RealVideo 9 Information Thread Discussion

[kilg0r3]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold


1: (how to split at xxx mb) (how to split at xxx mb) I believe rmeditor (as done by AutoRV9) is the standard, and probably also the only way to split RM files.

hm, how does autorv9 do the split at a specified size? so far, i only found the options to indicate a time code for splitting.


5: (slightly jerky video)not sure about this one - what is your video card and screen refresh rate?

I am using a Matrox g400 16mb DH @ 1280*1028*32bit@85Hz

6: (undersized file)Why don't you instead 'trim' the video such that the black frames are not included in the encode?
i like to keep the music, and, my reasoning was that it might be possible to keep the music for the start credits with a monster delay but wasn't sure about the credits at the end of the movie. in ogm e.g., the file stops playing when the video stream is over; at least for me.

thank you very much for your patience

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
i like to keep the music, and, my reasoning was that it might be possible to keep the music for the start credits with a monster delay but wasn't sure about the credits at the end of the movie. in ogm e.g., the file stops playing when the video stream is over; at least for me.Er.. The movie starts out with nothing but music? Seems strange...

Regardless, you could treat them as three seperate jobs then link them toghter with smil. You may already be doing this with if you are encoding the audio and video seperatly.

Granted it wont give you one single cohesive file, but one click on the .smil file will link all three parts (and their audio if you do it seperatly).

[Pirks]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
usually if producer can not read the video in an AVI file, it is because the appropriate DirectShow or VfW codec is missing. Can you play the AVI file in a media player? What is the 4cc code of the format inside the AVI file?

Hello Karl!

Or maybe someone else here can help..

Where can I find RealAudio codec API docs? I found out that in Windows codec DLL cook3260.dll function raInitDecoder() has only one parameter while Linux codec lib version of the same function has two parameters. I'm stuck, somebody please help! Is there some SDK available online? Do I have to pay for it?

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by Sirber
The Media Player Classic with RV9 codec is doing a great job for playing RMVB. It has no post-processing, which makes the video less blurry.

I copied this from another thread, just to make sure this mis-understanding is cleared up:

There is no more post-processing in RealOne playing RV9 than in MPC playing RV9. MPC uses the exact same DLLs as RealOne, and the same decoding process takes place.

That said, we are looking into improvements in this area, and how to make it adjustable. The post processing in RV9 does not work like the post processing in ffdshow, and can not be separated from the decoding, or adjusted by itself without potentially affecting the video quality negatively. It can still be made adjustable, but it would be adjusted on the encoder side, with the setting transmitted in the bitstream.

[TSO COBOL]

We have made an english traduction of my autorv9 help guide (one of two official guide).This guide is for newbie, in fact I think that autorv9 is simple for expiremented people.

you can find it at http://www.formidable.firstream.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=43&page=1

were all come from France or Belgium and it's our first english translation (but I don't think the last) so if someone see something strange in the text don't hesitate to contact us at

warzat@swing.be
TSO.COBOL@tsocobol.com

thanks :)

[midiguy]

I just encoded The Matrix trailer with RV9 @ 650 kbps (448 x 336 resolution) and it looks reallly good. the only thing stopping me from using RV9 is that we can't control the post-processing (whether it be in the encoder or decoder) as of yet. that would be sooo sweet!

[Valky]

hmm.. I wonder why you people need post-processing if your encodings look really good.. :)

But my real question was to karl_lillevold:

What is your or helix-comminications opinion about sharing these dll-files only so that people can watch some RV9 stuff with MPC, but they don't have to download that RealOne etc?
My guess is that you dont like the idea too much, cause the dll-files can't be downloaded separately from your site?

Cause I know people who are too scared to try this new codec just because of those horrible players in the past. And even if I know there isn't really nothing wrong with this product nowadays it isn't easy to convince them. Althought I also hate that damn MessageCenter that opens every time with the player.

So is it okay them to try with these dll-files and MPC that somebody on this thread suggested?

[ReTroAcTive]

Originally posted by Valky
hmm.. I wonder why you people need post-processing if your encodings look really good.. :)


the point is, we neither want nor need the post-processing, its built into the player when you click use optimized video display under the performance tab in the players properties. wmc also plays the same way if this option is clicked. you can uncheck this option but youll need more cpu and video mem in order to play it smooth. i must say the video looks much better when its unchecked.

i found out that i could use mpc to play my rmvb files from one of karls posts here on this forum.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by Valky
What is your or helix-comminications opinion about sharing these dll-files only so that people can watch some RV9 stuff with MPC, but they don't have to download that RealOne etc?
My guess is that you dont like the idea too much, cause the dll-files can't be downloaded separately from your site?

Cause I know people who are too scared to try this new codec just because of those horrible players in the past. And even if I know there isn't really nothing wrong with this product nowadays it isn't easy to convince them. Althought I also hate that damn MessageCenter that opens every time with the player.

So is it okay them to try with these dll-files and MPC that somebody on this thread suggested?
Well, when you install RealOne, you agree to what's called a EULA (End User License Agreement). Almost the first sentence reads as follows:
"REDISTRIBUTION NOT PERMITTED" ...and it goes on to discuss details. This restriction is very common and I am sure is included in all commercial software these days.

Note that if you install RealOne and follow the tips I give in the first post, the Message Center that most users find very annoying, will not pop up unless you run RealOne. And you don't have to run it if you use the original MPC instead, as distributed by Gabest as a stand-alone executable.

[kilg0r3]

@ karl_lillevold

i am still experiencing jerky playback. i treid out different resolutions down to 800*600 to no avail. do you have any idea?

i have uploaded a small (3mb) clip gone now
the sound in thei clip is completely off for another reason

[karl_lillevold]

No, sorry, I am not sure what the problem could be. Due to your computer screen refresh rate not being a multiple of the video frame rate (85 Hz refresh, 25 fps video), the display time accuracy will always be limited by that difference. This may be visible if you are very sensitive to jitter, but should be more or less the same for all media players and formats. If you see more than this, and more jitter in RealVideo that other content, there could be another problem. I don't have much experience with the Matrox G400; have mostly been using ATI and nVidia, where playback is very smooth. I will ask our renderer expert if he knows of any differences in timing for the G400 that could affect jitter.

Could you take a look at the files in http://www.lillevold.com/files/jitter.zip (one RV9, one XviD) and see if you notice a difference in the amount of jitter? On my system both play back pretty smoothly.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
i have uploaded a small (3mb) clip to www.mynetcologne.de/~nc-allgeife8/mmm.rmvb Playback of this clip is very smooth for me.

[kilg0r3]

Ok her comes some data:

cpu: axp 1700+
vga: matrox g400 dual head 16mb
sound: soundblaster pci 128

os: winxp pro sp1
directx: 8.1

xvid clips generally play smoothly.

just discovered that the sound stream is 44.1khz which is strange since the source is a dvd. strange, cannot rember resampling it.:confused:
------
o.k., i tried those clips, and, the real clip plays definitely less smooth. it looks as if video acceleration were not switched on but it is. i'll instal directx 9 now. god be with me ..
-------
o.k. installation went fine. nothing seems to be more broken than before. but the jitter is still there

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by kilg0r3

just discovered that the sound stream is 44.1khz which is strange since the source is a dvd. strange, cannot rember resampling it. Both Real Producer and Helix producer, AFAIK, resample to 44.1khz. They accept the input of 48khz so you don't have to do it yourself. Again, AFAIK, it is a compatiblity thing since Real's format wasn't nessarily created for what this webboard uses it for.

--

my computer is also an axp 1700+, but i have an ATI Radeon 9700.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
o.k. installation went fine. nothing seems to be more broken than before. but the jitter is still there
I asked around and it seems the Matrox drivers have problems with the DirectX function GetScanLine() http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/htm/idirectdrawgetscanline.asp , which we use to achieve as accurate blitting as possible. This is why we need special handling code if we detect Matrox. If you PM me your email I can ask our Matrox expert who implemented this code (who currently has a Parhelia) to get in touch with you. Other than that I am afraid there is not much I can do.

[Rash]

Hey Karl, guess what? Today I tested RV9 myself and I just loved the results. Really. So I'm thinking about making RV9 my default format for all my encodings. Still, I have some questions and a problem.

When I play a RV9 (.rmvb) on RealOne the image is perfect but sometimes it seems chopped. This happens mainly when the camera is panning at a quite high speed. It is like the monitor didn't finish scanning one frame when RealOne is already sending the next frame to the video card (and to the monitor). If it was a game I'll be sure it is a VSync problem. I don't see it on DivX or WMV. Still, I'm using ATI Catalyst 3.0 which I know still have some bugs and you guys and ATI guys are trying to fix it. ;)

One question I have is how many subtitle streams does RV9 supports? I mean, how many languages? One other question is the surround mode (option available on AutoRV9) is 5.1, right? Does it keep the 5.1 information from AC3, for example?
Finally, will there be a GUI to Helix Producer?

Now, there is just one thing to ask about AutoRV9. Why doesn't the Quality (bits/pix*frm) on the codec tab doesn't change when I increase/decrease the resolution? And, will there be a compressibility test on AutoRV9? Is it possible? :)

Pfew! That's it. Thank you all for your attention. ;)

[Caddis]

@Karl

I too, am having this jitter/choppy behavior with my playback of my RV9 encodes.
I noticed in a previous reply you mentioned it could be a Matrox problem but I'm using a Geforce2 MX400. It really shows up bad when panning or high motion scenes. I tried that "jitter" clip you linked to earlier in this thread and the XVID played fine but the RV9 is terrible. I would really like to find out what this problem is.
I reinstalled RealOneV2 as well.

I linked to an exaggerated picture of this jitter

http://members.shaw.ca/fab1/Files4U/jitter_tearing.png

Also, is there any news on the DirectShow filter as to allow us to playback RV9 with other players?

Thanks...

[Dark-Cracker]

hi,

@ Rash

>Why doesn't the Quality (bits/pix*frm) on the codec tab doesn't change when I increase/decrease the resolution?

it's perhaps a bug i check if the refresh for the quality value is used when u change resolution.

>And, will there be a compressibility test on AutoRV9? Is it possible?

yes i will add it as soon i finish the autodub release.

++

[Rash]

Thank you very much Dark! ;) These are really good news!

For now, I'm guessing myself the Quality values and it seems I'm always right. :) (or it is the Helix Producer backing me up, hehe)

Good job! :cool:

[gabest]

Originally posted by Caddis
@Karl
I noticed in a previous reply you mentioned it could be a Matrox problem but I'm using a Geforce2 MX400. It really shows up bad when panning or high motion scenes. I tried that "jitter" clip you linked to earlier in this thread and the XVID played fine but the RV9 is terrible. Very handy little clips, thanks Karl :) However, I also have this vsync prob in realone and mpc w/ real's renderer on a gf4ti4200 card. When I try to manually render the frames using GetScanLine it is still not looking perfect, but the problem is only noticable about once per second and mainly near to the top of the screen.

edit: Just shut down the tv tuner application to let the player use overlay and it plays smooth now! Hm, but why can't the other time :confused:

[karl_lillevold]

This is great feedback. As it happens, I also have a GF4 4200 Ti just like gabest. So I double-checked my jitter test clip, and found that it indeed played back with some pretty noticable jitter problems, compared to the XviD clip, even with overlay. I recently changed to an LCD display, which lowered the screen refresh from 85 to 60 Hz. Since this clip is 30 fps, it should play back with close to perfect sync, but it does not. I don't know what the problem could be :confused:, but I have forwarded it to our renderer experts. This is something that can be improved.

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by Caddis
I noticed in a previous reply you mentioned it could be a Matrox problem but I'm using a Geforce2 MX400. It really shows up bad when panning or high motion scenes. I tried that "jitter" clip you linked to earlier in this thread and the XVID played fine but the RV9 is terrible. I would really like to find out what this problem is.
I reinstalled RealOneV2 as well.
Based on your exaggarated picture, this looks like tearing, and much worse than the issue I mentioned in my previous post. Tearing can appear if you don't have overlay, and the renderer can not flip surfaces correctly. Do you have TV tuner or some other settings that could prevent the RV renderer from obtaining an overlay? Is your Tools->Preferences->Hardware in RealOne set to Best Performance in the Video Card Compatibility section?

[karl_lillevold]

@Rash:
Lots of questions, let me see if I can answer some of them:

Choppy playback with tearing: do you have overlay? (you can check with Alt-PrtScn with RealOne in focus to copy the current window to your clipboard, then paste into Accesories->Paint. If the video shows up and not just a black frame, you don't have overlay)

The only way to do sub-titles with RV9 is to use RealText, and SMIL to render both the video and the RealText stream. You can have as many RT streams as you like, and with SMIL choose the stream that corresponds to your chosen language. It is not possible to mux sub-titles streams into an RM file.

The surround mode is Dolby ProLogic Surround (for now), and not a discrete solution like AC3. This means that the surround information is downmixed from 5.1 channels into 2 channels, where the back channel is encoded in the phase difference between the two channels. So when played back through a Dolby Surround decoder, it will decode the surround information from the 2 channels, and properly send the approriate signal to front center, right, left, and rear speakers.

Producer GUI: I don't think there are plans to release the GUI source code, but there are already at least three 3rd party encoder GUI tools, but more may be on the way. See the first post.

[Rash]

Thank you Karl. ;)

Well, I don't have overlay on RealOne because of that Catalyst issue. ;) So it is not a problem right now. (Could you tell me if it is OK to use the Helix Client? Thanks)

Thank you also for your explanations on Surround and the RealText. ;)

Well, about the GUI, I was just wondering if there would be an official one. Not that I wouldn't use the amazing AutoRV9. :)

[Caddis]

@Karl

I don't have any Capture Card or device installed, ever.
I've had "Force Overlay Mixer" ticked in ZoomPlayer and FFDshow but, when I unticked them there is still no change and the choppy playback is still bad.
My hardware controls in RealOne are set to "Best Performance".
I've reinstalled other driver's several times and no change.

Thanks...

[midiguy]

where can I find these motion test clips (XviD + RV9) that everyone is talking about?? I looked throughout the thread (As well as others and searched too) but I can't seem to find it. link me please thanks! bye!:D

[karl_lillevold]

http://www.lillevold.com/jitter.zip

[midiguy]

thanks.

[midiguy]

the XviD clip plays fluidly and has great motion throughout. the RV9 clips has god motion some of the time, but like once every second or so, I notice a jump (or jitter), (especially in the beginning of the clip). I hope this gets fixed soon! (karl, it would be cool if you could make another test clip when this issue is resolved, so then you could get feedback from everyone to see if the prob is gone, just a thought).

[RadicalEd]

this is interesting. The XviD clip played in wmp 6.4 decoded by ffdshow is, as everyone's been saying, generally free of jitter. The RV9 clip showed a bunch of jitter. The interesting part is that when I played the XviD clip in RealOne the tearing effect mentioned above which wasnt there with the other two clips was really noticable :\

[karl_lillevold]

FYI: ATI posted updated drivers Feb. 10th, Catalyst version 3.10. However, RealVideo playback still has the same bugs as discussed previously in this thread, probably relevant for models 8500 and higher.

According to ATI, they have identified the issue, and a release of a fix is scheduled for mid-March.

Thanks for your patience...

[31 Flavas]

Once again, thank you karl.

[Rash]

Damn!! ATI release the update but not the correction! :(

Anyway, does anybody know when they will release a new RealOne? Thanks. ;)

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by Rash

Anyway, does anybody know when they will release a new RealOne? Thanks. ;) When it is released? :)

[kilg0r3]

@everybody having a jitter problem

try getting your hands on v1 of realone player. at least for me with a matrox g400 it is gone.

[Sirber]

Best video quality at any bitrate, best audio quality at any bitrate.

These are my favorites codecs :)

[phrentec]

@karl_lillevold: Would it be possible for you to help Gabest to implement a way to resize quicktime media from within media player classic. RealOne seems to be able, to an extent, to play and resize quicktime videos. And it would be good if MPC could in a similar way do the same.

-best regards

[midiguy]

well, about the jitter bug, I always DID think that real player was playing my video files a little more "jerky" or "slower" than it would normally play, I just kind of dismissed my observation as being my imagination, but I guess not.. anyone know when this thing will be resolved? also, appearently something that is causing this excessive blur problem is a resize bug in realone player. If you use MPC you will notice that this bug does not exist, and video looks less blurry (although the video jerking bug still exists, since that bug is in the decoder and not the player). any comments on all this?!

[Sirber]

With Helix Producer Plus (9.0.1), I always have to reinstall my codecs in order to be able to decode DIVX or XVID. I don't understand...

[jonny]

Any plans/news about a vfw interface implementation?

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by midiguy
well, about the jitter bug, I always DID think that real player was playing my video files a little more "jerky" or "slower" than it would normally play, I just kind of dismissed my observation as being my imagination, but I guess not.. anyone know when this thing will be resolved? also, appearently something that is causing this excessive blur problem is a resize bug in realone player. If you use MPC you will notice that this bug does not exist, and video looks less blurry (although the video jerking bug still exists, since that bug is in the decoder and not the player). any comments on all this?!
The jitter problem appears to be worse on some video cards and not really a problem on others. For those cards with a problem it is worse at typical LCD 60 Hz refresh rates than CRT at 85 Hz or higher. Accurate timing during playback is very hard, and since the video frame rate is usually not a multiple of the screen refresh rate, it is impossible to be as accurate as your TV. Not to mention how you are limited by the timer accuracy of the OS, with its non-deterministic behavior in certain cases, along with how each video card driver and manufacturer handles the necessary API calls differently.
May I ask which video card you have? (I am assuming you have the latest driver, like everyone reading this forum..:) ) The target is to fix this for the next release of RealOne (V.3).

[midiguy]

Matrox G400 32 MB

umm, what about the blur bug in real one player that I mentioned above? thanks!! and nice to know that it will be resolved! also, all this talk abouit refresh rates and OS environments and all, if all this is true, how come other formats don't suffer from this same jerking problem?

[karl_lillevold]

I will specifically mention the G400 to make sure this is looked at for the jitter reduction. I still don't understand how RealOne can make the video more blurry than MPC, since they both use the same renderer, so this is also something we have to try to reproduce. It does not happen for nVidia or ATI, the systems I have easy access to.

[midiguy]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
I will specifically mention the G400 to make sure this is looked at for the jitter reduction. I still don't understand how RealOne can make the video more blurry than MPC, since they both use the same renderer, so this is also something we have to try to reproduce. It does not happen for nVidia or ATI, the systems I have easy access to.
I'm not sure if it does make it more blurry.. I just seem to see some more artifacts in mpc than I do in realone player, but at the same time, the image does look a bit more detailed.. I can't explain it, maybe its just my imagination.. maybe the bug is in realone player on playback, and has nothing to do with the decoder (DLLs)?

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

>For those cards with a problem it is worse at typical LCD 60 Hz refresh rates than CRT at 85 Hz or higher. Accurate timing during playback is very hard, and since the video frame rate is usually not a multiple of the screen refresh rate, it is impossible to be as accurate as your TV

see....this is interesting!
remember me?
i said that i have problem on tv-out with
realmedia files.......and guess on what refresh rate
tvout is.......yeap,60hz.......

anyhow few digressions:
works flawlessly for me on win98 (seems even if i use
same tvout software as used on w2k)
ie. wk2 tvout jerks,win98 tvout doesn't.......

avi doesn't jerk and it has same framerate
as real.......right?right!
how can avi do it and real can't?
( no 25fps avi jerks on either w2k or win98 )

how come your renderer has ANYTHING to do with refresh rate
at all?
GPU is providing refresh rate no matter the source
video framerate..
don't tell me rplayer has to produce 60fps on 60hz
or
85fps on 85hz refrsh rate.....


point3:get this fixed already!

will the fix be available as a patch?
modem folks don't like 12MB dloads,let me tell you.(hehe)

[kilg0r3]

@karl_lillevold

hi karl, probabely you could encourage somebody to look into xcd-support too?

[karl_lillevold]

See my reply here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40097

I am not sure which other features than random bit error resiliency would be needed, but I will look into it.

[kilg0r3]

@karl_lillevold

hi karl, might i dare to direct your attention to a producer problem in the x2real thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46669)?

[midiguy]

meh, any news about RV9 stuff? any idea when the next version of the decoder will be out (v3 I assume?) the only things stopping me from using RV9 is the jitter problems and the uncontrollable post-processing (be it on the encoder or decoder side).

[karl_lillevold]

V3 will be out in 2003 ;) I am afraid that's all I can say about V3, but it will have some really nice features.

Regarding the resolution of some video cards' jitter problems: Since V3 will take some time, I will look into if it's possible to build a V2 DLL that includes the fix, but no promises..

With regards to encoder and decoder DLLs with adjustable filtering: I actually have this running on my own system, but I got stuck doing a lot of other tasks, and have not had time to complete this work. What I would like to do is finish them enough to perhaps release them on some sort of limited trial basis to get some feedback, but I am not yet sure I will be able to do this.