sysKin can't work on x264 anymore

[superdump]

Before I begin this post I would like to make the point that I wish for this to remain as a friendly discussion. It would be a bad thing if this were to degenerate into a flame war or similar and the discussion be lost and essentially barred from the forum.

There are few developers working on x264 at the moment and I would like to attempt to gather more interest.

A number of highly skilled individuals receiving offers they cannot realistically refuse for careers in this field. My personal view is one of complete support for the individuals as if I were to be in a similar situation I would do the same.

There is a suspicion, which may be unfounded though seeming increasingly likely, that Nero is trying to buy up all the skilled programmers working on rival freeware opensource codecs (XviD and x264 at least) to reduce competition and boost their workforce. Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral (unless you're anti-corporation ;)) about this, however it is saddening to see projects such as this go under because of such tactics.

So, my theory is that I will do my best to learn C, assembler and all about AVC as fast as I can so that I may be able to contribute to the project and later be bought up by Nero. :) Who's with me?!

x264's progress has been very promising of late as the members of this forum may well know as I imagine you have been following fairly closely. akupenguin is a legend and I for one am incredibly grateful for his work on this encoder, but I feel we should not rely on him to keep it going.

Find us at #x264 on irc.freenode.net

Over and out.

[pest]

i would like to join in any way...

i'm skilled at c, c++, asm

i'm mostly into algorithms
rate-control and frame-type decisions are not my list :(

and i just don't know where i could be usefull
someone needs 8x8 dct in 3dnow? ;)

regards

[superdump]

Cool. I'm by no means a project leader or anything. I just felt like posting on here after hearing the 'good/bad' news. You probably want to talk to akupenguin (pengvado on IRC) about what's going on. I didn't expect such a quick response. :)

[pest]

the only problem is, that i'm working on a big project on my own...
but reading for example the xvid-source is no problem for me,
...see you on irc, next week :)

edit: oh read too fast, i try to contact akupenguin instead

[superdump]

Come on IRC anyway, it's probably easier to talk to him there.

Nice to see another person who uses lots of smilies. :D

[virus]

Yes, there we go. Radek has just signed a contract with Nero and won't even finish his new ME for x264. And possibly won't work on XviD anymore too. akupenguin has been invited by Nero, though he has not signed anything yet, so he still works on the codec (and he does a lot of job on x264!).

The point is: x264 is at risk of dying by the beginning of the summer (aku won't work on it for the summer I guess, but it's hard to tell what will happen later - he may not return back). All of that thanks to Nero's tactics. Cheers, Bill Gates would be proud of you, dear Nero Software.

Believe me, there are many things that can be said. I just want to make some points. Nero's guys say they do this to give an "opportunity to let people work on what they like". Yeah.

Then, why instead of hiring some talented professionals which can work full-time, they want to recruit a couple of talented students that can only work part-time or for a summer internship? And why just after the person has become a regular contributor to x264? And why now, they couldn't wait until this person graduates for example? Why, if they do that just for getting good people (and not for destroying the competition), they don't allow explicitly any more work on x264?

My personal answer is simple: because that "we give you an opportunity" thingie is just an excuse for trying to destroy their best competitor. And that way they hurt an entire community too, but who cares about the casualties? Getting more and more money is more important after all, no? Think about it, next time you offer them your betatesting time for free. Anyway, this is just my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Anyway I want to make well clear that I'm speaking against Nero and not against anyone, especially Radek who, I assume, needs money for paying his studies, and so of course he made a good choice (from his standpoint). I feel that people should know about Nero's tactics anyway.

I really would like to have time to learn the standard and try to help, but I lack aku's and sysKin's talent for doing so. And I also lack time, since I'm not a student anymore (and you know, open source software mainly blossoms in the universities).

I just hope some new skilled regular contributors for the core may appear soon. Otherwise, the project is likely to stall for a long time. I still hope in akupenguin, because he may be able to help again in the future and because he's really a great coder, but seeing how people is simply disappearing after touching x264 and how much work the codec still needs, I'm a bit depressed. And very, very angry.

cheers,
virus :(

[pest]

i would go if bill himself phones ;)

i've followed some of these things on hydrogenaudio, and yes it's sad
i'm no student...but...
now i feel like dropping my auspicious wavelet-codec :D
i'm reading doom9 since 4 years
perhaps it's time to contribute?

i have the feeling that the main part of the core is done
and now it's time to optimize the whole thing
and that's what i love

[Maximillius]

Originally posted by virus
Believe me, there are many things that can be said. I just want to make some points. Nero's guys say they do this to give an "opportunity to let people work on what they like". Yeah.

Well if this wasn't something that they wanted to work on, they wouldn't have accepted Nero's offer. It's not like Nero can force anyone to leave the projects they are working on to come work for them. Secondly, what is such the big deal about Nero wanting to hire good programmers to work for them? Are they only supposed to hire the crappy programmers? I don't get it.

[superdump]

OT: You have a wavelett codec? Post a thread about it so we can see. :)

[Doom9]

Well, it's sad but that's the world of business for you.

There have been many other examples of that sort in the past:
Part of Nero's AAC encoder team (old HA fellows will remember)
DVDShrink
Derrow (321 Software)
Brent Beyeler (bbmpeg, he works for Mainconcept if I'm not mistaken)

We all need to make a living somehow.. and if you write software as a hobby and get a good offer to do it professionally it makes sense to take it. And contracts that forbid you to do certain things are not unheard of. I'm not allowed to write certain kind of software for the next 2 or 3 years as well because of a previous engagement. Good thing nobody ruled out work as a webmaster and forum admin ;)

Something gets me wondering though: Ateme is their video codec partner and Nero didn't really need anybody working on video codecs. Makes one think, doesn't it?

And it could've been Microsoft after all. If anyone is interested, Microsoft is actually looking for video and audio engineers.

[superdump]

I think Nero use in-house decoders in their software releases, in which case they would need codec engineers for this, but surely they already have some?

Some good points their Doom9. I also remember a lot of people at HA getting 'eaten up' by Nero but as you say, and I completely agree, if they get an offer to do what they're already doing while getting paid for it then why not? :)

[Sirber]

Did divx bought xvid devs?

[virus]

Originally posted by Maximillius
Secondly, what is such the big deal about Nero wanting to hire good programmers to work for them? Are they only supposed to hire the crappy programmers? I don't get it.
I've already made my point clear on the subject, just read what I wrote after the sentence you've quoted. I just want to remind that akupenguin and sysKin *aren't* the only two smart programmers on the face of earth with knowledge on video coding. So it's not really "hire those two or you're out of business".

AFAIK Nero is a German firm. And, for example, German universities produce several good graduated coders with experience on video coding, because there's quite a bit of research on this field there. Same applies to nearby France. Yet, they roam to USA and Australia to hire two students. Two talented ones, but not yet professionals.

You see I'm very skeptical about that. I don't want to build a conspiracy theory at all costs, but I see too much coincidences here, especially considering x264's outstanding rise in the last 3 months. Radek has worked for years with XviD for example, but only recently he has joined x264. Same applies to akupenguin, who has been contacted right after becoming the de-facto x264's lead developer and producing several important work on it.

This makes you think.


@Doom9:

"Ateme is their video codec partner and Nero didn't really need anybody working on video codecs. Makes one think, doesn't it?"

Good point :)

[Doom9]

I've already made my point clear on the subject, just read what I wrote after the sentence you've quoted. I just want to remind that akupenguin and sysKin *aren't* the only two smart programmers on the face of earth with knowledge on video coding. So it's not really "hire those two or you're out of business".
Put yourself in Nero's position though and things look quite differently. Hey, we have our biggest competitor trying to hire off people regularly. And considering they have a quasi monopoly, they can affort higher salaries, and eventually crushing us by buying projects. It isn't just about people being good, it's also about them not competing with you.

I'd very much like x264 to be in the AVC realm what XviD is in the ASP realm.. and perhaps by now companies have smartened up to realize that a good free competititor can cut into your business.

[Sirber]

They want the market badly...

[bond]

my cents:

nero started with buying opensource/free software devs a long time ago already, eg when entering the aac encoding market they bought ivan dimkovic, together with his (still freely available) aacenc, which is an early version of the todays nero aac encoder. they also bought menno, who was the original developer of faac (now doesnt work on it anymore of course) and faad (which he still works on)
so it might very well be that nero realised that hiring oss devs is a cheap way of recruiting good people
but it might also very well be a move to harm xvid and x264, which indeed are big competitors to nero

the funny thing is when entering the video market, they hired an external codec producer, ateme, and did not produce it themselves, but after syskin already showed that he is a great dev for years on xvid, suddenly they hired him when he meant to start working on x264, an upcoming competitor to neros new avc codec, on which he will not be allowed to work on anymore of course
also they tried to hire pengvado and ateme did hire fenrir, the original author of x264, who of course now also doesnt work on it anymore

propably its both:
- get rid of nasty and popular opensource competing products by swallowing their devs
- get people, you know to be good thanks to the oss software, for propably relatively not much money (as they are students, unemployed aso...). altough often they than dont work on audio/video codecs at nero/ateme anyways


so if you want to get a job at nero or ateme, start developing x264! nero is aiming high and still has lots of money to give :D

[virus]

Originally posted by Doom9
Put yourself in Nero's position though and things look quite differently. Hey, we have our biggest competitor trying to hire off people regularly. And considering they have a quasi monopoly, they can affort higher salaries, and eventually crushing us by buying projects. It isn't just about people being good, it's also about them not competing with you.
I see you point. But unfortunately, if the big companies want to buy off the medium ones, and the medium ones want to buy off the smaller ones, and both the medium and the smaller ones react by recruiting all OS devs they can find, then the very existence of OS software is threatened, at least in the video coding domain (and probably in many other domains, where a professional career is in sight after you've contributed good code to some OS project).

I may sound pathetic but I still feel the need to speak out about this situation, sorry. Especially because it's the large community of OS software users which will be damaged the more. :(

[Andrey]

Yeah. Nero begin such a politics long ago by hiring I.Dimkovich and M.Bakker. Now they realize that they could achieve two goals with it :(
On the other hand, some people that I respect much can now work on what they like (I hope) and get payed...
Many things have light and dark side merged together. :)
Anyway, it's a huge loss for x264 codec and community...
EDIT:
>>Then, why instead of hiring some talented professionals which can
>>work full-time, they want to recruit a couple of talented students
>>that can only work part-time or for a summer internship?
Heh. I'm a senior system analyst working in the bank. I was bought :) from rather big development company (may be you heard of it: one of the east europe big devs - Exigen). My two programers were taken from them too. Not because I'm evil :cool: , but because I have to complete my projects, but good Domino specialists are VERY hard to find here.
As I understand, situation is similiar in any field: there are huge number of people that know how to write two sentences in a M$ Word, can master one table in M$ Access. But when things going to jdbc, multi-thread applications, data integration (I'm not talking of special things like programming full-text indexes, video encoding or other very narrowed things that require a lot of expirience) and so on you can not find a good specialist, just because any good specialist is empoyed already. So, you have the only option to buy him...

[IgorC]

May be Nero or/and Ateme are developing AVC High Profile that´s why they need more engineers

[Andrey]

>>May be Nero or/and Ateme are developing AVC High Profile
They are, I think, because JohnV or somebody from their team already posted it here.
Also, they developing multi-platform solution (at least linux involved) and AVC for portables...

[Leo 69]

@ IgorC

Ateme did the AVC high profile a big while ago, don't know why they can't insert it in Recode..

[IgorC]

Originally posted by Leo 69
@ IgorC

Ateme did the AVC high profile a big while ago, don't know why they can't insert it in Recode..

If I wasn´t mistaking, it wasn´t a final version. In doom9´s comparing test it says it´s far from any release. Just try to read without losing details.

[superdump]

I wouldn't say it's far from release at all. Ateme's High Profile could probably be released now. I know one member of their group (Nero/Ateme) is pushing for its release. They're probably keeping it back as a 'secret weapon' because they're still ahead of the rest at the moment.

OT: If Snow had good RC it would be a very big contender from my testing.

[DeathTheSheep]

I see. What stage IS x264 in development? I hear that

x264:AVC:now == divx:ASP:v2.0

which means that x264 is where DivX2 was in terms of quality (of course, for the different standards).

Even so, because AVC as a standard is so phenominally good, a 2/6 beats ASP 6/6.

So where would SNOW be? Wavelet 1.0 vs. ASP 6.0? So if it reached the maturity of what 6.0 is to ASP, it would whoop both AVC and ASP? That would truly bite.

But perhaps I'm wrong. I beleive, however, that the developers need to be bought quickly in order to prevent it from reaching the fabled, legendary (likely nonexistent) 100% effeciency, because then it would be too late. Simply get the creators before they can create something that would destroy you. Proper buisness logic, correct?

[superdump]

x264 is indeed doing very well and PSNR-wise has been approaching that of Ateme/Nero's AVC codec. It is not as good visually however and it is a little slower. But their AVC codec contains a number of features which are yet to be implemented in x264 (RDO for one). As you have pointed out, there's still a lot of progress to be made before maturity. :) That's the exciting thing about all this.

Snow is also right up there, as I stated, but that's for another thread.

EDIT: The above has been edited for a misinterpretation.

[Doom9]

@virus: keep in mind how many actively developed open source projects there are, corporate buyouts notwithstanding. Some even manage to make it a business without straying from the open source model (mysql as a prominent example). And Linux is being used widely even in the corporate world.. yet it is still open source. An open source project thrives if there are enough sufficiently motivated people that do not depend solely on the skills they bring to a project to make a living. Most companies oppose that their hired programmers do the same work they do during the day during the night and release it for free..

And the AVC high profile encoder from ateme that I tested really was far from release. I'm not sure I'm at liberty to say where it stands now. Either way, 3 months ago it wasn't such a great thing... most of you would probably not have spotted the difference in a blind test (me included.. knowing which codec you're looking at can be a curse).

[IgorC]

SO next version of Recode2 : revXXX patch by Ateme, Syskin - import x264 rev178 :p

[Teegedeck]

Sad, sad. Well, people gotta make a living, and I cannot say that Menno and Ivan being hired by Ahead kept me from using HE AAC. All these nice words by Ahead are of course really just makebelief, this is business. It is not like they were supporting an open source project or like Nero was free Software that kicks a**, like Firefox or OpenOffice, and Ahead ain't Sun. Smart move, again, Ahead!

So, we are forced to use an encoding application that seriously sucks (Recode) if we want to encode in top-notch h.264? That is a reason for me to postpone any plans for 'migration to AVC' for the foreseeable future... No, this certainly isn't a development to be celebrated, although I'm happy for sysKin as well as for any other nice, talented person who gets the chance to do what he does and likes best and gets an income from it. Good luck!

[Tommy Carrot]

Well, it's a great loss, but Syskin only recently began working on x264, most of the development was done by Akupenguin anyway. What's the deal with him, has he joined to Nero too? If not, then not everything is lost, the development can progress further, maybe with a bit slower pace.

[RadicalEd]

Always a shame to see cash replace community as the source of motivation for creators. On the other hand, good to see sysKin recieve some compensation for his work, outside of pats on the back. I don't know whether to be happy for him or sad for us :|

[IgorC]

is it our deal? Good or bad? It´s only deal of Syskin. So people don´t cry here. Nothing is free and we know it. What are you suppose to do? To work for free .. for fun ... . What´s about family about future of children and other things.

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
Well, it's a great loss, but Syskin only recently began working on x264, most of the development was done by Akupenguin anyway. What's the deal with him, has he joined to Nero too? If not, then not everything is lost, the development can progress further, maybe with a bit slower pace.
On the other hand, should he sign, too, Nero's AVC should 'get ahead' quickly...

[Doom9]

I don't know whether to be happy for him or sad for us :| I think you can be both at the same time.

Gotta ask the guys at ateme what this could mean since they are supposed to deliver the video codec. Until today I thought if anybody was hiring it would be ateme.

[Blue_MiSfit]

So, we are forced to use an encoding application that seriously sucks (Recode) if we want to encode in top-notch h.264? That is a reason for me to postpone any plans for 'migration to AVC' for the foreseeable future... No, this certainly isn't a development to be celebrated, although I'm happy for sysKin as well as for any other nice, talented person who gets the chance to do what he does and likes best and gets an income from it. Good luck!



My sentiments EXACTLY.

We'll miss you sysKin :)

[akupenguin]

Originally posted by pest
and i just don't know where i could be usefull
someone needs 8x8 dct in 3dnow? Eventually.

i have the feeling that the main part of the core is done
and now it's time to optimize the whole thing
and that's what i love It's not done in terms of either features or algorithms, and there's a chance even that the whole macroblock analysis thing will be restructured. But that doesn't mean it can't use optimizing.

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by Blue_MiSfit

We'll miss you sysKin :)
And the Totoro. :)

[dragongodz]

its interesting how open source/freeware has become a real competitor nowdays. so much so that companies look to hire the programmers to both boost their own programs and to slow or kill the competitor. this has been going on for years and not only by nero. so people should not be surprised.

[virus]

Originally posted by Teegedeck Originally posted by Blue_MiSfit

We'll miss you sysKin :)
And the Totoro. :)
Well, guys, let's not make it look like a funeral :D

I hope sysKin will drop a line sometimes. Though admittely I'm still shocked. He announced to be ready to work on x264 just a little time ago and was so enthusiast to work on a new project. I hope he will be happy with his new job too... even though, according to sysKin himself, Nero made him sign a contract (which prevents work on "competing products" -> all ASP and AVC basically, since Nero is on both markets) without even telling him what he's gonna do - feel free to intepret this move as you wish...

Anyway he was working on some promising new ME code and now that won't make into x264 anymore. Also XviD will miss his creative bugs :( That's a little disaster for us, but after 2.5+ years of great patches, we really cannot pretend anything more from him. So let's just say "thanks Radek and good luck" :)

virus

[BoNz1]

Well, what can I say? sysKin has done some amazing work in XviD and also x264. And he will be sorely missed, no doubt. I understand that ateme and nero's business seem a little hard to swallow, like other people have said other good developers should take notice. If you are looking to get a good job at ateme or nero just send some good patches to the x264 mailing list :P. If you write good code, if seems they will have to hire you. Then everyone benefits, I guess.

BTW sysKin, I hope you will still hang out on IRC some. I know you won't be able to tease us with a new 'bug' you invented and we won't be able harrass you to code some new feature but whatever, its all good :).

I would like to learn how to code better myself but I am a full time student and I don't study anything computer science related. Which means when I crack open a book about writing C or assembler I get bored of it really quickly since I have to do so more reading for other courses too. Maybe one day I can get involved too. I have done a lot of math/calculus.

[sysKin]

Originally posted by virus
Originally posted by Teegedeck
Originally posted by Blue_MiSfit
We'll miss you sysKin

And the Totoro.

Well, guys, let's not make it look like a funeral :D

Whoa, my thoughts exactly.

I am not leaving this board, ever ;)

Oh, and it's funny how none of you said that maybe, just maybe, our involvement will turn Recode into the second best thing after sliced bread. After all, don't tell me you only ever used and will use Free software?
Just a thought ;D

Radek

[Axed]

Thats great to hear that you got a job doing what you enjoy (i hope so anyway) sysKin.

I think its good for the programmers who are being picked up by the big corporations after doing such important work in the open source community. Hopefully it will inspire equally skilled people to join the open source community efforts in an attempt to secure themselves jobs at a big corporation doing something they enjoy.

Alot of these projects arent just about 'doing it for the community', i believe they are also for the young guy who noone has ever heard of making an impact and causing people who can actually pay, to look at them, and hopefully give them a job and experience that will last them a lifetime.

[Neo Neko]

Indeed syskin. Indeed.

I think we were all a bit devided on this. Super happy for your good fortune. And very sad that you had to leave the X264 project before you really got going. Not to mention your work on Xvid.

Lets just remember folks Nero has done nothing wrong here. In fact they are after a fashion fostering involvement in opensource even as they remove people from it. Though I think they and others could be doing more. Companies like Nero etc need to do more than just see opensource as a handy hiring pool and possible competition. IBM/Novell have gotten the closest so far. Hiring opensource developers etc to work on their opensource projects. Opensource as competition is such a narrowminded view. Everyone can benefit from opensource. Even these businesses. And some are figuring it out. There are of course downsides. You don't have total controll. And you can't exclude competitors. But it's not as bad as it sounds either. You don't have as much staffing costs etc and some free work force. And with key guiding members of a project on the payroll you have a great degree of controll. I'm not saying that Nero should opensource all their software. Far from it. But it seems a bit needless to hire someone from an opensource project to do possibly duplicate work on a closed source component to be integrated into a much larger software. Especially when the opensource project could have been integrated and used more or less just as well. Business needs to learn to foster opensource more and in a stategic way. That way everyone gets what they want.

[Teegedeck]

My thoughts exactly. :) Also, when Ateme's AVC came out I was quite puzzled that I found that I didn't like using it as soon as it left the 'closed beta testing' stage. And that I didn't enjoy the beta testing as much as testing open source software. So I guess I'll have to stick with testing bleeding edge open source software in order to satisfy my sick desires...

[JohnV]

Originally posted by virus
I've already made my point clear on the subject, just read what I wrote after the sentence you've quoted. I just want to remind that akupenguin and sysKin *aren't* the only two smart programmers on the face of earth with knowledge on video coding. So it's not really "hire those two or you're out of business".

AFAIK Nero is a German firm. And, for example, German universities produce several good graduated coders with experience on video coding, because there's quite a bit of research on this field there. Same applies to nearby France. Yet, they roam to USA and Australia to hire two students. Two talented ones, but not yet professionals.

You see I'm very skeptical about that. I don't want to build a conspiracy theory at all costs, but I see too much coincidences here, especially considering x264's outstanding rise in the last 3 months. Radek has worked for years with XviD for example, but only recently he has joined x264. Same applies to akupenguin, who has been contacted right after becoming the de-facto x264's lead developer and producing several important work on it.

This makes you think.


@Doom9:

"Ateme is their video codec partner and Nero didn't really need anybody working on video codecs. Makes one think, doesn't it?"

Good point :) Well, your conspiracy theory is wrong. I was asked to help look for a few potential developers for us. I don't know any good devs which German universities produce because I work from Finland, but I know people working on xvid and x264 projects from doom9-community, #xvid and #mpeg -IRC channels. I know they are capable devs, they have already proven that they can produce code in real life video projects very nicely, something which often even many graduated coders lack in comparison. So of course I ask people like Radek and Loren, because I know about their work and I see them on IRC and they are talented. Simple as that. If they accept, it's their choice which they are free to do.

[Doom9]

Oh, and it's funny how none of you said that maybe, just maybe, our involvement will turn Recode into the second best thing after sliced breadConsidering its architecture and lockout tendencies I have my doubts. One of the most requested ND features is after all a way to use the codec in alternative tools. Sure, Recode is good for newbies, but in this place, a VfW codec or a public release of encavc would be much more welcome. You of all people know best what happened when the x264 VfW was released and how many people used it before that.

@JohnV: Wouldn't ateme need more coders to finish the high profile codec. I can't quite help but feel a bit puzzled about the need for people who work on a codec's core.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Doom9
@JohnV: Wouldn't ateme need more coders to finish the high profile codec. I can't quite help but feel a bit puzzled about the need for people who work on a codec's core. Ateme makes its own decisions. We have also inhouse video codec's core development like in MPEG2's case. I don't know exactly about our long term plans, and even if I knew, I can't talk about it, but we will have mpeg4 related projects these people are useful for..
And obviously talented people like Radek and Loren are good asset for any company on this area of business.. but it's not my decision who gets hired, and like I said, talented people probably end up discussing with us or someone else, and if both parties think that they can be useful to each others, then a contract is quite likely signed..

[SeeMoreDigital]

So I guess there's no need to have a separate "Mpeg4/AVC/H.264 section" on the forum after-all :(

Cheers

[JohnV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
So I guess there's no need to have a separate "Mpeg4/AVC/H.264 section" on the forum after-all :(

Cheers Take a look at the open source FAAD2 aac decoder project. Did the project die when Menno was hired few years ago, or is it probably the best aac decoder available now..

I just say that it's not Nero's benefit that mass h264 adoption slows down, so I don't think there's much need to worry..

[Tommy Carrot]

I think your analogy is not the most appropriate for this situation, i would rather compare x264 with faac. After Menno left faac project, it almost completely died soon after that, and years later faac is still not a serious player in the audio-coder world.

BTW, the problem is not that the AVC solution of Nero is not free, the problem is Recode. It doesn't matter that Nero has the best codec in the world, if we can only use it in Recode, which is a rather useless piece of software IMO, i'm very reluctant to use it, and there are many people who feel similarly. Hiring more codec-engineers won't solve this problem.

However i'm still curious, what's the deal with Akupenguin?

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
I think your analogy is not the most appropriate for this situation, i would rather compare x264 with faac. After Menno left faac project, it almost completely died soon after that, and faac is still not a serious player in the audio-coder world, years after that. To my knowledge Menno has also contibuted to FAAC after he was hired. All credit to Menno and FAAC, but he really wasn't so much into AAC encoding, he has always been more into decoding. Even inhouse he is working on the aac decoding side, while Ivan Dimkovic and I have been working on the aac encoder.
while we can only use it in Recode, which is a rather useless piece of software IMO, i'm very reluctant to use itWell, this isn't the most specific critique.. There will be something hopefully more handy soon.

[superdump]

Originally posted by Teegedeck
Also, when Ateme's AVC came out I was quite puzzled that I found that I didn't like using it as soon as it left the 'closed beta testing' stage. And that I didn't enjoy the beta testing as much as testing open source software. So I guess I'll have to stick with testing bleeding edge open source software in order to satisfy my sick desires...

I guess Recode is a big project and it will take time to mature. I personally have little problems using it despite what many of you say. It's not that bad a software and I regularly make feature requests for it.

I also thoroughly enjoyed the beta testing phase of Ateme's AVC codec, and would very much like to participate in it again in the future.

I will continue to use Recode too, though I don't generally use it for testing, just for very very fast ASP backups if I can't be bothered to wait for XviD. I don't use AVC in it much yet because when I do use the program it's for backup purposes or simply so I can burn something and watch it downstairs on my TV and I find it quite usable with not too many bugs now. There are certain features which I would like to see though, such as manual DAR/PAR.

My main concern is not with Nero as I quite like their products (though they are getting a bit bulky, maybe an installer with 7z support would help? :)) Is there any more interest from developers on the forum who might wish to contribute to the x264 project?

[Doom9]

I think Recode2 is good for the one clickers and beginners. But adoption of something new starts with the early adopters which are more likely to keep using their known tools. And having NeroDigital available in alternative tools like GKnot/AutoGKnot will not hinder adoption. After all, DXN only added their own encoding application after a while, and there are still many people who rather use their own prefered app rather than DXN's. Anyway, I dare say that as far as this community is concerned, ND AVC adoption would be higher if the codec was available outside of Nero's own tools. And having a choice is always a good thing.. having two competing high quality AVC codecs is too.. it helps all parties stay focused and improve their product rather than rest on their laurels.

[superdump]

Originally posted by JohnV
Well, this isn't the most specific critique.. There will be something hopefully more handy soon.

That's good to know.


Originally posted by Doom9
I think Recode2 is good for the one clickers and beginners. But adoption of something new starts with the early adopters which are more likely to keep using their known tools. And having NeroDigital available in alternative tools like GKnot/AutoGKnot will not hinder adoption. After all, DXN only added their own encoding application after a while, and there are still many people who rather use their own prefered app rather than DXN's. Anyway, I dare say that as far as this community is concerned, ND AVC adoption would be higher if the codec was available outside of Nero's own tools. And having a choice is always a good thing.. having two competing high quality AVC codecs is too.. it helps all parties stay focused and improve their product rather than rest on their laurels.

I don't believe I've ever used DXN's encoding application for anything. I don't think I've even seen it properly. That said I rarely if ever even try DivX because there was a better alternative. Now there are even better alternatives and I agree it would be useful to have access to this via other means, even if its intent is only mainly for this community. I regularly receive requests for knowledge of how to backup video material and I point people in the direction of this site, and I always recommend GKnot/AutoGK. If people could have access to Ateme/Nero AVC within this then there would be direct competition between them and ever other major codec (bar RV I guess) I know of because they all have VFW interfaces.

x264 anyone? *chuckles to himself*

[dragongodz]

it's funny how none of you said that maybe, just maybe, our involvement will turn Recode into the second best thing after sliced bread. After all, don't tell me you only ever used and will use Free software?
wow thats a nice bit of spin isnt it ? :D
it has nothing to do with being free or not as you should know syskin.
trapped in a proprietry application means it doesnt matter how good the quality of the codec is some people will not use it because they prefer the options/usability of another program as Doom9 said.

as i also said earlier its not something new or Nero specific. other companies have been hiring from the open source world aswell. in some cases they hire people from projects that are freeware version(competition ?) of a product they are also doing, sometimes not. as to motive...well only the companies know. all else is speculation. ;)

[obieobieobie]

Good luck, syskin! Make Recode better! :D

[Sharktooth]

Just one thought.
I cant see xvid or x264 as products which can harm the Ahead business coz they cant be used commercially and their binaries cant be distribuited (if not for testing).
So, i cant see the reason why syskin and akupenguin couldnt contribute on those projects anymore after being hired by Ahead.
Do anyone from Ahead care to take those observations into consideration?

[MSlv]

These things should only improve development! People who know coding should now join projects like x264, start improving them and hope to get hired by nero! This could become a test, where the best coder(s) wins a contract!
:D

[virus]

Originally posted by MSlv
This could become a test, where the best coder(s) wins a contract! :D
So sad. Open source was born with very different ideals supporting it.

Originally posted by dragongodz
wow thats a nice bit of spin isnt it ? :D
indeed, sysKin is morphing quite fast :)

Originally posted by Sharktooth
So, i cant see the reason why syskin and akupenguin couldnt contribute on those projects anymore after being hired by Ahead.
it's because Ahead forbids work on competing products (including OS ones), and that of course includes x264.

The official motivation is "we just want to hire some good people". You see? They're not evil, they only do it for finding good programmers, as JohnV just said. They don't want to hurt anyone, just make the programmers happy and improve their products. They just make a job offering, "simple as that", why being so suspicious, they're not targetting x264 in any way...

...that's why they forbid *explicitly* any work on x264 on their contracts. ;)

:devil:
virus

[Doom9]

that's why they forbid *explicitly* any work on x264 on their contracts. I'm afraid it's standard practice to forbid your employees to compete with the company. Normally, developer contracts even go beyond that and forbid you to compete with the company for 2-3 years after you've left the company, or pay a hefty fine. Keep in mind that we're not talking about IBM, Novell, or Redhat that pay people to work on stuff that benefits the company and at the same time the open source community.. that is still a rarity in the software world.

[virus]

Originally posted by Doom9
I'm afraid it's standard practice to forbid your employees to compete with the company.
Here we can discuss whether OS really "competes" or not though. It's not sold nor distributed in a directly usable way, and can be considered "educational software" as well (as XviD states clearly). IANAL so I don't have an answer.

Anyway a few days ago, for example, bobololo sent a patch to x264. It doesn't improve the core, but adds a new functionality nonetheless. So not all companies are so restrictive it seems.

But my point is: trying to look good saying they don't want to harm x264 but just offering a job opportunity is a plain lie imho. As Teegedeck already said "All these nice words by Ahead are of course really just makebelief, this is business". So, let's say it's business. I can understand that, though I still don't like it.

[dragongodz]

I cant see xvid or x264 as products which can harm the Ahead business coz they cant be used commercially and their binaries cant be distribuited (if not for testing).
sorry i have to disagree. say 50,000(a VERY conservative number just used for example) people download and use xvid for their personal use. now a company has an mpeg4 ASP codec(standalone or part of an application) which they are selling for say $20. thats a potential $1,000,000 worth of sales loss. so when or how much do you think it would take for a company to be interesting in those potentially lost sales, especially smaller to mid size companies ?

[superdump]

Originally posted by virus
Anyway a few days ago, for example, bobololo sent a patch to x264. It doesn't improve the core, but adds a new functionality nonetheless. So not all companies are so restrictive it seems.

That's a VERY good point. sysKin may not even be working directly on the AVC encoder, whereas bobo is. If bobo can commit a patch for x264 then maybe why not sysKin?

dragongodz: I agree with you on that point. I was thinking similar. Every person using a freeware OS codec is a person not using a payware codec. :)

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Doom9
I'm afraid it's standard practice to forbid your employees to compete with the company. Normally, developer contracts even go beyond that and forbid you to compete with the company for 2-3 years after you've left the company, or pay a hefty fine. Keep in mind that we're not talking about IBM, Novell, or Redhat that pay people to work on stuff that benefits the company and at the same time the open source community.. that is still a rarity in the software world. Exactly. I don't know the details of the contract, but something like this is standard practise.
It's interesting if virus knows that in the contract it reads that we forbid *explicitly* any work on x264. Even I don't know this, but then again I didn't even know that Radek has signed yet, until yesterday from guys on #mpeg..

But virus is wrong if he thinks we have somekind of tactics which targets on killing x264. I think I've been personally much more concerned about x264 than Nero management... Open source x264 definitely isn't our biggest competition on business level. From the management there hasn't definitely come any "we must stop x264 by hiring the devs" attitude at all.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi JohnV,

Now that Recode2's functionality is growing and getting more complex, I don't suppose you could tell us whether Ahead's ultimate intension will be to promote and sell Recode2 as a separate product?


Cheers

[rushin_911]

I'm with virus in that Nero does seem to hire the developers of competing projects (free software, to be a bit more specific) so as to be the dominant name in the field of video/audio coding, as actions speak louder than words :)

It is unfortunate that syskin has to leave the x264 project... I believe all the community appreciates the work you have done. Good luck :)

[JohnV]

Ok, I got a comment from higher management, because these "theories" seem to get out of hand. And anyway, it was me who contacted sysKin, so if I am personally the "big evil corporate" then so be it.. :rolleyes:

"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are. So we welcome (and hope) that projects such as .x264 and Xvid can continue to expand. Where possible, we'll support them as we do with FAAD2"

I don't know what it says exactly in Radek's contract, but I was said it depends on the case if he can contribute, which would point that contributing on x264 is not totally forbidden like virus claims. Even more it was specifically said by our Executive Director that open source communities are not our competitors.

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

misc personnal comments:

*Many people contributing to A/V open source projects are not doing it because of an quest for an Open Source ideal world. They are working on those projects because they like learning, searching, and have there a good opportunity to learn more while doing something quite interesting.

*It is not because someone contributed to an open source project that he should need to have a job that consist of selling flowers or working at the postal service. Why should contribution to any open source project prevent someone to have a job in the software industry?

*Contributing to open source projects provides some "exposure", so it is natural that a company searching for someone is more likely to consider those people.

*People are not forced to sign contracts. It is soly their own choice.

*Why is a contract between an individual and his company subject to discussions here?

[virus]

what I know is what sysKin said on IRC (the logs are available). I'm not inventing anything nor making false claims. He started saying "no more x264 for me". He said he has a contract that only allows him to work on "non-competing free projects". Seems pretty obvious to me that this excludes x264 and XviD if you consider them "competitors" of Nero's ASP and AVC codecs.

I doubt Nero's management is so happy with sysKin sending code to x264 (read what's written above: "we welcome that x264 and Xvid can continue to expand" - no mention about *who* should actually contributing the code). So unless proven the contrary, I think sysKin can't send code to x264 anymore (the word "forbidden" is appropriate in this case or am I making false claims?).

Also, since sysKin has staten that openly on a public channel and said explicitly that these things could have been discussed openly here, I see no problem in making a point. I also don't see why *I* should be the one who's lying to avoid people's bad reactions against his company... ;)

[JohnV]

Originally posted by virus
Also, since sysKin has staten that openly on a public channel and said explicitly that these things could have been discussed openly here, I see no problem in making a point. I also don't see why *I* should be the one who's lying to avoid people's bad reaction against his company... ;) You can think what you want, but the truth is that the initiative to contact sysKin came from me and I contacted him.
Now I hear all these Nero=Microsoft things on IRC and other unbelievable claims, which couldn't be further from the truth, just because I contacted people I know are good.
And nodoby forces Radek or anybody to sign a contract anyway. If he chooses, he could work anywhere and use all his programming time to xvid or x264. It is in the end his own personal choice. He is just offered an opportunity because he is good. It's his choice to take it or leave it.

[JohnV]

And now I see rediculous articles appearing. :rolleyes:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/57722

Nice to see that Nero gets the honour of hiring Fenrir too, although in reality he was hired by Ateme, but who cares about the truth anyway.. :rolleyes:
Thanks koepi for this very interesting and accurate article.. :D

[virus]

Originally posted by JohnV
Now I hear all these Nero=Microsoft things on IRC and other unbelievable claims, which couldn't be further from the truth, just because I contacted people I know are good.
not to mention your claims about Richard Stallman being "really stupid" and other nastiness about open sourced software (and their users who "wants all for free" in this "global economy") you made there on IRC. Better not to talk about it. You didn't show too much knowledge about Stallman's ideas either. As I said, if I were an op, I'd have kicked you in a minute.

And so to avoid ppl badmouthing your company you've parked your client on #x264 and now you keep lecturing everybody there about how open source "zealots" are stupid. Go on, go on freely. You're really showing your respect for x264 and its users.

And nodoby forces Radek or anybody to sign a contract anyway.
Nobody has spoken a single bad word against sysKin in this whole thread.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by virus
not to mention your claims about Richard Stallman being "really stupid" and other nastiness about open sourced software (and their users who "wants all for free" in this "global economy") you made there on IRC. Better not to talk about it. You didn't show too much knowledge about Stallman's ideas either. As I said, if I were an op, I'd have kicked you in a minute.
Yeah right.. It is useless to try to make me an enemy of open source because I am not.

[17:28] <algern0n> JohnVI: then, Richard Stallman is really stupid :)
[17:28] <JohnVI> if he thinks everything should be free, yes

I think the emphasis in my opinion here is *everything*. I definitely like many open source software, and open source is good thing to have. I also said that why would I contact these people if I'd think open source software is crap. It is exactly the opposite, because otherwise I wouldn't have even contacted them of course. Anyway, my interest was in getting good people, I don't have strong opinions about open source software idealism. I saw it only from practical point of view when I looked for good people.

And so to avoid ppl badmouthing your company you've parked your client on #x264 and now you keep lecturing everybody there about how open source "zealots" are stupid. Go on, go on freely. You're really showing your respect for x264 and its users.I've said that the behaviour of certain individuals is stupid and childish, and very possessive regarding their favorite project. Mostly because I hear claims that I am a liar and Nero=Microsoft etc. by these certain individuals.
The only "sin" I admit, is that I contacted sysKin, but sooner or later someone else would have contacted him anyway. Such is life..

[superdump]

JohnV, virus: I stated at the start of this thread that I did not want this to degenerate into a flame war. If you wish to do so, please do so not within this thread else I will have to request that it be closed to avoid further conflict. Your arguments are straying from the original topic and I request that you return to them or refrain from posting. Please resolve this between yourselves.

For the record the complete quote (to avoid misinterpretation) above should be:

<JohnVI> and it's really stupid to think that everything should be free, Jarod. People has to get bread..
<algern0n> and you can't deny it <--- This line is a continuation of another message and should be ignored as it is out of context.
<JohnVI> we are not living in USSR, it's a global economy nowadays.
<algern0n> JohnVI: then, Richard Stallman is really stupid :)
<JohnVI> if he thinks everything should be free, yes

[Koepi]

Originally posted by JohnV
And now I see rediculous articles appearing. :rolleyes:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/57722

Nice to see that Nero gets the honour of hiring Fenrir too, although in reality he was hired by Ateme, but who cares about the truth anyway.. :rolleyes:
Thanks koepi for this very interesting and accurate article.. :D

Shooting the messenger, aren't you? (Why is it that you always complain about something that comes from me?)

If you really read the article (and not what you _want_ to read from it) you won't see anything against you or ateme or anything. Just a notice about the process of nero hiring new OSS people. Nothing about you, nero or ateme being evil. No evaluations at all involved.

I can only speak for myself, but as it's sad that both sysKin and pengvado are no longer working on x264, it's good on the other hand that they can code for a living now. They deserve to get good money for good work.

Calm down, don't get setup because some people don't want the persons who gave them their beloved tools for free now finally earn some money too.

I wish sysKin and pengvado good luck and much fun at nero.

Cheers
Koepi

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Koepi
Shooting the messenger, aren't you? (Why is it that you always complain about something that comes from me?) Umm ok, but where did you get the false message that Fenrir was hired by Nero..?
Be a better messenger, so I don't have to complain.. ;)

[DeathTheSheep]

I wish sysKin and pengvado good luck and much fun at nero.

And I do as well. My regards :cool:

[Koepi]

There I didn't research enough, true. But then - is ateme working for someone else than nero? ;)

In the end it's Fenrir's work which ends up in nero recode, that's what counts.

Let's stop this off topic now please.

Regards
Koepi

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Koepi
There I didn't research enough, true. But then - is ateme working for someone else than nero? ;)
Yes, Ateme definitely is not working only on Nero Digital. Check their webpage for more information.
Let's stop this off topic now please.I agree. Sorry if I was a bit agressive towards you, but I have been pushed to a bit defensive in many places today..

[Neo Neko]

Folks lets keep things civil here. We all love syskin and will miss his work quite a bit. But you heard it from the horses mouth he is not going to leave the community he said. This is not a funeral. He just may not have the time or ability to lend as much effort to opensource projects for a while.

Second Nero is not the bad guy here. And neither is JohnV. Please refrain from attacking either of them. They don't deserve it. I can't say for nero but I know John V is a stand up guy. A very inteligent person. And generally a pretty all around good guy.

@Virus
If what John V quoted is what you are getting upset about I don't see the issue. He said "if" RMS thought all software should be free, then he would be stupid. I gather this was said in a discussion where someone was getting a bit zealotous about opensource and how everything should be free. Which would be why he worded it the way he did. I think the comment was meant with alot of sarcasm in this case. Because I know and I am rather sure John V knows that RMS could be quoted saying just the opposite. RMS is most definatly a quirky man(but then aren't alot of geniuses) and for himself he refuses to use allot of non-opensource software. But he does not advocate that everything should be free. Just that whenever possible there should be free alternatives to help foster competition and fairness more or less. That companies like AT&T or Microsoft should not be allowed to hold an industry hostatge to their whims.

[defunkt]

Originally posted by JohnV
It is useless to try to make me an enemy of open source because I am not.

I don't find that such a stretch. You yourself said you were more concerned about x264 as a competitor than Nero management. Or possibly you've just been used, if Nero did ask you to find a couple of coders (a less than typical recruitment practice), where did they think you were likely to find them?

Anyway, good luck to syskin and pengvado.

Still plenty of talent around, hopefully some of it will turn its attention to x264 soon. I hear it can get you hired by Nero.

[virus]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
I gather this was said in a discussion where someone was getting a bit zealotous about opensource and how everything should be free.
nah, not really. But I imagine that between a nobody like me and a Nero engineer you trust him and not me, because he's "more important" than me. I've just quoted sysKin's words on IRC and made my point about it (it's all written very clearly) and nobody still has proved that virus'/sysKin's words about forbidding work on x264 were wrong. Yet I (and sysKin, since he's my source of info) get accused of "false claimings".

That's pretty much all I have to say. Unfortunately I don't seem to get any consideration here. If virus makes a remark against Firefox, then virus is the moron who insults open source, if virus defends x264 against ridiculous claims, then virus is the evil open source zealot, if virus points out that x264 is at risk of dying, then virus is the moron who don't want sysKin to get money. And so on.

That's sad and disappointing on a personal plane. People don't even read what I write. Ok, I know I'm a moron, but I'd like you not reminding me every time :D

This certainly is not a motivation for me to try and support x264 to the best of my (very limited) possibilities. Off of this thread now. I need fresh air :)

[video]

It's very hard to add anything more to the discussion. Okay we have lost our core xvid/x264 develpoers. I was read argumentations here that Ahead did it, to kill xvid and x264. I'm working for a big sw company, so believe me, Ahead don't even thought about xvid and x264. What they did, is nothing else, but a way towards in the evolution from a company developed a good cd writer software to a media technology vendor. 'twas not about killing x264/xvid 'twas about collect taleneted profeesionals to win the fight against Micro$oft's Windows Media. It's about the question, the future whether next gerenation media players at your homes will have the icon 'nero digital' or 'windows media' painted on. We have heared that in 2006 BSkyB will start up HDTV on DVB basis. We know, that transport will be mpeg2... and video coding will be h.264... but what i've heared in this week? I heared that, Mr Rupert's BSkyB started thinking on what if... if... they choose Micro$oft's VC-1?
So? Bottom line: fraunhoffer/thomson/ateme/nero have to do some really mature coming out with this mpeg4 thingy or the battle has lost. mpeg4 with asp and avc either will die...
You may say that I'm an idiot. nope. The main use of mpeg4 videos today is internet file sharing - but what will happen if... if canal+, paramount, fox, miramax, columbia-tristar follows apple's way and offer their libraries as video on demand? Today most of us have 1.5Mbps downlink. Pay just 50 cents for a movie and i feel almost nobody will struggle with capturing/ripping and filesharing movies and tv shows. A good question is, that it will be mpeg4 or will be windows media as Hungary's greatest ISP (axelero) does it since september of 2004...
I feel this thing is far beyond and over us...

[JohnV]

Originally posted by defunkt
I don't find that such a stretch. You yourself said you were more concerned about x264 as a competitor than Nero management. Or possibly you've just been used, if Nero did ask you to find a couple of coders (a less than typical recruitment practice), where did they think you were likely to find them? I have a great respect towards these open source projects like xvid and x264 and their developers.
But anyway, my motive was not to attack x264. My motive was to find good people, and it just happens that these good people I easily found from the projects in question.
Video coding is such a hot thing, that I'm sure there will be more talented people working on x264 and xvid, and yes, I'm pretty sure if they are good, at some point they are hired by the industry, but not against their wish of course. It is natural development like it or not.

I'm sure x264 will become a very high quality codec like xvid.
Of course I understand that it is irritating for some people that I probably personally influence on slowing down of x264 development a bit by contacting Radek and Loren. But this is not the end of x264, because if anything, at least coders see what can follow if they contribute to these projects. And eventually again, if they are good and they want it, they will be hired by someone and the cycle continues.

[video]

Originally posted by JohnV
I have a great respect towards these open source projects like xvid and x264 and their developers.
But anyway, my motive was not to attack x264. My motive was to find good people, and it just happens that these good people I easily found from the projects in question.
Video coding is such a hot thing, that I'm sure there will be more talented people working on x264 and xvid, and yes, I'm pretty sure if they are good, at some point they are hired by the industry, but not against their wish of course. It is natural development like it or not.


Oh c'mon you don't need to excuse yourself hundred times :D You have done the so called 'barin-darin'for benefiting your company, what does the USA exacly in the same way in case of leading scinetist and engineers.

ps: what about 8dB softness of the audio encoded by nero digital?

[JohnV]

Originally posted by video
ps: what about 8dB softness of the audio encoded by nero digital? It's a problem in ac3 processing, not audio encoding exactly (there's no problem in AAC encoder). Someone else is working on it, but slower than I'd like..

[Andrey]

>>BTW, the problem is not that the AVC solution of Nero is not free,
>>the problem is Recode.
100% agreed. :p

>>I'm sure x264 will become a very high quality codec like xvid.
I hope so.
But will see. I will try to set a reminder to 6 - 9 months to remeber this thread to you, JohnV. Would be interesting to check, if force is with you <enought to see the future> :) :)
Good luck to sysKin. BTW, I liked his avatar very much :cool:

[defunkt]

How active are the developers other than pengvado?

I'm sure there are people here who'd could make a great job of lead developer. Could be all they need is a vote of confidence and the promise of a little administrative support. Manao?

Is the project's current home at videolan really serving it well? How would it go based here at doom9?

What would it take to make the project more approachable for developers. I code, and count myself fairly useful at it but I know I don't have the time to build up a cohesive view of the process by poring over the entire source code or densely written standards.

[Sirber]

videolan SVN is really fast and stable. They are doing a great job for it.

[BoNz1]

Originally posted by defunkt
How active are the developers other than pengvado?

I'm sure there are people here who'd could make a great job of lead developer. Could be all they need is a vote of confidence and the promise of a little administrative support. Manao?

There are some other developers that make some small contributions now and then but really pengvado is the only active one ATM. Manao works for ateme so although we all know he is capable of doing it, I don't think he can because of his contract. BTW Manao, since you are here. I know that there is some useful assembler stuff from mvtools that I think might be useful in x264 like some of the SAD functions. Could this be used in x264?

People also forget that even if guys like sysKin and pengvado *could* still work on x264 they might not have time. Do you think you could work part time and go to school full time and then come home and do practically the same thing you do at work? I wouldn't want to. So the whole thing about whether they can or cannot work on x264 is sort of a mute point IMO. That is unless, they just love it sooo much they want to spend their every waking moment on it.


Is the project's current home at videolan really serving it well? How would it go based here at doom9?


BTW I think videolan is a fine home for x264.

[RadicalEd]

I get it. Nero is just beefing up its codec team to survive the release of QT7 in a month :D

Edit: btw, I posted a fixed Visual Studio workspace on the ML this morning, dunno if it's been included yet. Now VC users have no excuse not to start developing :P

[dragongodz]

JohnV wrote -
"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are.
sorry but that is either total B.S. or your upper management is not real bright. :)
if a company is not interested in loss of sales that could easily be in the millions of dollars one has to question exactly how they run their business. look at nero digital for hardware players for example, it needs consumers to buy the software so that hardware manufacturers can be shown they will potentially gain more sales by supporting/licensing it.
so please do not say open source/freeware is not a competitor to Neros business since anything that takes away sales actually IS.

as for programmers not being allowed to work on competeing software... well as Doom9 said thats pretty standard practice. nothing sinister or surprising about that.

It is useless to try to make me an enemy of open source because I am not.
i for one dont believe you are an enemy of open source. i do believe though you want Neros products to succeed and sell better than competitors, and that includes open source and/or freeware. thats business afterall. again nothing surprising.

[video]

dragongodz I feel you are wrong. If you would like do some business with either xvid or x264, would like incorporate it to any product of you, even if you follow the terms of (L)GPL you are in immediate trouble with MPEGLA. If we talk about business terms xvid or x264 are violating patents of the mighty guys at MPEG...

[Maximillius]

Originally posted by video
If you would like do some business with either xvid or x264, would like incorporate it to any product of you, even if you follow the terms of (L)GPL you are in immediate trouble with MPEGLA.

Well anyone who would use these for commercial purposes hopefully would be smart enough to buy all the proper licenses from the MPEGLA for their use. Otherwise they deserve any legal action taken against them for being that stupid.

[IgorC]

will be there a new daily build of x264? Last rev178 has 4 days old. :(

[dragongodz]

dragongodz I feel you are wrong. If you would like do some business with either xvid or x264, would like incorporate it to any product of you
i think you have misunderstood. :)
the first part to understand is loss of sales. if a person can download or compile xvid for free(which is allowed to a certain extent by the MPEGLA) and use it for their own personnal use then they may not be inclined to buy a payware product of the same nature. so this is a potential sales loss to the payware product. we are talking consumer product here.
second part is support for such alternative versions. look at xvid again for a fine example. notice how many of the modern dvd/hardware players that are divx certified are also capable of playing xvid ? the consumer does not need to worry about it as its up to the hardware manufacturers to handle licensing for the players.

so to say a product or program is not competition because its not released by another company etc is fallacious. again i say any product/program that can cause a potential sales loss is competition.

[Maximillius]

Originally posted by dragongodz
the first part to understand is loss of sales. if a person can download or compile xvid for free(which is allowed to a certain extent by the MPEGLA) and use it for their own personnal use then they may not be inclined to buy a payware product of the same nature. so this is a potential sales loss to the payware product. we are talking consumer product here.

Except for the average consumer this probably wouldn't be true at all. They are probably more willing to use something they can purchase easily in a store then having to scour the internet to first find a compiled version of the codec and then an encoding application, then on top of that find a help guide. Since Nero is the codec and encoder in one and is easy to use, for the average consumer this would be the better choice for them.

Originally posted by dragongodz
second part is support for such alternative versions. look at xvid again for a fine example. notice how many of the modern dvd/hardware players that are divx certified are also capable of playing xvid ? the consumer does not need to worry about it as its up to the hardware manufacturers to handle licensing for the players.

Yeah and they can play any files encoded with any mpeg-4 complaint codec. So what's your point?

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by Doom9

One of the most requested ND features is after all a way to use the codec in alternative tools. Sure, Recode is good for newbies, but in this place, a VfW codec or a public release of encavc would be much more welcome...
Originally posted by Tommy Carrot

BTW, the problem is not that the AVC solution of Nero is not free, the problem is Recode. It doesn't matter that Nero has the best codec in the world, if we can only use it in Recode, which is a rather useless piece of software IMO, i'm very reluctant to use it, and there are many people who feel similarly...

Same opinion !!!

Me would like to see this stuff here...


- EncASP (CLI for the ASP encoder)

- EncAVC (CLI for the AVC encoder)

- EncAAC (CLI for the AAC encoder)

- MP4Tool (GUI for MP4 editing etc.)


Bye

[dragongodz]

Except for the average consumer this probably wouldn't be true at all.
of course the average joe on the street who knows nothing is more likly to buy the consumer product than do research for an alternative. to think that there is not a large enough amount of people who do know of things such as xvid is wrong though. i can go on a multitude of forums, some video based, some dvd players based etc. and find talk of using xvid aplenty. so again i am talking about potential loss of millions of dollars in sales. this doesnt magically mean there are no sales for the commercial product of course, but to think a company would not like those using alternative software to be sales of their product instead is to not understand business at all. notice how some manufaturers are even advertising xvid playback support, now i wonder why if there is not a large amount of knowledge out there. :sly:

Yeah and they can play any files encoded with any mpeg-4 complaint codec. So what's your point?
my point was video's statement that programs such as xvid etc can not be used or supported in business when infact it already is for hardware players(supported use/playback that is). i thought that was pretty obvious.
of course the post video responded to was not even about hardware or commercial use by companies of free versions of programs. since he tried to use that as some sort of reason to discredit open source/freeware programs as competition i had to respond to that aswell.

infact i think i have stated things clearly enough already. if someone doesnt want to understand then thats their problem and i wont bother arguing the point further.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by virus
nah, not really. But I imagine that between a nobody like me and a Nero engineer you trust him and not me, because he's "more important" than me.

This has nothing to do with John working for Nero. I know John from well before he began working at Nero. In fact I have not had much recent contact with him since sometime before he began working at Nero. Nero has nothing to do with it. Even if he worked for the evil Microsoft I would still say the same for John. He is who he is regardless who he works for.

And I have yet to hear what Nero has done to deserve such unsavory accusation either. If I remember correctly they have begun developing for Linux. How can a company that develops for Linux as Nero does be seen at toally against opensource when they lend opensource their reputation? I would like to see them give more back to the opensource community. But they are by no means an OSS parasite. They release burning software for Linux but all people can say is "feh it's not free!" or "they are bad people for removing a feature from the linux version that was in the windows one."(Even if the feature was never there in the Linux one to begin with) and last but not least "it looks like X so they must be stealing code from X.". If Nero does something bad I will have no problem calling them on it. And I don't begrudge people to be curious etc about such things. But all this baseless acusation is getting out of hand. In fact I think that anyone doing so without making any valid points or evidence is asking for a striking from here on out. And I rarely strike people.

Originally posted by virus
and nobody still has proved that virus'/sysKin's words about forbidding work on x264 were wrong. Yet I (and sysKin, since he's my source of info) get accused of "false claimings".

No one is claming syskin is lying. I am quite sure the contract will put some definate restrictions on what he can contribute. And untill that has been fully clarified he will have to refrain for a while. It isn't the end of the world.

Originally posted by virus
That's pretty much all I have to say. Unfortunately I don't seem to get any consideration here. If virus makes a remark against Firefox, then virus is the moron who insults open source, if virus defends x264 against ridiculous claims, then virus is the evil open source zealot, if virus points out that x264 is at risk of dying, then virus is the moron who don't want sysKin to get money. And so on.

If X264 didn't die the first time it lost it's lead(basically only developer) what makes you think that it is in so much more danger of dying this time? Especially seeing as it has come so far and still actually has it's current lead developer? We were all excited with the pace of the progress increasing with syskin joining. But lets not treat akupengiun like chopped liver here. It is his work that has largely gotten us to where we are. And I have no doubt he can continue to do so as long as he finds it rewarding. And I don't think such pettyness is very rewarding to anyone.

X264 has reached critical mass. It is not going to end any time soon. More and more people are beginning to use it. Which includes developers. Developers who will add what they can when they can. It is truly impressive work. And it is almost a bit insulting that you think it could end so easily. ;)

Originally posted by virus
This certainly is not a motivation for me to try and support x264 to the best of my (very limited) possibilities. Off of this thread now. I need fresh air :)

Don't condem someone for being an optimist and we will not condem you for being a pessimist.

At any rate enough of this. As superdump initially intended this and as he has repeatedly stated this thread is to wish syskin well and try and motivate others to lend their tallents. Anyone who continues on with the "Nero conspiracy" in this thread will be risking a strike. I think it is wholly off topic and very counter-productive.

Less self pitty. More congratulations and self motivation. If you think you have something to offer do so! Perhaps you might be the next Syskin? Salute. ;)

[MSlv]

Well of course sysKin could be forbidded to work on x264. Afterall, he could (in theory only, just a innocent example) use code from Ateme's AVC or ASP codec to improve XviD or x264, right?
Just a clueless n00b's opinion.

[Doom9]

Afterall, he could (in theory only, just a innocent example) use code from Ateme's AVC or ASP codec to improve XviD or x264, right?That's not an innocent example.. that would be copyright infringement and be grounds to be fired.

Plus, we don't even know if Nero has access to all the sources.. after all the codec is ateme's.

[shlezman]

Iooking at the whole picture, I think that it's only natural and free-market normal behavior to seduce good engineers for ones firm.

After all it serves all sides, these young engineers are getting some experience that cannot be learned anywhere in the OS world and will produce even better software that anyone can enjoy (for 20$ or so).

Nero is capable of contributing much to the community (and to itself) by pushing new and better software into the market, and we will all benefit eventually, if not directly then by getting more competition and more products in this field.

The world is full of talented engineers and students that can fill in for anyone. The x264 project enjoyed great advance in the past months and I'm sure that it will continue, new blood is always good. There is no need to get bitter over such incidents, It is not as bad as some may think it is.

Another enforcement to JonnyV, If I could recruit these guys myself I defiantly would.

[niv]

I saw the post on the 18 but didn't dig the title.
Originally posted by Doom9
... And contracts that forbid you to do certain things are not unheard of. I'm not allowed to write certain kind of software for the next 2 or 3 years as well because of a previous engagement.

It depends on where you live here in Israel for example a labor court ruled that a contract clause forbidin you to work on some subject in the future are illegal. The court accepted that ppl are allowed to make a living the best way they now how. ovcourse if the company took out a patent- the patent is safe, but the human knowledge is NOT the property of a company...

[napalm]

Why can' we hire these talented guys, or future examples back to the OS world? I wonder how much Ahead is paying, and whether it is not possible to compete with a PayPal Donate button?

A crucial issue for OS to truly flourish in all areas is remuneration. This even goes for amateur music and film scenes too. There is a gigantic force out there that is tending to getting rid of the corporate way of production (at least in the "soft" media world. Some believe it's a revolution.

(which is my and many ppl's "ideal". and since when are ideals bad? It's the only thing that has ever gotten us anywhere)

[CruNcher]

Folks lets keep things civil here. We all love syskin and will miss his work quite a bit. But you heard it from the horses mouth he is not going to leave the community he said. This is not a funeral. He just may not have the time or ability to lend as much effort to opensource projects for a while.

At least not as Syskin ;)

@Bonzi
As others allready stated it isn't even allowed to work for about 2 years after leaving the company on any other project so it would be dumb if it isn't also clearly written in the contract that free time work on other similiar projects isn't allowed too.
This would be something i never would sign or sign with anger i wouldn't let companies dictate my free time away from work. This is killing individuality but it's happening more often today, in our capitalistic world, we are morphing into a only result based good.
Projects like XviD and X264 let companies that are based on end consumer products lose money and Neros Main Productline is based on it,why do you think every Mpeg-4 part2 Standalone Player today has a XviD logo on it and advertises with XviD compatibility don't you think Nero or DivX Networks would be happier when only their logo would be on it?
Also the Linux move recently by Nero for Nero Burning Rom is strategy more then let us being nice else they would give it away without a Nero Reloaded license required, they just fear free OpenSource programms like k3b/cdrecord because they get more and more into peoples minds.
They fear to lose their Jobs because of that, but would it really be bad if that would happen?
I would see OpenSource projects as a threat for big ones especialy in the end consumer world NeroDigital's Productline is settled in.

Sorry to say that, i hope people will forgive me but i can't really say that i'm happy for Syskin i mean in one way i'm but in another i'm not.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by napalm
Why can' we hire these talented guys, or future examples back to the OS world? I wonder how much Ahead is paying, and whether it is not possible to compete with a PayPal Donate button?

Technically we can and have. Anyone heard of the Mozilla group? That will not work for us though. Unless someone here is a closet millionare. But it is entirely possible that if enough of us got together and made donations that we could finacially support a few full time coders for a project. X264 foundation anyone?

Originally posted by napalm
A crucial issue for OS to truly flourish in all areas is remuneration.

Then we have our bases covered. OSS gives experience to those who might have otherwise not been hired for lack of experience. Plus it offers the gratification of using your skills to create something everyone can enjoy. Which often leads to respect and admiration from others. The only thing technically missing would be something like financiall support. But that is not absolutely necessary. Coders code for the fun of it. Just as other artists practice their art for the sake of their art. Financial support does make parts of the process much easier though. :p But it is not absolutely necessary.

[BoNz1]

Originally posted by CruNcher


@Bonzi
As others allready stated it isn't even allowed to work for about 2 years after leaving the company on any other project so it would be dumb if it isn't also clearly written in the contract that free time work on other similiar projects isn't allowed too.



CruNcher, first of all when I said if they were allowed to work on a their spare time I was being completely hypothetical. I realize that they cannot work on XviD or x264.

Anyway, it is complete bullshit to have something in a contract that says you cannot work for a competing company for 2 years after working on a project. You don't have to sign such bullshit. But, I realize that companies like Nero want people to sign these sort of contracts. These sort of contracts are the norm in the field I work in as well. But frankly, at least, in my opinion these clauses violate just about every labour law I can think of. At least where I come from, when you leave the job, you can ask to have this clause removed. And there is nothing the company can do about it. Your contract _does_ not extend past the time of your employment.

[bond]

Originally posted by JohnV
"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are. So we welcome (and hope) that projects such as .x264 and Xvid can continue to expand. Where possible, we'll support them as we do with FAAD2"ok, these are nice words, but the only thing that counts is whether syskin will be allowed to continue working on xvid and x264 regularily?

yes or no?

[JohnV]

Originally posted by bond
ok, these are nice words, but the only thing that counts is whether syskin will be allowed to continue working on xvid and x264 regularily?

yes or no? I don't know, depends on case. Maybe something similar contributions as bobololo has made for x264.
But of course it is problematic and not likely that if he has access to inhouse sources, that he could continue totally as before.

[bond]

so that sounds like a "no" for me :p ;)

[JohnV]

Originally posted by bond
so that sounds like a "no" for me :p ;) It is most probably "no" if you mean that he could continue exactly as before while having possibly access to commercial source and methods.
What do you expect? But some contributions similar to bobololo's to x264 shouldn't be totally out of question.

[hpn]

Nobody is irreplaceable. Absolutely nobody. Just wait and see. I'm sure other really good programmers will be tempted by the cult status and the love of the community that working on such essential tool like a free AVCodec guarantees.

Good luck to sysKin and akupenguin. The guys really deserve some reward for their hard work and skills.

[celtic_druid]

Well look at daemon-tools. If I recall correctly Ahead paid them to write Nero's virtual drive and they were allowed to continue developing their own, just no .nrg support.

[JohnV]

*sigh* at Doom9's speculative tabloid journalism on the front page. :rolleyes:
Nero Digital is a co-op of 2 companies, Nero and Ateme. I have not heard anything which would indicate that something would change here, and I really don't think it would be even very simple due to contracts, so this "Considering that ateme has developed the MPEG-4 video codecs for Nero so far..." etc gives weird impression to me.
Funny how speculations start flying when known names are in question..

I wish somebody would just close this thread already.. There's been enough speculations. I'm sure we can share some real information for the community after some time.

[snacky]

Originally posted by hpn
Good luck to sysKin and akupenguin. The guys really deserve some reward for their hard work and skills.

Agree totally. sysKin's work isn't familiar to me, but Akupenguin's work has been a huge gift to the OSS community that IMHO didn't always get the amount of recognition it probably should have.

If nothing else, it's good to see someone get noticed, recognized, and rewarded for his talent. I should also add that Akupenguin is extraordinarily patient and informative in answering user questions, both here and elsewhere.

[Bluedan]

To focus back on x264 future:
On one point the info given here so far remains too vague apart from syskins role: DID akupenguin sign a contract or NOT.
And in case of 'YES' is it restrictive as Syskins' is said to be, which I assume?
If this was the case x264 developpment would really suffer a significant slowdown until skilful individuals join in instead.
So, for consideration of x264 "survival" this seems to be the main issue ATM.

[SirCanealot]

I just wanted to state my 2 cents...

I think it's possible that Nero/Ateme just wants to add talented coders to their team...
I think it's equally possible they want to trash XVid and x264 to futher their own codec...
I also think it's equally possible that Nero have hired sysKin to develop a secret codec-based weapon capable of... DESTROYING TEH INTERWEB BY COMPRESSING IT ONTO A FLOPPY DISK... THEN STAMPING ON THE FLOPPY DISK, LOL, OMG, OH N0S, LOL, ZOMG.

See where I'm going? ^^

I have to agree that speculation is pretty much pointless, unless you're just doing it for fun. There's no cold facts here, and really... who cares?
I wish both of them success in their careers. While I admit I was disapointed when I read at first, I'm happy for them now. As several people have said: they were offered the chance to do what they enjoy in their part time on a pay cheuque. Considering the expenses involved in being a student for many, turning this down could have been silly :P
I just hope it's a big, fat cheque with lots of Zeros on :D

And as other have cited, it's not like this will be the end for a big movement like x264. There will be other coders I'm sure. While I feel that x264 development MAY be harmed by this for a while, I consider it a good thing if such skilled coders are working in video compression but with a pay cheque as motivation :P

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Take it how you will ^^

[RadicalEd]

ZOOMJ NOT DESTROY MY INTERSPACE111 D: D: D:

[lithoc]

Just my 2 cent point of view.
Sorry for my bad english.

I think those company is playing a very high risk or smart game over here.

For example, XVID & X264 is a open source software and as syskin and other have left but the source still remain open.

With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software. Will anyone find out?

This is the weak point of open source, where anyone can copy their source and modify/improvise their code and become proprietary code.

It's not fair for some small project with big potential.
Would the company is force to release their source code if get caught or face any legal case?

Would the author of the project manage to hire the lawyer to fight the long battle?

[MSlv]

Originally posted by lithoc
With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software.
Well, for now, Nero Digital's AVC is more mature than x264, so there's no point in using code from an inferior codec, right?

This is the weak point of open source, where anyone can copy their source and modify/improvise their code and become proprietary code.
I strongly believe that the license forbids or should forbid this. I think it states something like you are allowed to modify the source but you must release the software in the same way you got it: free. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am).

[Doom9]

*sigh* at Doom9's speculative tabloid journalism on the front page.If you are willing to make an official statement why you hire people with skills for which you already have a good partner, be my guest. A knowhow rampup is usually due to relationship breaking or the one partner trying to do everyting on their own (which in turn can also lead to an end of the relationship). Such things are by no means unheard of in the business world, and since there are many precedents, it is a valid conclusion to be drawn. And where would be be if journalists were only allowed to write what others would want them to write, not what they think?

[video]

Originally posted by dragongodz

of course the post video responded to was not even about hardware or commercial use by companies of free versions of programs. since he tried to use that as some sort of reason to discredit open source/freeware programs as competition i had to respond to that aswell.
[/B]

I feel You have been lost, a little bit. I've no problem with open source. Apparelntly I love open source. My problem is mpegla. I feel that, the open source community should coming out with some really free and efficient video compression technlology, and drop the whole mpeg scene. Consider for example ogg. We already have a good container, matroska.

[Doom9]

With their contribution to the open source community, that's a good point but what if they are using their open source coding into their proprietary software. Will anyone find out?Chances are that this would happen. Then it depends on who created the code.. if the copyright holder used is own code in another non open source project, but only his code, that shouldn't be a problem because the GPL does support ownership of copyright and you can do with your code as you please. But, if you create a derivative work of somebody elses GPL'ed work, then unless you only use it internally, you have to release the sources for your derivative work.

Hence, except for Sigma, the available MPEG-4 ASP codecs are not an XviD ripoffs (XviD is a very good codec so there's ample reasons to take something from that project) but legit implementations. And I have my doubts that long time open source contributors would suddenly forget where they came from and commit GPL violations willingly.

[video]

Originally posted by Doom9
Chances are that this would happen. Then it depends on who created the code.. if the copyright holder used is own code in another non open source project, but only his code, that shouldn't be a problem because the GPL does support ownership of copyright and you can do with your code as you please. But, if you create a derivative work of somebody elses GPL'ed work, then unless you only use it internally, you have to release the sources for your derivative work.

Disagree. People who have been released code as open source, won't do that. I thikg it's against the morale of a (formerly) open source developer.

I feel this topic developing towards unpleasant arguments. a huge amount of bashing of ahead and JohnV (as representative of ahead) and now the second sights about akupenguin and sysKin. please don't do that..

edit: typos

[stephanV]

This thread is getting a little bit ridiculous now... So now we are moving from accusing Nero of buying out competition towards accusing sysKin of possibly violating the GPL?

sysKin is not the property of the open-source community or anyone else than himself. Therefor, we as users cannot make any "claim" on him unless we would cough up enough money and let him sign a contract with "us". Nero, however, does have the financial means to hire his services and clauses that forbid people to use knowledge gained during working hours on other competing projects is quite a common practice in the business world. Of course, you could argue if x.264 is a competing project, which according to JohnV or his superiors it isn't.
Originally posted by JohnV
Ok, I got a comment from higher management, because these "theories" seem to get out of hand. And anyway, it was me who contacted sysKin, so if I am personally the "big evil corporate" then so be it.. :rolleyes:

"The open source communities are not our competitors. Its companies like Microsoft, Apple, Sonic Solutions, etc that are. So we welcome (and hope) that projects such as .x264 and Xvid can continue to expand. Where possible, we'll support them as we do with FAAD2"

I don't know what it says exactly in Radek's contract, but I was said it depends on the case if he can contribute, which would point that contributing on x264 is not totally forbidden like virus claims. Even more it was specifically said by our Executive Director that open source communities are not our competitors.

But the only one who has participated in this thread and really knows the contract is sysKin himself, so I will leave any comments about whether he can/want/has time to work on x.264 up to him.

This is a thread where everybody should be happy for sysKin (and not unhappy for ourselves) and where we should look for ways to continue x264 (and not for one conspiracy theory after another).

[Doom9]

Disagree. People who have been released code as open source, won't do that. I thikg it's against the morale of a (formerly) open source developer.I think you misunderstood.. my answer was to the question whether it's possible that open source code ends up in a closed source project. That's a generic question and it has happened in the past, for instance the Sigma codec, or all those router manufacturers that use linux and iptables without releasing the source code for the firmware.

I very much doubt that the people involved here would engage in such practices, but there are other less scrupulous people in this world (and no, that's not directed at Nero or Ateme either.. but companies like the ones mentioned in the first paragraph of this post).

[video]

Originally posted by Doom9
I think you misunderstood.. my answer was to the question whether it's possible that open source code ends up in a closed source project. That's a generic question and it has happened in the past, for instance the Sigma codec, or all those router manufacturers that use linux and iptables without releasing the source code for the firmware.

I very much doubt that the people involved here would engage in such practices, but there are other less scrupulous people in this world (and no, that's not directed at Nero or Ateme either.. but companies like the ones mentioned in the first paragraph of this post).

Doom9 there is no problem, it's a legal issue. regarding GPL colsed source projects can use open source code in the following fashion:
a) it should be noted
b) software portions using open source parts should be released for the public as open source


Towards you i have no doubt that it wouldn't happen. Router projects: they use the vanilla linux code even noted which version of linux they are using, believe me

[temporance]

Originally posted by video
regarding GPL colsed source projects can use open source code in the following fashion:
a) it should be noted
b) software portions using open source parts should be released for the public as open sourceNot quite. It does not have to be noted (other than the GPL boilerplate), but the source of everything that links (statically or dynamically) to the GPL code must be released under the terms of the GPL, not to the public, but to everyone who receives the binary "closed source" project. IANAL.

Back on topic, good luck to sysKin and all others hired on the basis of their open source work. Hopefully this is encouragement to others who will use open source projects like x264 as a means of showcasing their talents: a kind of virtual resumé or curriculum vitae.

[Sagittaire]

This thread is getting a little bit ridiculous now... So now we are moving from accusing Nero of buying out competition towards accusing sysKin of possibly violating the GPL?

yes ... 130 posts for anything ... too much X-Files fan's in this forum ...

Syskin is free to work for Nero
Nero is free to contact Syskin

that's all ... :D

[sasam]

To NERO:
Why don't you make your codec vfw and sell it separately. I know many people that would pay more money for vfw codec than for whole NeroVision Express, and I like to use my VirtualDub, adobe premiere filters and functions. In my eyes you are no competition to on2 vp7 codec just because their codec can be used anywhere.
What is the reason for this? You can still sell NeroVision to beginner users, but professionals require a lot more...

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by sasam

To NERO:
Why don't you make your codec vfw and sell it separately. I know many people that would pay more money for vfw codec than for whole NeroVision Express, and I like to use my VirtualDub, adobe premiere filters and functions. In my eyes you are no competition to on2 vp7 codec just because their codec can be used anywhere.
What is the reason for this? You can still sell NeroVision to beginner users, but professionals require a lot more...

Yeah, but why via the "archaic" vfw architecture ???

Simple CLI DS encoders would be better imo...

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5324/neroenc8ze.png


Bye

[Doom9]

@Soulhunter: these tools exist.. they're just not available to the general public ;)

Either way, if you want to join the x264, you know where to turn, and you'll be having the gratitude of many.

I hope akupenguin lets us know what he decides, and @JohnV: If you have an official statement regarding the news you know how to contact me.