Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Command Line Encoder

[shon3i]

@Naito i don't know how you compare new nero cli encoder and old nero 6 encoder which is very terrible in quality especialy for HE and multichannel encoding because he have some bug which is corrected in this new CLI.

[Rockaria]

...because he have some bug which is corrected in this new CLI.
He himself admitted the violation of their own TOS#8 : proofs!


The 'free'-VBR-Modus (-q 0.xx without -lc or -he switch)is quite interesting. The bitrates here are very differend then with forced switchs (internal encoder-optimasions around the psychacusic-model, please note this!) We have to use liesening-tests to figure out what modus offers the best Audio quality) But you shuldnt force the switchs without an good reason.

The 'psycho..' seems to belong somewhere around 'arbitrary or delicate' or even particularly intelligent.

Because there is absolutely no formal dictionary yet, I agree anybody who is interested in, may have to approach in both ways to figure out the features(target/current) and pros & cons for own use or customized use for target group of users : top-down and bottom-up way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_data_compression : Lossy Compression

1st step : perceptual redundancy reduction using psychoacoustics model : Lets regards it as the perfect quality bitrate that human organ can perceive without the fidelity loss.
The innovation of lossy audio compression was to use psychoacoustics to recognize that not all data in an audio stream can be perceived by the human auditory system. Most lossy compression reduces perceptual redundancy by first identifying sounds which are considered perceptually irrelevant, that is, sounds that are very hard to hear. Typical examples include high frequencies, or sounds that occur at the same time as other louder sounds. Those sounds are coded with decreased accuracy or not coded at all.
2nd step : further lossy compression using target bit rate : Let's call it averaging or equal quality loss distributing
If reducing perceptual redundancy does not achieve sufficient compression for a particular application, it may require further lossy compression with a difference in quality that can be more readily perceived by a user. Most lossy compression schemes allow compression parameters to be adjusted to achieve a target rate of data, usually expressed as a bit rate. Again, the data reduction will be guided by some model of how important the sound is as perceived by the human ear, with the goal of efficiency and optimized quality for the target data rate. (There are many different models used for this perceptual analysis, some better suited to different types of audio than others.) Hence, depending on the bandwidth and storage requirements, the use of lossy compression may result in a perceived reduction of the audio quality that ranges from none to severe. Of course, that trade-off is usually intentional
Then, where belongs the -q mode averaging?
I guess it's in the 2nd step possibly using a psymodel again to achieve the target quality by further distributing the loss evenly.
If the bit rate is given as a input, norlmally it will be CBR, ABR or VBR mode, bit rate based.
If the target quality ratio is given, then the target bitrate for the segment will be dynamically calculated(or referenced) by the target quality ratio and actual perfect quality bitrate from the 1st step, and be called as quality based.

And as you see, the 1st step is(can be) used regardless of the modes..
But as for the -q mode, I guess the two steps can be processed in one step if both steps are particularly using the same psymodel

[shon3i]

@Ivan Dimkovic is there any chance in near future that this decoder neroAACDec support stdout, or did you have some other decoder for that

[dimzon]

@Ivan Dimkovic is there any chance in near future that this decoder neroAACDec support stdout, or did you have some other decoder for that
Actually I don't understand why just do not use FREE GPL-ed FAAD2 for it...

[shon3i]

I tryed but, i don't have lucky

comandline i use

"faad.exe" -w "silent_hill_h720p.aac" > "silent_hill_h720p.wav" | "neroAacEnc.exe" -if - -of "silent_hill_h720p.mp4"

and nero encoder say can't parase wav file

what i doing wrong, please tell me

[Rockaria]

I may have to put some more words because it has something in it.

4.Appraisal of Results
The optinization is most noticeable with LC at multichannel. While 3.2.0.0.30 LC is aprox. 2,1-times bigger then HE, the improvement with the CLI-Encoder is stronger noticeable (aprox. 1,85).

: It could simply mean the compression(averaging) models(& parameters) are changed in the new CLI version.

It is interesting that an 5.1 encode is aprox. 3,5 times bigger then an similer 2.0. This might indicate an insufficient channelcuppling.

: Normally 2.0~2.5x is expected compared to the stereo, but also it depends on the degree of the original clip channel seperations. I believe it must not exceed 3.0 even if the LFE has the full bandwidth usage.

HE is only posible till „-q 0.49“, with values above Nero displays an error and refuses to encode.

: ...

The 'free'-VBR-Modus (-q 0.xx without -lc or -he switch)is quite interesting. The bitrates here are very differend then with forced switchs (internal encoder-optimasions around the psychacusic-model, please note this!) We have to use liesening-tests to figure out what modus offers the best Audio quality) But you shuldnt force the switchs without an good reason.

: The CT version of AAC(CBR) comparison is showing that the HE quality becomes similar less than around @80kbps for the stereo and @200kbps(if we consider 80*2.5) for 6ch.
This is quite reasonable when we consider the difference is only the SBR band processing, which would be of smaller effect(difference) as the bit rate goes higher.

The two Nero graphs seem to say that the two modes are simply using different lossy compression models(& parameters), no resonable relationship to each other.
The -q auto mode(without LC/HE switch) could be said a bit intelligent, of course depending on the point of views.

I believe in the competetions for the end-users and tech itself.

http://www.codingtechnologies.com/products/assets/3GPP_mushra_18_48kbps_2.gif

[Edit] My remarks are after ':'s, no bold

[dimzon]

MeGUI since 0.2.3.2138 support NeroDigital CLI encoder ;)
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/9431/untitledrrr4us.png
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1689/untitledfff7yz.png

[Rockaria]

MeGUI since 0.2.3.2138 support NeroDigital CLI encoder ;)

hmm, I see two things :rolleyes: :
. Adaptive Bitrate : for -br (-2pass)?
. CT AAC encoder : dropped?

[shon3i]

hmm, I see two things :rolleyes: :
. Adaptive Bitrate : for -br (-2pass)?
. CT AAC encoder : dropped?
Agree,

1. and is there any chance to somehow integrate replygain from foobar, or something to first scan audio file and find higesest possible gain like foobar and than apply with amplifydb in avs script, because in that way we get very loud file without clipping/distorsion.

2. Can some help me with this. I try to re-encode some aac to mp4, but i can't to make stdout(faad)-stdin(nero).

I tryed but, i don't have lucky

comandline i use


"faad.exe" -w "silent_hill_h720p.aac" > "silent_hill_h720p.wav" | "neroAacEnc.exe" -if - -of "silent_hill_h720p.mp4"


and nero encoder say can't parase wav file

what i doing wrong, please tell me

[Rockaria]

Isn't the foobar2k(v0.9~) standard input plugin good at AAC multi channel decoding? I think just adding some ND cli encoder profiles to it will solve the second issue.
------------------------------------------------------
ND 128k -2pass auto : -br 128000 -2pass -if %s -of %d -ignorelength
ND 128k auto : -br 128000 -if - -of %d -ignorelength
...
------------------------------------------------------

Using bepipe/avs2wav with an avs file processing AmplifyDb(foobar scanned replaygain + ~3.0db) helped me, manual though, but faster than avisynth 2 pass volume gain. You may have to adjust the increment(3db) depending on the # of channels and/or foobar2k versions. I tested it with v0.83 long ago.
------------------------------------------------------
bepipe --script "Import(^Audio.avs^)" | neroAacEnc.exe -cbr 224000 -if - -of "output.m4a"

[shon3i]

OK Rockaria but you little missunderstand me.

First about ReplayGain:

I founded that in foobar 0.9 have excelent ReplyGain. For example, i used 6ch ac3 input and scan. ReaplyGain found maximum value for gain for example +10.54dB, i apply gain and then encode for example to Nero(MP4), and i get very loud file without any clipping/distording.

Same thing happens when for example not process that file in foobar, than only scan with RG and than this 10.54dB apply in avs script with amplyfydB function.

My question is how we can use that RG from foobar and implement in MeGUI/BeHappy or there is similar function/program which can do that job.

Second:

I wan't use bepipe or directshowsource, because i have more than one filter for aac input. I must all it to shutdown to process that file normaly. So why then i need AAC decoder.
btw foobar 0.9 can't handle aac files, only mp4. or i miss some plugin. Thanks

[dimzon]

Actually it's possible to write AviSynth AAC source filter/plugin with ReplayGain support. I can use FAAD2 as starting point for it...
Unfortunally it request some amount of time, so, maybe, it will be implemented later...

[shon3i]

Actually it's possible to write AviSynth AAC source filter/plugin with ReplayGain support. I can use FAAD2 as starting point for it...
Unfortunally it request some amount of time, so, maybe, it will be implemented later...
In BeHappy/MeGUI we need AAC/MP4 input, possible with (FAAD)

This ReplayGain filter scaner if possible, for all input files.

[Rockaria]

I also thought that the answer couldn't be that simple when you ask..:D

That's true, the foobar2k generic Replaygain meta tag is not standard widely accepted yet(so manual setting is inevitable with other decoders). But it is great to hear that the v0.9 version is excellent at 6ch replaygain scanning, my experience with v0.83 before was that it is set somewhat lower than max gain, it's also possibly because of the wrong source channel mapping(6ch aac/mp4).

I have no problem playing the aac he cbr(aacplus : winamp bundled 'Kaje - Hey Buddy..") with old foobar2k imbeded standard input plugin, which is I think mpeg4 aac. Even if you have a raw mpeg2 aac, I guess foobar2k mp4 mux tool can wrap it to mp4? I could be wrong somewhere here.

The avisynth(bepipe) directshowsource uses system default filter merit(priority). so you must either set the merits correctly, have only a correct filter installed, or use other aac supported avisynth plugin.

[Latexxx]

In BeHappy/MeGUI we need AAC/MP4 input, possible with (FAAD)

This ReplayGain filter scaner if possible, for all input files.
Adaptive bitrate? Shouldn't that that be average bitrate.

[shon3i]

I also thought that the answer couldn't be that simple when you ask.. Of course is not, but must asked.

That's true, the foobar2k generic Replaygain meta tag is not standard widely accepted yet(so manual setting is inevitable with other decoders). But it is great to hear that the v0.9 version is excellent at 6ch replaygain scanning, my experience with v0.83 before was that it is set somewhat lower than max gain, it's also possibly because of the wrong source channel mapping(6ch aac/mp4).
You should try this foobar 0.92.2 beta 2 is amazing, support this new Nero CLI, ReplayGain is aslo amazing, newermid on source, works perfectly with 6ch,stereo,mono, everything.

I ask Ivan about nero ReplyGain and he say that, this encoder support RG, but how i don't know. Aslo see this on HA forums.

I have no problem playing the aac he cbr(aacplus : winamp bundled 'Kaje - Hey Buddy..") with old foobar2k imbeded standard input plugin, which is I think mpeg4 aac. Even if you have a raw mpeg2 aac, I guess foobar2k mp4 mux tool can wrap it to mp4? I could be wrong somewhere here.Aslo no problems with 0.83 but with 0.9 aac files not supported anymore, except only in mp4. I use YAMB to mux it.

The avisynth(bepipe) directshowsource uses system default filter merit(priority). so you must either set the merits correctly, have only a correct filter installed, or use other aac supported avisynth plugin.Yes i know, in my system to filter merit looks like this

source->CoreAAC->AC3Filter, so everytime i must off ac3filter, or in CoreAAC switch off dominix.

[Rockaria]

Of course is not, but must asked.
...
Yes i know, in my system to filter merit looks like this

source->CoreAAC->AC3Filter, so everytime i must off ac3filter, or in CoreAAC switch off dominix.Pls, don't get me wrong...;)
I meant, u never say useless(simple) thing, although it is not sometimes expressed clearly(in a sentence).

The priority(merit) setting is useful when there are more than one filters for the same functions.
in this case, the aac source(spliter) filters and decoders are related.

[shon3i]

Pls, don't get me wrong...
I meant, u never say useless(simple) thing, although it is not sometimes expressed clearly(in a sentence).sorry but my english is bad, so sometimes i can't express correctly. I am not get you wrong.

The priority(merit) setting is useful when there are more than one filters for the same functions.
in this case, the aac source(spliter) filters and decoders are related.
That is ok, but i want clear decoder->encoder.

[Rockaria]

If I userstand you correctly, the language doesn't matter much, unless you are intentionally abstracting the words to tease me...

I meant 'get me wrong' as 'misunderstand me'. Pls corrrect me if I got you worng.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Dimzon,

Any possibility your NeroDigital GUI can be made available outside of MeGUI?


Cheers

[dimzon]

Hi Dimzon,

Any possibility your NeroDigital GUI can be made available outside of MeGUI?


Cheers
Any reason agains MeGUI?
You doesn't need any other stuff (like x264 etc) to encode AAC - just MeGUI itself + Nero CLI encoder.

[GodofaGap]

The 'free'-VBR-Modus (-q 0.xx without -lc or -he switch)is quite interesting. The bitrates here are very differend then with forced switchs (internal encoder-optimasions around the psychacusic-model, please note this!) We have to use liesening-tests to figure out what modus offers the best Audio quality) But you shuldnt force the switchs without an good reason.
The quality scale is different with forced switches. That's why you cannot compare it with normal mode. One is probably not better than the other, but you will need to use a different q value to achieve the same bitrate/quality.

But forcing LC isn't good for any reason but compatability.

[Rockaria]

That's not mine! My remarks are after ':'s, no BOLD

Or quoting randomly with different ids is a new trend?;)
The 'free'-VBR-Modus (-q 0.xx without -lc or -he switch)is quite interesting. The bitrates here are very differend then with forced switchs (internal encoder-optimasions around the psychacusic-model, please note this!) We have to use liesening-tests to figure out what modus offers the best Audio quality) But you shuldnt force the switchs without an good reason.

The CT version of AAC(CBR) comparison is showing that the HE quality becomes similar less than around @80kbps for the stereo and @200kbps(if we consider 80*2.5) for 6ch. This is quite reasonable when we consider the difference is only the SBR band processing, which would be of smaller effect(difference) as the bit rate goes higher.

The two Nero graphs seem to say that the two modes are simply using different lossy compression models(& parameters), no resonable relationship to each other.
The -q auto mode(without LC/HE switch) could be said a bit intelligent, of course depending on the point of views....

[Naito]

Please note, that my test is only for discussion about the performance, not for listening quality. Thanks.
I compared the CLI with the aacen32.dll to show, how good or bad the new ist tuned. (To show a difference, I have to make a comparison)

How I said, the VBR(free) ist quite interesting. But I can't say that "-q 0.40 -he", "-q 0.21 -lc" and "-q 0.34" (all around @300kbps) gives the same sound-qaulity.
Because ...
The two Nero graphs seem to say that the two modes are simply using different lossy compression models(& parameters), no resonable relationship to each other.
The -q auto mode(without LC/HE switch) could be said a bit intelligent, of course depending on the point of views....
... I think the same. But only Nero has the answer.

I hope Listening Test will follow soon to see how good the CLI is.

Up to then
Naito

[GodofaGap]

@Rockaria:

if you are quoting someone please use quote tags. Otherwise I get horribly confused. ;)

(please no bold (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=827290&postcount=206))

[Rockaria]

@GodofaGap, a good point, but when you get into the middle of the thread, firstly check where the chunk of issue is started. Which way, you can easily avoid the terrible confusion.

Also the reason why I do not use too many quotes onto a person's post is that it may bring up the feeling of too much differences which obviously causes unfomfortable surround, I've been feeling through lots of forums engagement. Does it make sense?

[Adub]

I found a bug! I am not going to be sent to jail, am I? Hahah!

Anyway on to the bug. When encoding with Nero Free AAC in VBR mode, I tried to go below Q=.12, and it started giving be errors like ERROR: no valid SBR configuration found

I got the above error when I went to Q=.11. No such problems with Q=.12.

Just though I would let you know.
ps. I tried both of the encoders, sse2 and normal. Both crashed after the first pass. Great encoder guys, by the way! just a little problem.

Thanks!

Edit: I was using a source with these specs Channels=6, BitsPerSample=16, SampleRate=48000Hz

It might help. Sharktooth said that the quality might be too low for 6 channel encoding, but wrong error message anyway.

[DnA]

I have a question about the encoding quality: when I executed the following command:

neroaacenc_sse2 -2pass -br 128000 -if "Input.wav" -of "Output.mp4"

I got worse results (artifacts added) than without "-2pass" option

neroaacenc_sse2 -br 128000 -if "Input.wav" -of "Output.mp4".

For testers: The sample was the 20th Century Fox intro in "Fight Club" movie.

[GodofaGap]

Also the reason why I do not use too many quotes onto a person's post is that it may bring up the feeling of too much differences which obviously causes unfomfortable surround, I've been feeling through lots of forums engagement. Does it make sense?
Perhaps, although I personally do not feel this way as long as each quote is justified and does not result in too much hair-splitting on unimportant points. I agree it's often not necessary to quote the whole OP posts to pieces in order to reply in an understandable manner.

Personally, I often read this forum early in the morning and late at night so it does happen I am not fully concentrated on deciding/looking back if something is a quote or not. I DO rely on the quote tags for that, or at least some quotation marks. And I think these tags were brought to life to avoid the confusion I have had here now. In any case, I certainly do not automatically associate bold text with a quote, but as text that is emphasized, considered important by the poster.

My apologies again for the misquote and for the off-topic.

[dimzon]

I'm looking for a good and clean NeroDigitalAudio logo

this is NeroDigitalAudio logo, but quality is wrost and I need monocrome logo
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/img/ND_Audio.jpg

this is NeroDigital logo, everything is fine but I need NeroDigitalAudio logo
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/img/ND_Logo_Thumb.gif

[_ck_]

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this but there is no stand-alone hardware in existance or under development right now that will support this standard yet? Right?

Is there an ACM and DirectShow codec available at this time?
Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything (yet) about the audio side of Nero's codecs so I am fairly lost without a FAQ...

[futurex]

I'm looking for a good and clean NeroDigitalAudio logo

this is NeroDigitalAudio logo, but quality is wrost and I need monocrome logo
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/img/ND_Audio.jpg

this is NeroDigital logo, everything is fine but I need NeroDigitalAudio logo
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/img/ND_Logo_Thumb.gif


incase nobody is able to find one, here's one i just slapped together :)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7382/nerologonew4du.png

[shon3i]

Is there an ACM and DirectShow codec available at this time?I think that ACM codec newer been maked, because ACM for AAC is same as WFV for H264. DirectShow can be only decoder and you can use ffdshow,CoreAAC.

[Rockaria]

... I think the same. But only Nero has the answer. ..and don't want it dosclosed for some reason..perhaps yet...

@GodofaGap,:D
OK, I knew you didn't have any bad will judging by the content. So perhaps I just wanted it closed by biginning with my apology causing your mistake anyhow(as you know). But my final adjustment was in the beliefs that what is most important in the conversation is listening(reading) and correcting(own, ASAP) before any preference of the styles if we really want to continue the conversation smooth, reasonable and useful.

I have also seen so many times the quotes being abused, especially in debates(no discussion or conversation), with their mighty scissors, creating totally different content..

[Kurtnoise]

I got the above error when I went to Q=.11. No such problems with Q=.12.
It's not really a bug but more a warning I think...and I'm pretty sure that you don't perceive any differences between 0.11 and 0.12 for multichannel streams.

[Kurtnoise]

I think that ACM codec newer been maked, because ACM for AAC is same as WFV for H264.
huh, no...:rolleyes:

DirectShow can be only decoder.
Wrong...Fortunately we can have some DShow encoders filters. :rolleyes:

[Kurtnoise]

Is there an ACM and DirectShow codec available at this time?...
For DirectShow codec, install Nero Recode but it uses the old AAC encoder engine.

[AVmaniac]

Any idea how the 2pass mode of the nero cli works?
Because I have really high bitrates in zones of no noise in my encoded material.
for example:
The intro of Starshiptroopers(blank screen not a sound until the drums appear), ther ffdshow shows bitrates of 200kbps and above. really weird

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm looking for a good and clean NeroDigitalAudio logo

Okay... here's my 800x400 pixel effort: -

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1784/digitalaudiologo4cl.th.png (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=digitalaudiologo4cl.png)


Cheers

[GodofaGap]

I don't want to be rude, but shouldn't Nero take care of its own logo's?

[Ivan Dimkovic]

Nero Digital logo exists - Nero Digital Audio is coming soon.

Now, I must remind concerned people that the usage of Nero Digital / Nero Digital Audio logos in third-party products is not allowed without certification.

[siddharthagandhi]

Yes, but he can use the logos that SeeMoreDigital and the other guy created...right?....

those weren't created by Nero so they should be legal...

[Ivan Dimkovic]

Hate to be the nitpick :) But they do incorporate offical Nero logo in their design - which might violate copyright.

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

Ivan, when we will see updated version of Nero Burning Rom package, and Recode 2.

Excuse me, but programs that I use, do not use official Nero logo in their design.

[Ivan Dimkovic]

Ivan, when we will see updated version of Nero Burning Rom package, and Recode 2.

NBR and Recode are updated in regular scheduled Nero updates.


Excuse me, but programs that I use, do not use official Nero logo in their design.

I was refering to an idea posted here to design custom Nero Digital Audio logos, that incorporate official Nero branding, and nothing else.

[dimzon]

Now, I must remind concerned people that the usage of Nero Digital / Nero Digital Audio logos in third-party products is not allowed without certification.
Does it mean I can't use ND logo in GUI for your CLI encoder? I'm using your own (written by yourselfes) encoder, so why not?

[GodofaGap]

Because you will have to be granted permission to use it first. Otherwise you would be in violation of copyright law.

I'm sure you understand that Nero wants to do some quality assurance on products/software that use their certification logos.

[stax76]

Next time don't ask and nobody will complain...

BeLight uses the logo as well...

[DnA]

@Nero engineers

Do you have any idea, why -2pass -br sounds worse than just -br? I really like the 2pass encoding and do not have any slight idea, why it sounds worse than one pass encoding.

[Ivan Dimkovic]

Does it mean I can't use ND logo in GUI for your CLI encoder? I'm using your own (written by yourselfes) encoder, so why not?

Because having a Nero Digital logo on the device/product means that the device is:

- Certified under strict requirements and QA verification
- Nero logo really stands for the quality of audio of this product

And all above means - for the entire product.

Free AAC encoder we are talking about here, is free for personal and noncommercial use - and this is the license condition one has to accept in order to use this free product.

So this license does not include bundling/redistribution with third party applications, also it does not include right to use Nero copyrighted intellectual property - such as logos.

Also, in addition to this - even if we wanted to give free right to bundle Nero AAC encoder with 3-party applications, or give right for commercial use, this would be in violation of the AAC patent license agreement "annual cap" rule, and we would certainly not be in position to provide encoder free of charge anymore.

So, I think the solution as it is now is the best for the users and community - encoding software is free of charge, and available by download from Nero - for non-commercial and personal use.

Everything else (distribution, bundling, etc...), including the logo usage is not granted with this free license - people willing to gain such rights should contact Nero directly.