Nero Recode

[IgorC]

Ref 3-5 is generally recommended in x264, or ref 2 for speed. The quality benefits are noticeable, with nearly no speed difference, but after 4 the speed hit starts getting noticeable while the quality gain isn't. (Don't know if Recode has the same pattern.)

Dif ref1->ref2 slow down 17% in x264. However there is no speed drop in the last Elecard H.264 up to 8 ref + fast RDO.
If anybody is seriously interesting to compare speed/quality of a new Nero HP then MC/Elecard is another fast encoder. (fastest here with great quality). However there is a little work to do. 3 programms to install : MC encoder, HD plugin + the last version from another package.

High Profile Level 5.0
B-Pictures= 3
Reference Frames= 5
use B-Slices=ON
Search Shape=8x8
Subpixel Mode=Quarter
Deblocking -2:-2

Multi-reference frame ME=fast
Sub Block ME=fast
Rate Distortion Optimization On=fast
Fast Intra Decisions=ON
Fast Inter Decisions=ON

AVC can be fast as ASP+Qpel with very high quality.

[sjchmura]

Foxy,

Can you post which "profile" in x264 is good to start with and how to modify it to be similar to the 1920x1080 HDTV settings with 8x8 turned on with the slider on "best" - the default but enable 8x8.

While the resize bug is there are you seriously thinking that the ATEME encoder is not at least comparible if not better to the HQ-SLOW profile at the same file size (if you encode 5 minutes Nero works fine - over thats you get 100000GB :(

Again 1080i->720p@2GB/HR final size has excellent output in nero and is very very fast (AMD X2 @2.6hghz, 2meg cache). I have read some other threads thast suggest that AVIsynth, and the iVTC etc, is slowing DOWN x264.

I am tempted to try 7.5.0.2 so the whole thing just works - it seems to be posted everywhere but the Nero site :(

[ndkamal]

I use the setting CE-MainProfile with automated 2 pass turbo mode at 1000 Ko. And Nero Recode I use Main Profile, 2 pass, best quality and -128 to 127.75. But I think so the deblocking scale of x264 is better than use in Nero Recode.

[foxyshadis]

I haven't tested the current nero so I have no idea how fast it is, and exactly how the HD profile is set up. Perhaps HQ-Slow? If that's too slow then perhaps CE-HighProfile. You'll have to experiment. I can tell you that turning off 4x4 on HD is recommended by Manao; the higher the resolution the less 4x4 helps.

As for avisynth+x264, it helps to know how they work. Avisynth is normally single-threaded, although a multithreaded version exists, so on dual-procs if avisynth can't keep up it will weigh down x264. Your basic colormatrix+ivtc can easily keep up with x264 on at least HQ-Slow.

And even on single cpu systems, if you choose MeGUI's slowest and highest quality ivtc/deinterlace, designed to look good no matter how bad the video, of course it's much slower; Nero's ivtc quality can't hold a candle to it, but it's about as good and fast as the much faster normal ivtc, which people can always choose if they want faster processing.

Perhaps MeGUI could be a little better about explaining this.

[Sharktooth]

The current nero recode is fast... who says the contrary is just people that didnt get they should NOT push the quality bar all the way to the right...

[lordx]

Well, I've tested 7.5.0.2 beta and no bug at all . Correct Filesize !
And yes, nero is fast ! I was encoding a lot with Megui/x264 with HQ-Slow profile. And now, with recode, all options on, extra quality, encoding is much faster but i think it's not the encoder :
I explain : when I set up recode with an avs script, which uses decomb, decimate ...., it's not faster ! Same speed.

But when I unload decomb, decimate and use the built-in deinterlacer of recode, resize with recode, and crop with recode, it's REALLY faster than Avisynth/Megui/X264.

And quality is simply great ! Now, I can start a LOT of encodes, instead of buying HDD :)

[Dark Eiri]

Actually, even with the bar all to the right, it's quite fast.

[ArcticFox]

Annoying, i bought Nero especially for Nero recode and its halfassed, and theres no clear "itll be fixed xxx date", regretting buying Nero now.

[Sharktooth]

@ArticFox: welcome to my club...

[greggerm]

@ArcticFox
@Sharktooth

I'm a member as well...

[lordx]

So i was ... too enthousiast ....
mp4 final size is correct
but .... unplayable .... I cannot playback it, with any player.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[sjchmura]

LordX,

Is it really true? A full length encode under 7.5.0.2 does NOT have the bug?

THat is a real shame. I am impressed by the speed and thought the IVTC was quite good in this realeasded version EXEPT for the 100% broken target size.

1080i HDTV streams IVTC looks really really good. I know the abisynth/megui ones may be better, but at least for 1080i HD material, the ivtc looks great (BattleStar Season 1 transport streams from NBC)

[sjchmura]

So in summary:

7.5.0.2 -> correct size but MP4 not compliant
7.5.1.1 -> 4x bigger size but playable

Great

[akupenguin]

One area that could cause issues is that I don't think x264's and Ateme's deblocking scales are the same.
That's a symptom. The real difference is that x264 and Ateme have different mappings of QP<->quality. The standard defines deblocking relative to QP, but the level of deblocking that's actually desirable is relative to quality. There's no single reason for that difference, it's just a sum of lots of decisions that were made during development.

[Manao]

Indeed. At same size / psnr, the average quantizer will differ by ~1.5 between x264 and nero/ateme ( I don't remember which was the lowest ).

[lordx]

So in summary:

7.5.0.2 -> correct size but MP4 not compliant
7.5.1.1 -> 4x bigger size but playable

Great

Like you said .... !
Back to x264 !
:rolleyes:

[sjchmura]

Back to x264 - I need to find the multi-threaded AVIsynth - has anyone tried that???

[foxyshadis]

It's quite stable, and works with all but a couple filters. Just make sure you read the readme so you know how to modify your scripts to take advantage of it. (Only involves adding a couple new lines.) It's based on 2.56, so none of the fixes in 2.57 are included.

Makes a huge difference, often.

[sjchmura]

foxy,


Thanks for the tip. Where is the donwload link - search for "multi thread avisynth" and I don't see it - is it on sourcefordge?

Sorry - I am sure this is easy./..... so quickly will all the standard MeGUI stuff work or do you need special compiles of each plugin?

How much of a speed difference have you noticed with IVTC and resize (say 1080i->720p etc)???

[lordx]

I'm very interested too !!

[foxyshadis]

Oh, it's in tsp's thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=94996). Nothing has to be recompiled, and to my knowledge only pixiedust and mvtools mess up really badly.

[sjchmura]

THanks foxy - found the thread. So it looks like you just need to add the MT(2) line and all should work :)

[sjchmura]

Anyone here WHEN or a target for fixing nero?????

[Sharktooth]

when it's done. JohnV already stated they're waiting for Ateme...

[ArcticFox]

When they can be bothered more like, they have your money thats all they care about.

[Sharktooth]

That's why i havent bought it... always try before you buy...

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

I think that Ateme should release standalone H.264 encoder separate from Nero.

Obviously, something going very wrong in Nero-Ateme relationship.

[sjchmura]

Agreed. I find it stunning that AHEAD is pointing fingers at ATEME. I f this is really a huge bug in teh ATEME encoder how did they not find it?

Whatever the story the users who PAID money for the product are the ones screwed. GReat output, great interface, but the size bug is out of control bad

[ArcticFox]

and its still not patched, this is the first and last nero product i will be buying

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

Shame on you, Ahead!!! It's very insulting for us, customers, to get buggy Nero 7.5.

@ Nero devs:

Come on, people, get serious. If your products isn't good enough, then delay releasing, and start fixing bugs, instead.

[Manao]

Those who have no ideas on what development constraints are should not complain so loudly :
- when a project reach a certain size, any modification can have unwanted side effects.
- bugs must be processed first by Nero, then by Ateme if the bug appears not to be on Nero's side. Then, if & when the bug is found and corrected, a new version must be delivered to Nero, integrated into Recode, be tested for any new side effects... All that takes time. And most probably, Nero & Ateme have a support team, different from the development team, which means more delays.

[Dark Eiri]

Or short version: We paid for crap. Let's wait some weeks and then, pay again!

[sjchmura]

MAnao,

I want Nero to be good. I paid for it. Outside of the bug making it non useable, it is quite a nice package (but not perfect).

The fact that it crashes on MKV or AVI+Ac3 streams is forgivable and fixable. The fact that the "Nero Digital" part is broken is not.

Had the devlopers tested a SINGLE encode in 2-pass more they would have seen this and held the release. Hell, this is THE selling point of 7.5.

Sorry - a 4GB transport stream ->9GB MP4 (when shooting for 1.3GB) is pretty big bug that was missed/not tested.

[dvd_maniac]

Given the fact that the ATEME High Profile has been in Beta since almost forever and that this bug is SO obvious and makes the product almost useless, I am wondering what will happen when the update comes out and the trial period is over? Will we be able to reinstall or update and get another full trial period again?

[aicjofs]

Those who have no ideas on what development constraints are should not complain so loudly :
- when a project reach a certain size, any modification can have unwanted side effects.
- bugs must be processed first by Nero, then by Ateme if the bug appears not to be on Nero's side. Then, if & when the bug is found and corrected, a new version must be delivered to Nero, integrated into Recode, be tested for any new side effects... All that takes time. And most probably, Nero & Ateme have a support team, different from the development team, which means more delays.

Hmmm...I am not being being sarcastic at all when I say: I don't need to know anything about anything, blah, blah, the one thing I would do was run a full 2 pass encode if I worked in quality control.

Very disappointed. I owned 6.6 Ultra, and was forced to fork over another $50 to get updates to recode since they discontinued updates in 6.6 and they don't sell recode seperately updated. Again very disappointed....makes the software more or less useless for me, shouldn't take this long to patch. Back to megui which was AVC mutlithreaded a LONG time ago Nero!

[cinemascope]

Or short version: We paid for crap. Let's wait some weeks and then, pay again!
All Nero 7.x updates are free for owners of Nero 7, you know...

[ArcticFox]

Those who have no ideas on what development constraints are should not complain so loudly :
- when a project reach a certain size, any modification can have unwanted side effects.
- bugs must be processed first by Nero, then by Ateme if the bug appears not to be on Nero's side. Then, if & when the bug is found and corrected, a new version must be delivered to Nero, integrated into Recode, be tested for any new side effects... All that takes time. And most probably, Nero & Ateme have a support team, different from the development team, which means more delays.

Yes and if it wasn't for us, the consumers, actually buying Nero they wouldn't be able to develop the damn program.

£40 is a lot of money for something that doesn't work correctly, maybe if they didn't include so much bloat with Nero they might be able to see these bugs and errors before they go out to customers which make them not buy Nero again.

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

You are absolutely right, ArcticFox.

[Dark Eiri]

All Nero 7.x updates are free for owners of Nero 7, you know...

Download 300 MB again, whatever. It's not good to pay and wait =/

[SeeMoreDigital]

Personally I think it's a real shame Ateme/Nero don't use the skills and enthusiasm of Doom9 forum members more often. Especially to carry out "beta testing" of their proposed released products!


Cheers

[sjchmura]

Yes, I am sure all of us would be happy to let JohnV look at our keys, ensure they are legit, and let us help them help us.

What sucks is the RECODE could be so damn nice.

WHY is Nerovision now CRASHING on AVI+AC3->DVD. This always worked before

Why is MKV not recognized with nero's DS filters

Why did they NOT let us test the 2 pass encoding

They should not be afraid of us with the legit keys pirating - hell - just watermark it well even on a per -person basis.

Anyway, I still love:

1. Nero Burning - still great
2. Recode despite its flaws, is the best all in one package as soon as it works
3. NeroVision - for making DVD compliant stuff (But WHY IS THE AVI BROKEN NOW????)

[JohnV]

I'm running some full movie encodes with my computers with a fixed NeNDVid.ax which should fix the oversize problem. If it works ok, I have a permission to put this filter online. So if it goes ok, I'll put it online in matter of hours.

[hvatum]

I'm running some full movie encodes with my computers with a fixed NeNDVid.ax which should fix the oversize problem. If it works ok, I have a permission to put this filter online. So if it goes ok, I'll put it online in matter of hours.

Thanks, that would be really awesome. Also nero digital is actually available as a seperate product sans the rest of nero.

http://ww2.nero.com/eng/Upgrade_to_Nero_Digital_Pro.html

Though it isn't updated to the latest version. I don't know why.

[sjchmura]

THank you JohnV,

Would Nero be open to letting us help you (maybe a mailing list)

This would allow the ranting to be filtered from the big problems:

1. OVersize 2-pass encoding
2. AVI+AC3 files crashing Nerovision
3. MKV not working in Nerovision
4. Transport Stream (only in Nerovision - NOT in recode) 2 seconds audio out of sync

We could give you troubled clips

[acidsex]

Is the target size missing on the ASP codec or just AVC?

[Dark Eiri]

Only AVC.

[ArcticFox]

Thanks JohnV much appreciated.

[shon3i]

Did is somebody test ASP. It is better than XviD now, like devs says?

[JohnV]

Ok, I'm continuing checking, but seems it's working. No oversize problem at least so far.
Here's the filter which should fix the Nero 7.5.1.1 AVC 2-pass oversize: http://morbo.org/nero/NeNDVid_2_6_28_1.zip
Extract the NeNDVid.ax to "\Program Files\Common Files\Ahead\DSFilter" in order to replace the old one.

Please report any problems. Thanks.

[shon3i]

JO-HO. Thanks JohnV