V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter VST Plugin Suite

[ursamtl]

V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter VST Plugin Suite
http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI.jpg
V.I is a 2-input, 6-output VST plugin that converts a two-channel stereo input to a six channel output in 5.1 format.

Also included: fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR are 2-in/2-out VST plugins duplicating V.I’s effects in channel pairs in VST hosts that do not support 2-in/6-out multichannel plugins: fLfR duplicates V.I’s front channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/fLfR.jpg CLFE duplicates V.I’s Center and LFE channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/CLFE.jpg sLsR duplicates V.I’s rear surround channels: http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/sLsR.jpg
(Note: the plugin “II” that was distributed with Beta versions of V.I has been replaced by sLsR.)

Contents of This Guide
Features
New Plogue Bidule Layouts
Required Software
Using V.I with Plogue Bidule
Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX Or Nuendo
Using V.I with audio editing programs or players
V.I Web Site
Feedback

Features
These plugins server as a follow-up to the original V.I bidule layout and incorporates several improvements. Here are some of its notable features.
Width correction helps compensate for source files that were mixed too narrow or too wide.
Independent controls for adding ambience to the front or rear soundstage.
Pass-through of original left and right signals ensures accurate reproduction of original stereo imaging (when not in Movie Mode).
Companion fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR VST plugins duplicate V.I’s effects in channel pairs in VST hosts that do not support multichannel plugins such as V.I (Guide coming VERY soon)
Movie Mode switch redirects some dialog frequencies from front left and right channels to the center channel to enhance dialog while still maintaining a good stereo soundstage.
On/off control for A-B monitoring of effect.
Switchable LFE channel.
V.I has been tested in various multichannel hosts such as Plogue Bidule, Audiomulch, Sound Forge 9, and Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo versions 2.x or later. The 2-in/2-out fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR plugins have been tested successfully in Adobe Audition 1.5-2.0, Steinberg Wavelab 5.0, Kristal Audio Engine, Cakewalk Sonar 5 Producer Edition, and Sony Vegas 6.V.I is a VST plugin designed to convert a stereo input to a 5.1 audio output. You can then encode this data into a surround sound file using appropriate software.

V.I cannot go back into a recording studio and separate the original multitrack audio into separate channels, but it can extract ambience information embedded in the stereo audio and redistribute it among 5.1 channels for playback on home theater equipment capable of decoding surround sound information. Recording engineers, audio engineers and enthusiasts have been doing this kind of thing for years in one way or another. V.I simply combines some of their techniques in one VST plugin.

Yeah but isn't V.I just "double stereo" with some filters
No, V.I is not just "double stereo." I'll get technical for a minute. To ensure a stable soundstage, V.I starts with the original front left and right channels from the stereo source file, but then it builds on them with a combination of crosstalk cancellation and second-order Ambisonics for the front ambience. Try the slider called Front Ambience and see how you like it. Even without any rear channels, the sound on some recordings seems to jump out of the speakers and take on a life of its own! For the rear surrounds, V.I extracts ambience using a modified second-order Ambisonic approach. In fact, inside the V.I plugin, there are over 300 software connections similar to the kinds you would find in modular programs such as Plogue Bidule, Audiomulch, etc. This may sound complicated but the result is a smooth, natural surround effect.

As for filters, there are only two: one for the LFE if you choose to use it, another for Movie Mode, again if you choose to use it. Any other sound that seems to be filtered is just the natural result of proven Ambisonic techniques.

If you have a computer with a 5.1 soundcard and speakers, try listening to music going through V.I and then switch it off and on a couple of times using the button on the plugin. Whenever you turn V.I on, notice how the instruments and sounds seem to remain in basically the same place but suddenly become three-dimensional as if you were standing in the room with them.

Required Software
You can download V.I VST Suite here (3.8MB):

V.I Suite Installer ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.exe) or V.I Suite Zip file ( http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI_Setup.zip)

IMPORTANT#1: This installer automatically checks your PC's registry for the current shared VST Plugins folder and defaults to installing the plugin in this folder. Be sure the VST host program you use (Plogue Bidule, Cubase, Nuendo, etc.) is set to read this directory. If your system does not have a default VST directory, the V.I Suite installer will place the files in a subdirectory of your Program Files folder called "V.I Suite." Of course, you can change this during the installation to whatever destination you wish.

IMPORTANT#2: The process of extracting ambience from a stereo recording can result in files that occasionally contain transient peaks exceeding 0dB, resulting in distorted sound. If your playback levels are too high, you may damage your equipment, and at the very least end up with a distorted file. Always use a limiter on the V.I, fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR outputs. These plugins are free to use at your own risk. The author of the V.I Suite plugins, Steve Thomson, assumes no responsibility for any damage as a result of their use or misuse.

Don't let this warning dissuade you, just be careful with your levels and follow directions.

Using V.I with Plogue Bidule
For Plogue Bidule users, I’ve created three Bidule layouts for V.I on its own, or with additional reverb effects for the rear channels. The V.I Suite installation program prompts you at the end to install these layout files if you have Plogue Bidule. If you don't currently have Bidule but intend to get it at some point, you can still install the layouts anyway. The installer will place them in your V.I Suite support files directory.

All three layouts feature a “5.1 OUTPUT” group that implements two essential tools used by professional sound engineers, dithering for converting output files to 16-bit format, and limiting to prevent clipping. You'll also need to install additional files available from other third-party sites. For links to the files and instructions, see:
GUIDE: Using V.I with Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=570433#post570433).
Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX Or Nuendo
To use V.I with Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo versions 2.x or later, see: GUIDE: Using the V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter in Nuendo and Cubase SX (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85694).
Using V.I with audio editing programs or players
GUIDE: Using Adobe Audition 1.5 or 2.0 to create 5.1 files (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106500)
GUIDE: Using Wavelab to create 5.1 files (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106494)
GUIDE: Converting stereo to 5.1 surround for FREE (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=105684) (uses Foobar2000 combined with Winamp plugins)

V.I guides on Other Sites
Creating a Pseudo 5.1 Mix from Stereo Source Using V.I. (uses Sound Forge and Vegas) (http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=292142)

V.I Web Site
For instructions on using the V.I controls, see the manual PDF that's installed with the software or check out the V.I web site (http://stevethomson.ca/vi).

Feedback
If you have any questions or comments about V.I or its companion plugins, please feel free to contact UrsaMtl (http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=56838).

Happy surrounding!
UrsaMtl

[ursamtl]

GUIDE: Using V.I with Plogue Bidule

Additional Required Software
In addition to the V.I Plugin Suite (http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VI-II.zip), you'll also need the following:

Plogue Bidule (http://www.plogue.com)
V.I VST Bidule Layouts (http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip) (included with the V.I Suite installation program)
mda Dither (http://mda.smartelectronix.com/effects.htm)
Classic Master Limiter (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php)

If you want to try the two layouts with reverb, you’ll need the following two VST plugins:

Classic Reverb (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/)
SIR (http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html)

For free, top-quality reverb impulse responses, check out Noisevault (http://www.noisevault.com)

New Plogue Bidule Layouts
Three new Plogue Bidule layouts allow you to use V.I on its own, or
with additional reverb effects for the rear channels.

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/layout.jpg

On its own, V.I allows you to extract a lot of the existing ambience in a stereo recording. However, if you have a source file with
minimal ambience, or if you just want a more expansive, ambient soundfield, you can use either of the following:

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/VIclassicreverblayout.gif
Bidule Layout with Classic Reverb

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/ViSIRlayout.gif
Bidule Layout with SIR (if you want to try impulse responses)

About the 5.1 OUTPUT Bidule Group

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/51output.gif

The 5.1 OUTPUT bidule group provides you with a way of adjusting the final 5.1 outputs from V.I so that you'll get the most professional sounding conversion possible. It uses two freeware VST plugins, the Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter and Maxim Digital Audio's mda dither, to provide you with the same kind of tools that professionals using commercial programs use to ensure top-quality mixes.

Limiting
A limiter works by detecting any volume peak that exceeds a preset threshold and limiting or reducing the peak so that it stays below the threshold. The 5.1 OUTPUT bidule group features four instances of, Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter to prevent any levels from overloading in the digital file and clipping the sound. One instance limits the L and R outputs, another is dedicated to the C channel, a third acts solely on the LFE channel, and a fourth limits the surround L and R. If you leave all controls to the right, only the occasional peaks that exceed a threshold of -0.2dB are reduced. Everything below that level remains unchanged, thereby ensuring transparent sound. Professional sound engineers use limiting all the time for this very reason.

Using limiting creatively
With a bit of careful adjustment (that means not too much!), you can even use the limiter on the LFE channel to tighten up the bass, or the limiter on the center channel to provide a form of rudimentary dialog clarity for movie soundtracks. This is because reducing the threshold value causes the limiter to boost the level of all sound waves below the threshold by a corresponding amount. In other words, if you set the threshold to -2dB, all the audio waves in the track are boosted by 2dB. However, since the limiter does not allow anything to go higher than the threshold level, you are actually compressing the sound. Now, this can be bad (especially if you're a purist!), or this can give you a tool for improving the sound of your surround mix, providing you use the control carefully and with restraint! For example, if you reduce the threshold on the LFE channel, you effectively boost the deep bass level but without over-loading it. If you reduce the threshold level on the C channel, you can even out the difference be-tween the quiet and loud passages of dialog in a movie so that it's easier to understand. You can also lower the threshold on the front or surround left and right channels to give the overall mix a bit more of a sense of punch.

Be careful with any of these controls, giving them more than a quarter to a third of a their range (or a half for the LFE channel) can reduce the dynamic range of the music and result in a kind of distortion that will ruin the sound of the resulting surround mix. In fact, this is a problem with a lot of modern com-mercial recordings. Many speak of something called the "loudness race." Different record companies try to make their product sound louder with the idea that it will sound more attractive. The result can sometimes be really horrible! Remember, It's not about being the loudest, it's about sounding good! When used properly, these controls can give your surround project a more professional sound.

Dithering
The other main feature in the 5.1 OUTPUT group is dithering. All internal processing in Plogue Bidule oc-curs at 32 bits. A standard 16-bit stereo file is automatically converted to 32-bit floating-point format (if the file is already 32-bit, then it's passed through without modification). It's well known that if you down-sample a digital file from 32- to 16-bit format, you need to apply something called dithering to avoid audible artifacts. The simple 32-bit output file? checkbox in the 5.1 OUTPUT group toggles the dithering on or off. If the box is checked, the output will remain a 32-bit file and no dithering is needed. If you clear the box, then the dithering plugins (three instances to cover all six channels) are automatically turned on.
Important: you still have to set the output file format on Bidule's Audio File Recorder. The 32-bit output file? checkbox in the 5.1 OUTPUT group is set up in the layouts I've provided to turn the Audio File Re-corder to 24 bits, (Bidule's parameter linking mechanism didn't provide a way to switch to 32-bit files). The difference between a 24-bit file and a 32-bit file is minimal and basically inaudible.

Unless file space is a real issue, you should try to leave your files in at least 24-bit format. Saving to a 32-bit file will provide no advantage with the currently available encoding software since it outputs 24-bit files only.

Step-By-Step Instructions
For a detailed, step-by-step guide for conversion using Bidule-based methods, see Step-by-Step Instructions for Plogue Bidule-based Stereo-to-Surround methods (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83844). At Step 4 in that guide, be sure to load the V.I VST layout you wish to use and adjust the controls as explained in the V.I manual.

[daphy]

WOW!

Hey Steve, now I now why you are that bussy this days :D :D :D
I will host those files this afternoon!

All three Bidule layouts feature a new “5.1 outputs” group that implements two essential tools used by profes-sional sound engineers, dithering for converting output files to 16-bit format, and limiting to prevent clipping.

nice :D

One request, can you please add some detailed screenshots for Nuendo usage, I´ll guess using this app is not that easy for most of those guys :D

I hope my wife gives me that spare time to check this out extensively ... ;)

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy WOW!

Hey Steve, now I now why you are that bussy this days :D :D :D
I will host those files this afternoon!

Thanks. Yes, busy with this along with everything else.

Originally posted by daphy One request, can you please add some detailed screenshots for Nuendo usage, I´ll guess using this app is not that easy for most of those guys :D

I hope my wife gives me that spare time to check this out extensively ... ;)
I don't have Nuendo myself but a friend who tested V.I and II in Nuendo is going to give me screen grabs in the next few days. Once I have them, I'll add them to the thread.

As for your wife, maybe you might try converting some of her favorite music to 5.1, and perhaps buy her some flowers and chocolates. :)

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

By the way, I'm also going to be posting directions for using the II plugin in Adobe Audition in the near future. If anyone has any experiences to share, please feel free to contact me.

Steve.

[DSP8000]

This is the best stereo to surround conversion method that I've heard so far.
Lots of choices,options,VST hosts...
The Nuendo conversion is not that simple as described but works.
OctoMaxx does sound sort of like stereo limiter if it's not controled in the 5.1 bus.
IMHO I preffer the Bidule layouts.
Once again you prove that there are some realy talented people here.
Good work Steve.
Oh, can you please post your Nuendo layout(work template) and VST presets.

Thanks again

DSP8000

[ursamtl]

Thanks for the feedback! Yes, the Nuendo method is difficult to sum up in a few words. Once I have the Nuendo screen grabs and info, I'll post as much as I can. I agree that OctoMaxx or any limiter can color the sound if one doesn't exercise restraint with the controls. Still, I like putting a brick wall there to prevent clipping.

I also like Bidule for its flexibility. It can be downright addictive to sit down and start playing with it!

Steve.

[daphy]

@ all

Needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org) is fixed and updated and contains the full package in one file!

THX Steve

CYA Daphy

[ursamtl]

Links added. Thanks Daphy!

[dani82]

@Eye of Horus

forum rule #4

how can you be mocking him, what gives you the right to judge his' works.

as for DSP8000, if you think there's a better guide, point him to it, instead of calling him igorant (pretty much imply)

if you're really leaving, bit of advice:

the earth isn't round, it's oval.

[ursamtl]

Using V.I in Steinberg Cubase SX or Nuendo
The latest versions of Steinberg Cubase SX and Nuendo offer professional multichannel audio production and support for multichannel VST plugins such as V.I VST.

For more information, see the separate thread GUIDE: Using the V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter in Nuendo and Cubase (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85694).

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,
I guess I'm doing something wrong but the output of V.I.VST SIR is 6ch silent wav. It's not all zeroes but when I open it with SoftEncode I've got 6 flat lines. I did try Offline mode as well as 16, 32 and 24 bit outputs. Any ideas?

As a sanity check I've tried other modules (5.1SAD, VoiceCenter) and got nice 6ch waves.

It looks like some VST are not thound but I did unpack your distribution.

Thanks in adavnce for help or suggestions!

I'm answering your post in this thread since the other thread is for the old V.I. It makes more sense to discuss the problem you're having here so that others who might have the problemw will find the answer more easily.

I just checked the distribution file that Daphy put together and posted on Needfulthings. It installs the VST plugins in the default Plogue Bidule VSTPlugins folder. However, if you happen to have some other setup, you may have to transfer some files yourself.

The following files need to be in the folder set in Bidule's VST Plugins path, which you can access by choosing Preferences from Bidule's Edit menu.

VI.dll
Classic Reverb.dll
Classic Master Limiter.dll
II.dll
mda Dither.dll
SIR_1008.dll

This is in Plogue Bidule 0.700. If you still have the old version, be sure to go to www.plogue.com right away and download the new version. The old one expires tomorrow. This new one takes a bit of getting used to since the interface and window handling has changed, but I've tested it and had no problems.

Also, don't forget to download an appropriate impulse response from www.noisevault.com or elsewhere to use in SIR.

Let me know if this resolves your problem.

Steve.

[oayz]

Ursamtl,

Thanks for speedy reply. I wonder where do you get time to play with the sound if you always online? :-)

Anyway, it still doesn't work but I think I'm getting closer to the problem. Browsing V.I. VST bidule and putting Primary Sound Driver(out) at diffrent places I found where the signal get lost. It is Classic Master Limiter. Inside there are 4 identical 2in/2out blocks. There is a signal at the input and there none at the output.

Since I'm not a master of biduling (yet :) I stuck. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[daphy]

I just checked the distribution file that Daphy put together and posted on Needfulthings. It installs the VST plugins in the default Plogue Bidule VSTPlugins folder. However, if you happen to have some other setup, you may have to transfer some files yourself.

It´s the default setting but you can use another path -> the complete VST-Pack installs in <progams>\steinberg\vstplugin so every one can use these VSTs with Nuendo or what ever!(also you have certainly the choice to use the plogue bidule path or any other path)

@oayz
my experiences are the same no output after bidule -> only empty 6WAVs(I also notified Ursamtl by PM) :(

@Ursamtl
are sure that nothing´s missing. Maybe in your major setup you have further VSTs avaible :rolleyes:

@all
some of you guys managed to make these VSTs work - what have done diffrent as we did :confused:

Also, don't forget to download an appropriate impulse response from www.noisevault.com or elsewhere to use in SIR.
I guess this theme needs another guide, SIR is not that easy to use, so a seperate thread on using it will be recommended! :rolleyes:

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,

Thanks for speedy reply. I wonder where do you get time to play with the sound if you always online? :-)

Anyway, it still doesn't work but I think I'm getting closer to the problem. Browsing V.I. VST bidule and putting Primary Sound Driver(out) at diffrent places I found where the signal get lost. It is Classic Master Limiter. Inside there are 4 identical 2in/2out blocks. There is a signal at the input and there none at the output.

Since I'm not a master of biduling (yet :) I stuck. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for giving me this feedback since it helped me track down a serious omission on my part. Somewhere in posting or editing my guide, the link to Kjaerhus Audio's fine Classic Master Limiter plugin got deleted. In turn, since Daphy didn't have it when he packaged the all-in-one distribution, anyone installing from it would have problems with the bidule layouts. I apologize if this oversight caused anyone to waste a lot of time.

Just go to http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php and download the plugin then install it in the folder set in Bidule's VST Plugins path, which you can access by choosing Preferences from Bidule's Edit menu.

Once this is in place, you should be good to go!

I've added the link to the bidule part of the guide and removed the all-in-one link until Daphy gets time to update his installer.

By the way, for those of you with problems using the bidule layout, Oayz used exactly the right technique here for troubleshooting. If a checkmark appears next to Offline Processing in the Edit menu, click on it to clear the checkmark. Then in Bidule's Palette, expand Audio Devices, choose one of the Output devices and click and drag it onto your workspace. (If you have an ASIO multichannel output, use it. If not, use the Microsoft Sound Mapper under MME). Next, connect outputs from different modules and groups throughout the signal flow to the output device until you find the module giving problems.

Hoping this helps,
Steve.

[daphy]

okay, needfulthings is fixed!

[oayz]

Ursamtl and Daphy,

Thanks for quick help. I new I was missing something :-) BTW, I don't think it's your fault. Bidule can and should be able to report missing groups or dlls. Seems like you know Bidule's author very well, maybe you can suggest him this new feature.

One other thing bothers me. I never sure if I got channel assignment right. I read guides, look on the waveforms, audit them but still. Is there any way to have a "test mode" to help in channel identification? Or maybe a test file?

Back to sounds!

[daphy]

what kind of test file do you need?
there are several diffrent one on the @ndy´s FTP Server (ftp://daphy.mine.nu) ;)

[ursamtl]

I know in the old version of Bidule, a group that was missing a VST would display in a different color, but I haven't had time to test this with the new version yet or to see if it's still the case when the VST is part of a nested group (a group within a group).

As for channel assignments, a test sound would be a good thing, yes. I'll try to implement it in the next version of V.I as a button that sends a short white noise pulse to each channel.

In the meantime, the assignments are L, R, C, LFE, sL, sR. I know when you load a 6-channel file produced with one of the V.I Bidule layouts into SoftEncode, the channels are not correctly assigned by default. This is because SoftEncode is a few years old and follows an older standard. It's easy using the icons in SoftEncode to re-assign the channels and I think having to do this is good as it forces one to review the channels at that point. For example, if there is sound in the LFE channel, it will look much less active than the others, so if it's not in the fourth channel from the top, there's a problem. You could always customize a bidule layout by resaving it under a different name and then routing the outputs to suit your needs.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[oayz]

Test file to allow me to identify each channel. Ideally after the processing it would say "left","right","center" etc. in particular channel or at least "beep" there. Currently when I get my 6 channels out I never sure how they are assigned. What if I have FR swapped with RL? Right now I use a 2ch wav with distinctive left, right and center then match it with 5ch out, try to make a guess and compare with what is specified in the guide.

When I get more familiar with Bidule I'll trace signals in the layout and find the actuall channel assignment but it would be much easier if we could incorporate it as a part of the tool.

BTH, based on the number of questions related to channel ID it a pretty common problem especially considering that people use different tools to open 6ch wav.

Please don't consider it as request or something. It's just an idea and I'll try to find a solution on my own.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
I'll try to implement it in the next version of V.I as a button that sends a short white noise pulse to each channel.
....
It's easy using the icons in SoftEncode to re-assign the channels
...

I do exactly this in SoftEncode. Though detecting LFE is obvious and center is usually not a problem L,R,sL,SR are pretty much the same and easy to confuse. You idea with pink noise would work just need to standartirize the sequence of chennels it goes to.

[daphy]

yep,

the final VST-Plugin fixes all problems!

Steve, your THE man!

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy
yep,

the final VST-Plugin fixes all problems!

Steve, your THE man!

Thanks. How did you like the resulting surround sound?

[ursamtl]

Hi folks,

Just to let you know I created a new installation routine for V.I using an installer utility. This program checked your registry for the current shared VST Plugins folder on your system and defaults to installing V.I and II in that folder. Be sure your VST host program (Bidule, Nuendo, Cubase, etc.) is set to read that folder.

You can download either a self-extracting .exe file or a zip file, from the updated links in the first message of this thread. As for the 3rd-party plugins, please download these from their respective sites or from Daphy's all-in-one install.


Regards,
Steve.

[oayz]

Ursamtl,

You were right - Bidule does highlight missing DLLs. In my setup they are red while others are greyish blue. I just had no idea what did this highlighting mean - that would save some grief for me and you.

I did a brief test of V.I.VST and found its sound very pleasing. One thing did bothered me though - the "center" sound isn't actually removed from Left and Right. Any particular reason or it's just hard to do right? It's not a big problem but we won't benefit of having center anchored - it's position will depend on the position of the listener.

In any case - thanks for the great stuff. Now I don't have to think about capturing 6ch output of my reciever :-)

[daphy]

Hi again,

yesterday I only did one small test (it was too late :( and I had to pick up my wife from the station) but this one sounds really good!
I guess I also have to play with the center settings, in my example the center was too dominat in comparision with FL/FR :o

Nice new installer, I will check it out and host it after work!

Steve, is it possible to make some screen shots about the hanlding of SIR? I will host some impuls file then, too. I guess SIR is for the most user a barrier (for me to because of the lack of time) which could be easy to clime with some tiny guide :D

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Ursamtl,

You were right - Bidule does highlight missing DLLs. In my setup they are red while others are greyish blue. I just had no idea what did this highlighting mean - that would save some grief for me and you.

I did a brief test of V.I.VST and found its sound very pleasing. One thing did bothered me though - the "center" sound isn't actually removed from Left and Right. Any particular reason or it's just hard to do right? It's not a big problem but we won't benefit of having center anchored - it's position will depend on the position of the listener.

In any case - thanks for the great stuff. Now I don't have to think about capturing 6ch output of my reciever :-)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, the center isn't removed. I could have implemented one of the LCR approaches that were posted here (with text for two of the three approaches originally written by Mike Miles and posted to the SurSound mailing list on Jan. 9, 2004). The problem I see with these is that they assume that the center speaker is of equal quality to the left and right speakers. In many cases, this is not so. Obviously, a subwoofer will help fix deep bass problems, but high-frequency imaging and detail, especially in music, could be completely mangled by removing all central information and sending it through a center speaker that may not be equal to the left and right. There is also the issue that one of the three LCR approaches is patented.

Nonetheless, I am thinking of implementing some sort of switchable center extraction control in my next major rev of V.I.

For now, the center is extracted the traditional way by summing the stereo channels and reducing the level by half. I also added a high pass filter to remove any deep bass since many center speakers usually can't handle it as well.

By the way, you might try moving the limiter threshold for the center channel to the left. This will compress the center channel and boost its overall level (by boosting the quieter sounds) without distorting. Doing so might help give you more of sense of separation and dialog clarity. Don't go too far with this (no more than the halfway point) or it'll make the center sound boxy.

Ciao,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by daphy
Hi again,

yesterday I only did one small test (it was too late :( and I had to pick up my wife from the station) but this one sounds really good!
I guess I also have to play with the center settings, in my example the center was too dominat in comparision with FL/FR :o

Nice new installer, I will check it out and host it after work!

Steve, is it possible to make some screen shots about the hanlding of SIR? I will host some impuls file then, too. I guess SIR is for the most user a barrier (for me to because of the lack of time) which could be easy to clime with some tiny guide :D

Glad to see you put the wife before your surround experiments! That's how it should be. :)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I'd recommend reducing the center level a bit if it sounds too prominent. You could also make sure the limiter threshold setting for the C channel is set to the far right to elminate compression or boosting. Check my answer to Oayz's message concerning center for more discussion of the center.

Using SIR in a basic way is actually quite simple, but I'll try to put something up on the weekend. Obviously, you can do a lot with its controls but the main thing is to load a good impulse, turn off the autogain button and adjust to suit your preference. One thing to remember when using SIR is that the other channels need something called delay compensation. SIR introduces a delay of 8960 samples (about 203milliseconds), so the channels not going through SIR need to be delayed by the same amount. That's what the delay compensation group is for in my bidule layout.

Ciao
Steve.

[ursamtl]

This message is to let all forum readers know that I've updated the Bidule layouts for V.I that you can download at http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip.

In my tests with the new version of Plogue Bidule, I noticed that when opening these layouts, which I created in Bidule v.6602, the patchbay would shrink to a tiny window behind the other windows. I worked with the folks at Plogue to fix this bug and found it was just one geometry setting that needed changing.

I've also updated the images in this thread to reflect the new version of Bidule. I'm currently working on an installer that will automatically install all plugins and layouts in their proper locations according to how the software is installed on individual computers. For now, simply upzip the layouts and place them in your Plogue Bidule "layouts" folder.

Regards and belated happy Thanksgiving to our American forum members.
Steve.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
... Yes, the center isn't removed ... The problem I see with these is that they assume that the center speaker is of equal quality to the left and right speakers. In many cases, this is not so ... For now, the center is extracted the traditional way by summing the stereo channels and reducing the level by half. I also added a high pass filter to remove any deep bass since many center speakers usually can't handle it as well

Hi Steve!
Sorry for a delay - holydays as you've already noticed. Thanks for you suggestions. Compressing voice (center) does work well. Still have to try playing with SIR.

In regards of removing center. IMHO, most of us have balanced home theater systems where center is matched with L/R. You can't get decent DVD expirience without this. Or is it only in US? Of cause it doesn't mean the center is as capable as normal speaker - usually it starts at 60Hz and in case of small sattellite system - at 120Hz. However I don't think you should HPF anything. AC3 decoder knows speaker configuration and does it for us. We only need to separate LFE.

The problem with your center channel approach C=(L+R)/2 as you probable aware of is that is reduces front image. If the sound is located exactly at L then we will have C=L/2. That would effectively move the sound from L to 1/3 between L and C. I shouldn't say it's a problem - it's actually a good compromise used by many of the shelf recivers. The advantage - it allows to keep L/R channels unchanged. In any case if shorten front image is a problem we can always widen it, can't we?

Separating center isn't trivial and can always result is some distortions. I probably will stick with your current method.

[ursamtl]

I'm glad to hear the compression worked for you. Compression has a bad reputation because it's frequently overused, especially on the entire mix of many commercial release lately. However, when used carefully, sparingly, and for the right reasons, it can be quite effective.

You're right that with a balanced and matched system, any modification to the center channel should be unnecessary. Unfortunately, many systems are not balanced. If one buys a dedicated 5.1 package with matching speakers, it's fine. However, many buy really good front L-R speakers and then add on the other channels. Depending on the choice of speaker for the latter, the results can vary. By the way, the AC3 decoder doesn't do anything to the five channels it processes other than routing the signals. It doesn't filter their sound in any way. According to the Dolby spec, AC3 includes five full-range channels and a sixth channel for LFE.

I've experimented with several different approaches and I found that they all do a nice job of spreading two channels across three, but when I turn the center off, I realize that the center is carrying too much of the "load" for reproducing the soundstage.

However, my experiments have been focused more on music than movie soundtracks. The effect I just mentioned of having the center with much of the sound, may actually be desirable for a soundtrack with most of the dialog in center and then the rest of the soundtrack in the background. This is why I'm thinking of adding such a circuit to V.I and having a sort of Movie/Music mode toggle. This wouldn't be the same implementation as Dolby Pro Logic II. It would instead focus more on the dialog separation aspect.

To get the most out of SIR, I recommend you explore some of the impulse downloads at www.noisevault.com. With the right set of impulses, the results can be stunning. I'm going to try to get a SIR guide ready for later today.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[ursamtl]

I just completed a self-executing Shockwave demo of using SIR with V.I in the Plogue Bidule layout.

You can download it here. (http://www.vdn.ca/~ursamtl/siruse.exe) (841KB).

This shows the basic setup. You can also check the short help instructions that come with SIR.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[oayz]

Originally posted by ursamtl
... the AC3 decoder doesn't do anything to the five channels it processes other than routing the signals. It doesn't filter their sound in any way. According to the Dolby spec, AC3 includes five full-range channels and a sixth channel for LFE ...
Not sure if it's a part of Dolby spec but most recivers allows to specify so called "size" of the speakers - small/large. I beleieve for "small" a receiver routes more low frequencies to subwoofer (starting from 120Hz vs. 80Hz for "large"). Also at least my reciever Onkyo TX-DS676 allows to enable/disable front/rear/center/sub. If speaker is disabled its signal is properly routed to the rest.

[daphy]

Using SIR, a shockwave demo
I just completed a self-executing Shockwave demo of using SIR with V.I in the Plogue Bidule layout.

You can download it here. (841KB).

This shows the basic setup. You can also check the short help instructions that come with SIR.


THX

I guess this guide is the missing part of the puzzle :D

I will upload the guide this afternoon!

[DSP8000]

First of all, Steve thx. for the screen grabs and all your information about the new V.I. :)
I had some probs with my forum account and I couldn't post for 5 days. :(
@ The "Hearing Expert" EOH
You just don't deserve my time, and just for your information I have MASTER OF DEGREE in music performing arts (sax & clarinet) so whatever I can hear for you is just a fantasy.
If you read my reply you'll see that this is MY opinion and you or anyone else don't have to agree with me on that subject.
Steve, sorry for posting here this but I just had to.
One more question, what SIR impulse responces would you reccomend?
I use Lexicon rooms,plates,halls.
Thx. again

DSP8000

[ursamtl]

Hi DSP,

Glad you found the info and grabs useful. I find this whole thing quite fascinating at times and it's a joy to be able to share it with others. One reason I put the on/off button on V.I was because it never ceases to amaze me just how much detail and three-dimensionality is hidden inside music I've listened to for years. Switching the plugin off and on a few times really brings this point home. Depending on the routing in a bidule layout, it's possible to do this same thing by switching processing to bypass, but it only works if the resulting bypassed routing restores a regular flow of stereo through the front speakers.

The Lexicon impulses are a good choice. The noisevault forum has a vote-based rating system that I find quite helpful for avoiding the bad impulses. My experience has been that the 7/10 or higher impulses are generally quite good. Check out some of the "real space" impulses. There are some nice ones available.

Impulses can really add a nice sense of space, especially to recordings that seem dry. For instance, I was experimenting the other evening with tracks Steel Dan's Gaucho album. The recording is tremendously pristine but quite dry. V.I by itself tended to simply wrap the sounds around me. The instruments had more body and definition, but adding a reverb impulse to the surrounds gave the whole thing an extra sense of space and seemed to help background vocals really breathe.

Regards,
Steve.

[joseartur]

HELLO
i need your help, i try to load the plugin "VI.dll" in VST folder of
Steinberg Clean, but d`ont work, only the "II.dll" appears in the program, can you help-me ?
my version of the Steinberg Clean is 4.0
thanks

[daphy]

maybe steinberg clean won´t recognize this file because it can´t use it? :confused:

[ursamtl]

The V.I plugin only works in VST hosts that support a completely multichannel signal path such as Plogue Bidule, AudioMulch, Steinberg Cubase or Nuendo 2.x or higher. For programs that don't support V.I, the II plugin will give you the left and right surround output that you would get from V.I.

Regards,
Steve.

[Tantulus]

Ursamtl:

I have been experimenting with Audtion 1.5 using convolving VST's and would glad to be of assistance with that aspect of your project. Also, I am really pleased to see the interest in SIR and noisevault. Perhaps the most important parameter for emulating space is reverb. A bit of advice to those trying to chose IR's. Always check the jewel case to see if the recording venue is noted. That way you can get a better match to the original ambience of the recording, leaving the results less muddy.

Tantulus

[ursamtl]

I've also noted that Noisevault specifies the bit depth of the impulses. I've been working with the set recorded at the Concertgebouw at 24 bits. I used a recording of the rear reverb from the point of view of a mike placed front center. I loaded this into SIR and used it to treat the surrounds coming out of V.I on a classic rock album (Led Zeppelin I). I used the length adjustment in SIR to tame the long reverb tail somewhat so as not to detract from the front. V.I already extracts the reverb in the original recording so leaving the full tail in place led to too much reverb on the back to the point where it detracted from the front soundstage. With the shortened reverb tail, the whole thing ended up sounding very natural sounding with a truly three-dimensional sound. I used the new version of HeadAC3he to create a 48kHz AC3 version and the resulting file was 145MB for the entire album! Through time, I intend to create DVDs of my favorite albums. I'll scan the album artwork, etc., to create visual stills and then mux this with the audio to create surround DVDs containing a handful of albums.

[Tantulus]

For those of you who have Bidule and only 2.1 speakers I've worked out a method of monitoring both surround channels. Basically add a mixer between 5.1 output and windows sound mapper. You can then switch the output to the mapper and alternately monitor each of the surrounds through the front speakers.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/audio_mixer.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/0011.JPG

For those of you wishing to build a DVD compilation of albums I strongly suggest Soundforges's DVD Architect for templates and even slideshows to accompany the music. Another suggestion is to use CAMSTUDIO to capture the visualizations from programs liike Windows Media Player and mux them with the music on DVD.

Tantulus

[daphy]

@Tantulus

new bidules are always welcome :D, if you like to share it with the community please send the bidule + plus needed VSt-plugins etc. to me (daphy@spymac.com). I will upload it ASAP (f.e. as temp. download until needfulthings is up again).
(@ndy my server administrator is hitten by the serve flu - that´s why needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org) stays under construction - sorry folks :( )

An other question: is it possible to mix with your methode a 7.1 layout: 5.1 descret and the missing 2 channels as matrix inside LS,RS.

I bought a new receiver (Yamaha RX-V2500 real hot this machine, recommendable ;) ) which offers a lot of possiblilities more than my old one!

[Tantulus]

@Daphy:

I hesitated to upload this bidule because it is a revision of someone else's work. I only suggested a variation. If you feel that this is legitimate as a new bidule I'll be happy to upload it. PM me with your opinion.

As to your question about 7.1 I would suggest using the audio matrix component rather than the audio mixer. The mixer merely mixes down multiple tracks to stereo. Audio matrix allows you to mix and match not unlike SRS or Prologic II. I don't pretend to know much about it but I think by overlapping the missing 2 channels with the inputs for LS and RS you will achieve your result. Below, each channel for 5.1 is mapped 1:1, input to output but the two missing channels of 7.1 are mapped to the same output as LS & RS thus matrixing them.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Escinsavich/images/0014.JPG

I only used the mixer as a rude switch to monitor my settings in the VI bidule.

Humbly,

Tantulus

[oayz]

Since Bidule is not free anymore and the price is quite steep ($75) is anybody looking for alternative way to do 2->5.1

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by oayz
Since Bidule is not free anymore and the price is quite steep ($75) is anybody looking for alternative way to do 2->5.1

It is possible to do the conversion for free and legally, but it's not quite as easy as with Bidule. One possible course of action would be to use a program called Kristal Audio Engine. It's a really nice free multitrack recording program, something like a stripped down Cubase. It supports VST plugins. I've tested II with it, and it works fine.

So roughly the process would involve:

1. Loading a two channel file in and running it through II for the surrounds. If you wanted reverb, either use a reverb VST plugin or SIR with an impulse response in the second VST slot (each channel in Kristal supports 2 VST plugins. Output the result to a 2-channel wave file. Split the file into individual left and right files. This will be your surround left and right.
2. Create the center channel by mixing the left and right source channels to mono at -3dB each.
3. Create an LFE channel using a low-pass filter such an HMN with the crossover really low, perhaps around 60Hz (which is what I used for V.I.
4. Split the original stereo source file to creat the front left and right. If you want the width control feature in V.I, use a typical stereo width plugin to achieve the same thing. One really good free one I've used is mda Image.

Take these six files and process them as per the guides.

This method would take a bit of trail and error, but it should be possible to produce good results once you've tried it a few times. I'm in the middle of a new condo purchase and move so I don't have a lot of time to develop a full guide right now. Once I do, I'll be happy to put something better together. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to give it a go, I'll certainly update the guide list as soon as the guide is available.

Regards,
Steve.

[oayz]

Steve,

Thanks for reply. I will probably look into these graphedit based approaches. Good like with your condo, moving does take a lot of time.

[jm duchenne]

Hi,
It is possible to do the conversion for free and legally, but it's not quite as easy as with Bidule.
You know, there are also other free modular softwares : Audiomulch or Synthedit can do the same things than Bidule.

Regards,

[Tantulus]

@Daphy

Just to let you know I uploaded my layout for the V.1 monitor bidule that I mentioned above. It's a self-extracting zip file that should automatically extract to the layout directory in Bidule.

How are you doing with your 7.1 system? I bet you'd get great results with ambiophonics. I just set up 7.1 for my system by using an old receiver to amplify the back surrounds. I've been thinking of a way to matrix the back surrounds and place them in an ambiophonic setup myself. But that's another thread.

Have fun!

Tantulus

[specise_8472]

Originally posted by Tantulus
@Daphy
How are you doing with your 7.1 system? I bet you'd get great results with ambiophonics. I just set up 7.1 for my system by using an old receiver to amplify the back surrounds. I've been thinking of a way to matrix the back surrounds and place them in an ambiophonic setup myself. But that's another thread.

Have fun!

Tantulus

For DTS 6.1 see
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68029

There should be a VST that takes the three rear channels and mixes into DTS EX 2 channel. Daphy should have it on the old FTP.

7.1 is not 7 discrete channels. It is 2 rear (behind) the listener with the Rear Center repeated in both. The surround channels LR are to the side of the listener.

And from memory, my old 1.5 Ambiophonic Decoder does this mixing - would have to go back to my source and look.