Problem when trying to IVTC "Robot Chicken S1" DVDs

Chainmax · 17th April 2007, 22:56

I am trying to make a standalone compatible Xvid rip of this boxset I purchased a few months ago. The problem is that it has so little motion that it's extremely hard to see any combing and determine field order. Also, afte IVTCing, there's still some residual combing and aliasing which is hard to fix without messing up other parts.
Therefore, I turn to you for suggestions. Here are a few samples:

Residual combing + aliasing:
http://www.bestsharing.com/files/gwW...muxed.m2v.html

One of the very few scenes where combing is noticeable:
http://www.bestsharing.com/files/Fsa...muxed.m2v.html

A scene that becomes very screwed up if doing antialiasing:
http://www.bestsharing.com/files/t0m...muxed.m2v.html

Mug Funky · 18th April 2007, 00:16

if it's anything like the other stuff coming from cartoon network, you might be looking at animation in 30p. i've seen a little of the brak show and ATHF, and those are mainly 30p.

so perhaps you would do better to bob+decimate.

Chainmax · 18th April 2007, 02:23

What about the combing artifacts in clip2 then, how could they be in there?

ChiDragon · 18th April 2007, 02:40

Step through the second clip with Bob(), there's some weird blending/warping going on. I'll leave it to someone else to suggest ways to undo this as I have no experience with it.

Chainmax · 21st April 2007, 15:12

Anyone else then?

Mug Funky · 21st April 2007, 16:38

looks like speed changes to me.

i'd say just do it at 30p and run an unblender on it to get the most out of the 60 fields (to try keep the blends and blurs to a minimum). so maybe try see if restore24 can be used to go from 60p to 30p.

this judgement is based wholly on clip2 though, but the mocomped speed changes are pretty much unmistakable.

Chainmax · 22nd April 2007, 03:56

So, it would be something like:

Code:

a2=Yadif(mode=1)
b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=1,chroma=true,tryweave=true)
restore24(a2, b2)
Blend removal

, right? As for blend removing, which one would you recommend me and where can I download it (some time ago, I looked for MRestore and CDeBlend and couldn't find them)?

Also, could you please take a look at clips one and three? The former shows some residual combing and also aliasing, while the latter becomes quite messed up if using antialiasing.

Mug Funky · 22nd April 2007, 05:43

well, i meant trying to see if restore24 could be set with num and den equal to each other [edit] - i just realised how stupid that statement is, so it doesn't change the framerate at all. the unblending would be done within restore24.

but i've never used it that way so i can't be sure if it'd work.

in the meantime, here's a cludge i put together from another script i had lying around. works pretty well for clip2.

Code:


function blendkill (clip c)
{

c.yadif(1)
global clippidoo=last
global edge=clippidoo.mt_edge(mode="prewitt",thy1=0,thy2=255,y=3,u=-128,v=-128).levels(0,.25,255,0,255,coring=false)
scriptclip(clippidoo.selectevery(2,0),"""
\	 edge.selectevery(2,0).averageluma() < edge.selectevery(2,-1).averageluma() &&
\	 edge.selectevery(2,0).averageluma() < edge.selectevery(2,1).averageluma() ?
\	 clippidoo.selectevery(2,0).ydifferencefromprevious() > clippidoo.selectevery(2,0).ydifferencetonext() ?
\	 clippidoo.selectevery(2,1) : clippidoo.selectevery(2,-1) : clippidoo.selectevery(2,0) """)
}

mpeg2source("Clip2.demuxed.d2v")

assumetff()

blendkill()

it should do pretty much the same as "unblend", but it works off 60p input and outputs 30p (or 50p to 25p, or whatever). you can replace the yadif line with anything else - i just put it there because it's my current favourite, but tdeint should do a better job on account of your mostly progressive source.

Chainmax · 22nd April 2007, 06:05

What kind of leftover artifacts should be expected from using it? Also, would there be ways to improve on it other than using a better deinterlacer?

setarip_old · 22nd April 2007, 07:17

Hi!

As an experiment (as I've suggested inposts in other threads), you might want to try using MPEGMediator to do the same conversion(s), coinciding with your uploaded example(s)...

Mug Funky · 22nd April 2007, 13:55

@ chainmax:

2 types of leftover artefacts - deinterlacer related (ie. shimmering lines), and bad matches (ie. leftover blended frames). none are really tragic, and it should look completely fine when played back.

so obviously, the best ways to improve it would be:

- using a safer deinterlacer, or
- writing better metrics and using better logic.

i've basically ripped the blend judgment logic from didee's original documentation of restore24, and simplified it a lot. if you break it down, all the scriptclip line is doing is choosing to keep either the current frame, or either the previous or next frames, depending on which one appears "less blended". the amount of blending is judged by how bright an edge-masked version of the input is and whether it sits between the brightnesses of the adjacent frames. i've actually posted that same code fragment with modifications several times before, so if it looks familiar that's why

so good luck with it.

Chainmax · 23rd April 2007, 14:54

Ok, when the newest version of TDeint with smart thresholding comes out I'll try your method. Thanks for the suggestion

. One thing though, I once tried to just IVTC and the interkaced frames from Clip2 didn't show up. The only reason I didn't encode it then was because of the leftover combing and aliasing, but I didn't know about Vinverse then. In any case, could you tell me for future rips/caps how to distinguish this kind of scenario (30p animation), along with what are these mocomped speed changes you speak about and how to spot those too?

setarip_old: could you point me to a few of those threads so I can read more about your method?

[edit]Mug Funky, you should post that function in the Development subforum so that other developers can take a look at it.

Mug Funky · 24th April 2007, 15:35

function is too simple for the devs

as for identifying this footage, all i can say is step through bobbed frames and look for obvious warping (including blends where an object in the previous frame sort of "shrinks" into the background, like some of the moving arms do in clip2). that stuff's a sure sign of a motion-compensated slowdown/speedup.

however, this could be scene-by-scene - speed changes happen all the time in editing, especially short-form stuff (music videos, ads) or low budget stuff.

Chainmax · 25th April 2007, 04:42

I see, thanks. As for determining if it's 30p, it's just a matter of seeing if the interlacing only happens sparsely and for very short periods of time, right?

Chainmax · 14th May 2007, 22:55

Actually, IVTCing gets rid of the interlacing artifacts from Clip2. It only leaves aliasing and some residual combing which is visible (for instance) on Clip1, but maybe Vinverse can get rid of those. Are you sure it's 30p? How can it be distinguished from the more conventional "24p"?

Chainmax · 22nd May 2007, 23:40

Mug Funky?

Chainmax · 10th July 2007, 01:29

Last bump...

Guest · 10th July 2007, 01:33

Bumping like that is frowned upon and several mods consider it a rule 11 violation. Please don't do it anymore. Thank you.

MOmonster · 11th July 2007, 10:45

Sounds like DEFT or something similar. If you still need help, please upload the clips ones more (I can´t download them).

Chainmax · 13th July 2007, 01:21

Will do ASAP, thanks

.

17th April 2007, 22:56	#1 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Problem when trying to IVTC "Robot Chicken S1" DVDs I am trying to make a standalone compatible Xvid rip of this boxset I purchased a few months ago. The problem is that it has so little motion that it's extremely hard to see any combing and determine field order. Also, afte IVTCing, there's still some residual combing and aliasing which is hard to fix without messing up other parts. Therefore, I turn to you for suggestions. Here are a few samples: Residual combing + aliasing: http://www.bestsharing.com/files/gwW...muxed.m2v.html One of the very few scenes where combing is noticeable: http://www.bestsharing.com/files/Fsa...muxed.m2v.html A scene that becomes very screwed up if doing antialiasing: http://www.bestsharing.com/files/t0m...muxed.m2v.html __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

18th April 2007, 00:16	#2 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	if it's anything like the other stuff coming from cartoon network, you might be looking at animation in 30p. i've seen a little of the brak show and ATHF, and those are mainly 30p. so perhaps you would do better to bob+decimate. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

18th April 2007, 02:23	#3 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	What about the combing artifacts in clip2 then, how could they be in there? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

21st April 2007, 15:12	#5 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Anyone else then? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

21st April 2007, 16:38	#6 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	looks like speed changes to me. i'd say just do it at 30p and run an unblender on it to get the most out of the 60 fields (to try keep the blends and blurs to a minimum). so maybe try see if restore24 can be used to go from 60p to 30p. this judgement is based wholly on clip2 though, but the mocomped speed changes are pretty much unmistakable. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

18th April 2007, 02:40	#4 \| Link
ChiDragon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 600	Step through the second clip with Bob(), there's some weird blending/warping going on. I'll leave it to someone else to suggest ways to undo this as I have no experience with it.

22nd April 2007, 03:56	#7 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	So, it would be something like: Code: a2=Yadif(mode=1) b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=1,chroma=true,tryweave=true) restore24(a2, b2) Blend removal , right? As for blend removing, which one would you recommend me and where can I download it (some time ago, I looked for MRestore and CDeBlend and couldn't find them)? Also, could you please take a look at clips one and three? The former shows some residual combing and also aliasing, while the latter becomes quite messed up if using antialiasing. __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

22nd April 2007, 05:43	#8 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	well, i meant trying to see if restore24 could be set with num and den equal to each other [edit] - i just realised how stupid that statement is, so it doesn't change the framerate at all. the unblending would be done within restore24. but i've never used it that way so i can't be sure if it'd work. in the meantime, here's a cludge i put together from another script i had lying around. works pretty well for clip2. Code: function blendkill (clip c) { c.yadif(1) global clippidoo=last global edge=clippidoo.mt_edge(mode="prewitt",thy1=0,thy2=255,y=3,u=-128,v=-128).levels(0,.25,255,0,255,coring=false) scriptclip(clippidoo.selectevery(2,0),""" \ edge.selectevery(2,0).averageluma() < edge.selectevery(2,-1).averageluma() && \ edge.selectevery(2,0).averageluma() < edge.selectevery(2,1).averageluma() ? \ clippidoo.selectevery(2,0).ydifferencefromprevious() > clippidoo.selectevery(2,0).ydifferencetonext() ? \ clippidoo.selectevery(2,1) : clippidoo.selectevery(2,-1) : clippidoo.selectevery(2,0) """) } mpeg2source("Clip2.demuxed.d2v") assumetff() blendkill() it should do pretty much the same as "unblend", but it works off 60p input and outputs 30p (or 50p to 25p, or whatever). you can replace the yadif line with anything else - i just put it there because it's my current favourite, but tdeint should do a better job on account of your mostly progressive source. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004 Last edited by Mug Funky; 22nd April 2007 at 05:48.

22nd April 2007, 06:05	#9 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	What kind of leftover artifacts should be expected from using it? Also, would there be ways to improve on it other than using a better deinterlacer? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

22nd April 2007, 07:17	#10 \| Link
setarip_old Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16,267	Hi! As an experiment (as I've suggested inposts in other threads), you might want to try using MPEGMediator to do the same conversion(s), coinciding with your uploaded example(s)...

22nd April 2007, 13:55	#11 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	@ chainmax: 2 types of leftover artefacts - deinterlacer related (ie. shimmering lines), and bad matches (ie. leftover blended frames). none are really tragic, and it should look completely fine when played back. so obviously, the best ways to improve it would be: - using a safer deinterlacer, or - writing better metrics and using better logic. i've basically ripped the blend judgment logic from didee's original documentation of restore24, and simplified it a lot. if you break it down, all the scriptclip line is doing is choosing to keep either the current frame, or either the previous or next frames, depending on which one appears "less blended". the amount of blending is judged by how bright an edge-masked version of the input is and whether it sits between the brightnesses of the adjacent frames. i've actually posted that same code fragment with modifications several times before, so if it looks familiar that's why so good luck with it. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

23rd April 2007, 14:54	#12 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Ok, when the newest version of TDeint with smart thresholding comes out I'll try your method. Thanks for the suggestion . One thing though, I once tried to just IVTC and the interkaced frames from Clip2 didn't show up. The only reason I didn't encode it then was because of the leftover combing and aliasing, but I didn't know about Vinverse then. In any case, could you tell me for future rips/caps how to distinguish this kind of scenario (30p animation), along with what are these mocomped speed changes you speak about and how to spot those too? setarip_old: could you point me to a few of those threads so I can read more about your method? [edit]Mug Funky, you should post that function in the Development subforum so that other developers can take a look at it. __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it. Last edited by Chainmax; 24th April 2007 at 01:30.

24th April 2007, 15:35	#13 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	function is too simple for the devs as for identifying this footage, all i can say is step through bobbed frames and look for obvious warping (including blends where an object in the previous frame sort of "shrinks" into the background, like some of the moving arms do in clip2). that stuff's a sure sign of a motion-compensated slowdown/speedup. however, this could be scene-by-scene - speed changes happen all the time in editing, especially short-form stuff (music videos, ads) or low budget stuff. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

25th April 2007, 04:42	#14 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	I see, thanks. As for determining if it's 30p, it's just a matter of seeing if the interlacing only happens sparsely and for very short periods of time, right? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

14th May 2007, 22:55	#15 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Actually, IVTCing gets rid of the interlacing artifacts from Clip2. It only leaves aliasing and some residual combing which is visible (for instance) on Clip1, but maybe Vinverse can get rid of those. Are you sure it's 30p? How can it be distinguished from the more conventional "24p"? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it. Last edited by Chainmax; 22nd May 2007 at 23:42.

22nd May 2007, 23:40	#16 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Mug Funky? __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

10th July 2007, 01:29	#17 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Last bump... __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.

10th July 2007, 01:33	#18 \| Link
Guest Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 21,901	Bumping like that is frowned upon and several mods consider it a rule 11 violation. Please don't do it anymore. Thank you.

11th July 2007, 10:45	#19 \| Link
MOmonster Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 495	Sounds like DEFT or something similar. If you still need help, please upload the clips ones more (I can´t download them).

13th July 2007, 01:21	#20 \| Link
Chainmax Huh? Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Uruguay Posts: 3,103	Will do ASAP, thanks . __________________ Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.