DVD2DVD-R

[jzaman]

I use ALL of the "One Click DVD backup solutions" discussed on this forum but a comment from MedicineMan inspired me to throw this in for discussion. With DVD2DVD-R and CCE Basic we have another "One Click" option that should be included in this forum. This solution is ideally suited for larger(6 gb+)movie only copies but it can also be creatively used to augment other approaches. CCE Basic ($58) and DVD2DVD-R (Donation) does fit the "One Click" market based on ease of use even if the two pass VBR re-encoding can take several hours. Though it is very German http://www.dvd2dvd-r.de
You can find an English forum at the site.
http://www.dvd2dvd-r.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=eBoard&file=forumdisplay&fid=13

Maybe Chatwalker or Tommkill (DVD2DVD-R author and DVD2DVD-R moderator) can join in and show their faces.

Without trashing other programs or authors, this can be a starting point for users to post their comments on the DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic combo. Anyone out there with anything to share?

[mpucoder]

No one's going to squash discussion of DVD2DVDR, but, since it depends on an external program, it does not belong with the other programs here.

[jzaman]

mpucoder:

All these programs depend on external programs. DVD Decrypter and Nero are external programs. Yes. It does require the CCE Basic engine but in one click it decrypts, calls the CCE engine and scripts out everything to create a final size from 4.33-4.36 GB. That is actually 1 click less than the other programs. If I don't put it here I don't know where it should go. If the category was "One click DVD backup solutions with built in transcoding/encoding" then I would concur. However, I do not mod this forum so I was not involved in the category creation nor do I intend any disrespect.:)

[mpucoder]

I'm not really sure where it belongs, either. Programs here, so far, contain their own transcoder/encoder, and do not require CCE, ReMPEG2, or TMPGEnc. The DIF4U and DoCCE4U are similar in certain respects, but are more like gui's. It is not authoring, so it doesn't go there.
I guess for now it stays here, but we really wanted to avoid making yet another area where CCE is discussed.

[jzaman]

I knew I shouldn't have started a thread with the version number on the Subject title. DVD2DVD-R is now version 1.48.


http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/DVD2DVDR_148.exe

Thanks to mrbass for providing this mirror site for the download.

[mpucoder]

Easy enough to change if you started the thread, just edit the first post and change the subject.
But if I change the thread title, the thread starter will no longer be able to change the title.

[jzaman]

mpucoder:
Thanks..I left the version number out. I was going to make it DVD2DVD-R Version 1.4x but that would be dated soon.

[jzaman]

monomer, MedicineMan, MisterX or whoever:

I know you folks are using this. What do you think? Is this a One click DVD backup solution? Is it only a tool for 6gb+ movies that you want to preserve like fine wine? Is it worth climbing over the German wall to use? Is it a mutant? Is this thread going to be a soliloquy?...Help!!

[windtrader]

This seems to be a winning combo for me.

I use DVD2ONE and like it very much since it does two things for me quite well.

1) Creates IFO and VOBS much faster than IFOEDIT with a much simpler interface.
2) Shrinks those movies that just don't quite fit on a DVD-R, even after doing a main movie only rip and stripping streams out.

I have read on many, many threads that CCE is the superior engine for "shrinking" video. I did not do this yet due to cost of CCE, encode time, and learning curve.

With this combination, it seems that cost is low (CCE Basic), learning curve is lowered (DVD2DVD-R plus CCE integration), the best quality video, and ease of use "one click".

I loaded DVD2DVD-R 1.48 but get a run-time error '339' on component COMCTL32.OCX on Win2k OS. Any ideas?

Also, any rules of thumbs on the size of original movies that can be compressed and maintain "near original" quality? For me, I will only compress to the degree that I can not visually see any degradation when viewed on a 100" projected image.

Thanks,Don

[monomer]

This has got to be the right forum for DVD2DVD-R and CCE because TOGETHER they are a "one-click" solution to DVD back-ups... and after all, isn't that the criteria. Besides there are so few of us using this combo, the rest of you will never even notice we're here.

jzaman... just a quick note... all the movies I've tried so far work flawless when I leave all the defaults check and only uncheck "progressive frames". No combing, no stutters, no freeze-ups. The movies so far: Terminator, Hamlet, Last of the Mohicans, Out of Sight... Terminator was a heavy weight, weighing in at 6.86Gb stripped. It turned out perfect. I honestly cannot tell it apart from the original... and that's on a ~114" wide screen. So now I'm getting curious as to just how big I can go with this combo. I'm now betting its going to be way over 7Gb.

[mpucoder]

Chatwalker has been a member since July 2002, and last posted 10 days ago in the Development forum.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by windtrader

I loaded DVD2DVD-R 1.48 but get a run-time error '339' on component COMCTL32.OCX on Win2k OS. Any ideas?


Yes..same happened to me...
http://www.imagedig.com/page6.html
All I did was download
http://www.imagedig.com/download/comctl32.ocx
and put it in my c:\winnt\system32 folder
then start | run | regsvr32 comctl32.ocx
and voila done.

[jzaman]

windtrader:
Click your start menu, click Run
At the Run prompt type in regsvr32 comctl32.ocx
Click OK

monomer:
As you know, your 114" screen will show flaws that the relatively dinky screens I have will forgive. I have been religiously studying the first vob from the original with Bitrate Viewer 1.5054 Commercial Version, verifying and matching the settings in the DVD2DVD-R interface and then clicking Go. Sometimes I'll do some Bit Rate calculations and change the suggested defaults but normally the defaults are accurate. The majority of my standalone players are new Sony models so maybe they correct any anomalies from the "progressive frames" setting or maybe I have just been lucky so far. SW2:Attack of the Clones is a 7gb example that is perfect with a 4.36gb final size without any tweaking. All sizes are between 4.33 and 4.36 gb so far no matter what I pass through it. It fine tunes at the second pass. It is typically one click with a two to three hour siesta break. Even though DVD2DVD-R decrypts on the fly I still feel safer using DVD Decrypter in file mode ahead of time and I think it is a little faster in the decryption department. However, I don't think there is actually anything wrong with the DVD2DVD-R decryption.

[mrbass]

concerning that comctl32.ocx error Chatwalker (author of dvd2dvd-r) uploaded a newer version that includes it. That's the only difference. First one was 4.23MB and second version is 4.45MB (both are 1.4.8). No need to download it again if you have it working.
I updated my mirror with the latest version.

I'm not so sure if this app is gonna be that much faster and better to use in a month or so. Seems like NTSC users are screwed since they need to use $20,000 scenarist to author the DVD. PAL users can just happily use IFOEDIT.

Maybe in a month or so http://doitfast4u.doom9.org/ will be just about as simple as DVD2DVD-R is.
see 4/21/03 news "...I plan to rls the new version on the same day that ReAuthorist goes final, and everyone will be able to see what the next level of reauthoring can be like. Lots of significant changes in speed, functionality, and versatility are afoot!"

In the end if NTSC users have to use Maestro, ReelDVD, Scenarist to author the video and audio file then I suppose it's not really a one-click DVD backup solution after all.

[monomer]

Originally posted by mrbass
I'm not so sure if this app is gonna be that much faster and better to use in a month or so. Seems like NTSC users are screwed since they need to use $20,000 scenarist to author the DVD....
....In the end if NTSC users have to use Maestro, ReelDVD, Scenarist to author the video and audio file then I suppose it's not really a one-click DVD backup solution after all.

I feel like I've just walked into the middle of something already in progress and I have no idea what's going on... could you fill me in? I have no idea what you're referring to that is going to happen in a month or so that will change the way I'm currently using DVD2DVD-R to create my back-ups. Please explain... thank you.

[jzaman]

mrbass:

What am I missing? I've done a dozen 6.0+ gb NTSC movies so far with IFOedit for the Authoring mode and every one is near perfect video and audio. I've heard this before but in practice I have not experienced any problems. Please explain.

[mrbass]

ok here's the deal. I've only done two NTSC movies and had zero issues and maybe many will not. I was ready to throw together a guide but because of NTSC not working (supposedly) with IFOEDIT doing the muxing.

I did a search 'IFOEDIT NTSC Remux' and almost all threads were talking about how IFOEDIT didn't like the .m2v file from TMPGEnc but how it worked just fine with REMPG2. I did see one or two points about CCE and not to use IFOEDIT.

Now here's some cut and paste some posts concerning this issue.

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124578&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1120
by sfxwe
"Cons For DVD2DVDr.

1 Long Encoding time
2 Must use a seperate DVD authoring program unless u r doing PAL
3 Must rip subs manually
4 After encoding must burn newly created VOBs to DVD with external program.
5 Movie only no menu or extras "

posted by rob w
Chatwalker says that he may need to alter his calculations (time code) to make subtitles work with NTSC video. He regrets that he has only one NTSC disc and that does not contain subtitles. (Hey, someone send him some discs ).

by wayned16 http://kickme.to/dvd2dvdr
Bach modified a pulldown.exe which according to him fixed the problem but (well let's just not go into it...maybe now it'll never get fixed).
http://wayned1985.proboards17.com/index.cgi?board=DVDChat&action=display&num=1048045179

maybe now it's all fixed who flipping knows
posted by mosh
"It might sound that the pulldown issue isn't the problem it is the mpg decoder that was being used in dvd2dvdr that was causing headaches for NTSC users. If you read the post the person is claiming that there is a conflict with Pulldown and the original encoder dll that was being used in dvd2dvdr. Now if also this was the case it would now mean that you would now have a choice of encoders to use for NTSC so testing could begin to see what encoder is fastest and possibly better to use. "

posted by Vader443
" believe this gentlemen has modified pulldown to fix the ntsc "time" bug. This bug shows up when one tries to author an ntsc with ifoedit. From reading his other posts, everyone thinks there is a bug in ifoedit when authoring an ntsc film. He claims that the bug is in pulldown, not ifoedit.

"If you run a test, make sure you use the old mpeg decoder and not the new one. The new one seems to have other issues with ntsc film files"

posted by NYPlayer
"It is an Ifoedit bug. If I were to use DVD2DVDr to remove audio and subs and there is no encoding required. It is still no good when authored with Ifoedit. The problem has nothing to do with pulldown. It has to do with Ifoedit authoring NTSC!!!!"

I'm not going to go on and on but it seems to me that all Bach was trying to do was help solve dvd2dvd-r issues and for it on dvdrhelp.com forums he gets cussed out literally
"I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that guy is full of monkey shit. If i'm wrong then I'll eat that monkey shit."

It's pretty pathetic too because there's a way to say your point without getting personal about it. Bach DOES NOT even use DVD2DVD-R and was trying to help out debug the code.

Problem is IFOEDIT problem won't get updated since Derrow works for 321 Studios now and Chatwalker still only has one NTSC DVD to test with.

DVD2SVCD never had issues with pulldown.exe because BBMPEG multiplexed (muxed) them together.

Anyway if this is the case of DVD2DVD-R not working with NTSC movies with IFOEDIT I might as well just use DVD2SVCD to get the .m2v and .ac3 files and rip with internal routines.

As he's added support for dvd authoring lately
It's been there for a longtime but he keeps enhancing minor things.
http://www.dvd2svcd.org/Readme.txt
- Bug Fix: External Subtitles not formated properly, could produce an "Access Violation" or a "List index out of bounds" error.

- Enhancement: Chapters are added to the ECL file. Should make the chapter entries when authoring dvd's more precise.

- Enhancement: The chapters is now saved in a maestro compatible
text file, which you can use when dvd authoring. I hope to extend the dvd output options in the next release.

[monomer]

mrbass... so I was right! I DID walk into the middle of something... except it was on another forum.
Fortunately for me, I've yet to experience any problems with DVD2DVD-R/CCE other than 'checking' the wrong option and winding up with combing (which was easily fixed). So far, 5 movies, no problems... ('knock-on-wood'). I'm starting another one right now.

BTW, the long encoding time is no different than encoding with IC7 two or three times to get an appropriate file size. And I never keep any subtitles. DVD2DVD-R decrypts, strips, rips and encodes... For me it does it ALL except for the burn which I use Nero to do.

Oh, and mrbass please do the guide anyway. Since there are some of us who do not have problems with IfoEdit, I'm sure it will be quite useful to many of us.

[jzaman]

mrbass:
Thanks for your summary. I read the entire thread on dvdrhelp forum and always keep an open mind. Without you, MisterX, 2cool, and nyplayer I would not be challenged, educated and entertained in all these forums. However, I can only report on my observations. The next movie I copy with DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic may get so fouled up that I may be singing another tune. I still use dvdxcopy,dvd2one,dvd95copy, and IC for full movie or main movie under 6gb backups.

I jumped into this recently with DVD2DVD-R 1.47, CCE basic 2.67.X, and IMGTools 1.0.0.4 with Nero 5.5.10.15 api. I use DVD Decryptor in file mode, analyze the vobs with Bitrate Viewer before and after 2 pass VBR re-encoding and normally go with the defaults plus mpg2dec2.dll and 32-bit MMX SSE2. I use it for movie only copies when the movie is 6.0+ gb. It averages 2.5-3 hrs with souped up hardware. I use Ulead DVD Toolbox to author my own DV movies and captures but Scenarist would drain my time and budget.

I've done ten movies in a row without a coaster that play perfectly in ten different DVD players including an Emerson model that is my reference for hyper sensitivity. Is my bout of luck with this combo due to using this in Movie only mode without any frills? Maybe it's a dice roll but I'll play til I lose..

[monomer]

Originally posted by jzaman
monomer:
As you know, your 114" screen will show flaws that the relatively dinky screens I have will forgive...
...The majority of my standalone players are new Sony models so maybe they correct any anomalies from the "progressive frames" setting...

jzaman... I've also viewed the 'flawed' movie version on my 17" computer monitor and believe me, if your movies had 'combing' this bad, you'd definitely would notice it! It is that obvious. So there must be something fundamentally different between our set-ups. So far I've been rather reluctant to burn a disc of this 'flawed' version but I think I will do it this weekend and see what it looks like in my Sony standalone (of very recent vintage) when viewed thru my 27" Sony Trinitron (interlaced). I don't want to sound negative but I have a feeling it will still show 'combing'.

mrbass... I'm looking forward to your guide (you are still going to do one, right?)

[windtrader]

Mrbass and jzaman,

Thanks on the OCX problem. Got it working. Next step - I read that the demo version of CCE Basic does not work with DVD2DVD-R. What other options do I have to try the DVD2DVD-R/ encoder combo? I would rather trial something before plunking down money on CCE Basic.

I paid up for DVD2COPY but now find DVDShrink is so far just as nice for free except for a donation.

Thanks for the help. I feel like a real newbie on this one. The problem is German may as well be Greek. Any other sites where I can do so English language research on this thing. It sounds really hot so I am willing to put some time into it to see how much better it is than DVD2COPY and DVDSHRINK. The encoding engine and algorithms are one black box to me.

Don

[jzaman]

monomer:

If you look at the first vob in the original with Bitrate Viewer, is "progressive frames" selected? If the original vob has progressive frames deselected but DVD2DVD-R has it selected then I would vote for Bitrate Viewer. Give me an example of a movie that displays extreme combing with Bitrate Viewer and DVD2DVD-R agreeing on the progressive frame selection. I'll obtain it and check it out. I would think that the final re-encoded vob should match up with the original except for the bit rate distribution but I can be harboring the wrong assumption. We do diverge in two areas: I work off of DVD Decrypter file mode and I use IMGtools 1.0.0.4 with the Nero API in my burns (with Ritek 4x media). I don't know if that makes a difference but I've been fooled in the past...convinced that I had a software problem when it was the media or burn method. Not that we don't have enough variables to deal with ...

:devil:

windtrader:

CCE Basic is only $58. But don't go by me...I've been buying these programs on a shopping spree that is akin to drug addiction. You're on your own. :)

[monomer]

Windtrader... I used the CCE SP Trial Version to test DVD2DVD-R originally and it worked... be aware that this CCE Trial version adds an annoying logo to the movie. Give it a try and if it works for you then purchase CCE Basic... it will also work.

jzaman... Though I've used DVD2DVD-R to decrypt and rip a couple of movies, to tell you the truth, I mostly still use DVD Decrypter because it's much faster. (Also then allows me to 'ogle' the specs in Bitrate Viewer). I've used Bitrate Viewer to 'check-out' several movies (Last of the Mohicans, Terminator) and both are listed as 'progressive'. Based on that alone I've run DVD2DVD-R with 'Progressive Frames' checked and... argh! 'COMBING'!
I then re-run with 'Progressive Frames' unchecked and... tah dah! a perfect, flawless back-up.
And I always preview each 'back-up' movie in IfoEdit's DVDplayer, in Zoomplayer (using Sonic's filters), and in PowerDVD... if it plays okay in all 3 players, THEN I burn with Nero, take the disc up-stairs and check it out on my Sony standalone.

[jzaman]

monomer:

Your results kill my theory of the re-encoded vob having the basic properties of the original vob. We must sometimes create a mutant? If we can't believe our setting detectors (sounds like IC..just kidding!) then we'd need a way to cull out the mutants. Nothing is ever neat <grumble,grumble>!!

[monomer]

It's got to be more than: some movies are just 'odd-balls'... I've tried all 5 movies with and without 'progressive frames' checked and all 5 came out the same... 'progressive frames' checked = 'combing'... 'progressive frames' unchecked = flawless copy
2 out of the 5 had Bitrate Viewer saying they were progressive (I never did checked the other 3). I've just finished "Black Hawk Down" with 'progressive frames' checked because DVD2DVD-R advised me to... 'combing' big time! I'm now re-doing it with 'progressive frames' unchecked... I'll know in another couple of hours, but I bet you it comes out perfect.

[jzaman]

monomer:

If it was a general rule then I could live with it. Attack of he Clones is progressive frames but it exhibits no combing flaws. I'll do it again without progressive frames selected and compare.

[monomer]

jzaman... I'm as perplexed as you are... at least in your case Bitrate Viewer and the DVD2DVD-R defaults agree, so for you its all logical. So far for me its been simple... leave the defaults and just uncheck 'progressive frames'. If this ever fails, its back to the 'drawing board' for me (which means the 'trial and error' method of finding a solution).
Just out of curiousity: which software DVD player(s) are you using?

UPDATE: Just finished Black Hawk Down... the movie is perfect (original 6.63Gb stripped > final size 4.37Gb and it took 4 hours 4 minutes to process)

[mrbass]

Originally posted by monomer
It's got to be more than: some movies are just 'odd-balls'... I've tried all 5 movies with and without 'progressive frames' checked and all 5 came out the same... 'progressive frames' checked = 'combing'... 'progressive frames' unchecked = flawless copy
2 out of the 5 had Bitrate Viewer saying they were progressive (I never did checked the other 3).

this can't be DVD2DVD-R must have it backwards then. I did well over 1,000 of SVCDs with DVD2SVCD with Progressive checked in CCE.

Basically Progressive should be checked (should be doesn't mean that it works in this program...I may take your word for it)

Linear quantizer and zigzag should be unchecked.

Upper field first should be checked ...only uncheck if it's interlaced like home mini-DV footage. Is PAL interlaced it's been so long. Anyway see CCE manual.
http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2svcd/dvd2svcd_advref.html#cce

[Slick]

Hi.
I gave Dvd2Dvd-r a try last night on two Pal movies.
I got an error on both movies at the same point in IFOedit.
the error was "too many frames dropped"

anyone else had this?

everything was left as default & only English Audio & subs selected.

[Artur]

I´ve been using Dvd2dvdr for about 4 months and had no probs. so far!!
I beliave it´s a great program and in my opinon it´s a one click program.
@Slick, what are the movies you trying to do? Are they your first experience with DVD2DVDR? If so, maybe you neede to instal it again.
Seeyyaa!

[darrellw]

could someone please confirm for me that this program is NOT suitable for backing up episode DVD's, due to it's lack of MENU
cheers
darrell

[jzaman]

monomer:

Re-encoded SW2:Attack of the Clones with progressive frames unchecked. This changes Frame Type: progressive to Frame Type: Interlaced. It also looked excellent to my eyes. I checked it with component video in to a progressive DVD player. I thought it exhibited more flicker but its hard to see straight this early in the morning. I have to go to work today (my real job) so I'll check in later.

[jzaman]

darrellw:

I think it is more suited to a "main movie only" copy.

[Artur]

Originally posted by darrellw
could someone please confirm for me that this program is NOT suitable for backing up episode DVD's, due to it's lack of MENU
cheers
darrell
That´s right, " Main Movie " only.

[Slick]

Originally posted by Artur
@Slick, what are the movies you trying to do? Are they your first experience with DVD2DVDR? If so, maybe you neede to instal it again.
Seeyyaa!

Hi Artur

Yes this the first time I've used DVD2DVDR.
the movies I tried were "Guru" & "Signs"

I'm using CCE 2.5 as encoder.

I'll try your suggestion & re-install.

Cheers

[monomer]

Originally posted by Slick
Hi.
I gave Dvd2Dvd-r a try last night on two Pal movies.
I got an error on both movies at the same point in IFOedit.
the error was "too many frames dropped"

anyone else had this?

everything was left as default & only English Audio & subs selected.

Slick... I don't know about those subtitles, buddy... in the 'humongous' thread over at the 'dvdrhelp' forum, (the thread mrbass linked to in an earlier posting) many are having problems with subtitles and IfoEdit et al. Since I have no need for subtitles I've always selected 'none'... this could be the reason I've never experience any problems with IfoEdit. Check it out.
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124578&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1120

darrellw... 'movie only' is all I've ever done

[jhmac]

Was is combing? Is that a kind of flicker as the camera moves around?
I don't notice it on the pc through powerdvd just on the standalone?

[monomer]

'Combing' is when the edges of moving objects resemble the teeth of a comb. This is due to the interlacing of two fields (alternating lines) that were taken at different moments in time. Static (motionless) objects do not comb... the faster an object moves the greater this 'combing' effect. This flaw is sometimes referred to under the larger general heading of 'interlacing artifacts'.

Your PC does not play your movie 'interlaced' but rather as 'progressive' (... meaning instead of creating a frame using alternating lines, the whole frame is being shown or all the lines are created in order - progressively) On the other hand your standalone and TV might be showing you 'interlaced' or 'progressive' depending on your equipment capabilities.

BTW, moving objects can appear motionless 'on-stage' but are actually moving because the camera angle is changing (... thus any camera movement can also cause objects to comb)

[windtrader]

I have DVD2DVD-R up and running thanks to your support! The other bits are installed as well: (Ifoeidt, CCE, and bitrateviewer).

While I wait... the how to guide here: http://users.pandora.be/DVD2DVD-R/UK-DVD2DVD-R.htm
has a bunch of IFOEDIT steps after the transcoding.

If these additonal manual steps (many) are required I'm not sure how y'all calling this a one step process? I am doing NTSC rips.

DVDSHRINK and DVD2ONE are one click for me. Am I missing something about DVD2DVD-R?

Update - after the audiocheck is complete, I get a message saying DVD2AVI is starting, not CCE. ?? I have specified the CCE cctsp.exe file in the MPEG encoder box.

Thanks,
Don

[mrbass]

Just so were all on the same page these are the options you should set for most NTSC DVDs. Please correct me if I'm wrong. http://NTSC settings (http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/ntscdvds.png)

DVD2SVCD autodetects this stuff so it's usually a no brainer.

Only time you should unchecked progressive frame is for a concert or music dvd and sometimes a documentary.

[windtrader]

Mrbass,

I used BitRate Viewer and took the values from there and put them in DVD2DVD-R.

The movie I am doing now has BitRate Viewer values of:

Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

Not the same as your settings.

[mrbass]

When you are unsure (I'm not almost ALWAYS) NTSC film is progressive and not interlaced. DO NOT make the mistake of using the freeware limited version of bitrate viewer. It works just don't get confused.
http://www.tecoltd.com/bitratev.htm

Always load then SECOND file in the VTS
here's examples
You have to find out what is your main movie VTS set.
VTS_01_2.VOB
VTS_02_2.VOB
VTS_03_2.VOB
VTS_04_2.VOB
VTS_05_2.VOB

don't load VTS_05_1.VOB

Why? If you load VTS_05_1.VOB for example the it'll report INTERLACED which is true for the very beginning frames ONLY and not true through the movie. By loading a second your analyzing the MOVIE and not INTRO part which will be PROGRESSIVE usually.

BTW it takes 2 mins to fully analyze 1GB file when doing it directly from the DVD-ROM but just waiting 10 to 20 secs is all you need to wait to get the info you need. I'll only use it on extreme cases of concert dvds or oddball dvds that I'm unsure of.

[Artur]

Originally posted by windtrader
I have DVD2DVD-R up and running thanks to your support! The other bits are installed as well: (Ifoeidt, CCE, and bitrateviewer).

While I wait... the how to guide here: http://users.pandora.be/DVD2DVD-R/UK-DVD2DVD-R.htm
has a bunch of IFOEDIT steps after the transcoding.

If these additonal manual steps (many) are required I'm not sure how y'all calling this a one step process? I am doing NTSC rips.

DVDSHRINK and DVD2ONE are one click for me. Am I missing something about DVD2DVD-R?

Update - after the audiocheck is complete, I get a message saying DVD2AVI is starting, not CCE. ?? I have specified the CCE cctsp.exe file in the MPEG encoder box.

Thanks,
Don

DVD2AVI will create a file recognized by CCE, just then CCE will start!!
Seeyyaa!

[monomer]

Windtrader... I've not yet had the time to fully read your link, though I definitely intend to... let me just say that when DVD2DVD-R is done there will be NOTHING left for you to do except burn your 'TS' files

Mrbass... I agree that something is amiss but I only know what's been working for me and I got there through a massive 'trial-and-error' type of learning process... (which is a very slow and tedious way to learn!) With the settings you've proposed I get a movie that looks good and plays on both my computer and my standalone (think interlaced) BUT... it will freeze or stutter or go out-of-sync if I try to 'jump' either forwards or backwards in the movie (I often can get away with little jumps of <5 minutes)... jzaman also experienced this under those same settings. If I turn-off '2:3 pulldown' the movie plays and works properly EXCEPT all motion is slightly blurred when compared directly to the original. If I uncheck 'ForceFilm' I now get 'combing' big time! If I further uncheck 'progressive frames' I now get my perfect movie. I wish I knew what was going on but I don't... I can only tell you what my experiences have been.

[windtrader]

mrbass-
"DO NOT make the mistake of using the freeware limited version of bitrate viewer. It works just don't get confused."

June 30, 2002 is the timestamp on the version of bitrate viewer i am using now. What do I need to be careful of?

I used the first VOB, not the second. The values in my last post came from the first vob.

artur - the DVD2AVI step finished and CCE is going now. It seems to be going pretty fast, estimated 2 hours total.

[mrbass]

ok I stand corrected ...it sure seems that DVDs differ. As far as progressive though that is still true for NTSC

But I guess it's always good to use that bitrate viewer to set the parameters of which field first, zigzag or alternate scan,etc.


[Red Dragon R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive


[DrumLine R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive


[Rounders R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9001600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 9
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Progressive

[I Am Sam R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9801600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

[Fast and the Furious R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

[Crouching Tiger R1 NTSC]
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

[Artur]

" artur - the DVD2AVI step finished and CCE is going now. It seems to be going pretty fast, estimated 2 hours total " wroted by windtrader
That´s the first pass in Multipass VBR!! It will do a second one if you selected it like i told. Don´t take the dvd disc out of the dvd-rom untill IFOEDIT creat the VOBS ready to burn!!!
Seeyyaa!

[mrbass]

Originally posted by windtrader
mrbass-
"DO NOT make the mistake of using the freeware limited version of bitrate viewer. It works just don't get confused."

June 30, 2002 is the timestamp on the version of bitrate viewer i am using now. What do I need to be careful of?



I worded that way wrong...I meant to say "Be careful when using...blah blah and don't choose the first vob of the VTS (Video Title Set) of the main movie. Always choose the 2ND or 3rd, etc.

[windtrader]

artur, mrbass -

The rip step took nearly 40 minutes. If it is really just doing a decrypt pass, can't I do the rip using another faster ripper and then skip the rip step in DVD2DVD-R?

Don

[Slick]

Originally posted by monomer
Slick... I don't know about those subtitles, buddy... in the 'humongous' thread over at the 'dvdrhelp' forum, (the thread mrbass linked to in an earlier posting) many are having problems with subtitles and IfoEdit et al. Since I have no need for subtitles I've always selected 'none'... this could be the reason I've never experience any problems with IfoEdit. Check it out.
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124578&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1120

darrellw... 'movie only' is all I've ever done

Cheers Monomer

I will try with no subs. I dont use them anyway.;)

[monomer]

Originally posted by windtrader
artur, mrbass -

The rip step took nearly 40 minutes. If it is really just doing a decrypt pass, can't I do the rip using another faster ripper and then skip the rip step in DVD2DVD-R?

Don

Don... I know you didn't address this to me but I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth anyway... hope you don't think me rude.

The decrypting and ripping with DVD2DVD-R I find very slow indeed... you might be better off using another 'decrypt&rip' tool. I think the 2 passes that Artur is referring to is during the encoding... this is where the majority of time is spent (depending upon your system, anywhere from 2 hours to 4 hours or possibly even longer!) Depending on what you're 'running' the total process from decrypt/rip to burn will surely be over 3.5 hours. Hang in there.

[Artur]

Originally posted by monomer
Don... I know you didn't address this to me but I just thought I put in my 2 cents worth anyway... hope you don't think me rude.

The decrytping and ripping with DVD2DVD-R I find very slow indeed... you might be better off using another 'decrypt&rip' tool. I think the 2 passes that Artur is referring to is during the encoding... this is where the majority of time is spent (depending upon your system, anywhere from 2 hours to 4 hours or possibly even longer!) Depending on what you're 'running' the total process from decrypt/rip to burn will surely be over 3.5 hours. Hang in there.

That´s right, the 2 passes are in the encoding with CCE! By the way, in DVD2DVDr version 1.3.8 you can´t choose the files from HD, you must Choose them from the Dvd disc. However in the last version, that i didn´t downloaded yet, a friend told me we can choose files from HD. Is this true??
Seeyyaa!

[mrbass]

yes you can rip with DVDDecrypter in file mode or .iso mode. Why would you want to do .iso? If you have missing subtitles then try .iso. That's how they recommend to do it with DoitFast4U anyway.

Only downside to ripping with dvddecrypter is need another 6 to 8GB hd space and you have to start DVD2DVD-R once it's done ripping.

[jzaman]

artur:

The newer versions 1.4x (currently 1.48) allows direct from hard drive re-encoding. Typically I do these steps:

The steps I take:

(1) Rip the full disk with DVD Decryptor in file mode. I'll need it all anyway until I decide what program to use.
(2) Determine what approach to take based on the main movie size (dvd2one,dvd95copy,ic or DVD2DVD-R). Sometimes I want one super main movie AND one acceptable full movie with menus and extras.
(3) Check the original vobs with Bitrate Viewer (Commercial version $30)and yes, mrbass is totally correct, you can get fooled by the first vob.
(4) Match the settings from the Bitrate analysis in DVD2DVD-R. Normally I select the main movie and anything English.
(5) Click Go. Come back in two and one half hours.
(6) Burn. (I use ImgTools 1.0.0.4 which utilizes Nero API. It doesn't need video_ts or audio_ts folders premade, it reallocates the VIDEO_TS structure if needed, burns in high compatibility mode and refuses to burn if you are oversized. I use the same burn method for all the programs except IC to rule out burn related differences.)
(7) Find time to actually watch the movie! (That's where the two and one half hours can come in handy...)

[jzaman]

mrbass:
I do agree that it is a good practice to take Bitrate samples from more than one vob and I am heeding your advice.
However, I generally do use Bitrate Viewer Full Edition to check more than the first vob of the main movie pgc to be safe but typically if the first movie only vob is progressive or interlaced then the rest are. Do you mean that you have to be extra careful not to click on one of the trailers or extras that are often interlaced or do you often find progressive/interlaced hybrids in a movie only pgc section?

**Added later: I found some DVD's after this specific post was made that start off in interlaced but they are essentially progressive in subsequent vobs. mrbass is correct - use Bitrate Viewer on the second vob or later to get a true picture of the encoding settings to cover this situation. Thanks mrbass.**

monomer:
I'm still puzzled about your progressive frames thing. So far without exception the Bitrate Viewer has spoken the bloody truth. However, the DVD2DVD-R analyzer does miss the boat some times. For example, GUYS and DOLLS movie vobs are interlaced but the DVD2DVD-R analyzer enables progressive frames as a default. The interlaced re-encode does look better than the progressive frames re-encode. Another point to add fuel to the fire is that I analyzed vobs in THE GREY ZONE as an example of a very large movie that is ideal for DVD2DVD-R. My clearest copy (movie only) was based on the Bitrate Viewer analysis - progressive frame, non-linear quantizer scale, no upper field first. I just unclicked the Upper Field first and the progressive frames was checked by default. Analysis of the same movie transcoded/encoded with other programs:

Original DVD progressive
dvd2one rendition progressive
dvd95copy rendition progressive
IC rendition progressive
dvdxcopy rendition progressive

If there is a bug in the DVD2DVD-R progressive frame setting I have not experienced it yet but that is not to say it doesn't exist.

[windtrader]

artur - like szajman says 1.4.8 lets you rip directly from HD.

mrbass- I was suggesting using dvddecrypter to rip in file mode, not iso. The only reason being to speedup the decrypt step. But the manual intervention most likely

jzaman, monomer, etal -

With a couple new tools in my kit over the past couple days, I am rethinking what my process will be in the spirit of the forum "One click".

My primary objective is

** make the highest quality main movie only backup on one DVD-5, with the least amount of manual involvement and intervention. Speed is a secondary issue.
**

I have DVDDECRYPTER, DVD2ONE, DVDSHRINK, DVD2DVD-R as the main tools; IFOEDIT, BITRATE, and NERO as support tools.

Steps
1) Analyze source to determine strategy.
2) Rip and transcode as necessary
3) Burn to DVD-R

Determine size of main movie.
Look for largest set of VOBS in the VTS list.

If Main Movie vob set is less that 4.7gb, then rip using DVD2ONE and burn with Nero. Seems to be the fastest and so far satisfactory integrity of the generated IFO and vobs.

If between 4.7gb and 5.7gb, load DVDSHRINK or DVD2ONE to strip streams keeping just main audio track. If size of main movie and audio stream is less than 5.5gb, use either DVDSHRINK or DVD2ONE to compress to fit on DVD-R. Burn with Nero. So far I have been pretty happy with quality of the DVD2One results with source less than 5.5gb.

If greater than 5.7gb, assume DVD2DVD-R/CCE route. Run BitRate to analzye movie vob, get the specs and load into DVD2DVD-R. Select main movie, single audio stream, specify the settings, and GO. Burn with Nero. Seems to be the very best transcoding method, producing the best quaility reduced sized video stream, and compromising the least of all options available today.

This seems like it should work most of the time. I still need to figure out what adjustments I need to make for those other things that happen like both a WS and PS version on a sigle disc (need to determine which one is WS), multple PGC, and alternate angles,etc.

I'm really happy and groovin' since I feel like I'm on the home stretch to achieve my stated objective. Only until the past couple months with some of these new tools has this been reasonably achievable.

[mrbass]

@jzaman
obviously you don't check any VTS .vobs that aren't your Main Movie since that's all were encoded here with dvd2dvdr.

All I'm saying is don't use the very first .vob in the VTS main movie set

sometimes it's VTS_0X_0.VOB and other times it's VTS_0X_1.VOB
so to be safe always just use VTS_0X_2.VOB

I'm gonna lay low now and do tons of expermimenting and if indeed IFOEDIT is a lost cause for remuxing NTSC DVDS then maybe in a couple months (if they add multiple audio and subs) to dvdlab $99 then we can use that to author instead of $20,000 scenarist.
here's a beta version dated I think April 22nd or so.
http://www.mediachance.com/files/dvdlabup0421.exe

DVDLab was mentioned by doom9 in the news dated 4/14.
http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/

Ulead DVD Workshop also might be an option as I guess now it reportedly handles AC3. Not sure about subs, etc. though.
http://www.mmbforums.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=33

edit: stupid me...I'm getting ahead of myself...if we were to use the two above programs I think we'd be screwed with no subs and chapters are an issue too. Alright gonna concentrate on the IFOEDIT / NTSC issue at hand.

[windtrader]

For the purposes of analyzing and determining the DVD2DVD-R setttings, do I need to get the commercial version of BitRate Viewer. According to the website, it did not look like I need the added features.

thx don

[mrbass]

Originally posted by windtrader
For the purposes of analyzing and determining the DVD2DVD-R setttings, do I need to get the commercial version of BitRate Viewer. According to the website, it did not look like I need the added features.

thx don

no you do not...freeware version never expires and it suffices for what were trying to achieve. If you want to check out all those features then by all means support the author and give your euro 29.

[jzaman]

The full version of Bitrate Viewer adds a few features like:
(for the benefit of forum travelers, I took the liberty of fixing any typos or Hungarian-English translations)

GOP structure information
Seconds information
Printing ability
Simple I frame trimming for elementary streams
Can save the once read stream's data and reload that later,
you do not need the original stream anymore.
Can modify some basic parameters of MPEG stream.
Scene change detection and Variable GOP Pattern can be detected
Bitrate Calculation tool
Frame compression/quantization scale view
AVI file reading if the compression is standard MPEG
User support that is not available for the freeware version users.

http://www.tecoltd.com/bitratev.htm

However, the non-commercial version does do the job of validating the DVD2DVD-R mpeg encoding settings.

[mpucoder]

This may be true in PAL land as well as here. Many NTSC DVDs now contain newer computer generated studio logo's, which are interlaced. This is what (I believe) MrBass is warning about.

[monomer]

Originally posted by windtrader

... If Main Movie vob set is less that 4.7gb, then rip using DVD2ONE and burn with Nero...

I assume you meant "compress" or "transcode" rather than "rip" using DVD2One. If the whole DVD is less than 4.7Gb then why not rip with DVD Decrypter in ISO mode and then 'write' directly from Decrypter again in ISO mode? Now if the stripped movie is less than 4.7Gb but the entire DVD is not... then I too use DVD2One. Anyway, it seems like a good plan you've got... mine is not too much different from yours.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by mpucoder
This may be true in PAL land as well as here. Many NTSC DVDs now contain newer computer generated studio logo's, which are interlaced. This is what (I believe) MrBass is warning about.

I'm only going based on what others have said. I, myself, haven't experienced any problems but haven't done a ton yet to know for sure.

I'm gonna try to PM Bach about this but I really want to get to the bottom of this thread.
http://wayned1985.proboards17.com/index.cgi?board=DVDChat&action=display&num=1048045179

Was NTSC bug related to the older MPEGDecoder.dll and now that DVD2DVDR is using the newer MPEG2DEC2.dll does that solve the problem. Who knows...people say the bug lies completely within IFOEDIT and even Ifoedit 0.96 doesn't fix it so I guess it'll never get fixed if that's the case.

Or is this related to pulldown.exe

[jzaman]

mpucoder:

mrbass makes a very good point as usual. If only there was a new frame type setting like auto detect that is reliable. Then a progressive/interlaced hybrid scenario would be resolved on the fly while I'm downing a beer. By the way...thanks to you and this forum for allowing this exploration. I am learning a lot from everyone passing through here and appreciate the patience of the more experienced diehards.

[windtrader]

I assume you meant "compress" or "transcode" rather than "rip" using DVD2One. If the whole DVD is less than 4.7Gb then why not rip with DVD Decrypter in ISO mode and then 'write' directly from Decrypter again in ISO mode?

Well. I understand if the movie and other selected bits fits without any transcoding, DVD2ONE will copy it without any compressing. It only transcodes if it determines that it needs to shrink it down to fit on a DVDR.

I always remove alternate audio tracks and multiple angles even on short movies. It is just a habit for me to do the same thing to minimize bad copies.

You are right - I could use ISO mode in DVDDecrypter but then I get the menu and the rest which is not what I desire. A lot of people like the menu vobs, extras and such. The menu navigation and all the other warning crapola is a pain in the ass to me.

I used to use the DVDDECRYPTER - IFOEDIT combo to get a set of files to burn before DVD2ONE. I decrypted the main movie VTS vobs and IFO along with the VIDEO_TS.IFO. Then I used IFOEDIT to create new IFOS and fix all the pointers. Then a GET VTS. Then a burn using Nero. The DVD2ONE method does everything except for the burn in on step.

Don

[darrellw]

cheere folks for confirming that it is main movie only
darrell

[jhmac]

DVD2DVDR v1.4.8 I have been trying to encode a movie when I press go I get a not enough space on drive (17GB free on drive) error in the log. I noticed this goes away if I uncheck force film. Has anyone else had this prob.

[mrbass]

If you do force film and pulldown then you need approximately 4GB more of space.

[mrbass]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=49536

Can anyone get a hold of this pulldownmod.exe anywhere? I'd like to try it out too. I just did Harry Potter and sure enough with IFOEDIT it was out of synch near the end of the movie. I choose force film and 2:3 pulldown.

[jzaman]

mrbass:
What happens when you don't enable Force Film and 2:3 pulldown and just go with the encoder settings validated by Bitrate Viewer?

I haven't done Harry potter so I can't comment but I've screened a few movies to an audience (friends) and we can't see any sync or speedup effects at the end or lost frames that are discernable. This doesn't mean that it won't happen. I've emailed some people to see if I can get a hold of pulldownmod.exe and if I get it I'll privately send it to you.

monomer:
I know that you have good eyes so I'm sure you would have seen the lost frames or sync/speedup problems. What is your experience with this?

[mrbass]

you have to do pulldown on NTSC

I'm gonna try DoPulldown perhaps
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=49034

http://docce4u.panthersden.com/

[jzaman]

mrbass:
monomer and I are using DVD2DVD-R 1.48 and CCE Basic 2.67X (NTSC exclusively) and we are not using 2:3 pulldown or Force Film and all is looking good. I just wanted to know if you didn't enable Force Film and 2:3 pulldown on Harry Potter and went with the original settings from a Bitrate Viewer analysis what problems do you see. I know that it is recommended but I also know that monomer and I are not hallucinating.

[monomer]

I have not experienced any problems by leaving ForceFilm and 2:3 Pulldown UNchecked. I'm now starting my 7th movie with this combination and there are no sync issues with any of the first 6. Also I never seem to need more than 16Gb of free HDD space available... if I ever do, I'm in big trouble. I only have a 20Gb HDD to work with. (I use two 20Gb HDD in my video set-up.)

jzaman said: "monomer and I are using DVD2DVD-R 1.48 and CCE Basic 2.67X"

...I think this is a very important point to emphasize. If you are not using the Basic version of CCE or the latest version of DVD2DVD-R then our results may very well be quite different. Judging from those monster theads that have been linked to, DVD2DVD-R has changed quite a bit over its various iterations.

jzaman... have you noticed an increase in CCE's encoding time since installing the latest update? I swear its added another half-hour or so to the processing time. Also I've now gotten 2 final files sizes of 4.37Gb.

[darrellw]

anyone know if i
could use DVd2DVDR and IFOEDIT to make backups of episode DVD's
cheers
darrell

[mrbass]

well I'm using CCE 2.50 but does CCE 2.66X version do it's own pulldown within CCE itself? I can't remember. Does CCE Basic also?

[mrbass]

Originally posted by darrellw
anyone know if i
could use DVd2DVDR and IFOEDIT to make backups of episode DVD's
cheers
darrell

episode DVDs you need to look at DoItFast4U and DoCCE4U ....I'm gradually moving there myself perhaps..who knows.

[mrbass]

for those making NTSC backups without doing force film and 2:3 pulldown please load PowerDVD and hit key 'T' and move through frames. Every 3rd or so frame is completely whacked. That's why you need to do pulldown.

Pulldown:
Process converts 24fps film to 29.97fps video by repeating one film frame as three fields, then the next film frame as two fields. This saves time by not having to have CCE encode only 24fps rather than 29.97fps.

[monomer]

Well mrbass you're right...

I just finished a movie with: 'progressive frame' unchecked; ForceFilm unchecked; 2:3 pulldown unchecked

Looks real good when played in ZoomPlayer and PowerDVD... however when advancing the movie 'frame-by-frame' the combined fields in frames 3 and 4 show very slight interlacing artifacts with moving objects. Even on my ~114" wide screen I could never have spotted that without going 'frame-by-frame'... it is quite subtle to be sure. So I 'loaded' up the original and went 'frame-by-frame' through the same scene. It instead has slightly fuzzy frames every so often rather than the interlacing artifacts. I think I prefer the occassional fuzzy frames of the original... so... I'm now doing the same movie again but this time with 'progressive frame', ForceFilm, and 2:3 pulldown all checked. I'll take it 'frame-by-frame' through PowerDVD and I'll also check it in several places for any audio sync problems. I'll try to post my findings in a day or two. (With the semester winding up I'm going to be a little short on free time.)

[jzaman]

I read on a thread that that the pulldown.exe that comes with DVD2DVD-R is actually pulldownmod.exe renamed. Can anyone confirm this?

I have waffled back and worth on the use of Force Film and 2:3 pulldown. I was using it initially but I couldn't SEE the difference on my standalone DVD players without it and I had two problem disks (see below)* so I stopped clicking those options. mrbass pointed out a way to SEE the frame problem through a software DVD player so now I'll pay heed to his advice. Since I did ten copies of different movies without Force Film and 2:3 Pulldown enabled I have some references to compare against. (I bought DVD-R Ritek 4x in a 200 bulk pack for $1.67 each so it only cost me $16.70. It could be worse.)I'll redo a few of them with Force Film and 2:3 pulldown selected and do a more thorough analysis. Thanks mrbass.

* I had a problem last week when I originally selected Force Film and 2:3 pulldown that I refered to in another thread. When I used a remote and went from scene to scene with my Sony DAV-C700 it froze from scene to scene. If I played the whole movie without stopping it worked ok. I am redoing Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones as I type this with pulldown and force film selected. I am hoping that problem was only a fluke. I also have a newer version of CCE Basic and DVD2DVD-R so that may make a difference.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by jzaman
I read on a thread that that the pulldown.exe that comes with DVD2DVD-R is actually pulldownmod.exe renamed. Can anyone confirm this?


no he is using the pulldown 0.99d that is modified by DVD2SVCD. It works fine because it's multiplexed with BBMPEG. I'm gonna try a few and create them with DVD2SVCD then try using IFOEDIT to mux them together. Most I've talked to or read about still use scenarist or maestro. I really want a free way to do this or a cheap way.

Now if the problem is related to that pulldown ..if we can get it do work with DoPulldown.exe (GUI) then Chatwalker can just add that one instead or we need to test out the pulldownmod.exe by Bach to see if that fixes it.

You won't notice synch issues sometimes till like an hour or later into the movie. BTW the new TMPGEnc DVD Author also states sometime to this effect..test out on video clips longer than one hour. I'm sure they say that due to NTSC frame synch issues.

[monomer]

OK, the movie is finished.

In Zoomplayer it stutters badly. However in PowerDVD it plays perfectly... and 'frame-by-frame' advance shows it to be exactly the same as the original. Curious thing though, in Zoomplayer when I change from the Sonic filters to the PowerDVD filters it still stutters. I'll have to post this one over on the Inmatrix forum for Zoomplayer. In any case when in PowerDVD I jumped to several places in the movie and there are no sync issues. The audio is timed perfectly throughout the movie. I like to check for these things by watching for a door slam or guns fired or a clanging of swords, etc. and of course obvious lip movements.

I will now burn this movie and try it on my Sony standalone (DVP-NS315)

Added: the movie is 1 hour and 48 minutes in length

[windtrader]

Update on my foray in the DVD2DVDR and CCE (NTSC)

I used what I had laying round What a Woman Wants.

Using DVDSHRINK I collected movie stats: VIDEO 5.45gb uncompressed, AUDIO AC3-6ch. English .38gb Total 5.83gb NTSC R1.

Did three main movie backups.
1:1 main movie copy using DVDDECRYPTER - IFOEDIT.

Compressed main movie using DVD2ONE - fit on one DVD-R (4.38gb)

Compressed main movie using DVD2DVDR/ CCE SP. fit on one DVD-R

All movies copies kept on HD to eliminate any media problems.

NTSC VIDEO results.

1:1 - best (duh)

DVD2ONE was very close to 1:1

DVD2DVD-R - looks like crap and dead last by miles. lots of motion artifacts, pulsing, and smearing. In still scenes the picture was fine, good resolution; but on motion lots of jerking and tearing. Did it twice to make sure, same exact results. I have included a few snaps of the DVD2DVD-R settings and BitRate values that I copied in.

AUDIO results. All seemed fine, did not notice any audio synch problems with CCE; skipped to end and synch was ok.

Edit: I did not play the movie through to the end so maybe the sync could get off if it was played through verses chapter jumping.

Played on Powerdvd and Windvd. Powerdvd performed, windvd was noticably worse.

I have not tried to force progressive and 3:2 pulldown and might do it tonight; nothing to lose.

CCE SP 2.50.01.00
DVDSHRINK V1.03
DVD2ONE V1.1.1
DVD2DVD-R 1.4.8
DVDDECRYPTER 3.1.5.0
IFOEDIT 0.95
POWERDVD 4.0
WINDVD 4
When burning Pioneer DVR-A05 and Ritek G04 4x media.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by windtrader
Update on my foray in the DVD2DVDR and CCE (NTSC)
Did not play at normal play rate through movie.

I have not tried to force progressive and 3:2 pulldown and might do it tonight; nothing to lose.


yep that's the problem doesn't play at the normal rate.
Progressive....almost all Hollywood DVD movies are Progessive so you should have had that checked.

[jzaman]

I finished redoing Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones( 2 hours 20 minutes) following the same procedure I've used before except for selecting 2:3 Pulldown and Force Film. I am using CCE Basic 2.67.01.11 and DVD2DVD-R 1.4.8.

I compared the new rendition with the one I did without Pulldown and Force film selected on two Sony players:

Sony DAV C-700
pulldown/force film selected:Can not skip from scene to scene (same problem) and movie time progress display counter whacked.
pulldown/force film unselected: no problems

Sony NS715-P
pulldown/force film selected: can skip from scene to scene but the movie time display counter is whacked.
pulldown/force film unselected: no problems

I had a group of people sit through the whole movie last week (the unselected pulldown/force film version) and there were no off sync or visual problems witnessed. I'll do the same thing with the pulldown/force film version created tonight when we have time for another show. (We are all sick of this movie but it is an example of a long movie-7gb and a fast moving one which emphasizes flaws).

The player compatibility problem and time counter problem is worse than the pulldown/Force film cure. I'll forgo the pulldown/force film options until it is fixed. Under the microscope of a software player in frame by frame mode you see the frame problem with pulldown/force film unselected but on the big screen I don't see a difference so far. I guess as long as I am happy and those around me are happy I'll take my chances and wait for a fix.

Hey...I wanted this pulldown/force film thing to work!

[monomer]

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a noise?"

If when watching a movie you can't see any flaws due to "what ever"... is there a flaw?

If you can't see the flaw then for all intents and purposes there is no flaw and only 'anal' type people would still be bothered. Yeah, yeah I know, I'm still messing with ForceFilm and 2:3... now if I could only just get my butt clean enough.:D

[jzaman]

monomer:
The good news is that I won't have to redo the other nine movies I did with Pulldown/Force Film unselected. However, mrbass's whacked frames rap makes me feel like the copies I've made without Pulldown/Forcefilm will manifest a disease down the road. Yeah ... that is REALLY anal. In the same vein, if I was anally worried about operating systems with ticking timebombs then I wouldn't use windows...

[windtrader]

Mrbass

I did not mean to imply the movie did not play back at the normal rate. Here is the edit

Edit: I did not play the movie through to the end so maybe the sync could get off if it was played through verses chapter jumping.

[mrbass]

Yes I'm anal I admit it...but serious it's whacked. I did a screenshot comparison between dvd95copy, dvd2one, and ic7 with movie gladiator. ALL of them looked better than this.

What do I mean by that statement? When I was flipping through most of the frames were about equal quality but DVD2DVD-R flipping thru frames it's UGLY as can be on about every 4th or 5th frame. The aforementioned programs didn't exhibit this kinda of output.

I'm also compared dvdshrink and dvd2one and with dvdshrink about every 5th or so frame was slightly outta whack cuz it only transcoded B frames and not I frames nor P frames.

I've done a few tests with DoPulldown.exe and still trying to get it to look good.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by windtrader
Mrbass

I did not mean to imply the movie did not play back at the normal rate. Here is the edit

Edit: I did not play the movie through to the end so maybe the sync could get off if it was played through verses chapter jumping.

about that....My Harry Potter was 100% in synch...but I forwarded to like the last 20 or so mins of the movie and it was off by about 2 or 3 seconds.

[mrbass]

we can play with this one also if you don't want to use commandline
http://guiguy.wminds.com/downloads/pulldownbatchfe/

[hakko504]

I have not validated your attachment for these reasons: You already got some replys which addressed the possible setups of DVD2DVD-R, so there was no need for those screenshots. Also a rule of thumb is that unless you have specific issuse to resolve you should not post screenshots, most of the time the text description will tell us just as much.

[jzaman]

mrbass,monomer,windtrader:
This puts me in a quandary. I want an easy method for large (6gb+) movie only copies and the "whacked" frames is a serious flaw as well as the scene selection problem and time counter problem while using pulldown/force film. I thought this was going to be a no brainer solution for big movies and now I have my doubts. It is against my nature to throw in the towel but the whole purpose of this revolved around having a "one click" solution. The novelty of constant tweaking is wearing thin. Do you think this will get fixed?

A very discouraged jzaman

[mrbass]

not sure...probably not anytime soon. I tried DVD2SVCD and set all cd sizes to 4480MB but the audio and video came out to 2.89GB. I guess DVD2DVD-R has better file size calculations.

[RB]

I'm using DVD2SVCD for all my DVD-R conversions (CD sizes set to 4490 though) and it works like a charm. Did you possibly forget to raise the max. bitrate to DVD levels? I'm using 9200/1000/8500 (max./min./Max. avg). Also, on the bbMPEG tab, open bbMPEG advanced settings, double click the "~DVD" radio button and uncheck all checkboxes except for "VBR". Then back on the bbMPEG tab, point at an do-nothing batch file for the bbMPEG executable. This way I always get DVD images (using Maestro for authoring) that fill up a DVD-R almost to the last bit.

[windtrader]

Hakko504 - no problem on the image upload.

mrbass et all.

I woke up to another DVD2DVDR/CCE test. This time forcing progressive and 2:3 inverse telecine. Drum roll.... Results SUCK. This set of VOBS are SO bad it took about 3 seconds to see this was total crap.

I am beginning to wonder who the hell ever came up with the idea that CCE was the best encoder, better than DVD2ONE, DVDSHRINK, IC.

There are quite a few adjustable parameters we have not discussed here or fully explored. I am not losing hope yet but someone needs to do some more detailed research on the specific settings and guidelines to set and tune CCE.

I have read a lot of mention that CCE was so great, there must be something to it. Then again nearly all these comments predated the arrival of DVD2ONE, DVDSHRINK, IC.

Maybe it is a new era and these alternate One-Click tools can aggresively compete with CCE's encoding on moderate movies (4.4-5.8 gb). Maybe that is why CCE how offers it multi-thousand encoding enging for fifty bucks. Maybe it sees it future not so rosy anymore as the king of the hill. Maybe most people will figure out what we may be doing ourselves now. CCE = DVD2ONE = IC, etc. Maybe cimemacraft is worried that some of these tools are FREE and way easier to use.

After spending a lot of time on this now and seeing worse results with CCE, I am going into a holding pattern until there is confirmation that CCE is it.

Lastly, I got all backed up in my backup duties this w/e. :-) So, this am I had to do a quick DVDDECRYPTER and it is amazing I got a full movie rip in 10 minutes. CCE had better be REALLY good to go through all the BS. I guess there is always hope.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by RB
I'm using DVD2SVCD for all my DVD-R conversions (CD sizes set to 4490 though) and it works like a charm. Did you possibly forget to raise the max. bitrate to DVD levels? I'm using 9200/1000/8500 (max./min./Max. avg). Also, on the bbMPEG tab, open bbMPEG advanced settings, double click the "~DVD" radio button and uncheck all checkboxes except for "VBR". Then back on the bbMPEG tab, point at an do-nothing batch file for the bbMPEG executable. This way I always get DVD images (using Maestro for authoring) that fill up a DVD-R almost to the last bit.

[MISC TAB]
Input File DVD
Output File MPEG-2

[CD Image]
Don't make Images

[Subtitles]
Check Rip Subtitles
CVD Subtitles
do I even need to do this?

[bbMPEG]
poing bbMPEG(SemiCLI) to fake.cmd
which has
echo done

[AUDIO]
Check Do not convert audio (use source audio)

[Frameserver]
Resize to DVD (720x480/576)
BicubicResize
I edited .avs and took out Bicubic cuz I thot
it's only when you resize it to something other than
the source. Should I have left it in?
Also I had to add Audio()
at the end to prevent CCE from crashing.

[Bitrate]
I put all Between 0 and 999mins and all Use 1 CD size 4480

My Max. 6500 Min. 300 unchecked Min. avg Max. avg 2230

[Encoder]
CCE 2.50 use Multipass VBR 2 passes. I had progressive and zigzag checked
and the rest uncheck in Advanced CCE settings.

I'll try your bitrate settings and try it again.
Only difference was in BBMPEG in advanced I didn't double-click DVD...instead I clicked MPEG2....ok that's probably were I screwed up.

[mrbass]

RB kindly email me that pulldownmod by Bach

http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/pulldownmod.zip

try this instead of the one included with DVD2DVD-R when muxing NTSC with IFOEDIT.

[jzaman]

Substituted pulldownmod for pulldown with the same movie (Star Wars II: Attack of the clones.)

Sony DAV C-700
pulldownmod/force film selected:Can not skip from scene to scene (same problem) and movie time progress display counter whacked.

Sony NS715-P
pulldownmod/force film selected: can skip from scene to scene but the movie time display counter is whacked.

The compatibility problem with my Sony DAV C-700 still exists and the time display still is wrong. However, I have not had time to evaluate the difference in movie quality between pulldown and pulldownmod versions.

Should I have selected "set 'drop frame' flag" to correct the time problem?
Has anyone had any improvement by using pulldownmod (from mrbass mirror site)?

[monomer]

Finished burning movie (Collateral Damage) today... (this was the one with ForceFilm and 2:3 pulldown checked) ... it would stutter in Zoomplayer but worked fine in PowerDVD (sound syncing and all). Well I put the disc in my Sony standalone (DVP NS-315) and it plays okay... chapters skip normally and sound stays in sync... However the time display is off by 20 minutes.

A little while ago I downloaded pulldownmod.zip. Then I just removed pulldown.exe to another file folder and inserted pulldownmod.exe in its place and then renamed it 'pulldown.exe' (I hope that'll do it). And I'm currently processing "Last of the Mohicans". In the morrow I will burn and test and post back my findings.


Food for thought: What other easy choices are there for processing very large (6+Gb) movie files? DVD21 and IC7 do not do them well. With DVD21 anything greater than 5.5Gb will cause it to go in and out of focus and using it for movies over 6+Gb renders them unwatchable. IC7 on the other hand begins to show color 'blotches' that are easily seen in dark scenes and skin tones. Just try Grey Zone or Mulholland Drive or Terminator with either of these programs and you will really see "whacked" picture quality. My only real choice was to make a 1:1 copy and split it across 2 discs. Now I have DVD2DVD-R. These same movies look good on my ~114" movie screen. When watching at normal speed and distances (~10ft) I cannot tell the difference between the original and the copy.

What are the problems associated with DVD2DVD-R copies? 1)If selecting ForceFilm and 2:3 pulldown = I cannot use Zoomplayer, must use PowerDVD instead and my Sony doesn't give the correct time duration of the movie 2)If I don't select ForceFilm and 2:3 = I can use any player and the movie looks good but if I should view it using 'frame advance' I will then see slight interlaced artifacts twice every 5 frames.

So what's the problem? No matter how I look at it, I've got more choices for the 'big movies' than I had before DVD2DVD-R. There will always be DVD21 for the 'little' ones.

jzaman... I've tried every combination of 'flags' and all I ever got was 'big time' stuttering in Zoomplayer but I never tried any of those 'experimental' movies in my other players... why not give it a try and let us know what happens.

[mrbass]

Originally posted by monomer

Food for thought: What other easy choices are there for processing very large (6+Gb) movie files? DVD21 and IC7 do not do them well.

For main movie when it's 5.5GB or 6GB (that is the size it would be after stripping the unwanted audio out of it and only main movie.

You can split to TWO dvds with dvdtoolbox freeware

or you can try DOItFast4U and DoCCE4U but I suggest waiting a few more weeks. You will need scenarist though. Soon it should be relatively simple with ReAuthorist.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=52018

Here's the thing though we need to try to author same NSTC disc with Scenarist and see if the NTSC movie looks fine or not rather than IFOEDIT.

Also for main movie only DVD2SVCD can do it but the chapters are for DVDMaestro. Not sure about subs. I think I'll ask dvd2svcd to see if he can't possibly add the ifoedit muxing to dvd2svcd build.

Out of those three the only one that is a one-click solution is dvdtoolbox but who wants to split the movie into two dvds? I don't.

[RB]

Originally posted by mrbass
[Subtitles]
Check Rip Subtitles
CVD Subtitles
do I even need to do this?

DVD2SVCD won't rip subtitles in a Maestro/Scenarist compatible format so if at all, you should use permanent subtitles (for "alien subs" for instance).

[Frameserver]
Resize to DVD (720x480/576)
BicubicResize
I edited .avs and took out Bicubic cuz I thot
it's only when you resize it to something other than
the source. Should I have left it in?
Also I had to add Audio()
at the end to prevent CCE from crashing.

It's OK to take out the resizing, though I recommend my AutoFitCD plugin even for DVD conversions :), simply ensures you get the most out of you DVD-R.

[Bitrate]
I put all Between 0 and 999mins and all Use 1 CD size 4480

My Max. 6500 Min. 300 unchecked Min. avg Max. avg 2230

You need to raise max. Avg to something like 8500. This is the reason for the undersizing you are seeing. This setting tells DVD2SVCD which average bitrate never to exceed.

Only difference was in BBMPEG in advanced I didn't double-click DVD...instead I clicked MPEG2....ok that's probably were I screwed up.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations.

[MedicineMan]

Hello.

I know that this reply may be a bit of out of time (it should be made a few days ago), because from the thread i followed some of the questions i ask are already answered. But please excuse me for questioning that again.

I've been doing backups of my movies since the days of DVD2SVCD. And loved that program. The main problem being the SVCD format that, although great, wasn't 100% compatible with my players. So, when i got a DVD burner, i searched the web for a program that allowed me to do what i did with DVD2SVCD. Easy to use (i'm not a video expert, and get lost with some of the terms and implications of them), and that worked. I've followed the work of DVD2SVCD, and expected him to have a program capable of doing DVDs now (yes, i know it can do them, but not the way i need them; with at least 2 sound tracks, all the subtitles i want, and that does all the authoring part of it). So i turned to DVD2DVD-R, and after overcoming the fact that his website is in german (afterall the program is in English), I've sucessufuly backed-up over 50 DVD movies.

Ok, i'm lucky. I live in Europe, and only backup PAL movies. We all know that NTSC movies are different, and have different problems. But what worries me is the fact that i'm not sure anymore how should i "configure" the DVD2DVD-R program, mainly the CCE part of it.

You know, i've been using DVD2DVD-R exclusively. Yes, even on movies that are only about 4,5Gb before encoding. And had only 2 problems until now (one i now know that was probably caused by "combing", and another where the file calculation failed, and the size of the VOBs was larger than the size of the DVDr disk). And after reading the Doom9 forums, i always do what the DVD2DVD-R program tells me to do about it's settings. But planning to get a new TV set (100" projection screens?; i didn't even know they made them that big; i can't afford that size in Europe), i'm worried that my backups aren't that perfect. So my main question is:

Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it? Do i really need to use a program like bitrate viewer? If so, what settings should i use? If i need to use it, then it isn't a "one-click solution" afterall.



Sincerely


MedicineMan

[windtrader]

My only real choice was to make a 1:1 copy and split it across 2 discs. Now I have DVD2DVD-R. These same movies look good on my ~114" movie screen. When watching at normal speed and distances (~10ft) I cannot tell the difference between the original and the copy.

Monomer, Did you mean that the original and 1-1 copy look the same? Or did you mean that the DVD2DVDR copy and the orginal looked the same?

[mrbass]

I was just doing what dvd2svcd said here (2nd post)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=28017

"3. In the bbMPEG tab under Advanced Settings DoubleClick on MPEG2 (not dvd, as bbmpeg wont create dvd compliant streams)"

Anyway I'll raise my max avg...crap like that happens when you do stuff at 3am...hehe
Thanks for the advice RB.


Only difference was in BBMPEG in advanced I didn't double-click DVD...instead I clicked MPEG2....ok that's probably were I screwed up.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations.

No, that will affect bitrate calculation only a little. I did quite some experiments with the bbMPEG settings and finally found the settings I described to result in the most accurate bitrate calculation for DVD-R conversions. Remember bbMPEG is not even run, it's just that the bbMPEG settings affect DVD2SVCD's internal bitrate calculations. [/B]

[RB]

Originally posted by MedicineMan
Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it?
One complaint about DVD2DVD-R I've always had is that it calculates a min. and max. bitrate that "depends" on the average bitrate and doesn't let you use a max. bitrate above 7552 kbits/sec. no matter what.

For instance, for a 90 minute movie, it defaults to 4136/6205/7552 (min./avg./max.). However, for 135 minutes it calculates 2688/4033/6049 (only one 448 kbps AC3 track and no subtitles selected in both cases).

In the first case, the min. bitrate is unnecessarily high, forcing CCE to allocate many bits for easy parts of the video although it may not be necessary, leaving less bitrate for really difficult parts. In the second case, it calculates a relatively low max. bitrate, apparently simply because the average bitrate is also low. This does not make any sense and in this particular case actually cuts the peak bitrate CCE could use for complex scenes by more than 3000 kbits.

For only one AC3 track of 448 kbps, one can easily use a max. video bitrate of 9200 kbps, but DVD2DVD-R won't let you, 7552 is the max you can set manually. Chatwalker says that's because this is the standard of a multi angle DVD and Scenarist sometimes breaks if the max. bitrate is higher, but DVD2DVD-R does not create a DVD with multiple angles in the first place and I never had problems importing a 9200 kbps max. bitrate MPV into Scenarist.

Another setting that is sometimes described incorrectly in the DVD2DVD-R forums and guides is the "Upper field first" checkbox. Rule of thumb: uncheck it unless your source is interlaced and bottom field first (very rare on DVDs).

To sum it up, I would always set min. bitrate to 1000 and max. bitrate to 7552 in DVD2DVD-R and hope that at some point Chatwalker thinks about this again and stops calculating min. and max. bitrate depending on the movie length. And hopefully at some point allows you to set a max. video bitrate that is really (9800 - AC3 bitrate - subs bitrate).

[monomer]

I'll make this brief since I'm in the middle of giving exams and should be 'working'. (Having computers with high-speed access at each lecture station is great.)

MedicineMan... I am using an LCD projector (fed by a computer) to project onto a ~114" wide movie screen I've mounted in a black velvet-covered frame. Decent LCD projectors can now be purchased for under $1400 directly from Japan. Of course you can also get as expensive as you want... check it all out at www.avsforum.com Go to the projector forums... there are several of them. (First select the link to "All Forums")

Windtrader... The 1:1 is essentially the original and so will definitely look the same, even under 'frame advance' scrutiny. What I meant was the DVD2DVD-R copy looked as good as the original, with me going back and forth comparing with the original in the same scenes. I only became aware of any differences by using 'frame advance' to view each frame one at a time.

Mrbass... DVDToolBox is a wonderful program. It's the one I now pick for movie splitting and I also use it to quickly gauge stripped movie and soundtrack file sizes... this advises me on how to 'deal' with a movie.

[Drylook]

Hello guys.
Interesting thread...

I've got a problem with a live show DVD (Party at the Palace).
It's a big one and for those I always used DVD2DVD-R (1.4.8 now) and CCE SP 2.66.

The thing is that my copies look "shuttering" on fast dancing girls. Looks like a special effect but it's not (confirmed by the original).
I don't know if the problem is the so called combing...

First try was with Progressive checked (as advised by DVD2DVD-R).
Second try was with Progressive unchecked (like BV told me to).

On both of them --- same problem!

Now what???
It's a PAL DVD.

[thop]

I tried DVD2DVD-R today. Actually it encoded the main movie of Bad Company pretty fast (~55 minutes for CCE, plus ~30 minutes for the preperation) on my 2800+, however i doesn't really make sense to use DVD2DVD-R if you want to do main movie only because you can usually transcode the main movie with level 1,2 or 3 (if you strip unnecessary audio) in dvd shrink which als gives excellent results in less than 15 minutes. less of a hassle too :)

i'd probably reconsider DVD2DVD-R ifit could encode the whole DVD with CCE, in one step.

edit: actually i just tried dvdshrink and it fits the main movie with level 1 and one audio stream, or level 2 and 2 audio streams.

[jzaman]

Originally posted by monomer

jzaman... I've tried every combination of 'flags' and all I ever got was 'big time' stuttering in Zoomplayer but I never tried any of those 'experimental' movies in my other players... why not give it a try and let us know what happens.

monomer:
In my search for the Holy Grail of large movie only copies I am offering for sacrifice one more burn of Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones with set 'drop frame' flag selected. Should be cooked and ready in a few hours. Does your time duration problem also include number jerkiness in the display?

[mrbass]

Originally posted by thop
however i doesn't really make sense to use DVD2DVD-R if you want to do main movie only because you can usually transcode the main movie with level 1,2 or 3 (if you strip unnecessary audio) in dvd shrink which als gives excellent results in less than 15 minutes. less of a hassle too :)


It makes total sense to use CCE for movies like Gladiator, Patriot, ShawShawnk Redemption. I will only do dvdshrink to level 1 or 2. Sometimes not even 2 depending on if it's too much compression or not. Anything that requires a level 3 (after audio is stripped and all extras) then IC or CCE. I did C.S.I. season 1 disc 1 last night with IC7 and it's definitely watchable but I can tell it suffers a bit with 4 episodes per DVD. Obviously the best way would be using DoItFast4U and DoCCE4U if I knew how. So I guess it's best I start learning the tricks of the trade.

[monomer]

Originally posted by jzaman
monomer: Does your time duration problem also include number jerkiness in the display?

Don't know, never really stared at it for a long time. Off-hand, I never noticed anything jerky... I'll check again and let you know.

UPDATE: My "Last of the Mohicans" came out just like "Collateral Damage": stutters in Zoomplayer but plays perfect in PowerDVD and in my Sony standalone except the time duration is off by 42 minutes. No audio sync issues... all sound is perfectly in sync throughout this 2 hour and 15 minute movie. (It was made using the pulldownmod.exe)

BTW, I thought I read somewhere that these audio sync issues are cause by the 'clock' in the soundcard not having enough precision. I'll have to do a search of the archives on the AVSforums to find that thread again. So far I've not had any problems with audio sync (knock on wood)... for what its worth, I am using an Audigy soundcard.

[monomer]

Originally posted by MedicineMan
So my main question is:
Should i trust the default settings of that program. How can i fine tune the CCE encoding part of it? Do i really need to use a program like bitrate viewer? If so, what settings should i use? If i need to use it, then it isn't a "one-click solution" afterall.

For the most part bitrate viewer seems to confirm the defaults selected by DVD2DVD-R... you just double-click the icon and 'point' it to one of the vobs and click OK. That's all there is to it... its a simple thing to compare bitrate viewer's output to DVD2DVD-R's default settings. I've never yet had to change DVD2DVD-R's default settings because of anything bitrate veiwer 'told' me. Yes, I believe it is still a 'one click' solution.

[mpucoder]

Originally posted by monomer
BTW, I thought I read somewhere that these audio sync issues are cause by the 'clock' in the soundcard not having enough precision.

Virtually all software players no longer have a problem with that. It took awhile for some to figure out that in a PC you cannot slave the audio clock to the DVD clock, so, instead, you sync everything else to the soundcard.
It's not that way in a standalone, the audio clock and video clock are locked together.

[jzaman]

monomer:
I just finished doing Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones over again with the 2:3 pulldown/Force Film selections and the set "drop frame' flag. Same problem with time and compatibility and no discernable improvement in movie quality. The only software player I use is WinDVD 4.0 and it is the only one I like. It plays all my copies made with DVD2DVD-R default settings confirmed by Bitrate Viewer so I have not been able to confirm the frame problem without 2:3 pulldown and Force Film selected. Is ignorance bliss? I take out the copy I made last week with my usual method of going with the defaults (after confirming ahead of time with Bitrate Viewer) and play it again. Even if I compare it to the pulldown/force film versions (apart from their problems) I see no difference. (I have four versions burned - confirmed defaults with no pulldown/force film, confirmed defaults with pulldown/force film, confirmed defaults with pulldownmod/force film, and confirmed defaults with pulldownmod/force film/set 'drop frame' flag.) It looks comparable to the original and it plays for 2:22:20 with no time problem or standalone navigation\compatibility problem. I know this doesn't make sense but this is what I see. I don't care how it looks on my PC. I only care how it looks on my players. On all the burned NTSC copies without Force Film/2:3 pulldown the copies are pretty good in my players. I'm going full circle. Does the standalone circuitry compensate for mild artifacting?

[mrbass]

ok did gladiator VBR 3 pass and this is what info.txt says

[VIDEO]
Frames=222930
Horizontal Size=720
Vertical Size=480
AspectRatio=16 : 9
Framerate=23.976 fps
VBVBuffer=112
Bitrate=9801600 bit/s
VideoFormat=NTSC
ChromaFormat=4:2:0
Progressive=False
UpperField=True
ZigZagScanningOrder=False
LinearQuantizerScale=False
IntraDCPrecision=10
PTS=25257
Duration=02:34:48:18


Bitrate viewer says of the original movie
Notice is opposite of what I specified..see below

Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9801600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

I checked/unchecked like so the following in DVD2DVD-R 1.4.8 CCE 2.50

[X]Progressive Frames
[ ]Linear Quantizer
[X]ZigZag
[ ]Upper Field First (why does final output say UpperField=True?)
[X]Force Film
[X]2:3 Pulldown (did with pulldownmod.exe)
[X]Set Drop Frame Flag
[ ]Set Progressive Flag


I don't understand this Upper field first if I had it unchecked then how did it end up with upper field first...good moses.
Zigzag I had checked just like original but the result ending up being the opposite.
How in the world did it end up not being progressive? That's the bigone. I don't think any of these parameters are actually being set and there isn't enough of a detailed log in DVD2DVD-R. Based on this I guess I'm just gonna try what @jzaman and do the opposite of what were are supposed to do and see if it doesn't render decent results.

edit: once again...don't believe anything I say..ok now here's my a small portion of my gladiator.ecl file (Encoder Control List)

drop_frame=1
progressive=1
alternate_scan=0
non_linear=1
top_first=0

So it was written correctly according to the options that I had set..so the question remains. How did CCE end up screwing up the end result...hmmmm.

[monomer]

Mrbass... I know nothing about the 'inner workings' of DVD2DVD-R other than what I see in the Log... that's why I've been using 'trial and error' as my method of learning. But I've also been doing quite a bit of reading about film and video and DVDs and such. (Please keep in mind, my real work has nothing to do with computers much less video... that should explain why my vocabulary is so limited in this area of discussion.)

It appears to me that the number of frames on a DVD and the information contained in them doesn't really change when it goes from progressive to interlaced or is telecine or inversed telecine... but rather its the 'flags' that change. And its the software in the players that 'read' the flags and convert the frames 'on-the-fly' to whatever your display device handles. If this is so, then all CCE needs to know is how the frames are assembled so it will know how to interpret the frames. (I think that's why you have to 'tell' it when top field is first, etc.) Then it actually compresses and re-encodes the movie frames but now it has insert back the appropriate 'flags'. How does CCE know which way to assemble the 'flags'? Does it always do it the same? Have I gone off the deep end? Is this even the way its really done?

jzaman said: "Does the standalone circuitry compensate for mild artifacting?"
If my guess as to how this all works (see above) is correct, then this, I think, would be a real possibility. BTW, don't you have a 'frame advance' feature on your player? Try advancing it 'frame-by-frame' and see what each frame looks like... Then put in the original DVD and go to the same scene. Now 'frame advance' through it and compare. And tell us what you see... anything?

UPDATE: Just finished "Little Big Man"... its 7.3Gb stripped! After DVD2DVD-R, it looks real good. ForceFilm, 2:3 checked. No audio sync problems. Again, won't play in Zoomplayer but does play in everything else... displayed time duration is short by 28 minutes. I am now doing "Dances With Wolves". This one's a little over 7Gb.

[RB]

Originally posted by mrbass

I don't understand this Upper field first if I had it unchecked then how did it end up with upper field first...good moses.
Zigzag I had checked just like original but the result ending up being the opposite.
How in the world did it end up not being progressive? That's the bigone.
mrbass, I'm sure that the Info.txt generated by DVD2DVD-R again refers to the original stream. Obviously it gets some information incorrect but that does not matter as long as you set up CCE correctly (as you did). You need to check the final M2V generated from CCE/DVD2DVD-R with BitRate Viewer instead.

As for "Upper Field First" in CCE: this has been discussed in the CCE forum several times. It is a little confusing because CCE always sets the "Top Field First" flag in the output stream, no matter how you set the Upper Field First checkbox. What it does however when you check it is shifting the whole frame one line up so that bff interlaced video is encoded correctly. So again, the rule of thumb is to never check this option unless input video is interlaced and bottom field first.

[monomer]

MedicineMan... If the AVSForums seems a bit too chaotic, you should go here first: http://www.projectorcentral.com they have excellent guides to introduce and explain the world of projectors. I highly recommend front screen projectors for a home movie theater... I think its the biggest "bang for your buck" (or whatever monetary denomination you're using).

[mrbass]

ok did 4 pass vbr and kept first four options checked...It looks great...so basically here's my guide:
start dvd2dvdr, use default options and click go....lol. Seriously as long as it plays I guess. I flipped through each frame and it DID NOT exhibit bad frames like when doing force film, 2:3 pulldown, and drop frame.

edit: Oops it was way outta synch with subtitles though so it's a no go. I'll keep trying this or that.

RB I'll always unchecked Upper Field First from now on unless like you say it's interlaced material which most NSTC movies are not except for like concernt, music, documentary DVDs.

[monomer]

Mrbass...
...so let me see if I've got this right... No need to check 'Top Field First' (except when the original source material was recorded in video). And if I uncheck this option, I no longer need to check 'ForceFilm' or '2:3' pulldown... and I'll not have any 3rd and 4th frame interlacing artifacts in the final processed movie...? Great! can't wait to get home tonight and try this out.

Edit after reading mrbass' Edit: I don't use subtitles anyway... so I assume that should not be a problem for me... right?

[mrbass]

honestly monomer I don't know what to tell you. I plan on keep experimenting for as long as it takes.

DVD2DVD-R 1.4.9 is out but I don't think it corrects anything except maybe that scenarist subtitle bug (I hope).

[RB]

Originally posted by mrbass
start dvd2dvdr, use default options and click go....lol.
I'd still suggest you modify the min. and max. bitrate as I described earlier in this thread because the values DVD2DVD-R calculates are nonsense most of the time.

RB I'll always unchecked Upper Field First from now on unless like you say it's interlaced material which most NSTC movies are not except for like concernt, music, documentary DVDs.
Again, only if it's truly interlaced (check with DVD2AVI preview) AND it is bottom field first (check with BitrateViewer, Top Field First = No means it's bottom field first).

[mrbass]

Originally posted by RB

To sum it up, I would always set min. bitrate to 1000 and max. bitrate to 7552 in DVD2DVD-R

I will do what you say (I've done it past two encodes btw) is set min to 1000 and max to 7500 (easy to remember).

[jzaman]

monomer:

Have you noticed any movie quality improvements with Force Film/2:3 Pulldown selected? Are you still going the Force Film/2:3 Pulldown selected route? Have you made burned comparisons or only software player comparisons?

I know that you and I are trying all the permutations like drunken alchemists but I think we are getting closer to the formula. The 1000 min/7500 max bitrate concept and the Bottom field First rule are also worth testing. I still don't understand why the original NTSC vob can have upper field first selected but it is recommended to deselect it in DVD2DVD-R. Is it possible that the "whacked" frame thing is related to CCE's problem with Bottom Field First? Maybe we just go with the NTSC defaults as verified by Bitrate Viewer(without pulldown/force film) and simply unclick upper field first. This would confirm what I am seeing and also eliminate/minimize the frame to frame problem.
............sounds too easy to be true!

P.S. Redoing Star Wars II: with defaults except for Bottom Field first manually unselected (force film/pulldown unselected). Will compare the final burn with the others.

[monomer]

Originally posted by jzaman
...Is it possible that the "whacked" frame thing is related to CCE's problem with Bottom Field First? Maybe we just go with the NTSC defaults as verified by Bitrate Viewer(without pulldown/force film) and simply unclick upper field first. This would confirm what I am seeing and also eliminate/minimize the frame to frame problem.
............sounds too easy to be true!

I'm trying it right now as I write this. I don't want to speak too soon but it could explain a number of things if this works. As far as the subtitles being out of sync... really won't affect my copies (since I don't keep them). I figure I got about 3 hours more to go before I'll know anything... I'm feeling real positive about this.

BTW, I've done the last 4 movies with ForceFilm and 2:3 checked and I had to burned them to check 'em on my Sony. But I also made 'Split Disc' copies of them as well (just to cover all my bases). I hope you're also giving this a try so we can compare notes later.

[jzaman]

(deleted)

[monomer]

Great! can't wait until "Dances With Wolves" is finished...

jzaman... How long did it take to do? I ask that because it looks like this one is going to take about 4.5+ hours. That's the longest any movie has ever taken by far! Its a big movie to be sure (at 7+Gb stripped) but over an hour longer than any of my other movies? I wonder if changing my maximum bit rate to 7552 could have anything to do with it?

I'll post my results when I can...

[jzaman]

monomer:

Sorry I had to take back what I said and delete my previous (premature) post but I can't endorse DVD2DVD-R's handling of the Upper Field first setting. The Field Top First: Yes is seen in the vob's with Bitrate Viewer after the re-encoding even though I deselected it in DVD2DVD-R. I know that Force Film and pulldown\pulldownmod somehow correctly deselects the Upper Field First setting. (Even when I select it in DVD2DVD-R, force film/pulldown overides it and I can confirm that with Bitrate Viewer after the re-encoding). I also know that force film/pulldown or pulldownmod has problems that overshadow the cure.

Originally it was looking great (on PowerDVD) until I played it on my standalone players and also played it longer. When I played it further into the movie it was significantly shaky and jerky on my DVD players. I did another burn to rule out a bad burn but it's still the same. So far (at least with this movie) the use of confirmed default settings without Force Film/pulldown has given me my best quality copy. I wish it all fell neatly into place.

[MackemX]

nice to see you guys going thru the learning curve with DVD2DVDR

it's simple once you know how ain't it :)

It looked like Quantum Physics when I first started using CCE and also DVD2DVDR and especially when I read the CCE Advanced Guide on this site :eek:

but now it's as easy as 1,2,3, err 5 :D, it's like riding a bike, looks tricky at first but once you learn you'll never forget

I just wish someone would actually bring out a tool that used a CCE like encoder but had similar features to IC but it actually worked reliably and did more than one pass

surely somebody's gotta be working on such a tool cos there is a massive market out there waiting for one such tool

I thought XPRESS Platinum was gonna be that tool, but judging by it's movie only version and the speed of processing, I very much doubt it :(

if it's an encoder, it's too darn fast for my liking and I reckon it's just a trancoder and they are talking BS just like the most of the description

CLONEDVD is one of the next to come out but that's a transcoder, so who's giving all the developers ideas that processing speed is the main issue and developing all these transcoders?????

people don't have to sit and babysit the progress bar do they!

one day maybe, one day!, and hopefully sometime before Blue Laser is mainstream that tool will arrive :D

[mrbass]

Originally posted by MackemX
nice to see you guys going thru the learning curve with DVD2DVDR

one day maybe, one day!, and hopefully sometime before Blue Laser is mainstream that tool will arrive :D

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=52018

it's coming...kinda ..read 2nd post.

[MackemX]

I knew about Re-Authorist but that's not exactly a legal option for the masses is it :D. That's for more advanced web users if you know what I mean ;)

though some of us ain't on 100K salaries and if you could afford to buy all the software legally why on earth would you back them up?, would it not be cheaper to just buy two copies or in fact purchase the rights to the movie? :p

If Pinnacle implemented a opitonal multiple pass that resulted in better quality and sizes of 4.37Gb, and sorted one or two daft bugs, can you imagine the rush to download the update or buy it :D

I'll stop now cos this I going away from the subject of DVD2DVR anyway

but thanks for the pointer mrbass :)

p.s. fingers crossed :rolleyes:

[jzaman]

Originally posted by MackemX
I just wish someone would actually bring out a tool that used a CCE like encoder but had similar features to IC but it actually worked reliably and did more than one pass


This is exactly why I've been spending extra time with DVD2DVD-R. I know that the CCE Basic encoding engine is superior to a transcoder engine or a one pass semi-encoder like IC. Unfortunately there are numerous roadblocks with NTSC DVD's with DVD2DVD-R and CCE.

[jzaman]

monomer:

Tools: DVD Decrypter 3.1.6.0, DVD2DVD-R 1.49,CCE Basic 2.67.01.11, Bitrate Viewer 1.5.054, ImgTools 1.0.0.4 with Nero 5.5.10.20 API and PowerDVD XP 4.0
Movie: NTSC Burner: Pioneer 105 Media: Ritek 4x

This method is based on the specific tools above and the creation of a NTSC main movie only copy (without subtitles, menus,extras).

STEPS:
(1) Rip the full movie with DVD Decrypter in file mode.
(2) Analyze the 2nd vob and 4th vob with Bitrate Viewer and write down the settings.
(3) Use only the settings you wrote down and change the DVD2DVD-R MPEG Encoder options(even if it differs from the DVD2DVD-R prediction)
(4) Click Go.
(5) Burn.
(6) Play in PowerDVD (Step Forward T) in frame by frame and compare to original.
(7) Play in multiple standalone DVD players to evaluate.
(8) Find an audience to watch it.

I am waiting on Red Dragon to finish (a few hours to go). Under DVD2DVD-R only the Upper Field First was automatically selected. However, the Bitrate Viewer Analysis of the original vobs revealed Upper Field first unselected, Zigzag selected and progressive selected. (Also Pulldown/Force Film is not selected.)I changed the settings accordingly as per step 3.

When it's done I'll go through steps 5 through 8 and let you know how it goes.

[jzaman]

Just finished Red Dragon: It is screwed up (shaky, unstable) and the upper field first is selected when I analyze the vobs after the re-encode even though upper field first was unselected in DVD2DVD-R Encoding options. A pattern is now emerging.

As I previously stated:
(2) Analyze the 2nd vob and 4th vob with Bitrate Viewer and write down the settings.
(3) Use only the settings you wrote down and change the DVD2DVD-R MPEG Encoder options(even if it differs from the DVD2DVD-R prediction)

Apparently in the case of DVD2DVD-R and NTSC DVD copies it was a lucky streak that gave me my original success. The problem is that the encoder options selected in DVD2DVD-R can not be counted on. The flags don't fly right!

Let me explain:
I based my steps on normal events. For example, if I transcode Red Dragon through DVD2One the analysis (step 2) before transcoding matches the settings after transcoding. When I get that matchup with DVD2DVD-R Encoding Options and the original Bitrate analysis then the movie rendered is very good.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS: DVD2DVD-R/CCE/DVD2AVI COMBO DOESN'T DO THE ENCODING OPTIONS CORRECTLY WITH NTSC DVD BACKUPS. (I do not know which component of this combo inverts or subverts the selections.)

When it does get it right then I get a good backup. That explains my previous luck. One workaround is to analyze the vobs before and after and if the settings match then you can do a frame by frame comparison before you do a burn. This would not be a "one click" solution but if you get a winning backup it may be worth it.

I begin to appreciate more the predictability of DVD2one after working with these CCE tools.

[mpucoder]

This is why internally transcoding is almost a must for NTSC. The flags you are talking about interact, and must be replicated exactly. Actually, they are the same flags, TFF (Top Field First) and RFF (Repeat First Field) are used for pulldown. Provided your material is 100% FILM CCE should work, slightly lower percentage can use force film. But lower than that, as in ST-TNG hybrids, and you cannot do this with an external encoder (not without much more work to convert video to film, film to video, or process the film and video elements seperately). One solution would be for someone to write a program to replicate the RFF and TFF flags of the original into the re-encoded video (pulldown blindly establishes a sequence, and can only succeed with 100% FILM)

[mrbass]

Originally posted by mpucoder
One solution would be for someone to write a program to replicate the RFF and TFF flags of the original into the re-encoded video (pulldown blindly establishes a sequence, and can only succeed with 100% FILM)

Can't we just crop, errrrrrr..hmm trim off those intro sections that are interlaced and any remaining parts after credits that are interlaced too. I can't believe outta all those SVCDs I did with DVD2SVCD I only once in awhile ran in an issue and all of them were with NTSC DVDs.

[monomer]

Okay, now I can post my results of 'unchecking Top Field First' and changing the min/max bitrates to 1000/7552... in a nutshell, doesn't work for me!

When I unchecked the 'Top Field First' option I got horrible results. There are 'new' artifacts I've never seen before, ever... lettering bounces up and down and certain patterns in the background (like the bark on a tree in the background or sand etc.) will move or creep around (this might not be quite as noticeable on a TV screen). And fast motion is not always very smooth. So basically, it looks like 'ka ka'! I would say, definitely do leave 'Top Field First' checked. Also for the first time ever, my final file size came out too big (4.39Gb) so I'm not going to mess with min/max bitrates anymore either. BTW, I tried this twice, both movies ended up looking like 'hell' and were over-sized to boot.

I think the best choices for now are to uncheck ForceFilm and 2:3 if you want the best player compatibility because I don't think anyone can possibly see those slight artifacts in frames 3 and 4 at normal viewing speed. Otherwise do check ForceFilm and 2:3 and have no artifacts but screwed up time duration displays... its just a matter of personal preference, I guess. Oh and so far I've not yet experienced any audio sync problems... nada!

SOME OPTIONAL READING:
What I just learned last night...
Last night, I did some more reading (in the 'CCE Basic' manual to be precise) and I think I know why unchecking ForceFilm and 2:3 seem to create those artifacts only in frames 3 and 4 (out of 5) and why the time display is screwy if you do check those options...
Film is 24fps and NTSC is (lets just 'round it' for now) 30fps. That means fields from 4 frames (of film) must be arranged to come up with 5 frames (for NTSC). And so two of the five frames end up being combined fields from two different moments (frames) in time. These are frames 3 and 4. If you do not check ForceFilm and its inverse (which is 2:3 pulldown) CCE will assemble the 5 frames first and then compress/re-encode each of the 5 frames... so frames 3 and 4 go though this process and come out, as mrbass put it, "whacked". However if you check ForceFilm and 2:3, CCE just uses the original 4 frames of the film to compress/re-encode and it comes out clean... so now the '2:3 pulldown' puts the 'flags' back in so your DVDplayer will build the 5 frames needed for video (out of the 4 clean re-encoded frames). The CCE manual says this is more efficient since you are compressing/re-encoding 4 frames instead of 5frames... a savings of 25% (though it would seem like 20% from my calcuations) or a 25% increase in quality since there are 25% less frames to compress. I also found out that AVI files do not have a timecode... evidently the original timecodes are removed in the DVD2AVI process. And AVI files is what CCE is using... so when its re-encoding 4frames (instead of the 5frames the original timecode was based on) CCE "generates a timecode and embeds it into the MPEG stream" (quotes the CCE manual). I'm sure this 'timecode' is what the DVDplayer uses to display time and why the time duration is always short by about 20-25%. Of course if we instead leave ForceFilm and 2:3 unchecked then CCE would be compressing all 5frames and so its generated timecode would be correct for ~30fps and it is.

If you've gotten this far, tell me what you think.

[mrbass]

very well put monomer. I understood a little..hehe.

ok I've done 2 or 3 tests with all 8 options checked except Upper Field first wasn't checked. My next test will be all 8 options checked and see how it goes. I need those subs in synch.

[monomer]

mrbass... just out of curiosity, what are you using for your display? and what kind of a DVDplayer are you using? software and/or standalone? Heck, I'm even interested in why you must have subtitles?

[monomer]

Just did a calculation on 2 movies and checking both ForceFilm and 2:3 Pulldown shortens the duration time by EXACTLY 20%. My theory has been confirmed... jzaman could you verify. Turn the times into all minutes and the calculation is simple... Thanks

Now that I know what's going on with DVD2DVD-R, I'm going choose ForceFilm and 2:3 and just live with the 'bogus' times... unfortunately I am now relegated to using PowerDVD. If only Zoomplayer could handle the timecode mis-match... oh well.

[thop]

I've been wondering does all the crazy stuff you guys are talking about in the last 20 posts only apply to NTSC? I'd really like to encode some movies with DVD2DVD-R but all those flags and options scare me off pretty good :)

I wonder if it's possible to make a tool that can CCE with the simplicity of DVD Shrink.

[Mako]

yea with PAL your on easy street!
mmmmmm pal.;)

[jzaman]

monomer:
"Just did a calculation on 2 movies and checking both ForceFilm and 2:3 Pulldown shortens the duration time by EXACTLY 20%. My theory has been confirmed... jzaman could you verify. Turn the times into all minutes and the calculation is simple... Thanks"

If I go with Forcefilm/2:3 pulldown I have one of my DVD players choking on scene to scene navigation. I can live with the time problem but the navigation compatibility problem is hard to swallow. Generally in the past when one of my players choke it was because it balked at imperfections in the DVD structure or I had a bad burn. I have been burning DVD's for the last three months that play on all of the players I throw them on with my burning method and all of the "one click" solutions highlighted in this forum. I hate to backtrack even if I like the encoding prowess of CCE Basic more than the other approaches. I guess I can discount the results on my Sony DAv c700 but it has been played everything else that I loaded on it without flaw. It is not a problem or DVD-R sensitive player. I have used it to evaluate DVD2one, DVDxcopy, DDV95copy, and IC copies. I can confirm the 20% time reduction but why does the navigation get screwed up for me? If you get a chance to do Star Wars: Attack of the Clones then tell me your exact settings and I'll repeat it. If a technique works then it should be repeatable.

[mrbass]

are you doing it with pulldown 0.99d or pulldownmod 0.0.1 by Bach?

[jzaman]

mrbass:
I downloaded the Bach pulldownmod.exe from your mirror site and I still had navigation problems. I renamed it to pulldown.exe and ran DVD2DVD-R as usual. It would freeze as I navigated from scene to scene with a remote control. This occured with Grey Zone, Star Wars II and Red Dragon so I cut my losses. If the Sony DAV c-700 was a problem DVD player then I would ignore it. It does play fine in my Sony 715 that resides in my living room. I would relax my standards if the Sony DAV was an anomaly but it has been a consistent predictor of semi-compatible DVD backups in the past.

[monomer]

jzaman...
Your Sony DAV is probably 'choking' on the same thing Zoomplayer is. Though I don't know for sure what that is, my best guess is that its the 'bogus' "timecode being embedded in the MPEG stream" by CCE during the re-encoding. Zoomplayer has a number of capabilities that rely on timing which PowerDVD and my Sony DVP does not. I think that the software decoder in both your DAV and in Zoomplayer rely on that timecode to skip chapters or even just to play properly. I really would rather use Zoomplayer because of its ultra configure-ability as far as aspect ratios are concerned. For instance, I can shift a 2.35 movie to the top of my 16:9 screen so the only black bar is a thick one at the bottom of the screen. This allows me to easily 'skirt' this one bar with a black-velvet curtain and thus increase the contrast of my LCD projector greatly by having the whole 2.35 picture surrounded by black-velvet (the black-velvet acts as a 'black hole' as far as reflected light is concerned... any light 'spillage' is in effect 'sucked in' by this material and not allow to reflect back into the room.) I'm still torn between the 2 choices we seem to be stuck with... neither is perfect.

[jzaman]

thop:

You ask the most important question: "I wonder if it's possible to make a tool that can CCE with the simplicity of DVD Shrink"

That is what I thought I had with DVD2DVD-R until I ran into some NTSC walls. If it made the correct selections and then actually created the correct flags then this application would qualifya at least in the Movie Only category.

[jzaman]

monomer:

This magic formula is exactly what I wanted to avoid but I can't overlook what I like about this process:

1. All 6 gb+ movies end up between 4.34-4.36 gb without all the incessant calculations of IC.

2. Movies that come out correct are not rivaled by any other approaches.

3. You can watch a whole movie in another computer or room while it is encoding. (I'm turning a negative into a positive)

The trouble is that it is a hard beast to tame.

[Artur]

@thop,
with the PAL sistem, ther´s not half the problems that with the NTSC sistem.
Seeya!

[thop]

I got PAL :) The problem is my Yamaha DVD-Player can't read R1 so that i'll have to make the very few R1 i'll get/buy region free to be able to even watch them.
Also with PAL i am confused with the settings that DVD2DVD-R recommends and the settings that are recommended in various guides which should be enabled regardless what DVD2DVD-R says. And the interface could be bit slicker as well ;)

[Artur]

Well, the settings i use are in the Manual´s Section (http://usuarios.lycos.es/cstadius/phpBB2/index.php)
. But it´s in Portuguese. This settings were the one´s that gived me bether results in image quality. What are your settings thop?
Seeya.

[jzaman]

The unpredictable behaviour of DVD2DVD-R with NTSC DVD's makes it necessary for me to revise the steps I use:

Tools:
DVD Decrypter 3.1.6.0
DVD2DVD-R 1.49
pulldownmod.exe (renamed to pulldown.exe)
CCE Basic 2.67.01.11
Bitrate Viewer 1.5.054
ImgTools 1.0.0.4 with Nero 5.5.10.20 API
PowerDVD XP 4.0
Windows XP SP1 NTFS
DVR-105 Burner
Ritek 4X media



REVISED STEPS For NTSC Backups:

(1) Rip the full movie with DVD Decrypter in file mode.
(2) Analyze the 2nd vob and 4th vob with Bitrate Viewer and write down the settings.
(3) Use ONLY settings you wrote down and change the DVD2DVD-R MPEG Encoder options(even if it differs from the DVD2DVD-R prediction)
(4) Click Go.
(5) Play in PowerDVD (Step Forward T) in frame by frame and compare to original.
(6) Repeat steps 3 through 5 except also select Force Film and 2:3 pulldown.
(7) Decide which version to burn** (pulldowned version or non-pulldowned version). Burn both if you want to compare quality in step nine. However, You can always go back and burn the version you decided against.
(8) Burn.
(9) Play in multiple standalone DVD players to evaluate.
(10) Find an audience to watch it.

With this method, in my opinion, usually one of the two disks end up excellent with a folder size ranging from 4.34-4.36gb. I am only using this method on Movie Only backups with Movies 6.0+ gb. For movies under that size I have all the other "one click" programs to use.

** jzaman's law: If the original VOB's (MPEG Encoder settings) do not match the backup VOB's (MPEG Encoder Settings) then use a transcoder program to do the job. Cut your losses. Reduce your coasters.


Regards,
jzaman

[Grover]

I debated whether to post this question at the risk of looking like an idiot. Looked in mirror, too late, debate over. :)

What BITRATE settings should I use for CCE in DVD2DVD-R. ie - how do I determin what numbers to use. Is it different for each movie or is there a standard setting ?

I understand about using Bitrate Viewer, and checking a couple of .vob's and getting the info to make the other settings such as -

Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Interlaced

But I have read thread after thread and guide after guide (actually not many guides for DVD2DVD-R) searching for this BITRATE info.

Do I get the bitrate settings from what Bitrate Viewer tells me ?

(I am a PAL user)

Thanks for your help.

[Artur]

@Grover,
i normally use the settings that DVD2DVDR gives me.
Seeya.

[Grover]

Thanks Artur,

I also noticed that there is now a mrbass guide (http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/) for this program that is the starting point I was looking for as a beginner.

Cheers....