How to avoid Windows 10 [Archive] - Page 3

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 02:46

Anyway.....

As part of my efforts to avoid Win10 I thought I should have a look at this Linux thing. It's very early days but I'm happy so far. I installed Linux Mint KDE on the old dual-core and so far nothing's been particularly hard. I've never used Linux before and never installed it before so this is all new to me.

It looks like there's no Linux drivers for my old capture card, so I may need to keep an XP partition for some things, but the software manager has been installing software for me including Wine and PlayOnLinux.... partly because I still have no idea how to install it myself. PlayOnLinux installed foobar2000 for me and it works perfectly. Even the Windows command line encoders still work from the foobar2000 folder. I kind of expected they wouldn't.

With my confidence boosted by the initial foobar2000 success, I'm going to try installing all the other Windows software I normally use. If it all works, great, it'll mean I can get back to using the PC normally a bit faster, and if it doesn't then I'll look for Linux alternatives. I probably will for most of it eventually, but for the moment I'll try installing the Windows software first.

I must say I went into this with no optimism. I'd planned on experimenting with other distros too but I'm happy with Mint so I mightn't bother. I expected this to cause considerable grief but it's been fairly hassle free. I've wasted a hell of a lot of time, but it's "finding where things are and how stuff works" time, and almost no "it won't work as it should" wasted time and probably less time than I wasted trying to make Vista usable after I first installed it. I was planning on installing Win7 on the new PC when I build it, but if Linux keeps refraining from giving me grief on the dual core I mightn't bother and convert to "all Linux". Unless I need a Windows partition on one of the old PCs for a particular reason, old PCs I have even though I live in Australia (reference to my previous post). If anyone's considering Linux as a method of avoiding Win10, I'd recommend trying it. I'm glad I did so far.

PS. One thing I've been happy about..... since Win95, maybe earlier, Windows has treated it's users like they're stupid. Generally the first thing I do after installing Windows is disable the stuff Microsoft assumes I'm too silly to go without.... AutoPlay, user account control.... that sort of thing. So far, Mint has managed to walk a fine line between letting/helping me do stuff, but without making me feel like it thinks I'm clueless. There's been a password prompt now and then, but aside from that it doesn't have any "are you sure you want to do this" prompts to drive me nutty. I can even copy downloaded files from the other PC and open them without warnings about the evils of the internet and viruses, or whatever that ridiculous Microsoft annoyance is (I disabled it long ago, so I can't remember exactly).

Nullack

21st January 2016, 04:13

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 04:31

Or, cudos to you if you want to convert to Linux for desktop use and who knows, if a million more dedicated souls like you worked away on it day and night, maybe one day it will be an awesome desktop experience. Till then, Ill use it at work for what its good at, thanks very much.

I don't need lots of backwards compatibility when it comes to running Windows software these days. I've got a few old programs I still use. One's called "xxxxxx 2000" to reflect the fact the last update was to give it compatibility with Windows 2000. It runs on XP and you can coax it into running on Win7, but these days there's plenty of old, and some unused, PCs in the house, or I can put XP on a partition etc if need be, but mostly the software I use is designed to run on newer Windows.

That's been one advantage of using XP for so long. No backwards compatibility required, and it's not like it was back in the 90's when there was generally only one PC in a house running one flavour of Windows.

It's early days for me so I'll wait to see if I'm in store for lots of horror. Although realistically, the PC could explode and it'd cause me less stress than the four years of using ActiveSync to sync my Windows Mobile device. ActiveSync..... that was the ultimate in software backwards compatibility. It consistently failed to work properly no matter what version of Windows it was installed on.

If this was ten years ago, my switching to Linux would eventually cause the PCs my family members own to switch, and most of the PCs belonging to friends that I maintain. Generally, they'd run what I use. I don't do much of that any more though, so chances are I'll only drag one or two PCs belonging to other people with me and over to Linux.

manolito

21st January 2016, 04:36

Thanks hello_hello for sharing your experiece with Linux Mint...

So far I have only played with Linux from a couple oif Live DVDs (mostly Knoppix), and I always liked it.

What I am mostly interested in is how well Wine or PlayOnLinux support my indispensable Windows software. That would mainly be Video- and Audio Converters, some light programming tools like AutoIt, and some audio editing tools like WaveLab. If I could get these tools to work without too much pain, then I would switch to Linux pretty soon.

So please continue sharing your experience with your Linux installation...

Some folks mentioned that you will need a current Windows to support modern hardware. I believe that this has not so much to do with the operating system itself (i.e. Microsoft), but that the manufacturers of the mainboard or the graphics adapter do no longer support older operating systems.

But there are certain manufacturers of business hardware who still provide excellent support for older operating systems. Santa brought a Lenovo ThinkPad T410 (manufactured in 2011), it has a fairly modern Intel Core i5 CPU. And I was pleasantly surprised that it was a breeze to install XP on it. Lenovo still provides all the necessary XP drivers for it.

I'd like to add another comment about the statement that WinXP does not support SSDs. This is plain wrong, XP does not support TRIM. It is also wrong that an SSD will die a premature death if it is not "trimmed" regularly.

All Intel RAID adapters do not support trim, and if an SSD is retrofitted on an Apple, there is also no TRIM. And you cannot find any reports that SSDs malfunctioned in these scenarios.

If you want to use TRIM under XP, no problem, all SSDs you can buy come with their own maintenance software these days. Plus on current SSDs their garbage collection is quite advanced which reduces the benefits of trimming considerably.

@Nullack:
The simple thing is, you can still use Windows even if you use the most stringent privacy policies including holding federally classified data from various nation states

I already asked you before to back up this statement with some solid facts. So far there are a couple of European countries which started an investigation on Win10 because they suspect that it violates their data protection laws.

Cheers
manolito

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 05:42

It looks like Microsoft is changing their IE support policy too. Or is this old news?
Beginning January 12, 2016, only the most current version of Internet Explorer available for a supported operating system will receive technical support and security updates, as shown in the table below: (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle#gp/Microsoft-Internet-Explorer)

And here's me still running IE7. Well, when I say running, I run it now and then to clear out the crud that accumulates in the temporary internet files folder, despite the fact the only time I open IE is to to clear out that folder.

I did try upgrading to IE8 a couple of times when installing XP but there was always an issue. It'd either get stuck in "first time running" mode or it wouldn't run at all.

manolito

21st January 2016, 05:55

This is true, it's not old news...

It always makes me chuckle if someone uses the words "Microsoft" and "Security" within the same sentence. For a long time IE has been a synonym for "unsecure".

Since IE is so tightly interwoven with the operating system, the Temporary Internet Files folder does slowly get bigger even if you never use IE for Internet browsing. I use CCleaner regularly to purge this folder, no need to actually run IE for this task.

Cheers
manolito

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 06:01

Thanks hello_hello for sharing your experiece with Linux Mint...

So far I have only played with Linux from a couple oif Live DVDs (mostly Knoppix), and I always liked it.

What I am mostly interested in is how well Wine or PlayOnLinux support my indispensable Windows software. That would mainly be Video- and Audio Converters, some light programming tools like AutoIt, and some audio editing tools like WaveLab. If I could get these tools to work without too much pain, then I would switch to Linux pretty soon.

So please continue sharing your experience with your Linux installation...

I think you're safe on the audio converters front, assuming they're command line. foobar2000 uses the standard Windows command line encoders and I just copied them to the foobar2000 folder on the Linux PC and they worked fine. QAAC.exe, ffmpeg.exe. NeroAacEnc.exe FLAC.exe etc.

Avisynth and MeGUI are fairly high on my list for testing. Is there any particular software I can test for you?

I can't use First Cap (http://firstcap.software.informer.com/) on Linux and life is a misery without it (although it only runs on XP anyway), so I'll have to try to set up a Macro program to replace it. I currently use AutoHotKey but maybe there's a native Linux program? I've never used AutoIt.

It's a bit of a slow process as I'm just playing around when I have some time or nothing important to do.
Rather than sidetrack this thread, here's my "installing Linux" thread at VideoHelp. I'll keep updating it and posters there have contributed with advice.

My (almost) 1st time installing Linux (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376468-My-%28almost%29-1st-time-installing-Linux)

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 06:13

But there are certain manufacturers of business hardware who still provide excellent support for older operating systems. Santa brought a Lenovo ThinkPad T410 (manufactured in 2011), it has a fairly modern Intel Core i5 CPU. And I was pleasantly surprised that it was a breeze to install XP on it. Lenovo still provides all the necessary XP drivers for it.

I think it's mostly a chipset driver issue at the moment. I'm fairly sure there's no XP drivers for the current Intel chipsets, and possibly the previous generation, so it might depend on the chipset inside etc.
Nvidia were still supporting XP until somewhat recently, so a 2011 laptop should be fine for Nvidia XP drivers if it needs them.

I don't know much about what other chipset and hardware manufacturers are doing as far as XP support goes. I haven't been paying attention.

Nullack

21st January 2016, 06:14

Ive got allot of time into linux desktops for various reasons. I said I dont like it and I dont, but for various reasons I've had to deal with it over the years.

All the projects that are native to *Nix or are cross paltform work well. So thats ffmpeg, mpv etcetc. Compiling it yourself seemed worth it to me even for x64 builds - specifying your own specific compile time options makes a difference in things like ffmpeg I found.

Video acceleration off GPUs was a drama but has steadily got better - I think its fair to say it isnt as robust as DXVA2 but the various offerings such as vaapi and vdpau are more useful than in the years past

Not having a strong decryption capability for recent masters in bluray is a hassle, there is no real substitute for AnyDVD HD on Linux

Ofourse, no bluray menu support either. Well VLC in an alpha state, but its an alpha :cool:

Ive had allot of problems with Linux based NVE's including the same NVE as what Tarintino famously used on occasion for his own films

KDE / plasma seems to be unreliable (atleast on the gpu hardware Ive used) but I found Gnome 3.x to be improving in reliability. For awhile both of them were awful for reliability.

Generally I found production released kernels to be reliable and terminal level stuff to go fine. The main things were making sure to tuse the right kernel version, get the partitioning solid for your drive mountings and to learn basic shell commands/scripting. Linux really shines under simple headless stuff.

Nullack

21st January 2016, 06:24

It always makes me chuckle if someone uses the words "Microsoft" and "Security" within the same sentence.

I think this was true in the 1990s and so on. Since, billions have been poured into Microsoft's secure development lifecycle and in fact the entire company was told to stop developing, and use the new methodology following training. To say Microsoft didnt turn it around, really is to ignore reality.

For example, 75 CVEs last year in 2015 for the Linux kernel. Thats allot guys. THen remember, you need a *distirbution* not just a kernel. And a *desktop distribution* needs far more code in it than just a simple server. When you add up all the difference packages in a distribution, linux actualy has worse records than either apple or MS. That isnt to say its not trustable. It is. And Linux is good at patching quickly, though I am aware of a recent case of a vulnerability thats been around for three years....That aint good irrespective of what your favourite OS is fellas :D

I think if your hard core about security, you dont run Linux, you run BSD and lock it down with very tough admin policies.

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 06:29

Not having a strong decryption capability for recent masters in bluray is a hassle, there is no real substitute for AnyDVD HD on Linux

Will it run in Wine?
I'd forgotten about AnyDVD. Oh well..... I think it was inevitable I was at least going to dual boot XP or Win7 on one of the PCs for the "only works on Windows and I can't live without it" software.
I'll try installing AnyDVD though. You never know.

manolito

21st January 2016, 07:01

I think this was true in the 1990s and so on. Since, billions have been poured into Microsoft's secure development lifecycle and in fact the entire company was told to stop developing, and use the new methodology following training. To say Microsoft didnt turn it around, really is to ignore reality.

Yeah, it can be hard to shake off a reputation you once earned...

But I do remember that the latest advisory not to use IE from the German BSI (Federal institution for IT safety) is less than a year old...

Cheers
manolito

smok3

21st January 2016, 07:14

@hello_hello: About avisynth, I started something here
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172951
https://github.com/brontosaurusrex/postbang/blob/master/misc/avisynthOnLinux.md
(apparently I was using wrong QTGMC plugins, but the rest should hold water).

filler56789

21st January 2016, 07:37

..........

I think if your hard core about security, you dont run Linux, you run BSD and lock it down with very tough admin policies.

This.

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 08:42

I'm not sure "security" and Microsoft spying on everything you do are the same thing. It'd be possible to have a "secure" computer that still talks to Microsoft.

I'm not stressed about "security". I don't run any "security" software on XP. I'm not crazy about the Microsoft spying aspect of Win10, but Microsoft forcing updates on my PC without even telling me what they're for...... there's the line in the sand for me. Am I the only one who's been using a PC long enough for several Microsoft updates/upgrades to have caused problems? I doubt it, and when it comes to "trustworthy computing" Microsoft have proved with the tactics they're using to force Wind10 upgrades they can't be trusted. And they reinforced that by re-enabling the Windows "spying" users had disabled through Windows Updates. Even Android asks permission to update and I'm free to say no, yet people are giving the manufacture of their desktop OS permission to do whatever they like to their PC.

Microsoft has never, ever cared about what their customers want. They only care about what's good for Microsoft unless they're forced to do otherwise, such as fix Vista, or make Win8 usable. Win10 proves that hasn't changed and given everyone's busy installing the last ever version of Windows, what little leverage the customer had has all but disappeared. How are you going to choose not to use the next Vista when Microsoft will install it without asking your permission?

pandy

21st January 2016, 10:25

The slowest part about swapping is the HDD access, not the OS.

When OS behave like memory hog then i blame OS that swapping is required - this is main problem - abusing resources and as outcome swapping is required when on previous OS version everything was fine.

Just as example: The fundamental support of modern multi-core CPU architectures and SIMD instructions (I doubt Win2K would still run without problems on CPU generations of the last year, not to mention outperform Vista+ in every place).

This is kind of joke or what? NT support SMP from NT4.0 time, new instructions support doesn't require 3 times more RAM to be used (and sorry for being non developer) i assume it is also not a problem to add this to kernel...
Decision to make it not work is marketing not technical...

Yes, true, XP already supported multi-core CPUs too; but you had to have one of those present during the installation already so the matching kernel would be installed (I remember how I installed XP in VirtualBox on an uni-core system, and it still used only one core after I changed the number of emulated CPUs from 1 to 2 or 4).

And? How frequently you swapping CPU's from single core to multiple core?

And there is also a collection of hardware I would not dare to use under such obsolete systems. Using SSDs under XP was already a kind of risk.

So... it is not possible to update driver responsible for HW?
Amazing... drivers and kernel can't be updated, it must be completely new, with RAM requirements 3 times bigger than before only to run 5% faster and because of caching...
Sounds like good marketing strategy...
Btw it was possible to use USB even on NT4 (commercially available USB stack so please don't tell me that it was not marketing decision to make XP and Vista and 7 and 8 and 8. and 10).

I can tell you what happen in MS as i observe same behaviour in company i working for.
there is a bunch of new managers with something like so called 'soft skills' - generally they are morons capable to read but not capable to understand, sometimes they are after some MBA courses (so called university) - they believe in this kind statistic: 'If one women is able to deliver baby in 9 months then 9 women's should be capable to deliver baby in 1 month', so they have great idea - we need to hire more developers - usually from some country like India (no offence guys, You are great developers but without practical skills to solve practical problems in nice and efficient way).
At some point a new marketing strategy is born - this is called renting software for monthly/annually subscription and force people to move to this model - they think that blackmailing people and extorting such money is a good idea and soon it will be a wide stream of money flowing to company... instead improving product they prefer to start everything from new (of course they pretend this is new)... i can continue this story but...

This is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonaldization

Instead fixing product, convince customer to buy new one - if customer doesn't want to buy a new - force him to do it.

Soon we will start missing old style managers like Gates or even Balmer...

LigH

21st January 2016, 10:57

pandy: More aggressive arguing is not equal to more correct arguments.

I will agree in one point: There is a relation between the availability of more RAM and the requirement of more RAM. New software will push new hardware will facilitate new software... and up the spiral. It is certainly more prominent for games (why else do we need 3+ GB video cards?) than for operating systems, but the amount of graphical effects and use of 3D accelerator features already for desktop window managers is certainly higher in Vista+ than in NT/2K, many users prefer a pretty surface, which needs more RAM and 3D API support. I know a few applications which rely on having the Aero design enabled, they may even crash when disabling designs. And I don't understand the reason. They are not even very graphically intense (e.g. a ChessBase GUI). Hardware manufacturers won't mind the turnover support by software updates. :rolleyes:

Regarding drivers: They will only help up to a specific level. They may offer access to devices; but the logic how to use them optimally may be beyond the driver level (e.g. to exempt SSDs from defragmenting, and to support trimming as a feature specific to this technology); optimal support for modern hardware (not just minimal access) may require support from both sides of a programming interface; and one side is the OS kernel.

Ghitulescu

21st January 2016, 11:55

What I find ironic is all the folk who have been fished into the click bait crazy areas of the internet which amongst UFO and secret alien government conspiricies clicking on the click bait fills these users with a bunch of FUD surrouding claims Windows 10 secretly spies on all your files...
I bought a factory new computer with W10.
I connected to the internet, and I had in a few minutes 160 MB of data sent over the network.

I might understand that it was send a query to new drivers and updates, and therefore the download to be huge, but 160 MB of sent data?
Then they go and complain about how Windows is all so evil and its time for a better OS in linux....
Yes, this is true. Whenever a new version of Windows appear, the heavily criticised existing version becomes suddenly good and the new one the incarnation of all evils.

...lots of bla bla...

The point of all this is first the stability of a system then the usability. If the system is unstable, its usability also suffers.

I know that a stable computer running windows is greatly unknown to most people - but for 20 years I have not one but several. The trick is simple - install the OS in a customizable way, place only the software that is needed to work on this computer or the purpose of the computer, do not connect it to the net, and be happy.

Installing codec packs over codec packs, various trialware, downloaded things, illegal software, all kind of games, legal or not, is the recipe for a broken system.

While it is possible to reduce the spy activities to a minimum, the knowledge of this varies sometimes with builds (not only with versions) and it is over the capacities of the normal citizen.

Linux is an alternative to windows. Meanwhile there a millions of versions, several desktop managers, various incompatible repositories, and of course an unknown philosophy. Unknown to the windows user.

I configured computers for linuxes and linuxes for computers since modprobe was mandatory for installing a graphic card. Now this once the biggest hurdle was made a kids' play, everyone should install linux, for most distros and minidistros come with many preinstalled applications. I understand that even UEFI is no longer a problem these days.

I never had any issue in the last 10 years since I use linux on my internet computer. It is since 2005 in the same configuration (the support ended 2008) and works as in the first day. Try this on any windows system when the booting NTFS HDD has less than 10-15% free space :)

What's different about Australia?
Well, it's populated with ... erh ... you :) .

PS. One thing I've been happy about..... since Win95, maybe earlier, Windows has treated it's users like they're stupid. Generally the first thing I do after installing Windows is disable the stuff Microsoft assumes I'm too silly to go without.... AutoPlay, user account control.... that sort of thing. So far, Mint has managed to walk a fine line between letting/helping me do stuff, but without making me feel like it thinks I'm clueless. There's been a password prompt now and then, but aside from that it doesn't have any "are you sure you want to do this" prompts to drive me nutty. I can even copy downloaded files from the other PC and open them without warnings about the evils of the internet and viruses, or whatever that ridiculous Microsoft annoyance is (I disabled it long ago, so I can't remember exactly).
The point is two-fold.
Users are indeed stupid. And become more and more more stupid, each day.
And two - considering that some actions are irreversible, a sort of check is used to prevent the "impossible". Even systems designed by smarter people for smarter people have such methods designed to prevent the accidents - "Are you sure you want to launch a nuclear attack against Melbourne?" Crikey mate, it should have been Moscow .... damn spell corrector :) Where's Undo? :) :) "Bad command or file name" :)
I'm not sure "security" and Microsoft spying on everything you do are the same thing. It'd be possible to have a "secure" computer that still talks to Microsoft.
It depends on the definition of "secure".
I'm not stressed about "security". I don't run any "security" software on XP. I'm not crazy about the Microsoft spying aspect of Win10, but Microsoft forcing updates on my PC without even telling me what they're for...... there's the line in the sand for me.
So it's a secure computer or not a secure computer?
Am I the only one who's been using a PC long enough for several Microsoft updates/upgrades to have caused problems? I doubt it, and when it comes to "trustworthy computing" Microsoft have proved with the tactics they're using to force Wind10 upgrades they can't be trusted. And they reinforced that by re-enabling the Windows "spying" users had disabled through Windows Updates. Even Android asks permission to update and I'm free to say no, yet people are giving the manufacture of their desktop OS permission to do whatever they like to their PC.
Probably it's the time, late of course, to read the EULA.
By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.
So if you do not want any automatic updates, you're breaching this agreement and you must de-install windows.

Atak_Snajpera

21st January 2016, 12:29

Forget about Win10 and this stupid locked dx12. Vulkan api 1.0 is around corner!!! DX12 will die soon. Vulkan has full support from amd,nvidia,intel...

Even m$ is not promoting their api lately.

movmasty

21st January 2016, 13:05

And here's me still running IE7. Well, when I say running, I run it now and then to clear out the crud that accumulates in the temporary internet files folder, despite the fact the only time I open IE is to to clear out that folder.

I did try upgrading to IE8 a couple of times when installing XP but there was always an issue. It'd either get stuck in "first time running" mode or it wouldn't run at all.
I succeeded to install ie8 with sp3,
but also the 8 gives much unsupported messages on the net,
whats the point to use ie? Firefox does well on XP.

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 13:20

The point of all this is first the stability of a system then the usability. If the system is unstable, its usability also suffers.

So what I said about software no longer working..... you're going to ignore that and move on to discussing system stability?

Just to clarify..... when you described the discussion as a strange hysteria because most people think XP won't work once support ends, even though it's long ended and many of us still use it, you were actually referring to a system stability hysteria?

I know that a stable computer running windows is greatly unknown to most people - but for 20 years I have not one but several. The trick is simple - install the OS in a customizable way, place only the software that is needed to work on this computer or the purpose of the computer, do not connect it to the net, and be happy.

Meanwhile, in the real world, people install and uninstall software regularly, they connect to the net, and a stable computer running Windows is something with which most of us are quite familiar, either under the name of "fresh install", or "restored image".

Installing codec packs over codec packs, various trialware, downloaded things, illegal software, all kind of games, legal or not, is the recipe for a broken system.

Five stars for tangent creation, but this is doom9. Installing codec packs? Something about choirs and preaching comes to mind.

The point is two-fold.
Users are indeed stupid. And become more and more more stupid, each day.

You last post doesn't contradict that.

And two - considering that some actions are irreversible, a sort of check is used to prevent the "impossible". Even systems designed by smarter people for smarter people have such methods designed to prevent the accidents - "Are you sure you want to launch a nuclear attack against Melbourne?" Crikey mate, it should have been Moscow .... damn spell corrector Where's Undo? "Bad command or file name"

Until of course, the messages become so commonplace/annoying people get into the habit of clicking through them without thinking. I'm sure that's how the majority of adware and spyware ends up on PCs.
I'm certainly smart enough to know if I want to copy a bunch of files to an external USB hard drive without needing a confirmation prompt to make sure I didn't copy and paste them accidentally.

It depends on the definition of "secure".

So it's a secure computer or not a secure computer?

It depends on your definition of "secure" doesn't it? :)
Comedy gold.

Probably it's the time, late of course, to read the EULA.

So if you do not want any automatic updates, you're breaching this agreement and you must de-install windows.

In which alternative reality did you interpret my comment about forced updates as a need to read the EULA?
Late of course? Did I say something that implied I've installed Win10? Maybe my XP hysteria confused the issue, because I'd be offended if I thought there was a universe in which that made sense.
So just to clarify..... it's to do with agreeing to the EULA, or not agreeing to it? If so, that's quite a lucky co-incidence.... because it's also the topic of the thread..... "How to avoid Windows 10".

Ghitulescu

21st January 2016, 16:24

You intentionally miss all my points and your tactic is to split word by word and take them out of their context.

It doesn't matter.

because it's also the topic of the thread..... "How to avoid Windows 10".

The simplest way of not upgrading to w10, because it cannot be forced upon, is not to allow the computer have a source of w10, like CDs/DVDs and/or internet nearby. Even then, the windows pre-10 asks one about one's agreement on this installation. Annoying, but possible.

It is my understanding that after the install of w10 the updates and upgrades and patches and KBs will be installed without any user consent.

PS: I had to install w10, so I answered yes, because my wife updated by accident the original w8 to 8.1 and I lost every convenience I got from XP. She also regretted this but there was no possibility to revert it back to w8. So far and since we do not use the computer otherwise than browsing the net, after disabling the 10 worst security issues, w10 is not that bad.

Microsoft may have my shopping habits :)

Groucho2004

21st January 2016, 16:33

The simplest way of not upgrading to w10, because it cannot be forced upon, is not to allow the computer have a source of w10, like CDs/DVDs and/or internet nearby.What would be a safe distance from CDs/DVDs and/or internet? ;)

pandy

21st January 2016, 17:15

pandy: More aggressive arguing is not equal to more correct arguments.

Sorry, my apologies - it was not my intention to sound aggressive but rather express annoyance triggered by product low quality.

I will agree in one point: There is a relation between the availability of more RAM and the requirement of more RAM. New software will push new hardware will facilitate new software... and up the spiral. It is certainly more prominent for games (why else do we need 3+ GB video cards?) than for operating systems, but the amount of graphical effects and use of 3D accelerator features already for desktop window managers is certainly higher in Vista+ than in NT/2K, many users prefer a pretty surface, which needs more RAM and 3D API support. I know a few applications which rely on having the Aero design enabled, they may even crash when disabling designs. And I don't understand the reason. They are not even very graphically intense (e.g. a ChessBase GUI). Hardware manufacturers won't mind the turnover support by software updates. :rolleyes:

Large amount high resolution textures require large RAM - this is outcome of typical game developers approach - novelty of a game is build around textures and object complexity.
If you add to this lack of pursuing for new techniques (such as procedural textures) then you end in the middle of few or more GB's.

Luckily for us something need to change with 4k and higher resolutions and with VR reborn - it is quite clear that such madness can't be continued as we can't implement required computational power in silicone due physics limitation.

Regarding drivers: They will only help up to a specific level. They may offer access to devices; but the logic how to use them optimally may be beyond the driver level (e.g. to exempt SSDs from defragmenting, and to support trimming as a feature specific to this technology); optimal support for modern hardware (not just minimal access) may require support from both sides of a programming interface; and one side is the OS kernel.

All this is related to the file system driver and HW driver... and i believe that all this functionality in total will not occupy more than few MB as such drivers are low size due required performance and stability.
AFAIK NTFS is still poor in terms of file fragmentation (or rather is poor in avoiding file fragmentation)...
New GUI in Windows is also simplified (such a marketing trick to create impression that minimalistic flat windows are fancy when simply it is only one way to deal with mobile devices power limitations and it was extended beyond mobile devices to desktop one).
From my perspective there is no modern OS with elegance of CDE or NextStep...

Ghitulescu

21st January 2016, 18:17

... is not to allow the computer have a source of w10, like CDs/DVDs and/or internet nearby.

What would be a safe distance from CDs/DVDs and/or internet? ;)

I meant far enough not to be at the immediate reach of the hand :) it depends on how strong one is against tentations :) :)

At least within EU a software company (including M$) is not allowed to sell products that cease to function after a certain time. So M$ could not force people to install a new version or otherwise XP, Se7en or w8 will not work anymore until the upgrade to w10 is accomplished. But if one agreed upon the EULA, he waives this right. And some many more.

Groucho2004

21st January 2016, 18:32

At least within EU a software company (including M$) is not allowed to sell products that cease to function after a certain time.
Indeed, this is not going to fly within the EU and rightfully so. I already mentioned it, MS can go f*ck themselves with an oversized baseball bat. I use my OS for which I paid as long as I want to.

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 18:44

You intentionally miss all my points and your tactic is to split word by word and take them out of their context.

Rubbish. Claiming "out of context" is one of your standard go-to defences right after your argument falls over completely.
I quoted almost everything you wrote in reply to me, in order, except for the part about your Linux experience.
I understand your points. A succession of attempts to justify your claim of hysteria and everyone suffering from hypochondria.

The simplest way of not upgrading to w10, because it cannot be forced upon, is not to allow the computer have a source of w10, like CDs/DVDs and/or internet nearby. Even then, the windows pre-10 asks one about one's agreement on this installation. Annoying, but possible.

Microsoft are making it harder to say no by giving the impression "no" is not an option.
Microsoft takes the gloves off, pushes Windows 10 upgrades even harder (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/219541-microsoft-takes-the-gloves-off-on-pushing-windows-10-upgrades)
If you believe what you're saying it's somewhat comical. The simplest way to ensure you don't end up with Win10 is to not use your PC as you normally would. ie connected to the internet. What's your definition of "simple"?

It is my understanding that after the install of w10 the updates and upgrades and patches and KBs will be installed without any user consent.

For the Home version, but once everyone's running the last version of Windows, Microsoft can change the rules whenever and however they want. I suppose you could continue not connecting your PC to the internet as I heard that's a simple option....

PS: I had to install w10, so I answered yes, because my wife updated by accident the original w8 to 8.1 and I lost every convenience I got from XP. She also regretted this but there was no possibility to revert it back to w8. So far and since we do not use the computer otherwise than browsing the net, after disabling the 10 worst security issues, w10 is not that bad.

I've used Win10 for all of 15 minutes on my other half's laptop, so I have no real opinion as to what it's like to use, but my PCs do more than just browse the internet, so the idea of Microsoft being able to change my OS without my knowledge or consent horrifies me. Not only because I don't trust them to get it right, and I'm confident any change they make to my PC would be for Microsoft's benefit and not mine, but because I think I should have the right to choose.

I'm surprised they're getting away with what they're doing. They talk about development costs and maintaining multiple versions of Windows etc, but seriously, do they expect people to feel sorry for them? It must be hard maintaining a billion dollar monopoly when the only real competition is older versions of your own software. All Microsoft is trying to do is eliminate that competition too. For my benefit, no doubt.

foxyshadis

21st January 2016, 20:04

It looks like there's no Linux drivers for my old capture card, so I may need to keep an XP partition for some things

Don't bother with a partition unless you want to play DX9 games. Virtualbox can forward all of the incompatible devices to a VM, where they can be managed by an XP (or 7) install instead. Virtualbox in general is a lifesaver for me, I went from 3 boxes to one laptop at home and similar at work, although I use Win primary and Linux second.

I bought a factory new computer with W10.
I connected to the internet, and I had in a few minutes 160 MB of data sent over the network.

How much of that was Windows, and how much of it was OEM crapware? OEM software spammed the network just as much on XP, I made the same measurements when we got a batch of new Dells back in 2005 (although it was less then, since the internet was much slower).

hello_hello

21st January 2016, 20:18

Don't bother with a partition unless you want to play DX9 games. Virtualbox can forward all of the incompatible devices to a VM, where they can be managed by an XP (or 7) install instead. Virtualbox in general is a lifesaver for me, I went from 3 boxes to one laptop at home and similar at work, although I use Win primary and Linux second.

Awesome! I'll add Virtualbox to the top of my "check it out" list.
Thanks.

As a general rule, is it better to run Windows software in Wine rather than a virtual OS, assuming it runs in Wine?

manolito

22nd January 2016, 07:19

LigH

22nd January 2016, 09:25

Yes, you can convert a partition to a "virtual hard disk" file (with MS tools: disk2vhd). Other Virtual Machine suites have their own converters.

Wine is just a compatibility layer, providing Windows system functions under a different OS. It is not a complete Windows kernel. Not all applications for Windows will find Wine sufficient, some might call rather undocumented functions or try lower level access, they may fail.

hello_hello

22nd January 2016, 13:22

I do not have much experience with VMs, but from what I've been reading it should even be possible to convert an existing XP or Win7 installation into a VM which you then can just "play" under a VM host.

This sounds very tempting to me because I usually spend a lot of time to optimize and tweak my Windows installations. Then the question is if VirtualBox or VMWare player would be the better option to play such a VM. The VM files themselves should be compatible.

As a side note, have you tried NLite? It makes it pretty easy to "pre-tweak" and you can create a fully unattended installation CD that'll install Windows with your tweaks already applied. You don't have to use it to remove Windows components, but it can, and you can add service packs, drivers, patches, and upgrade files for IE or WMP. I've only used it for XP installations myself, but I haven't used an original XP CD in years.

I just finished setting up VirtualBox. Installing it on Linux Mint (the software manager will find and install it for you) and then installing XP in VirtualBox took about 45 minutes all up. I haven't installed any software on XP yet but it appears XP's Device Manager can see my old TV tuner/capture card, so hopefully I'll be able to use it that way. I haven't checked everything, but the capture card is the only unknown device in XP's Device Manager and it has working USB and audio.

In case you didn't see the link I posted earlier I'm still chronicling my Linux experience here (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376468-My-%28almost%29-1st-time-installing-Linux). So far, the advice has been relatively helpful and hopefully it'll be a source of info for someone else.

I'm still optimistic about a total switch to Linux (XP in VirtualBox aside), even if it'll be a fairly gradual process in respect to testing software etc. I've barely started, but I think in my head I'm already past the point of no return, as long as I don't hit any major road bumps along the way.

raffriff42

23rd January 2016, 20:09

StainlessS

23rd January 2016, 23:59

Me loves dis thread.
Hello, hello-hello,

Me just done download !inux Mint 17.3,
You gave me incentive to retry, mucho grassy ass.
Life without Windows does no longer seem such an impossible dream.

Mobile:

Nullack

24th January 2016, 03:02

Mint has an old kernel. Once you get the hang of it, try another more current debian based distro I say. Theyre mostly the same in debian based circles - just usually different desktop environments e.g. Cinnamon, Unity, KDE, gnome 3 etcetc. At a wider level beyond debian the package based (not source like gentoo) distros are really only different in terms of which package manager, e.g. pacman, apt, rpm, yast and which desktop environment. But I still stand by my statement that desktop linux isnt very good its immature and lacking many features. In time maybe it will be awesome.

Ghitulescu

24th January 2016, 11:10

Linux is nice for things any Android tablet is good.

However, most software an enterprise and/or freelancer uses are not working under linux, but only in windows. For some of them WINE may be a solution. For others virtual machines and emulators. However, my current knowledge nobody managed to run paid software under linux.

At least Macs are provided with many useful paid software for professional music, book and movie authoring and composing.

I doubt people went to linux to avoid w10 and sharing the main interests of this forum, will stay longer there. Surely, downloading and converting between MP4, MKV, AVI and Divx and playing them back onto linux is possible. Also people that cannot rip a DVD because they have not the latest version of AnyDVD will have no chance under linux.

Serious projects are however untenable.

PS: an Adonai told me earlier that people need new versions, new software, new drivers, new everything.
Indeed, there are people always wanting something new. But needing? Only if what they have does not work.
And a new major version of windows not only requested new hardware but also dropped the support for the older ones. Should I throw my Avid rig I paid a few grands because I want to upgrade to w10 for free? And buy another rig, equally expensive? And now when Scenarist was discontinued, should I risk to damage my old functional computer for upgrades? Even connecting it to the internet?

feisty2

24th January 2016, 12:47

However, most software an enterprise and/or freelancer uses are not working under Linux

don't agree with the "enterprise" statement, there are enterprise level very high end programs that only run under Linux
like this one: https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/flame-products/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/flame-sysreqs.html

ts1

24th January 2016, 13:34

For you newbie Mint users https://mintguide.org
Also if you use open source gpu drivers mesa-git has native Direct3D 9 support, or install it for ubuntu based systems from this (https://launchpad.net/~oibaf/+archive/ubuntu/graphics-drivers) ppa.

Ghitulescu

24th January 2016, 14:56

don't agree with the "enterprise" statement, there are enterprise level very high end programs that only run under Linux
like this one: https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/flame-products/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/flame-sysreqs.html
We do, too, but we develop the software in-house.
I also know some town halls that use linux and openoffice.
But these are only counter-examples.
I don't know any law, except those of physics, that oes not have a counter-example.

StainlessS

24th January 2016, 15:13

Just installed Mint 17.3 (EDIT: Cinnamon Desktop Edition), currently posting via Firefox from within Mint.
Quite a painless process really, auto connected via my 300Mbps TP-Link Wifi to my 4G Mifi device.
Looking forward to a little exploration :)

WorBry

24th January 2016, 18:06

Hey StainlessS, welcome to the "L side".

I've been running Mint KDE (now) 17.3 and Kubuntu 15.10 (both AMD 64 versions) side by side for about 2 months now, with Win7 (64) on a separate SSD. No problems at all.

I upgraded to Win 10 for just 5 days before (still) unresolved NAS (WD MyBookLive) access issues forced me to roll-back. Status on that, if anyone is in the same boat:

https://community.wd.com/t/windows-10-cannot-access-my-book-live-with-file-browser/141176

Despite going on to restore a full disc backup that I made of Win7 before the upgrade (i.e. before installing the KB3035583 that harbors the Win10 upgrade widget), I started to get this pop-up nag every time I signed into MSN Outlook, whether on IE11 or Firefox:

http://i.imgur.com/HKS4tjf.png

Sure, the pop-up can be X clicked away, but the fact this nag only appears on this PC and after I rolled back to Win7 bugs me.

I'm now doing all my web-browsing, emailing and Skyping from within Linux, whilst watching how things develop with Win10 over the coming months.

Must say I don't like their increasingly FUD strategy. Check this and the embedded radio interview with Microsoft Marketing Chief Chris Capossela (27-32 mins into the interview).

http://betanews.com/2015/12/29/microsoft-explains-why-its-pushing-windows-10-so-aggressively-spoiler-its-to-keep-you-safe/

Yes, he actually says that "Use Windows 7 at your peril " :eek:

That's not scaremongering, that's actually a threat. Empty maybe, but who knows.

StainlessS

24th January 2016, 18:22

Sure, the pop-up can be X clicked away, but the fact this nag only appears on this PC and after I rolled back to Win7 bugs me.

Hardly a good fix, but you could easily knock up an AutoIt script to wake up every second or so and if the nag window exists, automatically click the little 'x' (there is also I think a function key which could be sent instead to activate the 'x') button to close the window.

I'm gonna take it easy with Mint, not gonna get too into it all at once.

EDIT: You might also check Task Manager to see if some weird executable appears when nag is displayed, and try temp delete of file (making backup), maybe worth a try.

EDIT: Could use this as basic template, just need to use the AutoIt window tool (dont recall its name) to find out the window ID
(or just locate using some text in title), if Window exists then just send the relevant Function key, I'll look up the key and assist in
creating script if you are interested. :- http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173010

WorBry

24th January 2016, 18:42

Thanks for the offer, but I think I'd prefer not to meddle and just take the "passive avoidance" approach for now, keeping a foot in both camps. Plus I find browsing in Mint/Kubuntu a bit snappier than Win7, and I'm in there a fair bit at the moment tinkering with KDenLive and the likes. So it's not a big deal really.

But what a ridiculous state of affairs that one has to resort to such measures to try and keep Microsoft out, whether already in Win10 or "kicking the can down the street", as Capossela puts it, by staying with Win7. What sort of company rubbishes one of it's most successful and abiding products. Desperate tactics. Sure Microsoft have been guilty of "FUD devices" before, but this puts it on a whole new level. Says a lot about the "new corporate culture" under Satya Nadella that Chris Caposella enthuses about, rather unconvincingly, in that radio interview.

And what's the end of it? Will we see a point where all consumer level computing hardware is either Microsoft or Apple dedicated, quite probably in the form of cloud-served workstations, with no scope left for the Linux desktop ? I hope not, but I wouldn't want to put all my eggs in the linux basket either.

Sure some might say "Accept the technology for what it will do for you, and be aware of the risks", but when it's not exactly clear what the real risks are and what are marketing fabrication, how can you really make an informed choice.

As concluded in another article I read recently:

"But the time for transparency is running out. By 2018 Microsoft aims to have one billion devices running Windows 10 and with that comes truly global reach and insight. The world deserves to know exactly what it is signing up for…"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2016/01/06/windows-10-spying-secrets-revealed/#5c6944cf2fd5

(If the link opens to the Forbes Welcome page, click the Continue to Site countdown button at the top right to open the article)

This is a product after-all, not a government program......or is it ? (as James Burke, quirky presenter of Tomorrows World used to say) - Twilight Zone theme plays in the background.

If I sound like a Windows-hater, I'm actually not. Had that pesky pop-up not appeared, and bothered me into probing further, I probably would have been content to just wait until a proper fix comes up for that NAS access problem (encountered by many) and have another go at the upgrade. But now that I have taken a more than usual interest in the roll-out of Win10, I just don't like the way they going about it, and will probably hold out until it becomes clear that I have no choice. Sad, huh ?

Nullack

25th January 2016, 04:29

Guys, I realise many of you considering linux for the first time are doing so out of wanting to search for greener pastures, and thats cool, but honestly many of these complaints for doing so, the reality is Linux is worse at it than Windows. Specifically complaints about backwards compatibility and MS stopping support for new chipsets and other aspects of new hardware from windows 7 moving forward. You will learn as you progress your Linux knowledge that Linux is far worse than Microsoft about backwards compatibility. In fact, very rarely is any device driver or key new feature from the latest kernel release ever backported into older distributions. And then a specific distribution does do this, like with Ubuntu backports, its officially unsupported and usually pretty unstable. This is why Mint as a distro tends to be a problem - because it uses an old kernel and hence theres lot of non supported stuff with it.

With MS now saying for new hardware like the coming Kaby Lake, for the chipset support MS is only supporting Windows 10, that's actually what Linux has done for more than a decade fellas.

When it comes to privacy, I actually found it far easier to turn off OS stuff in Windows 10 than what Apple does with MacOS, and Im still researching how I tell Google to respect my privacy and I'm reading I may find I cant ever get to that point with Google stuff (im still researching the truth of those claims). Please dont suggest that Linux distro's like Ubuntu are privacy OK out of the box either - some simple reading on amazon and internet based searches in Ubuntu will show privacy problems by default there too.

smok3

25th January 2016, 09:23

@Nullack: you mean newer hardware is supported badly?

(My 10 year old wacom tablet and cheap scanner are working out of the box, none will work by default with win7)

Nobody suggested that Ubuntu is something that one should run.

Nullack

25th January 2016, 09:26

I mean that backports arent done generally in Linux, and if they are done, in say the case of the Ubuntu backports repository, they arent supported. So what MS is doing with only Windows 10 support with for example Kaby Lake only on WIndows 10, is entirely consistent with what Linux has done for more than a decade.

LigH

25th January 2016, 09:33

Already mentioned that a few pages ago:

I just read that the support for newest CPU generations by Microsoft may only be certain on newest Windows Versions (e.g. Windows < 10 may not work well on Skylake and following generations)...

Linux seems to have some issues too, yet; I read an article in a PC magazine about a new laptop with issues regarding energy saving, fan noise, and video playback even. These CPUs seem to be different enough to require special kind of support. Drivers will be developed, but if kernel changes are also required to support them optimally, Microsoft may only apply them to W10+.

Ghitulescu

25th January 2016, 11:50

Linux seems to have some issues too, yet; I read an article in a PC magazine about a new laptop with issues regarding energy saving, fan noise, and video playback even. These CPUs seem to be different enough to require special kind of support. Drivers will be developed, but if kernel changes are also required to support them optimally, Microsoft may only apply them to W10+.

Linux has these issues for a long time now.
A few years ago someone "whistled" about secret deals between MS and hardware manufacturers, wherein the latter were required not to provide linux drivers for their products in exchange for the MS certification. Luckily, some of these decices work with generic drivers directly talking to the main chips of the product (like it was the case with sound and video cards before windows).

Solving these incompatibilities are problematic for many people and may turn them back to windows or mac.

And linux is not 100% immune against espionage. But at least it won't spy itself on you, and some holes may be closed (some webpages will refuse to launch, though - a nice trick to find the public offenders :) ).

Asmodian

25th January 2016, 20:12

Linux seems to have some issues too, yet; I read an article in a PC magazine about a new laptop with issues regarding energy saving, fan noise, and video playback even. These CPUs seem to be different enough to require special kind of support. Drivers will be developed, but if kernel changes are also required to support them optimally, Microsoft may only apply them to W10+.

Linux would only apply them to the newest version as well, I think that is all Nullack was saying. If you are annoyed you need to update your OS to Windows 10 to get support for the new hardware the same is true when using Linux.

Having issues with the kernel being too old or too new for a particular driver or software package is a very common problem when running Linux, in my experiance.

And linux is not 100% immune against espionage. But at least it won't spy itself on you, and some holes may be closed (some webpages will refuse to launch, though - a nice trick to find the public offenders :) ).

I wouldn't be so sure, what Dash (default in Ubuntu) does seems pretty much identical to Cortana as far as privacy concerns go.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2141952