DVD2DVD-R [Archive] - Page 3

29th April 2003, 07:59

Originally posted by mrbass
[Subtitles]
Check Rip Subtitles
CVD Subtitles
do I even need to do this?

DVD2SVCD won't rip subtitles in a Maestro/Scenarist compatible format so if at all, you should use permanent subtitles (for "alien subs" for instance).

[Frameserver]
Resize to DVD (720x480/576)
BicubicResize
I edited .avs and took out Bicubic cuz I thot
it's only when you resize it to something other than
the source. Should I have left it in?
Also I had to add Audio()
at the end to prevent CCE from crashing.

It's OK to take out the resizing, though I recommend my AutoFitCD plugin even for DVD conversions :), simply ensures you get the most out of you DVD-R.

[Bitrate]
I put all Between 0 and 999mins and all Use 1 CD size 4480

My Max. 6500 Min. 300 unchecked Min. avg Max. avg 2230

You need to raise max. Avg to something like 8500. This is the reason for the undersizing you are seeing. This setting tells DVD2SVCD which average bitrate never to exceed.

Only difference was in BBMPEG in advanced I didn't double-click DVD...instead I clicked MPEG2....ok that's probably were I screwed up.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations.

MedicineMan

29th April 2003, 08:21

Hello.

I know that this reply may be a bit of out of time (it should be made a few days ago), because from the thread i followed some of the questions i ask are already answered. But please excuse me for questioning that again.

I've been doing backups of my movies since the days of DVD2SVCD. And loved that program. The main problem being the SVCD format that, although great, wasn't 100% compatible with my players. So, when i got a DVD burner, i searched the web for a program that allowed me to do what i did with DVD2SVCD. Easy to use (i'm not a video expert, and get lost with some of the terms and implications of them), and that worked. I've followed the work of DVD2SVCD, and expected him to have a program capable of doing DVDs now (yes, i know it can do them, but not the way i need them; with at least 2 sound tracks, all the subtitles i want, and that does all the authoring part of it). So i turned to DVD2DVD-R, and after overcoming the fact that his website is in german (afterall the program is in English), I've sucessufuly backed-up over 50 DVD movies.

Ok, i'm lucky. I live in Europe, and only backup PAL movies. We all know that NTSC movies are different, and have different problems. But what worries me is the fact that i'm not sure anymore how should i "configure" the DVD2DVD-R program, mainly the CCE part of it.

You know, i've been using DVD2DVD-R exclusively. Yes, even on movies that are only about 4,5Gb before encoding. And had only 2 problems until now (one i now know that was probably caused by "combing", and another where the file calculation failed, and the size of the VOBs was larger than the size of the DVDr disk). And after reading the Doom9 forums, i always do what the DVD2DVD-R program tells me to do about it's settings. But planning to get a new TV set (100" projection screens?; i didn't even know they made them that big; i can't afford that size in Europe), i'm worried that my backups aren't that perfect. So my main question is:

Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it? Do i really need to use a program like bitrate viewer? If so, what settings should i use? If i need to use it, then it isn't a "one-click solution" afterall.

Sincerely

MedicineMan

windtrader

29th April 2003, 09:18

My only real choice was to make a 1:1 copy and split it across 2 discs. Now I have DVD2DVD-R. These same movies look good on my ~114" movie screen. When watching at normal speed and distances (~10ft) I cannot tell the difference between the original and the copy.

Monomer, Did you mean that the original and 1-1 copy look the same? Or did you mean that the DVD2DVDR copy and the orginal looked the same?

mrbass

29th April 2003, 09:40

I was just doing what dvd2svcd said here (2nd post)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=28017

"3. In the bbMPEG tab under Advanced Settings DoubleClick on MPEG2 (not dvd, as bbmpeg wont create dvd compliant streams)"

Anyway I'll raise my max avg...crap like that happens when you do stuff at 3am...hehe
Thanks for the advice RB.

Only difference was in BBMPEG in advanced I didn't double-click DVD...instead I clicked MPEG2....ok that's probably were I screwed up.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations. [/B]

29th April 2003, 10:18

Originally posted by MedicineMan
Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it?
One complaint about DVD2DVD-R I've always had is that it calculates a min. and max. bitrate that "depends" on the average bitrate and doesn't let you use a max. bitrate above 7552 kbits/sec. no matter what.

For instance, for a 90 minute movie, it defaults to 4136/6205/7552 (min./avg./max.). However, for 135 minutes it calculates 2688/4033/6049 (only one 448 kbps AC3 track and no subtitles selected in both cases).

In the first case, the min. bitrate is unnecessarily high, forcing CCE to allocate many bits for easy parts of the video although it may not be necessary, leaving less bitrate for really difficult parts. In the second case, it calculates a relatively low max. bitrate, apparently simply because the average bitrate is also low. This does not make any sense and in this particular case actually cuts the peak bitrate CCE could use for complex scenes by more than 3000 kbits.

For only one AC3 track of 448 kbps, one can easily use a max. video bitrate of 9200 kbps, but DVD2DVD-R won't let you, 7552 is the max you can set manually. Chatwalker says that's because this is the standard of a multi angle DVD and Scenarist sometimes breaks if the max. bitrate is higher, but DVD2DVD-R does not create a DVD with multiple angles in the first place and I never had problems importing a 9200 kbps max. bitrate MPV into Scenarist.

Another setting that is sometimes described incorrectly in the DVD2DVD-R forums and guides is the "Upper field first" checkbox. Rule of thumb: uncheck it unless your source is interlaced and bottom field first (very rare on DVDs).

To sum it up, I would always set min. bitrate to 1000 and max. bitrate to 7552 in DVD2DVD-R and hope that at some point Chatwalker thinks about this again and stops calculating min. and max. bitrate depending on the movie length. And hopefully at some point allows you to set a max. video bitrate that is really (9800 - AC3 bitrate - subs bitrate).

monomer

29th April 2003, 17:14

I'll make this brief since I'm in the middle of giving exams and should be 'working'. (Having computers with high-speed access at each lecture station is great.)

MedicineMan... I am using an LCD projector (fed by a computer) to project onto a ~114" wide movie screen I've mounted in a black velvet-covered frame. Decent LCD projectors can now be purchased for under $1400 directly from Japan. Of course you can also get as expensive as you want... check it all out at www.avsforum.com Go to the projector forums... there are several of them. (First select the link to "All Forums")

Windtrader... The 1:1 is essentially the original and so will definitely look the same, even under 'frame advance' scrutiny. What I meant was the DVD2DVD-R copy looked as good as the original, with me going back and forth comparing with the original in the same scenes. I only became aware of any differences by using 'frame advance' to view each frame one at a time.

Mrbass... DVDToolBox is a wonderful program. It's the one I now pick for movie splitting and I also use it to quickly gauge stripped movie and soundtrack file sizes... this advises me on how to 'deal' with a movie.

Drylook

29th April 2003, 19:09

Hello guys.
Interesting thread...

I've got a problem with a live show DVD (Party at the Palace).
It's a big one and for those I always used DVD2DVD-R (1.4.8 now) and CCE SP 2.66.

The thing is that my copies look "shuttering" on fast dancing girls. Looks like a special effect but it's not (confirmed by the original).
I don't know if the problem is the so called combing...

First try was with Progressive checked (as advised by DVD2DVD-R).
Second try was with Progressive unchecked (like BV told me to).

On both of them --- same problem!

Now what???
It's a PAL DVD.

thop

29th April 2003, 22:20

I tried DVD2DVD-R today. Actually it encoded the main movie of Bad Company pretty fast (~55 minutes for CCE, plus ~30 minutes for the preperation) on my 2800+, however i doesn't really make sense to use DVD2DVD-R if you want to do main movie only because you can usually transcode the main movie with level 1,2 or 3 (if you strip unnecessary audio) in dvd shrink which als gives excellent results in less than 15 minutes. less of a hassle too :)

i'd probably reconsider DVD2DVD-R ifit could encode the whole DVD with CCE, in one step.

edit: actually i just tried dvdshrink and it fits the main movie with level 1 and one audio stream, or level 2 and 2 audio streams.

jzaman

30th April 2003, 00:32

Originally posted by monomer

jzaman... I've tried every combination of 'flags' and all I ever got was 'big time' stuttering in Zoomplayer but I never tried any of those 'experimental' movies in my other players... why not give it a try and let us know what happens.

monomer:
In my search for the Holy Grail of large movie only copies I am offering for sacrifice one more burn of Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones with set 'drop frame' flag selected. Should be cooked and ready in a few hours. Does your time duration problem also include number jerkiness in the display?

mrbass

30th April 2003, 01:33

Originally posted by thop
however i doesn't really make sense to use DVD2DVD-R if you want to do main movie only because you can usually transcode the main movie with level 1,2 or 3 (if you strip unnecessary audio) in dvd shrink which als gives excellent results in less than 15 minutes. less of a hassle too :)

It makes total sense to use CCE for movies like Gladiator, Patriot, ShawShawnk Redemption. I will only do dvdshrink to level 1 or 2. Sometimes not even 2 depending on if it's too much compression or not. Anything that requires a level 3 (after audio is stripped and all extras) then IC or CCE. I did C.S.I. season 1 disc 1 last night with IC7 and it's definitely watchable but I can tell it suffers a bit with 4 episodes per DVD. Obviously the best way would be using DoItFast4U and DoCCE4U if I knew how. So I guess it's best I start learning the tricks of the trade.

monomer

30th April 2003, 02:27

Originally posted by jzaman
monomer: Does your time duration problem also include number jerkiness in the display?

Don't know, never really stared at it for a long time. Off-hand, I never noticed anything jerky... I'll check again and let you know.

UPDATE: My "Last of the Mohicans" came out just like "Collateral Damage": stutters in Zoomplayer but plays perfect in PowerDVD and in my Sony standalone except the time duration is off by 42 minutes. No audio sync issues... all sound is perfectly in sync throughout this 2 hour and 15 minute movie. (It was made using the pulldownmod.exe)

BTW, I thought I read somewhere that these audio sync issues are cause by the 'clock' in the soundcard not having enough precision. I'll have to do a search of the archives on the AVSforums to find that thread again. So far I've not had any problems with audio sync (knock on wood)... for what its worth, I am using an Audigy soundcard.

monomer

30th April 2003, 02:42

Originally posted by MedicineMan
So my main question is:
Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it? Do i really need to use a program like bitrate viewer? If so, what settings should i use? If i need to use it, then it isn't a "one-click solution" afterall.

For the most part bitrate viewer seems to confirm the defaults selected by DVD2DVD-R... you just double-click the icon and 'point' it to one of the vobs and click OK. That's all there is to it... its a simple thing to compare bitrate viewer's output to DVD2DVD-R's default settings. I've never yet had to change DVD2DVD-R's default settings because of anything bitrate veiwer 'told' me. Yes, I believe it is still a 'one click' solution.

mpucoder

30th April 2003, 03:00

Originally posted by monomer
BTW, I thought I read somewhere that these audio sync issues are cause by the 'clock' in the soundcard not having enough precision.

Virtually all software players no longer have a problem with that. It took awhile for some to figure out that in a PC you cannot slave the audio clock to the DVD clock, so, instead, you sync everything else to the soundcard.
It's not that way in a standalone, the audio clock and video clock are locked together.

jzaman

30th April 2003, 03:54

monomer:
I just finished doing Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones over again with the 2:3 pulldown/Force Film selections and the set "drop frame' flag. Same problem with time and compatibility and no discernable improvement in movie quality. The only software player I use is WinDVD 4.0 and it is the only one I like. It plays all my copies made with DVD2DVD-R default settings confirmed by Bitrate Viewer so I have not been able to confirm the frame problem without 2:3 pulldown and Force Film selected. Is ignorance bliss? I take out the copy I made last week with my usual method of going with the defaults (after confirming ahead of time with Bitrate Viewer) and play it again. Even if I compare it to the pulldown/force film versions (apart from their problems) I see no difference. (I have four versions burned - confirmed defaults with no pulldown/force film, confirmed defaults with pulldown/force film, confirmed defaults with pulldownmod/force film, and confirmed defaults with pulldownmod/force film/set 'drop frame' flag.) It looks comparable to the original and it plays for 2:22:20 with no time problem or standalone navigation\compatibility problem. I know this doesn't make sense but this is what I see. I don't care how it looks on my PC. I only care how it looks on my players. On all the burned NTSC copies without Force Film/2:3 pulldown the copies are pretty good in my players. I'm going full circle. Does the standalone circuitry compensate for mild artifacting?

mrbass

30th April 2003, 04:45

ok did gladiator VBR 3 pass and this is what info.txt says

[VIDEO]
Frames=222930
Horizontal Size=720
Vertical Size=480
AspectRatio=16 : 9
Framerate=23.976 fps
VBVBuffer=112
Bitrate=9801600 bit/s
VideoFormat=NTSC
ChromaFormat=4:2:0
Progressive=False
UpperField=True
ZigZagScanningOrder=False
LinearQuantizerScale=False
IntraDCPrecision=10
PTS=25257
Duration=02:34:48:18

Bitrate viewer says of the original movie
Notice is opposite of what I specified..see below

Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9801600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

I checked/unchecked like so the following in DVD2DVD-R 1.4.8 CCE 2.50

[X]Progressive Frames
[ ]Linear Quantizer
[X]ZigZag
[ ]Upper Field First (why does final output say UpperField=True?)
[X]Force Film
[X]2:3 Pulldown (did with pulldownmod.exe)
[X]Set Drop Frame Flag
[ ]Set Progressive Flag

I don't understand this Upper field first if I had it unchecked then how did it end up with upper field first...good moses.
Zigzag I had checked just like original but the result ending up being the opposite.
How in the world did it end up not being progressive? That's the bigone. I don't think any of these parameters are actually being set and there isn't enough of a detailed log in DVD2DVD-R. Based on this I guess I'm just gonna try what @jzaman and do the opposite of what were are supposed to do and see if it doesn't render decent results.

edit: once again...don't believe anything I say..ok now here's my a small portion of my gladiator.ecl file (Encoder Control List)

drop_frame=1
progressive=1
alternate_scan=0
non_linear=1
top_first=0

So it was written correctly according to the options that I had set..so the question remains. How did CCE end up screwing up the end result...hmmmm.

monomer

30th April 2003, 06:05

Mrbass... I know nothing about the 'inner workings' of DVD2DVD-R other than what I see in the Log... that's why I've been using 'trial and error' as my method of learning. But I've also been doing quite a bit of reading about film and video and DVDs and such. (Please keep in mind, my real work has nothing to do with computers much less video... that should explain why my vocabulary is so limited in this area of discussion.)

It appears to me that the number of frames on a DVD and the information contained in them doesn't really change when it goes from progressive to interlaced or is telecine or inversed telecine... but rather its the 'flags' that change. And its the software in the players that 'read' the flags and convert the frames 'on-the-fly' to whatever your display device handles. If this is so, then all CCE needs to know is how the frames are assembled so it will know how to interpret the frames. (I think that's why you have to 'tell' it when top field is first, etc.) Then it actually compresses and re-encodes the movie frames but now it has insert back the appropriate 'flags'. How does CCE know which way to assemble the 'flags'? Does it always do it the same? Have I gone off the deep end? Is this even the way its really done?

jzaman said: "Does the standalone circuitry compensate for mild artifacting?"
If my guess as to how this all works (see above) is correct, then this, I think, would be a real possibility. BTW, don't you have a 'frame advance' feature on your player? Try advancing it 'frame-by-frame' and see what each frame looks like... Then put in the original DVD and go to the same scene. Now 'frame advance' through it and compare. And tell us what you see... anything?

UPDATE: Just finished "Little Big Man"... its 7.3Gb stripped! After DVD2DVD-R, it looks real good. ForceFilm, 2:3 checked. No audio sync problems. Again, won't play in Zoomplayer but does play in everything else... displayed time duration is short by 28 minutes. I am now doing "Dances With Wolves". This one's a little over 7Gb.

30th April 2003, 08:12

Originally posted by mrbass

I don't understand this Upper field first if I had it unchecked then how did it end up with upper field first...good moses.
Zigzag I had checked just like original but the result ending up being the opposite.
How in the world did it end up not being progressive? That's the bigone.
mrbass, I'm sure that the Info.txt generated by DVD2DVD-R again refers to the original stream. Obviously it gets some information incorrect but that does not matter as long as you set up CCE correctly (as you did). You need to check the final M2V generated from CCE/DVD2DVD-R with BitRate Viewer instead.

As for "Upper Field First" in CCE: this has been discussed in the CCE forum several times. It is a little confusing because CCE always sets the "Top Field First" flag in the output stream, no matter how you set the Upper Field First checkbox. What it does however when you check it is shifting the whole frame one line up so that bff interlaced video is encoded correctly. So again, the rule of thumb is to never check this option unless input video is interlaced and bottom field first.

monomer

30th April 2003, 16:51

MedicineMan... If the AVSForums seems a bit too chaotic, you should go here first: http://www.projectorcentral.com they have excellent guides to introduce and explain the world of projectors. I highly recommend front screen projectors for a home movie theater... I think its the biggest "bang for your buck" (or whatever monetary denomination you're using).

mrbass

30th April 2003, 17:08

ok did 4 pass vbr and kept first four options checked...It looks great...so basically here's my guide:
start dvd2dvdr, use default options and click go....lol. Seriously as long as it plays I guess. I flipped through each frame and it DID NOT exhibit bad frames like when doing force film, 2:3 pulldown, and drop frame.

edit: Oops it was way outta synch with subtitles though so it's a no go. I'll keep trying this or that.

RB I'll always unchecked Upper Field First from now on unless like you say it's interlaced material which most NSTC movies are not except for like concernt, music, documentary DVDs.

monomer

30th April 2003, 17:29

Mrbass...
...so let me see if I've got this right... No need to check 'Top Field First' (except when the original source material was recorded in video). And if I uncheck this option, I no longer need to check 'ForceFilm' or '2:3' pulldown... and I'll not have any 3rd and 4th frame interlacing artifacts in the final processed movie...? Great! can't wait to get home tonight and try this out.

Edit after reading mrbass' Edit: I don't use subtitles anyway... so I assume that should not be a problem for me... right?

mrbass

30th April 2003, 20:03

honestly monomer I don't know what to tell you. I plan on keep experimenting for as long as it takes.

DVD2DVD-R 1.4.9 is out but I don't think it corrects anything except maybe that scenarist subtitle bug (I hope).

30th April 2003, 20:30

Originally posted by mrbass
start dvd2dvdr, use default options and click go....lol.
I'd still suggest you modify the min. and max. bitrate as I described earlier in this thread because the values DVD2DVD-R calculates are nonsense most of the time.

RB I'll always unchecked Upper Field First from now on unless like you say it's interlaced material which most NSTC movies are not except for like concernt, music, documentary DVDs.
Again, only if it's truly interlaced (check with DVD2AVI preview) AND it is bottom field first (check with BitrateViewer, Top Field First = No means it's bottom field first).

mrbass

30th April 2003, 21:45

Originally posted by RB

To sum it up, I would always set min. bitrate to 1000 and max. bitrate to 7552 in DVD2DVD-R

I will do what you say (I've done it past two encodes btw) is set min to 1000 and max to 7500 (easy to remember).

jzaman

30th April 2003, 23:52

monomer:

Have you noticed any movie quality improvements with Force Film/2:3 Pulldown selected? Are you still going the Force Film/2:3 Pulldown selected route? Have you made burned comparisons or only software player comparisons?

I know that you and I are trying all the permutations like drunken alchemists but I think we are getting closer to the formula. The 1000 min/7500 max bitrate concept and the Bottom field First rule are also worth testing. I still don't understand why the original NTSC vob can have upper field first selected but it is recommended to deselect it in DVD2DVD-R. Is it possible that the "whacked" frame thing is related to CCE's problem with Bottom Field First? Maybe we just go with the NTSC defaults as verified by Bitrate Viewer(without pulldown/force film) and simply unclick upper field first. This would confirm what I am seeing and also eliminate/minimize the frame to frame problem.
............sounds too easy to be true!

P.S. Redoing Star Wars II: with defaults except for Bottom Field first manually unselected (force film/pulldown unselected). Will compare the final burn with the others.

monomer

1st May 2003, 00:33

Originally posted by jzaman
...Is it possible that the "whacked" frame thing is related to CCE's problem with Bottom Field First? Maybe we just go with the NTSC defaults as verified by Bitrate Viewer(without pulldown/force film) and simply unclick upper field first. This would confirm what I am seeing and also eliminate/minimize the frame to frame problem.
............sounds too easy to be true!

I'm trying it right now as I write this. I don't want to speak too soon but it could explain a number of things if this works. As far as the subtitles being out of sync... really won't affect my copies (since I don't keep them). I figure I got about 3 hours more to go before I'll know anything... I'm feeling real positive about this.

BTW, I've done the last 4 movies with ForceFilm and 2:3 checked and I had to burned them to check 'em on my Sony. But I also made 'Split Disc' copies of them as well (just to cover all my bases). I hope you're also giving this a try so we can compare notes later.

jzaman

1st May 2003, 03:35

(deleted)

monomer

1st May 2003, 03:48

Great! can't wait until "Dances With Wolves" is finished...

jzaman... How long did it take to do? I ask that because it looks like this one is going to take about 4.5+ hours. That's the longest any movie has ever taken by far! Its a big movie to be sure (at 7+Gb stripped) but over an hour longer than any of my other movies? I wonder if changing my maximum bit rate to 7552 could have anything to do with it?

I'll post my results when I can...

jzaman

1st May 2003, 04:26

monomer:

Sorry I had to take back what I said and delete my previous (premature) post but I can't endorse DVD2DVD-R's handling of the Upper Field first setting. The Field Top First: Yes is seen in the vob's with Bitrate Viewer after the re-encoding even though I deselected it in DVD2DVD-R. I know that Force Film and pulldown\pulldownmod somehow correctly deselects the Upper Field First setting. (Even when I select it in DVD2DVD-R, force film/pulldown overides it and I can confirm that with Bitrate Viewer after the re-encoding). I also know that force film/pulldown or pulldownmod has problems that overshadow the cure.

Originally it was looking great (on PowerDVD) until I played it on my standalone players and also played it longer. When I played it further into the movie it was significantly shaky and jerky on my DVD players. I did another burn to rule out a bad burn but it's still the same. So far (at least with this movie) the use of confirmed default settings without Force Film/pulldown has given me my best quality copy. I wish it all fell neatly into place.

MackemX

1st May 2003, 09:49

nice to see you guys going thru the learning curve with DVD2DVDR

it's simple once you know how ain't it :)

It looked like Quantum Physics when I first started using CCE and also DVD2DVDR and especially when I read the CCE Advanced Guide on this site :eek:

but now it's as easy as 1,2,3, err 5 :D, it's like riding a bike, looks tricky at first but once you learn you'll never forget

I just wish someone would actually bring out a tool that used a CCE like encoder but had similar features to IC but it actually worked reliably and did more than one pass

surely somebody's gotta be working on such a tool cos there is a massive market out there waiting for one such tool

I thought XPRESS Platinum was gonna be that tool, but judging by it's movie only version and the speed of processing, I very much doubt it :(

if it's an encoder, it's too darn fast for my liking and I reckon it's just a trancoder and they are talking BS just like the most of the description

CLONEDVD is one of the next to come out but that's a transcoder, so who's giving all the developers ideas that processing speed is the main issue and developing all these transcoders?????

people don't have to sit and babysit the progress bar do they!

one day maybe, one day!, and hopefully sometime before Blue Laser is mainstream that tool will arrive :D

mrbass

1st May 2003, 09:53

Originally posted by MackemX
nice to see you guys going thru the learning curve with DVD2DVDR

one day maybe, one day!, and hopefully sometime before Blue Laser is mainstream that tool will arrive :D

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=52018

it's coming...kinda ..read 2nd post.

MackemX

1st May 2003, 10:03

I knew about Re-Authorist but that's not exactly a legal option for the masses is it :D. That's for more advanced web users if you know what I mean ;)

though some of us ain't on 100K salaries and if you could afford to buy all the software legally why on earth would you back them up?, would it not be cheaper to just buy two copies or in fact purchase the rights to the movie? :p

If Pinnacle implemented a opitonal multiple pass that resulted in better quality and sizes of 4.37Gb, and sorted one or two daft bugs, can you imagine the rush to download the update or buy it :D

I'll stop now cos this I going away from the subject of DVD2DVR anyway

but thanks for the pointer mrbass :)

p.s. fingers crossed :rolleyes:

jzaman

1st May 2003, 14:56

Originally posted by MackemX
I just wish someone would actually bring out a tool that used a CCE like encoder but had similar features to IC but it actually worked reliably and did more than one pass

This is exactly why I've been spending extra time with DVD2DVD-R. I know that the CCE Basic encoding engine is superior to a transcoder engine or a one pass semi-encoder like IC. Unfortunately there are numerous roadblocks with NTSC DVD's with DVD2DVD-R and CCE.

jzaman

2nd May 2003, 00:50

monomer:

Tools: DVD Decrypter 3.1.6.0, DVD2DVD-R 1.49,CCE Basic 2.67.01.11, Bitrate Viewer 1.5.054, ImgTools 1.0.0.4 with Nero 5.5.10.20 API and PowerDVD XP 4.0
Movie: NTSC Burner: Pioneer 105 Media: Ritek 4x

This method is based on the specific tools above and the creation of a NTSC main movie only copy (without subtitles, menus,extras).

STEPS:
(1) Rip the full movie with DVD Decrypter in file mode.
(2) Analyze the 2nd vob and 4th vob with Bitrate Viewer and write down the settings.
(3) Use only the settings you wrote down and change the DVD2DVD-R MPEG Encoder options(even if it differs from the DVD2DVD-R prediction)
(4) Click Go.
(5) Burn.
(6) Play in PowerDVD (Step Forward T) in frame by frame and compare to original.
(7) Play in multiple standalone DVD players to evaluate.
(8) Find an audience to watch it.

I am waiting on Red Dragon to finish (a few hours to go). Under DVD2DVD-R only the Upper Field First was automatically selected. However, the Bitrate Viewer Analysis of the original vobs revealed Upper Field first unselected, Zigzag selected and progressive selected. (Also Pulldown/Force Film is not selected.)I changed the settings accordingly as per step 3.

When it's done I'll go through steps 5 through 8 and let you know how it goes.

jzaman

2nd May 2003, 03:30

Just finished Red Dragon: It is screwed up (shaky, unstable) and the upper field first is selected when I analyze the vobs after the re-encode even though upper field first was unselected in DVD2DVD-R Encoding options. A pattern is now emerging.

As I previously stated:
(2) Analyze the 2nd vob and 4th vob with Bitrate Viewer and write down the settings.
(3) Use only the settings you wrote down and change the DVD2DVD-R MPEG Encoder options(even if it differs from the DVD2DVD-R prediction)

Apparently in the case of DVD2DVD-R and NTSC DVD copies it was a lucky streak that gave me my original success. The problem is that the encoder options selected in DVD2DVD-R can not be counted on. The flags don't fly right!

Let me explain:
I based my steps on normal events. For example, if I transcode Red Dragon through DVD2One the analysis (step 2) before transcoding matches the settings after transcoding. When I get that matchup with DVD2DVD-R Encoding Options and the original Bitrate analysis then the movie rendered is very good.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS: DVD2DVD-R/CCE/DVD2AVI COMBO DOESN'T DO THE ENCODING OPTIONS CORRECTLY WITH NTSC DVD BACKUPS. (I do not know which component of this combo inverts or subverts the selections.)

When it does get it right then I get a good backup. That explains my previous luck. One workaround is to analyze the vobs before and after and if the settings match then you can do a frame by frame comparison before you do a burn. This would not be a "one click" solution but if you get a winning backup it may be worth it.

I begin to appreciate more the predictability of DVD2one after working with these CCE tools.

mpucoder

2nd May 2003, 03:47

This is why internally transcoding is almost a must for NTSC. The flags you are talking about interact, and must be replicated exactly. Actually, they are the same flags, TFF (Top Field First) and RFF (Repeat First Field) are used for pulldown. Provided your material is 100% FILM CCE should work, slightly lower percentage can use force film. But lower than that, as in ST-TNG hybrids, and you cannot do this with an external encoder (not without much more work to convert video to film, film to video, or process the film and video elements seperately). One solution would be for someone to write a program to replicate the RFF and TFF flags of the original into the re-encoded video (pulldown blindly establishes a sequence, and can only succeed with 100% FILM)

mrbass

2nd May 2003, 04:48

Originally posted by mpucoder
One solution would be for someone to write a program to replicate the RFF and TFF flags of the original into the re-encoded video (pulldown blindly establishes a sequence, and can only succeed with 100% FILM)

Can't we just crop, errrrrrr..hmm trim off those intro sections that are interlaced and any remaining parts after credits that are interlaced too. I can't believe outta all those SVCDs I did with DVD2SVCD I only once in awhile ran in an issue and all of them were with NTSC DVDs.

monomer

2nd May 2003, 18:11

Okay, now I can post my results of 'unchecking Top Field First' and changing the min/max bitrates to 1000/7552... in a nutshell, doesn't work for me!

When I unchecked the 'Top Field First' option I got horrible results. There are 'new' artifacts I've never seen before, ever... lettering bounces up and down and certain patterns in the background (like the bark on a tree in the background or sand etc.) will move or creep around (this might not be quite as noticeable on a TV screen). And fast motion is not always very smooth. So basically, it looks like 'ka ka'! I would say, definitely do leave 'Top Field First' checked. Also for the first time ever, my final file size came out too big (4.39Gb) so I'm not going to mess with min/max bitrates anymore either. BTW, I tried this twice, both movies ended up looking like 'hell' and were over-sized to boot.

I think the best choices for now are to uncheck ForceFilm and 2:3 if you want the best player compatibility because I don't think anyone can possibly see those slight artifacts in frames 3 and 4 at normal viewing speed. Otherwise do check ForceFilm and 2:3 and have no artifacts but screwed up time duration displays... its just a matter of personal preference, I guess. Oh and so far I've not yet experienced any audio sync problems... nada!

SOME OPTIONAL READING:
What I just learned last night...
Last night, I did some more reading (in the 'CCE Basic' manual to be precise) and I think I know why unchecking ForceFilm and 2:3 seem to create those artifacts only in frames 3 and 4 (out of 5) and why the time display is screwy if you do check those options...
Film is 24fps and NTSC is (lets just 'round it' for now) 30fps. That means fields from 4 frames (of film) must be arranged to come up with 5 frames (for NTSC). And so two of the five frames end up being combined fields from two different moments (frames) in time. These are frames 3 and 4. If you do not check ForceFilm and its inverse (which is 2:3 pulldown) CCE will assemble the 5 frames first and then compress/re-encode each of the 5 frames... so frames 3 and 4 go though this process and come out, as mrbass put it, "whacked". However if you check ForceFilm and 2:3, CCE just uses the original 4 frames of the film to compress/re-encode and it comes out clean... so now the '2:3 pulldown' puts the 'flags' back in so your DVDplayer will build the 5 frames needed for video (out of the 4 clean re-encoded frames). The CCE manual says this is more efficient since you are compressing/re-encoding 4 frames instead of 5frames... a savings of 25% (though it would seem like 20% from my calcuations) or a 25% increase in quality since there are 25% less frames to compress. I also found out that AVI files do not have a timecode... evidently the original timecodes are removed in the DVD2AVI process. And AVI files is what CCE is using... so when its re-encoding 4frames (instead of the 5frames the original timecode was based on) CCE "generates a timecode and embeds it into the MPEG stream" (quotes the CCE manual). I'm sure this 'timecode' is what the DVDplayer uses to display time and why the time duration is always short by about 20-25%. Of course if we instead leave ForceFilm and 2:3 unchecked then CCE would be compressing all 5frames and so its generated timecode would be correct for ~30fps and it is.

If you've gotten this far, tell me what you think.

mrbass

2nd May 2003, 19:16

very well put monomer. I understood a little..hehe.

ok I've done 2 or 3 tests with all 8 options checked except Upper Field first wasn't checked. My next test will be all 8 options checked and see how it goes. I need those subs in synch.

monomer

2nd May 2003, 19:43

mrbass... just out of curiosity, what are you using for your display? and what kind of a DVDplayer are you using? software and/or standalone? Heck, I'm even interested in why you must have subtitles?

monomer

2nd May 2003, 23:08

Just did a calculation on 2 movies and checking both ForceFilm and 2:3 Pulldown shortens the duration time by EXACTLY 20%. My theory has been confirmed... jzaman could you verify. Turn the times into all minutes and the calculation is simple... Thanks

Now that I know what's going on with DVD2DVD-R, I'm going choose ForceFilm and 2:3 and just live with the 'bogus' times... unfortunately I am now relegated to using PowerDVD. If only Zoomplayer could handle the timecode mis-match... oh well.

thop

2nd May 2003, 23:23

I've been wondering does all the crazy stuff you guys are talking about in the last 20 posts only apply to NTSC? I'd really like to encode some movies with DVD2DVD-R but all those flags and options scare me off pretty good :)

I wonder if it's possible to make a tool that can CCE with the simplicity of DVD Shrink.

Mako

3rd May 2003, 04:03

yea with PAL your on easy street!
mmmmmm pal.;)

jzaman

3rd May 2003, 05:28

monomer:
"Just did a calculation on 2 movies and checking both ForceFilm and 2:3 Pulldown shortens the duration time by EXACTLY 20%. My theory has been confirmed... jzaman could you verify. Turn the times into all minutes and the calculation is simple... Thanks"

If I go with Forcefilm/2:3 pulldown I have one of my DVD players choking on scene to scene navigation. I can live with the time problem but the navigation compatibility problem is hard to swallow. Generally in the past when one of my players choke it was because it balked at imperfections in the DVD structure or I had a bad burn. I have been burning DVD's for the last three months that play on all of the players I throw them on with my burning method and all of the "one click" solutions highlighted in this forum. I hate to backtrack even if I like the encoding prowess of CCE Basic more than the other approaches. I guess I can discount the results on my Sony DAv c700 but it has been played everything else that I loaded on it without flaw. It is not a problem or DVD-R sensitive player. I have used it to evaluate DVD2one, DVDxcopy, DDV95copy, and IC copies. I can confirm the 20% time reduction but why does the navigation get screwed up for me? If you get a chance to do Star Wars: Attack of the Clones then tell me your exact settings and I'll repeat it. If a technique works then it should be repeatable.

mrbass

3rd May 2003, 05:47

are you doing it with pulldown 0.99d or pulldownmod 0.0.1 by Bach?

jzaman

3rd May 2003, 06:13

mrbass:
I downloaded the Bach pulldownmod.exe from your mirror site and I still had navigation problems. I renamed it to pulldown.exe and ran DVD2DVD-R as usual. It would freeze as I navigated from scene to scene with a remote control. This occured with Grey Zone, Star Wars II and Red Dragon so I cut my losses. If the Sony DAV c-700 was a problem DVD player then I would ignore it. It does play fine in my Sony 715 that resides in my living room. I would relax my standards if the Sony DAV was an anomaly but it has been a consistent predictor of semi-compatible DVD backups in the past.

monomer

3rd May 2003, 07:09

jzaman...
Your Sony DAV is probably 'choking' on the same thing Zoomplayer is. Though I don't know for sure what that is, my best guess is that its the 'bogus' "timecode being embedded in the MPEG stream" by CCE during the re-encoding. Zoomplayer has a number of capabilities that rely on timing which PowerDVD and my Sony DVP does not. I think that the software decoder in both your DAV and in Zoomplayer rely on that timecode to skip chapters or even just to play properly. I really would rather use Zoomplayer because of its ultra configure-ability as far as aspect ratios are concerned. For instance, I can shift a 2.35 movie to the top of my 16:9 screen so the only black bar is a thick one at the bottom of the screen. This allows me to easily 'skirt' this one bar with a black-velvet curtain and thus increase the contrast of my LCD projector greatly by having the whole 2.35 picture surrounded by black-velvet (the black-velvet acts as a 'black hole' as far as reflected light is concerned... any light 'spillage' is in effect 'sucked in' by this material and not allow to reflect back into the room.) I'm still torn between the 2 choices we seem to be stuck with... neither is perfect.