NAL HRD has been committed!

[digitalvideo]

Hi Dark Shikari,

I can also help with authoring under scenarist if you need. I can also make any audio encoder and graph if you need.

Digitalvideo

[Emulgator]

Sony DVD-A 5.0b Build 180:

Tallship (first version) rejected, scheduled for transcoding as expected.
I removed Tallship.

Then straight project, 2 movies, BigBuckBunny and Elephant's Dream, no audio,
1 motion thumbnail menu, no menu audio (30s)

No transcoding scheduled.
Menu rendering went on, MUI generation went on,
(happy, I never came this far with something H-264 from outside Sony)

00001.m2ts seemed to mux properly
Then abort:

Dateiname: STREAM/00002.m2ts
Status: TSWrapper.dll::CTSWrapper::ProcThreadMain::Video buffer underflows. -

Continue to test.

[Emulgator]

bigbuckbunny alone, no audio:

Dateiname: STREAM/00001.m2ts
Status: TSWrapper.dll::CTSWrapper::ProcThreadMain::Video buffer underflows. -

[Emulgator]

Elephant's Dream alone without audio: Success !

Muxed to the end without transcoding.

DVD-A muxes only into .iso, so I mounted this using VirtualCloneDrive, playing from mounted .iso with PowerDVD7.3
Stuttery play (still have to find why, it worked smooth before with my own blu-ray compilations), but great picture quality.
Congratulations !

Edit: When stepping through the 00001.m2ts using VirtualDub and DGAVCDec, all frames are playable.
So I suspect PowerDVD and my CPU skipping some frames on decoding, although around 40% load.
More tomorrow...

[shon3i]

Status: TSWrapper.dll::CTSWrapper::ProcThreadMain::Video buffer underflows. - Wow, i will try with scenarist. Dark Shikari where i can find source of bigbuckbunny in one piece lossless? we can finaly reconstruct problem and probably find solution for this underflows.

[Dark Shikari]

Wow, i will try with scenarist. Dark Shikari where i can find source of bigbuckbunny in one piece lossless? we can finaly reconstruct problem and probably find solution for this underflows.I'm currently downloading http://blender-mirror.kino3d.org/peach/exr/ to re-encode Big Buck Bunny from 16-bit source (since 8-bit has banding up the ass).

The source I used was http://media.xiph.org/BBB/BBB-1080-png/.

[mp3dom]

Big Buck Bunny (the file on Dark Shikari's web space) + dts-HD MA mux without problem in Scenarist 5

[kolak]

Wow, i will try with scenarist. Dark Shikari where i can find source of bigbuckbunny in one piece lossless? we can finaly reconstruct problem and probably find solution for this underflows.

It was muxed fine in Scenarist, so not sure if there is real problem with this video.

[Emulgator]

Sonic/Roxio DVDitProHD 6.4 Build 641B03A:

All 3 clips (video only, no audio) scheduled for transcoding,
even in single movie project,
no matter if project is NTSC or PAL.
It does not look like there is something like a 24p/23.976p project expected.
Menu rendering can be set to 24.000/23.976fps,though, no success.

But this (DVDit) does not matter too much, I guess.
This piece was a PITA, no support, almost no fixes or updates and is abandoned anyway...

[Emulgator]

Adobe Encore CS3 Build 3.0.1.008:
No 24p projects. Blah.
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/421178?tstart=0

[Emulgator]

Ulead DVD-MF 6+ Build 6.00.0194.0:
Sees only MPEG-2 when to mux to HD-DVD.
Can not even import or read .avc, .264, .h264.

So it looks like Sony DVD-A is the way to go
for (almost) affordable Blu-ray authoring.

Let's hope that maintenance and updates may come in a bit more often than from competition...

[kolak]

Ulead DVD-MF 6+ Build 6.00.0194.0:
Sees only MPEG-2 when to mux to HD-DVD.
Can not even import or read .avc, .264, .h264.

So it looks like Sony DVD-A is the way to go
for (almost) affordable Blu-ray authoring.

Let's hope that maintenance and updates may come in a bit more often than from competition...

There is DVD MovieFactory Pro 7, which should work much better with BDs.

[Emulgator]

True, I picked this older version (MF6+) up intentionally because of its HD-DVD muxing capabilities,
and I thought I should have one before it is withdrawn. (40 USD only)
Good menu renderer by the way, played from HD-DVD folder to check if it would actually work.

[shon3i]

Big Buck Bunny (the file on Dark Shikari's web space) + dts-HD MA mux without problem in Scenarist 5

It was muxed fine in Scenarist, so not sure if there is real problem with this video.
Yes, same here even with LPCM audio. Duh, I guess I'll find some sample that i can send to Sonic Support for investigation

[Dark Shikari]

Here is (http://mirror05.x264.nl/Dark/intro.mkv) my short and simple intro for the Blu-ray disk (not the actual Blu-ray encode, obviously).

[MadMonkey57]

Here is (http://mirror05.x264.nl/Dark/intro.mkv) my short and simple intro for the Blu-ray disk (not the actual Blu-ray encode, obviously).

nice :)

Maybe it'd be a good idea to have 2 different versions of the Blu Ray Disc:

- typical Blu Ray (high video bitrate, DTS or HD audio, ...) e.g "--profile high --level 4.1 --vbv-maxrate 39000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --b-pyramid strict --slices 4 ..." or similar
- AVCHD compatible version (i.e patched index.bdmv, lower video bitrate, AC3 audio, ...) ready to burn on red laser DVDs, e.g "--profile high --level 4.0 --vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-bufsize 14500 --b-pyramid none" or similar

[Dark Shikari]

Actually, that's a good point. I'd like to be able to burn this on a DVD and make it playable in Blu-ray players. What are the extra VBV restrictions required for this?

And what does b-pyramid none have to do with AVCHD?

[MadMonkey57]

If I'm not mistaken, "--b-pyramid none" has to do with level 4.0.

VBV restrictions have been "guessed best" by many people authoring AVCHDs. I used to use 15000 for both VBV settings and it was OK. But deank (author of multiAVCHD) came to the conclusion that "--vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-bufsize 14500" is more compatible (feedback from multiAVCHD users).
Other people would probably explain this much better than me, but I believe these VBV restrictions have to do with the limited amount of bits that can be provided by the optical reader to the decoding chip when reading DVDs.

[Fr4nz]

If I'm not mistaken, "--b-pyramid none" has to do with level 4.0.

VBV restrictions have been "guessed best" by many people authoring AVCHDs. I used to use 15000 for both VBV settings and it was OK. But deank (author of multiAVCHD) came to the conclusion that "--vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-bufsize 14500" is more compatible (feedback from multiAVCHD users).
Other people would probably explain this much better than me, but I believe these VBV restrictions have to do with the limited amount of bits that can be provided by the optical reader to the decoding chip when reading DVDs.

I've also found that 15000 is a good value for maxrate and bufsize when encoding for BD-5.

[shon3i]

Nothing more than 15000/15000 and level 4.0 are required for BD 5/9 backups/encodings. 14745 value is more common for AVCHD/BD5/BD9 and it's maximum buffer for HDDVD.

I suggest these settings for demo disc:

--level 4 --ref 4 --keyint 24 (48 since max rate is <= 15000) --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 14745 or 15000 --vbv-bufsize 14745 or 15000 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --sar 1:1 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --b-pyramid strict --pic-struct

AVCHD version will just only have AC3 audio nothing more.

[MadMonkey57]

I know it's a little off-topic and the answer is probably elsewhere in the forum, but could you please explain --min-keyint 1 (my setting is always 2) and --pic-struct (unset in my own encodes).

Thanks

[mp3dom]

pic-struct is not strictly required for progressive contents but it's used by others pro encoders (personally I always use it for security reason)
min-keyint 1 allow two I frames to be adjacent (I-I-P-..). This 'could' be useful in some situations, maybe if the encoder is forced to put an I frame just before a scene change, so I-<scene change> I). Normally I think is quite difficult and even if it happens, the P frame could cover the scene change anyways. Personally I'm using min-keyint 2 too, just to avoid that continuous luma flashes (quite common in animation contents) could lead to continuos I frames thus lowering/reducing the quality of other frames (but I have red that x264 could recognize this kind of footage, anyway I don't think that the value of 1 or 2 could change the quality significantly)

[MadMonkey57]

pic-struct is not strictly required for progressive contents but it's used by others pro encoders (personally I always use it for security reason)
min-keyint 1 allow two I frames to be adjacent (I-I-P-..). This 'could' be useful in some situations, maybe if the encoder is forced to put an I frame just before a scene change, so I-<scene change> I). Normally I think is quite difficult and even if it happens, the P frame could cover the scene change anyways. Personally I'm using min-keyint 2 too, just to avoid that continuous luma flashes (quite common in animation contents) could lead to continuos I frames thus lowering/reducing the quality of other frames (but I have red that x264 could recognize this kind of footage, anyway I don't think that the value of 1 or 2 could change the quality significantly)
:thanks:

--level 4 --ref 4 --keyint 24 (48 since max rate is <= 15000) --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 14745 or 15000 --vbv-bufsize 14745 or 15000
--aud --nal-hrd vbr --sar 1:1 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --b-pyramid strict --pic-struct

I'm wondering about adding "--bframes 3" as well. It's x264 default but changed depending on "--preset" and "--tune". Again, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's required to be compliant. However, I don't know if --bframes 3 is implied by "--level 4"... (personally I always force --bframes 3 in my encodes).

[sneaker_ger]

"--level" does not change the number of bframes. (only number of ref frames)

[nixo]

This is probably dumb, but if --min-keyint 1 is allowed, what's the point of setting it at all?

--
Nikolaj

[deank]

I had some time today so I put all 3 movies in a Blu-ray disc compilation. Each video comes with DTS and DTS-HD (HR) audio (and Tallship with AC3, too).

http://multiAVCHD.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc.jpg

http://multiAVCHD.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc_2.jpg

http://multiAVCHD.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc_3.jpg

http://multiAVCHD.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc_4.jpg

Of course all done with multiAVCHD (which uses tsMuxeR). All works just fine in software players and Playstation 3.

+ the intro screen :)

The output is ~ 3.5GB but I can put it as a torrent download on my server for those who want to enjoy the quality of HD :)

[ChronoCross]

I would certainly participate in that download. I'm interested to see how this looks on my 52" connected to my PS3.

[shon3i]

This is probably dumb, but if --min-keyint 1 is allowed, what's the point of setting it at all?

--
Nikolaj
Default is 25, so if you set keyint to 24, you will probably get much i frames, and quality will drop.

[nixo]

Default is 25, so if you set keyint to 24, you will probably get much i frames, and quality will drop.

If I set keyint to 24 then keyint_min drops to 13. Also DS did not include it in his example in the commit message:
http://git.videolan.org/?p=x264.git;a=commit;h=c6de86497cdd7b7f3cce7d8a95d723c7d0c9f505

[shon3i]

If I set keyint to 24 then keyint_min drops to 13. Also DS did not include it in his example in the commit message:
http://git.videolan.org/?p=x264.git;a=commit;h=c6de86497cdd7b7f3cce7d8a95d723c7d0c9f505
But that is still to short GOP, 1-24 is not nothig much better but is probably better for overall quality. And if you use Long GOP (1-48) if you not set min_keyint, you will get short GOP then.

[Dark Shikari]

Min-keyint defaults fixed locally. It now defaults to "auto", which results in keyint_max / 10.

[deank]

I would certainly participate in that download. I'm interested to see how this looks on my 52" connected to my PS3.

Here we go...

Click to get the torrent file (http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc.torrent) (3.37GB).

If using with PS3 I'd suggest to transfer it to USB HDD and use AVCHDManager for 8.3 filenames. I'm not sure if these high bitrates will be okay if burning to DVD disc.

Dean

[Dark Shikari]

Awesome. Now I just have to finish downloading these EXR files and re-encode everything with DVD5 buffer sizes.

[C2D]

I'm downloading it as well, thanks mate! :)

[ChronoCross]

Here we go...

Click to get the torrent file (http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/x264_demo_disc.torrent) (3.37GB).

If using with PS3 I'd suggest to transfer it to USB HDD and use AVCHDManager for 8.3 filenames. I'm not sure if these high bitrates will be okay if burning to DVD disc.

Dean

Downloading. Should be interesting.

[Blue_MiSfit]

OK, will redo the encode with that source after making sure there's no banding issues.

Sorry to take things slightly OT, but I was hoping somebody could chime in on XScaler and give me some more info about this? Kolak mentioned it.

~MiSfit

[MadMonkey57]

If using with PS3 I'd suggest to transfer it to USB HDD and use AVCHDManager for 8.3 filenames. I'm not sure if these high bitrates will be okay if burning to DVD disc.

Dean

Awesome. Now I just have to finish downloading these EXR files and re-encode everything with DVD5 buffer sizes.

DS: make sure to choose a reasonably low bitrate as well to ensure playback on DVD. This site (http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html) suggests 18 mbps for the overall system (video+audio+M2TS overhead +/- 7%) bitrate on DVDs. Mulitple audio streams generally work but are out of standard. Same for DTS audio streams, subtitles, and menu. Never tried with HD audio streams but they are also out of standard.

[Biggiesized]

Sorry to take things slightly OT, but I was hoping somebody could chime in on XScaler and give me some more info about this? Kolak mentioned it.

~MiSfit
It's only one of the coolest scaling and dithering algorithm tools. Stacey Spears and Don Munsil wrote it many years ago and it was packaged into PSE as a pre-processing tool.

It accepts lots of input file formats and you can write the output file type in the Registry.

The results are quite amazing, but it comes with two costs:

1) It's really slow. Running Big Buck Bunny through it takes my computer hours and that movie is what, 10 minutes long?

2) The dithering process adds noise to the picture so that'll come at a much higher bit cost than simply rounding to a lower bit depth.

Send me a PM if you want to know more (so this thread can get less off-topic).

[Biggiesized]

DS, I know you can freely access the OpenEXR BBB files, but what are you using for Elephants Dream? I asked Ton from Blender how to get the source files and he told me I'd have to ship him an external hard drive.

[Dark Shikari]

DS, I know you can freely access the OpenEXR BBB files, but what are you using for Elephants Dream? I asked Ton from Blender how to get the source files and he told me I'd have to ship him an external hard drive.I have no idea. They're not online anywhere? What I've read around seems to imply that they are.

If he needs an external drive, I can ship him one.

[Biggiesized]

I looked all over Xiph and other places for the OpenEXR sequence. They only host the 8-bit rounded PNG sequence.

[Biggiesized]

Blue_MiSfit, here is an example of the difference between dithering down using xScaler and rounding:

ROUNDING (like you find in the source PNG sequence)

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8716/edround.th.png (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8716/edround.png)

DITHERING (OpenEXR --> xScaler --> PNG)

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/386/eddither.th.png (http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/386/eddither.png)

[Dark Shikari]

Blue_MiSfit, here is an example of the difference between dithering down using xScaler and rounding:

ROUNDING (like you find in the source PNG sequence)

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8716/edround.th.png (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8716/edround.png)

DITHERING (OpenEXR --> xScaler --> PNG)

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/386/eddither.th.png (http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/386/eddither.png)Where did you get that EXR?

[kolak]

It's only one of the coolest scaling and dithering algorithm tools. Stacey Spears and Don Munsil wrote it many years ago and it was packaged into PSE as a pre-processing tool.

It accepts lots of input file formats and you can write the output file type in the Registry.

The results are quite amazing, but it comes with two costs:

1) It's really slow. Running Big Buck Bunny through it takes my computer hours and that movie is what, 10 minutes long?

2) The dithering process adds noise to the picture so that'll come at a much higher bit cost than simply rounding to a lower bit depth.

Send me a PM if you want to know more (so this thread can get less off-topic).

There is (was) one more amazing filter- one build into NexCode. It could not only convert 10 to 8 bit, but also remove existing banding from 8bit sources, with very good results.
You can speed up Xscaler on 8 core machine by splitting source file into 8 parts and running them seperately.

What about avisynth methods, eg GradFun2DBmod?

[MadMonkey57]

I happen to own Photomatix Pro (http://www.hdrsoft.com/index.html). Would it help ? (e.g batch tone mapping exr to 8 bit JPEG or 8/16 bit TIFF)

[Biggiesized]

Where did you get that EXR?

I didn't. Stacey Spears created that example in his video pre-processing thread on AVS Forum. I merely re-uploaded the images to imageshack so I didn't leech.

Contact Ton at the Blender Foundation about the ED source files.

There is (was) one more amazing filter- one build into NexCode. It could not only convert 10 to 8 bit, but also remove existing banding from 8bit sources, with very good results.
You can speed up Xscaler on 8 core machine by splitting source file into 8 parts and running them seperately.

What about avisynth methods, eg GradFun2DBmod?

The last build of PSE has a debanding filter for 8-bit sources. It works exceptionally well too.

[rack04]

Min-keyint defaults fixed locally. It now defaults to "auto", which results in keyint_max / 10.

So for Blu-ray compliance it is ok to leave this as default?

[shon3i]

So for Blu-ray compliance it is ok to leave this as default?
no you must set --keyint, and --min-keyint will be automaticly calculated, for example if you use 24, min will be 2. simple math :)

[Dark Shikari]

I've uploaded a new version of Elephant's Dream that's dithered properly and is suitable for use on a DVD5. Tallship is uploading as we speak.

[MadMonkey57]

URLs please ? (for info, i'm currently downloading BBB EXR files to dither through Photomatix Pro)