New Tool: DoCCE4U

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
BTW: BBWoof, were my project files of interlaced PAL material, that I sent you of any use somehow? :)

Greetz
69Mws

I appreciate you sending them, but using dvd2avi I really can't tell any difference between them. All the values are 2, which doesn't really tell me much.

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by Wardancer
Wouldn't it be possible to add a simple Checkbox for setting the CCE-Encoding to Progressive or not Progressive Frames (best option would be if CCE4U would discover it itself).. i think that would simplify things

Some people tell me that the tff checkbox has helped. There will be settings for both progressive/interlaced as well as zigzag order in the next release.

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
Little feature requests (hopefully little :) ):

- possibility to change the "Image Quality Priority"
- possibility to (de)activate ZigZag Scanning Order.


ZigZag will definitely be in the next release. IQP, I will try to get in. It's not that it's hard to implement, it's just that the interface is getting awfully crowded and in my opinion, the interface must look good also.

BBWoof

P.S. I will figure out how to get it in there somehow.

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
When the CCEData from DIF4U is opened and you want to use another template (switching from "RoBa" to "Mutlipass VBR" for example), the bitrate settings from the CCEData.txt will be overwritten by the default settings of the specific template.

Yep, that's sorta annoyed me at times also. I thought it would be nice to set the bitrates based on templates, which is what I did. But if you want to switch methods it becomes a pain.

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
Just an idea:

With ECLCCE it's possible to load ecl Files into other CCE Versions, like 2.66.01.07 for example.

With this tool it's also no problem opening ecl Files saved by CCE 2.50.

In order to enhance ecl Support, ECLCCE has to be started and that launches CCE 2.66.01.07 with full ecl-support. It works very nice for me.

My idea would be to implement a line in the DoCCE4U Settings to point out to the eclcce.exe (just like the line that points to cce250.exe) in order to pass the data to CCE 2.66.01.07 as an alternative.

Greetz
69Mws

I PM'd the author of eclcce this morning and got his permission to add support for his program to mine. They way I'll do it is the same path that's used for cce will be used for eclcce. This way it shouldn't matter which version you use, except that the ecls are different between 2.50 and 2.66.

My only real problem with this is from a programming point of view. I have attempted to stay away from things that I can't directly modify through code. So this using someone else's app is definitely new ground for me :)

[69Mws]

Well, thanks for all the responses, BBWoof :)

I sent a sample of a tff-interlaced PAL Clip to you and Eyes ´Only. Did you get that?

I also sent Eyes ´Only a bff-interlaced PAL Clip. Did he forward that to you? If not and you're interested, let me know and I would send it to you for "investigation".

Greetz
69Mws

[69Mws]

Originally posted by BBWoof
ZigZag will definitely be in the next release. IQP, I will try to get in. It's not that it's hard to implement, it's just that the interface is getting awfully crowded and in my opinion, the interface must look good also.

BBWoof

P.S. I will figure out how to get it in there somehow.

Yup, I totally agree. The handling of a GUI is very important and often underestimated! An overcrowded interface can be a PITA.

The only thing that would be nice for PAL Users is (de)activating ZigZag. Until then -=ViBeZ=- and me figured out a temp solution to implement PAL tff/bff support by adding two custoized templates based on your RoBa-Template.

He figured out how to edit the default-templates and I figured out how to add his customized templates instead of overwriting one of the existing templates.

The "history" can be watched here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51776 :)

Adjusting IQP is of everybody's interest, I think. It's also implemented in the ReAuthorist GUI, but this parameter is not passed through to DoCCE4U, only to the ecl-File, which ReAuhorist can create.

I'm sure you're gonna implement it well in a nice interface :)

Are you also planning to let users create own templates? This can be already done, but only by editing directly the registry. Ok, but I wouldn't see this as Prio 1 right now :)

Keep up the good work!

Greetz
69Mws

[RB]

Originally posted by BBWoof
My only real problem with this is from a programming point of view. I have attempted to stay away from things that I can't directly modify through code. So this using someone else's app is definitely new ground for me :)
Just wanted to let you know that I'm always glad to help in case you bump into problems. There is virtually no difference between running CCE 2.66/2.67 directly or through EclCCE, just ECL saving and loading works in addition.

[69Mws]

I have a problem with CCE on a specific DVD.

I tried DoCCE4U on a quite huge DVD (R2 PAL of "Blue Velvet"). There are quite a lot extras, the biggest Titleset with Extras has about 2 GB. The whole original size is about 7 or 8 GB.

I prepared everything with DIF4U and loaded the CCEData.txt into DoCCE4U. The encoding of the main movie is no problem, but when it comes to the first PGC of the second Titleset, CCE creates the vaf-File and then it freezes during the creation of the mpv.

I figured out, that it's not really a problem of DoCCE4U, because the error also occurs, when I don't use DoCCE4U and load this AVS manually into CCE (no matter which version).

I must admit that I set a very low avg bitrate on the extras...only 500 kbps...could this cause the freezing?

Normally I never have any freezing problems with CCE, so maybe it's originated in the very low bitrate....anyone like to share their experiences on this issue? :)

Greetz
69Mws

[kenma]

I've just installed DoCCE4U and there is a problem, it can't find CCE.
Went to settings and saw that DoCCE4U expected CCE in

c:\program files\custom technology\CCEblabla

but CCE was installed to

c:\programme\custom technology\CCEblabla

(cause of a german windows xp)

Clicked on BROWSE next to the path, but no requester opens up, so can't change the path, is this a bug in DoCCE4U or is there something wrong with my windows installation (1 week old, freshly installed) ?

I know, it would be easier to install CCE in "program files" but, why is that BROWSE-Button in DoCCE4U ?

Anyone could help please ?

[69Mws]

I have german Win2K and don't have any problems customizing the path to CCE :confused:

Try De- and Reinstalling DoCCE4U and be sure to have the latest Version (1.0.1.0).

Otherwise I think you can edit the path in the registry.

Look into HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\ and somwhere in this area you'll find the setting for the path.

Greetz
69Mws

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
Well, thanks for all the responses, BBWoof :)

I sent a sample of a tff-interlaced PAL Clip to you and Eyes ´Only. Did you get that?

I also sent Eyes ´Only a bff-interlaced PAL Clip. Did he forward that to you? If not and you're interested, let me know and I would send it to you for "investigation".

Greetz
69Mws

Sure, send it to me in #doom9 if you would and leave me a PM that you've done it.

BBWOof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
Are you also planning to let users create own templates? This can be already done, but only by editing directly the registry. Ok, but I wouldn't see this as Prio 1 right now :)
Greetz
69Mws

That's the plan at some point. That and a visual chapter editor. I think I can get around the CCE limitation of only 16 templates.

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by RB
Just wanted to let you know that I'm always glad to help in case you bump into problems. There is virtually no difference between running CCE 2.66/2.67 directly or through EclCCE, just ECL saving and loading works in addition.

Thanks RB, I'm sure I'll be asking :)

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
I have a problem with CCE on a specific DVD.

I prepared everything with DIF4U and loaded the CCEData.txt into DoCCE4U. The encoding of the main movie is no problem, but when it comes to the first PGC of the second Titleset, CCE creates the vaf-File and then it freezes during the creation of the mpv.

I must admit that I set a very low avg bitrate on the extras...only 500 kbps...could this cause the freezing?

Greetz
69Mws

The low bitrate might be a problem, I never set to below 1700 for extras. But in addition, you might look at the specific frame that it's crashing on. I've found that if there is a "glitch" in the video from the original dvd it will cause CCE to crash.

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by kenma
I've just installed DoCCE4U and there is a problem, it can't find CCE.
Went to settings and saw that DoCCE4U expected CCE in

c:\program files\custom technology\CCEblabla

but CCE was installed to

c:\programme\custom technology\CCEblabla

(cause of a german windows xp)

Clicked on BROWSE next to the path, but no requester opens up, so can't change the path, is this a bug in DoCCE4U or is there something wrong with my windows installation (1 week old, freshly installed) ?

I know, it would be easier to install CCE in "program files" but, why is that BROWSE-Button in DoCCE4U ?

Anyone could help please ?

The Browse button is there to browse for the cce executable. Haven't run into this problem for a very long time. Are you using 1.0.1.0?

BBWoof

[69Mws]

Originally posted by BBWoof
The low bitrate might be a problem, I never set to below 1700 for extras. But in addition, you might look at the specific frame that it's crashing on. I've found that if there is a "glitch" in the video from the original dvd it will cause CCE to crash.

I don't think, that it's a specific frame, because the freezing was not always at the same position.

And in CCE 2.66 for example it freezed already at the beginning of the vaf-creation.

I think there are two possibilities for this freezing:
- CCE has a common problem with very low bitrates or
- it's a problem when the gap between avg and max bitrate is very large (it was set to avg 500, max 9576...)

The problem is with this DVD that it has 8 Titlesets and one of the extras uses already 2 GB on the original DVD (kinda documentation over an hour).

The rest of the extras are several smaller Titlesets ranging from ~50 to ~280 MB.

The movie itself also has a playtime of 2 hrs and when you set a bitrate of 1000 or even more for the extras, there's not really much bitrate left to use for the movie...that's the reason why I tried to squeeze the extras down so much (being aware of crap quality for sure... :) ).

Greetz
69Mws

[69Mws]

Originally posted by BBWoof
Sure, send it to me in #doom9 if you would and leave me a PM that you've done it.

BBWOof

I'm not quite familiar with this "#doom9" (kinda IRC Channel?), I'll just send it to your mail-address which I already have. Don't panic, the clip is not verly large, just ~1 MB or so.

Greetz
69Mws

[baker]

theres a well known bug in CCE if the avg bitrates and max bitrates are too close, Perhaps there is a simliar bug for the min bitrates.

Baker

[kenma]

@BBWoof:

I'm just testing version 1.0.0.3, where can I download newer versions ?

[ShaneZ]

Originally posted by kenma
@BBWoof:

I'm just testing version 1.0.0.3, where can I download newer versions ?

http://docce4u.panthersden.com

[adam]

I didn't see any anywhere else to post bug reports, so sorry if this is misplaced

DoCCE has a major bug, IMO. It does not correctly set the luminence level, which can have a very noticable effect on quality. For a DVD source the luminance level should be set to 0-255 not 16-235. 16-235 just compresses the luma, and for a DVD source this has already been done. You want to use 0-255 to prevent further compression, because the source is already perfect as is. I think this has been explained pretty well in this thread http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=28815

as well as on the site linked to in that thread. I'd consider using DoCCE in my encodes if it wasn't for this bug. Also, I would think that this would be a pretty easy thing to fix, and it makes such a big difference in quality.

[69Mws]

@adam:

You can fix that anytime by yourself without waiting for a new release.

Enter the registry and go to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\template\

Under template are several folders each for every template. In that folders you'll find all settings regarding CCE incl. the luminance level.

The default setting is "0", so changing it to "1" (in decimal mode) should fix it, so that lum.level 0-255 will be set in the ecl-file, which is created by DoCCE4U.

Greetz
69Mws

[kenma]

is DoCCE4U only for CCE 2.50 ???

[69Mws]

Originally posted by kenma
is DoCCE4U only for CCE 2.50 ???

Until now only CCE 2.50 is supported, because of it's capability of saving and opening ecl-files.

I think BBWoof is working on the integration of ECLCCE in DoCCE4u, which allows to use then also Versions like 2.66

Greetz
69Mws

[adam]

69Mws good to know, I'll do that. I still think its important to correct this bug because it seems to be pervasive and I don't think too many people realize how much they are crippling the dynamic range of their film's colors. Every guide I see on this site says to encode in the 16-235 color space as well.

[69Mws]

I don't really know which setting should be used.

I also searched some german sites about that actually and they also stick to the setting 16 to 235 because that's the setting which is needed for playback on a TV Set, so they say. But I also noticed that this was mostly regarded in guides about SVCD Encoding.

I always used this setting and can't say that I got eye cancer from it :D

Actually I'm doing a movie with the 0 to 255 setting. I'll see about the results soon...

Can some of the in-depth professionals help us out here? :)

Greetz
69Mws

[Eyes`Only]

In ITU-R BT. 601-5, which is the international standard specifying the format of digital component video. Currently at version 5 (identified as 601-5), the range of luminance is defined as 16 to 235. I personally have done tests using both settings and couldn't tell the difference, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has actually seen a difference, instead of going on theory?

[adam]

I've run lots of tests and read lots of articles on this. Yes, 16-235 is the correct range for tv playback, and that is exactly why you should NOT set the encoder to this range. Camera's record colors outside of the range which a tv supports. So you, at some stage in your encoding process, compress the luminence scale to 16-235, what a tv supports. This has obviously already been done when the original DVD was made. When you set CCE to 16-235 you are not setting the output to this range, you are simply telling it to further compress the luma. This results in less than true black and less than true white. Depending on the source it can really result in a variety of things. Sometimes the movie appears too bright, but usually it makes it too dark, with black looking more like grey.

Here is a test you can run to verify this for yourself. Take a letterboxed source and only crop half the borders and only add new borders for this amount. Now do an encode in CCE at 16-235. Once its done, do it again, with the same amount cropped. Keep encoding and eventually you will see that the part of your border which you did not crop has become more and more grey compared to the border you have added. Everytime you encode in the 16-235 colorspace you are further compressing your luma and straying farther away from true black and true white. BTW: Make sure and test on a hardware player.

The source DVD has already had these values compressed. By setting DVD2AVI to either YUV output or RGB at tv scale you preserve the color space. So now you MUST set CCE to 0-255 to keep the colorspace as is.

If you were to set dvd2avi to RGB at pc scale then it would stretch the luminence scale out to 0-255, and you would want to encode at 16-235 to compress it back to spec again. This is what you must do in TMPGenc since by default it encodes in the 16-235 colorspace, though can be switched on the Quantize Matrix tab.

Granted, on most sources you are not going to see a difference either way but since its just a matter of using one setting rather than the other, its worth doing correctly.

Read that site that I linked to in the other thread, it explains this much better than I can.

[Eyes`Only]

I'm sold! Opening regedit right now... :D

[VerbaL]

Hi,

After reading the information about the luminance level, I would also like to start using that setting. I checked the registry value for DoCCE4U and that's set to 0. Should I set this value to 1 for 0-255 luminance level or is it something else?

[D3s7]

hey BBWoof...

how about an option to modify the header of the .ecl file... I use CCE 2.64 primarily and a 2.5 file works just fine if I modify the comment line at the head of the file...

If that could be set, then I could use docce4u w/ 2.64

Just a thought

[brashquido]

Very informative post adam, I'll be making that change as soon as I get a chance :)

[RB]

BTW, DVD2SVCD has always had that setting set to 0-255 in CCE, back to the earliest versions I can remember.