Encoding 4K HDR 4:2:0 10bit BT.2020 (continuation)

[visionplushdr]

I'm still amazed that you trust and believe in HDR core and madVR so much?
It's all math and processing any video has its limits. Different things will start breaking sooner or later. You think that making 10K version out of 1K master is problems free and will always be perfect? It's very opposite. It sounds like quite heavy processing, so things will break and show top on your master. Not only this- your 10K master is then processed further by madVR and further by TV.
Remember- the less processing the better, not opposite.

Stop talking avoiding questions.

Answer : How much post processing chains had the last image.:D

and further by TV.
Remember- the less processing the better, not opposite.

So basically you are claiming that commercial HDR IS BS. Since in HDR10 TV process a LOT and even In Dolby Vision. Exactly the OPPOSITE as my videos where TV doesn't have to process anything. What's better?

Still, i want your answer about the last image.

[visionplushdr]

then most was done from S-Log Base like in the Camp Sample ?

Though i don't really like Sonys HDR Sample it shows very Mediocre Encoding results Noise is really horrible

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/ak/akTCe5Lv1cjC6tqtJvkFYywDmIR.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/mv4DguuVKyFXCUO3Zcj8waM3CbF.png)
http://i1.sendpic.org/t/8q/8qNKgiZPdYWNml9kt0WUEB2iCnA.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/g8SA0QZ2ywQCbKNNWrGwcYo6rfo.png)

That's awful. And you are arguing on my work. Unbelievable. The encoding has nothing to do, the HDR grading is crap.

[kolak]

This was done in very early stages of HDR.
Also- most TV manufactures demos are quite crap, so never use them as reference.
I'e seen this video on Sony BVM HDR monitor.

[kolak]

LOL.

Please tell me how much post processing chains does this image have then?

https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/a679d7d330bcbea378ab29aba0af4e42.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zEj)

Show me reference than maybe I will be able tell you more.

[visionplushdr]

This was done in very early stages of HDR.
Also- most TV manufactures demos are quite crap, so never use them as reference.
I'e seen this video on Sony BVM HDR monitor.

What are early stages of HDR when HDR is extremely old image processing method?

You are still not answering about the last image post processing chain quantity (?)

[kolak]

That's awful. And you are arguing on my work. Unbelievable. The encoding has nothing to do, the HDR grading is crap.

You said all your work is 10x better then studios, so we have to be very hard don you.

[visionplushdr]

Show me reference than maybe I will be able tell you more.

No, tell me how it looks please.

Without "REFERENCE"

LOL.

This is gonna be good.

[kolak]

Doesn't look very good for me, but it's most likely original SDR version of the movie.

[visionplushdr]

You said all your work is 10x better then studios, so we have to be very hard don you.

If you watch what i do in a Dolby Vision TV and watch.. let's say ANY DEMO in HDR my video kills any other. What that exactly says to you?

The Sony HDR camp video looks as bad as any other HDR demo they show in stands.

Why they would show crap? And why mine looks better?

This is wrong.

And tell me how the last image looks please.

[visionplushdr]

Doesn't look very good for me, but it's most likely original SDR version of the movie.

Awesome!!!!

That was the HDR10 Version of the movie.

I will just have a great rest of the day. Or my brain will explode with so much bs on here.

[kolak]

If you watch what i do in a Dolby Vision TV and watch.. let's say ANY DEMO in HDR my video kills any other. What that exactly says to you?

The Sony HDR camp video looks as bad as any other HDR demo they show in stands.

Why they would show crap? And why mine looks better?

This is wrong.

And tell me how the last image looks please.

Because "public" is like you- like saturation, contrast and punchy colors. It's show for public, not colorists.
I have heard opinion of one of the decent colorist about these videos :) Not going to swear here :)

These videos are approved by marketing people, not technical :) We already said what is all this crap about, so don't be so surprised that they look crap. Don't be so also surprised that some studios work is crap, it's very relative. When done properly it does look good, definitely better than your masters. You clearly have 0 inside knowledge of studios reality. If you did you wouldn't be so surprised by all what you see.

[visionplushdr]

Because "public" is like you- like saturation, contrast and punchy colors. It's show for public, not colorists.
I have heard opinion of one of the decent colorist about these videos :) Not going to swear here :)

You just said colorists are noobs.

https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/2f5a9f14f65477e7835a57a8a7ce7fc5.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zEU)

Do you like the colors on there? What about the palette and gamut? Hey does Lucy looks so horrible for the "colorists" ?

I see an outstanding extraordinary horrible image output in there and it's just the commercial HDR10 made by the "colorists".

Can you tell me how can i contact them and tell Kolak the doomer said they are complete noobs?

But you have made the Sony HDR camper video right? Then you probably love the garbage.

[visionplushdr]

Because "public" is like you- like saturation, contrast and punchy colors. It's show for public, not colorists.
I have heard opinion of one of the decent colorist about these videos :) Not going to swear here :)

These videos are approved by marketing people, not technical :) We already said what is all this crap about, so don't be so surprised that they look crap. Don't be so also surprised that some studios work is crap, it's very relative. When done properly it does look good, definitely better than your masters. You clearly have 0 inside knowledge of studios reality. If you did you wouldn't be so surprised by all what you see.

No wrong, my "masters" looks better than the "studios". Also higher nits grade. If i compare with the Camper HDR video my masters are heaven.

Do you like how lucy looks on there? You also said it was SDR. But it was HDR10. How do you feel?

Do you want a whole set of images from the AMAZING PROPER MADE BY EXPERT COLORISTS 1:1 MAPPING HDR10 video?

[kolak]

How they are better if you don't really change colors? It's all relatively the same- well, this is what you claimed minutes ago.
Make your mind.
Go to Raw assets, do your own grade scene by scene (you already wasting time on this on top of studio grade) and then try to prove it's better. Have you ever tried it- starting with some LOG raw assets and making scene looking "good"?

You don't GRADE, you apply some transfer on top of existing grade. You don't relatively change colors, so how your versions can't be better. Stop this nonsense. Your creative part is very limited.

[kolak]

Do you want a whole set of images from the AMAZING PROPER MADE BY EXPERT COLORISTS 1:1 MAPPING HDR10 video?

And how are you going to show this to me without having reference HDR monitor which I can sat at and watch it?

[CruNcher]

Awesome!!!!

That was the HDR10 Version of the movie.

I will just have a great rest of the day. Or my brain will explode with so much bs on here.

To simple you compare the HEVC Encoder PQ performance + the HDR Grading now both should be separately viewed but hard todo that in reality without the master, unless you know specific visual issues coming from wrong Grading post manipulation itself ;)

Though it's interesting that the HDR Master of the Sony Camp Sample should show already these noise levels without it even seeing the (i call it uknown japanese Encoder) :D

LG/Samsung did overall way better with Ateme over the whole time ;)

And i mean old come on

UTC 2016-02-03 07:59:49
UTC 2016-02-03 08:01:32

But yeah LG Colors of Journey HDR if i see some of those SDR conversions i wonder if such a colorist ever saw a tree in real life or if he colors his reality like he does in his Grades ;) ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI91heLv_v4

i mean thats like another reality or maybe some people experience somekind of saturation syndrome ?, somekind of job effect "i have to saturate it i have to full colors no matter what" :D

[visionplushdr]

And how are you going to show this to me without having reference HDR monitor which I can sat at and watch it?

By the same MadVR HDR processing you before said it had OTHER Colors than the HDR10 version plus you said HDR10 was SDR then my old images you didn't even mentioned that.

You are just a lot confused. And i understand due to you not knowing what i do. Sometimes people argues on other people's work but they don't have a clue on the matter.

Is this an SDR too?

https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/46b7387dafe1557767f47bdfba786fc6.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zO2)

The other problem here is you have a "taste" on how things should look like. But HDR ( commercial ) looks like garbage, any. Even the demos used to sell TV's. So ?

[kolak]

Joking? Forget about madVR!

The only way to prove me that colorist done poor job is to have reference HDR TV, so we can all see grade the way how colorist did. Not some MadVR processed version, not even version on home HDR TV, but proper preview, so our eyes see it the way as colourist did. You have to see real thing at 1:1 in order to reliably judge it, not some SDR interpretation of it (specially when technology is still in early stages).
Got it?

[kolak]

To simple you compare the HEVC Encoder PQ performance + the HDR Grading now both should be separately viewed but hard todo that in reality without the master ;)

Though it's interesting that the HDR Master of the Sony Camp Sample should show already these noise levels without it even seeing the Encoder :D

LG/Samsung did overall way better with Ateme over the whole time ;)

And i mean old come on

UTC 2016-02-03 07:59:49
UTC 2016-02-03 08:01:32

I've seen this master probably more than 2 years ago. Original recording is very old. I think around when F65 was released.

[visionplushdr]

Joking? Forget about madVR!

The only way to prove me that colorist done poor job is to have reference HDR TV, so we can all see grade the way how colorist did. Not some MadVR processed version, not even version on home HDR TV, but proper preview, so our eye see it the way as colourist did. You have to see real thing at 1:1 in order to reliably judge it, not some SDR interpretation of it (specially when technology is still in early stages).
Got it?

MadVR doesn't changes colors. MadVR is actually the best player in the entire planet you can use to watch a movie. Are you freaking kidding me even more and more?

Is this SDR?

https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/f2cab30b8f0c29dcf8b406b5702347c3.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zOS)
https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/54d207a06e59148357f7459efb8c33f3.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zOy)

The colors are crap, right?

Go find help please.

You did the HDR sony camper crap, and you even have a face to complain about my work?

[kolak]

The only issue that with high brightness colors are preserved differently, they will look way more saturated (maybe that's why your madVR preview is so desaturated).
You can't simulate this! You need real HDR TV, so your eyes are hit with this higher than SDR nits. You assume that eye sees colors the same regardless of brightness. Well, not long time ago you said flower looks different in the sun :) Make your mind.

Get real, stop judging HDR videos on SDR madVR preview. Is your TV calibrated? You have 100 of variables, so what you see may be veeery different than in reality (what colorist saw on good reference TV).
How can I judge these grabs if my Mac screen crashes blacks, is over saturated etc.
Your really don't get idea of reference preview!

Lost any further interest in this (anyway) meaningless discussion.

[visionplushdr]

The only issue that with high brightness colors are preserved differently, they will look way more saturated (maybe that's why your madVR preview is so desaturated).
You can't simulate this! You need real HDR TV.

Get real, stop judging HDR videos on SDR madVR preview. Is your TV calibrated? You have 100 of variables, so what you see may be veeery different than in reality (what cohorts saw on good reference TV).
How can I judge these grabs if my Mac screen crashes blacks, is over saturated etc.
Your really don't get idea of reference preview!

Lost any further interest in this (anyway) meaningless discussion.

And when i have said you must watch the output as in the images?

You don't need any HDR TV you need a TV in blu-ray input mode to watch a movie with the correct output.

Just like what TV does when pluggin USB movie directly to it in HDR, it turns on the HDR processing there.


Without an "HDR TV" you use MadVR and setup your TV in some personal preset in 4:2:0 Blu-Ray output. And manage to calibrate to your wishes or setup the output you freaking want.

The images are ALWAYS simulated. You are watching a freaking 8-bit window screenshot, how come that could not be simulated?

You have to playback the movie in your TV and then you get the HDR content to it's fully output. Where you setup the gamma you need.

You are weird man.

[kolak]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

Is your TV calibrated? You have 100 of variables, so what you see may be veeery different than in reality (what colorist saw on good reference TV).
How can I judge these grabs if my Mac screen crashes blacks, is over saturated etc.
Your really don't get idea of reference preview!

Lost any further interest in this (anyway) meaningless discussion.

You say you know what's HDR or SDR by judging from an SDR MAC monitor?

You claim your mac screen also crashes blacks?

WTF is this.

You really have no idea in HDR, you are using a Mac as well and claim to want to see HDR content proper "output" WTF.

This got bigger gamma for example.

https://extraimage.net/images/2017/02/12/cac365c05b05f8c3bd20f08762c30939.md.jpg (https://extraimage.net/image/2zOk)

You can't watch HDR on your mac man. Are you sure you are 60 years old?

[kolak]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

No it's not any different. It's better. I don't change any reference made colors or matrix. Just rise PQ. Higher re grade.

And stop talking about i don't regrade anything, if you compare the HDR10 grade the HDR contrast and movie details are CRAP compared to my version. You just have no clue on HDR you claim you can watch it on a screenshot or your mac. WTF man.

[kolak]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

I don't setup anything to my likes. I don't change the calibrated reference from the actual room.

I only rise PQ. Higher re grade.

I don't change anything but rising PQ. Which you don't know how to do. But that doesn't makes it wrong. Since there's nothing wrong. It's the same as studios work on any field with higher PQ. And balanced PQ.

Whatever claim you said on here about "my master" is a criticism to the actual colorists and studio. Since it was ALWAYS the same video.

[Groucho2004]

Wow, this is getting really silly...

[visionplushdr]

Wow, this is getting really silly...

For sure. The guy kolak uses a Mac SDR monitor and wanted to see HDR output from a native ST 2084 PQ HEVC BT. 2020 Video.
Then he said Lucy colorists are complete noobs. But he made the crappy camper HDR video that looks worse than my old DVD's.

I think that covers everything from now on.

[Groucho2004]

The guy kolak uses a Mac SDR monitorHow do you know that?

[visionplushdr]

How do you know that?

He mentioned it a million times.

[Groucho2004]

He mentioned it a million times.Give me just one link so I don't have to go through 150 posts.

[kolak]

... But he made the crappy camper HDR video that looks worse than my old DVD's.


Where I've said this?

I seen it long time ago, so I know it's very old clip. That's all I said. Stop assuming, because this is like not using proper monitoring for your work- very misleading.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

Where I've said this?

I seen it long time ago, so I know it's very old clip. That's all I said. Stop assuming, because this is like not using proper monitoring for your work- very misleading.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

In the old thread it's posted you have "worked" in the HDR Sony Demo.

Now you are lying to yourself?

[kolak]

He mentioned it a million times.

Once in order to hint you that without reference monitoring you can't tell reliably anything about someone else grading job.
Also- any "grading" job which you do is worthless as your TV will be far from giving proper preview.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

Give me just one link so I don't have to go through 150 posts.

For example

The only issue that with high brightness colors are preserved differently, they will look way more saturated (maybe that's why your madVR preview is so desaturated).
You can't simulate this! You need real HDR TV, so your eyes are hit with this higher than SDR nits. You assume that eye sees colors the same regardless of brightness. Well, not long time ago you said flower looks different in the sun :) Make your mind.

Get real, stop judging HDR videos on SDR madVR preview. Is your TV calibrated? You have 100 of variables, so what you see may be veeery different than in reality (what colorist saw on good reference TV).
How can I judge these grabs if my Mac screen crashes blacks, is over saturated etc.
Your really don't get idea of reference preview!

Lost any further interest in this (anyway) meaningless discussion.

[visionplushdr]

Once in order to hint you that without reference monitoring you can't tell reliably anything about someone else grading job.

You can't watch HDR on a Mac monitor. You can't watch native HDR video man. Are you sure you are mentally right.

[kolak]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

[visionplushdr]

You still don't get it.

You don't setup anything as you need/like- there is only one good setting, which is achieved by calibrating reference TV in the actual room.
Anything else is wrong (more or less).
I can 100% guarantee you (not even knowing your settings) that your HDR preview is very different than reference HDR TV- Sony or Dolby (specially knowing your taste). This means your claims about crap clors etc. have simply no ground and that's why this whole debate is abut pointless.

Are you in some bot repeating mode now? You posted this like 4 times lol.

I don't need to setup anything i just play the same movie as studios did in higher nits. What's wrong with you?

[visionplushdr]

Give me just one link so I don't have to go through 150 posts.

The guy also denied now ( because it looks like crap ) he did not work in the HDR sony demo.

Where anybody in doom9 can remember his post about the "collaboration" in that video. He liked to use to lie to himself then? What a world.

[CruNcher]

Colaboration doesn't necessarily means he graded it at all and is responsible for those results ;)
Also he said that sample is way older then we know about it even before it was officially used for Device presentations and it's final leak to the public.
So really one of the very early overall 4K HDR workflow tests most probably of Sony in the release of the F65,depending on the calibration that time the noise could have gone maybe unnoticed due to the PQ setup or any other circumstance, maybe they where right in the process testing their FX1 Reality Denoiser and didn't noticed it at all on playback ;)
Dont forget Sony had their own Internal Idea of HDR and PQ as well which partly survived in their own Chip and processing ;)

[kolak]

I'm not colorists, so 100% I did not grade it. Well, had nothing to do with it, except seeing it way before it got public. I don't think it was ever shot with HDR in mind, but more as F65 test (more Slog-3 test). Very early test which shows a lot of noise. I seen other samples from F65 which has similar problem.

[Blue_MiSfit]

This thread, unfortunately, has devolved into madness just like the last one. Some folks have been struck and I'm closing the thread again. It's COMPLETELY off-topic.

Just a reminder to everyone, read the rules of the site. There are so many rule 4 violations in this thread it's not even funny. Please be nice to each other. Don't troll. This is supposed to be a place for civil discussion and development of video tools and processes.

Feel free to start a new thread to actually discuss the encoding of 4K HEVC content.