Nero Recode

[Jumbie]

Jumbie - my tests with small files seemed to turn out OK - I encoded a 0:30 sec commercial and it was perfectly sized. I tried a full length movie twice (Cinema AVC, in both 5.1 and stereo sound, both 2 passes) and it was grossly oversized.

Okay. I was half-wondering if that might turn out to be the case and looks like it was.

Thankfully, Nero seems to be aware of the issue and is working on a fix.

Hope that's released soon because, while I don't plan to do any encodes right now, I will have some material to work with in a month or so.

I've been itching to move from the v6 series to the v7 series, and this release was the one I did it on. *Ouch!*

-Greg
Don't you love how life works out like that sometimes... *sigh*

[lordx]

Hope this fix will be out fast, 'cause I need to encode HDTV ... no more disk space

[shon3i]

A patch for the oversize problem is planned to be released asap. I'll post more information, when I get.
Did you have plans to seperate Recode in seperate download, like Recode SE.

[Sharktooth]

@JohnV: Just a question: Do you (nero guys) test your softwares before putting them up on your servers for public download? I know you are "time constrained" but i asked that coz it isnt the first time nero products come with stupid problems... for that reason i stopped buying your products long time ago...

PS: sorry if it sounds somewhat offending but it's not meant to offend, i only need to know if i can trust nero again or not...

[Taxidermista]

A patch for the oversize problem is planned to be released asap. I'll post more information, when I get.

JohnV, what about HD-DVD/Blu-Ray authoring? an Ultra edition maybe?

[lordx]

My second encode is finished
Same as before without 8x8 and Cinema Profile instead HDTV.
Result : not 22 Go this time but 11 Go , and expecting 5 go ....

Stopping now and waiting for patch ....

[SoleBastard]

This 'oversize problem' is absolutely amazing! Another 'major release' with a glaring bug... :( If such a problem crops up on such a large scale on the first day of release then there must be something wrong with the bug testing/beta program? Or am I being naieve here?

Ah well, on the bright side, its not as bad as deleting your C:\ root Nero Burning ROM 6.0 managed to perform! ;)

[bond]

is 8x8dct really the only high profile options added?

[dvd_maniac]

is 8x8dct really the only high profile options added?

Nope, they also added a way to automatically increase filesize...

[lordx]

:d :d :d

[ChronoCross]

Recode cannot import .mp4 audio files made with the free nero encoder......which is always nice. It also can't import .AC3 for recoding. Recode is damn near useless at the moment even for testing.

[agressiv]

Other than the file size problem with AVC (Which didnt exist in the leaked beta)

My gripes:

Hitting CTRL-ALT-DEL (and just hitting escape) resets the current encoding process (and truncates the file) when doing AVC encodes. ASP encodes don't have this problem.

agressiv

[shon3i]

Oversize is too big, i encode DVD, target filesize is 695MB, i get 980MB, but film looks more grainy like XviD, more than x264 for same size with same deblocking, bframe, references, mv range and other options, looks damn good.

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

JohnV, please say something. After all, you work for Nero and only you can explain H.264 oversize problem.

[ChronoCross]

We need some more people testing......does disabling bframes (set to 0) work? Doesn't for me.

also AQ doesn't seem to particularly work either.

[ChronoCross]

JohnV, please say something. After all, you work for Nero and only you can explain H.264 oversize problem.

he already said ti was broken. a fix is forthcoming. please read the thread before posting

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

You are right, ChronoCross. Sorry.

I only hope that JohnV will release only a patch. I don't want to download Nero 7.5 again.

[shon3i]

We need some more people testing......does disabling bframes (set to 0) work? Doesn't for me.

also AQ doesn't seem to particularly work either.
I am now testing with shorter (apple trailers) clips

[sjchmura]

Btw, I thought nero would default to directshow filters for NeroVision and Recode. However, it cannot import MKV files (AVC+AC3).

I thought it was designed to use the installed Directshow decoders/.ax if nero did not have one built in to allow flexibility in transcoding media?

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

John V, what about Nero Digital Pro package? Last version is from year 2005?

[agressiv]

Single Pass AVC gave the correct file size for me on a full-length movie. Its just the two-pass that is causing the oversize.

YMMV

agressiv

[sjchmura]

Yeah, short stuff is fine but 2-pass is broken :(

So the "leaked" version did not have these problems - amazing.

Again, can't nero let the people with legit product keys that encode alot of stuff test this before release?

I am also a bit shocked thast recode (nor Nerovision) allows importing AC3 or MKV. I thought it would be great to encode AC3 files from dvd concert tracks (U2 Live in 2005 is a great DVD - was at thast concert in chicago btw :)

[DarkZell666]

Well, I'm doing a test encode right now, and I must say I'm not very impressed by the speed ...

I'm on a 2Ghz P4, with good quality ram.
Encoding an anime episode, downsized to 512*384 (with no filtering at all), using the Cinema AVC profile with maxref=3, maxbframes=3, all encoding tools enabled, and default "quality" setting (the slider) :
1st Pass : 45fps (I said w00t at first ...)
2nd Pass : 5fps ... way behind x264, sorry.

Audio target is HE-AAC/64kbps/32000Hz.

I've been victim of the oversize problem too on another test I did yesterday, asking for a 60Mb episode gave me a 190MB episode ... wow !

Edit :Ok, the encode I was trying to do failed : the encoding progress stalled half an hour after the beginning of the 2nd pass.
In fact, it stalled when my expected 60MB were reached, and wouldn't encode further (I checked the filesize with F5 every now-and-again).
I let it run an extra 30minutes just to be sure and indeed the filesize hadn't changed.

Edit2 : Was using Nero Recode 2.3.1.8 (the one available in Nero7's update I downloaded yesterday).

[Skuto]

maxref=3

That just makes the encoder assslow without any quality gain. Use maxref=1.

[DarkZell666]

That just makes the encoder assslow without any quality gain. Use maxref=1.

It isn't the case with x264 anyway, using maxref 4 or 5 gives me like 8-10fps on second pass with similar settings.

Thx, will try (if nero stops stalling once past target filesize ... xD)

[sjchmura]

Deblocking Strenght: Negative values are less deblocking (with 0 being the default) I presume??? This would be similar to x264. THe default is -2

[dvd_maniac]

Maybe it's just me but I tried a comparison between this version of Recode and X264 using Staxrip. Both using 1-pass.
I left all the settings at default except for audio which i put to 40kbps and ref frames to 5. In Staxrip I used 512x384 on a Smallville 43 minute episode and it came out to 159MB and looked pretty good 7.5 out of 10.
I then tried a 1-pass in Recode with the same file and put the filesize to 159 using Standard AVC, 40kbps audio, Ref Frames 2. The crop was the same but Recode's resolution was 400x304. Now I figure that if both programs are using the same filesize on the same video using pretty comparable codecs and settings would have comparable results. But I would rate the 1-Pass Recode at a 5.

[ChronoCross]

That just makes the encoder assslow without any quality gain. Use maxref=1.

yeah umm wrong.

[sjchmura]

ChronoCross - can you explain this???? Why at any decent bitrate will a higher maxref matter? I thought it was only relevant at lower bitrates?

[ChronoCross]

it can and does make a difference. Just look at some of the SSIM and PSNR tests that have been done. It may have less of effect on higher bitrates but the quality gain is still noticeable.

[DarkZell666]

Well, I've resorted to 1-pass.

Same source, 512*384, with a destination bitrate of 290kbps and maxed out settings (Cinema AVC profile, extra quality, 3refs, 3bframes, all encoding tools enabled) : a solid 9.8fps. No miracle but not too bad :) (Still on the same 2ghz P4).

[ChronoCross]

There is no lossless as well ( I thought perhaps one pass with max and min QP of 0 would have the intended effect, no such luck)

So as a recap:
No Lossless
No Interlaced (mbaff, paff, pure interlaced)
Disabling bframes is broken
AQ barely functions
No FGM
2-pass Target bitrate is broken

The only bonus is speed seems to have increased other than that it seems nero's High profile encoder is a lemon.

PS: 1000 posts w00t!

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

Some guys have some doubts about High profile, as well.

It wouldn't be surprise if someone discover that Nero H.264 doesn't have High profile at all.

Very very buggy encoder. Unfortunately. I have high hopes, but...

[DarkZell666]

As long as there's the 8x8 transform they can call it HighProfile ... sad but true ... :)
And 8x8 transform is there (at least the checkbox is there for it xD). So it's HP, that's all there is to it :D

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

Yes, but question is how much Nero High profile is good, or better then High profile in x264 codec.

We will see what DmitryV2 H.264 codec test will show.

[Skuto]

It may have less of effect on higher bitrates but the quality gain is still noticeable.

Visibly, or just in the metrics?

I might be wrong, but my impression was that maxref != 1 was essentially not worth the disproportionate increase in time.

[ChronoCross]

Visibly, or just in the metrics?

I might be wrong, but my impression was that maxref != 1 was essentially not worth the disproportionate increase in time.

both.

[sjchmura]

Wow, this is TRUE target bug:

Source was 1080i 3.6GB 42 minutes BSG episode ->720p
ENcoded the whole thing to a target of 1/4DVDR (1.1gig)
2-pass AVC High porfile

My final was 9GIGS - BIGGER then the original

[JohnV]

We'll fix this as soon as possible, but the problem is in the low-level encoder implementation. Looks like a recent update to the Ateme AVC codec which was put to the release compilation was buggy unfortunately. We are waiting for Ateme at the moment.
I'll let you know when more information is available.

[Student Driver]

Wow, thanks.

BTW, any luck on getting the bigger video sizes onto the iPod? :)

[foxyshadis]

Ref 3-5 is generally recommended in x264, or ref 2 for speed. The quality benefits are noticeable, with nearly no speed difference, but after 4 the speed hit starts getting noticeable while the quality gain isn't. (Don't know if Recode has the same pattern.)

[sjchmura]

JohnV,

Thanks for being here. I think most people here appreciate the effort to improve this and are quite happy with the quality and just wanted more (high profile).

Also the documnetation on the new features (8x8, ref frames etc) is non-existant. I think this would help with quality/speed comparisons with other encoders.

Thanks

Steve

[Jumbie]

We'll fix this as soon as possible, but the problem is in the low-level encoder implementation. Looks like a recent update to the Ateme AVC codec which was put to the release compilation was buggy unfortunately. We are waiting for Ateme at the moment.
I'll let you know when more information is available.
Looking forward to that getting fixed soon. I was beginning to think about looking into MeGUI and x264 but I've been pretty happy with Nero so don't really want to switch (even if it is temporarily).

Thanks for the update JohnV.

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

Thanks for information, JohnV. We appreciate that.

BTW, I tested new Nero HP encoder, and I must say that I am very very disappointed. Sad, but true.

On my machine Nero Recode 2.3.1.8 refuse to finish 2-pass encodes, only one-pass encoding work for me. I really don't know why is that, others don't reported this bug.

For one-pass, I set bitrate to 500 kbps, but final result was only 330 kbps.

I tried to encode with several MPEG2 and MPEG1 files in standard resolutions (720x576 and 320x240). Nothing, same case is always happen.

P.S. Of course, I only tried Nero Digital AVC High Profile codec. High Profile is always on.

[DarkZell666]

KRP : I reported that too : during the 2nd pass, after hitting the target filesize, the encoding sort of "pauses" and loops for ever.
But since the target filesize is reached well before the end of the 2nd pass (due to the other bug where the filesize is much larger than expected) ... obviously the encoding never finishes :)

[shon3i]

Looks like Nero Burnig Room have aslo problem when recording in Disc-At-Once mode.

[DarkZell666]

Looks like Nero Burnig Room have aslo problem when recording in Disc-At-Once mode.
lol ... isn't that part of Nero supposed to be stable by now ? :sly:

[sjchmura]

So the 7.5.0.2 beta does NOT have the resize bug? So this "new" devlopment before release is due to changes from ATEME???

That is a shame. I was waiting to archive alot of transport streams.

[ndkamal]

with this release the quality of picture of Nero Recode is very similar to x264 (latest build), but x264 is more slow. In Nero Recode there are some macro block than I don't see in x264 and that with the best setting. The picture of x264 is a few more sharper than Ateme. And for finished Nero Recode is very optimised for multithreading. (the gain between one and two cores is more important than x264).

[foxyshadis]

Until you guys start figuring out how to control variables, these statements you guys are making about "faster" "sharper" "blockier" are absolutely useless. If you're getting noticeably different speeds and noticeably different quality you're doing it wrong. You have to hold as much constant as possible.

And if you're comparing Nero's defaults against, say, HQ-Slowest, that's just stupid.

The easy way is to configure them as closely as possible; there are some things you have to guess at, but you can get close. Then make changes to get speed the same, or changes to equalize the quality (using ssim if it's not very visibly different). Then you can start posting meaningful comparisons. And duse moving video, not screenshots, of course.

One area that could cause issues is that I don't think x264's and Ateme's deblocking scales are the same.