BD Rebuilder 3D Blu Ray

[KarstenS]

True.

Have found an interesting software:

http://www.biohemmet.se/forum/viewtopic.php?id=245

This software is able to convert 3D BDs into MKV/AVI files and you can convert it into into individual files (2 mkv files. one for right and one for left eye), Side-By-Side and so on.

The interesting thing for BD-Rebuilder would be, how the software reads them. Maybe he would give you some advice for first steps how to make 3D BD support.

[deank]

We discussed the avisynth plugin in the first page of this thread. The problem is not reading the stereo information (SSIF) but re-creating it after encode/rebuild.

Converting 3D Blu-ray to stereo top/bottom, left/right or red/cyan, green/magenta anaglyph is not a problem and is already implemented.

Dean

[KarstenS]

We discussed the avisynth plugin in the first page of this thread. The problem is not reading the stereo information (SSIF)

Sorry. Then I didn't understood. I thought reading and decoding is also a problem. So I was in hope, it would help a little bit.

Other thing:

After I've ripped the BD, I got a folder with a size of 74,6GB. But double layer BD only can store up to 50GB. So I think the 2D data is stored physically once. But how to get it as it is? The magic is called "hard links". The 3D files contains natively only the extended 3D stuff, but reads out the 2D stuff by hard linking to the 2D playback files.

EDIT: The other direction seems to be the better idea. Not the SSIF file is linked to the m2ts. I think the m2ts file is, frame by frame, linked to the 2d stuff within the SSIF file, as also with a 3DBD continuous read should be possible.

[deank]

I posted about the physical sharing of SSIF files with m2ts files and that it will require ImgBurn author's collaboration at a later point to build proper ISO for 3D Blu-ray backups.

[icester]

I posted about the physical sharing of SSIF files with m2ts files and that it will require ImgBurn author's collaboration at a later point to build proper ISO for 3D Blu-ray backups.

Yes, but he will need the exact ssif file format.

I think it cost around US$ 800.

http://www.blu-raydisc.info/format-spec/rom3-spec.php

May be someone has a copy to share.


Mathew Orman

[deank]

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

[dirio49]

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean
Imgburn already supports this given that those two files are bit identical. The files will share the same physical sectors.

Optimise Duplicate Files

ImgBurn will look for and optimise duplicate files so that only one copy of that file actually exists in the image or on the disc.

Imgburn 2.2.0.0
Added: Build mode now has the ability to look for and optimise duplicate files so that only 1 copy of that
file actually exists in the ISO/on the disc.

[icester]

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

Well, if that was true the newly created ssif would work.
But according to this one spec the ssif is more complex.
See the public documentation at:

http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/samples/BDspec18780.pdf

Mathew Orman

[icester]

OK,
so the imgburn assumes ssif is defect free.
I was just hoping that someone knows how to create new ssif using the two base view and dependent view h.264 files.

Mathew Orman

[KarstenS]

The SSIF and M2TS are not exactly the same.

The SSIF contains the whole data for both views. The M2TS is only linking to one view within the SSIF file.

[icester]

The SSIF and M2TS are not exactly the same.

The SSIF contains the whole data for both views. The M2TS is only linking to one view within the SSIF file.
From the documentation it looks like both files are broken into 1 or more seconds long blocks and joined sequentially like LRLRLRLRL etc. So there must be a header in SSIF file that specifies the length of the blocks and starting block order and more.
But those are only speculations and in order to create or recreate such SSIF file one would need to know the exact file format specification.

Mathew Orman

[icester]

There is an US Patent filed by some Japanese company on electronic circuit of a BD3D Player. Patent reviles some of the SSIF file structure but unfortunately it does not list the byte size of all fields.
May be I should dig more at uspto.gov and may be there is a patent for such SSIF file.


Mathew Orman

[jdobbs]

OK,
so the imgburn assumes ssif is defect free.
I was just hoping that someone knows how to create new ssif using the two base view and dependent view h.264 files.

Mathew Orman That's something that has to be done at the time of the write... because you would have two file chains that are pointing to the same sectors. You can only do that if you are writing the disc output or are creating an ISO.

[icester]

That's something that has to be done at the time of the write... because you would have two file chains that are pointing to the same sectors. You can only do that if you are writing the disc output or are creating an ISO.
So you say that SSIF file on hard drive which is NTFS is the same as when creating UDF image?

In any case the program that creates the ISO or a disk folder need to know how to create SSIF file.
imgburn only converts ready disk folder to ISO.

Mathew Orman

[Stormcrow]

So you say that SSIF file on hard drive which is NTFS is the same as when creating UDF image?

In any case the program that creates the ISO or a disk folder need to know how to create SSIF file.
imgburn only converts ready disk folder to ISO.

Mathew Orman


I think the reason why we can't rip 3D BDs to HDD at a sensible size is that NTFS doesn't supports the same type of linking that UDF 2.5 does. It seems that the files on a UDF disk can have elements that point to the same actual physical sectors as others. When ripped, each file will replicate the full contents, and not simply appear as a link. Simple file copying is not good enough.

If the structure of UDF 2.5 can't be replicated under NTFS, then perhaps someone needs to write a driver that can create a virtual UDF drive contained within an NTFS or FAT file.

Then we can possibly rip to a virtual UDF drive which supports all the necessary linkages etc.

That may be total rubbish, of course.


--
SC

[dirio49]

If the structure of UDF 2.5 can't be replicated under NTFS, then perhaps someone needs to write a driver that can create a virtual UDF drive contained within an NTFS or FAT file.

Then we can possibly rip to a virtual UDF drive which supports all the necessary linkages etc.

That may be total rubbish, of course.


--
SC

I think the structure is created the same. Because if you think about it in the bd there are two files that are the same and same size. Just because they are linked in UDF.

As for the rip drive, i think it would be pointless.
So what you have two files that are the same.
when you burn or create the image the application with take care of the mirroring/linkage.

[icester]

I think the reason why we can't rip 3D BDs to HDD at a sensible size is that NTFS doesn't supports the same type of linking that UDF 2.5 does. It seems that the files on a UDF disk can have elements that point to the same actual physical sectors as others. When ripped, each file will replicate the full contents, and not simply appear as a link. Simple file copying is not good enough.

If the structure of UDF 2.5 can't be replicated under NTFS, then perhaps someone needs to write a driver that can create a virtual UDF drive contained within an NTFS or FAT file.

Then we can possibly rip to a virtual UDF drive which supports all the necessary linkages etc.

That may be total rubbish, of course.


--
SC

It seems that the BD driver is taking care of it or is it the ISO creator program?

If SSIF file has the same storage address as the m2ts then by erasing the mt2s files from stream directly should make the SSIF file pointing to NULL. But it is not becasue I have tested by erasing the m2ts files. The SSIF still plays the 2D file without audio if it is renamed to m2ts.

So how ImgBurn can creates correct SSIF file is a mystery.

Mathew Orman

[icester]

I think the reason why we can't rip 3D BDs to HDD at a sensible size is that NTFS doesn't supports the same type of linking that UDF 2.5 does. It seems that the files on a UDF disk can have elements that point to the same actual physical sectors as others. When ripped, each file will replicate the full contents, and not simply appear as a link. Simple file copying is not good enough.

If the structure of UDF 2.5 can't be replicated under NTFS, then perhaps someone needs to write a driver that can create a virtual UDF drive contained within an NTFS or FAT file.

Then we can possibly rip to a virtual UDF drive which supports all the necessary linkages etc.

That may be total rubbish, of course.


--
SC

Yes such UDF drive is used in DEAMON Tools.

Mathew Orman

[jdobbs]

So you say that SSIF file on hard drive which is NTFS is the same as when creating UDF image?

In any case the program that creates the ISO or a disk folder need to know how to create SSIF file.
imgburn only converts ready disk folder to ISO.

Mathew Orman I don't think I've ever seen a SSIF on a hard drive -- so I couldn't say. But my guess would be that it is a copy of both components of the SSIF on the blu-ray -- which isn't the same thing... unless of course you have a blu-ray that is big enough... but if you check them out you'll see that they would be more than the 50GB max.

[icester]

I don't think I've ever seen a SSIF on a hard drive -- so I couldn't say. But my guess would be that it is a copy of both components of the SSIF on the blu-ray -- which isn't the same thing... unless of course you have a blu-ray that is big enough... but if you check them out you'll see that they would be more than the 50GB max.

There is no restriction of minimum size on BD.
My examples are around 350 MB on 3DBD and 700 MB when stored on hard drive.
I can mount the ISO and play 3D movie using TotalMedia Theater 3D. I can burn the ISO into my BD-RE and play it using both PwerDVD 10 and TotalMedia Theater 3D.
Looks like ImgBurn ISO creator knows how to handle SSIF or else my 3DBD would not play.

Mathew Orman

[jdobbs]

There is no restriction of minimum size on BD.
My examples are around 350 MB on 3DBD and 700 MB when stored on hard drive.
I can mount the ISO and play 3D movie using TotalMedia Theater 3D. I can burn the ISO into my BD-RE and play it using both PwerDVD 10 and TotalMedia Theater 3D.
Looks like ImgBurn ISO creator knows how to handle SSIF or else my 3DBD would not play.

Mathew OrmanHuh? Who ever said anything about a minimum size? What you have to worry about is the maximum. You won't find any commercial 3D titles that are 350MB and 700MB... it's nice to have examples -- but that doesn't solve anything.

I'm getting a sense that you don't understand the real issue here... the problem is that without the ability to link both M2TS files at a virtual level (multiple links to the same sectors), you would have to have two copies of at least one side of the stereo images. It's doable, but that means you'd take a big hit in quality reduction.

[icester]

Huh? Who ever said anything about a minimum size? What you have to worry about is the maximum. You won't find any commercial 3D titles that are 350MB and 700MB... it's nice to have examples -- but that doesn't solve anything.

I'm getting a sense that you don't understand the real issue here... the problem is that without the ability to link both M2TS files at a virtual level (multiple links to the same sectors), you would have to have two copies of at least one side of the stereo images. It's doable, but that means you'd take a big hit in quality reduction.

That is not a problem at all as we have terabyte drives now.
Ripping 3DBDs is already solved as we have programs that create full HD 3D side by side on a hard drive.

The problem is creating 3DBDs as the cheapest program cost around US$7000.

That is why it is so important to find out the original structure of the SSIF file.

Mathew Orman

[jdobbs]

Okay... you missed the point again. Since you're obviously much smarter than I am, I'm out of this conversation. Good luck.

[icester]

Okay... you missed the point again. Since you're obviously much smarter than I am, I'm out of this conversation. Good luck.

Well,
if you are concerned about ripped output quality compared to the original on a 3DBD then you should not be as there is no loss at all.

If I am still missing the point then please give my some hints
as English is not my prime language.

I am an US citizen but born in Poland.


Mathew Orman

[k-c-ksum]

as the right eye MVC m2ts is relatively small compared to the left eye avc m2ts it could be possible to just re-encode the the avc m2ts video, leaving the mvc alone. The only other obsticle would be creating a new Siff file. The shrek movies are about 35gb in size with about 12 audio tracks, removing the dead wood tracks and re-encoding the left eye avc stream should yeild good pq. on a bd-25.

anyone have any idea how to create the siff file? its file size matches the combined left/right eye streams but is bogus as its just mirroring the disc sectors occupied by the m2ts files.

dvdfab can creates a side by side encode which is a half decent fix until full hd 3d is possible with freeware

[KarstenS]

I think the reason why we can't rip 3D BDs to HDD at a sensible size is that NTFS doesn't supports the same type of linking that UDF 2.5 does.

[...]

If the structure of UDF 2.5 can't be replicated under NTFS

NTFS is also supporting that type of linking. But no ripping tool make use of it. A simple filecopy with OS functions is much more easy than direct acessing the filesystem(s) and analyze the structure.

But an easy way to solve this problem is to ignore the m2ts file of the main movie completely.

As this linking list is only used for backward compatibility to non 3D BD players and this feature is optional, it would be easier to build 3D disks that contains the SSIF version only and put the 2D version away.

[jdobbs]

NTFS is also supporting that type of linking. But no ripping tool make use of it. A simple filecopy with OS functions is much more easy than direct acessing the filesystem(s) and analyze the structure. Unless you're planning to keep it on harddrive permanently, I don't think that really matters. What matters, I would think, is how it is written back out to BD. If I remember correctly, that was the point DeanK was making in post #54.

[deank]

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

Err... actually I made a mistake with the example... Last time I looked at 3d structure was months ago...

Yes, the ssifs have the data mirrored from 2 m2ts files, not from 1 only.

00001.m2ts --> 00001.ssif
00002.m2ts --> 00001.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts --> 00011.ssif
00012.m2ts --> 00011.ssif

[Saibling]

jdobbs, I'm with you!

The SSIF file can just describe the way to "Link" the original m2ts files - otherwise we would have m2ts left view + m2ts right view + ssif both view! if the SSIF was an own "multiview-file" then we would not need to have both of the m2ts files in addition to it...

the other - and i think BIGGER - problem will be to first find out which information is stored in the second (right) m2ts file... if i try to load it in any muxer i can't even have a look on it, because it doesn't open...

[Cedvano]

Hi everybody,

I would like to help you for 3D blu-ray.
I read all subjet and i found your answer interesting.

Do you know a good iso reader ?
I would like to change m2ts file in iso with a smaller file. And then, compare the size of SSIF.
If you theroy of linking MT2S file is good. The SSIF file be smaller when I replace the M2TS.

What do you think about it ?

[KarstenS]

When you rip the files in the ISO and delete the m2ts file, then the folder size should match the to the disk size.

Both to get rebuild will actually be hard because of missing ISO builder that supports that kind linking (but there must be one out there, as it gets used for the §DBDs that get sold).

But for movie only this would give some options. As the backwardcompatibility is an optional feature, it should be possible to chose between rebuild to 2D or rebuild as 3D only. In both ways no linking would be needed.

As Clown BD is able to demux both video streams out of the ssif file, I think both video streams are discrete and nothing like joint stereo.

And when it is possible to demux, it should be possible to mux to ssif.

If someone could make a small video with one of the new 3D camcorders, it should be possible to analyze the AVCHD output and use it as a preset for generating 3D movie only disks.

[Cedvano]

I search for a 3D AVCHD for analyse.
I would like to know if it's possible to make SSIF without make an ISO !

[jdobbs]

I search for a 3D AVCHD for analyse.
I would like to know if it's possible to make SSIF without make an ISO ! You can very easily copy a 3D disc to your hard drive including the SSIF folder. It will be much larger than the disc itself because of repeated sectors. Right now there is no way of which I'm aware to write it back out (except at the larger size with repeated sectors).

[Cedvano]

You can very easily copy a 3D disc to your hard drive including the SSIF folder. It will be much larger than the disc itself because of repeated sectors. Right now there is no way of which I'm aware to write it back out (except at the larger size with repeated sectors).

If I burn this copy (with larger SSIF) on a BD, I can read this with 3D effet on my TV ? I test it immediatly.
Edit 18:12: Tested and work fine.

Edit: Another question :
Have you see the file that follow the M2TS file ?
For shrek 2: There is 00000.m2ts (24Gb) then 00001.m2ts (10Gb)
I can't read this file. Is the Right Eye of 3D ??

[Saibling]

Cedvano, you're right, the second m2ts IS the second part of the 3D-view. The point is, that this one is only played, because the SSIF "includes it" into the first stream.

the next problem - apart from creating "repeating sectors" - for rebuilding a 3D-disc could be the handling of the "incomplete" second stream. But I think there are other 3D-programs (like DVDFab e.g.) that CAN handle this... so it should be possible to also work with it (for compressing)

[Cedvano]

Yes, I see that for the second stream.
When I add up the first M2TS with the second, I have the SSIF file.

I test for re-encoding the second stream and I have some conclusive tests. But I continue.

If you have the solution for creating ssif, I'm interested.

[Cedvano]

I advance.
I can reduce the 3D blu-ray putting everything in one m2ts files.

The M2TS is in AVC Multi. And I can read this in my 3D player like a commercial BD3D.

[Saibling]

What kind of "3D output" do you talk about? side by side (left right) or over under (top bottom), full size or half size, avc or mvc?!

[Cedvano]

What kind of "3D output" do you talk about? side by side (left right) or over under (top bottom), full size or half size, avc or mvc?!

It's full HD MVC. Not Side-by-side ou other.

[Saibling]

where did you get the mvc-coder?
are you able to get a real 3d blu ray structure or only to convert a 3d disc into a 3d m2ts file?

[Cedvano]

where did you get the mvc-coder?
are you able to get a real 3d blu ray structure or only to convert a 3d disc into a 3d m2ts file?

For now, I only convert 3D ssif to a 3D file M2TS (MVC).

My file can be read on BD player. Now, I search for convert 3D BD structure.

The advantage, I can reduce file (ex 100Mb to 48Mb) et have good quality.

I work on it.

For the MKV coder, I "theft" on Cyberlink Powerdirector MKV Codec.

[Cedvano]

And, for now, I can had only 1 audio.

[Saibling]

which software do you use to convert and "shrink" your file, that can also convert to mvc?
If you tell me, I would try for myself if I could come any further...

[KarstenS]

You can very easily copy a 3D disc to your hard drive including the SSIF folder. It will be much larger than the disc itself because of repeated sectors.

Only for disks, that are backward compatible to BD players without 3D function. With a clean 3D only disk, that makes no use of this featuren, you get a foldersize equal to the ISO size.

Thats the point. This m2ts file is only used on disks, that sould play also on BD players that are not 3D capable. There are many BD sets out there, for example by Disney, where are 2D and 3D version on separate disks. On this 3D disk, there is no linked m2ts file.

With these disks it should also be possible, to generate a full movie backup without thinking over this ISO linking stuff.

With other disks, which use this backward compatibility stuff, it should also work, when choosing between 2D or 3D version before rebuildung, with the result, that only this version would work later playing back the output.

[Cedvano]

No, when I take "The Beauty and the Beast 3D", the ISO take 37GB. But when I copy files, 67GB.

And it's a 3D only (not playable on 2D player).

[jdobbs]

That's not my experience either. I only have a couple of 3D discs for testing -- but both of them copy as a huge file structure with repeated data, while neither of them will play on a 2D player.

[tymoxa]

There are many BD sets out there, for example by Disney, where are 2D and 3D version on separate disks. On this 3D disk, there is no linked m2ts file.

It's not true. All BD3D disc is backward compatible with 2D players. Publishers just limit this possibility in BD-navigation. To back this compatibility you just need to edit MovieObject.bdmv.

[Ch3vr0n]

It's not true. All BD3D disc is backward compatible with 2D players. Publishers just limit this possibility in BD-navigation. To back this compatibility you just need to edit MovieObject.bdmv.

mind telling us what we need to edit? So they'll play 2D on a 2D only player while still enabling 3D capabilities?

[tymoxa]

mind telling us what we need to edit? So they'll play 2D on a 2D only player while still enabling 3D capabilities?
It's a little bit tricky.
We have to find where values of registers PSR 23/31 is transfered to some GPRs and replace PSRs with constant numbers.
We need BDedit for this.
Let's open folder in bdedit and look at MovieObject 0.
What we search for is on lines 11 and 16.
http://i32.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/1a/30136022c4e1c897c48b83087780cc1a.jpg (http://i32.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/7e/780af20b5bbd014dd44f53acac97077e.jpg)
Now we need to replace PSR31 to Imm 1245760
http://i27.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/13/b702c30422f2538a2c2892cb49246213.jpg (http://i30.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/33/c10952139c45aad6ac23273c73894f33.jpg)
and PSR23 to Imm 3
http://i29.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/d4/ddd1fbde102db0cf9cae9220b4617ed4.jpg (http://i31.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0207/de/a4b5ae1fdfb8e34c1fe0abfbfa8ee9de.jpg)
PSRs 23/31 must be replaced to this numbers everywhere in the code.
Now Save and check if it's playable as 2D disc.

[Cedvano]

Great, but I want to convert a 3DBD 50Gb to 3DBD 25Gb.

All 3DBD exist in 2DBD, I do not see the utility of making the conversion.

For now, I use Powerdirector 10, I remake menu and burn it to MVC disc (25GB).
I would like to take the MVC converter to make my own MVC convertor.

With this, I can reencode and safe Bonus.