mp4UI 1.0 RC 1 released

[stephanV]

@SMD:

i wouldn't call this behavior robust, i would call it buggy! MP4ui should give an error for an incorrect/incompatible stream type when you try to import it!

judging the contents of a file by its extension is at least very dangerous. if i rename an avi with a .mp3 extension it would still open as avi in good players. so the opposite should be true too, a wrong file with the right extension should not be allowed to be opened.

it should be possible to differentiate between an ac3-file and an aac-file without looking at the extension, no?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi kilg0r3,

I made the template by inputting and muxing some short audio and video streams into/with the application. I then played the file to make sure it was okay. And then I opened the file with mp4UI and deleted all the 'streams' and 'other' stuff.

I use this method to create all my muxes.


Hi stephanV,

I guess when you put it like that you're right. Although it would be nice to think that this tool might one day be able to mux 'non compliant streams'.

Maybe Marcus could add a 'compliant' and non-compliant' check box setting?

[kilg0r3]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Hi kilg0r3,

I made the template by inputting and muxing some short audio and video streams into/with the application. Which application do you refer to here? Mp4Ui or Nero or ..?

And a question, that hinting and interleaving, is it relevant useful for local file playback?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
Which application do you refer to here? Mp4Ui or Nero or ..?mp4UI

Originally posted by kilg0r3
And a question, that hinting and interleaving, is it relevant useful for local file playback? I assume they are for streaming.

A couple of months ago, I tried checking and un-checking the settings, when I was attempting to make some QuikTime player compatible .mp4's, but nothing seemed to help. Maybe things are different with RC1.


Cheers

[kilg0r3]

Just a short note,

it seems to me that the 'make ISMA complaint after improting a stream' option is making problems.

Now I just leave it off until all streams are imported, and then check it again before closing mp4ui. Of course i don't know if it has any effect when used in this way. But I no longer get any error messages, and, the streams are working. Which makes me happy :)

is there any way to check if a stream is isma compliant or not?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Good point!

As far as I'm aware ISMA referes to Internet Streaming Media Alliance. So it's yet another 'streaming' setting.

With this in mind I can't see that it's that important, unless you're thinking of streaming that 1.75GB encode of yours!


Cheers

[kilg0r3]

Hm, i seem to remeber a sentence like 'ISMA is important because most players only handle ISMA compliant content.' I was hoping to get some kind of guarantee that the files I encode know will be playable also on the new family of KISS players.

Sometimes we should just pick up the phone :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

You may well be correct, hopefully bond can shed some clearer light on the subject!

All I can say is, over the months I've tried all types of different softwares and tools to create MP4's. And baring using multiple B-VOP's, or even 1B-VOP in XviD's case, they work fine in hardware!

Hopefully the new Sigma chip based stand-alone players will do the same.


Cheers

[bond]

hm i dont really know the details about what things the isma compliance influences, but yes its mainly for streaming

maybe the most important thing is, that it adds a BIFS track to the MP4, which makes it possible to read the file, also for players able to decode mpeg-4 systems content (bifs). that way the isma includes the possibility to support interactive streaming menus (much more powerful than the known simple click-and-play movie trailer menus known from apples streaming trailers for example)
the bifs track in mp4ui is very simple and only tells the player the size of the picture aso, more powerful bifs tracks can enable interactivity (like if created with my mp4menu) or a bifs track can also be simply an "animation track", like the sample i linked to in my faq

[Trybe]

Hi guys, sorry for my late reply and thanks for pointing me the thread. Usually I don't stroll through all the forums every day in order to just find something about my small mp4UI tool. Just point me the forum in such cases...

I know there's still so mutch to do, but the problem is as always a lack of time - especially now, as I just finished study and started working.

My plans for the "feature" are:
- wizard with batch processing (...takes more work/time)
- subtitle import and export
- use of id3v2 for import/export of mp3/aac
- split, join and trim for both tracks and whole MP4 file

Coders are welcome :-)

Markus

[bond]

lo Trybe/Markus :)

great to have you here! there is lots of discussion going on about your tool on doom9 :)

basically for me the most important (really important!!!) issue of mp4ui atm is the avi import!
its really important as mp4ui will NOT create spec compliant MP4 files when important maybe 90% of the existing mpeg4-in-avi streams in it!

why? because of the packed bitstream hack!
the two most popular mpeg-4 codecs are divx5 and xvid, which both encode to avi! both by default also enable b-frames (which are a must when encoding normally) but which also means that packed bitstream is used!
this again means that as good as all existing mpeg4-in-avi files will use packed bitstream, which is NOT allowed in mp4, meaning mp4ui does NOT create spec compliant mp4 files from all these avi sources!

its really a big issue!!!

now there is already opensource (GPL) code existing which allows the correct importing of video streams from AVI to MP4 in the gpac project (the mp4box tool handles the correct import of ALL avi files, removing ALL avi hacks existing not allowed in mp4 (packed bitstream is only one of them, another one is that the VOL is repeated on each keyframe in avi, which is NOT allowed in MP4 too!!!))
mp4creator does not remove ANY of these existing avi hacks!!!

also as bill may from mpeg4ip shows no will at all to update their avi import code to produce spec compliant files i can only hope that you will totally drop using it for importing from avi and change to use the avi import code from gpac!
its the ONLY way to produce spec compliant mp4 files from all avi sources!

sorry to say this but until this happens it can not be recommended to any newbie to use mp4ui for creating mp4 files from avi sources! as the chance is more than great that the output will not be compliant to the mpeg-4 standard! :(

plz take this seriously! its a very important and big issue!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hey great, welcome to the fourum Markus :D


Cheers

[neo75903]

totally agree. I tried MP4UI before and those files do not play very well (depends on your encoding settings) in mp4 players.
I personally use Quyicktime as my refernce player, as my motto is "if Quicktime plays it, it plays everywhere" :)

I know QT does not support full mp4 features yet as AS profiles. But at least i have some kind of compatibility and a file i can play in almost all other mp4 players, like real, mpc, ...

[Trybe]

OK, I will have a look how AVI is imported in GPAC. I hope I can simply add those mods, because I don't want to use the whole GPAC library only because of the AVI import.

And I think it's not allowed to release binaries of GPAC code, isn't it? Actually there's already some MPEG-4 System support in mp4UI, but not in the release version due to the above thing :-(

[Trybe]

maybe I can already present you a binary for testing tomorrow - let's see...

[bond]

Originally posted by Trybe
OK, I will have a look how AVI is imported in GPAC. I hope I can simply add those mods, because I don't want to use the whole GPAC library only because of the AVI import.great! its also important that you have a look not only at the packed bitstream "unpacking" part, but also other stuff, like the VOL removing, as there are several issues with avi importing causing problems with the mpeg-4 compliance!

maybe you can also solve the audio-in-avi importing problems, i reported here (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=970236&group_id=99262&atid=623648), together with this (but this is surely not as important as the video importing)

And I think it's not allowed to release binaries of GPAC code, isn't it? Actually there's already some MPEG-4 System support in mp4UI, but not in the release version due to the above thinggpac is gnu public license, so you can use it without a problem

you are not allowed to release binaries regarding mpeg-4 systems enc/decoding as mpeg-4 systems (iso 14996-1) is not license free
but the mp4 container itself (iso 14996-14) is license free! like MP4 file creation is license free (including the whole avi import stuff of course) which means you can release binaries for free (as you do already)!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Putting Mpeg4 in .mp4 spec compliance issues to one side for a moment.

Would there be any possibilities (sometime in the future) of mp4UI being able to mux streams, not usually associated with the .mp4 container?

iTunes has managed to mux a lossy audio format into the container. But why stop here, why not include AC3, wav, DTS etc!

Of course there would need to be some kind of check box and message, warning people that the file they are about to create is not MP4 spec compliant, but it would certainly silence the doubters who currently think the MP4 container isn't flexible :D


Cheers

[pogo stick]

Hello, Markus! :)
Originally posted by Trybe
My plans for the "feature" are:
...
- split, join and trim for both tracks and whole MP4 file
....
Would be GREAT! This feature is the most wishful for me!
I also think that using GPAC's code will improve mp4UI.
And are you planing to do something with HE-AAC importing?
GPAC's MP4Box can merge video.mp4 and he-aac.mp4 right.
Would be great to have it in mp4UI!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by pogo stick
...And are you planing to do something with HE-AAC importing?
GPAC's MP4Box can merge video.mp4 and he-aac.mp4 right.
Would be great to have it in mp4UI! Regarding AAC-HE streams. What might be handy would be to allow the importing of secondary/multiple AAC LC and HE streams while still being in the .mp4 container. Thus maintaining the AAC-HE flagging signal.

Would this be possible?


Cheers

[bond]

guys, hold your breath! dont ask for too much, we want markus to come back ;)

[stephanV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Putting Mpeg4 in .mp4 spec compliance issues to one side for a moment.

Would there be any possibilities (sometime in the future) of mp4UI being able to mux streams, not usually associated with the .mp4 container?

No no, don't go that way. if you don't care about spec compliance you might as well use AVI :p. anyway, matroska would be a much better option for this.

I'd like to have a good MP4-tool first, i couldn't care less about private streams in MP4.

[bond]

Originally posted by stephanV
if you don't care about spec compliance you might as well use AVIplacing not defined streams in mp4 is like placing not defined streams in avi: not defined :p ;)
still placing private/not defined streams in mp4 doesnt break the compliance with the mpeg-4 standard! in fact the standard explicitely gives the possibility to place private streams in mp4 with a privately chosen id (something comparable to fourccs in avi, which are also privately chosen)
therefore the only difference, regarding this issue (!), between placing any stream in matroska and placing any stream in mp4 is that for mp4 these "ids" are not defined in the specs (they are only defined for mpeg streams (asp, avc, aac, mp3, mp2...))


still i also dont think that private streams should be placed in mp4 (with the exception of vobsubs, as they will be supported on standalones), as it hurts interoperability
matroska should be the way to go when combining "whatever streams existing" together!

[SeeMoreDigital]

So you guys don't like that idea then?

I suppose the important thing is to have mp4UI create fully spec compliant encodes first, before confusing the issue... other wise we'll just create another AVI type debacle.

So I guess the most important issue on the agenda is with regard to packed bitstream (B-VOP's) in AVI. Followed by AAC-HE flagging.

Would this be correct?


Cheers

[Trybe]

OK, I had a look how packed bitstream are handled in GPAC code, but I still don't understand the code and how it works :-(

For now this seems too complex for me as I'm not that much into this topic and don't wanna spend hours of work in this. Of course it would be easy to just take the whole GPAC AVI import function, but I don't want to mix both libraries - and because I simply like MPEG4IP :-) "Force" Bill or anybody else to incorporate those mods into MPEG4IP...

As for the VOL removing I made some interesting experiences: when removing/discarding VOL headers, some decoders - in my case NeroDigital - don't play those files proper anymore. I exported the track as AVI and the 3ivX decoder seemed to work.

But why removing the VOLs? See what I found in the specs:

2. Combined Configuration / Elementary Streams

The elementary stream data associated with a single layer may be wrapped in configuration information defined in
accordance with the syntax below. A visual bitstream may contain at most one instance of each of
VisualObjectSequence(), VisualObject() and VideoObjectLayer(), with the exception of repetition of the Visual
Object Sequence Header, the Visual Object Header and the Video Object Layer Header as described below. The
Visual Object Sequence Header must be identical for all visual streams input simultaneously to a decoder. The
Visual Object Headers for each layer of a multilayer object must be identical.

The Visual Object Sequence Header, the Visual Object Header and the Video Object Layer Header may be
repeated in a single visual bitstream. Repeating these headers enables random access into the visual bitstream
and recovery of these headers when the original headers are corrupted by errors. This header repetition is used
only when visual_object_type in the Visual Object Header indicates that visual object type is video. (i.e.
visual_object_type==”video ID”) All of the data elements in the Visual Object Sequence Header, the Visual Object
Header and the Video Object Layer Header repeated in a visual bitstream shall have the same value as in the
original headers, except that first_half_vbv_occupancy and latter_half_vbv_occupancy may be changed to specify
the VBV occupancy just before the removal of the first VOP following the repeated Video Object Layer Header.

I uploaded a build where you can test this: mp4UI_TestBuild.rar (http://mp4ui.sourceforge.net/mp4UI_TestBuild.rar)

Changes:
- some logging (access over advanced popup menu)
- mpeg/avi import: skip button is only shown if there's a track to skip
- all avi audio tracks are now imported

@bond: The question is what encoding/decoding in MPEG-4 Systems is.
For example: Is the transformation of XMT-A to BIFS already encoding or just representing the information binary instead of textual. I'm not sure about this, that's why I let it disabled so far in mp4UI. Btw: the above build includes it - but it's not very much tested. You should be able to import some JPEGs/PNGs and to edit OS/Scene...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Markus,

I 've just tried to install your test build with WinXP Pro, but get this: -

http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/mp4UI_error_warning.gif

EDIT: Sorry sussed it now. We just need to swap over the .exe files in the mp4UI Program Files folder ;)

Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Ok,

I just imported an 'jpeg' image file into the MP4 container but... where does it go... nothing appears in any of the mp4UI menu branches?


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by Trybe
[B]OK, I had a look how packed bitstream are handled in GPAC code, but I still don't understand the code and how it workshm, thats bad :(

"Force" Bill or anybody else to incorporate those mods into MPEG4IP...no chance, i already tried it, he will not do it or any other coding on mpeg4ip
he is working for cisco on another project and only does bug fixing anymore and adding some addons to the code made by other people

As for the VOL removing I made some interesting experiences: when removing/discarding VOL headers, some decoders - in my case NeroDigital - don't play those files proper anymore. I exported the track as AVI and the 3ivX decoder seemed to work.than there must be some other bug in your code
currently both the 3ivx and mp4box muxer remove the VOL and i never had problems regarding this (i tested all existing playback filters including nero)

But why removing the VOLs? See what I found in the specs:because its not spec compliant, as stated by the devs of 3ivx and the mp4box already, and even bill may here (http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1058312&forum_id=59136)
btw mp4creator now also removes the vol in the recent cvs (is not included in dext's latest compile tough)

I uploaded a build where you can test this: mp4UI_TestBuild.rar (http://mp4ui.sourceforge.net/mp4UI_TestBuild.rar)great i will test it asap :)

Changes:
- some logging (access over advanced popup menu)
- mpeg/avi import: skip button is only shown if there's a track to skip
- all avi audio tracks are now importeddoes this now include mp4box avi import code or mp4creator one (if mp4creator, the one which remove the vol already?)?

@bond: The question is what encoding/decoding in MPEG-4 Systems is.
For example: Is the transformation of XMT-A to BIFS already encoding or just representing the information binary instead of textual. I'm not sure about this, that's why I let it disabled so far in mp4UI. Btw: the above build includes it - but it's not very much tested.hm good question about the bifs encoding...
you really should ask jeanlf from the gpac project about this, he surely knows more about it

You should be able to import some JPEGs/PNGs and to edit OS/Scene...nice :)

[stephanV]

Originally posted by Trybe

Changes:
- some logging (access over advanced popup menu)
- mpeg/avi import: skip button is only shown if there's a track to skip
- all avi audio tracks are now imported


what does this exactly mean? i still cannot import mp3 (CBR or VBR) from avi... :(

[bond]

Originally posted by stephanV
what does this exactly mean? i still cannot import mp3 (CBR or VBR) from avi...yep, no change here too :(
i still always get a "busy/locked time out" message :(

also the jpg/png import doesnt seem to work, the picture doesnt seem to get added to the mp4 :(

edit: the scene editing is a nice feature, but always if i try to edit an advanced scene, like the one used in the kangaroo sample (http://www.comelec.enst.fr/osmo4/mp4/kangaroo.mp4), the text editor will get opened and than i get a similar failure message: "c:\windows\temp\mp4ui_5 file not found, make sure you have the right path" and no decoded scene gets displayed
if i go for "advanced -> dump -> scene" no text gets displayed too

edit2: the scene decoding only seems to work with basic scenes as created by mp4ui itself. but for example after i made a small change (removed the "scale 1 1" line) i get an error message "couldnt reimport scene (invalid trackid)"


btw how will you treat mp4 files with more than one bifs stream? the creation of those is already possible with mp4box

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
yep, no change here too :(
i still always get a "busy/locked time out" message :(

also the jpg/png import doesnt seem to work, the picture doesnt seem to get added to the mp4 :( MP3 in AVI does not work for me either.

I've found that jpg/png file importing does go into the container (as the file size increases), but mp4UI can't detect/register it. And as a result it can't be extracted either!


Cheers

[Trybe]

I switched to the latest MPEG4IP mods - so it's also easier to be in sync.

VOL and any other data (e.g. user date) is now removed in the ES. Just VOPs are taken.

M4Vs should now also be imported if they have variable frame rate - but I didn't test it so far.

I also fixed a bug in the MP3 import function - VBR MP3s are still not imported properly. I will take a look there another time as with the Systems support...

mp4UI_TestBuild.rar (http://www.markus-brenner.com/mp4ui/mp4UI_TestBuild.rar)

[bond]

Originally posted by Trybe
VOL and any other data (e.g. user date) is now removed in the ES. Just VOPs are taken.nice :)

M4Vs should now also be imported if they have variable frame rate - but I didn't test it so far.hm if i do so i get a "no VOL header found in the mpeg-4 stream" as i also got before when trying to import other raw mpeg-4 video streams (in mp4creator)

I also fixed a bug in the MP3 import function - VBR MP3s are still not imported properly. how exactly does vbr mp3 importing not work correctly?
i tried importing raw vbrmp3 and cbrmp3, seemed to work

what did not work was vbrmp3/cbrmp3 importing from inside avi. the stream was added to the mp4, but when i played the stream in dshow with the 3ivx mp4 splitter, the windows mp3 decoder connected to it correctly, but during playback no sound came (with both cbrmp3 and vbrmp3)

[SeeMoreDigital]

With this revided build, I can now input Mpeg4/MP3 CBR streams in AVI and Mpeg4/MP3 VBR streams in AVI. But, like bond... I can't hear anything!

RAW .mp3 importing still works perfectly for both stream types.


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Trybe,

With regard to importing audio streams in general.

Is there any possibility of allowing the importing of AAC streams while in the .mp4 or .m4a container.

Is there some technical reason why, you can open mp4UI with an aac in the .mp4 container but can't add further streams the same way?


Cheers

[kilg0r3]

bond in another thread i just found out that mp4box by default places the audio stream behind the video when storing the streams in MP4: to avoid too much seeking ... Does Mp4Ui do the same way? If so, I now understand why the files generated by mp4ui play with regular stops about every second or so. But why would this be limited to directshow based playback? As it does not happen when I use VLC.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
...in another thread Does Mp4Ui do the same way? If so, I now understand why the files generated by mp4ui play with regular stops about every second or so. But why would this be limited to directshow based playback? As it does not happen when I use VLC. Hi kilg0r3,

I can't understand why your encodes are doing this in your directshow based players. They work fine on my old 800MHz P3 even, anamorphic 720x576.


Cheers

[The Link]

i just found out that mp4box by default places the audio stream behind the video when storing the streams in MP4: to avoid too much seeking ...
Even if this should be the case, seeking is lightening fast with mp4. At least much faster than with avi so I don't really care about this.

Regards,
The Link

[SeeMoreDigital]

If there's going to be any lag, the audio should be behind the video anyway as this is what happens in nature.

Sound travels slower than light!


Cheers

[Trybe]

in which order audio or video tracks are shouldn't matter. isma allows anyway only one video and at most one audio track, at least that's what i'm thinking.

Is there any possibility of allowing the importing of AAC streams while in the .mp4 or .m4a container.
Is there some technical reason why, you can open mp4UI with an aac in the .mp4 container but can't add further streams the same way?

can you explain this a bit more? what exactly doesn't work?

what did not work was vbrmp3/cbrmp3 importing from inside avi. the stream was added to the mp4, but when i played the stream in dshow with the 3ivx mp4 splitter, the windows mp3 decoder connected to it correctly, but during playback no sound came (with both cbrmp3 and vbrmp3)

did you test importing mp3 out of avi with mp4creator and gpac (where avi mp3 is based on mpeg4ip)? all the mp4UI import functions are based on mp4creator, so it should work the same...

[Trybe]

i just found out that mp4box by default places the audio stream behind the video when storing the streams in MP4: to avoid too much seeking

that's nonsense, isn't it. usually you optimize/interleave MP4 files, so there's no big seeking anyway.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Trybe
can you explain this a bit more? what exactly doesn't work? Sure,

At the present time when you launch mp4UI and click on the 'New/Open' button, you get the option of importing an, MP4 File (*.mp4).

This could say, be either: -
an Audio/Video .mp4 or,
an Audio only AAC .mp4 or,
an Video only Mpeg4 .mp4

However, once one of the above has been selected you can't say 'Import' further AAC in .mp4 streams (or AAC in .m4a streams), only raw .aac streams!

You would make a lot of people very happy if you could allow this.

I hope that makes sense,


Cheers

[Trybe]

ic, you mean a .mp4 import function. i can try to add this as well as such an export function.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Trybe
ic, you mean a .mp4 import function. i can try to add this as well as such an export function. Cool :D

Will it look something like this: -

http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/mp4UI_GUI_proposal.gif

[bond]

Originally posted by Trybe
ic, you mean a .mp4 import function. i can try to add this as well as such an export function. would be great, but not only for aac audio, as smd wrote, but also for video aso... :)

Originally posted by Trybe
that's nonsense, isn't it. usually you optimize/interleave MP4 files, so there's no big seeking anyway.yes, but mp4box is highly configurable so by default it doesnt interleave, unless you use the "-inter" switch!

about mp4ui (mp4creator) what interleaving time does it use?

Originally posted by Trybe
did you test importing mp3 out of avi with mp4creator and gpac (where avi mp3 is based on mpeg4ip)? all the mp4UI import functions are based on mp4creator, so it should work the same...i wrote about importing mp3 (both vbr/cbr) stored inside mp4. the audio track gets added, but when i play it with the 3ivx filter set in directshow the audio isnt hearable (this doesnt happen when i mux the same stream with the 3ivx muxer or mp4box)
can anyone reproduce this with the latest mp4ui?

[stephanV]

personally, i cant play any of my files created with MP4ui with the 3ivx splitter; the pins connect, but 3ivx splitter doesnt give me any output pins (but maybe its just me, i have a sneeking suspicion :rolleyes: ). they do play with VLC though, although i have to recheck if there is any audio...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
would be great, but not only for aac audio, as smd wrote, but also for video aso... :) Oh yea... I must admit I had become transfixed with the prospect of AAC-HE flagging information being preserved and forgot about video streams....

Originally posted by bond
i wrote about importing mp3 (both vbr/cbr) stored inside mp4. the audio track gets added, but when i play it with the 3ivx filter set in directshow the audio isnt hearable (this doesnt happen when i mux the same stream with the 3ivx muxer or mp4box)
can anyone reproduce this with the latest mp4ui? I thought the main problem was with importing, mp3 CBR or VBR streams in AVI... I have not tried, mp3 CBR or VBR streams in MP4


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Does anybody have anything new to report?


Cheers

[Trybe]

I do: sorry guys, I have to change the continent for three/four weeks tomorrow and so I have no more time adding/fixing requests, but I'll release the version I uploaded for testing two weeks ago today. You have to wait till I'm back :-(

[SeeMoreDigital]

Are you off to anywhere nice?

[bond]

does importing audio streams from cbrmp3, vbrmp3 and aac IN avi now?