanks God -and you-.
- Stronger sound.
- Strong channels sepparation.

A question -off topic- How is that EOH don't coming here to make their critics about? IMHO, the guide and the method is compact: Only we can make is to experiment and go, and go to making subtles upcomings...

Thanks again por your efforts, knowledge and solidarity.

Pepe.:thanks:

[f@chance]

@Jenri

Find the little rectangular box on the back ground of PB with the name V.I. It has two leads going in and 6 coming out. click on it and somtimes you have to wait until it turns orange. THEN right click on it and you will get the pop-up menu with the REPLACE menu item. Click on Replace, click on VST, click on Steve Thomson, click on V.I

Then wait again and you will see the name changes from V.I to V.I_1 or V.I_2 depending on how many times you have done this process.

On the top left corner of the RED V.I. box you should see the entry "Starting Point". Now you are set to go.

@Steve
Thanks again for your help and after work I will be off to do SGA. Run a few different settings, burn to DVD sit in the sweet spot and evaluate it until I am happy with my custom settings. I will let you know what my results are.

From our previous conversations, you know I do almost 99% TV episodes which is often 75% dialogue. Am I correct that the previous default settings that you had for the Center & LFE threshhold sliders was 0.85 with rest being 1.0?

Thanks again for your hard work and I am looking forward to follow along with your future developings.

[ursamtl]

Hello, and many thanks, ursamtl:
This it about the message "Some parameters are not loaded".
If you say "Get the button LOAD and Charge the *.fxb parameters..." I can't to find this parameters. Only Windows open the dialog box to search the parameters, but I can to find.
Some little help from you... if it possible...

Hi Jenri,

If you installed the V.I support files using the installation program, you should be able to find the fxb files in a subdirectory of your Program Files directory called V.I Suite. This depends on your specific computer, but for example, if your Program Files directory is on your C drive, then it should be "C:\Program Files\V.I Suite" by default. You can always do as f@chance suggested and right click on the V.I object in bidule and replace it with a new instance of V.I. The default presets should appear then.

Thanks for the positive feedback about the new version and the guide. It's great to know people find it all useful. There's more to come!

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

Steve do you remember what our default settings were for the Threshhold slider? I thought it was 0.85 for LFE & Centre and 1.0 for the rest. I want to start from what I know produced a pleasing track. I thought I had written it down but I wrote all the other setings except the threshhold ones.

Thanks and I thank you for the more to come bit :)

[ursamtl]

Yes, they were at 0.85 although this should make very little difference in the output of these two. Once you move the sliders to the left of about 0.75, you start noticing a more significant boost.

[Jenri]

Both @ursamtl (Steve) and f@chance:

- Thanks many for the explanations.
- I use the Plogue-0.85 and once the new instance of VI was introduced, I save the patch as default and the message not more appears.

From the times of early ambisonics-methods, I like too much Plogue's application. But more, the people like yours, wich work for the others without obtain nothing to exchange -only our respect and recognition-.

Like says the YES group you're part of ..."ALL GOOD PEOPLE".

See you soon...

Pepe.:thanks:

[arnie.d]

This program is so cool!
fLfR, CLFE and sLsR work very well in sony sound forge.
Thanks for this great software!

[ursamtl]

This program is so cool!
fLfR, CLFE and sLsR work very well in sony sound forge.
Thanks for this great software!

Arnie,

Thanks for the info and the kind words! I haven't worked with SF since I played with v4 where I used to work. How is it now that Sony took it over?

[arnie.d]

I haven't worked with SF since I played with v4 where I used to work. How is it now that Sony took it over?
I didn't know SF was taken over by sony. I've only seen SF 7 and 8 (both sony).

[arnie.d]

I was wondering, does SF use/need the "classic master limiter" and "mda dither" dlls when using the sLsR, fLfR and CLFE plugins/dlls? Would it be enough to keep the sLsR, fLfR and CLFE dlls put them in a plugin folder and link SF to the folder? I know SF sees them all as seperate plugins so I guess mda dither and classic master limiter are not used when I use the sLsR or other plugins...

[ursamtl]

No, you'd have to add them or do limiting and/or dithering in SF using it's own plugins or settings.

SF was originally developed by a company called Sonic Foundry, but I believe Sony purchased their audio software a couple of years ago.

[arnie.d]

I'm a bit confused now... (not sure which question you're answering). Do I need the "classic master limiter" and "mda dither" dlls or do the sLsR, fLfR and CLFE dlls function without them?

[ursamtl]

Yes, they certainly function just fine without them. You should always apply some kind of limiting to the outputs to ensure that your resulting files don't peak above the clipping level (0dB). Although your source stereo file might not do so, the process of extracting ambience can sometimes result in peaks above 0db because certain sounds may no longer be combined with others that mask them by cancelling them out (this goes back to all those high-school physics lessons). As for dithering, you only need that if you need your final files to be in 16-bit format. Some explanations of this are found in the other V.I guide.

[f@chance]

Well Steve, I am going to be honest. I was very sceptical when version 1.1 with new settings and methode came out, because v. 0.9 did an excellent job. Must be because I have lived for almost 10 years now in the UK and they religiously go by the phrase, if it was good enough for my Grandfather it is good enough for me.

But I was blown away after my first two Stargate Atlantis encodes. Original soundtrack was DD 2.0 converted with besweet to WAV file and THEN, and THEN the magic of V.I. using all your default settings with just the change in the Center Threshold from 1.0 to 0.8 and the LFE threshold from 1.0 to 0.75. Plus a normalizing of the LFE using -16db Peak settings.

Burnt the DVD set in the swet spot and it was fantastic, you have definitely improved on it. In one scene the ceiling caved in and you could tell the surround effect from the left to right rear as the rafters fell. I was just gob smacked (UK speak for speechless).

Well, if you have other things in store for the future all I can say bring it on.

Many, Many thanks this went much, much easier then I ever anticipated and your settings are spot on.

[aboland17]

Hi Steve,

Firstly, let me say what an incredibly useful utility you have produced - many thanks for all the hard work involved in its development. Secondly, I have just tested version 1.1 of V.I (using bidule v0.9) and have noticed that moving the width correction slider either left or right seems to make no difference to the output sound. So I went back to versions 0.5, 0.9 and 1.0 and found that the slider works on each of these earlier V.I releases.

As you said in the release notes for version 1.1, there is certainly more ambience in the fronts (with the slider all the way to the right) and the rears are definitely at a higher level now. Hope I haven't caused too many problems. Keep up the fantastic work mate!

Kind regards,
Andrew.

:thanks:

[ursamtl]

Thanks for the feedback, Andrew. I'll look into the width correction settings. As I mentioned when I released 1.1, there are literally several hundred connections inside of V.I so disconnections do happen.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Steve.

[daphy]

again: fine work http://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/kidding.gif (http://www.maxthon.com/)

Thank a 1000x

[f@chance]

@Steve,

I almost forgot after using the V.I. installer I received a dialogue when starting PB that there are duplicate "mdaX" plugins. I traced it back to the plugin mda Combo & mda Shephard. Reading the properties of the DLLs it seems from those entries that they are different. Does V.I. use these plugins?

Thanks for your help.
Hans

[ursamtl]

@Steve,

I almost forgot after using the V.I. installer I received a dialogue when starting PB that there are duplicate "mdaX" plugins. I traced it back to the plugin mda Combo & mda Shephard. Reading the properties of the DLLs it seems from those entries that they are different. Does V.I. use these plugins?

Thanks for your help.
Hans

Hi Hans,

No V.I doesn't use either of these plugins. They come as part of the mda suite of plugins. By definition, all VST plugins must have a unique 4-character ID coded into them. There must be some conflict between two of the mda plugins. I thought perhaps it might have been a conflict with the id I used for V.I but I tried a different one and still got the same message so it must be something else not related to the V.I plugin.

[daphy]

I once noticed this eror, too but meanwhileis gone -> does this mean that some of thoses mda plugins are active anymore? :confused:

[ursamtl]

I haven't used all the mda plugins, but any I did use worked fine.

[f@chance]

This it what it says from the properties of the DLL

File Name: mda Combo.dll
Company: maxim digital audio
Internal Name: mdaX
Product Name: Amp & Speaker Simulator


File Name: mda Shepard.dll
Company: maxim digital audio
Internal Name: mdaX
Product Name: Shepard (Risset) Tone Generator

Which of these would you say I should keep in the plug in directory while the other one goes into the back-up?

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Well Hans this would depend on your needs. Do you need an amp & speaker simulator (simulating the effects of an electric guitar amp and speaker combo) or do you need a tone generator? Or perhaps you need neither.

[f@chance]

Well looks like the combo if anything at all. Definetly not in need of a tone generator. Thanks for the help and I wish you the best with the further development.

On a side note TMN (The Movie Network) is airing Stargate Atlantis and the glorious HDTV Transport Stream (4+ Gig per episode) is available, but it has DD 2.0 sound, thus my great interest in V.I. TMN broadcasts without a logo the closest one can get to studio quality video, for sound I come here :)

Thanks
Hans

[Jenri]

Hello, Ursamtl:
I ask you some questions about the conversions with V.I. Suite, if you please,

01. In the "using Plogue"... I can read "dithering techniques", and I ask you: The WaveLab's command UV22 HR from Apogee does not work very well than the included techniques on the V.I. Suite? If this is true, how can I to procced in order to not includes the internal dithering of V.I. techniques in the final file(files)?

02. Newbie doubt: When I look the blue/orange module -in Plogue Bidule- named Audio File Recorder, I can view six squares above, corresponding to the six channels of the surround mix. The ask -I Know, of nebwie- is: What's the real name of every of these blue square channels?:helpful:

Thanks a lot,
Pepe.;)

[Jenri]

Hello, Ursamtl:

Good feedback. I've applied the defaults values except in the final output, logically: I've choose the option of six waves mono directly from the Audio File Recorder, and also, 16 bits.
The results are impressive. Many instruments seems to me appears like an enchantment. And you must say that: I don't have 5.1 speakers, only two magnificents MAGNEPLANAR'S SMGA, but SOMEBODY CAN TO TASTE THE DIFFERENCE.
Only a doubt: Both the rears retains a little portion of the vocalists voices, perfectly audibiles when I test the SL/SR channels on the SondForge. I think that is normal from the point of view of the new dimension of soundstage (360 degrees), but there's a "something" stranges voices sounds. There's some way to eliminate these sounds or -like I think- is better to let there?:thanks:

Thanks so many in advance and GREAT SOUND IN THIS SYSTEM!!!!!!
Pepe.:)

[ursamtl]

Hi Pepe,

Actually Wavelab's UV22 HR is a very popular and effective dithering tool. I certainly recommend using it if you can. Up until the release of V.I version 1.x, I haven't been able to recommend using Wavelab with V.I plugins because it simply did not work with V.I. Wavelab does support surround work in Audio Montage mode, but it does not seem to support VST plugins that have a different number of inputs and outputs. However, by splitting the original V.I plugin into the three 2-channel plugins fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR, I was able to come up with a way to use V.I surround in Wavelab, Adobe Audtion, and other VST hosts. In fact, I'm working on guides for both Wavelab 5.0 and Audition 1.5-2.0 right now!

2. The channel order for V.I's outputs is as follows:

1. fL (front Left)
2. fR (front Right)
3. C (Center)
4. LFE (Low Frequency Effects)
5. sL (surround Left)
6. sR (surround Right)

I hope this helps.
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Hello, Ursamtl:

Good feedback. I've applied the defaults values except in the final output, logically: I've choose the option of six waves mono directly from the Audio File Recorder, and also, 16 bits.
The results are impressive. Many instruments seems to me appears like an enchantment. And you must say that: I don't have 5.1 speakers, only two magnificents MAGNEPLANAR'S SMGA, but SOMEBODY CAN TO TASTE THE DIFFERENCE.
Only a doubt: Both the rears retains a little portion of the vocalists voices, perfectly audibiles when I test the SL/SR channels on the SondForge. I think that is normal from the point of view of the new dimension of soundstage (360 degrees), but there's a "something" stranges voices sounds. There's some way to eliminate these sounds or -like I think- is better to let there?:thanks:

Thanks so many in advance and GREAT SOUND IN THIS SYSTEM!!!!!!
Pepe.:)


Glad to hear you're impressed with the results Pepe. I know what you mean about voices in the rears. The thing to remember is that rear channels are not normally meant to be listened to on their own. Part of the magic, or "enchantment" as you call it (nice choice of words :)), is that the surround channels work with phase similarities and differences between sounds in the back and the front to make voices and instruments seem to hang in mid-air. This gives the illusion of depth.

The only way to get true separation is to have a real 5.1 mix where the sounds are mixed to only certain channels. I have seen stereo-to-surround conversion methods that try to simulate this with some pseudo discrete effects. These are occasionally interesting, but most of the time there's some sort of a problem, such as strange warbling aartifacts, voices or sounds coming from weird places, percussion sounds that repeat to do too much delay, etc. What I've tried to do with V.I is present something that sounds like a natural expansion of the original stereo soundfield. It always depends on the source recording, but many stereo recordings have a lot of ambience information in there that gets lost or hidden by the constraints of two channels. Extracting this and presenting it together with the original info is the magic of it all. It only works if all the sounds are there to complement each other.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[Jenri]

Hello, Ursamtl:

Just like I've thinking about. The sense is like if you was inside the group and not behind the people who listen the concert. It's a new sensation.

And, sorry if molesting, but comparing this method with QSXT, the difference is so clear.

The QSXT pursuit the same: maximal width stereoimage and hypercontrol about the levels (methodic control over the balance in all channels). The V.I. method is succeded in these two areas, and also in an automatic manner.

The V.I. seems to preview the performance of the sound and just when it's possible the distortion, just applies the compresion level and there's no trouble. It's amazing the enormous possibilities included to play with him like a toy; we can make like anything...

Today I've noticed about your guides with the companions. These can make very happy to a lot of people. In anybody's name, again, thanks.

See you soon,
Pepe:)

[ursamtl]

Thanks again for the feedback Pepe. Yes, the idea behind V.I is to keep it as simple as possible while still producing a professional result. I've had more than one music industry pro comment to me that V.I works amazingly well in pro software such as Nuendo.

Yes, I'm happy to be able to post the Audition and Wavelab guides. A lot of people have sent me messages over the past year asking if I could adapt V.I to work in these programs and others. I've got several other ideas and plans I'm working with some people on for getting V.I to work with other software, some of it free as well.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[ursamtl]

For those who use Sony Sound Forge and Vegas, you can find a guide written by a member of the www.videhelp.com forum here:

Creating a Pseudo 5.1 Mix from Stereo Source Using V.I. (uses Sound Forge and Vegas) (http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=292142)Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

For those who experienced an error message in Plogue Bidule when opening the layout files that can be installed by the V.I installer program, I've resolved the problem and posted updates. At the same time, I also made slight updates to the manual to mention other host programs that support the V.I plugins, including, Sony Sound Forge and Vegas, as well as Kristal Audio Engine.

I've updated the V.I installer to version 1.11. Since there were no changes necessary to the actualy plugin dll files, for those who just want to download the updated layout files, fxb preset banks, or the updated manual, you can check the V.I web site (http://stevethomson.ca/vi) or download them here: Plogue Bidule layouts (zip, 13.3K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip)
V.I fxb Preset files (zip, 2.21K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/VI_fxbs.zip)
V.I Manual (zip, 315K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/V.I_Manual.zip)Enjoy!
Steve.

[f@chance]

Thanks for the update and it works like a charm. Well Stargate Atlantis finished airing in Canada and no more new episodes until July 16th which means one less upmix.

Thanks for your very excellent efforts Steve.

[ursamtl]

Glad they worked for you. Hey, if you're looking for upmix material, why not convert some of your favorite music CDs to surround CDs. Use a program such as Exact Audio Copy to make a copy of the CD as a wave file with cue file (or individual waves if you wish). Just make sure you leave them at 44.1kHz sampling instead of the 48 for DVDs. Then create AC3WAVE files or DTSWAVE files (depending on which format you're using) then burn them to an audio CD. These are playable in any DVD player that normally plays audio CDs. Providing they go through the digital connection to your receiver, the audio stream tricks your receiver's decoding circuit into thinking it's receiving a DVD soundtrack, so it decodes it to 5.1 surround!

[ursamtl]

You may have read somewhere about CLFE clipping if the source file is greater than 92% (-0.72dB). As is marked throughout the guides here and when you install the V.I Suite, always use a good quality limiter when attempting to convert stereo material to surround. The processes involved in extracting ambience involve subtracting and combining audio waves in such a way that certain frequencies and transients that may have been masked are suddenly uncovered. This applies to any method for converting stereo to surround.

If you carefully manage levels, you can get tremendous results. As Elektra pointed out in the VST plug-ins 5.1 0 6.1 Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113590) thread, V.I preserves the dynamic range of the music better than some other plugins. This is important to producing a good listening experience that expands on what's already there instead of trying to second-guess the recording engineers and artists who mixes the audio in the first place!

I might add that a lot of current music and especially many "remastered" CDs are actually boosted so badly that their dynamic range is ruined. These generally are not good sources for conversion to surround because many of the waveforms have been chopped off. If you must use them, reduce their level a bit first. I know using a limiter on music that has already been compressed seems ridiculous, but in my experiments with this material, I've found that transients are still uncovered when processed through conversion techniques, not only V.I but also others. Use the limiter only to block transients, not compress the music (with the exception of the LFE bass boosting trick I explain in the guide or improving dialog clarity in movies by compressing the C channel. Be careful).

Lately, I've discovered that some of the cleanest and best sources are CDs releases in the early 1980's. Mastering engineers in those days cared more about the quality of the sound than being louder than everyone else. For more information on this, there are several sites. Try the Wikipedia entry for "Loudness War" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war) for a lot of good information and for links to other relevant sites.

In the near future, I intend to update all my guides and provide some new guides for conversion. This will include some that use no shareware or commercial software. I will also include some detailed tips for managing levels and getting the most out of different material to achieve the best results.

Regards,
Steve.

[Elektra999]

I want to comment something Steve, about the Surround Panner.

I have been making some conversions of stereo to Surround 5,1/6,1, in Sony Forge 8, using plug-ins of the V.I (CLFE, FL FR and SL SR.), later in Sony Vegas, have made the conversion in AC3 5,1, have fit the Surround Panner as it indicates the guide (Creating Pseudo Surround) and me to seemed a very good conversion, for audio of a film.

I have used, Plogue with the V.I and with plug-in Extra Boy, acceptable results with the Extra Boy are obtained. For a fan as I am it, it is very difficult, to fit the back channels to me with the Extra Boy to eliminate the voices, and but difficult it is, to fit the tone of the back channels so that, they are looked like the frontal channels.
In Sony Vegas with Surround Panner, it did not seem to me that the sound lost much dynamics. With Surround Panner, I believe that, the tone of each channel can be fit and as well, the voices are not appraised so much by the back channels (SL SR), was to me but simple to use Surround Panner that Extra Boy and with acceptable results but. For that reason I am looking for a VST Surround Panner to work it within Plogue Bidule and V.I/VI.I.

Excuse Steve and if in something I am mistaken, him request that me says it, so that to share she is of wise people and to also rectify.

Thanks...
Elektra999

[Elektra999]

Steve, which treatment to say is, I believe that better civil employee a VST Surround Panner in Plogue, that the Extra Boy.
I prefer to fit the room of loudspeakers, using VST Surround Panner, before to eliminate the voices with Extra Boy and that hear devices

[Elektra999]

Audio 16bis/48000 Original Stereo with Sony Forge 8, processed with Plug-ins V.I (CLFE, FL FR, SL SR)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1619/procesoclfexd1.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2916/procesoflfrqx4.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2545/procesoslsrif7.jpg

Sony Vegas, I have followed the passages of guide Creating Pseudo Surround.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6662/doom9pe6.jpg

01. Surround Panner – Center 100%
02. Surround Panner – FL FR 68%
03. Surround Panner – SL SR 68%

Render As

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6712/sonyvegas01vi9.jpg

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7404/sonyvegas02pp5.jpg

6 independent channels monkey.

Software Encode DTS Pro Series
DTS 5.1

Acceptable results but that

Elektra999

[raquete]

Elektra999,
you are using extra-boy to remove the voice to get the remainder?
maybe i have one better solution because extra-boy is horrible(in my taste).

regards.

[Elektra999]

raquete
What this looking for is a VST Plug-in Surround Panner, when coming out to place it of the V.I in Plogue Bidule, for audio of film. Now I am using Sony Forge and Sony Vegas, so that the Surround Panner seems to me that it goes very well.
That solution you have, to eliminate the voices?

Thanks
Elektra999

[raquete]

i'm testing one new gui that give me center(L-R) and sides(surrounds-center), is not VST Plug-in.
It can read 32-bit WAVs, but only the integer type, not floating point. 24-bit and 8-bit files are supported as well.(not float)
it's based on Avery Lee centercut for virtualdub
have one dsp_centercut too but i'm testing the Gui.
sounds amazing if you want center only and surrounds without center,....i like this way.
if you mix(sum) the center with the surrounds you get the source again because it only extract the channels without change the volume or the general dynamic of the music.(i only encode musics in 5.1,no movies)

Requires .NET Framework v2.0
http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=12627&hl=

regards

[raquete]

@ ursamtl
CLFE clipping if the source file is greater than 92% (-0.72dB).in rare cases when the source is from "loudness war".
don't mind because sources too loud "sounds like clipping",in loudness war nobody win.(you know what i mean...bad source,bad result) ;)

In the near future, I intend to update all my guides and provide some new guides for conversion.near future? :confused:
ah...you're kiddin,we can't only stay here waiting for your cool guides,do that fast please :D

This will include some that use no shareware or commercial software. I will also include some detailed tips for managing levels and getting the most out of different material to achieve the best results. cool! ;)
thanks so much.
:)

[ursamtl]

@ ursamtl
in rare cases when the source is from "loudness war".
don't mind because sources too loud "sounds like clipping",in loudness war nobody win.(you know what i mean...bad source,bad result) ;)
Yes, the loudness war is ruining a lot of otherwise good music. I've started going to used CD stoires and buying old, non-remastered versions of albums. Some of these sound tremendous. For instance, I picked up 80's versions of Led Zeppelin IV and Pink Floyd's the Wall that sound much better than the so-called "remasters." Detailing on the high frequencies, separation, etc., are all better and overall they sound much more natural.

The 92% claim seems a bit bogus to me actually. In my tests, inputting a 100% continuous tone to both CLFE and the full V.I plugins gives only 60% output from the C channel, which is far below clipping. Sounds to me more like someone was trying to gain favor by impressing a forum administrator in another forum than actually provide accurate, constructive criticism that might be useful to us all.

near future? :confused:
ah...you're kiddin,we can't only stay here waiting for your cool guides,do that fast please :D

cool! ;)
thanks so much.
:)

Hey, I gotta have a life sometimes! ;). Seriously, it's summer and I've got a lot of stuff going on right now. I do have some ideas I've been working on for awhile now. These include some updated free guides that use some new software that's become available, some new ways to use existing tools, and even a couple of surprises! Stay tuned! I did mention earlier that I was working on a program that would do it all without a VST host. I still haven't given up on it. I just haven't had time to study the programming required to get the whole thing presentable.

By the way, it looks like you've been having some fun with the centercut software, etc. Why not write us a guide? I'd be happy to add it to the guide list. Elektra has also been doing some interesting work as well and taking the time to post some nice graphics of his work.

I find that these spectral-based plugins have to be carefully adjusted to avoid ruining the overall sound. I've heard upmixes that were supposedly "excellent" but when I listened, they sounded like disembodied lead vocals floating over music so full of warbling, "underwater" artifacts that the whole thing came across like it was run through a cheap freeware reverb plugin set to a preset called "oil tank"!!! I heard a complete massacre of both Elton John's Madman Across the Water and Pink Floyd's Meddle recently. Both actually sounded like the whole album was run through some cheap guitar pedal phase shifter!

This being said, with the proper adjustments and in the hands of someone trying to preserve fidelity not destory it, these spectral-based plugins can be quite useful. If you listen to the demos on the elevayta web site, (the Sade one is stunning) you realize it is possible to do a fairly clean separation, but it has to be adjusted very carefully by someone who really knows how to use the plugin.

Anyway, let us know how how the results turn out.

Regards,
Steve.

[raquete]

Steve,
Why not write us a guide? i can do but with screenshots hosted in imageshack because my english is horrible(you know) :o
is using adobe audition,centercutgui,your CLFE(i use only LFE) and FFt that i mix with LFE to get "bass management".
in lots of music don't have basses in the extremes,this give poor sounds then i sum 15% of the LFE with surrounds.(personal taste).
is very complicated at the first sign and need big patience but the result is amazing in my taste.
i did some "scripts" in audition for automation and it turn the job more friendly.
if you think that is valid i can do that with pleasure. ;)

I picked up 80's versions of Led Zeppelin IV ...sound much better than the so-called "remasters." Detailing on the high frequencies, separation, etc., are all better and overall they sound much more natural.true!
i have all of Led Zep 3 times:
all cds from USA,Germany and Brasil. Germany sounds better but for my big surprise,the LP Led Zep II sounds better than all cds in the music "what is and what should never be".

In my tests, inputting a 100% continuous tone to both CLFE and the full V.I plugins gives only 60% output from the C channel, which is far below clipping. as i told you,it happens in rare cases(hard to find),here is one:
Paul McCartney- Off the Ground.this cd have too much center channel and few surround then is the first music get 2 or 3 little clips because the cd is too loud.CLFE is not guilty...the source is "dangerous".
when the source is not so loud and have better surround it never happen.

best regards!

[Elektra999]

The Surround Panner, much more seems easy to fit to me that the Extra Boy, although also is something difficult.
But I think that, with some VST Surround Panner placed in Plogue when coming out of the V.I/VI.I, the conversion comes out well, for audio of films:

it does not cause devices, when I listen to the results in my home cinema 5.1/6.1, the voices are not appraised sBut I think that, with some VST Surround Panner placed in Plogue when coming out of the V.I/VI.I, the conversion comes out well, for audio of films: o much by the back channels, is as if the voices were back but, listening to better the sound effect of the film, and not touching so much the dynamics of the sound.


If I have CD-Audio or DVD-Audio with a good recording, I do the following thing:
For audio musical comedy, I make the conversion in Plogue with V.I/VI.I and Encoder DTS Pro Series and to run. At least the original recording is touched better, if the complica thing is a bad recording, then attempt to extend the stereo image before the V.I with some VST (Jenri, was the one who tube this idea AND SEEMS to ME BRILLIANT: -)

For English bad, mine jajajajaja

[Elektra999]

Story a secret, I translate of English to Spanish with text translators. I am learning English, but jajaja costs to me much.

:)

[Elektra999]

If they necisitan my aid, to make guide or any other thing… I make it enchanted.

To is CD-Audio de Evanescence Bring Me to .life, I made the conversion in DTS 6,1, with VI.I in Plogue and Encoder DTS Pro Series, best CD DTS 6,1 than I have done in my life, so that it is a good stereo original recording.

Regards

Elektra999

[ursamtl]

I'm happy to mention that Elektra999 has tested V.I and VI.I in Sony Sound Forge 9 and he has reported that they work perfectly. Here's a link to his post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=990294#post990294).

[ursamtl]

Just thought I'd throw in an update for those who might have problems with Vegas 7 not recognizing V.I or other VST plugins. One V.I user has reported to me that once he uninstalled V.I and re-installed it afterwards, everything worked perfectly.

[Elektra999]

Hello, cubase 4 is where I have problems with V.I click (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1022891#post1022891)

[Elektra999]

Ursamlt
You have to make the VII.I 7.1, for my next encoder, DTS HD Master Audio :D:D:D

[ursamtl]

Ursamlt
You have to make the VII.I 7.1, for my next encoder, DTS HD Master Audio :D:D:DHehe. The winter is coming so I'll have some time then. :)

[Elektra999]

It is a joke Steve ;) but if to ask him, that, when it could, ¿would it help me to solve the problem of Cubase 4 and V.I?

DTS HD Master Audio, will not be in Spain, up to spring of 2008

Thanks

[Elektra999]

I believe that in Cubase 4, is updated, to use, the VST plug-ins versions 3 or 4, for this reason, believe that V.I does not work.

¿V.I is a version 2 or 3 of VST Plug-ins?

[jriker1]

So I have a 2 channel stereo WAV file opened in Sound Forge 9. So 1 and 2 blue and in use as front left and right. I can play these two independently and see which one is left and right, but even that is not readily apparent visually. I set the project to 5.1 so now have 3 and 4 in pink and 5 and 6 in yellow for future audio containers.

I use V.I. Suite to make this 5.1. So now 1,2,3,4,5,6 all have some level of audio in them. So I can tell which is left and right between 1,2 and 3,4 and 5,6, however how do you determine which is front right/left, center, read right/left and LFE?

Is there some order to the madness on how it outputs things?

Thanks.

JR