Capturing Old VHS...Do I really Need A VCR w/ S-Video Out?

_Durandal_ · 26th April 2006, 06:22

A buddy and I did a whole bunch of videos back in high school that we would like to convert to DVD. I'm wondering if it's worth it to invest in a VCR that has an S-Video output (as opposed to my current one that is strictly composite).

The editing software will consist mainly of VirtualDub & Vegas Video/DVD Architect. Let me know if you guys think it's worth the investment, or if you think it would be just plain foolish!

setarip_old · 26th April 2006, 06:45

Hi!

Why not do a short test run with your present VCR - and see if you're satisfied with the results?

Mug Funky · 26th April 2006, 07:41

in short: probably not.

if you're buying a VCR specially for capturing, get one with a TBC built in.

the bandwidth of VHS is so low that improper comb filtering wont hurt it too much - the bandwidth is usually insufficient to cause crosstalk in a cheap comb filter.

however, a TBC can improve matters a lot, especially with old VHS - TBC corrects jitter in the sync pulses that indicate the start of a scanline (TBC = Time Base Corrector), so you don't get the horrible wibbly horizontal lines you'd normally get.

bear in mind that a VCR equipped with a TBC is likely to be more expensive than one with s-video, but it's a much safer bet.

that said, i'd probably just capture with whatever you have and postprocess it. "rainbows" from composite input can be removed post capture easier than timebase errors can (though both are a pain).

note that VHS is a composite format (ie all signals muxed into 1 cable). so you lose nothing from outputting in composite. the badness comes in when you capture, because your capture card has to split the composite signal into 3 distinct signals. an s-vhs VCR would be doing the same thing effectively, and the only difference is the quality of the analog filters used, which varies a lot in both VCRs and capture cards.

[edit]
make sure you haven't got any "sharpening" happening in your VCR. it's more trouble than it's worth. much better to sharpen after it's captured.

AVIL · 26th April 2006, 10:00

@_Durandal_

I agree with Mug Funky about the TBC. In my short experience capturing with s-video, the result is worst than with composite. Equal chroma separation and more electrical interferences. I've captured from a camcorder (not a VCR) and with a cheap cable. So, as advice, buy good s-video cable.

Good luck

_Durandal_ · 26th April 2006, 14:51

Thank you all for responding! The information provided is very helpful. I had at one point tried capturing and really thought the results were ok, but started reading forums and wondered if they could be any better. Obviously that's where the idea of an S-VHS VCR came in.

Of course, now with the replies, I will make sure to turn sharpening off on the VCR's end and have some fun

. Thanks again guys!!

P.S. If the results are starting to come out funny I will definitely look into a VCR with TBC!

Serbianboss · 26th April 2006, 15:04

Sorry for maybe offtopic, but i am interesting in VHS with noise reduction filter like Panasonic NVSV121EBS.

Does someone know does VHS recorders with noise reduction filters worth?

best regard

rfmmars · 26th April 2006, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serbianboss

Sorry for maybe offtopic, but i am interesting in VHS with noise reduction filter like Panasonic NVSV121EBS.

Does someone know does VHS recorders with noise reduction filters worth?

best regard

JVC 9900 $499.00 US

Excellent

Richard
photorecall.net

LocalH · 28th April 2006, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mug Funky

note that VHS is a composite format (ie all signals muxed into 1 cable). so you lose nothing from outputting in composite.

Well, to be pedantic, I was under the impression that even VHS stores luma and chroma separately. Not that VHS has enough resolution to make a difference either way, though (and of course, it also depends on the source used to record on the tape in the first place).

pyroglizmus · 1st May 2006, 00:12

On subject of S Video when I tried capture off VHS thru camcorder to laptop picture with S-video cable resultant picture woz in Black and white. Any ideas why?
(Very very newbie)

Qjimbo · 2nd May 2006, 17:09

Were you using a SCART -> SVideo adaptor? If so, thats why, most VCRs don't output SVideo through scart.

7th May 2006, 22:25

Some comparisons caps I did quickly - BT878 capture card, huffyuv. All caps used the same settings.

1. From a mid-range consumer VCR, no TBC, composite output:

2. From a Professional VCR, TBC off, composite output:

3. As 2, TBC on:

4. As 3, using s-video output instead:

My thoughts, (although I am not an expert), the professional deck actually produces much noiser output. I don't know if this is because there is more detail. But the consumer deck seems to have the most pleasing image quality!

No. 1 has blown out highlights, but this could probably be fixed by lowering the contrast in the driver settings. It also seems to have the worst edge enhancement. (There is no sharpenss setting on this deck).

Colours seem more vivid using the professional deck. Maybe over staurated? Could probably do with lowering the saturation in the driver settings.

The effect of the TBC can be clearly seen on the chair back when comparing 2 and 3. It alsoe seems to make the whole picture brighter. Why would that be?

The s-video output seems to have improved colours.

LocalH · 7th May 2006, 23:51

Was that an external TBC, or built into the professional VTR? Regardless, you should look for level adjustments (black level, video level, chroma, hue, and the system phase and subcarrier). Mucking with the latter two settings probably won't really mess with anything unless you're trying to use the VTR in a professional environment, where the video has to be timed properly, but on a professional VTR the settings should nonetheless be there.

The TBC looks like it's blowing out the whites as well, so you'll want to bring the video level down if you can. The saturation can be a matter of personal taste, but I would recommend bringing it down ever so slightly. Black level seems fine, as does hue.

8th May 2006, 08:04

The TBC is built in to the deck. This is it:
http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=SR-S388E

I cannot find the adjustments you mention, maybe it's not as professional as I think. I got it failry cheap off ebay, it seemed like a good buy as there weren't many hours on the clock.

Anyway, brightness, contrast, saturation etc. are easily adjusted in the btwincap drivers.

LocalH · 8th May 2006, 18:25

The only caveat there is if the TBC itself is already pushing the level too high, such that the white details are actually destroyed. I don't think it is, but it's entirely possible. If you adjust it on the capture end and it still looks slightly washed out, then you'd have to find a way to bring down the TBC's output. It's possible that the TBC simply doesn't have any adjustments (as there are also professional-level procamps which can handle level adjustments without the TBC functions).

26th April 2006, 06:22	#1 \| Link
_Durandal_ Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2	Capturing Old VHS...Do I really Need A VCR w/ S-Video Out? A buddy and I did a whole bunch of videos back in high school that we would like to convert to DVD. I'm wondering if it's worth it to invest in a VCR that has an S-Video output (as opposed to my current one that is strictly composite). The editing software will consist mainly of VirtualDub & Vegas Video/DVD Architect. Let me know if you guys think it's worth the investment, or if you think it would be just plain foolish!

26th April 2006, 07:41	#3 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	in short: probably not. if you're buying a VCR specially for capturing, get one with a TBC built in. the bandwidth of VHS is so low that improper comb filtering wont hurt it too much - the bandwidth is usually insufficient to cause crosstalk in a cheap comb filter. however, a TBC can improve matters a lot, especially with old VHS - TBC corrects jitter in the sync pulses that indicate the start of a scanline (TBC = Time Base Corrector), so you don't get the horrible wibbly horizontal lines you'd normally get. bear in mind that a VCR equipped with a TBC is likely to be more expensive than one with s-video, but it's a much safer bet. that said, i'd probably just capture with whatever you have and postprocess it. "rainbows" from composite input can be removed post capture easier than timebase errors can (though both are a pain). note that VHS is a composite format (ie all signals muxed into 1 cable). so you lose nothing from outputting in composite. the badness comes in when you capture, because your capture card has to split the composite signal into 3 distinct signals. an s-vhs VCR would be doing the same thing effectively, and the only difference is the quality of the analog filters used, which varies a lot in both VCRs and capture cards. [edit] make sure you haven't got any "sharpening" happening in your VCR. it's more trouble than it's worth. much better to sharpen after it's captured. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

26th April 2006, 14:51	#5 \| Link
_Durandal_ Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2	Thank you all for responding! The information provided is very helpful. I had at one point tried capturing and really thought the results were ok, but started reading forums and wondered if they could be any better. Obviously that's where the idea of an S-VHS VCR came in. Of course, now with the replies, I will make sure to turn sharpening off on the VCR's end and have some fun . Thanks again guys!! P.S. If the results are starting to come out funny I will definitely look into a VCR with TBC! Last edited by _Durandal_; 26th April 2006 at 14:56.

26th April 2006, 06:45	#2 \| Link
setarip_old Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16,267	Hi! Why not do a short test run with your present VCR - and see if you're satisfied with the results?

26th April 2006, 10:00	#4 \| Link
AVIL Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 418	@_Durandal_ I agree with Mug Funky about the TBC. In my short experience capturing with s-video, the result is worst than with composite. Equal chroma separation and more electrical interferences. I've captured from a camcorder (not a VCR) and with a cheap cable. So, as advice, buy good s-video cable. Good luck

26th April 2006, 15:04	#6 \| Link
Serbianboss Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 232	Sorry for maybe offtopic, but i am interesting in VHS with noise reduction filter like Panasonic NVSV121EBS. Does someone know does VHS recorders with noise reduction filters worth? best regard

1st May 2006, 00:12	#9 \| Link
pyroglizmus Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1	On subject of S Video when I tried capture off VHS thru camcorder to laptop picture with S-video cable resultant picture woz in Black and white. Any ideas why? (Very very newbie)

2nd May 2006, 17:09	#10 \| Link
Qjimbo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 85	Were you using a SCART -> SVideo adaptor? If so, thats why, most VCRs don't output SVideo through scart.

7th May 2006, 22:25	#11 \| Link
FlimsyFeet Guest Posts: n/a	Some comparisons caps I did quickly - BT878 capture card, huffyuv. All caps used the same settings. 1. From a mid-range consumer VCR, no TBC, composite output: 2. From a Professional VCR, TBC off, composite output: 3. As 2, TBC on: 4. As 3, using s-video output instead: My thoughts, (although I am not an expert), the professional deck actually produces much noiser output. I don't know if this is because there is more detail. But the consumer deck seems to have the most pleasing image quality! No. 1 has blown out highlights, but this could probably be fixed by lowering the contrast in the driver settings. It also seems to have the worst edge enhancement. (There is no sharpenss setting on this deck). Colours seem more vivid using the professional deck. Maybe over staurated? Could probably do with lowering the saturation in the driver settings. The effect of the TBC can be clearly seen on the chair back when comparing 2 and 3. It alsoe seems to make the whole picture brighter. Why would that be? The s-video output seems to have improved colours.

7th May 2006, 23:51	#12 \| Link
LocalH Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 135	Was that an external TBC, or built into the professional VTR? Regardless, you should look for level adjustments (black level, video level, chroma, hue, and the system phase and subcarrier). Mucking with the latter two settings probably won't really mess with anything unless you're trying to use the VTR in a professional environment, where the video has to be timed properly, but on a professional VTR the settings should nonetheless be there. The TBC looks like it's blowing out the whites as well, so you'll want to bring the video level down if you can. The saturation can be a matter of personal taste, but I would recommend bringing it down ever so slightly. Black level seems fine, as does hue.

8th May 2006, 08:04	#13 \| Link
FlimsyFeet Guest Posts: n/a	The TBC is built in to the deck. This is it: http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=SR-S388E I cannot find the adjustments you mention, maybe it's not as professional as I think. I got it failry cheap off ebay, it seemed like a good buy as there weren't many hours on the clock. Anyway, brightness, contrast, saturation etc. are easily adjusted in the btwincap drivers.

8th May 2006, 18:25	#14 \| Link
LocalH Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 135	The only caveat there is if the TBC itself is already pushing the level too high, such that the white details are actually destroyed. I don't think it is, but it's entirely possible. If you adjust it on the capture end and it still looks slightly washed out, then you'd have to find a way to bring down the TBC's output. It's possible that the TBC simply doesn't have any adjustments (as there are also professional-level procamps which can handle level adjustments without the TBC functions).