Re: "They" caught a true software pirate

[JohnnyMalaria]

Originally Posted by HyperHacker

Wait, so you're saying piracy does devoid the victim of their original copy?

Possibilities don't mean much. There is a possibility that a meteor will crash through your lawn as you read this post. That doesn't mean it's at all likely.

You clearly have a naive and uninformed understanding of the value of intellectual property.

"You slept with my wife!!!"
"So what, you can still sleep with her, can't you?"

[celtic_druid]

Yes, but if she doesn't tell you and you don't otherwise suspect, then you won't be effected. On the other hand you could become paranoid and lose her even though she never cheated (DRM product activation, etc. effecting legitimate users).

[foxyshadis]

Originally Posted by JohnnyMalaria

You clearly have a naive and uninformed understanding of the value of intellectual property.

"You slept with my wife!!!"
"So what, you can still sleep with her, can't you?"

That's a much better analogy than most of the attempts to turn it into a car analogy (car cloning?), but I'd certainly hope you aren't charging regular customers for use of your wife. >.>

[Shinigami-Sama]

Originally Posted by foxyshadis

That's a much better analogy than most of the attempts to turn it into a car analogy (car cloning?), but I'd certainly hope you aren't charging regular customers for use of your wife. >.>

Actually I compared it to the license to drive the car I believe
though I can't remember exactly.

[HyperHacker]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

From what you say, it seems that if you were a legitimate commercial programmer for a living, you (and your family who rely on you to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads) wouldn't mind if I cracked your commercial program and made it available for free to the entire world.

Where are you getting this? I'm only saying piracy is not the same as theft. Read carefully, I'll explain it one more time as simply as I can:
If someone breaks into your house and steals your computer, this is theft. You no longer have the computer.
If someone cracks your program and uses it without paying, this is piracy. You still have the program.

[setarip_old]

@HyperHacker

One last time - You are not going to convince me (or anyone else) that "piracy" (theft of intellectual property) is not a form of "theft". So, from my hippie days:

Give it a rest...

and, I'm outta here ;>}

[Wilbert]

@setarip_old,

One last time - You are not going to convince me (or anyone else) that "piracy" (theft of intellectual property) is not a form of "theft".

Please stop talking for all of us, because you don't. In fact you have been proven false, at least if you live in America:

The notion of copyright infringement as theft was clearly addressed in the 1985 Supreme Court decision of Dowling v. United States. While this case involved hard goods (phonograph records), Justice Harry Blackmun was most certainly speaking of abstract property (copyrights) when he wrote these words in his majority decision overturning Dowling's conviction of interstate transport of stolen property: "(copyright infringement) does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud... The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use."

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...610#post768610

I see that you also participated in that thread, but apparently your memory is short.

[HyperHacker]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

@HyperHacker

One last time - You are not going to convince me (or anyone else) that "piracy" (theft of intellectual property) is not a form of "theft". So, from my hippie days:

Give it a rest...

and, I'm outta here ;>}

And one last time - that is not what I am trying to do. I did not say that piracy is not a form of theft. I said piracy is not identical to theft. Just like a calculator is a form of computer, but is not identical to your PC.

[setarip_old]

I did not say that piracy is not a form of theft.

Okay...

[spuddog]

Thank You Wilbert, for the excellent quote.

[celtic_druid]

Don't think that there is any country where when your copyright is infringed you can go down to the local cop shop, fill in a report then file an insurance claim.

[setarip_old]

Don't think that there is any country where when your copyright is infringed you can go down to the local cop shop, fill in a report then file an insurance claim.

Maybe not, but here in the U.S. (based on a far more current successful implementation of felony laws than the 1985 Supreme Court finding cited by "Wilbert"), you'll find that the Department of Justice continues to aggressively pursue and successfully prosecute (including jail sentences) people it refers to as having perpetrated "intellectual property theft". Read the entire content of each of the following links:

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/200...ch_060620.html
Multiple references to "intellectual property theft"

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/ip.html
"criminal copyright infringement"

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/April/04_crm_263.htm
"We are committed to combating this theft and will pursue these thieves regardless of their location.”

And then, there's the "Family Entertainment Copyright Act":

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@D&summ2=m&

[Wilbert]

Maybe not, but here in the U.S. (based on a far more current successful implementation of felony laws than the 1985 Supreme Court finding cited by "Wilbert"), you'll find that the Department of Justice continues to aggressively pursue and successfully prosecute (including jail sentences) people it refers to as having perpetrated "intellectual property theft".

Just because your DoJ calls it theft, that doesn't imply it is theft. It's up to the courts to address that.

[delacroixp]

The American legal system has developed an ever increasing level of sophistication... to deal with ever more subtle means of theft... which is probably a real sign of 'progress and developement' and...
Software Piracy is theft as much as stealing a TV, breathing oxygen (if someone else is getting less or not enough) or spying on your neighbours wife tanning nude in the backyard...

Sure, theft is theft, if you can prove it or anybody cares about it anyway... but is theft always a bad thing...
What happenned to the good ol days of Robin Hood when it was a noble cause (among many) to steal from the rich and give to the poor......
Picasso said: 'Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.'.

Life is all about theft... if you believe it...



Pascal

[setarip_old]

@Wilbert

Please read the content of the last link I provided:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@D&summ2=m&

The "Familiy Copyright Act" is now a LAW in the U.S. - and it refers to THEFT of intellectual property:

Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 109-9

Family Entertainment and Copyright Act of 2005 -Title I: Artists' Rights and Theft Prevention - Artists' Rights and Theft Prevention Act of 2005 or ART Act"

But, perhaps more importantly, semantics aside, the activities covered by this law (and the others that the DOJ is operating under) define them as CRIMINAL (not simply civil") behavior...

[Wilbert]

@setarip_old,

Please read the content of the last link I provided:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@D&summ2=m&

The "Familiy Copyright Act" is now a LAW in the U.S. - and it refers to THEFT of intellectual property:

Did you even read it yourself? In the act itself, it is not stated that copyright infringement is theft. Theft is not even mentioned in the act itself, except only in the name of the act (in my view for misleading purposes).

[setarip_old]

@Wilbert

This law, as well as several of the other newer than 1985 laws that the DOJ is utilizing, refer to either "theft" or "criminal" or "felonious" in their titles. The title is a blanket for that entire law.

And yes, I certainly did read "Family Copyright Act" (which is now a law)that states, among other things:

(Title I: Artists' Rights and Theft Prevention Sec. 103) Establishes criminal penalties for willful copyright infringement by the distribution of a computer program, musical work, motion picture or other audiovisual work, or sound recording being prepared for commercial distribution by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if the person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.

As I said previously, But, perhaps more importantly, semantics aside, the activities covered by this law (and the others that the DOJ is operating under) define them as CRIMINAL (not simply "civil") behavior.

I guess if some of the posters to this thread cannot accept the term "theft", perhaps they should simply substitute the phrase "criminal act"...

[Wilbert]

This law, as well as several of the other newer than 1985 laws that the DOJ is utilizing, refer to either "theft" or "criminal" or "felonious" in their titles. The title is a blanket for that entire law.

No it's not. What matters is what is stated in the law. Ask Adam about this if you want an opinion of a legal expert.

I guess if some of the posters to this thread cannot accept the term "theft", perhaps they should simply substitute the phrase "criminal act"...

I don't disagree with this.

[setarip_old]

I don't disagree with this.

Okay...

By the way, with no slight intended toward "Adam" - As I've posted here and at several other forums, I don't believe it's a wise thing to seek legal advice or opinions from posters at forums, who can claim to be anything they choose ;>}

[int 21h]

This thread is painful to read. I won't take the time to inline quote all of the things I disagree with or have counter points to, but hopefully whoever I am replying to will take care of that for me

• While circumventing CSS is certainly illegal in the United States under the DMCA, the following passage in the DMCA provides anyone taken to court for simply copying DVDs to their hard drives with what is known as an 'affirmative' defense:
  "(d) OTHER RIGHTS, ETC., NOT AFFECTED- Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title." That means that while you may still be arrested and taken to court for it, as long as that is the only crime you are charged with, and as long as you can prove that is what you were actually doing, it is unlikely you will be found guilty (think self defense in a murder case, etc.) This does not give you the right to copy DVDs to your hard drive, make copies, and distribute them to your friends because of course this action would then invalidate your fair use defense, but for persons out there legitimately backing up DVDs that they own, copying those DVDs to their iPods, etc. there is a legal defense.
• Operation Buccaneer wasn't specifically targeted at DoD, or any group really. It was a typical law enforcement sting. One of the bigger goals was gathering information (this is common in any type of sting, drugs, mafia, etc.). Well, if DoD wasn't specifically targeted, why did we hear so much about them? DoD was made an example of because most of the members were doing more than just 'copyright infringement'. Some of them were selling apps and games on the side, one or two were involved in carding (in fact, many times hardware that winds up on a Topsite is obtained in this manner), they weren't just uploading and trading software. Many of the DoD people initially got pretty unrealistic sentences because they stonewalled authorities... except for Kent Kartadinata (email admin) who turned and in exchange, got no prison time. In almost all of the cases, after they were sentenced, their sentences were later reduced to much more realistic lengths (46 months -> 18 months, 30 months -> 30 days, 41 months -> 6 months community confinement [no jail]).
• Customs didn't go after the pirates, the pirates went after the pirates. James Cudnay came forward and offered logs+info for cash. He gave the feds the start to what they needed to go through with the operation, mainly information and an inside man. After they had that, they setup the fed Topsites to get evidence for arrests.
• In my opinion, copyright owners who fail to protect their copyright are just as culpable. What kind of decrease in piracy has Microsoft seen after the implementation of online activation? And then WGA? No government can be expected to protect everyone and their property from every eventuality, owners have to take some of the responsibility.
• Microsoft should be seen as a sort of aberration. Any computer with Windows on it, even pirated Windows, will increase their market share. Therefore they go after large distributors, large operations, etc. This has also been the case in the past (i.e. DirecTV waited until they had significant market share then began wide scale litigation and enforcement).
• The FCA was not the first act that made it illegal to distribute copyrighted materials online, the NET act was. The FCA simply made the penalties steeper. You can thank Bill Clinton and his Republican controlled congress for both the NET and the DMCA.