Encoding 4K HDR 4:2:0 10bit BT.2020

[surami]

I would like to make a test encoding to 4K, HDR, 4:2:0, 10bit, BT.2020, something like I found here (http://www.demo-uhd3d.com/categorie.php?tag=hdr) (these are playing back properly on my TV), but if I use this line, then I get a video with strange yellowish, bluish colors:
avs4x26x-x64.exe -L "F:\x265\Win64_16bpp\x265.exe" --seek-mode safe --preset slow --subme 7 --no-open-gop --crf 17
--profile main10 --level-idc 5.1 --colorprim bt2020 --colormatrix bt2020nc --input-depth 8
--output "D:\encoding\x265_4k_420_10bit_bt2020.hevc" "signpost.avs"
pause

Should I have to write additonal commands too? --chromaloc --master-display --max-cll --min-luma --max-luma
or where is the problem?

I know, that I have 8bit input source, but this is just experimenting.

[Asmodian]

I assume your source is not really BT.2020? You need to convert the gamut to bt.2020 if you want the colors to be correct. The --colorprim and --colormatrix options set the information but do not covert. You are probably viewing BT.709 gamut video as if it was BT.2020 video so the colors are wrong.

I don't believe Avisynth's normal convert handles BT.2020 but Dither tools (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1386559#post1386559) does.

This should work:

Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb(matrix="709")
Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

[surami]

The main source is a RGB24 AVI file made by the Advanced FrameServer (http://sourceforge.net/projects/advancedfs/) in After Effects.

In the AVS I have this:

AVISource("D:\rendering\signpost.avi", audio=false).AssumeFPS(25,1)

ConvertToYV12(matrix="Rec709")

Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb(matrix="709")
Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

The situation is the same. On my PC with MPC-HC 1.7.9 it plays back with right colors, but on my TV not. So somewhere at the x265 file is the problem. I would like to generate files like we can find on the above mentioned site.

If I play those HDR files on my PC, the colors are wrong, they look like the mentioned problem with my x265 files on the TV, but if I play those files on TV, the colors are fine. :)

[Asmodian]

If you are already RGB all you need is:

AVISource("D:\rendering\signpost.avi", audio=false).AssumeFPS(25,1)

Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

Are you using madVR with MPC-HC? I believe madVR is required to respect gamut flags on the PC.

I wouldn't expect you to need any other flags set for your TV to understand BT.2020 but I am not sure.

[surami]

I'm using MPC-HC without madVR on my PC. In the morning I tried with madVR too, but there wasn't any difference.

I think there are some other flags that is necessary, because those HDR videos are runing fine on the USB port of the TV (Samsung UE40JU6000 (http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/tv-audio-video/televisions/uhd-tvs/UE40JU6000KXXU)).

[vivan]

When using madVR press Ctrl+J to display OSD - it will say what matrix it's using and why.

[surami]

I did that, the video from the hdrsample.com is using BT.2020, but MediaInfo shows this info too.

The playback with clean MPC-HC install or using madVR renderer doesn't make any difference in colors.

I forgot to mention, that I also run my hevc file through MP4Box with the following command:
mp4box -add "output.hevc" -brand hev1 "output.mp4"
pause

I uploaded my own experiment file here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9p82xjTYmAxXzE3eS1YNkRfcUU), please test it.

Maybe the TV decoder gets extra info from somewhere or my encoding isn't valid for TV playback, I don't know.

[Jamaika]

I also make mistakes, but maybe something like this:
ffmpeg.exe (http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/win64/static/ffmpeg-20151008-git-5911eeb-win64-static.7z) -s 3840x2160 -r 25.000 -i "import.mp4" -an -sn -f rawvideo -pix_fmt yuv420p10le - |
x264.10bpp.exe (http://komisar.gin.by/old/2597/x264.2597kMod.10bit.x86_64.exe) --demuxer raw --threads 4 --input-depth 10 --input-csp i420 --input-res 3840x2160 --output-csp i420 --keyint 25 --min-keyint 1 --bitrate 40000 --vbv-bufsize 120000 --vbv-maxrate 120000 --open-gop --fps 25.000
--preset veryslow --tune stillimage --range tv --colormatrix bt2020nc --colorprim bt2020 --transfer bt2020-10 - --output "output_x264.h264"

x265.10bpp.exe (https://encoder.pw/x265/default/x86_64/10-bit/x265_latest.zip) --input-depth 10 --input-csp i420 --input-res 3840x2160 --output-depth 10 --keyint 25 --min-keyint 1 --bitrate 40000 --vbv-bufsize 120000 --vbv-maxrate 120000 --open-gop --fps 25.000
--preset slow --range limited --colormatrix bt2020nc --colorprim bt2020 --transfer bt2020-10 - --output "output_x265.h265"

vpxenc.exe -v --threads=4 --bit-depth=10 --input-bit-depth=10 --i420 -w 3840 -h 2160 --kf-max-dist=25 --kf-min-dist=0 --target-bitrate=40000 --drop-frame=0 --fps=25000/1000
--good --profile=3 --codec=vp9 --passes=1 --pass=1 --cpu-used=3 --color-space=bt2020 --aq-mode=1 - -o "vp90_422p10le.webm"
MP4Box doesn't use to files 10bit!
ffmpeg.exe (http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/win64/static/ffmpeg-20151008-git-5911eeb-win64-static.7z) -s 3840x2160 -r 25.000 -i "output_x264/x265.h264/h265" -i audio.aac -i subtitle.srt -f mp4 -c copy -movflags faststart -pix_fmt yuv420p10le "output.mp4"

[surami]

I found an interesting discussion about HDR (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/1970346-official-2015-samsung-4k-suhd-js8500-series-tv-thread-140.html) from #4174, so I thought right, we need --master-display and --transfer commands too.

[CruNcher]

I see no strange colors or do you mean by that the Dynamic Range representation of the output result on the Target 10 bit ? Monitor itself ?

10->8bit
http://i2.sendpic.org/t/qE/qEUf1eniFX11PyhP2vkbZ0t1r0o.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/2/i/wzQ1FiIgkimj8fBo6jaKH38Of6f.png)
http://i1.sendpic.org/t/7d/7diX0fCxcDMsLfWl2OuSgYTcMk1.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/jzbnztU9OmgQ7ACXiPDHeJuDZlA.png)
http://i2.sendpic.org/t/8c/8cZrVpXcAXJ9Sao1ar1ALUZgKNP.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/2/i/67T2wuV2fiAw175cmPStLPuWWlh.png)

[surami]

MP4Box doesn't use to files 10bit!
I'm just using that for writing right meta info, I think my command doesn't make any other changes.

I see no strange colors or do you mean by that the Dynamic Range representation of the output result on the Target 10 bit ? Monitor itself ?
On my PC it looks right, as the source, I see the same good looking video on my display as you. The TV playback isn't fine, it's weird flat yellowish, bluish. Try the movies by downloading the samples from here (http://hdrsamples.com/), you will see weird flat movie (the same movie looks fine on my TV) and read the above mentioned forum too, there are infos to understand things.

[CruNcher]

Interesting they gain some dynamics with Samsungs Magic Bright Cinema Preset

Very big difference though unusable for Desktop usage (kills the eyes)

http://www.samsung.com/sg/support/skp/htg/17189

biggest impact i see especially on the skin representation

Sharper ,Colder and more Contrast is how it looks

Wow i could further improve the output result these samples are perfect for tweaking

[Jamaika]

I'm just using that for writing right meta info, I think my command doesn't make any other changes.
The display color matrix isn't affected. I have a problem with scrolling.

[foxyshadis]

I'm just using that for writing right meta info, I think my command doesn't make any other changes.


On my PC it looks right, as the source, I see the same good looking video on my display as you. The TV playback isn't fine, it's weird flat yellowish, bluish. Try the movies by downloading the samples from here (http://hdrsamples.com/), you will see weird flat movie (the same movie looks fine on my TV) and read the above mentioned forum too, there are infos to understand things.

The TV has to understand BT.2020 as well, if it's going to play the files. Are you sure it does? Otherwise it's probably just interpreting it as BT.709.

[surami]

Well I think it understands BT.2020, because the downloadable HDR samples are playing fine on my TV.

Update: Ohh I'm starting to get something in my head? If the TV understands BT.2020 then it plays the video as HDR and if it doesn't understands it plays as BT.709 LDR or how is this?

I found info (http://www.parabolaresearch.com/blog/2015-09-03-parabola-4-hevc-hdr-analyzer.html) about the HDR video (http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=113) provided by the FOX (https://www.linkedin.com/grp/post/3724292-6036912974852018176).

[surami]

My source is BT.709, so that's why the encoded BT.2020 flagged HEVC video gives strange colors on TV and it plays fine on PC?

[Asmodian]

My source is BT.709, so that's why the encoded BT.2020 flagged HEVC video gives strange colors on TV and it plays fine on PC?

If you used the conversion in AviSynth your source is no longer BT.709. That is why you need the conversion. :)

Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

There may be something else for HDR than simply using the BT.2020 matrix?

[Jamaika]

This is due to two variants standards High Dynamic Range UltraBluray. The above I described unknowingly SDR. The problem is that how many standards HDR. Is for any brand of TV is different SMPTE. Is this variant we use the function --range.
http://www.ip.philips.com/data/downloadables/1/9/7/9/philips_hdr_white_paper.pdf
For Panasonic, I see that it is recommended encoding of the HDR video the ST 2084 EOTF.

[benwaggoner]

If you used the conversion in AviSynth your source is no longer BT.709. That is why you need the conversion. :)

Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

There may be something else for HDR than simply using the BT.2020 matrix?
Correct. While TVs should be able to play 2020 content in some fashion, the size of the luma range and gamut are so huge that good tone mapping isn't technically practical, as possible luma and chroma values are so far out of what even the best consumer TVs today support.

The "HDR-10" format which is what everyone is using for actual HDR content on real displays uses the PQ Curve (SMPTE 2084) instead of gamma to map luma codes to actual brightness.

That uses --transfer 16 smpte-st-2084.

Gamma has been baked into our assumptions about video for, what 70 years now? So pretty much no tool has much of an idea for how to handle a polynominal mapping between Y' and actual display brightness. Processing needs to be done in linear light, and even tools like After Effects don't have the ability to export from their internal linear light space to PQ, and I'm told the existing icm/icc file format can't even describe the transform adequately.

Very few tools actually support converting to and from that color space today, and nothing that's FOSS I'm aware of. It's more like the colorists use a special display configured to provide that format, and then do a separate color grade based on that. It's not something that is done automatically; instead it as a re-grade from HDR source content, using various RAW-like formats that high-end digital cinema cameras can record.

Master-display and max-cll are optional metadata. You'd need to know what nominal display you are doing your conversion to HDR to know what those values are supposed to be, since real TVs don't support 100% of rec2020 (10K nits, huge color gamut). In practice most are targeting 1000 nits and the P3 color space used in digital cinema.

It's awesome that you're trying to do this, and I won't try to dissuade you by telling you any more about how incredibly hard it is to do in 2015.

I've done more HDR encoding than probably anyone else on the planet, and I wouldn't even know how to start in trying to personally convert and existing consumer HDR image or video to consumer HDR-10.

[CruNcher]

Interesting this old Samsung PLS Panel can actually drive this in the Samples not bad i never saw the Cinema Preset so expanding the quality on DVD content or stuff before then the impact it has on these Ateme 4K HDR Encoded Film Samples :)

I would say it's a decent Tone Mapping result also though i don't know the Pro Hardware result you use of course but Samsung Consumer stuff allways fascinates me here once again ;)

[surami]

If you used the conversion in AviSynth your source is no longer BT.709. That is why you need the conversion. :)

I see now, thanks. :)

Master-display and max-cll are optional metadata. You'd need to know what nominal display you are doing your conversion to HDR to know what those values are supposed to be, since real TVs don't support 100% of rec2020 (10K nits, huge color gamut). In practice most are targeting 1000 nits and the P3 color space used in digital cinema.

Thanks for the explanation Ben, I'm selfeducated, everything helps for me.

So if I'm working in AE in Rec.709 colorspace, my display can show me the same colorspace and the max cd/m2 is 300, then this RGB information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709#Primary_chromaticities) is needed right? And the command line should look like this: --master-display (http://x265.readthedocs.org/en/default/cli.html#cmdoption--master-display) "G(15000,30000)B(7500,3000)R(32000,16500)WP(15635,16450)L(3000000,1)"
(maths for green first value: 0.30/2*100000=15000)

What about this commands? --chromaloc, --max-cll, --min-luma, --max-luma, --temporal-layers

It seems, that playing BT.2020 video on my TV switched some settings automatically??, so that's why I saw those yellowish weird thing. I switched back the settings and now my experiment HEVC file runs fine and the colors are good now, but I will expand my script with some above mentioned additonal commands, I will report back soon.

[CruNcher]

Though as benwaggoner said it makes not much sense for a lot of content when it wasn't shot with the right equipment, also medical researchers warned from to much artificial blue wavelength light consumption and the blues get really pushed out here.

https://justgetflux.com/research.html

[surami]

My workflow looks like this till now:
1. Canon CR2 RAW frames
2. TIFF 16bit frames from Lighroom
3. ProRes 4:4:4 10bit MOV from ffmpeg prores_ks
4. grading in After Effects
5. AdvancedFrame Server RGB24 AVI from AE
6. Avisynth script dithering RGB to YUV BT.2020
7. x265 HEVC script
8. MP4Box script

The Canon CR2 RAW (Auto ETTR (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5693.0)) source should be good enough to test things, I don't own high-end camera, but my workflow isn't correct from nr. 5 and many other meta infos have to be added to the files as I read in this weekend to have correct HDR HEVC playback on the TV. I don't understand clearly yet, it's not simple and not usual workflow. :)

I read earlier, that every LED panel behind the seen picture is blue and it's not too healthy, maybe that's why Philips uses Ambilight and it's suggested to put a little lamp behind the TV for sparing the eyes and our brain, but please stay on topic.

I found Bill Mandel (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bmandel), he has many info about HDR.

It seems that the -transfer smpte-st-2084 has to do someting with the above mentioned extra meta infos (how to and what has to be generated? I have already a flat 10bit 4:2:0 YUV file converted from the 10bit 4:4:4 MOV), because it's also a switch for the UHD TV-s. I just encoded files with and without that and the contrast on my TV stayed the same, when I missed the command.

[Jamaika]

My workflow looks like this till now:
3. ProRes 4:4:4 10bit MOV from ffmpeg prores_ks

I wonder one thing. ProRes has colormatrix bt601 from ffmpeg. We're talking more about HDR cheated, since the scope of reduced number of colors.

BT.2020(10,000cd/m2) & BT.709(100cd/m2); Yxy (https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/docs/HDR/HDR_Sony%E6%8F%90%E6%A1%88_140717_Body.pptx.pdf)
http://i58.tinypic.com/2dlp5y0.jpg

[surami]

I wonder one thing. ProRes has colormatrix bt601 from ffmpeg. We're talking more about HDR cheated, since the scope of reduced number of colors.

My MOV file in MPC-HC MediaInfo doesn't shows any info about colormatrix and it seems it's good so (http://ffmpeg.gusari.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=802). Yes, I saw that SONY presentation too.

[Jamaika]

Video
ID : 1
Format : ProRes
Format version : Version 0
Format profile : 422 HQ
Codec ID : apch
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Video
ID : 1
Format : ProRes
Format version : Version 0
Format profile : 4444
Codec ID : ap4h
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Chroma subsampling : 4:4:4
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

[surami]

If I see my Samsung TV specs, then there is a number called picture quailty index: 800, I think that is the maximum brightness value (PQ EOTF (https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/2014-05-06-EOTF-Miller-1-2-handout.pdf)) what it can show us.

So a 10bit video with the BT.2020 and SMPTE ST.2084 command should = 8bit color info + 2bit for meta stuffs (EOTF PQ infos?). This way the TV switches to the propely settings to watch HDR movie, that's why we see flat picture on PC with MPC-HC, it can't decode that meta info yet, so it shows us simple BT.2020 without any contrast, brightness, saturation settings. Later HDR-12 will be 10bit color info + 2bit extra meta. Is this right?

I hope somebody comes and explains this things.

[nevcairiel]

If I see my Samsung TV specs, then there is a number called picture quailty index: 800, I think that is the maximum brightness value (PQ EOTF (https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/2014-05-06-EOTF-Miller-1-2-handout.pdf)) what it can show us.

Thats an arbitrary number Samsung invented to rate their own TVs, its not the brightness.

[surami]

Thats an arbitrary number Samsung invented to rate their own TVs, its not the brightness.

I read that too, but it seems so it's equal with the LED panel's cd/m2 (nits) capabilities. Take a look at this:

http://www.display-central.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Dolby_HDR_Test_Results_resize.jpg

As I read here (Dolby Vision White Paper (http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-white-paper.pdf)) und if I understand well, the graded video stuff has to be analyzed and maped to get those extra meta infos, so I think it's too early to do something with Avisynth, ffmpeg, x265 etc...

[benwaggoner]

So if I'm working in AE in Rec.709 colorspace, my display can show me the same colorspace and the max cd/m2 is 300, then this RGB information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709#Primary_chromaticities) is needed right? And the command line should look like this: --master-display (http://x265.readthedocs.org/en/default/cli.html#cmdoption--master-display) "G(15000,30000)B(7500,3000)R(32000,16500)WP(15635,16450)L(3000000,1)"
(maths for green first value: 0.30/2*100000=15000)
Those are in units of nits, which is linear light. The problem is there's no way to get back to PQ instead of gamma from After Effects that I know of.

What about this commands? [FONT="Courier New"]--chromaloc, --max-cll, --min-luma, --max-luma, --temporal-layers
x265.readthedocs.org (http://x265.readthedocs.org) is your friend :). For HDR, chromaloc of 2 works well. Max-cll is actually the Max Content Light Level (nits of brightest single pixel in the title), and Max Frame Light Level (average nits of the brightest frame in the title). Both optional metadata. The other ones don't have anything in particular to do with HDR.

It seems, that playing BT.2020 video on my TV switched some settings automatically??, so that's why I saw those yellowish weird thing. I switched back the settings and now my experiment HEVC file runs fine and the colors are good now, but I will expand my script with some above mentioned additonal commands, I will report back soon.
Could be. The problem is that "true" 2020 isn't displayable by any extant TVs, and there are no standards for how a TV is supposed to display them. So YMMV massively between manufacturers, and even displays from the same manufacturer. Native 2020 is fun to play around with, but it won't be a practical delivery standard for years, if ever.

Also, note that 10-bit Rec. 2020 is just expanded color primaries, but no extra luma range (just good old gamma). Expanded luma range comes with the 12-bit version of Rec. 2020. Which nothing AFAIK can decode AND display.

[foxyshadis]

Also, note that 10-bit Rec. 2020 is just expanded color primaries, but no extra luma range (just good old gamma). Expanded luma range comes with the 12-bit version of Rec. 2020. Which nothing AFAIK can decode AND display.

I did NOT know that, thanks for mentioning it! Does that also hold between constant and non-constant?

I'd think you would be able to at least calibrate a screen as closely as possible to BT.2020, even if you can't get the primaries to actually hit it. Have any calibration tools come out yet?

[CruNcher]

I did the calibration so far per eye with the Ateme Samples i wonder if Samsungs Magic Bright could be partially converted into a PP Shader except the Brightness which isn't artificial :D

What was really interesting once you hit it and then playback normal compressed content you will see compression artifacts much faster (comparable to a luminance amplified input), but in those Ateme Samples you get much more Data out which results in clearer percepted images.

And on the sRGB Desktop it's gonna kill your eyes.

[huhn]

I did NOT know that, thanks for mentioning it! Does that also hold between constant and non-constant?

I'd think you would be able to at least calibrate a screen as closely as possible to BT.2020, even if you can't get the primaries to actually hit it. Have any calibration tools come out yet?

http://calman.spectracal.com/blog/category/all

calman 5.6 can calibrate dolby vision HDR.

argyllCMS can calibrated for BT 2020 without HDR.

[surami]

The display color matrix isn't affected. I have a problem with scrolling.

Use x265 with --no-open-gop, but with my MP4Box generated file I have problem with seeking too.

I'd think you would be able to at least calibrate a screen as closely as possible to BT.2020, even if you can't get the primaries to actually hit it. Have any calibration tools come out yet?

Yes to calibrate the screen is needed, I followed this (http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/samsung/ju6500/settings?uxtv=8151466000c1) incase my TV set, but there is an option in picture menu, called native and my before mentioned custom settings looks very close.

x265.readthedocs.org is your friend. For HDR, chromaloc of 2 works well. Max-cll is actually the Max Content Light Level (nits of brightest single pixel in the title), and Max Frame Light Level (average nits of the brightest frame in the title). Both optional metadata. The other ones don't have anything in particular to do with HDR.

I set the max content light level to 800 (my TV's maximum nits value) and the avarage to 400, so --max-cll "800,400"

The problem is that "true" 2020 isn't displayable by any extant TVs, and there are no standards for how a TV is supposed to display them. So YMMV massively between manufacturers, and even displays from the same manufacturer. Native 2020 is fun to play around with, but it won't be a practical delivery standard for years, if ever.

Maybe there should be two video tracks, 1 for old TVs (BT.709) and 1 for newer TVs (BT.2020) and this later mentioned TV should get/know/decode the info from meta, that it have to play the BT.2020 track. Yes it's double the weight on the video track side, but this is a possible way or maybe dithering.

I uploaded a new experiment (ST.2084) (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9p82xjTYmAxRktTMjFYcUJiaWs), it's without audio track (TV says that unknown audio format) and seeking is problematic, but the colors, contrast, brightness are fine.

[sneaker_ger]

Use x265 with --no-open-gop, but with my MP4Box generated file I have problem with seeking too.
Try L-Smash muxer (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7jjrz5i4wcxhf49/AADZlN98OhKAvLHVwfaXYK4da?dl=0) instead of mp4box.

[CruNcher]

The FOX Studio HDR Fire Sample leaked ;)

http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=113

And another HDR Demo from Samsung :)

http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=115

This also makes manual profile tuning easier being able to cross peak @ different results ;)

[kolak]

FOX is pushing for HDR. This content will be most likely graded in P3, as it's pointless to do BT.2020 due to non-existing displays.
FOX is doing some deal with Samsung and this content is meant to look good on Samsung latest displays.

File is flagged as BT.2020, but it will be graded to "only" around 85% of BT.2020 gamut as they use Sony 4K OLED reference monitor. When it comes to consumer displays this will be way out of correct colours/saturation as gamut of the best consumer displays is even below P3.

[CruNcher]

Oh great in the End we gonna have the same disaster as with High Quality Audio and High Quality Music :D

[foxyshadis]

FOX is pushing for HDR. This content will be most likely graded in P3, as it's pointless to do BT.2020 due to non-existing displays.
FOX is doing some deal with Samsung and this content is meant to look good on Samsung latest displays.

File is flagged as BT.2020, but it will be graded to "only" around 85% of BT.2020 gamut as they use Sony 4K OLED reference monitor. When it comes to consumer displays this will be way out of correct colours/saturation as gamut of the best consumer displays is even below P3.

As long as the player or TV converts to colors that can be displayed (probably with an enable/disable HDR option), that won't matter much. It certainly won't be worse than the situation now, since consumers basically never calibrate their monitors. When HDR is disabled, it would scale HDR content back to BT.709 via something like audio compression/limiting (or just saturate it). Then it's only a problem if the data isn't tagged, but that shouldn't happen.

[benwaggoner]

As long as the player or TV converts to colors that can be displayed (probably with an enable/disable HDR option), that won't matter much. It certainly won't be worse than the situation now, since consumers basically never calibrate their monitors. When HDR is disabled, it would scale HDR content back to BT.709 via something like audio compression/limiting (or just saturate it). Then it's only a problem if the data isn't tagged, but that shouldn't happen.


Downconverting from HDR to SDR automatically is at.least as hard as.going in the opposite direction. In practice, HDR content simply won't be sent to non-HDR displays.

[kolak]

As long as the player or TV converts to colors that can be displayed (probably with an enable/disable HDR option), that won't matter much. It certainly won't be worse than the situation now, since consumers basically never calibrate their monitors. When HDR is disabled, it would scale HDR content back to BT.709 via something like audio compression/limiting (or just saturate it). Then it's only a problem if the data isn't tagged, but that shouldn't happen.

If displays gamut is way smaller than BT.2020 than everything will be very unsaturated.

[Stacey Spears]

For HDR, chromaloc of 2 works well.

Only if you used that when downsampling to 4:2:0. Type 0 is the same as current MPEG Progressive 4:2:0 used on DVD, Blu-ray and streaming services. Type 1 is JPG and type 2 is new. Seems like something everyone will get wrong if you stream 4:2:0 to the display for UHD 60p. I would stick with type 0.

[surami]

I did an extreme curve comparison (something like I read here last year (http://cineform.blogspot.hu/2014/02/quicktime-16-bit.html)) on a frame with VirtualDub (64bit) (http://virtualdub.sourceforge.net/) + the gradation curves plugin (64bit) (http://www.hlinke.de/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=en:virtualdub_pluginlist).

Dithering bt2020 in Avisynth brings back some information as I see.

Comparison was done in AE (16bit project, sRGB colorspace):
1. tif 16bit -> advanced frameserver rgb24 avi (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9p82xjTYmAxTFF3cXh0c1piVWs)
2. prores 444 10bit intermediate file -> advanced frameserver rgb24 avi (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9p82xjTYmAxNnlTNzRoQmwxVFE)
3. prores 444 10bit intermediate file -> advanced frameserver rgb24 avi -> dithering bt2020 avs (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9p82xjTYmAxZjkxdTd4MVdaV1k)

What would be the best? Encode the tif 16bit frames into a better intermediate file to maintain the quality as much as we can till x265 encoding?

[kolak]

Not sure what exactly you have done. Your pipe should be 10bit+ up to dithering.

If you have 10bit+ source and dither it on uncompressed level than difference can be day and night compared to plain conversion to 8bit. This is irrelevant to BT.2020. With wider gamut sources difference should be even bigger.

[surami]

Not sure what exactly you have done. Your pipe should be 10bit+ up to dithering.

If you have 10bit+ source and dither it on uncompressed level than difference can be day and night compared to plain conversion to 8bit. This is irrelevant to BT.2020. With wider gamut sources difference should be even bigger.

I just tried to compare my source tif 16bit frame with the prores 444 10bit frame (through that advanced frameserver thing) and with the bt2020 dithered stuff in avisynth, that what happens with colors.

I found an interesting site, according to different dithering technics (https://www.nmm-hd.org/newbbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=707&sid=2f431c586086bfa177d9c8633b1f2c34) (see the chart at the end) and there is a smpte group report about HDR (https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/Study%20Group%20On%20High-Dynamic-Range-HDR-Ecosystem.pdf).

[CruNcher]

FOX is pushing for HDR. This content will be most likely graded in P3, as it's pointless to do BT.2020 due to non-existing displays.
FOX is doing some deal with Samsung and this content is meant to look good on Samsung latest displays.

File is flagged as BT.2020, but it will be graded to "only" around 85% of BT.2020 gamut as they use Sony 4K OLED reference monitor. When it comes to consumer displays this will be way out of correct colours/saturation as gamut of the best consumer displays is even below P3.

It seems 20th Century Fox is in close collaboration with Samsungs R&D Sait institute with HDR content Quality

So Samsung is collaborating with Ateme and 20th Century Fox here, not bad ;)

The SUHD re-mastering engine automatically analyzes the brightness of images to minimize additional power consumption while expressing ultimate contrast levels, producing images with much darker blacks and an elevated brightness up to 2.5 times brighter than conventional TVs. and twice the color adjustment points for the most accurate color display.

By collaborating with the leading Hollywood studio 20th Century Fox, Samsung has been able to optimize content to meet premium quality SUHD standards. This allows for consumers to have an unrivaled UHD viewing experience.
Most recently, Samsung partnered with the Fox Innovation Lab to re-master multiple scenes from its critically acclaimed film, Exodus by Ridley Scott, specifically for the SUHD TV. The result was spectacular - generating more vivid colors and lifelike scenes.

Furthermore, Samsung’s SUHD TVs use environmentally friendly technology to deliver best-in-class energy efficiency and reliability.

So all the Content we actually see encoded with Atemes 10 Bit Encoder is especially optimized for their Display Results might be that why my Samsung PLS Monitor with their PP Engine creates such nice output results for the Exodus Sample ;)


The SUHD re-mastering engine automatically analyzes the brightness of images to minimize additional power consumption while expressing ultimate contrast levels.

They call this Optimal Contrast in their PP Engine on their Monitors, it works quiet nice and adapts relatively quickly

Does somebody know more about Samsungs Super Resolution algorithm they use in these SUHD TV Lineup and compared to Sonys Content Upscaling Results ?

http://i2.sendpic.org/t/56/56ESwJOnWZnCdOTkHRaWuymSZLV.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/2/i/zMFoenLCuvkRjqxdxPrSVcH30l1.png)

[benwaggoner]

So all the Content we actually see encoded with Atemes 10 Bit Encoder is especially optimized for their Display Results might be that why my Samsung PLS Monitor with their PP Engine creates such nice output results for the Exodus Sample ;)
Hardly "all the Content" :). There's 50+ episodes and several movies in HDR available on Amazon Video today, for Samsung, Sony, and LG TVs.

[kolak]

It seems 20th Century Fox is in close collaboration with Samsungs R&D Sait institute with HDR content Quality

So Samsung is collaborating with Ateme and 20th Century Fox here, not bad ;)



So all the Content we actually see encoded with Atemes 10 Bit Encoder is especially optimized for their Display Results might be that why my Samsung PLS Monitor with their PP Engine creates such nice output results for the Exodus Sample ;)



They call this Optimal Contrast in their PP Engine on their Monitors, it works quiet nice and adapts relatively quickly

Does somebody know more about Samsungs Super Resolution algorithm they use in these SUHD TV Lineup and compared to Sonys Content Upscaling Results ?

http://i2.sendpic.org/t/56/56ESwJOnWZnCdOTkHRaWuymSZLV.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/2/i/zMFoenLCuvkRjqxdxPrSVcH30l1.png)

Just to add- Technicolor is also part of this "collaboration".

[surami]

There is a new Sony 4K HDR BT.2020 10bit 59.940fps demo (http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144) to watch, "Camp" (nature).

[benwaggoner]

If displays gamut is way smaller than BT.2020 than everything will be very unsaturated.
Assuming that the TV doesn't do any tone mapping to display capabilities. I expect that the results from a >P3 gamut 2020 stream will vary a lot between models and manufacturers.

"Native" 2020 support isn't a big priority for any manufactuers, and there aren't any displays that can do a full 2020 display. Native 10-bit 2020 has no HDR for luma and more colors than are practical to display. That's why HDR-10 emerged, which allows for HDR in 10-bit, includes some basic metadata for luma range, and has an implicit assumption that only the P3 subset of 2020 chroma will be used.

Rec. 2020 12-bit does support HDR for luma, but we don't have 12-bit decoders or pipeline support in most HDR capable devices. And if we had 12-bit, I don't see any clear advantages for why the Rec. 2020 luma curve would be better than just using the PQ curve in 12-bit. An HDR-12 with support for up to 10K nits and full 2020 primaries would be a pretty trivial extension from what's being done today.

I doubt we'll see substantial real-world use cases for Rec. 2020 before 2020 :).

[benwaggoner]

Only if you used that when downsampling to 4:2:0. Type 0 is the same as current MPEG Progressive 4:2:0 used on DVD, Blu-ray and streaming services. Type 1 is JPG and type 2 is new. Seems like something everyone will get wrong if you stream 4:2:0 to the display for UHD 60p. I would stick with type 0.
I know some early HDR displays required 2. I'm not sure how universal that requirement is in practice. But good point about making sure that the chroma subsampling is done correctly to that mode. Slight chroma alignment errors aren't likely to be visible at UHD resolutions, but for low bitrate, low resolution HDR streams, it could become an issue.

[sneaker_ger]

I know some early HDR displays required 2. I'm not sure how universal that requirement is in practice.
UltraHD BluRay requires type 2 for BT.2020.

[benwaggoner]

UltraHD BluRay requires type 2 for BT.2020.
There we go. It's pretty much standard for all HDR-10 encodes AFAIK, which is what UHD BD uses for HDR.

[benwaggoner]

UltraHD BluRay requires type 2 for BT.2020.
Further speaking of which, I note that ffmpeg doesn't appear to have any way to set chromaloc. So getting the right chroma subsample location is going to be the domain of high-end specialized tools at the moment.

Unless someone else knows of anything generally available that can subsample to chromaloc 2.

[James Freeman]

Hi fellows,
Is there a quick way to convert a lossless screen capture RGB, mp4, 8bit to The new UHD spec (10bit, ST.2084, ST.2086 REC.2020)?
Don't mind about the range conversion (PC to TV) and color space.

Surami, I see you accomplished that, would you care to share the command line and what the source video can be?
I have used x264 by VideoLan and it simply works.

[kolak]

ffmpeg has these:

-chroma_sample_location <int> ED.V.... chroma sample location (from 0 to 6) (default unspecified)
unspecified ED.V.... Unspecified
left ED.V.... Left
center ED.V.... Center
topleft ED.V.... Top-left
top ED.V.... Top
bottomleft ED.V.... Bottom-left
bottom ED.V.... Bottom

-src_v_chr_pos <int> E..V.... source vertical chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-src_h_chr_pos <int> E..V.... source horizontal chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-dst_v_chr_pos <int> E..V.... destination vertical chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-dst_h_chr_pos <int> E..V.... destination horizontal chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)


but no idea is this is useful.

[surami]

Hi fellows,
Is there a quick way to convert a lossless screen capture RGB, mp4, 8bit to The new UHD spec (10bit, ST.2084, ST.2086 REC.2020)?
Don't mind about the range conversion (PC to TV) and color space.

Surami, I see you accomplished that, would you care to share the command line and what the source video can be?
I have used x264 by VideoLan and it simply works.

I don't know any simple way to convert a lossless 8bit, x264, RGB source to 10bit, ST.2084, x265, 4:2:0.

What I did in my experiment is to try to achieve a flat, unsaturated und unhighlighted source, what kind we can see if we watch an UHD HDR sample on a "normal", not for HDR content prepared playback setup (There is already a kind of solution to watch HDR sample as "normal" looking /not flat, unsaturated, etc./ video with the latest MPC-HC, madVR and LAVSplitter, I just tested it tomorrow).

So in AE I did some tricks with my source (ProRes, 4:4:4, 10bit, UHD) before I pushed out with Advanced FrameServer. The tricks were; shadow: +30, highlight: +5, master saturation: -25, contrast: -35 and there is an effect called "HDR Highlight Compression": 100%.

I did this kind of "reverse engineering", because as I experienced the ST.2084 command switches some settings on the UHD TV set, it bumps up the saturation, contrast, brightness and who knows what more settings, I didn't checked all of them.

So with the Advanced FrameServer plugin I pushed out a new looking AVI RGB24 video file (it's not rendering, just frameserving) and fed the AviSynth with it, where I used the command, what Asmodian suggested:

AVISource("D:\rendering\signpost.avi", audio=false).AssumeFPS(25,1)

Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")

At this part of the pipe you have already an AVS file, what can be passed to the x265 by using the avs4x26x.

My command line was this:
avs4x26x_64bit.exe -L "x265_10bit.exe" --seek-mode safe --input-depth 8 --preset slow --subme 7 --crf 13
--profile main10 --level-idc 5.1 --no-high-tier --bframes 12 --keyint 25 --min-keyint 1 --no-open-gop
--colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc
--master-display "G(8500,39850)B(6550,2300)R(35400,14600)WP(15635,16450)L(8000000,1)"
--max-cll "800,400" --chromaloc 0 --repeat-headers
--output "D:\rendering\output.hevc" "D:\rendering\signpost.avs"
pause

[James Freeman]

Thank you for the reply.

I have a script error when running just the script in MPC-HC:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e11a/3raelcy59pqjqq6zg.jpg

I made sure I have all the plug-ins. :(

[benwaggoner]

I don't know any simple way to convert a lossless 8bit, x264, RGB source to 10bit, ST.2084, x265, 4:2:0.
Yes, the challenge is that the source is sRGB (Rec. 709 primaries) with gamma. That can be mapped into a subset of PQ-space, where R'G'B'=255 could be mapped to a nominal 100 nits and color primaries mapped to the 709 subset of Rec. 2020. That should look just like the original on a properly calibrated display. But a sRGB-709 conversion would do the exact same thing and look at least as good. Doing a SDR 10-bit would avoid the limited range rounding issues and all that.

Mapping a SDR source to HDR output is a highly creative and subjective art. I wouldn't want to do it without HDR-capable reference monitors and grading software. It takes some high-end gear and software to even see HDR pixels values of a PC.

[benwaggoner]

ffmpeg has these:

-chroma_sample_location <int> ED.V.... chroma sample location (from 0 to 6) (default unspecified)
unspecified ED.V.... Unspecified
left ED.V.... Left
center ED.V.... Center
topleft ED.V.... Top-left
top ED.V.... Top
bottomleft ED.V.... Bottom-left
bottom ED.V.... Bottom

-src_v_chr_pos <int> E..V.... source vertical chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-src_h_chr_pos <int> E..V.... source horizontal chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-dst_v_chr_pos <int> E..V.... destination vertical chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)
-dst_h_chr_pos <int> E..V.... destination horizontal chroma position in luma grid/256 (from -513 to 512) (default -513)


but no idea is this is useful.
The references I find to the first parameter suggest this is just metadata set in the bitstream. The latter parameters sound like they would actually impact the image processing, but I have no idea what the correct values would be.

ffmpeg documentation always seems to be lacking in direct proportion to how much documentation would be useful...

[James Freeman]

Thanks surami, all is well now.
Here are the resulting files: Small HDR Screenshot Test Videos (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=12112147&postcount=439)

PS.
I've struggled the past two days with seeking problems in the resulting HEVC file, till I found that I had to Mux them. :facepalm:

[surami]

That's nice you did some experiments and you are partly happy with it! :) Would you be so kind to share the workflow (with code lines please, as we did it), that how did you produce that samples?

I experimented with this things last year, but as I remember well this was my hevc to mp4 mux code:
mp4box -add output.hevc:FMT=HEVC:fps=25 -new output.mp4
pause

[James Freeman]

Before the encoder I convert (not attach) the standard 709 gamma 2.2 image to BT.2020 ST.2084 using an ICC profile in Gimp (freeware photoshop), Image->Mode->Convert to Color Profile.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/hssxy3gwojyxnlj/ST.2084_Profiles.zip
Then I lower the output Levels to 190 (out of 255) to limit the HDR image to 1000nit.
Or better yet, use this curve for best results that look exactly like an HDR image from the UHD disc.
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7e52/d9l46dw6p66wf61zg.jpg
Process this way as many images as you like, make sure you name them in order 1,2,3,4,etc...

Then I create a lossless AVI video with VirtualDub.
Open first photo (1) and it will load all the rest automatically.
Change frame rate to 1/4 (its an images slideshow not a movie), color depth to 4:2:0, no audio.
Codec Lossless.
Export to 1.avi (20 lossless images = 60MB).

AVISource("E:\x265\1.avi", audio=false)
The video/image should already be in 2020 st.2084 as though it was graded on such monitor.
We already did that in Photoshop/Gimp.

avs4x26x.exe -L "x265.exe" --seek-mode safe --input-depth 8 --preset slow --subme 7 --crf 0 --profile main10 --level-idc 5.1 --no-high-tier --b-adapt 0 --bframes 0 --keyint 1 --min-keyint 1 --no-open-gop --colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc --master-display "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)" --max-cll "0,0" --output "E:\x265\output.hevc" "E:\x265\Script.avs"

muxer -i output.hevc?[fps=1/4] -o output.mp4
del output.hevc

L-Smash muxer as suggested here by sneaker_ger: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1742938#post1742938
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7jjrz5i4wcxhf49/AADZlN98OhKAvLHVwfaXYK4da?dl=0
Works great.

This is not a movie but an HDR images slideshow with 1/4 fps (each image 4 second on screen) therefor: keyint 1, no B frames, crf 0.

Now you just click Run.bat and you have a beautiful HDR slideshow Output.mp4.
Looks great on HDR TV's as reported by testers. :)

Download the latest Avatar HDR update I've posted there. ;)

[surami]

Yes, the challenge is that the source is sRGB (Rec. 709 primaries) with gamma. That can be mapped into a subset of PQ-space, where R'G'B'=255 could be mapped to a nominal 100 nits and color primaries mapped to the 709 subset of Rec. 2020. That should look just like the original on a properly calibrated display. But a sRGB-709 conversion would do the exact same thing and look at least as good. Doing a SDR 10-bit would avoid the limited range rounding issues and all that.

Mapping a SDR source to HDR output is a highly creative and subjective art. I wouldn't want to do it without HDR-capable reference monitors and grading software. It takes some high-end gear and software to even see HDR pixels values of a PC.

Everything starts with proper exposure settings on a camera, which has a very good quality sensor at around (at least) ~12stops dynamic range or not? If you expose to the right (ETTR) and you bring back shadows, push down the highlights and set the gamma, contrast, saturation to the right values on a RAW footage, you are somewhere at a flat tonemapped HDR kind looking picture. You can use the HDR Compander and HDR Highlight Compression effects (https://helpx.adobe.com/after-effects/using/utility-effects.html#hdrcompandereffect) and you are ready to encode the footage as 4K UHD 10bit BT.2020 ST.2084 video and that's all or not? I will test this two effects as I have more time, I only tested that HDR Highlight Compression thing on my footage.

[surami]

I just uploaded a new experiment file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxcmNOSGtIMnNMWW8/view?usp=sharing).

1. ETTR, full resolution CR2 RAW files from a Canon 550D camera (http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Canon/EOS-550D) ->
2. 4K UHD Cineform 12bit RGBA intermediate footage, rendered straight from the RAW sequence ->
3/a. AE: UHD, sRGB, 32bit composition
3/b. Effects on the intermediate footage:
+ Exposure; Gamma Correction: 1,60
+ Hue/Saturation; Master Saturation: -30
+ Compress; Gain: 1, Gamma: 1
+ Shadow/Highlight; Auto Amounts
+ Color Balance; Shadow Blue Balance: -5
+ Expand; Gain: 1, Gamma: 1
+ HDR Highlight Compression: 100%
+ Unsharp Mask; Amount: 20, Radius: 50
3/c. Advanced FrameServer: RGB24 ->
4. AviSynth conversation ->
AVISource("D:\rendering\signpost.avi", audio=false).AssumeFPS(25,1)
Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="2020")
5. x265 rendering through avs4x26x:
avs4x26x_64bit.exe -L "x265_10bit.exe" --seek-mode safe --input-depth 8 --preset slow --subme 7 --crf 13
--profile main10 --level-idc 5.1 --no-high-tier --bframes 12 --keyint 25 --min-keyint 1 --no-open-gop
--colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc
--master-display "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)"
--max-cll "1000,500" --chromaloc 0 --repeat-headers
--output "D:\rendering\output.hevc" "D:\rendering\signpost.avs"
pause

6. muxing with mp4box:
mp4box -add output.hevc:FMT=HEVC:fps=25 -new output.mp4
pause

James, could you please share the footage on the Blu-ray forum for checking the file by UHD HDR TV set or player owners and report back?

[James Freeman]

Yes, here are my HDR videos: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=12112147&postcount=439

You are doing it the hard way!
Simply convert your video to 2084 using the ICC profile I attached in my previous post.
Then lower the output level to 75% (1000nit).

You have an error in this clip, metadata says 80 nit peak instead of 800 (I assume).

[surami]

I just encoded it again, please redownload. I corrected the master display value and the max content light level, now the metadatas are fine:
--master-display "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)"
--max-cll "1000,500"

On my Samsung UE40JU6000 UHD TV it looks quite nice.

I will try the method, what you suggested. Your last two samples (Revenant, Avatar) have clipping problems in the highlight area if I play on PC with latest MPC-HC + LAVSplitter + madVR, but on my TV is not so visible, maybe this is because of the poor source quaility. You did a very good job man. :)

I just asked you to share my footage or this topic on the blu-ray forum for checking by other people, who has 4K HDR TV set. (I don't want to register on that site, here is already a good discussion about the topic.)

[James Freeman]

Your video looks great.

Nothing is clipped in SDR to HDR clips if you select the 1,300 (or higher) nit value in madVR because it is higher than the encoded 1000 nit value.
The source of this images: Avatar 1 (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Avatar-Blu-ray/10629/#Screenshots) Avatar 2 (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Avatar-Blu-ray/7847/#Screenshots) Revenant (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Revenant-Blu-ray/123436/#Screenshots)

BTW, I don't think madVR uses the max-cll metadata to do anything (I tested that), nor any TV for that matter.
A TV just maps the 10bit code words of the ST.2084 curve values to the luminace, if it supports all the encoded ones.
If not, it compresses (or clips?) the code words like madVR does to it's highest luminance value.

I use HCFR to determine what code word in 8 bit would be 1000 nit on the static st.2084 curve because that is the peak of what most TV support today.
In 8bit (0-255 PC range) with the ST.2084 EOTF, 1000 bit would be at 75% input, so 256*0.75 = 190 (or 768 in 10bit full range).
That is why I always make sure your peak white before HEVC encoding is no higher than 75% of input range.
Looks like you already know that by checking your video without madVR and taking a screenshot.

The trick is how to make a good looking HDR video WITHOUT owning an HDR monitor right? :)
That answer is Histogram.

I will share your test video Blu-Ray forum.

[James Freeman]

From what I read in your post, you convert your Canon 550D RAW footage to something that will look good after encoding to HDR.
Are you converting the entire color space of the RAW footage from the Cannon 550D to RGB without using a Cannon 550D profile?

Then you de-saturate (-30) and lift the gamma (1.6) of the image so it will look right AFTER you encode it to BT.2020 ST.2084 HDR.
No wonder it took you a million tries till it looked right, you are doing it the hard way.

Can you please share a single screenshot from the Cineform 12bit RGBA intermediate footage (before you apply effects on the intermediate footage)?

[surami]

That is why I always make sure your peak white before HEVC encoding is no higher than 75% of input range.

Now I put a last effect on my footage named "Levels", I can see there the histogram. If I switch on and off the HDR Highlight Compression effect (set on 100%), then I can see exactly that thing what you wrote, it shrinks down the range to ~75%, so the highlights of the footage will be flat. But this is not enough to prepare the footage for encoding, you have to desaturate it and push up the gamma. I just tested it and if I don't do that, then the encoded file is too contrasty and oversaturated.

From what I read in your post, you convert your Canon 550D RAW footage to something that will look good after encoding to HDR.
Are you converting the entire color space of the RAW footage from the Cannon 550D to RGB without using a Cannon 550D profile?

Then you de-saturate (-30) and lift the gamma (1.6) of the image so it will look right AFTER you encode it to BT.2020 ST.2084 HDR.
No wonder it took you a million tries till it looked right, you are doing it the hard way.

Can you please share a single screenshot from the Cineform 12bit RGBA intermediate footage (before you apply effects on the intermediate footage)?

I'm encoding my Auto-ETTR exposed (by Magic Lantern) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right) debayered (by Adobe Camera RAW) 14bit CR2 RAW files (http://www.canon-europe.com/for_home/product_finder/cameras/digital_slr/eos_550d/#p-specification13) to a Cineform 12bit RGBA 4:4:4:4 (https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/using/gopro-cineform-codec.html) (highest quality, max bitdepth) timelapse MOV footage using sRGB profile on the composition.

I uploaded the 4K UHD Cineform footage (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxMHlGWl9YTWwtUk0/view?usp=sharing) (882 MB), if you or somebody want to play with it. Decoder (http://cineform.com/gopro-cineform-decoder) is needed to play the file, but use a previous LAVSplitter, it won't work with the latest one and OSD screen also says, that's a YUY2 4:2:2 8bit footage, but that's wrong.

[James Freeman]

sRGB video makes it a lot easier but If the video was RAW this makes things a little more complicated because I don't have your camera profile, but if I did, I would preserve a wider gamut to contain in 2020.

Here is your video using my method in After Effects: 4K Sun HDR Test.mp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/qp12w5fm5ng3tcm/4K+sun+HDR+test.mp4)

Exactly the same process on Martian SDR Trailer: Martian SDR to HDR Trailer.mp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/oeawrppgi3hzfv3/Martian+SDR+to+HDR+Trailer.mp4)
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej3ioOneTy8

I just applied a BT.2020 ST.2084 ICC profile (I linked it) to the video and a slight Curve to limit output to 75% in 32bit and lower the average picture level but keep the highlights at peak, THAT'S IT!
The saturation and brightness is already as it should be because the profile knows how to convert from 709 gamma 2.2 to 2020 ST.2084 automatically.

I also posted this on Blu-Ray.com
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=273716&page=25

EDIT:
Martian trailer updated from 40s to full 2m:40s time.

[James Freeman]

I don't know your favorite video editing software but I use After Effects.
Converting from SDR to HDR is actually very easy in two simple steps.

1. Convert 709 to 2020 ST.2084 using an ICC profile.
2. Use Curves to limit to 75% output (1000 nit on 2084 curve), and expand the highlights while maintaining straight line for lower tones.
This curve is NOT a gamma curve, it is an Expander curve, basically a reverse S-Curve (you know what that is right?).
Export and encode with HEVC (2020, ST.2084, P3).
That's it!

If you ask me, the studios are doing just that for the UHD blu-rays.
They use a high bit depth 2K SDR master which was graded on a P3 Grade 1 monitor (SDR).
For Digital Cinema or Blu-Ray they simply apply a Color Profile at export and done.
For the HDR blu-ray they also expand (un-compress) the range back (reverse S-Curve), and apply a color profile.

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/854e/n6i8b28aw1ihf63zg.jpg

[surami]

sRGB video makes it a lot easier but If the video was RAW this makes things a little more complicated because I don't have your camera profile, but if I did, I would preserve a wider gamut to contain in 2020.
If dcp files are good for you to do something, then you can download them (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxSFRKSkhrLUQzcjA/view?usp=sharing). Here is an opensource dcp to icc converter (https://sourceforge.net/projects/dcp2icc/?source=typ_redirect).
The intermediate Cineform file is encoded from 125 piece of ETTR exposed Canon 550D CR2 RAW files (they are photos not videos).

Here is your video using my method in After Effects:
4K Sun HDR Test.mp4
It has been encoded correctly by your method, but there isn't any mastering on it. There should be a correction to get back the shadow details and push down the highlight details a bit.

Exactly the same process on Martian SDR Trailer:
Martian SDR to HDR Trailer.mp4
It looks fine on my TV set and madVR playback.

The saturation and brightness is already as it should be because the profile knows how to convert from 709 gamma 2.2 to 2020 ST.2084 automatically.
Thanks, now I understand and thanks for the ICC profiles too.

I encoded a new file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxQy0tMVJWZUxaZUU/view?usp=sharing) using a hybrid method (yours and my). The playback of my videos isn't so smooth then yours. Maybe this is because my CPU has weak power to serve this pipe (AE, ME, Advanced FrameServer, AviSynth, avs4x26x, x265), there are some missed frames as I see.

Anyway, my settings are:
sRGB, 32bit composition
+ Compress; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Shadow/Highlight; 10/5
+ Color Balance; Shadow Blue Balance: -10
+ Expand; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Color Profile Converter; In:sRGB, Out: Rec2020 ST.2084
+ HDR Highlight Compression: 100%
+ Unsharp Mask; Amount: 20, Radius: 50

+ I used --preset slower at x265.

[James Freeman]

Anyway, my settings are:
sRGB, 32bit composition
+ Compress; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Shadow/Highlight; 10/5
+ Color Balance; Shadow Blue Balance: -10
+ Expand; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9

Looks beautiful in SDR.. BUT you made a mistake with "HDR Highlight Compression".
Do not use "HDR Highlight Compression" it is not the same!!
You compress (s-curve) the highlight while my Curves EXPAND (anti S-curve), two exactly opposite things!
This is not an optional step, it is mandatory to lower average picture level while maintain peak white.

Your average picture level is too high, apply the Curves effect after Color Profile Converter, as in my image.
SDR to HDR (no black clip).ACV (http://www.mediafire.com/download/9w1tf37n60owx94/SDR_to_HDR_%28no_black_clip%29.ACV)
* Curves preset.

When the average picture level is high it's like an SDR screen with 1000nit peak.
The APL should be around 10nit for SDR and HDR, but the peaks are the difference between SDR and HDR.
Meaning, skin tones should be roughly the same luminance level in SDR or HDR, the extra luminance is there for things that actually need it.

[James Freeman]

Using HCFR I checked what input (0-255) would be what luminance (Nit) value up to 50 nit on Gamma 2.2 (black compensated) and ST.2084, and made a small table.

Most of SDR content resides below 50 nit (step 186), actually, most of it on average is around 6 nit.
From 50nit to 100nit (190 to 255) is the compressed highlights that the studio compressed from the high dynamic film or camera to SDR 1000:1 monitor.

What I did is create a Curve after the Profile Conversion so that the luminance values from 0.1 to 50 nit would be the same on SDR and HDR, actually, it supposed to be that way!

From 50 nit and up is the big difference!
Where the studios compress the highlights to 100nit on SDR, now is compressed (uncompressed actually) to 1000 nit on HDR.

To check this I applied this method on an SDR photo and compared to a official unprocessed HDR photo (from blu-ray.com site).
The processed SDR photo looks identical to the official ST.2084 HDR photo using this method.
You already can see that on the SDR to HDR Martian trailer I converted.

BT.2020 ST.2084 Profiles: http://www.mediafire.com/download/hssxy3gwojyxnlj/ST.2084_Profiles.zip
After Effects Curves Preset: http://www.mediafire.com/download/9w1tf37n60owx94/SDR_to_HDR_%28no_black_clip%29.ACV
Now that there is a preset you can work peacefully in 32bit floating and not worry about 8bit input/output values.

Have fun. :D

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c920/9tu677scngx6222zg.jpg

[surami]

We are making two totally different things.

You are encoding compressed 4:2:0 8bit SDR file to compressed 4:2:0 HDR 10bit file (but it's 8bit encoded as 10bit at the end, because you cannot get back the extra 2bits of information, it's not there as I know and of course you have to correct the things in post) with your method and you judge it with madVR on an 8bit display (what's your brand and type?). Because of your corrections (curve, level) the SDR 8bit footage looks the same as the HDR 10bit.

I'm encoding almost uncompressed 4:4:4:4 12bit RGBA files (ETTR) to compressed 4:2:0 HDR 10bit (I have to lift the shadows and shrink the highlights + compress it, because if I don't put HDR Highlight Compression effect to the end, the encoded footage is totally blown out, etc.) and I judge it with my calibrated Samsung UE40JU6000 4K TV set through USB pendrive.

Of course I also see strange colors on my DELL 2311H display, because it has 8bit panel, it can't show me the full 10bit spectrum, but on my TV it's a very nice HDR footage, a bit overexposed (it can be corrected before encoding, maybe with highlight 10-20). That's why 10bit HDR mastering display is suggested for grading and that's why I asked you to share the footage on blu-ray forum, maybe there are people with HDR displays.

But man these are experimentations and I learnt very much on this days, thanks for you too.

I'll be back as I have time, have a nice weekend.

[James Freeman]

I'm using a i1 Display Pro calibrated and profiled Dell 2410 IPS 10bit input (8bit+FRC), 3DLUT in madVR in 10bit (if needed).

You are right indeed that my source files are in 8bit and there is no way to reconstruct data that is not there.
Still, 1 nit is 1 nit in Gamma or 2084 EOTF, although a higher bit depth file has more bit words from 0 to 1 nit and has more room to work with the shadow detail without destroying it.

I agree that it is much better to work in 10bit if your monitor supports it, bit if you are using madVR it dithers down to 8bit and not even superman can see the difference between 125 and 126 in one pixel size.

[surami]

higher bit depth file has more bit words from 0 to 1 nit and has more room to work with the shadow detail without destroying it.
At first I was amazed, that how much dynamic range is in this 12bit ETTR intermediate footage after correction. A new file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxRmN5d3h6N0pVLVk/view?usp=sharing) is uploaded, highlights: 20 and I added two more values into my encoding command --pools 2 --frame-threads 1 because of the missing frames in the previous encodes. Now I think the CPU power is well shared, I have a i5 760 processor with 4 cores.

[James Freeman]

It looks the same, over exposed and the APL is much too high, you did not apply the Curves again.

I'll just copy my post here:
What we must understand is that most film shot on camera still use 18% output as middle grey in mind.
Middle grey is 50% input (128 in 8bit) that will give you 18 nit (cd/m2) output.
Who determined that 50% input is 18 nit output? 100 nit peak Gamma 2.4 CRT TV!
So the whole system is still adapted to SDR CRT technology with Gamma of around 2.4.

The camera (digital or film) may capture huge dynamic range but the captured middle grey card should still produce around 18 nit on your SDR or HDR display!

A calibrated SDR TV (100nit peak) and HDR TV (1000nit peak) have the same picture luminance and information from 0 to around 50 nit and SHOULD look the same.
75% input (190 in 8bit) for that matter is 50 nit on a CRT or any SDR TV.
It's from 50 nit and up what makes the difference between SDR and HDR TV.

On an SDR TV the huge dynamic range highlights are compressed from 50nit to 100nit with something called Log curve in the camera (film does that naturally).
While on HDR TV the highlight have much more room from 50nit to 1000nit so the highlights are not as compressed, in fact they have to be expanded from the camera Log curve.

The Light Illusion site has a terrible example.
His error is that he thinks the luminance is totally clipped above 100nit from the camera capture (like the HDR to SDR images blu-ray.com posted).
In reality all the F-Stops the camera captured are compressed from 50nit to 100nit (75% input to 100% input) or 190 to 255 in 8bit.
For HDR, 18 nit and 50 nit are STILL the same as SDR but above 50 nit, luminance is simply expanded and mapped.

In other words, from 50 to 1,000nit the captured data above 50nit has to be expanded linearly and mapped to input levels 44% to 75% in ST.2084.
Whether on SDR, from 50 to 100nit output is 75% to 100% input.

The Curve preset I've posted will do just that, it will maintain the same luminance values up to 50nit on HDR TV as the original SDR grade on an SDR TV, but expand the highlight to 1000 nit.
Why do you insist on using "HDR Highlight Compression" when it maps the luminance values absolutely wrong?

[surami]

James, could you please show me a properly corrected (shadows,highlights,etc.) and encoded footage with your own settings? I'll check that with my TV and I'll report back what happens.

If I apply the "PQ 4,000 ACES 800 BT.2020 to BT.709 2.2 Gamma" 3dlut on my Dell display + I use pure power curve 1.8, then my footage looks the same as on my TV, but the brightness is weaker, because the display's max nit is 300.

[James Freeman]

Just do what looks good to you in SDR and add Profile and Curves (my preset) after that.

sRGB, 32bit composition
+ Compress; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Shadow/Highlight; 10/5
+ Color Balance; Shadow Blue Balance: -10
+ Expand; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+Color Profile Converter
+Curves (my preset)


I don't want to grade your video, it's your work. ;)

[surami]

If I do what you wrote (+ level correction, it have to be done too), then my encoded footage has less dynamic range, less color, less shadow details, blown out highlights. So simple your curve is not for this workflow, it's for SDR to HDR conversation. But I wrote it already, that we do two totally different things.

That's ok, that my encoded footage looks overexposed, but that is because of my grading.

If you play my last uploaded (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxRmN5d3h6N0pVLVk/view?usp=sharing) (#05) experiment with madVR + you add this 3dlut (http://madshi.net/HDRto800nits.madVR.rar) (4,000nits BT.2020 HDR encoding to 800nits BT.709 SDR, gamma 2.2) as calibration + you set the gamma correction/pure power curve to 1.8, then you will see the correct footage and it's circa how it looks on my 4K TV, the difference is brightness.

I think something is wrong with the encoded metadatas, that's why madVR doesn't corrects to the proper settings or I don't know.

[benwaggoner]

I'm not sure what the point is here. Making HDR from SDR is pretty fraught, and a decent effort requires significant shot-by-shot tweaking by a professional colorist. If the goal is to experiment with HDR encoding and playback, great, but I don't recommend anyone actually use such a simple automated approach to generate anything they think represents what "real" HDR looks like.

It would be good to get some HDR sources posted for people to play with. I'm not aware of any. The 4K 3D version of Big Buck Bunny had OpenEXR files, and if those have >1.0 values in them, an HDR regrade may be pretty straightforward for someone with access to the right equipment and HDR color grading experience.

Even shooting with an "HDR" camera generally results in log-space RAW files of some sort, and it's not a trivial task converting those to Rec. 2020. It's akin to DNG-to-sRGB in Lightroom, but 24 times a second, and with >10x the dynamic range to work with.

[surami]

It would be good to get some HDR sources posted for people to play with. I'm not aware of any.
I only know about a RED Epic Dragon 6K footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZwPoFwlZJE) provided by Luke Neumann (Neumann Films) and RED One/RED Epic 4K/5K footages (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjJee-JAzoRRH5T0wqe7_tw/search?query=4k+clip) provided by Frederick Tschernutter (UHDmotion).
Even shooting with an "HDR" camera generally results in log-space RAW files of some sort, and it's not a trivial task converting those to Rec. 2020. It's akin to DNG-to-sRGB in Lightroom, but 24 times a second, and with >10x the dynamic range to work with.
I convert those slightly corrected (with Lighroom: temperature, lens profile correction, chromatic abberation, denoise, sharpening) Adobe Camera Raw debayered CR2 RAW frames (+ XMP info for each frame) to a 12bit 4:4:4:4 RGBA Rec.709 Cineform footage with the help of After Effects (32bit composition) and Media Encoder. There isn't any correction in AE at this step, I just put the RAW sequence on the timeline and encode. After that I import the Cineform footage and I put it on an another composition trying to achieve a similar looking footage, what you can see here (http://zsolt.gyapay.hu/images/portfolio/still-photography/still-photography-46.jpg), it was graded in Lightroom and this picture is a frame from the same ETTR shooted RAW sequence. I make that intermediate file, because continous fluid CR2 RAW sequence playback isn't possbile in AE or PP. I thought, that if I make shadow/highlight/color corrections on the intermediate footage + I add a Rec.709 to Rec.2020 ST.2084 profile correction (linked by James) + highlight compression, then I will be ready to make a 10bit x265 compressed HDR footage through Advanced FrameServer + AviSynth. My starting point was, that if I can achieve a good looking picture with Lightroom (of course with corrections), then I can do this with AE too on my intermediate file and I can play back my corrected 10bit compressed footage on a 4K TV set, which TV can play 10bit BT.2020 ST.2084 HDR files very nicely.

As you see I'm not professional, I'm just experimenting. I don't have 10bit HDR grading display and high end stuffs, that's why I'm asking people for checking my encoded footage. Is that correct or not? I don't know what madVR makes with 10bit encoded HDR BT.2020 ST.2084 footages, but my video looks quite good on my 8bit display. Yes it's not perfect, could be better of course (better corrections, grading, etc.), but it was a very quick way to do this experimentation.

At the weekend I went into a shop and checked my last encoded footage on a Samsung UE65JS9500 TV set, the playback was smooth, colors were nice (it could be better), gradients in the sky was also good.

[benwaggoner]

Going from RAW to 709 you lost all the HDR-ness. Ideally you could go from RAW to Rec. 2020 to at least get bigger chroma primaries. However all HDR uses the PQ curve instead of gamma, and I don't know of a way to do that in the Adobe tools yet, or really anything that'll work in a <$100K setup.

I expect things will get MUCH easier once the Windows 10 summer update is out.

[James Freeman]

Okay, I have managed to maintain a 10bit 4K workflow from start to finish.

First I export to PNG image sequence in 16bit, smallest file format compared to TIFF, DPX, EXR because PNG varies in size depending on the content.
EDIT: Okay, EXR is actually better and faster.
Next I use ffmpeg PNG image sequence to Y4M raw in yuv420p10, 16bit RGB full range PNG converted and dithered down to 10bit YUV 4:2:0 Limited range by ffmpeg with 1:1 color accuracy.

For anyone interested, here are my steps:
ffmpeg.exe -framerate 24 -i "E:\Sequence\img-%%05d.png" -strict -1 -pix_fmt yuv420p10 -vf colormatrix=bt601:bt709 "E:\x265\RAW.Y4M"

x265.exe --input-depth 10 --uhd-bd --preset slow --crf 18 --colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc --master-display "G(8500,39850)B(6550,2300)R(35400,14600)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)" --max-cll "0,0" --chromaloc 2 --output "E:\x265\output.hevc" "E:\x265\RAW.y4m"

mp4box.exe -add E:\X265\output.hevc -new E:\X265\output.mp4

After that sneaker_ger suggested that I don't need to generate the HUGE y4m file before pushing it to x265.
But simply I could pipe ffmpeg straight to x265 in a single process without wasting time or HDD space, so I did.
Now I run this "single click" batch file to go from PNG to MP4 automatically:

ffmpeg.exe -framerate 24 -i "E:\x265\Sequence\%%05d.png" -strict -1 -pix_fmt yuv420p10 -vf colormatrix=bt601:bt709 -f YUV4MPEGPIPE - | x265.exe --input-depth 10 --uhd-bd --preset slow --crf 18 --colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc --master-display "G(8500,39850)B(6550,2300)R(35400,14600)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)" --max-cll "0,0" --chromaloc 2 --output "E:\x265\output.hevc" - --y4m
mp4box.exe -add E:\X265\output.hevc -new E:\X265\output.mp4
pause

EDIT Important!
The "-vf colormatrix=bt601:bt709" should be changed to "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020" because the colormatrix command is only 8bit and it dithers down to 8bit.
While the scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020 command bypasses any conversion while retains correct chroma values between RGB to YUV conversion.

[surami]

Did you export a black to white gradient PNG sequence from AE? Could you please share what composition settings, effects on the footage, etc.? I could export a Cineform RGBA 12bit to test, it should be smaller than PNG as I think, but I don't know how ffmpeg supports the Cineform at this time.

[James Freeman]

Yes I created (in AE) and exported 16 bit black to white gradient in PNG and indeed the resulting 10bit file from ffmpeg is dithered perfectly from 16bit RGB full range to 10bit YUV 4:2:0 limited range.
Yes I can share my AE effect setting, right after this exporting will be done...

[James Freeman]

OpenEXR is smaller and faster than PNG and in Full Floating point.

[benwaggoner]

OpenEXR is smaller and faster than PNG and in Full Floating point.
And is what most HDR content is graded in.

An OpenEXR with values >1.0 is pretty much by definition HDR. Hollywood is moving towards having intermediate rendering stages preserving >1.0 data for later HDR regrading.

[nevcairiel]

Next I use ffmpeg PNG image sequence to Y4M raw in yuv420p10, 16bit RGB full range PNG converted and dithered down to 10bit YUV 4:2:0 Limited range by ffmpeg with 1:1 color accuracy

ffmpeg colormatrix filter does not support anything above 8-bit, so your conversion is losing a bunch of information along the way.

If you have a very recent version of ffmpeg, you can use the brandnew colorspace filter which adds full high bitdepth and bt2020 support.

On the other hand doing a 601->709 conversion and then encoding it as 2020 seems rather oddball either way, so something is crazy anyway.

[James Freeman]

The "colorspace" filter simply doesn't work for me, it always stops ffmpeg with a red error "Unsupported input primaries 2 <unknown>"
-vf colorspace=bt709

the 601 to 709 conversion is for ffmpeg so it retain correct chroma values so the resulting YUV has the same RGB values when decoded (I would skip that if the colors will not shift).
I don't need ffmpeg to do a color conversion to 2020, After Effects already done that much better.
It does not matter if you "label" the video 709 before you encode it, the image content IS in 2020 already done in After Effects and the only converter that has to know the color data inside the video/image is x265.
Similar if you take a screen shot of 2020 image, it will be in 709 when you paste it in a photo editor.

Thanks for the heads-up about the colormatrix filter being 8bit, I would really like to retain a high bitdepth across all the chain.
It looks like the colormatrix filer dithers down to 8bit but at this point I can't tell because the RGB to YUV conversion also dithers, maybe it is also in 8bit?
Dither on dither on dither, go figure at what point and what element did the down sampling...

[nevcairiel]

The "colorspace" filter simply doesn't work for me, it always stops ffmpeg with a red error "Unsupported input primaries 2 <unknown>"
-vf colorspace=bt709

You may need to specify the input colorspace, if the source file does not provide that information.
In fact, the source is RGB, is it not? If you specify the source color space, you should be able to influence the RGB->YUV conversion to use the correct colorspace from the get go, and avoid any need for a second conversion.

Something like this may work (untested):
ffmpeg.exe -framerate 24 -i "E:\Sequence\img-%%05d.png" -strict -1 -vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709,format=yuv420p10 "E:\x265\RAW.Y4M"



the 601 to 709 conversion is for ffmpeg so it retain correct chroma values so the resulting YUV has the same RGB values when decoded (I would skip that if the colors will not shift).
I don't need ffmpeg to do a color conversion to 2020, After Effects already done that much better.

Well the problem is that any such conversion might cut off out of gamut colors, so not sure I understand whats going on, but it sounds like its working around another problem that should be resolved at the root, instead of this way.
In general you should really strive to limit the number of conversions to the essentials, as any extra step could re-dither the signal or even just cut off data, like with the colormatrix filter.

[James Freeman]

Done some testing;

ffmpeg yuv420p10 | x265 input-depth 10
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/965b/fetf777a2b72ykyzg.jpg

ffmpeg yuv420p10 colormatrix=bt601:bt709 | x265 input-depth 10
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ab59/3evx4du6xrsnch3zg.jpg

ffmpeg yuv420p | x265 input-depth 8
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/583e/5uz1k47sfl2cykazg.jpg

ffmpeg yuv420p colormatrix=bt601:bt709 | x265 input-depth 8
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/583e/57zq9dnsrf3ku4gzg.jpg

Manipulated with Levels to clearly see the dithering, they all look smooth when displayed in madVR in 10bit without madVR dithering.
The only one that is not dithered and true 10bit is the first one.
BUT it appears that the colormatrix=bt601:bt709 dithering in the lowest bitdepth of the workflow and not always 8bit, 10bit in this case so I would assume it is safe to use this command.
The 8bit images are clearly dithered down to 8bit with or without the colormatrix=bt601:bt709 command.

What do you say Nev?

[nevcairiel]

The colormatrix filter supports nothing but 8-bit, so if you use it, the input gets converted to 8-bit before the colormatrix filter (with dithering), and potentially converted back to 10-bit after since thats what your output format asks for.
I trust reading the code over some image comparison any day. ;) Looking at the output of the ffmpeg command should also tell you which conversions it applies.

Like I mentioned above, it would be much better to try to control the RGB->YUV comparison to output the correct YUV material right away instead of chaining a 8-bit converter afterwards.

[James Freeman]

Something like this may work (untested):
ffmpeg.exe -framerate 24 -i "E:\Sequence\img-%%05d.png" -strict -1 -vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709 format=yuv420p10 "E:\x265\RAW.Y4M"

It works! The Chroma is spot on and no conversion down to 8bit!
Now the chroma is correct and the image is in 10bit undithered by ffmpeg or x265.
Perfect for test patterns.
Thank you.

For future readers:
The "-vf colormatrix=bt601:bt709" should be changed to "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020" because the colormatrix command is only 8bit and it dithers down to 8bit.
While the scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020 command bypasses any conversion while retains correct chroma values between RGB to YUV conversion.

[Jamaika]

How don't I add this command "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709" to output colormatrix is always BT601?
Strange, I was convinced that it is 'undef'.
Like I mentioned above, it would be much better to try to control the RGB->YUV comparison to output the correct YUV material right away instead of chaining a 8-bit converter afterwards.
Too bad that there is no preview. I understand that as I add "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020nc" and so will in the meantime conversion from RGB to BT709.

[James Freeman]

If anyone interested here is what the colormatrix=bt601:bt709 command does:
yuv444p is indeed only 8bit.

[auto-inserted scaler 0 @ 00000000006ed7e0] picking yuv444p out of 4 ref:rgb48le alpha:0
[auto-inserted scaler 0 @ 00000000006ed7e0] w:3840 h:2160 fmt:rgb48le sar:1/1 -> w:3840 h:2160 fmt:yuv444p sar:1/1 flags:0x4
[Parsed_colormatrix_0 @ 000000000033ada0] bt601 -> bt709
[auto-inserted scaler 1 @ 00000000003630a0] w:3840 h:2160 fmt:yuv444p sar:1/1 -> w:3840 h:2160 fmt:yuv420p10le sar:1/1 flags:0x4


scale=out_color_matrix=bt709:

[Parsed_scale_0 @ 000000000057a540] w:3840 h:2160 fmt:rgb48le sar:1/1 -> w:3840 h:2160 fmt:yuv420p10le sar:1/1 flags:0x4

[nevcairiel]

For future readers:
The "-vf colormatrix=bt601:bt709" should be changed to "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709" because the colormatrix command is only 8bit and it dithers down to 8bit.
While the scale=out_color_matrix=bt709 command bypasses any conversion while retains correct chroma values between RGB to YUV conversion.

The important part is to also include the format after it, so its told what to convert to, ie "-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709,format=yuv420p10"
Although depending on the order ffmpeg processes things, it might work by using -pix_fmt as well, although I personally would rather explicitly tell the converter what to do.

But always look at the output of the command what its doing. :)

[James Freeman]

But always look at the output of the command what its doing. :)
Yes indeed, I had to use "-v debug" to see what's going on.
From the debug log it appears that -pix_fmt is obeyed and format=yuv420p10 can be omitted.

BTW, to test bitdepth, chroma and dithering accuracy I export a smooth grey gradient and color steps 16bit RGB to EXR, then run it through the converison and encoding chain (ffmpeg piped into x265).
I run "--input-depth 10 --colorprim bt709 --transfer bt709 --colormatrix bt709" in x265 so nothing extraordinaire is going on, just a straight forward and quality 16bit RGB Full to 10bit 4:2:0 Limited.
Played the video with madVR and carefully tested with various techniques to see what's going on.
The final image is indeed Dithered 10bit from 16bit with correct chroma.

[James Freeman]

ffmpeg.exe -framerate 24 -i "E:\Sequence\img-%%05d.exr" -strict -1 -vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt709 format=yuv420p10 "E:\x265\RAW.Y4M"
What about chroma position?
It looks like the chroma is shifted 1 or 0.5 pixel to the left, top to bottom looks right.
This is from EXR to Y4M ffmpeg, without x265 yet.

sneaker_ger, nevcairiel
Please educate me about chroma position.

The right crosses are 1 pixel wide in 3840x2160.
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/96d4/n0svoyvqxt3i8afzg.jpg

[kolak]

If anyone interested here is what the colormatrix=bt601:bt709 command does:
yuv444p is indeed only 8bit.


scale=out_color_matrix=bt709:

For a long time there was a bug in RGB 10/16bit to any 10bit YUV based format through Rec.709 (some tint is introduced). There was some patch recently added, so maybe it's fixed now, but test it against e.g. After Effects.

[James Freeman]

No tint, all the RGB colors (printscreen from 4:2:0 10bit YUV to GIMP) are exactly the same in 8bit (255) before and after all the conversion steps.
I would love to test 10bit colors but AE doesn't play HEVC files in the workflow.

I wonder if there is a way to take a 16bit PNG screen shot from a 10bit video with MPC-HC and madVR?

[kolak]

Sounds like it's fixed, but if you want to test it you can use any other format, not h265.
I always test DPX and v210 and for last years there was always a problem. I will try it.

[James Freeman]

I found some ffmpeg "Location of chroma samples" in the code, and apparently I can change that (at the bottom):
https://ffmpeg.org/doxygen/3.0/pixfmt_8h_source.html
I'll try to find a way to implement this.

Also this post from sneaker_ger: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173047
So 2020 4:2:0 should be #3 (top left) like mpeg2 4:2:2.

EDIT:
According to ffmpeg debug log, EXR to DPX is "rgb48le to rgb48le" so no change to 4:2:0p10 at all.

[kolak]

Tried latest build on Mac and still not very accurate.

There are difference in RGB values even up to +-3, where AE v210 has max difference is +-1. Looks like ffmpeg rounding is not precise at all. I also tried "accurate_rnd", but no difference. This problem has been in ffmpeg for ages now.
Funny enough when you go from 10bit DPX to RGB48 and than to v210 errors are smaller. There is something odd with math inside ffmpeg for gbrp10le to yuv422p10le pixel format conversion.

[James Freeman]

Can you share your ffmpeg command line?

EDIT:
Okay got it, I needed to use "-vcodec v210", (I'm new at this, mind you);
Going from EXR to V210 AVI, the error is +1 maximum.
When going from DPX to V210 the error is +3 as you say, even the black is 1,0,2 RGB instead of 0,0,0.

Importing the EXR/DPX to V210.AVI to AE reveals more because I can color grab in 10bit and higher and compare to the original RGB.
DPX->V210: What should be 538 can be 547, 269 can be 276, 806 can be 815, so maximum +8 steps error in 10bit (or +2 in 8bit).
EXR->V210: 538 to 541, 269 to 270, 806 can be 810, maximum +4 steps error in 10bit or +1 step in 8bit.
Theses are maximum error and more often less.

Now the question is why do you use DPX instead of EXR if you know the error is bigger?
If ffmpeg can't handle DPX (gbrp10le) right or it has less bits for calculation, why still use it?

[kolak]

-vf 'scale=out_color_matrix=bt709, format=yuv422p10le' -sws_flags accurate_rnd -sws_dither none -c:v v210 out.mov

this is DPX to v210 MOV.

[kolak]

can you share your ffmpeg command line from EXR to V210 DPX?

EDIT:
Okay got it, I needed to use "-vcodec v210", (I'm new at this, mind you); Going from EXR to V210 AVI, the error are +1 maximum.

EXR is 16bit, so this is why. Problem seams to be with 10bit pixel formats, like gbrp10le, which is used for 10bit DPX.

[James Freeman]

Thanks, I figured things quickly.
Yes, it seems ffmpeg likes higher bitdepth for more accurate calculation.
If you work with people and move content between stages (intermediate), ask for EXR specifically.
EXR is smaller than DPX anyway, so use that.

[kolak]

It's ffmpeg problem with some of the conversion paths. They use many routes, some ones are heavily optimised for speed, others not etc. I don't need EXR in order to get proper v210, this is strictly ffmpeg problem. Other than this- big post houses have fixed workflows and something like "simple" change from DPX to EXR is not as easy as you think :)
EXRs can be bit smaller than DPX if you use compression (if not they are way bigger), but this is not so obvious and great. If you do use compression and deal with e.g. 4K EXRs than you loose a lot of CPU just for decoding. There are many factors, which may not be so obvious straight away.

[James Freeman]

Thanks for the clarification Kolac, information is always much appreciated.

Now how about this chroma subsampling:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1fb9/4chc7aiin8cpcf4zg.jpg

Looks like typical 4:2:0 MPEG-2 (Left between top and bottom).
How can I change it to Left-Top with ffmpeg?

[kolak]

Not easy or impossible at all with ffmpeg.
Vapourysynth (avisynth) probably is your best choice.

[James Freeman]

Hmmm, my goal was to go from After Effects to HEVC in 4:2:0 10bit, the fastest path with the smallest HDD space.
So far EXR to ffmpeg piped to x265 is the best way.

As far as I know about this (not much) Avisynth is a pain with high bit depths.
ImageSource (which supports EXR) is only 8bit.

Any suggestion?

[kolak]

Use vapoursynth and pipe to x265. VS should load EXR/DPX fine over ffmpeg import plugin.

[James Freeman]

Could you be kind and save me a couple of hours of googlin'?
EDIT:
On second thought, this is way over my head and free time.
I'll stick to MPEG-2 chroma position for a while, till ffmpeg is capable.
Thanks.

[kolak]

I'm not good enough.
Ask in vapoursynth section.

[surami]

Any suggestion?
Let's find somebody, who can extend the Advanced FrameServer code (https://sourceforge.net/p/advancedfs/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/) with 16bpc capabilities. :)

[James Freeman]

surmai, we need to receive EXR image sequence, convert to YUV 4:2:0 10bit TV range with Top-Left Chroma as specified to 2020 HDR, and pipe it to x265 without storing to HDD before the pipe, all in high bit depth.
If we accomplish that, we get close to UHD-BD encoding in the most efficient way.

[surami]

we need to receive EXR image sequence
a fake 16bpc YUV 444 or RGB AVI could do this as frameserver, that is how AFS is working, but at this time it serves only in 8bpc (RGB24, RGB32, etc.)

Top-Left Chroma as specified to 2020 HDR
There is --chromaloc (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/cli.html#cmdoption--chromaloc) command on the x265 side. Isn't that you are talking about?

Did you try scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020 instead of scale=out_color_matrix=bt709 on a bt2020 source?

[James Freeman]

I did not try yet --chromaloc if it changes the chroma location. I'll try.
--chromaloc: Specify chroma sample location for 4:2:0 inputs.
In case of ffmpeg the location is always "Left between top and bottom" or 0 in --chromaloc.
The x265 encoding will be wrong if --chromaloc 2 is set with MPEG-2 Y4M input.

Here is the official H265 Spec: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265-201504-I/en
Page 375 of pdf, 353 of book.
Maybe someone can clarify the whole chroma location issue.

EDIT:
A quick test shows that --chromaloc in x265 does not change the position of the chroma, from what I see it's just metadata to the decoder.
At least that is what I see.

[kolak]

If you want to make sure no conversion is happening than maybe it's good to use both in/out parameters:

"scale=in_color_matrix=bt2020:out_color_matrix=bt2020"

[nevcairiel]

Don't believe the nay-sayers, you can acurrately specify the chroma position for ffmpeg, the syntax is just not very straight forward since it actually supports any chroma position anyone could ever imagine, including odd subpixel positioning.

For the progessive 4:2:0 MPEG-2 position, extend your command like this (which is also the default, afaik):

-vf 'scale=out_color_matrix=bt709:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=128'


The position is specified in the luma grid / 256, so for a 4x4 grid in 4:2:0, 0:0 is center of the first pixel, 256:256 the last, and 0:128 is in the first column, between both rows - ie. mpeg2 position.
You can fiddle with the values to achieve any position you want, including the new bt2020 position. HEVC type 2 should be 0:0 from what I can tell (ffmpeg calls this AVCHROMA_LOC_TOPLEFT)

Note that software will likely still have issues with chroma type 2.

PS:
If your RGB is mastered as bt2020, why do you want to convert that to bt709 yuv, and not bt2020 yuv? That seems odd. Its a conversion to yuv either way, why introduce bt709 in there if that was not used anywhere before?

[James Freeman]

God bless you Nev.
I will try the :out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=128 line ASAP (like NOW).

EDIT:
IT WORKS!!!!!!!
:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=0 got me the chroma position that complies to BT.2020 spec, Hurrah Nevcairiel !
Now it is right to use --chromaloc 2 in x265, after this ffmpeg command.

[nevcairiel]

You convert from RGB to YUV - you are not going to "convert" the colorspace, but you need to actually pick one for the RGB->YUV conversion. If your original RGB is BT.2020, then your YUV should also be BT.2020, or weird things might happen.
If you perform a RGB -> YUV conversion, and expect a future YUV -> RGB conversion to look the same as the original, both conversions need to use the same colorspace. And you encode the YUV as BT.2020, then the original conversion should also be BT.2020, should it not?

Note that using bt2020 in -vf scale needs a rather recent ffmpeg, it was added there only mid of april.

In short, the important part is that in a RGB -> YUV -> RGB chain, both conversions use the same colorspace.

[nevcairiel]

As I said, I want no color space conversion at all by ffmpeg, but I want the colors to look right, the only option that does what I want is scale=out_color_matrix=bt709.
ffmpeg doesn't have to know if my image is 2020 or 709 or 601,, RGB values are RGB values.
I want only x265 to know that the image is in 2020 ST.2084.

But you have ffmpeg do the RGB -> YUV conversion, for that you need to tell it the *correct* YUV matrix you expect it to be afterwards. I don't get how that is so hard to understand.

[surami]

If your source is already in bt2020, why do you want to use bt709 in and out, just use what kolak wrote.

[nevcairiel]

There is no "in" matrix, since the input is RGB. Such a matrix only applies to YUV, not RGB. If you do RGB -> YUV, and then later YUV -> RGB, you need to use the same colormatrix in both conversions. So if you want your output HEVC file to be BT.2020, you also need to use BT.2020 for the RGB->YUV conversion, otherwise your YUV is BT.709, and NOT BT.2020.
Its as simple as that. If something looks wrong doing that, you should re-evaluate the other steps of your process, maybe something in the process isn't actually capable of displaying BT.2020 properly, or your ffmpeg is too old to actually support BT.2020.

But I've said this 10 times in this thread already. Don't try to fudge things until they "appear" right even if logically they are just plain wrong - chances are, they actually are wrong, and something else is screwing up as well.
Claiming all your data is BT.2020 and then using BT.709 for one conversion is just plain wrong, and if you don't realize this, we cannot help you.

From your posts, you seem to not really understand well how this entire process works, so instead of discarding any suggestions as "but my thing looks right", maybe be a bit more open to actually understanding whats going on.

[nevcairiel]

The answer is obvious, your Y4M has no matrix info, so during playback madVR assumes its BT.709. If you were to tell it that it actually is BT.2020 manually, since Y4M does not carry this information, it would look right. madVR has a shortcut to switch the matrix info.
Like I said, evaluate all the steps. You even have the madVR OSD on, read it, and it tells you that its assuming its BT.709 instead of BT.2020 ("best guess" means it guesses since the info is not available), which nicely explains why it looks wrong.

You just think everything is right because there are no obvious errors, but using BT.709 for the conversion is not correct.
Always make sure every single step is correct, otherwise two errors might cancel each other out like here, you think BT.709 looks correct because thats what madVR "guesses" for your Y4M file, but once its actually handled as proper BT.2020, it would suddenly look wrong afterall.

[nevcairiel]

I do not want ffmpeg to convert the matrix to 2020, I want to keep it 709; therefor I use 709.

This just makes no sense. Nothing in your chain ever was BT.709, so there is nothing to "keep it" as that. I just don't understand how it makes sense to you to even consider using BT.709 for anything in your entire process if its all supposed to be BT.2020. Oh well.

You clearly don't want to listen, so I leave you to your misconceptions, good luck.
Just don't pretend to create properly mastered HDR material and use that for reporting bugs.

[James Freeman]

Can I eat my hat? :o

Let's just say I have wasted your time (again) Nev, and polluted a bunch of pages on this lovely and informative thread.
I do have to specify out_color_matrix=bt2020 in ffmpeg so that x265 encodes it correctly.
I tested with "--colorprim bt2020 --transfer bt709 --colormatrix bt2020nc" in x265 to clearly see what I did not see before.
I had to switch madVR display to 2020 also to get the correct picture back.

I guess my learning curve is a little stubborn, no hard feelings all in good spirit.

Anyway, I cleaned the thread a bit, hope the good stuff are still in.

[kolak]

The references I find to the first parameter suggest this is just metadata set in the bitstream. The latter parameters sound like they would actually impact the image processing, but I have no idea what the correct values would be.

ffmpeg documentation always seems to be lacking in direct proportion to how much documentation would be useful...

Answer is there just needs a person with knowledge :)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1766645#post1766645

[kolak]

In short, the important part is that in a RGB -> YUV -> RGB chain, both conversions use the same colorspace.

Quite simple math, but this is the place where so many software/players fail badly :)

[kolak]

If your source is already in bt2020, why do you want to use bt709 in and out, just use what kolak wrote.

It actually needs just out_color_matrix, as source is RGB (as nevcairiel pointed).

[kolak]

Can I eat my hat? :o

Let's just say I have wasted your time (again) Nev, and polluted a bunch of pages on this lovely and informative thread.
I do have to specify out_color_matrix=bt2020 in ffmpeg so that x265 encodes it correctly.
I tested with "--colorprim bt2020 --transfer bt709 --colormatrix bt2020nc" in x265 to clearly see what I did not see before.
I had to switch madVR display to 2020 also to get the correct picture back.

I guess my learning curve is a little stubborn, no hard feelings all in good spirit.

Anyway, I cleaned the thread a bit, hope the good stuff are still in.

You may also want to use zscale instead of scale, as this filter may be higher quality? Not sure if it has all needed options.

[James Freeman]

But you have ffmpeg do the RGB -> YUV conversion, for that you need to tell it the *correct* YUV matrix you expect it to be afterwards. I don't get how that is so hard to understand.

I was lacking education about what Color Matrix actually is and how is it different than Color Primaries, and in consequence gave it no importance.

Y′CbCr signals (prior to scaling and offsets to place the signals into digital form) are called YPbPr, and are created from the corresponding gamma-adjusted RGB (red, green and blue) source using two defined constants KB and KR as follows:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/4/a/14ab0cc4c6dc23a84889b5da73930534.png

Where KB and KR are ordinarily derived from the definition of the corresponding RGB space. (The equivalent matrix manipulation is often referred to as the "color matrix".)


If I'm not mistaken (now) these KB and KR constants are what changing when selecting different "out_color_matrix" value in ffmpeg.
They do not affect Primary chromaticity points (as I though) but only part of the equation when converting from RGB to YCbCr and back.
The actual difference between 601, 701, 2020 KB and KR is small mathematically, but that's enough to skew the colors on the CbCr plane.

If I am mistaken this time please correct me (hope you didn't give up on me just yet :)).

Quite simple math, but this is the place where so many software/players fail badly :)
It's even worse when the person encoded the video used the wrong matrix... :p:D

[James Freeman]

You may also want to use zscale instead of scale, as this filter may be higher quality? Not sure if it has all needed options.
Isn't scale working in floating point too?
Can I specify chroma location as suggested by nevcairiel?

[surami]

I wrote to Ildar (the developer of AFS), maybe it's possible to extend the plugin with some simple code lines, so this way the frameserving could be 16bit capable instead of only 8bit. I don't know too much about this programing language, but as I see the source code in two files (PremiereFS.cpp (https://sourceforge.net/p/advancedfs/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/dfscPremiereOut/PremiereFS.cpp) and PremiereFS.h (https://sourceforge.net/p/advancedfs/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/dfscPremiereOut/PremiereFS.h)), the 8u could be rewritten to 16u and extra 16bit formats could be added on a very simple way, am I right or not? After that ffmpeg could be feeded with the fake AVI file.

Is here somebody with MSVS to try extending the code and compile it? I don't know, maybe Ildar will not see my message.

[kolak]

Isn't scale working in floating point too?
Can I specify chroma location as suggested by nevcairiel?

I don't think scale works with float.
I don't think you can specify chroma position with zscale :( There are no options for this.

[James Freeman]

Might as well post the link to the official place where all the white papers are:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Technical/TechnicalWhitePapers/General.aspx
* Blu-ray Disc Format - General 4th Edition (August 2015).

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Technical/TechnicalWhitePapers/BDROM.aspx
* BD ROM - Physical Format Specifications - 9th Edition (August 2015)
* BD ROM - Audio Visual Application Format Specifications - Version 3 (July 2015)
* BD ROM - CMP Export Specifications - Version 1.1 (August 2015)

The red one is where all the good stuff's in.

Here is the full official HEVC spec:
https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265

Select the latest one, there is a pdf.
Here you'll find the information that "BD ROM - Audio Visual Application Format Specifications" refers to.

[benwaggoner]

As for RGB->YUV conversion, both the input and output primaries and EOTF (electro optical transform function - like gamma or PQ) need to be specified, or match. If a RGB -> HDR-10 (Rec. 2020 primaries, D65 white point, and PQ curve EOTF) conversion assumes the source is sRGB, we'd expect that R'G'B'=255 would translate to a limited range value of 100 nits (peak white in Rec. 709) and thus a PQ curve Y'=509. And the Cb and Cr values would be constrained to the sRGB/709 subset of 2020.

Conversely, if a conversion makes the naïve assumption that the source and output have the same color primaries at EOTF (like sRGB->709), you'd get pretty crazy results. The image would come out way too bright in midtones, way oversaturated, and a reddish color shift. R'G'B'=255 would result in 10,000 nits, which no display in the world can actually show. Practical HDR-10 typically limits chroma to the P3 subset of 2020, and peak nits to 1000 (sometimes up to 4000).

For 2020 10-bit, you just get the enhanced color primaries but the same old gamma EOTF, so no extra dynamic range. And there's no defined white point or nit mapping. Also, no TV in the world can display all of the 2020 primaries, so you'll get clipping or some other tone mapping at the edges of the color volume.

This whole space requires new kinds of processing, and conversions that are quite difficult to do without scene-by-scene creative decisions. I think we're going to see the industry move away from integer-based processing altogether, and adopt floating-point linear light in order to have a common, flexible color space to combine and process stuff in. Going from SDR to HDR is qualitatively different, not just quantitatively.

[surami]

Sometimes I see weird white frames if I play back Sony's HDR sample on my PC.

https://866450b80d380784660ddd7c64fd2076c544dd7e.googledrive.com/host/0B9p82xjTYmAxVTNVSFlvWHNjMmM/doom9/sony_hdr_camp_white_frame.jpg

Is this because there are two encoded layers, a base layer + an enhancement layer?

There is a command --temporal-layers (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/cli.html#cmdoption--temporal-layers).

Is this the trick why Dolby Vision HDR videos are looking different (more detailed) than HDR10 videos?

Maybe there is a HDR10 layer (for only HDR10 capable TVs) + an enhancment layer for TVs, that are capable to decode the two layers simultaneously + merge them together and capable for more/less nits values or not?

[James Freeman]

I get that too with madVR.

Use this small soft to see the metadata: https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo.
Sony's clip encoded with wrong metadata of 0.5 nit instead of 1000nit peak.
The whole ST.2086 metadata of this clip is crap.

If I'm not mistaken, madVR uses the peak metadata, it clips anything above, and stretches the image to maximum white.
Most TVs do not use this ST.2086 metadata (for now), but simply map all bit words to ST.2084 EOTF in absolute way.

[benwaggoner]

Sometimes I see weird white frames if I play back Sony's HDR sample on my PC.

https://866450b80d380784660ddd7c64fd2076c544dd7e.googledrive.com/host/0B9p82xjTYmAxVTNVSFlvWHNjMmM/doom9/sony_hdr_camp_white_frame.jpg

Is this because there are two encoded layers, a base layer + an enhancement layer?
No. Only Dolby Vision does that, which was really a legacy mode for when 8-bit decoders were all there were. Dolby Vision now supports a couple single-layer 10-bit modes as well.

Sony TVs don't support Dolby Vision in any case, but HDR-10. HDR-10 is always single layer.

There is a command --temporal-layers (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/cli.html#cmdoption--temporal-layers).

Is this the trick why Dolby Vision HDR videos are looking different (more detailed) than HDR10 videos?
That command is for temporal scalability. Like encoding 60p source with a backwards-compatible 30p base layer and an enhancement layer that can then add every other frame back in. The enhancement layer is just extra non-reference b-frames with timestamps in between the base layer's. It's cool, but entirely orthogonal to HDR or spatial quality.

Maybe there is a HDR10 layer (for only HDR10 capable TVs) + an enhancment layer for TVs, that are capable to decode the two layers simultaneously + merge them together and capable for more/less nits values or not?
There are lots of technologies being worked on to make backwards-compatible streams that can play in either HDR or SDR. None are in the wild yet other than Dolby Vision. And they're all targeting broadcast bandwidth constrained systems like cable/sat/terrestrial. For IP delivery, just delivering a SDR or HDR stream as appropriate to the device is much simpler.

[surami]

@Ben, thanks for clarifying things.
@James, you can see the same info already in the latest nightly MPC-HC, Shift + F10.
@nevcairiel, could you check the LAVFilter with a 12bit RGBA Cineform footage, I can't open them with the latest one.

[kolak]

12bit Cineform requires very latest libraries.

[James Freeman]

@James, you can see the same info already in the latest nightly MPC-HC, Shift + F10.

Thanks for this.

Still, I don't understand why TVs don't use the ST.2086 metadata (mastering display primary chromaticity ponts, peak brightness, minimum black level, MaxCLL, MadFALL), but simply map the bits to ST.2084 EOTF.
That's why the sony HDR test video plays without problems on all TVs ignoring the wrong 2086 metadata.

I think that the ST.2086 metadata is for extreme case corrections if the mastered video was done on a completely different mastering display that has no similar behavior to the consumer display.
We all know that the ST.2084 EOTF is static bit=luminance curve and has to behave exactly the same on all displays, so a logical question would be why even use ST.2086 metadata with a ST.2084 EOTF?

The mastering display color volume and peak luminance metadata is ignored because it's all in ST.2084 2020 container anyway, the TV just clips/compresses anything that's outside its own color gamut and luminance according to bit values not metadata.
maxCLL is there to avoid automatic brightness limiting (ABL) of the TV because of power limitation and the possibility of overheating and burning of the backlight LED; on secondary importance is predictable picture luminance.
maxFALL as maxCLL is nothing but power constraints to the mastering engineer because the consumer TV would explode above 200W (figuratively speaking), both do not actually have to be specified as a metadata but followed when grading/mastering.
MaxFALL indicates the maximum value of the frame average light level, in units of 1 cd/m2, in entire playback sequence of the BDMV HDR video streams in the PlayList.
To prevent overheating of the TV set obviously.
But will the TV actually lower the average light level to not overheat?, that is the question.
If it actually does something it'll break the precise ST.2084 curve.

In this Sony HDR Camp clip all the 2086 metadata is perfectly useless and should destroy the picture if applied for anything (like in madVR), yet users say it looks excellent on their HDR TVs.
It means that the 2086 metadata is completely ignored by TVs for now.

[benwaggoner]

Thanks for this.

Still, I don't understand why TVs don't use the ST.2086 metadata (mastering display primary chromaticity ponts, peak brightness, minimum black level, MaxCLL, MadFALL), but simply map the bits to ST.2084 EOTF.
Some TVs do use that information, but vary in how they do it. Generally dimmer TVs will use the metadata more, because they can't decode the full 1000 nits and P3 color volume of typical HDR-10.

That's why the sony HDR test video plays without problems on all TVs ignoring the wrong 2086 metadata.
TVs may also use sanity checks. Given the code values in the fames are going to be >>MaxCLL, and that 1 nit would almost never be used, perhaps out of range values or ignored, or values that wildly vary from the actual range of the content.

I think that the ST.2086 metadata is for extreme case corrections if the mastered video was done on a completely different mastering display that has no similar behavior to the consumer display.
We all know that the ST.2084 EOTF is static bit=luminance curve and has to behave exactly the same on all displays, so a logical question would be why even use ST.2086 metadata with a ST.2084 EOTF?
Well, 2084 is nits assuming 10 nit ambient light. So I'd argue that it's not entirely normative, and that a TV could appropriately use ambient light detection and adjust tone mapping when ambient light isn't close to 10 nits. This is analogous to Rec. 709 (SDR) which is nominally 100 nits peak with 10 nit ambient light.

Also, lots of TVs aren't 1000 nits. Lots are less, some are more. The TVs that are less need to roll off at the top of the curve to avoid clipping. The TVs that can do more might do so if ambient light is higher. Also, 2084 can go up to 10,000 nits. While most HDR-10 mastered content uses a 1000 nit peak, there is stuff out there at 2000 or 4000 nits mastered on Dolby's high-end grading monitors.

The mastering display color volume and peak luminance metadata is ignored because it's all in ST.2084 2020 container anyway, the TV just clips/compresses anything that's outside its own color gamut and luminance according to bit values not metadata.
The 2086 metadata is also there for cases where an external device is decoding, and so the display doesn't have access to the bitstream level metadata. HDMI 2.0a will pass those parameters from player to display.

maxCLL is there to avoid automatic brightness limiting (ABL) of the TV because of power limitation and the possibility of overheating and burning of the backlight LED; on secondary importance is predictable picture luminance.
maxFALL as maxCLL is nothing but power constraints to the mastering engineer because the consumer TV would explode above 200W (figuratively speaking), both do not actually have to be specified as a metadata but followed when grading/mastering.

To prevent overheating of the TV set obviously.
But will the TV actually lower the average light level to not overheat?, that is the question.
If it actually does something it'll break the precise ST.2084 curve.
For displays that do 1000 nits peak, we shouldn't assume they can do 1000 nits over a whole white frame! The peak measurements are generally for a relatively small patch of the screen, like 10%. I think every existing TV would display a white frame coded at 1000 nits at less than 1000 nits. For which both the EPA and your eyes thank you.

In this Sony HDR Camp clip all the 2086 metadata is perfectly useless and should destroy the picture if applied for anything (like in madVR), yet users say it looks excellent on their HDR TVs.
It means that the 2086 metadata is completely ignored by TVs for now.
TVs will look at this data, and as we move to PC-based playback, where 300-400 nits peak is more reasonable today, I would expect that the metadata would be useful if properly coded. There is also SMPTE 2084-40 in progress, which is an open-standard dynamic metadata. Think of MaxFALL and MaxCLL that can vary by shot/scene instead of fixed per title, plus other useful information like Min and Mean light levels.

[surami]

No. Only Dolby Vision does that, which was really a legacy mode for when 8-bit decoders were all there were. Dolby Vision now supports a couple single-layer 10-bit modes as well.

That command is for temporal scalability. Like encoding 60p source with a backwards-compatible 30p base layer and an enhancement layer that can then add every other frame back in. The enhancement layer is just extra non-reference b-frames with timestamps in between the base layer's. It's cool, but entirely orthogonal to HDR or spatial quality.


I just run through the Dolby Vision white paper (v2) (http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-white-paper.pdf). They are mentioning two layers, a base layer + an enhancement layer + metadata (page 11). On the x265 command line options page: "A decoder may chose to drop the enhancement layer and only decode and display the base layer slices."

It can be, that Sony HDR sample has been encoded this way, so that's why we see sometimes the "weird", let's say now enhancement frames and maybe that's why more fps is needed (Joe Kane also mentioned, that more fps is needed.). If madVR or LAVsplitter (I don't know how this softwares are working exactly) or hardware decoder catches the base layer (frames) we see the baselayer, if not we see the enhancment layer (frames). But there are systems like Dolby Vision and who knows what other systems, that can merge the two layers together. Like you make a picture in Photoshop with two layers, there is the base layer and on the top you put an enhancment layer or difference layer (overlay, multiply, etc.) with opacity (difference between the SDR and HDR picture or HDR10 and Dolby Vision). 2 or 4 extra bits are enough for the enhancment.

Not to forget that Cineform 12bit RGBA became a standard intermediate, it can deliver the two layers RGB as base layer + A as enhancment/difference layer.

I'm just thinking loudly, maybe I'm wrong and nothing is right.

[surami]

I got bored to copy all the time the new encoded stuff to an USB 3.0 stick and put into my TV's USB 3.0 interface for testing, so I decided to solve this somehow. I found a device called "DIGITUS USB 3.0 Sharing Switch", I will order next week, hopefully it will work. :)

[kolak]

You should be able to stream these files to your TV using some DLNA server. No need to copy them to USB.

[benwaggoner]

I just run through the Dolby Vision white paper (v2) (http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-white-paper.pdf). They are mentioning two layers, a base layer + an enhancement layer + metadata (page 11). On the x265 command line options page: "A decoder may chose to drop the enhancement layer and only decode and display the base layer slices."
Yes, when using a backwards-compatible base layer, the base layer will be SDR. Note that there are a lot more profiles since then, with both backwards and non-backwards compatible base layers, and single layer as well.

It can be, that Sony HDR sample has been encoded this way...
It wasn't.

I'm just thinking loudly, maybe I'm wrong and nothing is right.
I think the file just has bad metadata. A quick glance with MediaInfo should be helpful.

[surami]

You should be able to stream these files to your TV using some DLNA server. No need to copy them to USB.

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, when using a backwards-compatible base layer, the base layer will be SDR. Note that there are a lot more profiles since then, with both backwards and non-backwards compatible base layers, and single layer as well.


... and in case Dolby Vision videos, the base layer is HDR10, so you can decode it with simple HDR10 capable TV sets, without Dolby Vision mechanism.

But it can be that there is a case where SDR + enh. nr. 1 = HDR10 + enh. nr. 2 = Dolby Vision, but maybe this is too much data for one disc.


I think the file just has bad metadata. A quick glance with MediaInfo should be helpful.

Yes it can be, James also mentioned this, there is the info. But then how could I watch the goodlooking colorful video too? It should be a video with two layers and maybe the metadata is correct for the enhancement layer.

Video
ID : 1
Format : HEVC
Format/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile : Main 10@L5.1@High
Codec ID : hvc1
Codec ID/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration : 2mn 7s
Bit rate : 75.6 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 123 Mbps
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.152
Stream size : 1.12 GiB (100%)
Encoded date : UTC 2016-02-03 07:59:49
Tagged date : UTC 2016-02-03 08:01:32
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : SMPTE ST 2084
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primar : R: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, G: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, B: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, White point: x=1.000000 y=1.000000
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.1000 cd/m2, max: 0.5000 cd/m2

[nevcairiel]

Yes it can be, James also mentioned this, there is the info. But then how could I watch the goodlooking colorful video too? It should be a video with two layers and maybe the metadata is correct for the enhancement layer.


Mastering display color primar : R: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, G: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, B: x=1.000000 y=1.000000, White point: x=1.000000 y=1.000000
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.1000 cd/m2, max: 0.5000 cd/m2

What makes you think there actually is two layers?
And this mastering metadata is definitely absolutely wrong.

[surami]

Yes, I saw that mastering metadata too. What makes me think there are two layers is the following, sometimes I can see the colorfull goodlooking video, sometimes the weird white thing + the high fps, it's random when the different cases are happening. I've a GTX 960 in my computer, so what causes I don't know, video card, LAVSplitter, madVR, MPC-HC or two layer video?

[James Freeman]

It's madVR.
Please update to 90.18, no more colorfull goodness with wrong metadata.

[surami]

I tried, white stuff here also and if I update my video card driver to the latest one, then the playback is colorfull, but stutters.

[surami]

I encoded a new experiment file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9p82xjTYmAxZXlBZk90REM4LUE/view?usp=sharing) (183 MB) straight from a Cineform RGBA 12bit MOV. The same video, what I uploaded last year but now this is real 10bit, because I hadn't piped through the Advanced FrameServer (RGB24) + AviSynth+ (BT.709 -> BT.2020 conversion).

In AE, the settings were the same:
sRGB, 32bit composition
+ Lumetri Color; White: -15
+ Compress; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Shadow/Highlight; 10/20
+ Color Balance; Shadow Blue Balance: -10
+ Expand; Gain: 1, Gamma: 0,9
+ Color Profile Converter; In: sRGB, Out: Rec2020 ST.2084, Intent: Perceptual
+ HDR Highlight Compression: 100%
+ Unsharp Mask; Amount: 20, Radius: 50

and the combined ffmpeg + x265 command line (thanks for the chroma position and for the out color matrix):
ffmpeg.exe -nostats -i "input.mov" -strict -1 -vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=0,format=yuv420p10 -f yuv4mpegpipe - |
x265_10bit.exe - --y4m --uhd-bd --crf 13 --tune grain --colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc
--master-display "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)" --max-cll "1000,400" --output "output.hevc"
pause

and now I used the L-SMASH muxer + the mp4box together:
muxer.exe -i output.hevc?[fps=25] -o output.mp4
mp4box.exe -add output.mp4 -brand isom -new output_final.mp4
del output.mp4
ren output_final.mp4 output.mp4
pause

Till now this is the best what I can do and it looks good on my PC and on my TV too.

[James Freeman]

Looks Good!
Well done.

[surami]

Thanks James.

I just found an interesting LUT application (https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/) (generating, analysing and previewing) by Ben Turley, maybe it will be usefull for someone, it supports PQ and HLG too.

[pp300]

Is there any tools to calculate maxCLL and maxFALL volume ?

I trying to make a playable HDR video after I greaded in Davinci Resolve, but seems like there isn't any tool to measure them.

Now I just filed in random number, but it seems to effect madVR output siginal.

[surami]

There is a very good post about "HDR, Resolve, and Creative Grading (http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3548)" by Alexis Van Hurkman.

[d3rd3vil]

Hoho!

So I've just tested some 4k x264 and 4k x265 stuff with my 970GTX and MPC via DXVA2 (copy-back) and Enhanced Video Renderer and its working. For example that HDR Sony Camp demo runs perfectly fine:
http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

So what exactly should not work? I mean real HDR/Dolby Vision doesnt work thx to HDMI 2.0 (missing a.....) :(
But other 4k 10bit should work?!

Besides the Sony Camp demo is x264 or x265? What kind of stuff could I test?
Cause if it's all working then the only thing missing would be HDR/Dolby Vision for an OLED TV someday ^^

[kolak]

As far as I understand Dolby Vision will work only with TVs which have Dolby chip: Vizio (and I think new LG TVs also will have it). Other manufactures seams to be not that keen to pay Dolby licensing fees:)

[d3rd3vil]

Yeah well so far ^^. I am heading in the OLED direction anyway. But the 970GTX with HDMI 2.0 wont be able to send it, right? 2.0a needed which could be upgraded via software update but that wont happen.

[kolak]

2.0->2.0a will be just a firmware update, so it can be done if Nvidia decides to.

[d3rd3vil]

And Nvidia sure says no thx to GTX 1070/1080 and they want to sell it big time. Or maybe after a few months/years they decide to do it who knows. I doubt it.

[huhn]

i doubt they are going to firmware downgrade to HDMI 2.0a they are already using HDMI 2.0b.

[d3rd3vil]

Yeah well that upgrade talk was about the 970/980 series with 2.0 (no a or b)! The 1070/1080 have 2.0b with everything a man can dream of :)

[huhn]

MAXWELL is HDR ready too.

but we are missing software that can send this info to the GPU and maybe windows 10 and the GPU driver doesn't have the API for this yet.

HDMI 2.0B is NOT a new feature: http://i.imgur.com/02A3RzQ.png

[nevcairiel]

2.0b does not include new features though, its practically 2.0a with a few editorial changes in the specification.
The next big thing will be 2.1 with dynamic HDR metadata support.

[d3rd3vil]

Dolby Vision is already dynamic with 2.0a, isnt it? As todays DV TVs only have 2.0....
I don't want to see that dynamic HDR stuff with 2.1 that would be a desaster for graphicscards, TVs and mediaplayers.

I'd be happy with 4k@60hz and maybe 10bit 4:4:4 via HDMI 2.0 from my 970GTX. Maybe that will work. HDR-DV would be the next step...

[benwaggoner]

Dolby Vision is already dynamic with 2.0a, isnt it? As todays DV TVs only have 2.0

All HDR TVs support 2.0a. That's required to transmit the HDR metadata.

[huhn]

I'd be happy with 4k@60hz and maybe 10bit 4:4:4 via HDMI 2.0 from my 970GTX. Maybe that will work. HDR-DV would be the next step...

HDMI 2.0 is to slow for that. they need a new spec with higher speed to send UHD@60 4:4:4 10 bit.

[kolak]

Yes, HDMI people are bit slow.
DisplayPort is getting good bandwidth.

[d3rd3vil]

What is too slow? HDMI 1.4 is enough for 4k@30hz. HDMI 2.0 should be enough for 4k@60hz and 10 bit because 2.0a is only a software update and that IS enough for 4k@60hz with 10bit and HDR/Dolby Vision.

[huhn]

the bandwidth of HDMI 2.0 is not enough for UHD@60 fps 4:4:4 10 bit

high bit deep for 60 fps is only available with 4:2:2 or 4:2:0.

here are the specs: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx

DP is the real deal.

[benwaggoner]

HDMI 2.0 is to slow for that. they need a new spec with higher speed to send UHD@60 4:4:4 10 bit.
4:4:4 at 3840x2160 would be crazy overkill. 2160p 4:2:0 has all the chroma detail as 1080p 4:4:4, which I don't think I've ever heard suggested is inadequate.

I am having trouble of even thinking of a pathological test pattern that would show visible difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 on UHD without being so close to the screen that the entire image wouldn't be visible at once without physically relocating head position.

[huhn]

4:4:4 at 3840x2160 would be crazy overkill. 2160p 4:2:0 has all the chroma detail as 1080p 4:4:4, which I don't think I've ever heard suggested is inadequate.

I am having trouble of even thinking of a pathological test pattern that would show visible difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 on UHD without being so close to the screen that the entire image wouldn't be visible at once without physically relocating head position.

try this test pattern:
http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

the color is totally changed with chroma subsampling.
no question it is an extreme example.

4:2:0 UHD screen with red text on a black background is just FHD if this looks the same as 4:4:4 than UHD is useless in the first place.

even this image: http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee322/Marathongman/LOVERS%20OF%20RED/quote-shout-or-shutup-black-background-red-text.png (the first image i have found on google) displayed unscaled centered on my UHD screen show very visible artifacts. of cause they are amplified by the really bad chroma sup sampling from my nvidia card. but this image doesn't have the fines details too.

[benwaggoner]

try this test pattern:
http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

the color is totally changed with chroma subsampling.
no question it is an extreme example.
And when I output and compress it as 4:2:0, the problems almost entirely go away.

If the example content for problems with subsampling is fixed by subsampling, I'm not sure what the problem is :).

Also, that is 1080p, not UHD. 4:2:0 UHD will have the same chroma detail as that file anyway.

[huhn]

And when I output and compress it as 4:2:0, the problems almost entirely go away.

If the example content for problems with subsampling is fixed by subsampling, I'm not sure what the problem is :).

Also, that is 1080p, not UHD. 4:2:0 UHD will have the same chroma detail as that file anyway.

i know the image isn't UHD. but that doesn't matter if you watch it centered unscaled in a latterbox.

and as you already see without subsampling the image should be pink and only the 4.4:4 should be purple.

[d3rd3vil]

Well ok then. No idea how brutal the difference is then. Gotta test that in the next months with an 4k OLED if 4k@60hz with 10bit and 4:2:2 is good enough or not :)
The 4k testfiles even with HDR are usually in 4:2:2 as far as I know. Maybe its good enough :)

[huhn]

if the chroma test image is used correctly the difference is always visible.

that's why i added this other image. red colored text on a black background is at least realistic could be in a source unlike a 1 to 1 pixel chessboard pattern.

[nevcairiel]

They key point is that video content is originally nearly always 4:2:0, or at best 4:2:2, so a 4:2:2 transmission doesn't lose any information when using it exclusively for video.
Gaming or desktop usage is another thing entirely, but those generally don't benefit from 10-bit (yet) either way.

[benwaggoner]

Well ok then. No idea how brutal the difference is then. Gotta test that in the next months with an 4k OLED if 4k@60hz with 10bit and 4:2:2 is good enough or not :)
The 4k testfiles even with HDR are usually in 4:2:2 as far as I know. Maybe its good enough :)
I am not aware of anyone doing UHD or HDR distribution in anything other than 4:2:0, which is all that is supported by HEVC version 1, and the Main and Main 10 profiles.

[huhn]

the biggest problem for video right now it that we can't send 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 with out converting it. the proper YCbCr - RGB converted source get's butchered by the GPU.

[d3rd3vil]

Ok then 4k@60hz with 4:2:2 is just fine I am good with that :)

[d3rd3vil]

Just tried the Elysium and football clip from here:
http://4ksamples.com/

And THIS doesnt work at all. Not with DXVA or with the CPU power. It is stuttering nonstop. Damn thats what you need a 1070/1080 for, apparently. Anyone who has a card like that and can test these files? :)

[surami]

Stay on topic guys.

[surami]

Any "new" HDR workflow?

[benwaggoner]

Any "new" HDR workflow?
Higher bit depths and sampling are used in the content creation workflows, absolutely. But all the industry UHD and HDR specs are 4:2:0. 4K Blu-ray doesn't support 4:2:2. Most devices don't.

Really, 4:2:2 was invented for interlaced content, so chroma samples wouldn't have to span fields. It wasn't ever intended for, or truly needed for, encoding progressive moving image content. Decent YUV 4:2:0 to RGB 4:4:4 converters make even the worst-case test patterns look a lot better; nearest neighbor with CUE was pretty bad!

Anyway, the ship has left the harbor for consumer formats for 4:2:0. At least we have 10-bit HEVC as pretty much universal for UHD, so we've finally broken the stranglehold of 8-bit.

If we start seeing native 12-bit HEVC for Dolby Vision etcetera someday, that might be an inflection point where going beyond 4:2:0 could happen. But really, color subsampling is behind a lot of other priorities in industry and standards groups.

[groucho86]

Hi everyone,
I posted this question on the Blackmagic forum, but I'm hoping someone on this forum might know more.

I have an OpenEXR sequence rendered out from Resolve (12.5) using their ACES workflow with the P3D60 PQ (1000 nits) ODT.

In Resolve, we're reviewing color simultaneously on the Sony X300 and the LG OLED65G6P and colors match very well.

On Mac OSX 10.9.5, this is my terminal command:

ffmpeg -nostats -start_number 00086400 -framerate 24000/1001 -i "/Volumes/TEST/p3d60/p3d60-%08d.exr" -strict -1 \\
-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=0,format=yuv420p10 -f yuv4mpegpipe - | \\
x265 - --y4m --uhd-bd --crf 13 --tune grain --colorprim bt2020 --transfer smpte-st-2084 --colormatrix bt2020nc \\
--master-display "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(16085,16885)L(10000000,1)" --max-cll "1000,400" --output "/Volumes/TEST/hevc/test.hevc"

Terminal output:
ffmpeg version 3.1.3 Copyright (c) 2000-2016 the FFmpeg developers
built with Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn)
configuration: --prefix=/usr/local/Cellar/ffmpeg/3.1.3 --enable-shared --enable-pthreads --enable-gpl --enable-version3 --enable-hardcoded-tables \\
--enable-avresample --cc=clang --host-cflags= --host-ldflags= --enable-opencl --enable-libx264 --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libxvid \\
--enable-libfreetype --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx --enable-libass --enable-ffplay --enable-libfdk-aac --enable-libopus --enable-libx265 \\
--disable-lzma --enable-nonfree --enable-vda
libavutil 55. 28.100 / 55. 28.100
libavcodec 57. 48.101 / 57. 48.101
libavformat 57. 41.100 / 57. 41.100
libavdevice 57. 0.101 / 57. 0.101
libavfilter 6. 47.100 / 6. 47.100
libavresample 3. 0. 0 / 3. 0. 0
libswscale 4. 1.100 / 4. 1.100
libswresample 2. 1.100 / 2. 1.100
libpostproc 54. 0.100 / 54. 0.100
Input #0, image2, from '/Volumes/TEST/p3d60/p3d60-%08d.exr':
Duration: 00:00:02.96, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
Stream #0:0: Video: exr, rgb48le, 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 23.98 tbr, 23.98 tbn, 23.98 tbc
[yuv4mpegpipe @ 0x7fe351808600] Using AVStream.codec to pass codec parameters to muxers is deprecated, use AVStream.codecpar instead.
[yuv4mpegpipe @ 0x7fe351808600] Warning: generating non standard YUV stream. Mjpegtools will not work.
Output #0, yuv4mpegpipe, to 'pipe:':
Metadata:
encoder : Lavf57.41.100
Stream #0:0: Video: wrapped_avframe, yuv420p10le, 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 23.98 fps, 23.98 tbn, 23.98 tbc
Metadata:
encoder : Lavc57.48.101 wrapped_avframe
Stream mapping:
Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (exr (native) -> wrapped_avframe (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
y4m [info]: 1920x1080 fps 24000/1001 i420p10 sar 1:1 unknown frame count
raw [info]: output file: /Volumes/TEST/hdr/hevc/p3d60-regxxxx.hevc
x265 [info]: HEVC encoder version 0.0
x265 [info]: build info [Mac OS X][clang 6.0.0][64 bit] 10bit
x265 [info]: using cpu capabilities: MMX2 SSE2Fast SSSE3 SSE4.2
x265 [warning]: Rc Grain removes qp fluctuations caused by aq/cutree, Disabling aq,cu-tree
x265 [warning]: uhd-bd: Turning on repeat-headers
x265 [warning]: uhd-bd: Turning off open GOP
x265 [warning]: uhd-bd: keyframeMin is always 1
x265 [warning]: uhd-bd: reducing keyframeMax to 24
x265 [warning]: Specifying a decoder level with constant rate factor rate-control requires
x265 [warning]: enabling VBV with vbv-bufsize=160000kb vbv-maxrate=160000kbps. VBV outputs are non-deterministic!
x265 [info]: Main 10 profile, Level-5.1 (High tier)
x265 [info]: Thread pool created using 16 threads
x265 [info]: frame threads / pool features : 5 / wpp(17 rows)
x265 [info]: Coding QT: max CU size, min CU size : 64 / 8
x265 [info]: Residual QT: max TU size, max depth : 32 / 1 inter / 1 intra
x265 [info]: ME / range / subpel / merge : hex / 57 / 2 / 2
x265 [info]: Keyframe min / max / scenecut : 1 / 24 / 40
x265 [info]: Lookahead / bframes / badapt : 20 / 4 / 2
x265 [info]: b-pyramid / weightp / weightb : 1 / 1 / 0
x265 [info]: References / ref-limit cu / depth : 3 / on / on
x265 [info]: Rate Control / qCompress : CRF-13.0 / 0.60
x265 [info]: VBV/HRD buffer / max-rate / init : 160000 / 160000 / 0.900
x265 [info]: tools: rd=3 psy-rd=4.00 signhide tmvp strong-intra-smoothing
x265 [info]: tools: lslices=6 deblock

I then create an MP4 with:
mp4box -add test.hevc -new test.mp4

The mp4 gets copied to a thumb drive. When I play it back on the LG, the image appears darker. Oranges are almost red.

I feel there's an incorrect conversion happening, but I don't know if it's being baked in into the hevc or if it's the HDR metadata (SEI info) that is wrong.

Any insight would be much appreciated!

[Jamaika]

Dear user, there is no such features "scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020,format=yuv420p10" on the ffmpeg for 10-bit and higher. FFmpeg always converts to the 8bit BT601 and then is output 10bit BT2020. :(
What was the range in the file "p3d60-%08d.exr"?

[groucho86]

Reading previous post in this thread, I thought recent builds of FFMPEG supported this:

You convert from RGB to YUV - you are not going to "convert" the colorspace, but you need to actually pick one for the RGB->YUV conversion. If your original RGB is BT.2020, then your YUV should also be BT.2020, or weird things might happen.
If you perform a RGB -> YUV conversion, and expect a future YUV -> RGB conversion to look the same as the original, both conversions need to use the same colorspace. And you encode the YUV as BT.2020, then the original conversion should also be BT.2020, should it not?

Note that using bt2020 in -vf scale needs a rather recent ffmpeg, it was added there only mid of april.

In short, the important part is that in a RGB -> YUV -> RGB chain, both conversions use the same colorspace.

What was the range in the file "p3d60-%08d.exr"?
Not sure if you're asking frame range or color space range hehe.
170 frames, and I believe Resolve is working in the P3 color space (within Rec.2020).

[benwaggoner]

Dear user, there is no such features "scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020,format=yuv420p10" on the ffmpeg for 10-bit and higher. FFmpeg always converts to the 8bit BT601 and then is output 10bit BT2020. :(
What was the range in the file "p3d60-%08d.exr"?
Yes, the only way I've been able to use ffmpeg in HDR workflows is to have HDR-10 input (PQ EOTF + Rec 2020 primaries) in the source, and then limit ffmpeg to decoding, scaling, cropping etcetera. No color space conversion or any filters that touch luma or chroma values, because they assume Gamma, not PQ, and will mess things up terribly. So output and input are 2020/PQ but ffmpeg doesn't have any idea of that.

[Jamaika]

Not sure if you're asking frame range or color space range hehe.
Of course, the color range. You should always define.

[groucho86]

Ben, is there anything in my command that doesn't look right to you?

[benwaggoner]

Ben, is there anything in my command that doesn't look right to you?
I've never tried to include the color space in the scaling. It looks like you want SMPTE 2084 "PQ curve" luma, which isn't the same as Rec. 2020 luma.

If your OpenEXR sources are already in HDR-10 space, I'd just leave the color_matrix out since there aren't any color space transforms needed. If it isn't in HDR-10 space, ffmpeg needs to get 2084 support.

[Parabola]

Yes, the only way I've been able to use ffmpeg in HDR workflows is to have HDR-10 input (PQ EOTF + Rec 2020 primaries) in the source, and then limit ffmpeg to decoding, scaling, cropping etcetera. No color space conversion or any filters that touch luma or chroma values, because they assume Gamma, not PQ, and will mess things up terribly. So output and input are 2020/PQ but ffmpeg doesn't have any idea of that.

Hmm, scaling touches luma and chroma values and, worse than assuming gamma, scaling in FFmpeg assumes linear light! For most applications of SDR this is generally accepted as OK. I wonder whether the aliasing and other artifacts of cheap linear scaling are as acceptable for HDR. See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172094

[Maystone]

Apologies if this is a derail but I've attempted to read and re-read this thread many times and am pretty sure this hasn't come up, but why not encode all in ffmpeg? Would it have something to do with the current convo on the shortcomings of ffmpeg and colorspace? Can someone tell me why the below command would not work to produce exactly what the OP wanted? (and yeah first post, ahem)

Input= 16bit 4k HDR10 graded tiffs in rec.2020

ffmpeg -threads 16 -r 24000/1001 -start_number 0085069 -i 'hdr10_targ5_test_3.%07d.tiff' \\
-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=0,format=yuv420p10 -c:v libx265 -preset medium \\
-x265-params crf=12:colorprim=bt2020:transfer=smpte-st-2084:colormatrix=bt2020nc:master-display="G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)":max-cll="1000,400" -an /output/test.mp4

OUTPUT:
ffmpeg version N-81451-g8a78fc5 Copyright (c) 2000-2016 the FFmpeg developers
built with gcc 4.8 (Ubuntu 4.8.4-2ubuntu1~14.04.3)
configuration: --enable-libopenjpeg --prefix=/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build \\
--pkg-config-flags=--static --extra-cflags=-I/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build/include \\
--extra-ldflags=-L/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build/lib --bindir=/home/CORP/someone/bin --enable-gpl --disable-libass \\
--enable-libfdk-aac --enable-libfreetype --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libopus --enable-libtheora --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx \\
--enable-libx264 --enable-libx265 --enable-nonfree
libavutil 55. 29.100 / 55. 29.100
libavcodec 57. 54.100 / 57. 54.100
libavformat 57. 48.100 / 57. 48.100
libavdevice 57. 0.102 / 57. 0.102
libavfilter 6. 54.100 / 6. 54.100
libswscale 4. 1.100 / 4. 1.100
libswresample 2. 1.100 / 2. 1.100
libpostproc 54. 0.100 / 54. 0.100
Input #0, image2, from 'hdr10_targ5_test.%07d.tiff':
Duration: 00:00:01.96, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
Stream #0:0: Video: tiff, rgb48le, 3840x2160, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc
x265 [info]: HEVC encoder version 2.0+16-215eedc9ecc0
x265 [info]: build info [Linux][GCC 4.8.4][64 bit] 10bit
x265 [info]: using cpu capabilities: MMX2 SSE2Fast SSSE3 SSE4.2 AVX
x265 [info]: Main 10 profile, Level-5 (Main tier)
x265 [info]: Thread pool created using 24 threads
x265 [info]: frame threads / pool features : 5 / wpp(34 rows)
x265 [info]: Coding QT: max CU size, min CU size : 64 / 8
x265 [info]: Residual QT: max TU size, max depth : 32 / 1 inter / 1 intra
x265 [info]: ME / range / subpel / merge : hex / 57 / 2 / 2
x265 [info]: Keyframe min / max / scenecut : 23 / 250 / 40
x265 [info]: Lookahead / bframes / badapt : 20 / 4 / 2
x265 [info]: b-pyramid / weightp / weightb : 1 / 1 / 0
x265 [info]: References / ref-limit cu / depth : 3 / on / on
x265 [info]: AQ: mode / str / qg-size / cu-tree : 1 / 1.0 / 32 / 1
x265 [info]: Rate Control / qCompress : CRF-12.0 / 0.60
x265 [info]: tools: rd=3 psy-rd=2.00 rskip signhide tmvp strong-intra-smoothing
x265 [info]: tools: lslices=8 deblock sao
[mp4 @ 0x3239340] Using AVStream.codec to pass codec parameters to muxers is deprecated, use AVStream.codecpar instead.
Output #0, mp4, to 'test.mp4':
Metadata:
encoder : Lavf57.48.100
Stream #0:0: Video: hevc (libx265) ([35][0][0][0] / 0x0023), yuv420p10le, 3840x2160, q=2-31, 23.98 fps, 24k tbn, 23.98 tbc
Metadata:
encoder : Lavc57.54.100 libx265
Stream mapping:
Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (tiff (native) -> hevc (libx265))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
frame= 49 fps=1.0 q=-0.0 Lsize= 9831kB time=00:00:01.91 bitrate=41977.1kbits/s speed=0.0391x
video:9829kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:1kB muxing overhead: 0.025485%
x265 [info]: frame I: 1, Avg QP:9.14 kb/s: 96922.02
x265 [info]: frame P: 10, Avg QP:9.70 kb/s: 67176.81
x265 [info]: frame B: 38, Avg QP:13.07 kb/s: 30572.90
x265 [info]: Weighted P-Frames: Y:0.0% UV:0.0%
x265 [info]: consecutive B-frames: 9.1% 0.0% 0.0% 18.2% 72.7%

encoded 49 frames in 49.61s (0.99 fps), 39397.15 kb/s, Avg QP:12.30

[benwaggoner]

Apologies if this is a derail but I've attempted to read and re-read this thread many times and am pretty sure this hasn't come up, but why not encode all in ffmpeg? Would it have something to do with the current convo on the shortcomings of ffmpeg and colorspace? Can someone tell me why the below command would not work to produce exactly what the OP wanted? (and yeah first post, ahem)

Input= 16bit 4k HDR10 graded tiffs in rec.2020
I get nervous with "color_matrix=bt2020". Because that is going to be 2020 primaries with gamma, not 2020 with PQ, which is what the x265 command line is using.

It might well work if the source and output are both PQ. Let us know how it works!

[kolak]

Apologies if this is a derail but I've attempted to read and re-read this thread many times and am pretty sure this hasn't come up, but why not encode all in ffmpeg? Would it have something to do with the current convo on the shortcomings of ffmpeg and colorspace? Can someone tell me why the below command would not work to produce exactly what the OP wanted? (and yeah first post, ahem)

Input= 16bit 4k HDR10 graded tiffs in rec.2020

ffmpeg -threads 16 -r 24000/1001 -start_number 0085069 -i 'hdr10_targ5_test_3.%07d.tiff' \\
-vf scale=out_color_matrix=bt2020:out_h_chr_pos=0:out_v_chr_pos=0,format=yuv420p10 -c:v libx265 -preset medium \\
-x265-params crf=12:colorprim=bt2020:transfer=smpte-st-2084:colormatrix=bt2020nc:master-display="G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(10000000,1)":max-cll="1000,400" -an /output/test.mp4

OUTPUT:
ffmpeg version N-81451-g8a78fc5 Copyright (c) 2000-2016 the FFmpeg developers
built with gcc 4.8 (Ubuntu 4.8.4-2ubuntu1~14.04.3)
configuration: --enable-libopenjpeg --prefix=/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build \\
--pkg-config-flags=--static --extra-cflags=-I/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build/include \\
--extra-ldflags=-L/home/CORP/someone/ffmpeg_build/lib --bindir=/home/CORP/someone/bin --enable-gpl --disable-libass \\
--enable-libfdk-aac --enable-libfreetype --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libopus --enable-libtheora --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx \\
--enable-libx264 --enable-libx265 --enable-nonfree
libavutil 55. 29.100 / 55. 29.100
libavcodec 57. 54.100 / 57. 54.100
libavformat 57. 48.100 / 57. 48.100
libavdevice 57. 0.102 / 57. 0.102
libavfilter 6. 54.100 / 6. 54.100
libswscale 4. 1.100 / 4. 1.100
libswresample 2. 1.100 / 2. 1.100
libpostproc 54. 0.100 / 54. 0.100
Input #0, image2, from 'hdr10_targ5_test.%07d.tiff':
Duration: 00:00:01.96, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
Stream #0:0: Video: tiff, rgb48le, 3840x2160, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc
x265 [info]: HEVC encoder version 2.0+16-215eedc9ecc0
x265 [info]: build info [Linux][GCC 4.8.4][64 bit] 10bit
x265 [info]: using cpu capabilities: MMX2 SSE2Fast SSSE3 SSE4.2 AVX
x265 [info]: Main 10 profile, Level-5 (Main tier)
x265 [info]: Thread pool created using 24 threads
x265 [info]: frame threads / pool features : 5 / wpp(34 rows)
x265 [info]: Coding QT: max CU size, min CU size : 64 / 8
x265 [info]: Residual QT: max TU size, max depth : 32 / 1 inter / 1 intra
x265 [info]: ME / range / subpel / merge : hex / 57 / 2 / 2
x265 [info]: Keyframe min / max / scenecut : 23 / 250 / 40
x265 [info]: Lookahead / bframes / badapt : 20 / 4 / 2
x265 [info]: b-pyramid / weightp / weightb : 1 / 1 / 0
x265 [info]: References / ref-limit cu / depth : 3 / on / on
x265 [info]: AQ: mode / str / qg-size / cu-tree : 1 / 1.0 / 32 / 1
x265 [info]: Rate Control / qCompress : CRF-12.0 / 0.60
x265 [info]: tools: rd=3 psy-rd=2.00 rskip signhide tmvp strong-intra-smoothing
x265 [info]: tools: lslices=8 deblock sao
[mp4 @ 0x3239340] Using AVStream.codec to pass codec parameters to muxers is deprecated, use AVStream.codecpar instead.
Output #0, mp4, to 'test.mp4':
Metadata:
encoder : Lavf57.48.100
Stream #0:0: Video: hevc (libx265) ([35][0][0][0] / 0x0023), yuv420p10le, 3840x2160, q=2-31, 23.98 fps, 24k tbn, 23.98 tbc
Metadata:
encoder : Lavc57.54.100 libx265
Stream mapping:
Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (tiff (native) -> hevc (libx265))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
frame= 49 fps=1.0 q=-0.0 Lsize= 9831kB time=00:00:01.91 bitrate=41977.1kbits/s speed=0.0391x
video:9829kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:1kB muxing overhead: 0.025485%
x265 [info]: frame I: 1, Avg QP:9.14 kb/s: 96922.02
x265 [info]: frame P: 10, Avg QP:9.70 kb/s: 67176.81
x265 [info]: frame B: 38, Avg QP:13.07 kb/s: 30572.90
x265 [info]: Weighted P-Frames: Y:0.0% UV:0.0%
x265 [info]: consecutive B-frames: 9.1% 0.0% 0.0% 18.2% 72.7%

encoded 49 frames in 49.61s (0.99 fps), 39397.15 kb/s, Avg QP:12.30

Maybe it's better to export straight out of grading app 4:2:2 10bit uncompressed, instead of RGB based format, so data doesn't go over any RGB<->YUV conversion.
You can also now specify "smpte-st-2084" in ffmpeg, so does it mean conversion will be accurate even from RGB?

[musicvideos4k]

VISIONPLUS HDR 10k nits ST. 2084/BT. 2020 Transfer

MadVR HDR to SDR configured in 3000 NITS / Preserve Hue in 0% High Quality and compressing the highlights.

MadVR Color & Gamma Settings:

- Contrast in -24
- Enable Gamma Processing: Pure Power Curve 2.20

Display Calibration:
- This display has been calibrated
- Disable GPU Gamma Ramps
- BT. 2020 Gamut
- Pure Power Curve: 2.40

3000 NITS MADVR:

http://i.imgur.com/oJxK36u.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JJTTTHy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wiSdCr2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aQq8hrf.jpg


And the star of the show.

http://i.imgur.com/pTbFhBR.jpg

[musicvideos4k]

Avatar Transferred to HDR.


2000 nits / Pure Power Curve in 2.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QqapeMCjZw

Now with 4250 nits / Pure Power Curve in 2.60 and Without Compressing Highlights at all.

Watch these images in a TV Dynamic/Vivo Preset and if you want turn up saturation some more.

http://i.imgur.com/Gq9g2gi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a4zzR5d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1PVoayb.jpg

[kolak]

I'm not sure if these grabs show anything interesting.
What are you guys actually do? HDR grading? What do you use as reference screen- Dolby?

[musicvideos4k]

I'm not sure if these grabs show anything interesting.
What are you guys actually do? HDR grading? What do you use as reference screen- Dolby?

2000 nits / Pure Power Curve in 2.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QqapeMCjZw

Watch that video with a TV Dynamic Preset in fullscreen. And later just watch original SDR Avatar.

Even on youtube you can see the difference, but the best would be playing the hevc stream on HDR tv or MadVR in above settings.

HDR must be displayed fullscreen by using Dynamic TV Presets, at least the one im showing to you here.

With the HEVC stream you get fullscreen directx11 exclusive 10-bit MadVR.

This also has BT. 2020, again even on youtube you can see the color gamut against the original SDR blu-ray.

This is from that video settings by using the same Power Curve on both:

SDR:
http://i.imgur.com/fKCzNZ8.jpg



HDR:
http://i.imgur.com/eCBWw6a.jpg

[kolak]

Different doesn't mean better :)
How I meant to see higher gamut if in both cases I'm just looking at it on Mac screen which just have Rec.709 gamut?
It just looks oversaturated and with to high contrast.

madVR won't rigger HDR mode in most TVs, as it doesn't add correct flagging on HDMI and most consumer TVs don't allow manual set TV to HDR mode. You need to encode h265 with correct flagging and play this from USB, so TV automatically switches to HDR mode.

[musicvideos4k]

Different doesn't mean better :)
How I meant to see higher gamut if in both cases I'm just looking at it on Mac screen which just have Rec.709 gamut?

You need MadVR and the native HDR stream. With MadVR you can calibrate to BT. 2020 even with luts.

It doesn't matter anyway, you can see the gamut difference even on those pictures and on the youtube video. Find the same scene on youtube and compare range and gamut.

And HDR IS better than SDR, in any way.

[kolak]

HDR is going to be better, as SDR is based on spec from many years ago. It was made based on TV capabilities at the time and this has changed a lot since then. Pro industry is very outdated and adopting very slowly compared to other things.
I've seen some HDR v SDR comparison on Sony OLED professional (and on Dolby) monitor and difference looked like day and night :)

TV has to be in HDR mode in order to see HDR advantages. Otherwise it's not a real deal :)

[musicvideos4k]

HDR is going to be better, as SDR is based on spec from many years ago. It was made based on TV capabilities at the time and this has changed a lot since then. Pro industry is very outdated and adopting very slowly compared to other things.
I've seen HDR v SDR on Sony OLED professional monitor and it looked day and night :)

TV has to be in HDR mode in order to see HDR advantages. Otherwise it's not a real deal :)

You don't seem to understand. HDR doesn't needs some TV, the technology is on the video. TV's can expand or make it look better or worse depending their contrast and nits capabilities. Gamut is also on the video not on the TV's.

This is from the same images you said " there is nothing interesting " and " different doesn't means better "

SDR:

http://i.imgur.com/5zs5ghA.jpg

HDR:

http://i.imgur.com/fZ8VfrL.jpg

Same Power Curve on both.

And this is my HDR processing, i don't know what the guys on here are doing.

[kolak]

I know what you mean, but your HDR is far from being correct/optimal :)
Gamut is on the video not TV? It's on both- video is graded to some gamut and then in order to see it correctly you need TV which covers this gamut, Rec.709, P3 etc. That's why video is graded on pro monitors (which cost big money) which are calibrated perfectly to specific gamut. If your home TV is "perfect" video will look 100% the same as on grading monitor, but this is almost never the case as home TVs out if box are really mess when it comes to accuracy:)
Go back too goole and read more:)

[musicvideos4k]

I know what you mean, but your HDR is far from being correct/optimal :)
Gamut is on the video not TV?
Go back too goole :)

And yet you are watching the "HDR" on a laptop window and in pictures. Read again where i said: fullscreen tv dynamic mode. The HDR is just fine, it's even better than the toning from the commercial hdr blu-ray, and more nits mastered.


Cheers.

[kolak]

Define better? Brighter, more contrast, warmer, colder? It's director who decides with colourist how movie looks and they give it a reference look based on reference screen viewing.
You can tweak your version as you want, but this is just for your pleasure. No one is going to put your version on Blu-ray :)
Also- it looks somehow on your TV, but on some else Tv it will look different as home TVs are far form being consistent (even if in theory the meant to be). That's why grading monitors cost 20K :)

[musicvideos4k]

Define better? Brighter, more contrast, warmer, colder? It's director who decides with colourist how movie looks and they give it a reference look based on reference screen viewing.
You can tweak your version as you want, but this is just for your pleasure. No one is going to put your version on Blu-ray :)
Also- it looks somehow on your TV, but on some else Tv it will look different as home TVs are far form being consistent (even if in theory the meant to be). That's why grading monitors cost 20K :)

HDR is high dynamic range, another curve. HDR makes SDR look like garbage. HDR expands everything, what are you talking about directors?

Do you think the director wants this movie to look like this :

http://i.imgur.com/LEhOX7k.jpg

Or like this?

http://i.imgur.com/wbDVHpW.jpg

Now without highlights compression and 3500 nits:

http://i.imgur.com/6osvLfE.jpg

See the sky? Notice anything?



Same Power Curve on both. See how SDR even artifacts? Do you even know why is that?

This HDR is being processed by MadVR. Just in case, software processing.

Figure out why Sony released the HDR version of "The Shallows" then... if the "director" was fine with the crappy SDR. Go and buy the HDR version and you will be surprised on how well mine looks. And double surprised since the HDR version looks complete the opposite as the SDR in toning, because HDR makes things look more real than crappy SDR technology.

More?

1000 nit MadVR processing, compressing highlights and Power Curve on 2.60:

HDR:
http://i.imgur.com/RwUg5Ix.jpg

SDR BT. 709 Curve:
http://i.imgur.com/0yPqmTw.jpg

I wonder if you even understand what HDR is about.

[kolak]

Read about whole process of making a movie, specially how it's graded. You may find it interesting.

Director wanted it to look as on original Blu-ray as this is done to a standard (Rec.709). When this was done there was no HDR. When time comes and studio finds money they will create HDR version from original assets and this will be again approved by the director and will most likely look noting like your HDR version :)
Your HDR just as HDR look, but it's nothing like REAL HDR. You have created it from SDR version, which has limited gamut and dynamic range. What you need is access to original assets (which have huge gamut an dynamic range) and then starting from this you create proper HDR master. Your version is just a quite poor simulation of possible real HDR master. If you like it, then fine- enjoy it, just don't forget how you created it (what was the source) :)

[nevcairiel]

If all you do is take a SDR video, "process" it into HDR, and then let madVR convert it back into SDR, then you didn't create HDR, you just created a new SDR video thats different. You could encode a SDR video file from that!

HDR is primarily about actually showing more information on your screen - a higher range of data, higher gamut and higher contrast. For that to be possible you actually need to set your screen in BT.2020 and HDR mode. Using a video player to convert it back to SDR won't give you "more information", it'll just give you different results.

[benwaggoner]

Exactly. None of the commercial HDR content I know of was created from 8-bit SDR compressed sources. It's almost always going back to at least a digital cinema master, which will use the P3 color space, or a negative scan, or some sort of camera RAW like file. And definitely at least 10-bit source, probably uncompressed (like DPX).

And it's another pass of creative tweaking and creative signoff. Different directors and cinematographers have very different preferences for how an HDR version looks. And you see different stylistic choices get made depending on whether it gets graded in HDR first and then SDR, or vise versa. Or graded for DCI first and then HDR, etcetera.

And there is no good programmatic way to grade an HDR, just as there isn't for SDR. These are different creative canvases, and thus different creative choices get made. Some scenes in the HDR of Man in the High Castle were darker than in the SDR, because 10-bits of the PQ curve allowed for a lot more visible detail in the shadow which Rec. 709 simply couldn't mathematically represent. And HDR can do a bright, blue sky, while an SDR the sky can be EITHER bright OR blue. Starting with a SDR grade, there's no way to know what the creatives would prefer.

Doing automated HDR is kind of like using "Vivid" mode on a TV. It can be impressive, but can also dramatically diverge from creative intent.

Read about whole process of making a movie, specially how it's graded. You may find it interesting.

Director wanted it to look as on original Blu-ray as this is done to a standard (Rec.709). When this was done there was no HDR. When time comes and studio finds money they will create HDR version from original assets and this will be again approved by the director and will most likely look noting like your HDR version :)
Your HDR just as HDR look, but it's nothing like REAL HDR. You have created it from SDR version, which has limited gamut and dynamic range. What you need is access to original assets (which has huge gamut an dynamic range) and then starting from this you create proper HDR master. Your version is just a quite poor simulation of possible real HDR master. If you like it, then fine- enjoy it :)

[musicvideos4k]

If all you do is take a SDR video, "process" it into HDR, and then let madVR convert it back into SDR, then you didn't create HDR, you just created a new SDR video thats different. You could encode a SDR video file from that!

HDR is primarily about actually showing more information on your screen - a higher range of data, higher gamut and higher contrast. For that to be possible you actually need to set your screen in BT.2020 and HDR mode. Using a video player to convert it back to SDR won't give you "more information", it'll just give you different results.

I'm actually astonished on the knowledge in that post, more coming from a doomer in "HDR" thread.

MadVR process HDR signal ( native ) only if you feed actual HDR to it, otherwise it doesn't even works. That explains to you what im feeding is actually HDR.

When MadVR process the HDR signal back to SDR you can select "display nits" to your pleasure and the processed image is "watchable" on a SDR display, giving you the "higher contrast and higher gamut" compared to the same video in Standard dynamic range and BT. 709 Curve and gamut.

I use MadVR since you can see the difference from miles away and that's what is for, showing HDR signal back to SDR with MadVR gives you the "new image" showing huge differences from the SDR version, yet again "the higher contrast, gamut and range".

You can also watch my HDR streams with the "process HDR with pixel shader math" or just "passthrough HDR signal to the TV" by using a calibrated TV preset for HDR ( white balances, contrast tweaks , etc ).

HDR is HDR, there's nothing more to it.

This image is processed again by MadVR to SDR, this allows you to see the higher contrast, gamut and range compared to the same scene in SDR with 709 curve and gamut: SDR is going to look weaker contrast, lower gamut and lower range. You can even notice it when you saturate both pictures, one gets saturated in a milisecond, the other does not. Not to mention the higher contrast in lights, details and range.

http://i.imgur.com/VlUwPnr.jpg

[musicvideos4k]

Exactly. None of the commercial HDR content I know of was created from 8-bit SDR compressed sources. It's almost always going back to at least a digital cinema master, which will use the P3 color space, or a negative scan, or some sort of camera RAW like file. And definitely at least 10-bit source, probably uncompressed (like DPX).

And it's another pass of creative tweaking and creative signoff. Different directors and cinematographers have very different preferences for how an HDR version looks. And you see different stylistic choices get made depending on whether it gets graded in HDR first and then SDR, or vise versa. Or graded for DCI first and then HDR, etcetera.

And there is no good programmatic way to grade an HDR, just as there isn't for SDR. These are different creative canvases, and thus different creative choices get made. Some scenes in the HDR of Man in the High Castle were darker than in the SDR, because 10-bits of the PQ curve allowed for a lot more visible detail in the shadow which Rec. 709 simply couldn't mathematically represent. And HDR can do a bright, blue sky, while an SDR the sky can be EITHER bright OR blue. Starting with a SDR grade, there's no way to know what the creatives would prefer.

Doing automated HDR is kind of like using "Vivid" mode on a TV. It can be impressive, but can also dramatically diverge from creative intent.

I don't care what you believe they "do". I do what i like, and is HDR. Tell me why it looks bad, then.
And what did you mean as "automated hdr" ? I process the HDR myself, what is automated HDR anyway?

[musicvideos4k]

Read about whole process of making a movie, specially how it's graded. You may find it interesting.

Director wanted it to look as on original Blu-ray as this is done to a standard (Rec.709). When this was done there was no HDR. When time comes and studio finds money they will create HDR version from original assets and this will be again approved by the director and will most likely look noting like your HDR version :)
Your HDR just as HDR look, but it's nothing like REAL HDR. You have created it from SDR version, which has limited gamut and dynamic range. What you need is access to original assets (which have huge gamut an dynamic range) and then starting from this you create proper HDR master. Your version is just a quite poor simulation of possible real HDR master. If you like it, then fine- enjoy it, just don't forget how you created it (what was the source) :)

Did you watch ANY of my movies in HDR? When you actually do and compare it to the HDR10 ( 1200 nits mastered ) movies, you will change your mind and apologize.

The movies you can buy are the best 4000 nits mastered ( dolby vision ) and not so many are even well done. The rest, are only HDR10.

What i do is up to 10k nits and you can see the higher range everywhere in my movies, i posted you how sky shows new clouds and you are talking about "higher masters" where you will see the SAME cloud i managed to show up in higher range and gamut.

Then... there's nothing more to it. It won't have another cloud that is not there, since that's how it was filmed even on the "higher master".

Blu Ray HDR are mastered in low nits, that's why you get an annoying bright picture, what i do is higher nits from where you get higher gamut , range and gamma curve to play with. Details are all there since the toning is the same the studios do.

You can't generate what is not there, in a movie HDR you see better image, range, contrast and gamut, making you see what you can't with the 709 curve, not things that are not actually there, unless it's another movie.

And it's completely obvious that an HDR movie mastered from the original source film will be best, what i do is HDR from SDR and i have never seen anybody doing it the way i do it. Sometimes i feel like this forum is full of crap, instead saying you like what i do you prefer to diminish the whole work with your comparisons with higher masters that nobody else do either on this forum or anywhere publicly.

Take care.

[nevcairiel]

I use MadVR since you can see the difference from miles away and that's what is for, showing HDR signal back to SDR with MadVR gives you the "new image" showing huge differences from the SDR version, yet again "the higher contrast, gamut and range"

But the key point that you are ignoring is that once madVR is done, the video is once again SDR. So you could just make a SDR video that looks just like the madVR output, without going through HDR in the first place.

[kolak]

He doesn't get it and he has no clue what he is actually doing. Pointless discussion. He makes best HDR video ( with huge gamut) in the world using Rec.709 masters watched with Dynamic picture setting on TV :D
His TV gamut is irrelevant as gamut is in video :D
He makes HDR version from SDR just to use madVR to go back to SDR:D
He lives is his own very bright world:D
He prefers look of HDR videos (even if it's not properly done HDR) and I do get this :)

[musicvideos4k]

But the key point that you are ignoring is that once madVR is done, the video is once again SDR. So you could just make a SDR video that looks just like the madVR output, without going through HDR in the first place.

No, you can't. The HDR processing expands the gamut and range, when MadVR outputs the "SDR" is actually from the HDR signal, you can't have the same output, ever. Because it simulates a Display Nits and the "signal" in SDR is going to look always different from 400 to 10000 nits and compressing, or not compressing highlights. You can have different "SDR output" even with changing the power curve on MadVR too. The image is going to show HDR imagery, because that's what it is for.

MadVR "simulates" the HDR TV with those presets. Read about it, you can feed MadVR with native HDR demos from Sony, LG, Samsung and it will look exactly as how it looks on any HDR TV with the "HDR to SDR signal".

When you choose the "HDR to SDR" you can even select the output GAMUT in BT. 2020 or DCI-P3. ( if original HDR feed has one or the other, by using MadVR display calibration and it will look the same gamut as original HDR )

The problem is you and the other guy doesn't know anything about HDR video or MadVR and you are both discussing without 2 basic things: Watch my movies first and know at least what MadVR does.

[musicvideos4k]

He doesn't get it and he has no clue what he is actually doing. Pointless discussion. He makes best HDR video ( with huge gamut) in the world using Rec.709 masters watched with Dynamic picture setting on TV :D
His TV gamut is irrelevant as gamut is in video :D
He makes HDR version from SDR just to use madVR to go back to SDR:D
He lives is his own very bright world:D
He prefers look of HDR videos (even if it's not properly done HDR) and I do get this :)

It's HDR signal processed by MadVR to be watchable on a PC Monitor ( SDR display ). It process the HDR signal, you can't see that kind of "SDR" or make that kind of "SDR" without MadVR processing an HDR signal first.

Download MadVR, feed on it the Sony Camp HDR demo ( native ) and when you make an SDR video to look like that, then let me know.

You are the one who doesn't knows anything about HDR.

You are the one who doesn't knows what i do because you didn't even watch any of my movies.

You are the one who doesn't know what MadVR does and you believe it gets you "SDR normal video you can even create it the same way"

You are the one that believes my HDR signal has "709 gamut". I transfer and expand the gamut, range and primaries/matrix.

You are the one who doesn't even knows what "GAMUT" is about either, from reading your posts.

Anyway, you are right it's pointless to discuss something with a monkey.

[musicvideos4k]

His TV gamut is irrelevant as gamut is in video :D


The TV has no gamuts on the display layers, only better "color" reproduction that differs from panel to panel. One video can look one way on a TV and different on other...is that fine? Well yes, because TV's can't have any "gamut".

"What they do is even cooler. LED backlights enhanced by quantum dots or nanocrystals can actually expand how many colors appear, and how rich they look. They can somewhat improve TVs' color with today's sources, but the main benefit won't be realized until wide color gamut content becomes more common over the next few years,"

Cheers kid.

[Groucho2004]

Anyway, you are right it's pointless to discuss something with a monkey.
Heading for another ban/strike, one can only hope. Besides, you have threatened about 10 times to never post here again (because everyone here is so stupid and doesn't understand you) - when do you think this is going to happen?

[musicvideos4k]

Heading for another ban/strike, one can only hope. Besides, you have threatened about 10 times to never post here again (because everyone here is so stupid and doesn't understand you) - when do you think this is going to happen?

Well, im reading people that does not watch any video i do and they are also saying TV's layers has gamuts on it, i also read videos doesn't have gamuts.

You are right, it's so stupid that the whole forum should be closed.

Who cares about bans on a forum like this? You can ban me a hundred times, it won't change the fact im reading stupid things.

And i have said i won't post again on the other topic, i came here to show what i do. But you are right once again, people on here doesn't even knows what gamut is about, it's pointless to discuss HDR.

[kolak]

It's HDR signal processed by MadVR to be watchable on a PC Monitor ( SDR display ). It process the HDR signal, you can't see that kind of "SDR" or make that kind of "SDR" without MadVR processing an HDR signal first.

Download MadVR, feed on it the Sony Camp HDR demo ( native ) and when you make an SDR video to look like that, then let me know.

You are the one who doesn't knows anything about HDR.

You are the one who doesn't knows what i do because you didn't even watch any of my movies.

You are the one who doesn't know what MadVR does and you believe it gets you "SDR normal video you can even create it the same way"

You are the one that believes my HDR signal has "709 gamut". I transfer and expand the gamut, range and primaries/matrix.

You are the one who doesn't even knows what "GAMUT" is about either, from reading your posts.

Anyway, you are right it's pointless to discuss something with a monkey.

You are starting with Rec.709 Blu-ray 4:2:0, 8bit fairly compressed footage. Can you explain me how are you expanding gamut? Do you have magic wand which creates additional colors? BD footage is graded to Rec.709 gamut and you can't just like this make Rec.2020 out of it (you can do opposite way). You have no clue about what madVR does, you think that when you say Rec.2020 then any source magically "gets" all colours in Rec.2020 space out of your BD source?
It's the same as trying to make 10bit out of 8bit (but even way more complicated)- you can't. You can add maybe 0.5 bit into depth, but that's about it. It will never be like real 10bit footage. Do you get it? Yo need high quality master to do HDR version with ice gamut. All what you do is making image look brighter and different than BD version. If you like ti this way then that's fine.

Opposite to you I actually worked on some of those Samsung/Sony HDR demos which you prise so much :)

I think you should be already banned.

[kolak]

Well, im reading people that does not watch any video i do and they are also saying TV's layers has gamuts on it, i also read videos doesn't have gamuts.

You are right, it's so stupid that the whole forum should be closed.

Who cares about bans on a forum like this? You can ban me a hundred times, it won't change the fact im reading stupid things.

And i have said i won't post again on the other topic, i came here to show what i do. But you are right once again, people on here doesn't even knows what gamut is about, it's pointless to discuss HDR.

What do you actually do?
Use a bit of software which someone else has written and does processing for you?
Where is your work? Have you written some clever tone mapping algorithm or something else for e.g. Rec.709 SDR to HDR "fake" conversion for source which have no good masters?

Tell me- maybe I can get you work at very good studio if you have great ideas and skills :) What I see so far is a kid making brighter videos :)

[kolak]

The TV has no gamuts on the display layers, only better "color" reproduction that differs from panel to panel. One video can look one way on a TV and different on other...is that fine? Well yes, because TV's can't have any "gamut".

Cheers kid.

It meant to have gamut described in one of the standards, so when you grade footage on reference monitor then it looks the same on your TV. All TVs in theory should look the same. This is the whole point of a standards. If you take good ones then you can match them very close. Bad one are simply crap.

What TV do you have?

If you haven't noticed HDR is also a standardised format and when you create content you have to adhere to it, otherwise your are a kid doing bright and colourful videos in own room.
Nothing wrong with it, but don't expect that people are going to adore and wow you for this :) There is nothing mathematically, visually, creatively amazing in your work, but if you enjoy it then have fun, just don't spam forum. Some people here actually have amazing knowledge and do some cool things. Don't forget that you use madVR which was created within help of this forum. If you don't care about people here then simply disappear from here.
Start new forum so you can find people who will adore you for your amazing work :)

[musicvideos4k]

You are starting with Rec.709 Blu-ray 4:2:0, 8bit fairly compressed footage. Can you explain me how are you expanding gamut? Do you have magic wand which creates additional colors? BD footage is graded to Rec.709 gamut and you can't just like this make Rec.2020 out of it (you can do opposite way). You have no clue about what madVR does, you think that when you say Rec.2020 then any source magically "gets" all colours in Rec.2020 space out of your BD source?
It's the same as trying to make 10bit out of 8bit (but even way more complicated)- you can't. You can add maybe 0.5 bit into depth, but that's about it. It will never be like real 10bit footage. Do you get it? Yo need high quality master to do HDR version with ice gamut. All what you do is making image look brighter and different than BD version. If you like ti this way then that's fine.

Opposite to you I actually worked on some of those Samsung/Sony HDR demos which you prise so much :)

I think you should be already banned.

Yes im Gandalf.

I won't even reply anymore on here, take care my friend. Keep on believing videos doesn't have gamut and TV's do.

When you actually watch any of my movies, enjoy them. And you will see a lot of "gamut" and "range" you are saying it doesn't have because... you say it (?). Cheers.

[Groucho2004]

If you haven't noticed HDR is also a standardised format and when you create content you have to adhere to it, otherwise your are a kid doing bright and colourful videos in own room.
That sums it up nicely, methinks. ;)

[musicvideos4k]

Opposite to you I actually worked on some of those Samsung/Sony HDR demos which you prise so much :)

I think you should be already banned.

LOL. WTF Im out of here.

[musicvideos4k]

That sums it up nicely, methinks. ;)

You didn't watch any of my videos either. You don't watch but you "think". Awesome forum here, people for sure enjoys reading.

[kolak]

Are you not bored repeating this?
People don't need to watch any of your videos. They can get HDR demo clip and create the same as you just by using madVR. Your videos are just a madVR processed, so there is not much YOURS there (including videos itself which are form the net).

Is this our website?
musicvideos4k.com

Do you charge money for watching your (read someone else stolen content)?

[musicvideos4k]

Are you not bored repeating this?
People don't need to watch any of your videos. They can get HDR demo clip and create the same as you just by using madVR. Your videos are just a madVR processed, so there is not much YOURS there (including videos itself which are form the net).

Is this our website?
musicvideos4k.com

Do you charge money for watching your (read someone else stolen content)?

LOL WTF. Yes kid , my videos doesn't need to be watched. Native HDR BT.2020 ST. 2084 can be pleasant watched by Jpeg images.

Please, what kind of work do you do on Sony? Bathroom cleaning?

[kolak]

Man, taking someone else content, making it crap HDR and than charging money for watching it is a crime. Just so you understand it.

[musicvideos4k]

Man, taking someone else content, making it crap HDR and than charging money for watching it is a crime. Just so you understand it.

What? I don't sell anything lol.

You said you work on Sony HDR videos and yet you say videos doesnt have gamut and yet you also said you can watch HDR content on a jpeg image.

That's the crime.

I can't believe i have to explain this with images and text for your little brain to understand.


Native SDR content feeding MadVR ( Does not turn on HDR at all, since what you feed is SDR )
http://i.imgur.com/8MIXo0Z.jpg


Native HDR content feeding MadVR ( Turns on HDR since what you feed is REAL HDR )
http://i.imgur.com/O77qh28.jpg


How old are you anyway? Do you understand now? Or this is not enough? Can you see the GAMUT? LOL.

I have made a video for your MORE UNDERSTANDING. Since it looks like you are a hard one.

This shows MadVR HDR processing feeding Native Avatar HDR stream.

*** Audio is out of sync due to the recording ***

First you see MadVR Converting to SDR display 3000 nits without compressing highlights.

At the second half of the video you see MadVR pass-through HDR content directly to the display, where you need HDR TV Preset to watch it.

https://youtu.be/rAY7zZvAW0k



Believe my friend, believe.

And please stop talking about you work on Sony. It makes you look really bad on here.

[kolak]

Can one of the moderators remove posts which have nothing to do with this thread please.

[musicvideos4k]

Can one of the moderators remove posts which have nothing to do with the thread please.

Remove yours? Did you watch the video? Do you understand now " Mr. I work On Sony" ? :devil:

[musicvideos4k]

Can one of the moderators remove posts which have nothing to do with this thread please.

Hey man!!! Sony Man... did you watch it or not?

Watch this one too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy8MMxgKJ-0

Isn't that HDR enough? Can't you see the "gamut" and "range" and improved image like 1000% from the SDR version? Tell me im really waiting on your spectacular opinion.:D

[kolak]

Looks amazing, have not seen such HDR so far.

[musicvideos4k]

Looks amazing, have not seen such HDR so far.

No you actually didn't because avatar is not made in HDR by your friends on Fox. Im sure you actually work for FOX too.
Im quite confused though, you said you did HDR videos for Sony and Samsung but some posts ago you didn't know how to even use FFMpeg to encode a simple 4K TIFF.

You are evil.:D

I confused you with another user, you are actually a guy that doesn't knows what he is doing on the entire thread. In one post you copy paste commands and on the others you "recommend" to people, but nobody saw what you do, at all.

Actually im surprised on the amazing placebo talking on this topic, you have made a lot of posts and shown... nothing. But you can actually say an HDR video doesn't have gamut on it.

Keep it on!

[Motenai Yoda]

Hey man!!! Sony Man... did you watch it or not?

Watch this one too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy8MMxgKJ-0

Isn't that HDR enough? Can't you see the "gamut" and "range" and improved image like 1000% from the SDR version? Tell me im really waiting on your spectacular opinion.:D

Do you know an HDR video on an SDR monitor/tv should look exactly the same as the SDR one?

Or that when converting from bt.709 to bt.2020 all colors should looks the same too?

What you're doing isn't 4k conversion but some sort of remastering which has nothing to do with 4k.

[kolak]

No you actually didn't because avatar is not made in HDR by your friends on Fox. Im sure you actually work for FOX too.
Im quite confused though, you said you did HDR videos for Sony and Samsung but some posts ago you didn't know how to even use FFMpeg to encode a simple 4K TIFF.

You are evil.:D

I confused you with another user, you are actually a guy that doesn't knows what he is doing on the entire thread. In one post you copy paste commands and on the others you "recommend" to people, but nobody saw what you do, at all.

Actually im surprised on the amazing placebo talking on this topic, you have made a lot of posts and shown... nothing. But you can actually say an HDR video doesn't have gamut on it.

Keep it on!


Hehehe- I did not even look at this video as it's pointless.
All what you do is use MadVR on some HDR demo clips- everyone can do it and they don't need your input for this. Simple as this. We all know what madVR can do, so stop repeating yourself.

Read comment above- did you know this? Do you know that these clips were not graded to 3K nits nor your TV is any near 3000 nits (more like 1000 or 1500 if it's a top range). What you should use in madVR is 1000nits, so conversion is done more correctly.

Stop this nonsense- told you no one is going prise your videos as everyone can reproduce them just by using madVR.
All what you do is play HDR clips with madVR with conversion back to some oversaturated/contrasted SDR. Told you- if you think they look better than Rec.709 masters then fine- they will make way bigger wow factor on average Joe, but this is irrelevant here. You can get very similar look even without madVR- just bump up everything on your TV :)
You can load clip to Premiere, Resolve etc and grade it to such a look. You don't even have a HDR TV do you?

Get out of your room and grab bit of fresh air- it will do good for you :)
Shoot something by yourself, grade nicely and than shows us.

[musicvideos4k]

Hehehe- I did not even look at this video as it's pointless.
All what you do is use MadVR on some HDR demo clips- everyone can do it and they don't need your input for this. Simple as this. We all know what madVR can do, so stop repeating yourself.

Read comment above- did you know this? Do you know that these clips were not graded to 3K nits nor your TV is any near 3000 nits (more like 1000 or 1500 if it's a top range). What you should use in madVR is 1000nits, so conversion is done more correctly.

Stop this nonsense- told you no one is going prise your videos as everyone can reproduce them just by using madVR.
All what you do is play HDR clips with madVR with conversion back to some oversaturated/contrasted SDR. Told you- if you think they look better than Rec.709 masters then fine- they will make way bigger wow factor on average Joe, but this is irrelevant here. You can get very similar look even without madVR- just bump up everything on your TV :)
You can load clip to Premiere, Resolve etc and grade it to such a look. You don't even have a HDR TV do you?

Get out of your room and grab bit of fresh air- it will do good for you :)
Shoot something by yourself, grade nicely and than shows us.

hehehehe You really have no idea on what i do right?

You are actually interested as you are trying to figure out what i do and you think im using some HDR demos from Avatar? Are you kidding me right?

I have graded Avatar up to 10k nits. You can even see it on the left MadVR measuring nits on the remaster, which is made by me. Not by FOX, as Avatar doesn't exists on "HDR DEMOS".

Now to your "recommendation" about the "HDR Demos" (?) to play in 1000nits because you think this is not graded up to 10K:

1000 nits MadVR. Image all wrong, complete over exposed.

http://i.imgur.com/cP2YdJX.jpg

3500 nits MadVR. Not over exposed.

http://i.imgur.com/1OEjiDD.jpg


You really have no idea about what i do.

You think im using Fox Demos. :D

See the color gamut as well? Compare it with SDR Avatar as well. It's another world.

And stop talking about rooms and kids. You are the kid in the room now.

[musicvideos4k]

Do you know an HDR video on an SDR monitor/tv should look exactly the same as the SDR one?

Or that when converting from bt.709 to bt.2020 all colors should looks the same too?

What you're doing isn't 4k conversion but some sort of remastering which has nothing to do with 4k.

Lol. MadVR takes HDR input and it changes it up to your tastes with the nits you give it and the pure power curve you give it. You get BT. 2020 or DCI-P3 Gamut depending on the content you feed on it, my Avatar Grading is BT. 2020.

Please check the above images and the gamut/nits. Compare the same scene with the "SDR 709 Avatar"... do you want me to post it? It looks like complete garbage in comparison.

[kolak]

There is only 1 problem here- in order to do it you need Avatar ungraded master in at least some DPX form, but really ideally EXRs. 2nd problem- you need Dolby 10K monitor in order to judge HDR image. Rec.2020? Do you have a display which covers it, so you can judge ideal look?
Do you understand that when you grade it has to be to a standard and monitor which you look at has to meet this standard and be calibrated to it, otherwise is just "for you/your display"?
Do you have both? If not this is a still just a play with some video to make it look "better".

[kolak]

Lol. MadVR takes HDR input and it changes it up to your tastes with the nits you give it and the pure power curve you give it. You get BT. 2020 or DCI-P3 Gamut depending on the content you feed on it, my Avatar Grading is BT. 2020.

Please check the above images and the gamut/nits. Compare the same scene with the "SDR 709 Avatar"... do you want me to post it? It looks like complete garbage in comparison.

Magic word- "taste" :) We are not talking here about taste, but first about some processes which follow some rules. Taste is later and 7 out of 10 people may not like your taste, they may like it more warm, less saturate, less contrasty etc etc. This is what director with colourist decides on. If you want to change it fine, but this is purely for your joy. Your version my look way better to the eye (just purely by fact it's brighter) than Rec.709, but this is bit different thing. The whole point of HDR introduction is to make it look better and use capabilities of todays displays.

[musicvideos4k]

Magic word- "taste" :) We are not talking here about taste, but first about some processes which follow some rules. Taste is later and 7 out of 10 people may not like your taste, they may like it more warm, less saturate, less contrasty etc etc. This is what director with colourist decides on. If you want to change it fine, but this is purely for your joy. Your version my look way better to the eye (just purely by fact it's brighter) than Rec.709, but this is bit different thing. The whole point of HDR introduction is to make it look better and use capabilities of todays displays.

You just don't get it. It's not a normal process grading, second i don't need tastes, i just transfer the same color toning expanding the gamut, exactly what the movie studios should do instead of "re-grading" with "new colors" changing the toning of the original film to "HDR specs".

That's why i decided to do this, i don't need tastes or super Dolby monitors because i keep the same toning, but expanded range and gamut.

For example, check the flowers on these 2 shots.

Zoom in, both are 1080p. One is original SDR and second is my process in BT. 2020 grading.

Original 709 flowers are complete garbage in color gamut/palette.

SDR:
http://i.imgur.com/MJlC8NI.jpg


HDR with MadVR on 3500 nits:
http://i.imgur.com/DJPkSyc.jpg

Now flowers looks higher gamut/palette. You can even use your TV presets and find more gamut everywhere in the movie, and more detailed, since it has more gamut.

You can use any MadVR settings you want. The gamut is different and range is amplified as it's supposed to be.

And it doesn't looks bad, as this movie has been tested by a lot of people on way different TV's , monitors and even mobile phones, it looks just fine, but with better color ouput.

To see "real 2020" you do need better displays, but you can see the color is much better and has nothing to do with what you believe im doing here.

[kolak]

And you do it with?
It's not easy at all to expand gamut, same way as it's not easy to convert eg. 8bit to 10bit.
Have you written some clever tool which does it?

[musicvideos4k]

And you do it with?
It's not easy at all to expand gamut, same way as it's not easy to convert eg. 8bit to 10bit.
Have you written some clever tool which does it?

I do it with several scripts including the HDR core, and a method nobody is doing for HDR grading, then i just call at the end the dithering to expand as it's supposed to do prior to encode in HEVC ST. 2084 BT 2020.

I know it's not easy to do, it's not i did this in 1 day. It took me several months to find the way to do this.

I can show you a lot of comparisons and in every scene, you have more gamut and range, with same color toning as it's supposed to be.

You get this: If you use any TV and change presets or add saturation to the original 709 SDR , colors looks over saturated, palette gets crowded in a milisecond, you lose details and it looks unnatural.

You do the same with mine and you get real color, details keeps the same and image is 100% natural. That's what HDR is about.

[kolak]

This makes much more sense now when you actually said what you do.
Maybe it's better to post some tiffs.

[musicvideos4k]

This makes much more sense now when you actually said what you do.
Maybe it's better to post some tiffs.

Give me the tiffs you want me to test this and i will do it today.

Though, difference is there.

Here you have a 1080p screenshot comparison:

http://imgur.com/a/ATBs3

Check details and palette on both.

[kolak]

Can you somehow show how many new/unique colors are introduced?
There is no way to say this on the grabs. It just looks different.
Needs some graphs, math.
This sort of graph:


http://flandersscientific.com/img/scopes/cie-scope.jpg


for Rec.709 surce, simple convert to Rec.2020 and your version. Don't make it HDR, just extend gamut.

[musicvideos4k]

Can you somehow show how many new/unique colors are introduced?
There is no way to say this on the grabs. It just looks different.
Needs some graphs, math.
This sort of graph:


http://flandersscientific.com/img/scopes/cie-scope.jpg


for Rec.709 surce, simple convert to Rec.2020 and your version. Don't make it HDR, just extend gamut.

Let me understand you. You want me to grab that image and "transfer" to what i do and show the same image with BT. 2020? I don't get what you want me to do.

I do HDR in BT. 2020 grading.

[kolak]

Nope. I want some proof that your method does something nice :) Looking at stills proves not much. How do I know there are more colors there (my monitor won't even display them) not that only they look different?

Simple conversion between Rec.709 and Rec.2020 won't really introduce new colors or make image better (again, same as simple 8bit conversion to 10bit).

[Groucho2004]

Nope. I want some proof that your method does something nice :) Looking at stills proves not much. How do I know there are more colors there (my monitor won't even display them) not that only they look different?

Simple conversion between Rec.709 and Rec.2020 won't really introduce new colors or make image better (again, same as simple 8bit conversion to 10bit).
I bet this is the first time he's seen a CIE1931 chromaticity diagram. :D

[musicvideos4k]

Nope. I want some proof that your method does something nice :) Looking at stills proves not much. How do I know there are more colors there (my monitor won't even display them) not that only they look different?

Simple conversion between Rec.709 and Rec.2020 won't really introduce new colors or make image better (again, same as simple 8bit conversion to 10bit).

You are joking?

How watching at a processed video won't look different to you? You need to watch it and use TV presets, play the video on different TV's. Then play the original and do the same with the presets/TV's.

HDR has been created to make things better looking, the whole point is to people to like it better than the older SDR technology with limited palette and range.

You have several issues, you need to watch it anywhere and compare the same input with the same panels/calibration. When something looks better, no matter what you believe is happening, that's the whole point.

[musicvideos4k]

<content deleted>

[kolak]

Prove me that your version is better than mine:

https://s12.postimg.org/so68haujx/F3_KCe1_Z_copy.jpg

Took me 10 sec to do. It's not 100% identical but prove me yours is better :) I think mine is better.
Just by looking at some computer screen you can tell nothing about which is better or worse, so this is what I asked. Prove me with math, graphs.
If you can't then you wasted months as I almost everyone can create the same version in 10 seconds :)

[musicvideos4k]

Prove me that your version is better than mine:

https://s12.postimg.org/so68haujx/F3_KCe1_Z_copy.jpg

Took me 10 sec to do. It's not 100% identical but prove me yours is better :) I think mine is better.
Just by looking at some computer screen you can tell nothing about which is better or worse, so this is what I asked. Prove me with math, graphs.
If you can't then you wasted months as I almost everyone can create the same version in 10 seconds :)

Lol. Mine is better, because yours is a jpeg image. Anybody can photoshop anything. But you can't see your jpeg image on an HDR TV in native HDR, either with MadVR HDR, because that's a jpeg image.

This is what i said all along: Watch a video in native HEVC HDR. But you said here it's pointless to watch a VIDEO in HDR because to you , an image shows the same.

But now... out of nothing you like to show images pretending it's the same as i do?

Do a clip from avatar with HDR grading and BT. 2020 spec, then show it to me. Actually, do the same as here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy8MMxgKJ-0

Then upload it and show me "it took 10 seconds".

Show the MadVR Info and make it look better since you are a super pro guy. I want to see the same range amplified ( mountains on the back etc ) the color grading improved or even the same. Show us you are the PRO GUY.

[musicvideos4k]

And upload it to youtube, same as i did. Let's see the pro guy making it better.

[musicvideos4k]

It's taking longer than 10 seconds! Let's see native HDR in action from the guy that made HDR demo videos from Sony. Suddenly i begin to think this guy is working for free.

[kolak]

I did not use Photoshop but vs.
I can even do it faster without any processing. Just play Avatar Blu-ray, turn on fake HDR in TV, adjust few sliders and done. No need to waste time for any processing as TVs can do the same realtime. End result will be about the same.
Read this:

http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3548

If you want real HDR forget about your Rec.709 sources, you need something way better to start with.

[musicvideos4k]

I did not use Photoshop but vs.
I can even do it faster without any processing. Just play Avatar Blu-ray, turn on fake HDR in TV, adjust few sliders and done. No need to waste time for any processing as TVs can do the same realtime. End result will be about the same.
Read this:

http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3548

If you want real HDR forget about your Rec.709 sources, you need something way better to start with.

Lol. The problem here is you don't know what i do, and you don't know what HDR is either.

How you can say " TVs Do The Same" . TVs doesn't do any grading, toning, pre processing, dithering to 10-bits and later encode in ST. 2084 to bring you " real time HDR ".

Tv's just use white balances, saturation and contrast to make you believe you see HDR, but that's fake and unrealistic image, you even lose DETAILS in the process most people doesn't cares, but you???. Actually that sucks big time.

You see? You don't know what i do, therefore you come with me with a random post about something completely the opposite as im doing, proving you have zero idea on what i do and how i do it.

I will upload another video to youtube converted HDR signal with MadVR. Now tell me and ( SHOW ME ) TV can do the same image, range, color and contrast SHOWING MORE DETAIL on every frame, not by LOSING DETAILS = you won't since it's just impossible as what i do has nothing to do with a post process from a TV.
And it doesn't even matter being 709, i can do this process from any source. That's what scares you out.

[kolak]

Do what you want. If you want to show your videos fine. Start new thread. This one is about encoding h265 with HDR metadata. This what you do is wider topic.
If you post your scripts or at least discus something which is in them maybe people will be interested.

Your problem is that you don't tell what you do, just post some videos/grabs "graded" to crazy numbers. Why don't you do your processing to 1000nits and then watch it as HDR on TV which is able to display it. Don't get why your grade to crazy 10K nits and then use madVR to clip this to 3K etc. You do your amazing processing and later use madVR to do its own processing on top of your amazing HDR masters? What is the point? Do realistic version at 1K and watch as HDR or do straight away special SDR version.Why are you relying on madVR processing?

MadVR shows average light at 7K- as far as I can tell this is way to high for an average value. All these high values are just for peaks and TVs can display them for short time at 5% of the screen. Your "crazy" masters would not work with any TV out there, including Dolby 10K screen.

Do you have HDR TV at all, have you seen some HDR demo on Sony OLED or Dolby monitor?

Don't post next video/grab, just answer those questions.

[musicvideos4k]

Do what you want. If you want to show your videos fine. Start new thread. This one is about encoding h265 with HDR metadata. This what you do is wider topic.
If you post your scripts or at least discus something which is in them maybe people will be interested.

Your problem is that you don't tell what you do, just post some videos/grabs "graded" to crazy numbers. Why don't you do your processing to 1000nits and then watch it as HDR on TV which is able to display it. Don't get why your grade to crazy 10K nits and then use madVR to clip this to 3K etc. You do your amazing processing and later use madVR to do its own processing on top of your amazing HDR masters? What is the point? Do realistic version at 1K and watch as HDR or do straight away special SDR version.Why are you relying on madVR processing?

MadVR shows average light at 7K- as far as I can tell this is way to high for an average value. All these high values are just for peaks and TVs can display them for short time at 5% of the screen. Your "crazy" masters would not work with any TV out there, including Dolby 10K screen.

Do you have HDR TV at all, have you seen some HDR demo on Sony OLED or Dolby monitor?

Don't post next video/grab, just answer those questions.

Because grading to higher nits HDR looks just a lot better.

Why you believe studios grade in less nits, because "displays doesn't have more than 1000" ?

They do that so the displays stays on 1000 nits with crazy chips post processing, or the nano crystals and so on for "better color" and "stuff" = marketing, sells.

Lower nits grading makes HDR look too bright. You can read about this on HDTVtest UK where they actually explained today's HDR is too bright for "daylight". That and other stuff such as contrast HDR and details is over crowded for the low grading nits.

When you grade at higher nits you have more space and therefore you get better HDR, without having to get an stupidly bright image that has nothing to do with "real life" nits.

When you look up at a flower on the sun you don't see it like you were watching the same flower on the Sun ground, you can see it fine, with real life nits.

When you have HDR video graded on higher nits you can actually play the video from 400 nits to 10000 nits. When you don't have a TV with such nits output and you setup for example MadVR on 4000 nits you will see just lower bright image keeping the same contrast, details and higher range.

When you see a high graded HDR with 400 nits you will have LESS brightness than commercial 1200 nits graded = it will look more realistic and pleasant to watch. Contrast is gonna be better and details are going to be a lot better. Not to mention the color ouput, higher nits graded HDR makes color look fantastic. But hey, they want you to buy super displays with crazy post processing chips. It just doesn't fits.

And about this:
MadVR shows average light at 7K- as far as I can tell this is way to high for an average value. All these high values are just for peaks and TVs can display them for short time at 5% of the screen. Your "crazy" masters would not work with any TV out there, including Dolby 10K screen.

That's completely non sense. Higher graded nits HDR is gonna look better not worse. It will look better anywhere, not just on a dolby 10k screen. It will look better even on Oleds which only can output about 640 nits.

You don't understand how HDR works.

This is a test for Avatar graded in 10K Nits with MadVR output in 400 nits.

Watch out for the color reproduction and it's even toned down in 25% with preserve hue.

Watch out for the sun rays over the jungle, actually watch out for everything.

It looks a lot better OFF youtube, but you get the idea.

https://youtu.be/flrYLCtE_yA

This is why higher graded nits HDR looks better, because it expands the HDR to it's limit ( 10K nits for ST. 2084 ) . But like i said before, they want you to buy super displays with crazy things to make color amazing = marketing and people running to buy the new tv with crazy color.

[kolak]

There is something not right here. I get that 10K grade can be adjusted to 1K, 2K, 4K screen, but you are actually asking to watch it on TV without HDR mode, so it actually peaks maybe at 500nits. Clearly direct grade to 500nits can be optimised for best possible look. You clearly rely on madVR processing a lot to bring your crazy grades to more realistic world:)

Also- stretching your Rec.709 8bit BD source to 10K is asking for a lot of interpolation and this is later squeezed back by madVR.

If something looks great when converted by madVR from 10k to 2K then the same thing should look even better when converted directly to 2K (you have more control over whole conversion).

I've seen 4K nits image and it has big impact on your eyes. Brighter image is seen as "more saturated" as it stimulates your brain differently.
What you are doing is "flat HDR". If you have average light at 7K then your bright spots/moments won't be seen very bright at all as there is not enough difference to peak at 10K. This is exactly what HDR grade should not be about. Those peaks are reserved for few moments in the movie to give this kick and impact on viewer.
Your masters are bit unrealistic and because you have no way to see them as HDR on 10K screen you don't realise it. Typical street is probably no near these values even on bright day? Do you know what sort of values would this be? Rec.709 is very outdated and muted at 100nits, but we can't have 2H movie at average light of 7K as you won't be able to watch it.

Your amazing 10K HDR grade is clipped back to something like 400nits? (so that's why you have it at 7K by average, so you can enjoy constant video at e.g. 400nits which looks good) which at this moment has not much to do with real HDR. They are just very bright grades which will look better then Rec.709, but you can achieve this going directly to such a grade, not by some overdone, double stage process.

I would really like to give you ability to try to watch your 7K average grade master on Dolby 10K monitor, except it would be not possible as monitor would shut down due to overheating :)
I bet you you would not stand such a image for more than few minutes.
When it comes to real world TVs have ABL system which doesn't allow them to be to bright for to long time purely for energy use restrictions. Have you seen this:

http://uk.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/peak-brightness
?

Your problem is that you never saw your amazing 10K HDR (with 7K average light) master, but always see clipped version of it to e.g. 400nits?
I bet, you would not like you master if you were able to see it as is at perfect 10K TV.

[musicvideos4k]

There is something not right here. I get that 10K grade can be adjusted to 1K, 2K, 4K screen, but you are actually asking to watch it on TV without HDR mode, so it actually peaks maybe at 500nits. Clearly direct grade to 500nits can be optimised for best possible look. You clearly rely on madVR processing a lot to bring your crazy grades to more realistic world:)

Also- stretching your Rec.709 8bit BD source to 10K is asking for a lot of interpolation and this is later squeezed back by madVR.

If something looks great when converted by madVR from 10k to 2K then the same thing should look even better when converted directly to 2K.

I've seen 4K nits image and it has big impact on your eyes. Brighter image is seen as "more saturated" as it stimulates your brain differently.
What you are doing is "flat HDR". If you have average light at 7K then your bright spots/moments won't be seen very bright at all as there is not enough difference to peak at 10K. This is exactly what HDR grade should not be about. Those peaks are reserved for few moments in the movie to give this kick and impact on viewer.
Your masters are bit unrealistic and because you have no way to see them as HDR on 10K screen you don't realise it. Typical street is probably no near these values even on bright day? Do you know what sort of values would this be? Rec.709 is very outdated and muted at 100nits, but we can't have 2H movie at average light of 7K as you won't be able to watch it.

Your amazing 10K HDR grade is clipped back to something like 500nits (so that's why you have it at 7K by average, so you can enjoy constant video at e.g. 400nits which looks good) which at this moment has not much to do with real HDR. They are just very bright grades which will look better then Rec.709, but you can achieve this going directly to such a grade, not by some overdone, double stage process.

I would really like to give you ability to try to watch your 7K average grade master on Dolby 10K monitor, expect it would be not possible as monitor would shut down due to overheating :)
I bet you you would not stand such a image for more than few minutes.
When it comes to real world TVs have ABL system which doesn't allow them to be to bright for to long time purely for energy use restrictions. Have you seen this:

http://uk.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/peak-brightness
?

HDR mode does not exists. What HDR TV does is turn on the TV preset with metadata from blu-ray movies/demos graded in HDR10/Dolby Vision. For Dolby Vision it also uses a chipset, it's all about making proprietary every HDR processing and sell it to you and sell TV's.

MadVR does not limit anything, it process the HDR signal back to specific nits output, balancing the image with preserve hue's and compressing highlights ( to make it fit on specific nits display ).

The Image is going to look a LOT better than ANY SDR content.

This is not flat HDR, i watch this same movie in my display nits and it looks better than ANY commercial HDR movie by just making MadVR processing it + my personal TV preset for HDR.

That video on YT you just saw is from Avatar 10K graded being processed by MadVR on 400 nits and 25% Preserve Hue / Compressing the Highlights. The image looks completely different than the SDR version of the same movie at the same display output/calibration.

You can't generate the same output with ANY tv/monitor/real time tweaks or whatever, because the signal is being processed from a 10 HDR native graded stream.

There's new info, new range, new color gamut and new curve. Everything changes.

You don't understand what MadVR does with HDR native streams.

"I would really like to give you ability to try to watch your 7K average grade master on Dolby 10K monitor, expect it would be not possible as monitor would shut down due to overheating :)"

That's how they do it. If you play my HDR streams on any HDR TV it will look better than any other. Im trying to make you understand, if i get a good camera to record from the screen it won't be accurate either as in real person, but i will try to find one and record from TV screen, you will see you were all wrong the whole time here.

[musicvideos4k]

Your problem is that you never saw your amazing 10K HDR (with 7K average light) master, but always see clipped version of it to e.g. 400nits?
I bet, you would not like you master if you were able to see it as is at perfect 10K TV.

Clipped version? You really don't get it. It never clips, that's the whole point. OMG. Even on YT and at 400 nits MadVR you can see everything expanded and NO CLIPPING. Please man go watch avatar for Christ sake.

[kolak]

Yes, MadVR converts to some nits, but your TV (if not in HDR mode) will be no near these values. You have so many variables:
Rec.709 master->10K HDR->madVR processing->TV processing which changes whole image based on it's own ability and processing.
Do you see my point? Your HDR 10K grade becomes just some video with e.g. 400nits by average. I think you like your version because by average it's much brighter than HDR content out of studios. It just have big impact on you due to brightness. Point it that your 10K (7K average) numbers translates to something totally different when seen on TV.
Studio masters are done the way so HDR TV can actually display it as intended. There is not a chance any TV can do it with your HDR 10K master (forget about madVR processing), neither you would really like to watch it if such a TV would exists. I would hurt eyes.

[kolak]

Clipped version? You really don't get it. It never clips, that's the whole point. OMG. Even on YT and at 400 nits MadVR you can see everything expanded and NO CLIPPING. Please man go watch avatar for Christ sake.

Re-scaled, not clipped. Wrong word.

[musicvideos4k]

Yes, MadVR converts to some nits, but your TV (if not in HDR mode) will be no near these values. You have so many variables:
Rec.709 master->10K HDR->madVR processing->TV processing which changes whole image based on it's own ability and processing.
Do you see my point? Your HDR 10K grade becomes just some video with e.g. 400nits by average. I think you like your version because by average it's much brighter than HDR content out of studios. It just have big impact on you due to brightness. Point it that your 10K (7K average) numbers translates to something totally different when seen on TV.
Studio masters are done the way so HDR TV can actually display it as intended. There is not a chance any TV can do it with your HDR 10K master (forget about madVR processing), neither you would really like to watch it if such a TV would exists. I would hurt eyes.

HDR mode on TV's also converts to the display nits from the TV man. If the HDR TV has got 1000 * Samsungs SUHDs * the HDR is toned down to peak 1000 nits.

MadVR simulates HDR TV's processing, letting you choose what Nits to display as peak. The same as the "HDR MODE" from TV does with their display real peaks.

HDR is always better from higher grade nits, the " HDR MODE " only fits to the real display nits. The image you get changes in quality depending how it was graded, and that's why Samsung created the HDR1000 or Dolby the Dolby Vision.

If it were like you say, there would be no HDR proprietary processings at ALL. Because every single HDR processing is based on the same thing i do : ST. 2084.

Please, it's supposed you work for " sony ". Don't make me go on.

[musicvideos4k]

Re-scaled, not clipped. Wrong word.

There's no re scale, it fits the nits you select. Just like the TV's does with their " HDR MODES ".

The difference is HDR10 movies are going to have "LESS HDR" or just like you mistyped " FLAT HDR " than a higher grade one.

Maybe im talking in japanese and you can't get it.

And for the Record, Dolby Vision sometimes peaks at more than 4000 nits grading. Samsung's HDR1000 sometimes even peaks at 10k NITS. ( demos you can even download ) . And those HDR1000 demos are the best looking of them all. Do you know why?

[kolak]

Yes, but studios do it the way so master fits to TVs capabilities. They do it realistic. This is the reason why we have still Rec.709 as some TVs still can't even do this in terms of color space.
Studios can start grading to P3 tomorrow, but 90% of people will see desaturated picture, so what is the point? You have to be realistic and work to some standard which TVs can meet at least in some realistic margin.
Ok- again. Your 10K HDR grade, madVR set to 3K- what is the peak on your TV during bright scene? 400nits? It may not be even this if your TV is not in HDR mode.

Because new Samsung TVs peak above 1000, up to 1500?
Demos are made for specific TVs. This is the difference with studio work. They don't do things for a specific TV, but try to do according to some standard, so many TVs can display it as intended.

[musicvideos4k]

Yes, but studios do it the way so master fits to TVs capabilities. They do it realistic. This is the reason why we have still Rec.709 as some TVs still can't even do this in terms of color space.
Studios can start grading to P3 tomorrow, but 90% of people will see desaturated picture, so what is the point? You have to be realistic and work to some standard which TVs can meet at least in some realistic margin.
Ok- again. Your 10K HDR grade, madVR set to 3K- what is the peak on your TV during bright scene?

"They do it realistic" . WTF man? There's only possible way to grade HDR up to 10K nits and it's the same freaking way i do it.

Im using ST. 2084 not some HDR transfer characteristics that i invented on my garage.

It fits the same standard because it's the same freaking HDR processing.

You don't understand how even TV's peaks to 1000 and playback up to 10K nits graded that looks BEST than lower grade. It's the same grading i do.

And mine looks extremely realistic, the problem is you didn't watch it on your "HDR TV".

[kolak]

Your HDR 10K mazing master, bright scene what is the output from your TV?

[musicvideos4k]

Your HDR 10K mazing master, bright scene what is the output from your TV?

What do you mean output? I watch it on mine on 700 nits, which is the peak i found from the display. And it looks wonderful.

I will make a clip for you to try out on yours with the same settings i use. Then feel free to compare with with any HDR movie you got on there.

[kolak]

So imagine this peak at 10K :)

So you average is probably at 500?
This will be most likely higher than typical studio HDR movie, so that why you call your version "higher grade" They just don't push average to high.
So your TV is not really good- 700 for peak is quite poor.

[musicvideos4k]

So imagine this peak at 10K :)

So you average is probably at 500?
This will be most likely higher than typical studio HDR movie, so that why you call your version "higher grade" They just don't push average to high.
So your TV is not really good- 700 for peak is quite poor.

I really don't know if you are trolling right now or whatever.

I have explained to you how HDR works from 1 to 10.
I have explained to you how TV HDR works by toning down the original HDR graded stream up to 10000 nits ( such as Samsung's HDR1000 demos ) or Dolby Vision movies ( up to +4000 ) to the top display nits from the HDR "TVs" which are actually SDR panels: from 600 to 1500? .

Oleds have got no more than 640 top peak nits and they can play HDR10 movies with 1200 peak nits. Because the Software tones it down to 640 top peak nits by default.

The SUHD Tv's from 2016 line up are top 1000 nits. Software HDR tones it down to 1000 to play ANY hdr movie.

MadVR tones down up to whatever nits you want , because it's an open source software for HDR. The same you get on proprietary TV's but there you cannot change the display nits, it goes down to the real nits output from the display by Factory setting, so you get the "best possible HDR image", toned down from any graded HDR stream.

My movies are just like HDR1000 samsung demos toned up to 10k nits. Where those demos can be played on ANY HDR TV because the software tones down to the TV display nits for playback.

The same you do with my streams graded up to 10K and playback with MadVR ( same method the TVs do ) to your display nits.

I have 2 TV's one 4k's the other oled TV. I find better looking the 4K TV with 700 ( average ) nits. Because HDR looks best on higher nits displays , oled's just better black reproduction and color.

Are you learning now?

[kolak]

If studio master is done up to 1000 with rather low average most TVs won't touch it and will be displayed as intended.

[musicvideos4k]

If studio master is done up to 1000 with rather low average most TVs won't touch it and will be displayed as intended.

Dolby Vision movies are graded up to 4000. Any HDR TV is SDR and it has the same method for HDR output as MadVR: HDR to SDR toning down the nits and compressing highlights.

Don't tell me you didn't know that. As far as i know , you didn't. And that's why you were crying all the way from my first post on here.

A "REAL" HDR tv would have to be up to 10000 nits peak, from where ST. 2084 peaks and that would be " real HDR TV ". Otherwise, it's just the same as MadVR.

[kolak]

Dolby idea is to have controlled environment. Every Tv with DolbyVision has Dolby chip, so their processing from 4K to lower nits is done always the same way. When they grade they can simulate it and know how it will look at lower nits. Again, to have control and at least some idea how it will look at consumer TV.
This is also the reason why most TV companies don't want DolbyVision- they don't want their TV look the same as competition and also they don't want to pay Dolby licensing fees.

I still don't get how 10K master toned down to 3K is better than optimised 3K master, which TV interprets to its capabilities anyway :)

[musicvideos4k]

Dolby idea is to have controlled environment. Every Tv with DolbyVision has Dolby chip, so their processing from 4K to lower nits is done always the same way. When they grade they can simulate it and know how it will look at lower nits. Again, to have control and at least some idea how it will look at consumer TV.
This is also the reason why most TV companies don't want DolbyVision- they don't want their TV look the same as competition and also they don't want to pay Dolby licensing fees.

I still don't get how 10K master toned down to 3K is better than optimised 3K master, which TV interprets to its capabilities anyway :)

You are kidding me.

I can also know how it looks at lower nits when i grade. Because i use freaking MAdVR for toning down the nits. Exactly like the "dolby chip" does.

Man, you just don't get it.

There's no such thing as optimized 3K Master. A good HDR video is better when graded higher nits. Because the freaking ST. 2084 spec goes up to 10K, if you grade lower you just get limited range.

Please man, i thought you had a little idea about this but now i see you are completely newbie on HDR.

[kolak]

You can't know as your TV does 700nits peak, so how can you know how 3K is going to look? You assume a lot and just know how it looks on your TV.

You are stretching your Rec.709 source all the way up to 10K and few moments later squeeze it back to eg 1K. For me this can only cause more bad then good, specially if you have no high quality source.
Based on what you have said there is 0 point to grade to 1K, 2K, 4K- all should be graded to 10K and then let TVs do processing. Remember, there is no madVR with BD or when you play HDR files from USB- all done by TV.
Yet, no one in industry grades to 10K, but to realistic numbers based on TVs capabilities.
Sorry, but I'm not convinced that I have to use whole ST. 2084 range in order to get the best possible from current TVs (maybe in the feature people will be using whole range).

Tone mapping or any additional processing should be avoided if possible- not forced all the time.

Aslo- if all processing in the chain is perfect you should see no difference on your TV with any setting in madVR above e.g. 1K. Only when you start limiting it < your TV capabilities then it should show some real difference.

[musicvideos4k]

You can't know as your TV does 700nits peak, so how can you know how 3K is going to look? You assume a lot and just know how it looks on your TV.

You are stretching your Rec.709 source all the way up to 10K and few moments later squeeze it back to eg 1K. For me this can only cause more bad then good, specially if you have no high quality source.
Based on what you have said there is 0 point to grade to 1K, 2K, 4K- all should be graded to 10K and then let TVs do processing. Remember, there is no madVR with BD or when you play HDR files from USB- all done by TV.
Yet, no one in industry grades to 10K, but to realistic numbers based on TVs capabilities.
Sorry, but I'm not convinced that I have to use whole ST. 2084 range in order to get the best possible from current TVs (maybe in the feature people will be using whole range).

Tone mapping or any additional processing should be avoided if possible- not forced all the time.

Aslo- if all processing in the chain is perfect you should see no difference on your TV with any setting in madVR above e.g. 1K. Only when you start limiting it < your TV capabilities then it should show some real difference.

Oh please can you just stop talking like if you know what you are saying. It makes you look completely ridiculous.

I can because MadVR limits image to any nits output, it doesn't matter if your display " CANT SHOW REAL PEAK ON YOUR EYES " the video is going to look " less bright " when your display can't show specific nits output.

But you can see how it actually looks and you can even measure peaks as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7JHVq_oK_w

That is MadVR con 3500 nits peak and DCI-P3.

Now show me the UHD Blu Ray HDR looks " WAY BETTER " than mine because? They graded it? Come on...

HDR Grading is just that and you can test it with MadVR just fine. The problem is you have ZERO idea about all this.

You thought TVs are HDR, with that i leave you thinking that the next time please have some self respect.

[kolak]

Told you many times- your work has nothing to do with grading, you're just making images brighter so they look nice on your TV.
That's about it.

[musicvideos4k]

Told you many times- your work has nothing to do with grading, you're just making images brighter so they look nice on your TV.
That's about it.

LOL.

Do you even know what grading is about?

I can show you the same scene with different nits grading and it will look on a different range on every nit settings = grading.

You really have zero idea but you keep pushing it. Don't make me show you 10 shots from 400 to 10000 nits and make you look really bad publicly.

And my movies doesn't look nice on my TV. They look nice everywhere. That's about HDR transfer grading. The problem is you don't know how to do it and you bitch about it like some kid.

Here's from 400 to 4000 nits same scene, same power curve. Only changing the MadVR Internal HDR limiter nits.

http://imgur.com/a/uswi6

Yes i do movies just to make it look nicer on my tv. For Christ sake.

And please go watch The Shallows on Blu Ray 1080p SDR. That's from where i do it, and when you come back apologize.

[kolak]

Sorry, I need to see grabs every 1 nit.

[musicvideos4k]

Sorry, I need to see grabs every 1 nit.

You can't see, i don't even know why i keep on replying to you anyway lol.

I told you to explain and show and proof the commercial HDR version is better than what i do or at least prove mine is "for my TV" like you say every single 2 posts.

You can't, because it doesn't looks bad anywhere, even on your screen it looks just fine. And that's exactly why you keep on trolling on here every day. Otherwise you would just leave it on the first post you did here about my "flat not real not graded HDR" (????):p

Peace.

[Asmodian]

The hue is changing a lot in your examples, don't you care what color things are?

[musicvideos4k]

The hue is changing a lot in your examples, don't you care what color things are?

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXiVwgLQR7A

I didn't know Avatar were not blue. Yet another funny doomer. They don't stop appearing !

Everything i show is either YT or jpeg images, if you watch the native stream it looks 10 times better, but im sure you didn't know that either.

Show me Avatar looking better and we continue to talk, otherwise you are another kolak guy to me.

[surami]

@musicvideos4k
Could you stop please? Write posts about encoding methods or please open another topic for your things.

You can't make real 10bit HDR BT.2020 4:2:0 from 8bit SDR BT.709 4:2:0, because you don't have the extra base information: +2-8bits more, wider color gamut and "higher" chroma subsampling. You need intermediate file (10bit+ master, hopefully with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling or 16-32bit RGB frames and wide color gamut) to do something and you have to grade it in editing programs (HDR mode).

What you do is simple fake, that's it.

[kolak]

No, he has madVR and magic wand so he can make 10x better HDR masters from Rec.709 compressed sources with Rec.2020 or P3 gamut (even if his TV can probably display just bit more then Rec.709- so how on earth does he see all additional colors?) than studios which have access to RAW camera assets and actually can see what they do on properly calibrated e.g. 2K nits monitor :)
Studios, you and all others know nothing about HDR- he is HDR-Gandalf, master of fake HDR which will soon rule the world :) He has done impossible- 8bit Rec.709 to real 10bit Rec.2020. You can shoot now with anything, e.g. phone, send it to him and he will make amazing 10K HDR master from it. Looks like RED, Sony and Arri etc. are out of business.

On more time- moderators please clean this thread. Delete all from last post about x265/ffmpeg commands.

[musicvideos4k]

@musicvideos4k
Could you stop please? Write posts about encoding methods or please open another topic for your things.

You can't make real 10bit HDR BT.2020 4:2:0 from 8bit SDR BT.709 4:2:0, because you don't have the extra base information: +2-8bits more, wider color gamut and "higher" chroma subsampling. You need intermediate file (10bit+ master, hopefully with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling or 16-32bit RGB frames and wide color gamut) to do something and you have to grade it in editing programs (HDR mode).

What you do is simple fake, that's it.

Oh sure i do, it's fake because you don't know how the whole process is done? the problem is you and anybody here knows how to do it. Be free to find the movie and watch it yourself and compare it, about +1500 people already watched my movies = better hdr. Like it... or not. There's no more to movies than watching it. If it looks good, then you must shut up and enjoy it. That's how i see things.

The problem is you see things "thinking" they do it better because ... bla bla bla bla bla blah and more blah. They can do it from " higher masters " and do it wrong too. You can do HDR from 709 8bits just fine if you know how to expand and dither the way i do it, the same a 8bit dither can look as good as 10 bit. Cheers.

[musicvideos4k]

No, he has madVR and magic wand so he can make 10x better HDR masters from Rec.709 compressed sources with Rec.2020 or P3 gamut (even if his TV can probably display just bit more then Rec.709- so how on earth does he see all additional colors?) than studios which have access to RAW camera assets and actually can see what they do on properly calibrated e.g. 2K nits monitor :)
Studios, you and all others know nothing about HDR- he is HDR-Gandalf, master of fake HDR which will soon rule the world :) He has done impossible- 8bit Rec.709 to real 10bit Rec.2020. You can shoot now with anything, e.g. phone, send it to him and he will make amazing 10K HDR master from it. Looks like RED, Sony and Arri etc. are out of business.

On more time- moderators please clean this thread. Delete all from last post about x265/ffmpeg commands.

Find the movies and watch it, then you can buy me a beer.

[Asmodian]

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXiVwgLQR7A

I didn't know Avatar were not blue. Yet another funny doomer. They don't stop appearing !

Everything i show is either YT or jpeg images, if you watch the native stream it looks 10 times better, but im sure you didn't know that either.

Show me Avatar looking better and we continue to talk, otherwise you are another kolak guy to me.

Very convincing reply. I had no idea YT looked worse than the native stream. :rolleyes:

I was simply commenting on what I saw in your examples posted here. "blue" is not one color, there are a lot of shades of blue and your process seems to change the color A LOT. If I had a calibration that was that off in hue I would call it a failed calibration and not use it to watch anything. If you don't care what color things are as long as they are still "blue" or "red" or "green" then OK.

[musicvideos4k]

Very convincing reply. I had no idea YT looked worse than the native stream. :rolleyes:

I was simply commenting on what I saw in your examples posted here. "blue" is not one color, there are a lot of shades of blue and your process seems to change the color A LOT. If I had a calibration that was that off in hue I would call it a failed calibration and not use it to watch anything. If you don't care what color things are as long as they are still "blue" or "red" or "green" then OK.


OMG you are worse than the other guy. HOW THE HELL you know what BLUE is an AVATAR if it's a freaking fantasy computer animated creature? The HDR makes more gamut over the same blue color, there's no perfect BLUE for the HDR gamut, if it's blue and it's more "HDRISH" then it's just fine. When it's red and it's a nicer RED with expanded gamut then it's also fine.

See why people like you never do anything creative and innovative AT ALL? because you think the wrong way everything, thinking there's something perfect that "fits" when you are talking about being creative and animated creatures for Christ sake.

BUT WAIT, if the FOX guys tones the BLUE as they like , then it will be PERFECT, right? Because that's how you think. A little self respect.

Youtube is not what i told you to watch, find my movies and watch the actual streams.

Movies are toned in BT. 2020 , you can setup DCI-P3 or even use any TV color reproduction and it will look just fine.


Now go to the street and feel the air for a while, don't tell me air isn't good either because it feels different on every country.

:devil:

[Groucho2004]

the problem is you and anybody here knows how to do it.
Do what? And, if anybody here knows how do do "it", why would that be a problem?
The problem is you see things "thinking" they do it better becauseWhat?


At this stage it would seem that you just produce sentences with randomly chosen words. Again, you announced about 15 times that you would never post here again because nobody understands you, yet you keep posting your drivel and insults. You seem desperate to receive some validation for your colouring experiments but I can assure you that you won't get it here.

[musicvideos4k]

Do what? And, if anybody here knows how do do "it", why would that be a problem?
What?


At this stage it would seem that you just produce sentences with randomly chosen words. Again, you announced about 15 times that you would never post here again because nobody understands you, yet you keep posting your drivel and insults. You seem desperate to receive some validation for your colouring experiments but I can assure you that you won't get it here.

Oh shut up for once you always come to threads saying nothing but trolling people. Did you ever do something creative in your entire digital video life? NO, just threads with plugins. Get a life.

[Groucho2004]

Oh shut up for once you always come to threads saying nothing but trolling people. Did you ever do something creative in your entire digital video life? NO, just threads with plugins. Get a life.
I must have hit a nerve there... :cool:

[musicvideos4k]

I must have hit a nerve there... :cool:

Not really , im just having fun, you can't even realize that either.

Fact is people here always thinks they know everything or they "know" the perfect "blue" the perfect " balanced image " the perfect " HDR grading " they always know what's best.

But hey... they are nobody. And they don't know anything actually.

This guy kolak complaining about HDR and he didn't know TVs HDR are SDR.

The other guy complaining about blue HUE on Avatar Creature.

Then comes you the clown that never does anything interesting at all. Anyway, it's really funny actually.

[kolak]

BUT WAIT, if the FOX guys tones the BLUE as they like , then it will be PERFECT, right? Because that's how you think. A little self respect.




This is the part which you don't get. During grading session with director final look is decided and this the way how movie should look like on every TV/cinema etc. If later in the time technology changes then (if there is money) they repeat process again and do new version e.g. HDR which is approved by the director.

You can create million of other looks, but they are all wrong- do you get it? This is the reason why people complain when they see noticeable difference between cinema and eg. Blu-ray version. They expect all version to match cinema which is most likely closest to what director intended due to controlled environment.

[musicvideos4k]

This is the part which you don't get. During grading session with director final look is decided and this the way how movie should look like on every TV/cinema etc. If later in the time technology changes then (if there is money) they repeat process again and do new version e.g. HDR which is approved by the director.

You can create million of other looks, but they are all wrong- do you get it? This is the reason why people complain when they see noticeable difference between cinema and eg. Blu-ray version. They expect all version to match cinema which is most likely closest to what director intended due to controlled environment.

Yes and that's why you don't get it. I don't care AT ALL about the director, because im not the director. I want to be creative and if you like it or not then it's not my issue, other people do likes it, it happens with anything. Some people likes it, some hates it and some vomits on it.

Who cares about the directors? I do it for my pleasure and if it someday someone gets interested, then good. If not, then good too.

Because im having fun with what i like. That's the difference with you and me and the other guy with the perfect blue for avatar creatures.

And there's no blue color for CINEMA. CINEMA can be IMAX or even HDR soon. WTF are you talking about man. GOD.

The guy with the perfect blue is not gonna do anything interesting in his entire life, and i can bet on it.

[kolak]

Not really , im just having fun, you can't even realize that either.

Fact is people here always thinks they know everything or they "know" the perfect "blue" the perfect " balanced image " the perfect " HDR grading " they always know what's best.

But hey... they are nobody. And they don't know anything actually.

This guy kolak complaining about HDR and he didn't know TVs HDR are SDR.

The other guy complaining about blue HUE on Avatar Creature.

Then comes you the clown that never does anything interesting at all. Anyway, it's really funny actually.


I've seen masters on 4K nits screen. It's you who grades to 10K but watches SDR versions of it on your 700nits TV. And you talk about HDR mastering (it's not grading definitely) if you can't even see 1:1 results of your work? Fact that madVR can process it further means nothing- you have not seen a proper HDR image of your masters as you have no HDR TV, so please stop telling everyone about HDR amazing look.
Go to one of the shows (NAB, IBC) where you can actually see 4K nits TV and how HDR master looks like. Maybe after this you will stop making your HDR masters with 7K average light, which would be unwatchable at 1:1.
And stop talking about Rec.2020 gamut as your masters are Rec.709+ some interpolated colors, which has NOT MUCH to do with image which really covers Rec.2020 gamut.

[musicvideos4k]

I've seen masters on 4K nits screen. It's you who grades to 10K but watches SDR versions of it on your 700nits TV. And you talk about HDR mastering (it's not grading definitely) if you can't even see result of your work? Fact that madVR can process it further means nothing- you have not seen a proper HDR image of your masters as you have no HDR TV, so please stop telling everyone about HDR amazing look.
Go to one of the show (NAB, IBC) where you can actually see 4K nits TV and how HDR master looks like. Maybe after this you will stop making your HDR master with 7K average light, which would be unwatchable at 1:1.

No you didn't see anything. "Masters" of what? made by who? The GODS?

"Masters" are done by people. Not Gods. They can be wrong too. And there's no standards for coloring at all. Something can be blue less blue more blue... A LOT BLUE. There's no limits on being creative, MORE when you have BT. 2020 gamut to work on.

Then you talk about my work and you have never seen any native stream.

I think you have issues.

[kolak]

It's really irrelevant what was on the screen and how it was graded (even total crap, which it wasn't), but it was real P3 gamut and real 4K nits peaks, not your 700. Get it? It's about experience of seeing 4K nits peaks and overall such a bright screen.

Yes, that's why it's directors decision to stop at some point. Otherwise it could be endless process of changing it. It's artistic process )only in some aspects technical) and it meant to help story and movie to sell and give nice/unique feel.

I can't see your 1:1 work as I have no 10K display and I don't want to get blind :)

[musicvideos4k]

It's really irrelevant what was on the screen and how it was graded (even total crap, which it wasn't), but it was real P3 gamut and real 4K nits peaks, not your 700. Get it?

And you are able to distinguish real P3 Gamut from 2020? Are you god? Can you please tell me who is gonna win the next world cup, i need your help.

What 700? I have never did any 700 video. You are amazing. I want to be like you.

[musicvideos4k]

and it meant to help story and movie to sell and give nice/unique feel.

I can't see your 1:1 work as I have no 10K display and I don't want to get blind :)

nice unique feel because ? feel from who ? The director ? Directors most of time do crap and how you explain that ?

See why you are some kid in his room trying to believe he knows anything at all?

[kolak]

Forget about Rec.2020- this is just a theory for now and has not much to do with screens. They are no near there. If you had one then you should be able to see differences if colors would be from edges of Rec.2020. Your eye can see it.
If I can't see then what is the point for your to expand gamut to Rec.2020 in your amazing process? Make your mind.

[kolak]

nice unique feel because ? feel from who ? The director ? Directors most of time do crap and how you explain that ?

See why you are some kid in his room trying to believe he knows anything at all?

Because it's director's movie and someone has to make final decision. It's irrelevant if it's to blue or red or look to contrast etc.
It's not like every movie has to be punchy, contrasty. Some may be very desaturated, low contrast or even black an white. You think that huge range, contrast and a lot of saturation is what every movie needs. Have you seen Saving Private Ryan? Have you seen that clouds there are not blue but almost like grey?

If you want to play with look, shoot your now movie, grade it and master and then show us :) Then you can keep saying this is the best look as you will have right to say so :)

[musicvideos4k]

Forget about Rec.2020- this is just a theory for now and has not much to do with screens. They are no near there. If you had one then you should be able to see differences if colors would be from edges of Rec.2020. Your eye can see it.
If I can't see then what is the point for your to expand gamut to Rec.2020 in your amazing process? Make your mind. you do something which is pointless anyway (actually in your case it's pointless).

See why you get deeper into the oblivion of incoherent knowledge?

How you will be able to see "REAL P3" or even "REAL 2020" when TV's comes with nanocrystals or super chips to expand color and make it more "NICE"? See why you know nothing?

TV's do things to change color output for your enjoyment, or close. Means? They change the output to the display super nicer color processing, on EVERY TV one color is not the same as on the other. On OLEDs one color is not the same as on SUHD's. On SUHD's one color is not the same as on LG's IPS XXX model with their revolutionary image processing.

On Sony ? Well here we go deeper. Colors look completely different too. And we move on to the next?

YOU KNOW NOTHING, you can't distingish ANY gamut because every display shows it different with their respective technologies for color output.

One color is not the same color here and there. Tomorrow you get another color reproduction technology and today's TV's look different, worse? better? nobody cares.

There's no director that can manage to know how it will look on every single display with every single technology and panel/chipset for post processing the color.

I knew i was going to get you right here , and i did it. You are nobody.

[kolak]

This just shows that you know nothing about grading and color accurate monitoring.

It's irrelevant how TV "creates" colors. Different technologies are developed to make possible to display more an more colors (until we hit all what eye can see). TVs may do tons of processing but at the end they display final image which goes to the eyes and can be measured.

TVs changing colors? What are you talking about? TVs meant to display colors from either Rec.709 or now P3 color space, but because they are home screens (some very cheap) they are very inconsistent. Only good ones can be calibrated to actually have accurate color reproduction.
This is the bit which you totally don't get and understand. You should ideally buy high-end TV, calibrate it to P3 gamut assuming it can get there (don't ever use out of box settings, turn off all dynamic crap and enhancement). Once you validated that your TV hits P3 with quite decent accuracy then if you had a P3 master from studio you would see it very close to how director saw it during grading session on reference TV/projector. It's not going to be 100%, but very close. This is the whole point of grading and working to a standard (and having good calibrated TV). Got it?
In real world this is screwed as most TV can't even hit Rec.709, their default settings or totally wrong etc. But there are people who care, they buy good TVs, calibrate them, so (within TV limitations) they can see video as it was intended to look. Go it?
Other place is cinema. Cinemas are much better controlled (compared to peoples TVs), projectors are calibrated, masters are accurate and high quality, so this is the best what audience can see. Good cinema should give you the same look as director saw it during final grading. Got it?

Do you actually know what TV calibration is? It's irrelevant what technology TV uses to "create" colors, once you calibrate it (different TV have different abilities for very rough or accurate calibration) to eg. Rec.709 then it displays colors from this color space and "doesn't change any colors". You can measure it and validate- have you heard about probes for calibration?
Once you validated it's accurate it will stay like this- it will drift a bit over time, so you need to re-calibrate it. If you have master calibrated to Rec.709 colors are displayed accurately as there is 1:1 match. If TV is not calibrated then you have wrong image. You can't display P3 master on Rec.709 TV as it will be very inaccurate and oversaturated. Got it? Some TVs may have better blacks, better screen uniformity etc. so video will look slightly different, but at least red will be red on all calibrated TVs, not e.g. orange.

That's why studios use reference TVs (proiectors for film work as they really mainly care about cinemas) which are calibrated and validated with color probes regularly. So no, director doesn't know how movie look at every home, but he knows how it will look at cinemas and at homes where people have good TVs which are calibrated. He knows at least this. Rest of the people (looks like including you) have TVs set to dynamic mode, etc, so this is wildness :)

This still doesn't change fact that you need standard and reference TVs as otherwise you would have real mess. TVs may be far from perfect, but at least they are made to same standard, so by average all TVs offset each other- some to blue, some to red etc where master is in the middle. Without this you could have crazy blue masters (if director worked to crap TV) and if your TV happened to be very blue overall you would end up with unwatchable image. Got it?
This is why studios pay 20K$ for reference TVs or way more for good projectors.

So please stop this nonsense about perfection and amazingness of your HDR "up conversion" as there are many weak points in this process, with most important- your viewing setup. Also, stop insulting people from this forum as you use their processing/filters etc. madVR was created by guy "from" here and with forum help and input, so make your mind. You either respect them or insult. By doing both at the same time you make yourself looking stupid to the power of 10K nits :)

[musicvideos4k]

And you wrote all that copy pasted walltext saying nothing but the same incoherent oblivion. Yet again? Directora cant know how every cinema looks like in the entire world. Calibration is based on the tools, panels, light, size, reflections, panel types, you have got infinite calibrations and scenarios where image will be always different. Also the people can interpret colors one way and your tiny brain another, such as what looks good, or bad.

You dont know anything. And Save Private Ryan can look súper colorful on oleds, like crap on ips panels and flat on a cheap cinema.

I have every panel calibrated even by 10 point.

You dont like how tv changes colors? You watch without every single improvement? You watch movies in pc chroma 444? Then why you buy a 4k hdr tv?

Get lost.

[kolak]

You dont know anything. And Save Private Ryan can look súper colorful on oleds, like crap on ips panels and flat on a cheap cinema.


Get lost.
After your 10K HDR mastering, dynamic mode and saturation at 110% :)

Sorry, but you totally discredited yourself by saying this.

Here is even better one- it can look black and white!!!

Nothing more needs to be said.
:goodpost:

[musicvideos4k]

After your 10K HDR mastering, dynamic mode and saturation at 110% :)

Sorry, but you totally discredited yourself by saying this.

Here is even better one- it can look black an white!!!

Nothing more needs to be said.
:goodpost:

At the end you finally got it! Exactly, it can look black and white too, when somebody calibrates their TV to black and white because they just love it.

You really think you are superior to the point that you claim i watch red as orange.

Nothing more to be said, exactly. You said you hate how TV's change color, dynamic modes and so on full of incoherent kid with issues crap , but there we have you on a HDR topic talking about super dolby 10K nits watching experiences. You are nobody lol.

[Asmodian]

BUT WAIT, if the FOX guys tones the BLUE as they like , then it will be PERFECT, right? Because that's how you think. A little self respect.

Movies are toned in BT. 2020 , you can setup DCI-P3 or even use any TV color reproduction and it will look just fine.

What is the point of calibrating a display if not to match colors? The entire idea of standards such as P3 or BT.2020 is to have every color be the same on every screen and under every viewing condition, this is impossible but the intent is to get as close as technically possible.

Sure, people are happy to watch video with amazingly off color, it "looks just fine", but as soon as your blue is a different blue you are not matching DCI-P3 so why mention it as if you were following the standard?

[musicvideos4k]

What is the point of calibrating a display if not to match colors? The entire idea of standards such as P3 or BT.2020 is to have every color be the same on every screen and under every viewing condition, this is impossible but the intent is to get as close as technically possible.

Sure, people are happy to watch video with amazingly off color, it "looks just fine", but as soon as your blue is a different blue you are not matching DCI-P3 so why mention it as if you were following the standard?

Basically because what you say it's not blue on my streams, IT IS. It's blue, the red is red and the green is green, the yellow is yellow and so on.

Basically you are saying the colors are not calibrated because FOX didn't tone it but me.

And that makes you a complete incoherent person... did you figure out yet? Do you want me to show you the color picking palette for every toned blue, red, orange, yellow, green on my stream? Every color fits and exactly where it belongs, Sky, Grass, Trees, People skin, sun, water, ANYTHING looking correct palette. The problem is not my stream is you.

And calibration of displays it not mandatory either. If you watch my streams on a calibrated display it will look " calibrated " and just FINE. If you watch it with normal TV presets ( OFF ) it will also look fine like any other movie from studios which are playback on non calibrated TV presets. The same.

So, the problem is not what i do, the problem is basically your incoherent personality.

[Asmodian]

You have a very casual relationship to video. That is fine, most people do too, that is why "Vivid" modes exist in the first place. Just know that others aren't so casual and after paying attention to calibration details for years your videos look very "wrong" to us. I am very used to my displays following the standards very closely so when something is way outside them it looks off to me.

You cannot say they don't look wrong to me for the same reason I cannot say it is wrong for you to like it more, as you say the point is to have it look good to the viewer.

I am not sure what an incoherent personality is or why accusing me of having one could be used as an argument for your encoding method.

[Blue_MiSfit]

This thread has derailed into an uncivilized mess. I'm closing it. Please open a new thread if you want to continue discussion on encoding 4K HDR using 10 bit 4:2:0 HEVC and BT.2020.