DVD Players that "stutter" with DVD-RB Authored Discs

[Fr4nz]

Can jdobbs fix it?? :) :)

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by DDogg
Alex Z, the point was that it is not working :)

Could it be due to dvd compliance flag was set on?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Could it be due to dvd compliance flag was set on? No, they aren't related.

@DDogg So it's staying 9000?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
btw, the INI entry "max_bitrate=7500" is not being transfered to the ECL. Min_bitrate is being transferred. (value was for testing purposes ONLY. Do not use for encoding) I just tried it and it worked for me. Are you sure you put it in the [Options] area of the INI?

[DDogg]

I just tried it and it worked for me. Are you sure you put it in the [Options] area of the INI? yep, but I was using one version back of eclcce. instead of 181. I would not think that would make a difference. Here is what I had:

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=7500

(testing only. Do not use these values for encoding)

[wmansir]

It worked for me when I put it at the end of [options], but if I put it at the very end of the file, in the [audio] section, it didn't work. I'll try it at the beginning of [options] and see how it goes.

EDIT: It worked there too, odd. Are you closing/reopening Rebuilder when you change the .ini file? I think it only reads those options on startup.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
yep, but I was using one version back of eclcce. instead of 181. I would not think that would make a difference. Here is what I had:

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=7500

(testing only. Do not use these values for encoding) Is there more than one [Options] section? A lot of the other values fall into [Options] and it will only search the first occurance.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by wmansir
It worked for me when I put it at the end of [options], but if I put it at the very end of the file, in the [audio] section, it didn't work. I'll try it at the beginning of [options] and see how it goes.

EDIT: It worked there too, odd. Are you closing/reopening Rebuilder when you change the .ini file? I think it only reads those options on startup. That's correct.

[DDogg]

Give wmansir the prize cigar - yeah, was very late last night and I suppose I was tired. Made the mod and started the process before retiring.

Probably just as well, as my encode turned out as 300-9000 with bias 20. It played fine on the old Apex. Something like this can always be a one off fluke. If it is a problem with low bias, others will verify it sooner or later. It sounds like the default bias will be raised, so that would deal with it nicely.

Speaking of 7500, noticed when there is a 1 frame ecl, the average bitrate is 7500 as well as the Max bitrate. Is that as it should be? These are just the black screens. Just curious more than anything as the number popped out at me.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
Give wmansir the prize cigar - yeah, was very late last night and I suppose I was tired. Made the mod and started the process before retiring.

Probably just as well, as my encode turned out as 300-9000 with bias 20. It played fine on the old Apex. Something like this can always be a one off fluke. If it is a problem with low bias, others will verify it sooner or later. It sounds like the default bias will be raised, so that would deal with it nicely.

Speaking of 7500, noticed when there is a 1 frame ecl, the average bitrate is 7500 as well as the Max bitrate. Is that as it should be? These are just the black screens. Just curious more than anything as the number popped out at me. I calculate based on the reduction ratio, the original size, and target size to get the bitrate. Sometimes the calculated result is higher than the maximum -- so it is trimmed to the max bitrate.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I have one now that doesn't match. Are you talking about the final "FINISHED" line at the end of the file?


@jdobbs

v.42. I'm about to burn a rw disk. Visually it looks identical to the source (Both source and DVD-RB show 1 or more interlaced frames somewhere @26min from the start by using DVD2AVI. Don't ask me how this possible. So it means that DVD-RB is now correctly recognizes every frame.)

Just out of curiosity, I'm comparing both d2v at the end. Are they should exactly match?

Source
7 6 2D316 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D39D 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D420 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D49A 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D512 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D582 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D5ED 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D64F 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D6A4 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D6EE 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D737 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D77B 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D7B7 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D7EC 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2D813 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D82C 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 6 2D868 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2D881 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2D98C 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DAA5 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DBB9 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DCD0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DDE4 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2DED6 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 6 2DFBC 0 1 2 3
7 6 2E016 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0AC 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0BF 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

FINISHED 100.00% FILM





DVD-RB .42 output
7 3 43D03 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43D3D 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43D77 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43DB2 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43DED 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43E27 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43E60 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 43E8D 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 43EB0 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 43EC9 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 3 43EDC 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43F14 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 43FBF 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 4404B 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 440D3 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 44158 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 441DC 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 4425E 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1
7 3 442E2 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44361 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3
7 3 44392 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

FINISHED 100.00% FILM


az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
@jdobbs

v.42. I'm about to burn a rw disk. Visually it looks identical to the source (Both source and DVD-RB show 1 or more interlaced frames somewhere @26min from the start by using DVD2AVI. Don't ask me how this possible. So it means that DVD-RB is now correctly recognizes every frame.)

Just out of curiosity, I'm comparing both d2v at the end. Are they should exactly match?

az No, the D2V's should not be expected to match, but the final FINISHED line should... The reason the rest doesn't match is a result of the reencoding... the I-FRAME and/or temporal sequence may be different. But that means nothing within a cell.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
No, the D2V's should not be expected to match, but the final FINISHED line should...

7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

@jdobbs

So, does it mean there still a problem? My LiteOn2001 has no more stutter with DVD-RB output. But Sony DVP-NC655P still has a much less noticeable one. I'll also test it with Philips DVR72 tonight.

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
7 6 2E0E6 1 2 3 0 1 2 9
7 3 443AD 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 9

@jdobbs

So, does it mean there still a problem? My LiteOn2001 has no more stutter with DVD-RB output. But Sony DVP-NC655P still has a much less noticeable one. I'll also test it with Philips DVR72 tonight.

az No. I think you misunderstood. What I meant was the line that reads "FINISHED 100.00% FILM" should match. I've compared the Progressive, TFF, and RFF output of several movies and they all are a frame-for-frame match.

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
No. I think you misunderstood.

Believe me it happens to me a lot :D

Could the single, the most noticeable stutter still be related to layer break? I know you removed it in .41. Now it's about 1/4 of the second. (was 1/2)

Added: I can probably use Philips to record Sony's (analog) output with 'on screen' turned on and later make small avi. Let me know if you are interested

az

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Alex Z
Believe me it happens to me a lot :D

Could the single, the most noticeable stutter still be related to layer break? I know you removed it in .41. Now it's about 1/4 of the second. (was 1/2)

Added: I can probably use Philips to record Sony's (analog) output with 'on screen' turned on and later make small avi. Let me know if you are interested

az I've gotten a couple of reports that the layer break is not being removed sometimes. I must be doing something wrong in the way I'm removing it.

[hoozdapimp]

I'm glad to see this is being worked on, and I hope it is fixed soon...this is one reason why I still have to use Shrink...I get these annoying stuttering problems with my DVD's...thanks for the awesome product JDobbs, expect a donation if I can ever get it to work without stuttering! :)

[Alex Z]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I've gotten a couple of reports that the layer break is not being removed sometimes. I must be doing something wrong in the way I'm removing it.


@jdobbs

After running DVD-RB's output thru shrink (no recompress), Ifoedit does not show layer break flag anymore but disk still has the problem.

Philips DVDR72 shows problem differently. It's like The Matrix's glitch which a cat. The 2-3 sec. scene being repeated twice then continues normally. Also before removing the flag if you 2x click on the chapter where layer break take place (Ifoedit) it plays a completely different scene. That scene has no problem playing. If my observation is confusing fill free to contact me for more details.

az

[Joergen]

Luckily I've been running almost if not all my discs through DVDShrink removing subs and audio (a recent disc I did had 250MB of subtitles .. 20MB tracks for each language!) so shrink has removed the layer break already when I put it through dvd-rb.

Hope jdobbs nails that thing, or just remove the layerbreakremoval if it causes more problems than its worth :)

I remember how dvdshrink avoided the question of layerbreak removal for months.. there might be a reason for that.

[AzraelsCurse]

I want to start off by saying fantastic work jdobbs! DVD-RB is a great program, and really coming along.
However I've been seeing the same things that Alex Z describes he sees on his Sony when playing DVD-RB backups on my Sony DVP-NS725P. 95% of the stuttering was fixed with version .42, however there are still a couple spots that consistantly stutter. I don't think it has anything to do with the layer break since it's more than 1 spot(2 spots in Armageddon), plus I've tried running it through DVDShrink to remove the layer break, then running it through DVD-RB and it still does the same thing. The backup plays perfectly in all other dvd players that I have though. I've backed up plenty of DVD's with DVDShrink and IC8 and have not had any stutter problem on the Sony(DVD-RB is so much better though :)). I've also created several DVD's from DV footage and had no stutter problem.
I have tried using rejig with DVD-RB a while back and don't remember seeing any stutter. I'll have to test it again to verify. I tried a couple different versions of CCE and they all do it. Quenc I've only tried once but at that time there was major stutter and the quality and speed was far off from CCE so I haven't yet played with it any further.(definitly impresive for a free encoder though)
It's strange that my other players don't have issues, but that the sony only has issues with DVD-RB backups.
I want to add that the stutter is not bad, almost overlookable even, but it is there.

[AzraelsCurse]

tested again with rejig and it does produce the same stutter as the CCE encodes, at the same 2 places in Armageddon. tested IC8 again, no stutter, but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons(since it's not multithreaded), not to mention lesser quality.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by AzraelsCurse
but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons

Heh, now there's an interesting concept: A top quality encoder being faster than a transcoder :D

I'm almost there using RBFarm and four PCs of varying speed.

AzraelsCurse: I was looking at building an encoding-only PC to use with RBFarm and didnt even think of dual processors! Does CCE really use two processors to their full capacity? That way I could buy one ATX case and PSU instead of two.

[AzraelsCurse]

Using DVD-RB with Dual 2.66 Xeon's w/HT enabled, CCE's Speed rating is usually around 3.80, but varies a little above and below. Processor usage is usually in the upper 80% to lower 90% range, Memory usage is usually near 550MB. Now if AVISYNTH was multithreaded I wonder what kind of difference it would make. :)
Dual processors are definitely very nice and I highly reccomend it, however it's possible that you may be able to build 2 decent systems for what it costs to build 1 dual processor system. The 2cpu.com message board is excellent for questions and info if you're thinking about puting together a dual processor system.

[Joergen]

Thanks!

I noticed that especially the motherboards seem twice as expensive as two similar mobos for single CPU :D I could look at buying a used rig.

[Fenix]

Hello jdobbs,

I still have problems.

I'm using version Beta 0.45.
I tried to make a backup of "American History" Europe Region2 PAL, and I used a PS2 to watch the movie (It's not a media problem, I tried several) and I can only see the first seconds of each chapter going directly to the next chapter, and so on till the end of the movie.

One strange coincidence, the movie has a lot of cells ( there are more than 700 small m2v files ) although the movie has only +/- 1h:45 min.

What could be causing this??

Regards,

Fenix (or FJorgeR)

PS: This was the only title causing this, all others were fine ;).
If you need more details, tell me what, ok?
Continue the great work you have been done so far (I sent a very small donation Sunday using the mail fjorger@......., I know it's small but it's better than nothing at all).

[RB]

Fenix, no crossposting please.

[robgarib]

I have the same problem of Fenix.
I've tried with version 0.45+cce Kill Bill vol.1 and the video stop at the beginning of the first chapter on my philips dvd612.
Tonight i'll try reinstalling version 0.39 (where all working) and then i'll see what happen.

[Fenix]

Originally posted by RB
Fenix, no crossposting please.

Sorry :( , you are right, it could lead to confusion.
Do you want me to delete one of the messages posted?

Regards,

PS: I'm not at Home, so I can't see if they have a lot of "22222" or not.
But I will tell you later on.

BTW Have you a suspicion about what could be causing this?

Regards,

Fenix (FJorgeR)

[RB]

Let's simply continue discussing this in the other thread.

[wmansir]

Well my DVD-RW's finally came and the STUTTERING IS GONE! http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/realhappy/luxhello.gif

I'm sorry I doubted you jdobbs. Well, I didn't actually doubt you, I just didn't trust you enough to waste a dvd-r on...which actually sounds worse. :D But in my defense I'm very very cheap.

I watched a whole movie, and about 60 minutes of extras. The only problem I encountered was one instance of dropped audio, but it could have been my cheap player just hiccuping because it only happened once.

The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in my standalone. It plays completely fine in the recorder, so perhaps that is a limitation of my standalone and RW discs.

[puddy]

Originally posted by wmansir
The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in my standalone. It plays completely fine in the recorder, so perhaps that is a limitation of my standalone and RW discs. At this point I do not trust DVD-RW's as a way to test. They are too flaky in my standalone players, which are several different Apex versions. And they do not play at all in my older Sony DVP-C650D.

I use DVD-R Ritek-03's exclusively and I have been very happy with them.

Just my 2 cents.

puddy

[quantum]

Originally posted by wmansir
The only bad news is these new RW's are no better than the one that came with my recorder, as I encountered errors after the 4GB mark in All the 2x -RWs I used and tested are not that great. I've had better luck with Ritek +RW's 2.4x. I also test in my liteon drive using kprobe and the +RW's definitely score better.

[Fenix]

Originally posted by AzraelsCurse
tested again with rejig and it does produce the same stutter as the CCE encodes, at the same 2 places in Armageddon. tested IC8 again, no stutter, but intrestingly a bit slower than DVD-RB using 2 pass CCE SP 2.67 on Dual Xeons(since it's not multithreaded), not to mention lesser quality.


Hi AzraelsCurse,

I have the same problem with Armageddon PAL Region2!
It's jumping all the time!
Did you manage to do it using DVDRB?
I Think I have to use the older Big3 method for this one.

Regards,

Fenix (FJorgeR).

[AzraelsCurse]

Fenix, nothing I have tried has made any difference. It still stutters. It's actually fairly minor in Armageddon for me(NSTC R1), however as I have stopped testing every possible combination of things with that movie and tried others, I'm actually noticing stutter even more in other movie's, and even now in players other than my Sony. Even my Apex stutters with some movies. I've been testing vs IC8 mostly. No stutter with IC8, but of course the quality isn't as good. I have also started to notice what some others have mentioned, where if you just fast forward through the movie, it might just skip to the next chapter.

[MysticE]

For what it's worth my JVC (progressive scan model) has no problems with Rebuilder discs. Earlier builds only had the stuttering problem in my Sampo 612n though, but this seems to have stopped now with the latest build (although I've yet to watch a disc from start to finish).

I've been playing around with DVD2DVD-R 1.81 of late (a movie only CCE program) and have been getting excellent results with discs that work great in PowerDVD and the JVC. But in my Sampo 612n I get a major stutter/glitch when advancing through the chapters (it will repeat a few seconds right after the chapter change).

I friend lent me DVD he had made with Clone, when playing in my JVC the rewind/ff would not work, yet it played correctly in the Sampo. I have a few DVD's I'd made with IC8 (removing a few logo's and trailers) that always worked right in the Sampo. But a few of these DVD's choke in the JVC (in normal playing, rather than go to the next chapter it would repeat the one it was on).

I don't know if any of this info means anything, but it seems like universal 100% compatability might just be impossible.

[Joergen]

Well the originals are "universally compatible", and if a player chokes on an original (that is in good shape and mastered to standard) then the player should not bare the DVD logo.

Using DVDShrink, quality media (preferably DVD-R) and quality burning software you can reach universal compatibility aswell.

Perhaps the discs that randomly choke the JVC are bad media? JVC is not high in my book for good reading mechanisms (had a few car cd/mp3-players with bad results).

[loosenut]

I own a JVC XV-NA77 (progressive) and it's 'readability' is 99.9999% perfect even with super cheap DVD-Rs.
And picture quality is, well.... read some reviews. 12 bit converter ;)
Never had a problem with IC7-8, DVDShrink or DVD2DVDR 1.81 on it.
The latest versions of DVDRebuilder work absolutely perfectly on it.
However, almost all DVDRB backups either choke on first chapter or no buttons work after hitting play on my Philips 743 :(

[Joergen]

Ok I believe you loosenut :)
Funny, here we are debating if a real brand name player is good or not and 9 out of 10 people have as their only player some Cyberhome, Amstrad or other POS :D

When I shopped for my second player (that became a Sony DVP NS410) after extensive testing with dvd-rw, -r and +r discs at several shops (that had players hooked up to tv's for testing) I noticed that Philips players were pretty poor. They choked on DVD-SVCD and DVB-DVD resolutions (you had to pull the plug to reset the players :D). So if a Philips doesnt work I'm not surprised. I trust them only to make kitchen appliances.

[jdobbs]

There might be an occasional exception (usually a bad disc). But as the developer, I have to make the assumption that if a DVD isn't playing right on all players it is DVD-RB's fault, and look at a way to fix it. My goal it to get this thing 100% correct for version 1.00 -- and I appreciate all the help I'm getting from the beta testers in helping it get there.

[loosenut]

@ Joergen:
Lol! True on all subjects :).
The Philips and the JVC are players No. 7 and 8 (I think), since I bought my first Panasonic a loooong time ago. Somewhere in between there were two Cyberhomes too :)
What I mean is that players (standalones) in my case come and go. Backups stay. So, it's essential to me that my backups work on my future players. That's the whole point of backups, isn't it?
I'm glad jdobbs sees it that way. I'm sure he'll figure it out.

P.S.
Indeed the Philips' are notorious for 'choking' on out of standard discs, be they CDs or DVD-+Rs. They even choke on SVCDs made with DVD2SVCD with .....Philips Standard selectable subtitles!!
But on DVDs, they stick to the DVD standards, so I keep the 743 in my bedroom as a testing player for absolute future compatibility. I know from experience now, that if a disc doesn't work on it, it will probably have problems on other players too.