ReClock DirectShow filter : try it !

[ookzDVD]

@ogo,

your latest filter 0.99b is wroking fine on my system,
I notice faster loading, but sometimes I have a problem which the movie is played faster and then normal again.

[ogo]

Version 0.99c is out on my website :)

It mainly fix problems with sound, add a tray icon, and has some tweaks for AC3

Cheers
OGO

[Sumster]

Ogo... excellent work as usual. I have been doing quite a bit of testing and logging with the AC3 output on the latest 0.99c. I have set the MaxLatency to 9 so that I can look at overall trends only, and not microadjustments.

1) First, I have noticed that AC3 repeats (ie. slowing down audio by adding time) sound way worse than AC3 dropouts on my external receiver (dropouts are hardly noticable)

2) I used a 20 minute DIVX and logged the output at various settings. The findings were quite interesting...

a) If I played the DIVX at original speed (23.976 fps), then over time there was an average of 6.43 AC3 REPEATS per 100 seconds of video. This means that the AC3 stream had to slow down 205.76 msec per 100 seconds to stay in sync with the video (0.21%). These repeats were very noticable and there were NO DROPOUTS.

b) If I sped up the video to 24 fps, then the number of repeats decreased to 4.43 AC3 repeats per 100 seconds. Here the AC3 stream only had to slow down by 141.76 msec to stay in sync with the video (since the video has been sped up)... 0.14% difference. Again, these repeats were noticable and there were NO DROPOUTS.

c) If I sped up the video to 25 fps, then there were no repeats, but only DROPOUTS (ie. the AC3 stream was trying to speed up). There were 122.7 DROPOUTS per 100 seconds of video or the AC3 has to speed up by 3925 msec or 3.9%. Ironically, despite the high number of dropouts, they were not as noticable as the low number of repeats!

3) If the framerate of the DIVX were to be calculated to match the unaltered AC3 stream (and create no repeats/dropouts), it would have to be in case a) 24.025 fps, b) 24.034 fps, and c) 24.055 fps.


Ogo, when Reclock isn't used, then I am assuming that Windows tries to match the video to the audio by default, but it does not change the overall framerate of the video, but just adds/drops frames creating jerkiness. Would it be possible to have a setting of 24.05 fps so that there are only a few dropouts and no repeats over time in the AC3 stream? Even better, could the framerate of the video change dynamically to reduce latency rather than changing the audio (leaning towards the faster video speed so as to reduce repeats)?

I am assuming, of course, that changing the global framerate of the video will not introduce significant jerkiness (using Reclock my video has remained very smooth at all fps settings, even if they are not a multiple of my refresh rate).

Thanks again...

Sumster

[ogo]

Sumster, you understood very well how it works :)

It's a pity i don't have an AC3 decoder to listen the results, but it's interesting to know that repeats are not nice to hear whereas drops nearly can't be listened.

Ogo, when Reclock isn't used, then I am assuming that Windows tries to match the video to the audio by default
Yes, the default audio renderer slave the reference clock to the audio clock.

using Reclock my video has remained very smooth at all fps settings, even if they are not a multiple of my refresh rate).
Interesting. It seems that the default audio renderer use some rough algorithm to slave the clock. I believe this is why the sound interleaving settings in AVI files seems so important. Also, the resolution of the default reference clock is not very good (in mS), whereas mine is under 1uS (it's not based on windows clock).

Would it be possible to have a setting of 24.05 fps so that there are only a few dropouts and no repeats over time in the AC3 stream? Even better, could the framerate of the video change dynamically to reduce latency rather than changing the audio (leaning towards the faster video speed so as to reduce repeats)?
What you want indeed, is a good audio-slaved clock. It is already implemented in ReClock when you choose "Disable clocks correction", but only for normal PCM sound. So i will try to implement this for AC3 SPDIF in next version :)

[Sumster]

Ogo,

You are right! I have this particular clip i use... a long panning scene at the beginning of Godfather part III that is absolutely horrible using the default Windows clock. I switched to PCM sound, and "disabled clocks correction" within Reclock --> voila! it still played smoothly!

Therefore, the problem on my system must be the inaccurate Windows audio-slaved clock as you said. Also, most of my older DIVX collection has AC3 muxed using Nandub (ugggh!).... but, somehow, Reclock seems to overcome this terrible muxing problem.

Waiting anxiously to the next release :D

Sumster

[Chibi Jasmin]

@ogo:

Now ReClock is becoming better and better, it's time to start nit-picking: :D

1. Docs: Since you have the sourcecode in your distribution archive, it is no longer a secret how 'ReClock will correct the system clock with information gathered in real time from your video card.' :)
2. I still don't think (reasons explained above), your instructions on how to use ReClock with 'DualHead' (more on this in 3) cards make any sense for Matrox cards, so I vote for making a note about that. We should finally investigate, if there are two independent clocks on Matrox cards (might also be interesting for the other cards, I am not sure about the instructions for them either, but don't know too much about other cards) or not...does having 2 RAMDACs automatically mean having two clocks? If yes, they still might be dependent on each other, am I right?
3. The term 'DualHead' is a trademark of Matrox and refers to their very own two-display technology. So 'dual head video card (a card capable to display different images on your monitor and on your TV at the same time like a Radeon for example)' isn't correct. They all have their own names for that (NVidia=TwinView, ATI=?). Maybe you should just remove the term 'dual head' and describe it differently...I vote for that as a proud Matrox owner not wanting to see the term 'DualHead' abused! :D

Okay, enough of that...I am still happily using ReClock for movie viewing since it came out...thanx for a great one!

[kallekill]

What kind of audiocards are you guys using? On my old computer I had a soundblaster live and the playback of movies was really smooth. The only problem I had was that often when I was downloading stuff at the same time as watching a movie, the movie sometimes stuttered for less than half a second.

Now I have build a new computer and I have this problem that the movie sometimes skips a second or pauses, than fast forward a second. It usually happen less than once/movie but when it does it is really irritating. I have tried Win 2000, XP, removed every component in the computer without any luck. The only thing that seems to help is running Win 98. I haven't had the time to see if reclock solves the problem, but I will report if it does.

I have a audigy card in the new computer (I have also tried the sb live but still got skips) and the playback is very smooth otherwise. I haven't found any problems with using the "do resampling with hardware" option in reclock so I guess the audigy can handle this option without any sync problems.

(When watching movies with TV-out the framerate isn't that smooth on both my computers. Using reclock seems to make it much smoother)

[Chibi Jasmin]

I am using an SBLive 5.1!

[Sumster]

Kallekill....

I'm using an old SB Live with digital out.... I had the exact same problems as yourself with 98% of the video being smooth, but just certain scenes having stuttering or a sudden speed up in playback speed. Long panning scenes are notorious bringing this phenomenon out.

Reclock has fixed all the above mentioned problems --> skipped/repeated video frames, sudden framerate increases, and AC3 muxing problems.

Sumster


P.S. I found that without Reclock, using VMR was much smoother than using the overlay mixer (with the old renderer) in these long panning scenes. With Reclock, however, it does not matter which video renderer I use, or how many extra filters I throw into the video, the playback remains smooth (I am using an 1800XP, so the processor never becomes the bottleneck).

[kallekill]

Sumster...

I don't think we have the exact problem, because if I play the scene that just skipped a second time, there is no skip this time, so my problem doesn't seem to be related to specific scenes. It just happens randomly. I was thinking it could be my motherboard causing it because I had a lot of problems with it before and finally found out that my motherboard was incompatible with IBM's latest harddrives. The IDE controller seems a little weird.

A friend has a motherboard with the same brand, alhough he has a compleatly different chipset. He also has the same problem. It is a little weird though that I only get skips in Windows 2000 and and XP and not with Windows 98 so it might be software-related after all. I hope that reclock solves it because i'm really tired of this.

[kallekill]

I might add that both the picture and the sound skips. Quite irritating when you miss part of the dialoge because it skips a second. I'm going to watch a movie with Resync now and see if it helps

[Sumster]

Ogo,

I just had a theoretical question.... remember how you mentioned that Windows, by default, uses a audio-based clock and that this clock is inaccurate by millisecondss. Reclock however is accurate to the microsecond. Isn't Reclock going to base it's clock on the audio?? Therefore, if the audio clock is inaccurate (or has a lot of variation), won't Reclock by default have this variation as well?


I know that it works (even with clock correction disabled, just using Reclock smoothens out the video).... just curious as to the actual theory behind it.

Thanks...

[Airw0lf]

I might have found a bug with the colour indication on the tray icon. I assume it should be changing colour dynamically, right? For example, when I play a PAL DVD, the tray icon starts off red, then turns green as the framerate and refresh rate matching and detection kicks in. This is obviously the desired scenario. On the other hand, when I play an NTSC DVD off my hard disk (using Zoom Player), the icon is initially red (since NTSC framerate detection is not supported). But when I set the framerate manually to 29.97, shouldn't the icon turn green afterwards?

Minor thing, doesn't worry me, but thought you (ogo) would like to know...

[telexxingou]

hello....

does anybody have Cmedia 8738 based sound card and working with reclock ?
i've an Asus P4b266-E with this audio chip and i can't get any AC3 spdif sound if reclock is loaded :(

i've tested many Cmedia drivers and nothing :(

somebody can help me ?

thx :)

My config :
P4 1,8Ghz
Asus P4B266-E with Cmedia 8738 chip sound
640Mo
GEFORCE 4 TI4200
...
codecs :
Video : Divx 5.02, Xvid...
Sound : MP3, Moonlight Audiodecod 1.23 and/or Intervideo
Divx Player : Bsplayer, Zoom Player, Media player 6.4,...
nothing work on AC3...with reclock

under Bsplayer, i must select Cmedia Wave Device out else no AC3 :(
under Zoomplayer, reclock selected but no 5.1 (Ac3) out on Spdif, only surround....

[kallekill]

I noticed that Reclock doesn't seem to load with the latest version of BS Player. Just so that you know

[ogo]

Sumster> Do you know which version of BSPlayer does not work with reclock ? There was a problem on some PC when you quit bsplayer with version 0.99c but it's solved in next version (not out yet)

telexxingou> You're not alone ! I'm working with someone that have the same card than you, and the same problems. For now i don't have the solution (if only i had this card in my hands ...). I have however a question for you : when you activate AC3 using the default wave renderer (which should be working, what do you see in the properties page of the waveout renderer (format tag, etc ...) ?

Airw0lf> You're right, i changed a little bit tray icons colors for next version.

Sumster> The audio clock speed difference (what i call inacuracy in my bad english) has no importance, and has no consequence on reclock. However variation in speed of audio clock would have bad consequence, but i doubt the audio clock has such variations, since it's an hardware clock based on some crystal.

Next version of reclock will be out maybe saturday or sunday if i find time to finish my stuff with AC3 :)

[Chibi Jasmin]

Is it possible, you make ReClock not load (and use DefaultDirectSound instead), if I play audio-only files through DirectShow? I wouldn't have to unregister ReClock every time I want to play an mp3/ac3/dts with directshow.

As rendering these files with ReClock (with clock correction) doesn't work here, because it constantly corrects the clock going higher and higher since I finally have some crackling (and disabling clock correction is an additional step just as unregistering)....

So as clock correction is not needed for audio only, why not just make reclock load, if there is also a video to be played?

[ogo]

Don't worry next version automatically disable clock correction when playing files with no video :)
Maybe i should rename the setting "disable clocks correction" to "slave reference clock to audio" don't you think ?

Audio slaved clocks in new version are completely new for both PCM and AC3/SPDIF. Hope it will work for everyone :)

[Chibi Jasmin]

Sounds great... :)

And the renaming you propose also make sense IMHO...

Your tool is getting better and better...and closer and closer to V1.0 :D

[kallekill]

I didn't get Reclock to load in BS player 0.86 in windows 2000. Seems to work fine in Windows 98 though.

[telexxingou]

@ogo :
below your request when reading divx AC3 on cmedia wave render :
wformattag : 146
nchannels : 2
nsamplespersec:48000
nAvgBytePerSec:192000
nBlockAlign: 4
Fréquence : 1.00

hope it'll help you and me :) lol

ps :i'm french too , if you want to ICQ with me for testing or other , mail me to telexxingou@hotmail.com

A+: )

[Jorgosch]

I'm sad to report that on my computer Reclock does exactly... nothing.
I have a ATI Radeon8500 derivate and a SB Live! value.
Filter never loads. When I try to set Monitor 1 to TV, my system wreaks havoc and is totally unpredictable. Tried disabling TvOut, didn't help.
*sigh*

[Airw0lf]

Jorgosch - what are you using to play your media files? Not all players will be able to access reclock. In my case, I can't use PowerDVD to watch DVDs with ReClock. But if I use ZoomPlayer and specify that I want to use ReClock with DVD playback, then I am fine. You can also use windows media player with ReClock. In the new version you will notice the tray icon as soon as the filter loads, so it's easy to check up on. Lastly, some people are having trouble with the latest BSPlayer, so I would stay away from that for now.

[Jorgosch]

I had tried ZoomPlayer, Media Player 6.4, Media Player Classic, PowerDivXNextGen and PowerDVD.

[Jorgosch]

Ok, since I seemed to be the only one having problems, I had another, closer look at ZoomPlayer. It actually worked when I set the following options:
In -> Player Options -> Manual Filters :
- Button REFRESH LIST (Reclock appears in audio filters)
- Use custom audio in Media and DVD mode
- Manual Filters: Using Filter File (Was "Auto by extension" before).

Now I have to go and check the benefits, especially with my ac3filter... see ya :-)

[Airw0lf]

Jorgosch - yup, if you're watching a *DVD*, that's what you need to do in Zoom Player. PowerDVD flat out won't work as far as I can see. But for general .avi, .mpg files, reclock will activate itself in media player or zoom player...

[Jorgosch]

Well, it didn't activate by itself, that's what I've already told you.

[sillKotscha]

sidenote:

reclock works as well if *.cda tracks (music CD's) are played ;)

[kallekill]

I'm having problem with a mpg-movie captured from tv at 29.97 fps. When I play it reclock resamples to 30fps but sometimes the audio repeats and you get desync sound of several seconds.

[LaFouine]

YES ! BRAVO !

With 0.99c I finnaly get no more sync problem in AC3 passtrough mode !
So great job ! Thank you very much !!

[ogo]

Next version of reclock will be out tonight (had no time yesterday to do it). It has many changes in sound to fix problems (AC3, ZoomPlayer in DVD mode) and add new features (frame rate cache, SMP support, better handling of files without video) ...

I'll do a review of your questions tomorrow :)

In the meantime, if you have problems send me your logs, and tell me in your email what is your nickname in the forum so i can respond you :)

[ms]

Hi,

First of all: reClock is great! Keep working on it.

I've read the discussion about SPDIF/AC3 output and reclock with great interest.
I have tried reclock with analog audio output and I was very happy about the results :) . The problem is the AC3 output. My external decoder mutes audio for about one second if a AC3-frame is dropped or duplicated. So SPDIF/AC3 output is useless for me :( . I thought about the problem of the impossibility to do a AC3 sampling rate conversion (without a complete ac3 decompression and compression).

I think there a 3 ways of playing a movie with AC3 digital output:

1. The "normal" Windows way: duplicating or dropping video frames to stay sync with the audio -> jerky playback :(

2. The "reclock way" : duplicating or dropping ac3 frames (yes, ac3 also has frames ;) ) -> bad audio playback :(

3. My idea: adjust the framerate of the video to the exactly needed speed and play ac3 stream at the original audio speed.

I known that my way would need much more cpu power (because ajust means not only duplication oder dropping frames, it means rerendering the movie).
I have written a small programm in C++ which does framerate conversions with AVI files without jerky playback (because frames are interporlated). The algorithem runs fast enought to handle a realtime conversion and it is not optimized (MMX...). Of cause I loose a bit picture quality, but it is nearly not visible (tryed with DVD-source material).

Can that be a way to achieve smooth audio AND video playback ??

If you are interested, I can send you the EXE and/or source code.

Greetings

MS

PS. Sorry for my bad school english, I hope you unterstand what I mean...

[Jorgosch]

3. My idea: adjust the framerate of the video to the exactly needed speed and play ac3 stream at the original audio speed.


Excuse me if my question is silly but isn't this exactly the microsoft way? :-)

[ms]

3. My idea: adjust the framerate of the video to the exactly needed speed and play ac3 stream at the original audio speed.



Excuse me if my question is silly but isn't this exactly the microsoft way? :-)


No,it's different.

Example: Refresh rate of your screen is 75 Hz. You have a movie encoded at 24 FPS. But we need 25 FPS (because 25*3=75) to avoid tearing.
If we can not speed up the playback (because of the AC3 problem), we have 2 possibilities:

1. simply duplicate on frame -> jerky (windows way)
2. modify all 24 frames an insert a fitting 25th. ->smooth playback

The 2nd needs much cpu power. But it is possible to reduce the needed cpu power when you only recalcualte some frames (for example 2 before and 2 after the inserted frame).

MS

[Jorgosch]

See, and that's the reason I became a lawyer and not an engineer :-)))

[Sumster]

MS..

I think when ogo releases his next version tonight, you will see a solution to your problem. I noticed the same things as you, but ironically, if you use a more accurate audio-based clock so that just the framerate is adjusted, the stuttering disappears.

However, just slight changes in the framerate (eg. 23.976 to 24.05)according to the audio are enough to make playback completely smooth even if the framerate IS NOT a multiple of the refresh rate. I don't think the entire video stream has to be processed in order to achieve slight changes in framerate.

Just my two cents worth... OGO, can't wait until you next release!

-Sumster

[ogo]

Ok guys, version 0.99d is out on my website. Please see changelog for bug fixes and new features.

Sound internals have been reworked especially for AC3. It's still not good but better i think :) the PCM renderer is also better !

ms, this new version implements your point 3 but smarter than windows. Perhaps it is your solution :) See "slave reference clock to audio" setting in properties panel.
Frame rate interpolation would be a good idea, but would require another filter just before the video renderer. Quite a lot of work (i think video interpolation require motion estimation, etc ....)

Cheers!
OGO

Edit: i highly suggest you to install DX9 to use this version of ReClock

[Chibi Jasmin]

Thanx again for another version of your great tool...still working fine! :)

[Sumster]

OGO!

Amazing work! I upgraded to Catalyst 3.0 and DX 9 before using.... excellent! I've now tried my most difficult DIVX files and DVD's and no problems whatsoever! Absolutely smoooth video in Audio-Slave mode, despite framerate not being a multiple of refresh.

There are still one or two AC3 dropouts/repeats I can hear, and they are present in the LOG file as well. Likely due to my system doing things in the background rather than reclock (eg. I could manually create tons of them if I scrolled up and down the LOG file with a movie playing).

I tested it with both AC3 and DTS streams... no problems.

THANKS AGAIN! I would say this is worthy of a 1.0 label!

-Sumster

[kallekill]

Did a fast check with the latest Reclock and the repeating sound problem I had seems to be fixed. Didn't upgrade to directx 9 though, because I have heard that it is full of bugs and not ready to be released. A friend of mine had to reinstall windows after installing directx 9. just a word of warning.

[ookzDVD]

@ogo,

The latest one 0.99d is very stable on my system,
all are working well. Thank you for your great work.

PS. to be honest, even I can't notice any difference between use/no use the ReClock, while playing on PC or TV use TVTool, even I've followed all the guides. :(

[oddball]

I don't like to cause strife either. But I've uninstalled it as I found no use for it. It made no significant difference for me neither. The speedup/slowdown stuff would only come in handy for recording to VCR for me.

But I am sure it may help on some others systems.

[cca]

It certainly makes a difference for me. The latest version works very good except for occasional stuttering with ZoomPlayer 3 beta 5.5. It goes away if I pause and resume but it is very annoying. Great work OGO!

[billou2k]

It definitly improves the playback on both tv and monitor!
excellent travail Ogo;-)
I had quite many problems with version 0.99c, so I followed your advices of installing directx9 with 0.99d and that's much much better.
Now with the latest version I could juste notice a few dropped frames from time to time but that's nothing compared to playback without reclock. I still have to test more material but what I tested was ok.
Ill tell you if I discover problems.
thanks a lot!

[Sumster]

OGO,

Just to update... still working perfectly on my system and it has made a HUGE improvement. Have worked through several DIVX and DVD's with no problems!

Ogo, if the latency increases to past MaxLatency when using "audio-slave mode", will Reclock still add/drop AC3 frames out of desperation? There are some areas of certain files where it is very difficult to keep sync... it seems to add/drop a few AC3 frames there consistently. Perhaps if I increase the MaxLatency SPDIF to past 100?

Also, the only tiny issue I have is the following... when using default WaveOut, I can switch from PCM to SPDIF in real-time during a movie with no problem. Using Reclock, once I've started a media in PCM, I need to shut-down Zoomplayer and restart (not just re-load media) for it to recognize SPDIF.


OOKSDVD/ODDBALL --> I don't notice a difference on 98% of my film, but just on certain very difficult panning scenes (even then, they are only microstutters for which you have to be slightly obsessive-compulsive to notice). I could post certain clips that are especially difficult to play smoothly, however Reclock seems to manage them fine!


-Sumster

[Sumster]

Ogo,

Just to clarify... when I switch from PCM to SPDIF on the fly, reclock actually registers it as "AC3 Passthrough" in the properties, however my system/soundcard does not seem to reset itself.

-Sumster

[ogo]

Ogo, if the latency increases to past MaxLatency when using "audio-slave mode", will Reclock still add/drop AC3 frames out of desperation? There are some areas of certain files where it is very difficult to keep sync... it seems to add/drop a few AC3 frames there consistently. Perhaps if I increase the MaxLatency SPDIF to past 100?
Yes, it does ... You can increase latency a little bit but you will get perceivable desync in this case.

Also, the only tiny issue I have is the following... when using default WaveOut, I can switch from PCM to SPDIF in real-time during a movie with no problem. Using Reclock, once I've started a media in PCM, I need to shut-down Zoomplayer and restart (not just re-load media) for it to recognize SPDIF.
Yes, it's called dynamic reconnection in DirectShow and it's not implemented yet on my filter. It's on my TODO list !

OOKSDVD/ODDBALL --> I don't notice a difference on 98% of my film, but just on certain very difficult panning scenes (even then, they are only microstutters for which you have to be slightly obsessive-compulsive to notice). I could post certain clips that are especially difficult to play smoothly, however Reclock seems to manage them fine!
A good way to find a difference is to use a 100hz TV with some motion compensation processor that tries to interporlate frames from 25hz to 100 hz (Philips TV's do that -have a look on "Natural motion" articles on Philips TV sets-). On such TV's if frames are skipped, the motion estimator get confused and results are catastrophic. I can understand that on a monitor or a standard TV it's not always evident to see what reclock does. However to convince yourself you can play a 23,976fps film on a monitor at 75hz, or a PAL TV, and you will see the results on panning scenes.

I have another version ready with corrections for AC3 that correct all the remaining problems. I you want it now just let me know :) If not i prefere to take the time to add a few features like videocard selection, dynamic reconnect, and it will be ready for 1.0 :) And i still have that damn problem with Cmedia soundcards SPDIF

[ogo]

It certainly makes a difference for me. The latest version works very good except for occasional stuttering with ZoomPlayer 3 beta 5.5. It goes away if I pause and resume but it is very annoying. Great work OGO!
What you experience is the problem of "permanent stuterring" i describe in the "known problems" section in my website. The solution for this implies to write another filter in front of the video renderer, but i didn't found the energy to do it yet ...

[gabest]

Originally posted by ogo
Yes, it's called dynamic reconnection in DirectShow and it's not implemented yet on my filter. It's on my TODO list !Couldn't you do it the way you change different PCM formats already? I mean when you see a new media type with spdif and it was PCM previously, just reset everything inside the filter and start to use the digital output.

[ms]

Originally posted by ogo
Frame rate interpolation would be a good idea, but would require another filter just before the video renderer. Quite a lot of work (i think video interpolation require motion estimation, etc ....)


No, motion estimation is one (and the slowest) posibility. Dynapel produses a software called MotionPerfect which does the interpolation with such advanced algorithems. It is realy slow and the results are not very good in some situations. In most (all?) situations it is better to do a simple average calcualtion like (picture1+picture2)/2= picture1.5.

As already said I have written a frame Rate conversation utility for AVI files, and the results are good in my eyes. :)

Greetings
MS