V.I Stereo to 5.1 Converter VST Plugin Suite

[ursamtl]

Hi Pepe,

Actually Wavelab's UV22 HR is a very popular and effective dithering tool. I certainly recommend using it if you can. Up until the release of V.I version 1.x, I haven't been able to recommend using Wavelab with V.I plugins because it simply did not work with V.I. Wavelab does support surround work in Audio Montage mode, but it does not seem to support VST plugins that have a different number of inputs and outputs. However, by splitting the original V.I plugin into the three 2-channel plugins fLfR, CLFE, and sLsR, I was able to come up with a way to use V.I surround in Wavelab, Adobe Audtion, and other VST hosts. In fact, I'm working on guides for both Wavelab 5.0 and Audition 1.5-2.0 right now!

2. The channel order for V.I's outputs is as follows:

1. fL (front Left)
2. fR (front Right)
3. C (Center)
4. LFE (Low Frequency Effects)
5. sL (surround Left)
6. sR (surround Right)

I hope this helps.
Steve.

[ursamtl]

Hello, Ursamtl:

Good feedback. I've applied the defaults values except in the final output, logically: I've choose the option of six waves mono directly from the Audio File Recorder, and also, 16 bits.
The results are impressive. Many instruments seems to me appears like an enchantment. And you must say that: I don't have 5.1 speakers, only two magnificents MAGNEPLANAR'S SMGA, but SOMEBODY CAN TO TASTE THE DIFFERENCE.
Only a doubt: Both the rears retains a little portion of the vocalists voices, perfectly audibiles when I test the SL/SR channels on the SondForge. I think that is normal from the point of view of the new dimension of soundstage (360 degrees), but there's a "something" stranges voices sounds. There's some way to eliminate these sounds or -like I think- is better to let there?:thanks:

Thanks so many in advance and GREAT SOUND IN THIS SYSTEM!!!!!!
Pepe.:)


Glad to hear you're impressed with the results Pepe. I know what you mean about voices in the rears. The thing to remember is that rear channels are not normally meant to be listened to on their own. Part of the magic, or "enchantment" as you call it (nice choice of words :)), is that the surround channels work with phase similarities and differences between sounds in the back and the front to make voices and instruments seem to hang in mid-air. This gives the illusion of depth.

The only way to get true separation is to have a real 5.1 mix where the sounds are mixed to only certain channels. I have seen stereo-to-surround conversion methods that try to simulate this with some pseudo discrete effects. These are occasionally interesting, but most of the time there's some sort of a problem, such as strange warbling aartifacts, voices or sounds coming from weird places, percussion sounds that repeat to do too much delay, etc. What I've tried to do with V.I is present something that sounds like a natural expansion of the original stereo soundfield. It always depends on the source recording, but many stereo recordings have a lot of ambience information in there that gets lost or hidden by the constraints of two channels. Extracting this and presenting it together with the original info is the magic of it all. It only works if all the sounds are there to complement each other.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[Jenri]

Hello, Ursamtl:

Just like I've thinking about. The sense is like if you was inside the group and not behind the people who listen the concert. It's a new sensation.

And, sorry if molesting, but comparing this method with QSXT, the difference is so clear.

The QSXT pursuit the same: maximal width stereoimage and hypercontrol about the levels (methodic control over the balance in all channels). The V.I. method is succeded in these two areas, and also in an automatic manner.

The V.I. seems to preview the performance of the sound and just when it's possible the distortion, just applies the compresion level and there's no trouble. It's amazing the enormous possibilities included to play with him like a toy; we can make like anything...

Today I've noticed about your guides with the companions. These can make very happy to a lot of people. In anybody's name, again, thanks.

See you soon,
Pepe:)

[ursamtl]

Thanks again for the feedback Pepe. Yes, the idea behind V.I is to keep it as simple as possible while still producing a professional result. I've had more than one music industry pro comment to me that V.I works amazingly well in pro software such as Nuendo.

Yes, I'm happy to be able to post the Audition and Wavelab guides. A lot of people have sent me messages over the past year asking if I could adapt V.I to work in these programs and others. I've got several other ideas and plans I'm working with some people on for getting V.I to work with other software, some of it free as well.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[ursamtl]

For those who use Sony Sound Forge and Vegas, you can find a guide written by a member of the www.videhelp.com forum here:

Creating a Pseudo 5.1 Mix from Stereo Source Using V.I. (uses Sound Forge and Vegas) (http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=292142)Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

For those who experienced an error message in Plogue Bidule when opening the layout files that can be installed by the V.I installer program, I've resolved the problem and posted updates. At the same time, I also made slight updates to the manual to mention other host programs that support the V.I plugins, including, Sony Sound Forge and Vegas, as well as Kristal Audio Engine.

I've updated the V.I installer to version 1.11. Since there were no changes necessary to the actualy plugin dll files, for those who just want to download the updated layout files, fxb preset banks, or the updated manual, you can check the V.I web site (http://stevethomson.ca/vi) or download them here: Plogue Bidule layouts (zip, 13.3K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip)
V.I fxb Preset files (zip, 2.21K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/VI_fxbs.zip)
V.I Manual (zip, 315K) (http://stevethomson.ca/vi/V.I_Manual.zip)Enjoy!
Steve.

[f@chance]

Thanks for the update and it works like a charm. Well Stargate Atlantis finished airing in Canada and no more new episodes until July 16th which means one less upmix.

Thanks for your very excellent efforts Steve.

[ursamtl]

Glad they worked for you. Hey, if you're looking for upmix material, why not convert some of your favorite music CDs to surround CDs. Use a program such as Exact Audio Copy to make a copy of the CD as a wave file with cue file (or individual waves if you wish). Just make sure you leave them at 44.1kHz sampling instead of the 48 for DVDs. Then create AC3WAVE files or DTSWAVE files (depending on which format you're using) then burn them to an audio CD. These are playable in any DVD player that normally plays audio CDs. Providing they go through the digital connection to your receiver, the audio stream tricks your receiver's decoding circuit into thinking it's receiving a DVD soundtrack, so it decodes it to 5.1 surround!

[ursamtl]

You may have read somewhere about CLFE clipping if the source file is greater than 92% (-0.72dB). As is marked throughout the guides here and when you install the V.I Suite, always use a good quality limiter when attempting to convert stereo material to surround. The processes involved in extracting ambience involve subtracting and combining audio waves in such a way that certain frequencies and transients that may have been masked are suddenly uncovered. This applies to any method for converting stereo to surround.

If you carefully manage levels, you can get tremendous results. As Elektra pointed out in the VST plug-ins 5.1 0 6.1 Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113590) thread, V.I preserves the dynamic range of the music better than some other plugins. This is important to producing a good listening experience that expands on what's already there instead of trying to second-guess the recording engineers and artists who mixes the audio in the first place!

I might add that a lot of current music and especially many "remastered" CDs are actually boosted so badly that their dynamic range is ruined. These generally are not good sources for conversion to surround because many of the waveforms have been chopped off. If you must use them, reduce their level a bit first. I know using a limiter on music that has already been compressed seems ridiculous, but in my experiments with this material, I've found that transients are still uncovered when processed through conversion techniques, not only V.I but also others. Use the limiter only to block transients, not compress the music (with the exception of the LFE bass boosting trick I explain in the guide or improving dialog clarity in movies by compressing the C channel. Be careful).

Lately, I've discovered that some of the cleanest and best sources are CDs releases in the early 1980's. Mastering engineers in those days cared more about the quality of the sound than being louder than everyone else. For more information on this, there are several sites. Try the Wikipedia entry for "Loudness War" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war) for a lot of good information and for links to other relevant sites.

In the near future, I intend to update all my guides and provide some new guides for conversion. This will include some that use no shareware or commercial software. I will also include some detailed tips for managing levels and getting the most out of different material to achieve the best results.

Regards,
Steve.

[Elektra999]

I want to comment something Steve, about the Surround Panner.

I have been making some conversions of stereo to Surround 5,1/6,1, in Sony Forge 8, using plug-ins of the V.I (CLFE, FL FR and SL SR.), later in Sony Vegas, have made the conversion in AC3 5,1, have fit the Surround Panner as it indicates the guide (Creating Pseudo Surround) and me to seemed a very good conversion, for audio of a film.

I have used, Plogue with the V.I and with plug-in Extra Boy, acceptable results with the Extra Boy are obtained. For a fan as I am it, it is very difficult, to fit the back channels to me with the Extra Boy to eliminate the voices, and but difficult it is, to fit the tone of the back channels so that, they are looked like the frontal channels.
In Sony Vegas with Surround Panner, it did not seem to me that the sound lost much dynamics. With Surround Panner, I believe that, the tone of each channel can be fit and as well, the voices are not appraised so much by the back channels (SL SR), was to me but simple to use Surround Panner that Extra Boy and with acceptable results but. For that reason I am looking for a VST Surround Panner to work it within Plogue Bidule and V.I/VI.I.

Excuse Steve and if in something I am mistaken, him request that me says it, so that to share she is of wise people and to also rectify.

Thanks...
Elektra999

[Elektra999]

Steve, which treatment to say is, I believe that better civil employee a VST Surround Panner in Plogue, that the Extra Boy.
I prefer to fit the room of loudspeakers, using VST Surround Panner, before to eliminate the voices with Extra Boy and that hear devices

[Elektra999]

Audio 16bis/48000 Original Stereo with Sony Forge 8, processed with Plug-ins V.I (CLFE, FL FR, SL SR)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1619/procesoclfexd1.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2916/procesoflfrqx4.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2545/procesoslsrif7.jpg

Sony Vegas, I have followed the passages of guide Creating Pseudo Surround.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6662/doom9pe6.jpg

01. Surround Panner – Center 100%
02. Surround Panner – FL FR 68%
03. Surround Panner – SL SR 68%

Render As

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6712/sonyvegas01vi9.jpg

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7404/sonyvegas02pp5.jpg

6 independent channels monkey.

Software Encode DTS Pro Series
DTS 5.1

Acceptable results but that

Elektra999

[raquete]

Elektra999,
you are using extra-boy to remove the voice to get the remainder?
maybe i have one better solution because extra-boy is horrible(in my taste).

regards.

[Elektra999]

raquete
What this looking for is a VST Plug-in Surround Panner, when coming out to place it of the V.I in Plogue Bidule, for audio of film. Now I am using Sony Forge and Sony Vegas, so that the Surround Panner seems to me that it goes very well.
That solution you have, to eliminate the voices?

Thanks
Elektra999

[raquete]

i'm testing one new gui that give me center(L-R) and sides(surrounds-center), is not VST Plug-in.
It can read 32-bit WAVs, but only the integer type, not floating point. 24-bit and 8-bit files are supported as well.(not float)
it's based on Avery Lee centercut for virtualdub
have one dsp_centercut too but i'm testing the Gui.
sounds amazing if you want center only and surrounds without center,....i like this way.
if you mix(sum) the center with the surrounds you get the source again because it only extract the channels without change the volume or the general dynamic of the music.(i only encode musics in 5.1,no movies)

Requires .NET Framework v2.0
http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=12627&hl=

regards

[raquete]

@ ursamtl
CLFE clipping if the source file is greater than 92% (-0.72dB).in rare cases when the source is from "loudness war".
don't mind because sources too loud "sounds like clipping",in loudness war nobody win.(you know what i mean...bad source,bad result) ;)

In the near future, I intend to update all my guides and provide some new guides for conversion.near future? :confused:
ah...you're kiddin,we can't only stay here waiting for your cool guides,do that fast please :D

This will include some that use no shareware or commercial software. I will also include some detailed tips for managing levels and getting the most out of different material to achieve the best results. cool! ;)
thanks so much.
:)

[ursamtl]

@ ursamtl
in rare cases when the source is from "loudness war".
don't mind because sources too loud "sounds like clipping",in loudness war nobody win.(you know what i mean...bad source,bad result) ;)
Yes, the loudness war is ruining a lot of otherwise good music. I've started going to used CD stoires and buying old, non-remastered versions of albums. Some of these sound tremendous. For instance, I picked up 80's versions of Led Zeppelin IV and Pink Floyd's the Wall that sound much better than the so-called "remasters." Detailing on the high frequencies, separation, etc., are all better and overall they sound much more natural.

The 92% claim seems a bit bogus to me actually. In my tests, inputting a 100% continuous tone to both CLFE and the full V.I plugins gives only 60% output from the C channel, which is far below clipping. Sounds to me more like someone was trying to gain favor by impressing a forum administrator in another forum than actually provide accurate, constructive criticism that might be useful to us all.

near future? :confused:
ah...you're kiddin,we can't only stay here waiting for your cool guides,do that fast please :D

cool! ;)
thanks so much.
:)

Hey, I gotta have a life sometimes! ;). Seriously, it's summer and I've got a lot of stuff going on right now. I do have some ideas I've been working on for awhile now. These include some updated free guides that use some new software that's become available, some new ways to use existing tools, and even a couple of surprises! Stay tuned! I did mention earlier that I was working on a program that would do it all without a VST host. I still haven't given up on it. I just haven't had time to study the programming required to get the whole thing presentable.

By the way, it looks like you've been having some fun with the centercut software, etc. Why not write us a guide? I'd be happy to add it to the guide list. Elektra has also been doing some interesting work as well and taking the time to post some nice graphics of his work.

I find that these spectral-based plugins have to be carefully adjusted to avoid ruining the overall sound. I've heard upmixes that were supposedly "excellent" but when I listened, they sounded like disembodied lead vocals floating over music so full of warbling, "underwater" artifacts that the whole thing came across like it was run through a cheap freeware reverb plugin set to a preset called "oil tank"!!! I heard a complete massacre of both Elton John's Madman Across the Water and Pink Floyd's Meddle recently. Both actually sounded like the whole album was run through some cheap guitar pedal phase shifter!

This being said, with the proper adjustments and in the hands of someone trying to preserve fidelity not destory it, these spectral-based plugins can be quite useful. If you listen to the demos on the elevayta web site, (the Sade one is stunning) you realize it is possible to do a fairly clean separation, but it has to be adjusted very carefully by someone who really knows how to use the plugin.

Anyway, let us know how how the results turn out.

Regards,
Steve.

[raquete]

Steve,
Why not write us a guide? i can do but with screenshots hosted in imageshack because my english is horrible(you know) :o
is using adobe audition,centercutgui,your CLFE(i use only LFE) and FFt that i mix with LFE to get "bass management".
in lots of music don't have basses in the extremes,this give poor sounds then i sum 15% of the LFE with surrounds.(personal taste).
is very complicated at the first sign and need big patience but the result is amazing in my taste.
i did some "scripts" in audition for automation and it turn the job more friendly.
if you think that is valid i can do that with pleasure. ;)

I picked up 80's versions of Led Zeppelin IV ...sound much better than the so-called "remasters." Detailing on the high frequencies, separation, etc., are all better and overall they sound much more natural.true!
i have all of Led Zep 3 times:
all cds from USA,Germany and Brasil. Germany sounds better but for my big surprise,the LP Led Zep II sounds better than all cds in the music "what is and what should never be".

In my tests, inputting a 100% continuous tone to both CLFE and the full V.I plugins gives only 60% output from the C channel, which is far below clipping. as i told you,it happens in rare cases(hard to find),here is one:
Paul McCartney- Off the Ground.this cd have too much center channel and few surround then is the first music get 2 or 3 little clips because the cd is too loud.CLFE is not guilty...the source is "dangerous".
when the source is not so loud and have better surround it never happen.

best regards!

[Elektra999]

The Surround Panner, much more seems easy to fit to me that the Extra Boy, although also is something difficult.
But I think that, with some VST Surround Panner placed in Plogue when coming out of the V.I/VI.I, the conversion comes out well, for audio of films:

it does not cause devices, when I listen to the results in my home cinema 5.1/6.1, the voices are not appraised sBut I think that, with some VST Surround Panner placed in Plogue when coming out of the V.I/VI.I, the conversion comes out well, for audio of films: o much by the back channels, is as if the voices were back but, listening to better the sound effect of the film, and not touching so much the dynamics of the sound.


If I have CD-Audio or DVD-Audio with a good recording, I do the following thing:
For audio musical comedy, I make the conversion in Plogue with V.I/VI.I and Encoder DTS Pro Series and to run. At least the original recording is touched better, if the complica thing is a bad recording, then attempt to extend the stereo image before the V.I with some VST (Jenri, was the one who tube this idea AND SEEMS to ME BRILLIANT: -)

For English bad, mine jajajajaja

[Elektra999]

Story a secret, I translate of English to Spanish with text translators. I am learning English, but jajaja costs to me much.

:)

[Elektra999]

If they necisitan my aid, to make guide or any other thing… I make it enchanted.

To is CD-Audio de Evanescence Bring Me to .life, I made the conversion in DTS 6,1, with VI.I in Plogue and Encoder DTS Pro Series, best CD DTS 6,1 than I have done in my life, so that it is a good stereo original recording.

Regards

Elektra999

[ursamtl]

I'm happy to mention that Elektra999 has tested V.I and VI.I in Sony Sound Forge 9 and he has reported that they work perfectly. Here's a link to his post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=990294#post990294).

[ursamtl]

Just thought I'd throw in an update for those who might have problems with Vegas 7 not recognizing V.I or other VST plugins. One V.I user has reported to me that once he uninstalled V.I and re-installed it afterwards, everything worked perfectly.

[Elektra999]

Hello, cubase 4 is where I have problems with V.I click (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1022891#post1022891)

[Elektra999]

Ursamlt
You have to make the VII.I 7.1, for my next encoder, DTS HD Master Audio :D:D:D

[ursamtl]

Ursamlt
You have to make the VII.I 7.1, for my next encoder, DTS HD Master Audio :D:D:DHehe. The winter is coming so I'll have some time then. :)

[Elektra999]

It is a joke Steve ;) but if to ask him, that, when it could, ¿would it help me to solve the problem of Cubase 4 and V.I?

DTS HD Master Audio, will not be in Spain, up to spring of 2008

Thanks

[Elektra999]

I believe that in Cubase 4, is updated, to use, the VST plug-ins versions 3 or 4, for this reason, believe that V.I does not work.

¿V.I is a version 2 or 3 of VST Plug-ins?

[jriker1]

So I have a 2 channel stereo WAV file opened in Sound Forge 9. So 1 and 2 blue and in use as front left and right. I can play these two independently and see which one is left and right, but even that is not readily apparent visually. I set the project to 5.1 so now have 3 and 4 in pink and 5 and 6 in yellow for future audio containers.

I use V.I. Suite to make this 5.1. So now 1,2,3,4,5,6 all have some level of audio in them. So I can tell which is left and right between 1,2 and 3,4 and 5,6, however how do you determine which is front right/left, center, read right/left and LFE?

Is there some order to the madness on how it outputs things?

Thanks.

JR