sysKin can't work on x264 anymore [Archive] - Page 3

shlezman

20th March 2005, 13:27

Iooking at the whole picture, I think that it's only natural and free-market normal behavior to seduce good engineers for ones firm.

After all it serves all sides, these young engineers are getting some experience that cannot be learned anywhere in the OS world and will produce even better software that anyone can enjoy (for 20$ or so).

Nero is capable of contributing much to the community (and to itself) by pushing new and better software into the market, and we will all benefit eventually, if not directly then by getting more competition and more products in this field.

The world is full of talented engineers and students that can fill in for anyone. The x264 project enjoyed great advance in the past months and I'm sure that it will continue, new blood is always good. There is no need to get bitter over such incidents, It is not as bad as some may think it is.

Another enforcement to JonnyV, If I could recruit these guys myself I defiantly would.

niv

20th March 2005, 15:55

I saw the post on the 18 but didn't dig the title.
Originally posted by Doom9
... And contracts that forbid you to do certain things are not unheard of. I'm not allowed to write certain kind of software for the next 2 or 3 years as well because of a previous engagement.

It depends on where you live here in Israel for example a labor court ruled that a contract clause forbidin you to work on some subject in the future are illegal. The court accepted that ppl are allowed to make a living the best way they now how. ovcourse if the company took out a patent- the patent is safe, but the human knowledge is NOT the property of a company...

napalm

20th March 2005, 17:33

Why can' we hire these talented guys, or future examples back to the OS world? I wonder how much Ahead is paying, and whether it is not possible to compete with a PayPal Donate button?

A crucial issue for OS to truly flourish in all areas is remuneration. This even goes for amateur music and film scenes too. There is a gigantic force out there that is tending to getting rid of the corporate way of production (at least in the "soft" media world. Some believe it's a revolution.

(which is my and many ppl's "ideal". and since when are ideals bad? It's the only thing that has ever gotten us anywhere)

CruNcher

20th March 2005, 18:14

Folks lets keep things civil here. We all love syskin and will miss his work quite a bit. But you heard it from the horses mouth he is not going to leave the community he said. This is not a funeral. He just may not have the time or ability to lend as much effort to opensource projects for a while.

At least not as Syskin ;)

@Bonzi
As others allready stated it isn't even allowed to work for about 2 years after leaving the company on any other project so it would be dumb if it isn't also clearly written in the contract that free time work on other similiar projects isn't allowed too.
This would be something i never would sign or sign with anger i wouldn't let companies dictate my free time away from work. This is killing individuality but it's happening more often today, in our capitalistic world, we are morphing into a only result based good.
Projects like XviD and X264 let companies that are based on end consumer products lose money and Neros Main Productline is based on it,why do you think every Mpeg-4 part2 Standalone Player today has a XviD logo on it and advertises with XviD compatibility don't you think Nero or DivX Networks would be happier when only their logo would be on it?
Also the Linux move recently by Nero for Nero Burning Rom is strategy more then let us being nice else they would give it away without a Nero Reloaded license required, they just fear free OpenSource programms like k3b/cdrecord because they get more and more into peoples minds.
They fear to lose their Jobs because of that, but would it really be bad if that would happen?
I would see OpenSource projects as a threat for big ones especialy in the end consumer world NeroDigital's Productline is settled in.

Sorry to say that, i hope people will forgive me but i can't really say that i'm happy for Syskin i mean in one way i'm but in another i'm not.

Neo Neko

20th March 2005, 19:37

Originally posted by napalm
Why can' we hire these talented guys, or future examples back to the OS world? I wonder how much Ahead is paying, and whether it is not possible to compete with a PayPal Donate button?

Technically we can and have. Anyone heard of the Mozilla group? That will not work for us though. Unless someone here is a closet millionare. But it is entirely possible that if enough of us got together and made donations that we could finacially support a few full time coders for a project. X264 foundation anyone?

Originally posted by napalm
A crucial issue for OS to truly flourish in all areas is remuneration.

Then we have our bases covered. OSS gives experience to those who might have otherwise not been hired for lack of experience. Plus it offers the gratification of using your skills to create something everyone can enjoy. Which often leads to respect and admiration from others. The only thing technically missing would be something like financiall support. But that is not absolutely necessary. Coders code for the fun of it. Just as other artists practice their art for the sake of their art. Financial support does make parts of the process much easier though. :p But it is not absolutely necessary.

BoNz1

20th March 2005, 20:15

Originally posted by CruNcher

@Bonzi
As others allready stated it isn't even allowed to work for about 2 years after leaving the company on any other project so it would be dumb if it isn't also clearly written in the contract that free time work on other similiar projects isn't allowed too.

CruNcher, first of all when I said if they were allowed to work on a their spare time I was being completely hypothetical. I realize that they cannot work on XviD or x264.

Anyway, it is complete bullshit to have something in a contract that says you cannot work for a competing company for 2 years after working on a project. You don't have to sign such bullshit. But, I realize that companies like Nero want people to sign these sort of contracts. These sort of contracts are the norm in the field I work in as well. But frankly, at least, in my opinion these clauses violate just about every labour law I can think of. At least where I come from, when you leave the job, you can ask to have this clause removed. And there is nothing the company can do about it. Your contract _does_ not extend past the time of your employment.

bond

20th March 2005, 23:27

Originally posted by JohnV
"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are. So we welcome (and hope) that projects such as .x264 and Xvid can continue to expand. Where possible, we'll support them as we do with FAAD2"ok, these are nice words, but the only thing that counts is whether syskin will be allowed to continue working on xvid and x264 regularily?

yes or no?

JohnV

20th March 2005, 23:39

Originally posted by bond
ok, these are nice words, but the only thing that counts is whether syskin will be allowed to continue working on xvid and x264 regularily?

yes or no? I don't know, depends on case. Maybe something similar contributions as bobololo has made for x264.
But of course it is problematic and not likely that if he has access to inhouse sources, that he could continue totally as before.

bond

20th March 2005, 23:41

so that sounds like a "no" for me :p ;)

JohnV

20th March 2005, 23:55

Originally posted by bond
so that sounds like a "no" for me :p ;) It is most probably "no" if you mean that he could continue exactly as before while having possibly access to commercial source and methods.
What do you expect? But some contributions similar to bobololo's to x264 shouldn't be totally out of question.

hpn

21st March 2005, 00:53

Nobody is irreplaceable. Absolutely nobody. Just wait and see. I'm sure other really good programmers will be tempted by the cult status and the love of the community that working on such essential tool like a free AVCodec guarantees.

Good luck to sysKin and akupenguin. The guys really deserve some reward for their hard work and skills.

celtic_druid

21st March 2005, 00:54

Well look at daemon-tools. If I recall correctly Ahead paid them to write Nero's virtual drive and they were allowed to continue developing their own, just no .nrg support.

JohnV

21st March 2005, 02:05

*sigh* at Doom9's speculative tabloid journalism on the front page. :rolleyes:
Nero Digital is a co-op of 2 companies, Nero and Ateme. I have not heard anything which would indicate that something would change here, and I really don't think it would be even very simple due to contracts, so this "Considering that ateme has developed the MPEG-4 video codecs for Nero so far..." etc gives weird impression to me.
Funny how speculations start flying when known names are in question..

I wish somebody would just close this thread already.. There's been enough speculations. I'm sure we can share some real information for the community after some time.

snacky

21st March 2005, 02:40

Originally posted by hpn
Good luck to sysKin and akupenguin. The guys really deserve some reward for their hard work and skills.

Agree totally. sysKin's work isn't familiar to me, but Akupenguin's work has been a huge gift to the OSS community that IMHO didn't always get the amount of recognition it probably should have.

If nothing else, it's good to see someone get noticed, recognized, and rewarded for his talent. I should also add that Akupenguin is extraordinarily patient and informative in answering user questions, both here and elsewhere.

Bluedan

21st March 2005, 03:01

To focus back on x264 future:
On one point the info given here so far remains too vague apart from syskins role: DID akupenguin sign a contract or NOT.
And in case of 'YES' is it restrictive as Syskins' is said to be, which I assume?
If this was the case x264 developpment would really suffer a significant slowdown until skilful individuals join in instead.
So, for consideration of x264 "survival" this seems to be the main issue ATM.

SirCanealot

21st March 2005, 03:51

I just wanted to state my 2 cents...

I think it's possible that Nero/Ateme just wants to add talented coders to their team...
I think it's equally possible they want to trash XVid and x264 to futher their own codec...
I also think it's equally possible that Nero have hired sysKin to develop a secret codec-based weapon capable of... DESTROYING TEH INTERWEB BY COMPRESSING IT ONTO A FLOPPY DISK... THEN STAMPING ON THE FLOPPY DISK, LOL, OMG, OH N0S, LOL, ZOMG.

See where I'm going? ^^

I have to agree that speculation is pretty much pointless, unless you're just doing it for fun. There's no cold facts here, and really... who cares?
I wish both of them success in their careers. While I admit I was disapointed when I read at first, I'm happy for them now. As several people have said: they were offered the chance to do what they enjoy in their part time on a pay cheuque. Considering the expenses involved in being a student for many, turning this down could have been silly :P
I just hope it's a big, fat cheque with lots of Zeros on :D

And as other have cited, it's not like this will be the end for a big movement like x264. There will be other coders I'm sure. While I feel that x264 development MAY be harmed by this for a while, I consider it a good thing if such skilled coders are working in video compression but with a pay cheque as motivation :P

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Take it how you will ^^

RadicalEd

21st March 2005, 05:04

ZOOMJ NOT DESTROY MY INTERSPACE111 D: D: D:

lithoc

21st March 2005, 07:16

Just my 2 cent point of view.
Sorry for my bad english.

I think those company is playing a very high risk or smart game over here.

For example, XVID & X264 is a open source software and as syskin and other have left but the source still remain open.

With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software. Will anyone find out?

This is the weak point of open source, where anyone can copy their source and modify/improvise their code and become proprietary code.

It's not fair for some small project with big potential.
Would the company is force to release their source code if get caught or face any legal case?

Would the author of the project manage to hire the lawyer to fight the long battle?

MSlv

21st March 2005, 08:33

Originally posted by lithoc
With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software.
Well, for now, Nero Digital's AVC is more mature than x264, so there's no point in using code from an inferior codec, right?

This is the weak point of open source, where anyone can copy their source and modify/improvise their code and become proprietary code.
I strongly believe that the license forbids or should forbid this. I think it states something like you are allowed to modify the source but you must release the software in the same way you got it: free. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am).

Doom9

21st March 2005, 08:43

*sigh* at Doom9's speculative tabloid journalism on the front page.If you are willing to make an official statement why you hire people with skills for which you already have a good partner, be my guest. A knowhow rampup is usually due to relationship breaking or the one partner trying to do everyting on their own (which in turn can also lead to an end of the relationship). Such things are by no means unheard of in the business world, and since there are many precedents, it is a valid conclusion to be drawn. And where would be be if journalists were only allowed to write what others would want them to write, not what they think?

video

21st March 2005, 08:47

Originally posted by dragongodz

of course the post video responded to was not even about hardware or commercial use by companies of free versions of programs. since he tried to use that as some sort of reason to discredit open source/freeware programs as competition i had to respond to that aswell.
[/B]

I feel You have been lost, a little bit. I've no problem with open source. Apparelntly I love open source. My problem is mpegla. I feel that, the open source community should coming out with some really free and efficient video compression technlology, and drop the whole mpeg scene. Consider for example ogg. We already have a good container, matroska.

Doom9

21st March 2005, 09:34

With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software. Will anyone find out?Chances are that this would happen. Then it depends on who created the code.. if the copyright holder used is own code in another non open source project, but only his code, that shouldn't be a problem because the GPL does support ownership of copyright and you can do with your code as you please. But, if you create a derivative work of somebody elses GPL'ed work, then unless you only use it internally, you have to release the sources for your derivative work.

Hence, except for Sigma, the available MPEG-4 ASP codecs are not an XviD ripoffs (XviD is a very good codec so there's ample reasons to take something from that project) but legit implementations. And I have my doubts that long time open source contributors would suddenly forget where they came from and commit GPL violations willingly.

video

21st March 2005, 09:55

Originally posted by Doom9
Chances are that this would happen. Then it depends on who created the code.. if the copyright holder used is own code in another non open source project, but only his code, that shouldn't be a problem because the GPL does support ownership of copyright and you can do with your code as you please. But, if you create a derivative work of somebody elses GPL'ed work, then unless you only use it internally, you have to release the sources for your derivative work.

Disagree. People who have been released code as open source, won't do that. I thikg it's against the morale of a (formerly) open source developer.

I feel this topic developing towards unpleasant arguments. a huge amount of bashing of ahead and JohnV (as representative of ahead) and now the second sights about akupenguin and sysKin. please don't do that..

edit: typos

stephanV

21st March 2005, 10:22

This thread is getting a little bit ridiculous now... So now we are moving from accusing Nero of buying out competition towards accusing sysKin of possibly violating the GPL?

sysKin is not the property of the open-source community or anyone else than himself. Therefor, we as users cannot make any "claim" on him unless we would cough up enough money and let him sign a contract with "us". Nero, however, does have the financial means to hire his services and clauses that forbid people to use knowledge gained during working hours on other competing projects is quite a common practice in the business world. Of course, you could argue if x.264 is a competing project, which according to JohnV or his superiors it isn't.
Originally posted by JohnV
Ok, I got a comment from higher management, because these "theories" seem to get out of hand. And anyway, it was me who contacted sysKin, so if I am personally the "big evil corporate" then so be it.. :rolleyes:

"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are. So we welcome (and hope) that projects such as .x264 and Xvid can continue to expand. Where possible, we'll support them as we do with FAAD2"

I don't know what it says exactly in Radek's contract, but I was said it depends on the case if he can contribute, which would point that contributing on x264 is not totally forbidden like virus claims. Even more it was specifically said by our Executive Director that open source communities are not our competitors.

But the only one who has participated in this thread and really knows the contract is sysKin himself, so I will leave any comments about whether he can/want/has time to work on x.264 up to him.

This is a thread where everybody should be happy for sysKin (and not unhappy for ourselves) and where we should look for ways to continue x264 (and not for one conspiracy theory after another).

Doom9

21st March 2005, 10:40

Disagree. People who have been released code as open source, won't do that. I thikg it's against the morale of a (formerly) open source developer.I think you misunderstood.. my answer was to the question whether it's possible that open source code ends up in a closed source project. That's a generic question and it has happened in the past, for instance the Sigma codec, or all those router manufacturers that use linux and iptables without releasing the source code for the firmware.

I very much doubt that the people involved here would engage in such practices, but there are other less scrupulous people in this world (and no, that's not directed at Nero or Ateme either.. but companies like the ones mentioned in the first paragraph of this post).

video

21st March 2005, 10:59

Originally posted by Doom9
I think you misunderstood.. my answer was to the question whether it's possible that open source code ends up in a closed source project. That's a generic question and it has happened in the past, for instance the Sigma codec, or all those router manufacturers that use linux and iptables without releasing the source code for the firmware.

I very much doubt that the people involved here would engage in such practices, but there are other less scrupulous people in this world (and no, that's not directed at Nero or Ateme either.. but companies like the ones mentioned in the first paragraph of this post).

Doom9 there is no problem, it's a legal issue. regarding GPL colsed source projects can use open source code in the following fashion:
a) it should be noted
b) software portions using open source parts should be released for the public as open source

Towards you i have no doubt that it wouldn't happen. Router projects: they use the vanilla linux code even noted which version of linux they are using, believe me

temporance

21st March 2005, 11:08

Originally posted by video
regarding GPL colsed source projects can use open source code in the following fashion:
a) it should be noted
b) software portions using open source parts should be released for the public as open sourceNot quite. It does not have to be noted (other than the GPL boilerplate), but the source of everything that links (statically or dynamically) to the GPL code must be released under the terms of the GPL, not to the public, but to everyone who receives the binary "closed source" project. IANAL.

Back on topic, good luck to sysKin and all others hired on the basis of their open source work. Hopefully this is encouragement to others who will use open source projects like x264 as a means of showcasing their talents: a kind of virtual resumé or curriculum vitae.

Sagittaire

21st March 2005, 11:11

This thread is getting a little bit ridiculous now... So now we are moving from accusing Nero of buying out competition towards accusing sysKin of possibly violating the GPL?

yes ... 130 posts for anything ... too much X-Files fan's in this forum ...

Syskin is free to work for Nero
Nero is free to contact Syskin

that's all ... :D

sasam

21st March 2005, 11:26

To NERO:
Why don't you make your codec vfw and sell it separately. I know many people that would pay more money for vfw codec than for whole NeroVision Express, and I like to use my VirtualDub, adobe premiere filters and functions. In my eyes you are no competition to on2 vp7 codec just because their codec can be used anywhere.
What is the reason for this? You can still sell NeroVision to beginner users, but professionals require a lot more...

Soulhunter

21st March 2005, 11:39

Originally posted by sasam

To NERO:
Why don't you make your codec vfw and sell it separately. I know many people that would pay more money for vfw codec than for whole NeroVision Express, and I like to use my VirtualDub, adobe premiere filters and functions. In my eyes you are no competition to on2 vp7 codec just because their codec can be used anywhere.
What is the reason for this? You can still sell NeroVision to beginner users, but professionals require a lot more...

Yeah, but why via the "archaic" vfw architecture ???

Simple CLI DS encoders would be better imo...

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5324/neroenc8ze.png

Bye