horray! chapters possible in mp4!!! but how to??

[Phobos]

i was reading the 3ivX 2.5.1 changelog (http://www.3ivx.com/support/tbd_451.html) when i found something which made me jump like a joyful kid ;) :

3ivx DirectShow Media Splitter
* IChapterInfo support allows MP4 chapter lists to be used with many popular players.
* ChapterMarker support allows MP4 chapter lists to be used with other popular players.


omg, i almost crapped my pants!!! now does anybody know how to put chapters in an mp4 file??? i already have some mp4 files and a txt made by chapter extractor, id love to try this ASAP :D

[bond]

if i saw it right 3ivx currently only supports reading out the chapter info which is written by nero recode2

so to enjoy chapters this way you will have to use the recode2 tool (with the nero digital a/v codecs)

i hope 3ivx also plans to add writing chapterinfo this way!
edit: yes they do :D

[Phobos]

Originally posted by bond
i hope 3ivx also plans to add writing chapterinfo this way!
edit: yes they do :D

what do you mean?? to set chapters muxing with 3ivX filters in a newer release? or use any other kind of program to set the chapters and 3ivX will just mux them??? all this in mp4 container right?? id like to believe thats not too far from now... right?

[bond]

check stux' answer here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69683

[robUx4]

I'm glad a company decides to use a DShow interface that was designed by the Open Source community, and in particular the Matroska devs (Toff, Gabest and myself). After all all our efforts to have some player support the Matroska chapters are worth something :)

[shitowax]

Yeah well... To be honest, I didn't really understand why you guys decided to reinvent the wheel and not use the M$ interface to get chapters from windows media. Anyway, the 3ivx splitter supports both, that way, mp4 chapters work in ALL players even wmp64.

[Phobos]

Originally posted by bond
check stux' answer here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69683

thnx a lot, right now chapters in mp4 are nerodigital exclusivity ... ill wait for a muxer revamp

[robUx4]

Originally posted by shitowax
Yeah well... To be honest, I didn't really understand why you guys decided to reinvent the wheel and not use the M$ interface to get chapters from windows media. Anyway, the 3ivx splitter supports both, that way, mp4 chapters work in ALL players even wmp64.

Mmm, I just don't know the MS interface. And apparently I was told it was not good enough :) BTW we are going to support chapter editions soon. And I hope you saw that we added a new "disabled" flag in the interface too (content that will not be render if you are in between the start and end timecodes).

[shitowax]

Actually, I prefer the M$ one. It's fairly interresting and gives a bit more than chapters and it's supported by wmp64 ;).
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/htm/imediaseekinginterface.asp

You want to support chapter edition in your splitter ?!?

Originally posted by robUx4
Mmm, I just don't know the MS interface. And apparently I was told it was not good enough :) BTW we are going to support chapter editions soon. And I hope you saw that we added a new "disabled" flag in the interface too (content that will not be render if you are in between the start and end timecodes).

[robUx4]

OK, I'll investigate the MS side.
Yes the editions are in the splitter, as everything that comes from Matroska (except the data for the codec).

[[Toff]]

Originally posted by shitowax
Actually, I prefer the M$ one. It's fairly interresting and gives a bit more than chapters and it's supported by wmp64 ;).
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/htm/imediaseekinginterface.asp
You want to support chapter edition in your splitter ?!?
You probably mean the IAMExtendedSeeking (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directX/htm/iamextendedseekinginterface.asp) interface.
It's already supported since some time now.
But it's pretty limited, no nested chapters, no language support.

[shitowax]

Originally posted by [Toff]
You probably mean the IAMExtendedSeeking (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directX/htm/iamextendedseekinginterface.asp) interface.
It's already supported since some time now.
But it's pretty limited, no nested chapters, no language support.

Yeah, sorry for the bad URL, Exploder got me ;)
IAMExtendedSeeking maybe limited, but it's working fine for what we asked it to do ...

[SeeMoreDigital]

As an Xcard/JovePlayer user I'm able to create chapter marks for all my encodes by making a bookmark file!

Could such a file be slipped into an .avi or .mp4 container.

I guess all the software players would have to be altered to suit!

Cheers

[pogo stick]

Has anyone tried to use DirectShow Nero Muxer in GraphEdit for creating chapters? Muxer accepts mp4 from Nero Parser and there are options for chapters in it. It works and resulted mp4 really have chapters during playback with 3ivx splitter and any player I tried. But the problem is I can not set chapter after 214 seconds. Muxer is not accepting numbers higher then 214 and tuning them into very big numbers.
Maybe muxer was meant to act that way in GraphEdit to prevent using it outside Recode2. But maybe it's a bug on my side.
Can anyone check this?

[bond]

i also tried this, but couldnt get it to work :(

[pogo stick]

Muxer from latest NeroVision Express (nve21212) can create chapters right.
But there is another problem. :(
Nero muxer accept mp4 (video + audio HE-AAC) only from Nero parser.
Maybe there is something else, but I can connect only Nero parser.
Resulting mp4 is strange: audio plays normal and video very slow (not even close).
I tried different muxer's settings: synchronize, 64 bit mdat atom, create hint tracks, interleaving (by the way, can anyone explain them?).
Didn't help. There is also 'split file every () MB' and 'split now'. I didn't touch them yet.
But there is working solution. :)
Instead of taking audio from parser, take it from Nero Digital Audio Encoder (it will accept wav).
Resulting mp4 will be working video (in my case XviD) + audio (AAC) + chapters. :)
There is also 'Nero Format Convertor'. What is it?

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
Nero muxer accept mp4 (video + audio HE-AAC) only from Nero parser.
Maybe there is something else, but I can connect only Nero parser.yes, ahead limits their filters to only work together with themselves (also on the decoding side), except when using the avi muxer (but this combination also creates not 100% correct files!)

Resulting mp4 is strange: audio plays normal and video very slow (not even close).thats really strange, maybe a bug

I tried different muxer's settings: synchronize, 64 bit mdat atom, create hint tracks, interleaving (by the way, can anyone explain them?).hm hint tracks are for streaming, 64bit is a specific way to write the atoms afaik (can be 32bit too, which is normally used by mp4 creators), synchronize maybe helps synchronizing the streams when the source ac3 from the dvd has a delay to the video

Didn't help. There is also 'split file every () MB' and 'split now'. I didn't touch them yet.hm, so (theoretically) the nero mp4 muxer is able to split mp4 files itself ^^

Resulting mp4 will be working video (in my case XviD) + audio (AAC) + chapters.hm, last time i tried the chapter creating it didnt really work, i mean i could input the seconds and the chapters were also created, but i couldnt input seconds values which made any sense (they were always changed in the muxer itself)

does this work correctly now?

There is also 'Nero Format Convertor'.no clue, maybe it converts the image formats, like from yuy2 to yv12, or is a resampler for the audio encoder, dunno...

[SeeMoreDigital]

I think the Nero parser in NVE v2.1.2.12 has changed quite a bit!

The other day I installed a new DVD burner in one of my PC's which came with a nice new copy of Nero6.

The hard drive was formatted and everything started 'fresh'. After having installed all the WinXP updates including Win Media Player 9. I then installed Nero6.

I tested the install by playing back some 'known working' Mpeg4 .avi, Mpeg4 .mp4 and AAC in .mp4 files. Everything worked fine with both Nero's ShowTime player and WMP9 (even anamorphic encodes).

I then decided to update NeroVision Express and after re-booting I noticed that Mpeg4 .avi encodes crashed (or would display the video for a few seconds before disappearing) and AAC in .mp4 encodes just froze!

All the errors were reported as being due to Nero's "NDParser.ax" :devil:

Surely after installing Nero's products (only) they should integrate properly with Micro$ofts?

Bummer!

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
hm, so (theoretically) the nero mp4 muxer is able to split mp4 files itself ^^
I think, theoretically yes, but right now it is much easier to demux, cut and mux again, then to work with nero stuff in GraphEdit. I killed half of my rest-day connecting pins. And it's always crashing. :(
All my hopes on 3ivx guys!
Originally posted by bond
hm, last time i tried the chapter creating it didnt really work, i mean i could input the seconds and the chapters were also created, but i couldnt input seconds values which made any sense (they were always changed in the muxer itself)
does this work correctly now?
Yes, new muxer does it. :)

Good news everyone!
Adding audio and optimizing with mp4UI doesn't destroy chapter information!
So mp4UI can output mp4 with chapters if input had chapters!
:)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by pogo stick
Good news everyone!
Adding audio and optimizing with mp4UI doesn't destroy chapter information!
So mp4UI can output mp4 with chapters if input had chapters!
:) So do you mean it's possible to say, generate an Nero Recode2 encode complete with Mpeg4 video, AAC audio and chapters. And then using mp4UI, swap Recode2's mediocre video stream and replace it with XviD's?


Cheers

[pogo stick]

I don't know. Maybe. I didn't mean that.
I meant that it is possible to:

1) create MPEG4 (XviD, DivX...) video,
2) mux avi to mp4 with favourite muxer,
3) remux mp4 and create chapters with GraphEdit: Nero Digital Parser -> Nero Digital Muxer -> Nero Digital File Writer (maybe other File Writer will fit too),
4) add audio to mp4 with mp4UI,
5) enjoy mp4 with chapters using 3viX Media Splitter and favourite DirectShow Player. :)

Also maybe some other things, that my brain isn't capable of, are possible.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Oh well, I suppose I'll have to do some short tests of my own to find out.

Also, as I've never generated encodes with subtitles I wonder how well mp4UI would cope with them!


Cheers

[bond]

holy shit, it really works! (with the default file writer (did not test the nero one)) :D
i tested nve2120
and yes, the nd muxer accepts only .mp4 files (passed via the nd parser only) and it seems to also remove previous chaptermarks stored in the mp4

but a big downside imo is that you cant define the milliseconds! which means that you cant define the chapters frameaccurately in a constant framerate mp4 file :(

btw the 3ivx splitter already handles passing the chapter info! so no need for messing around with nero showtime when using the chapters :)

Originally posted by pogo stick
Adding audio and optimizing with mp4UI doesn't destroy chapter information!
So mp4UI can output mp4 with chapters if input had chapters!yep, afaik mp4ui only rewrites the changed parts and does not only remux audio and video to a new .mp4, so the udta atom (where the chapters, and also the tags are stored in, is not changed)

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Also, as I've never generated encodes with subtitles I wonder how well mp4UI would cope with them!the same goes for the subtitles!
mp4ui can already detect the subtitles stored by nero recode2 in the .mp4, and if you restore a mp4 with subs, the subs stay in too

so yes, if nothing is buggy, it should be possible to create a quick .mp4 in recode2 (with subs, chapters and aac audio) and a video stream
open up the .mp4 in mp4ui, replace the video stream with a xvid (or any other mpeg-4 stream) one (beaware to not use packed bitstream!), save it, and still have audio, subs and chapters in the mp4
of course this will also work with changing the audio streams (using another aac encoder or mp3)


still thats workintensive,
but maybe its also possible to mux the subtitles directly in graphedit with the nero muxer too?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
the same goes for the subtitles!
mp4ui can already detect the subtitles stored by nero recode2 in the .mp4, and if you restore a mp4 with subs, the subs stay in too
It works pretty well too. Here's an sample (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/XviD+AAC+Subs_in_mp4.zip) I made earlier today :)


Cheers

EDIT: Just noticed the audio is out of sync :(

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
EDIT: Just noticed the audio is out of synchm, how exactly did you create the file?

[bond]

did someone already try to mux a whole 2 hours audio+video+chapters file? did it work correctly?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
hm, how exactly did you create the file? It was my own fault as I used the wrong section of video as a starting point?

Anyway, I've replaced it now with a better PAL example. Just use the same link as before.


Cheers

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
did someone already try to mux a whole 2 hours audio+video+chapters file? did it work correctly?
I tried 21 minutes XviD+HE-AAC+chapters the way I wrote above.
Works fine, except decoder thinks that HE is LC. :(
Is there a way to mux HE-AAC in mp4 correct besides 3ivx?

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
I tried 21 minutes XviD+HE-AAC+chapters the way I wrote above.
Works fine, except decoder thinks that HE is LC. :(
Is there a way to mux HE-AAC in mp4 correct besides 3ivx? hm thats bad, did you try to feed the muxer with the nero audio encoder (encoding to he-aac)?

[SeeMoreDigital]

pogo stick,

Have you tried playing your encode using Nero's ShowTime player to see if it flags-up 'AAC h'?


Cheers

EDIT: I forgot to ask. Where about's is the data stored that provides information about the individual streams. ie: English for the 'subtitles' and English for the 'audio stream'?

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
hm thats bad, did you try to feed the muxer with the nero audio encoder (encoding to he-aac)?
I think it should work for stereo.
Encoder is acting strange.
Mono sound is becoming stereo.
Multichannel is not in the right channel order.
Preview pin of encoder sounds right, but encoded file is not.
I will look at it again later.

And there is something wrong with Nero Parser or Muxer and audio.
I tried to pass mp4 (with HE-AAC only) to muxer to create chapters and to add avi in mp4UI.
Result is hard to describe.
File size of output audio mp4 is almost the same as of input.
But time is double short. CoreAAC decoder plays it fine, but time counter is slower. :confused:
I think that's why video and audio was not in synch.
Foobar2000 plays it double fast.
So, I assume, parser and muxer not suppose to work together with audio.
And that's why Ahead didn't disabled it. Or maybe not?

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Have you tried playing your encode using Nero's ShowTime player to see if it flags-up 'AAC h'?
It shows AAC (without 'h'). :(
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
EDIT: I forgot to ask. Where about's is the data stored that provides information about the individual streams. ie: English for the 'subtitles' and English for the 'audio stream'?
I have no idea, sorry.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Eeek, pogo stick

After all those problems I'll think I'll stick to my method of generating a very quick 1pass encode with Recode2 and then swapping the video stream with XviD's.

I'll try and generate a Recode2 encode tomorrow with chapters (I've never done one before so if there's anything to look out for please let me know) and subs.

And report my findings.


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
And there is something wrong with Nero Parser or Muxer and audio.
I tried to pass mp4 (with HE-AAC only) to muxer to create chapters and to add avi in mp4UI.
Result is hard to describe.
File size of output audio mp4 is almost the same as of input.
But time is double short.yes i noticed the same:
i encoded an audio-only he-aac file with nero via besweet (no problems with this), after remuxing via the nero filters (+ setting of chapters (also works for audio-only files btw)) i get
1) filesize ~ the same as the input mp4 (but not exactly)
2) the length is only ~ the half of the input stream. winamp also only displays the half length for example and the playback simply stops after the end is reached

CoreAAC decoder plays it fineyep, i also noticed that coreaac (next to the faad winamp plugin) also handles it as he-aac ("aac+sbr") correctly
only the 3ivx aac decoder seems to have problems detecting an playing the sbr part (also with the original nero encoded file)

So, I assume, parser and muxer not suppose to work together with audio.
And that's why Ahead didn't disabled it. Or maybe not?i assume the audio muxing is buggy
maybe ahead never checked this and only tested it to work correctly from inside nero recode2...

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm now back to using one of the older Nero parsers and decoder and everything appears to be ok again.

But it would seem anybody installing Nero only products, to play Mpeg4 video in either .avi or .mp4 and/or AAC audio in .mp4 are going to have problems when they decide to update/upgrade.

I've got another PC that requires formatting and re-installing with WinXP etc. I guess I could check the above again to be 100% sure!

Or is this a known fact?


Cheers

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
After all those problems I'll think I'll stick to my method of generating a very quick 1pass encode with Recode2 and then swapping the video stream with XviD's.
I'll try and generate a Recode2 encode tomorrow with chapters (I've never done one before so if there's anything to look out for please let me know) and subs.
Now if I got it right, Recode2 takes chapters from DVD and set it in mp4 automatically. There is no option to disable or change it. I tried making fast ND encode. All fast settings, 16x16 resolution (psychedelic blurs are very nice and looking good :) ) and one pass. 21 minutes of Futurama took about 6 minutes of encoding (including audio). And then changed video to 640x480 XviD with mp4UI. Decoder recognizes HE-AAC and chapters are all right. First way to combine these 2 things. There are disadvantages: audio preprocessing (if any?) is done automatically by Recode2 (but I like BeSweet), chapters are not customizable at all and only one audio stream.
Originally posted by bond
hm thats bad, did you try to feed the muxer with the nero audio encoder (encoding to he-aac)?
Second way to combine HE-AAC and chapters is to use Nero encoder before muxer. Only good for stereo, but preprocessing can be done and chapters can be set manually.

And 5-step way I wrote above is good for none HE-AAC audio supported by mp4UI.
Originally posted by bond
the same goes for the subtitles!
mp4ui can already detect the subtitles stored by nero recode2 in the .mp4, and if you restore a mp4 with subs, the subs stay in too
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
It works pretty well too. Here's an sample (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/XviD+AAC+Subs_in_mp4.zip) I made earlier today :)
But 3ivx splitter can not handle subtitles in mp4, can it?
Only Nero ShowTime can, but it didn't like XviD.
So I prefer VSFilter.

After all that '....' , I will be impatiently waiting for 3ivx release and I really hope that it will not be limited to their codec, no matter how good it will be. And if Ahead really want to be ahead, they should think about 3ivx future release. I hope that both of them will surprise us even more. Why do I feel so optimistic? :)

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
Decoder recognizes HE-AAC and chapters are all right.did you do this with the latest official recode2 or did you go back to an older version as smd proposed?

There are disadvantages: audio preprocessing (if any?) is done automatically by Recode2 (but I like BeSweet), chapters are not customizable at all and only one audio stream.of course you can also replace the audio stream via mp4ui (and of course you can also add more than 1 audio stream in mp4ui)

But 3ivx splitter can not handle subtitles in mp4, can it?
Only Nero ShowTime can, but it didn't like XviD.
So I prefer VSFilter.not at the moment, but they are working on supporting it

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by pogo stick
But 3ivx splitter can not handle subtitles in mp4, can it?
Only Nero ShowTime can, but it didn't like XviD.
So I prefer VSFilter. What was the problem with ShowTime and XviD?


Cheers

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
did you do this with the latest official recode2 or did you go back to an older version as smd proposed?
Latest one: 2.0.0.18 from NVE 2.1.2.12
Originally posted by bond
of course you can also replace the audio stream via mp4ui (and of course you can also add more than 1 audio stream in mp4ui)
But if audio is HE-AAC then decoders will think it's LC.
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
What was the problem with ShowTime and XviD?
I checked it again and it seems to work with XviD, but don't like high postprocessing levels. Or my CPU don't handle it, but that would be very stange.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by pogo stick
I checked it again and it seems to work with XviD, but don't like high postprocessing levels. Or my CPU don't handle it, but that would be very stange. You can adjust ShowTime's PP or turn it off altogether, which is what I do!

That said I only use the player to make sure the streams are all working/flagging properly and general tests.

When it comes to watching full movie encodes I "do it in hardware" :D and have to create chapter positions quite differently!


EDIT: If you do upgrade to a newer verion of Nero, remember to save a copy of your exising parser, so you can swap them over

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
But if audio is HE-AAC then decoders will think it's LC.if you mux a .aac he-aac file to a .mp4 via mp4ui than the sbr flag will not be there of course (as there is non in .aac)
BUT afaik the coreaac decoder should be able to detect he-aac during playback anyways

I checked it again and it seems to work with XviDwell it shouldnt matter at all what encoder was used to produce the mpeg-4 stream, as long as the stream is spec compliant

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
BUT afaik the coreaac decoder should be able to detect he-aac during playback anyways
But CoreAAC version 1.0b9 show AAC LC and 44100 -> 44100 Hz.

[bond]

are you sure its he-aac? :D
maybe the nero dshow encoder defaults back to lc-aac automatically or so...
is the quality really grap? also try to decode in winamp and with the 3ivx dshow decoder and report what they say

[pogo stick]

Yes!
And if you will ask me: Is it a fact?
My answer will be: No, it's not! It's how it actually is! It's HE-AAC! :D

Nero dshow encoder can produce HE.
But we were talking about mp4UI and aac import. aac was made with Nero Wave Editor.
.aac(HE) -> mp4UI -> .mp4(HE?)
CoreAAC and foobar2000 are telling it's LC, 44100 Hz.
WinAmp doesn't tell anything about profile, but shows 22050 Hz.
ShowTime tells it's AAC (without 'h').
And 3ivx audio part is expired.

[bond]

Originally posted by pogo stick
WinAmp doesn't tell anything about profile, but shows 22050 Hz.oki, this means that it is indeed he-aac :D

But we were talking about mp4UI and aac import. aac was made with Nero Wave Editor.
.aac(HE) -> mp4UI -> .mp4(HE?)
CoreAAC and foobar2000 are telling it's LC, 44100 Hz.
ShowTime tells it's AAC (without 'h').
And 3ivx audio part is expired.ok, than everything is as it should be!

he-aac in .aac indicates nowhere that the stream is he-aac, if you now mux to .mp4 it will also nowhere indicate that it is he-aac
still coreaac should be able to detect that its he-aac, by decoding the first frame or so, and should decode it fine, but still display the wrong profile

[SeeMoreDigital]

Using mp4UI as an AAC stream muxer an de-muxer is quite handy. But it's a shame that when you use it to de-mux 'known' AAC-HE streams the bit of code that identifies it as being 'HE' is lost.

Does any know where this 'HE' info is stored.

If I remember rightly, AVI container fans can select an 'SBR' option in Alexander Noé's AVI-mux. It would be useful to have something like this for us MP4 fans.


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Does any know where this 'HE' info is stored.the adts header format (used in .aac files) was specified before anyone even thought about using he-aac, therefore it also doesnt have a flag somewhere for storing this information

this information is only stored on the container level in the mp4 container itself
now the problem is that currently none of the mp4 muxer is offering an option to mark an aac stream as he-aac when muxing from .aac, but if such a tool would exist all these problems would be gone :)

i tried to convince bill may (the dev of mpeg4ip (on which mp4ui is based on) to add such an option to his mp4creator tool, but he wasnt really willing to do it
but maybe if more people bug him he might add it. try your luck with posting in this thread (http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1003525&forum_id=59136) :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Wow, you made these posts way back in January this year!

Since then, AAC-HE has become much more popular with the help of Nero.

Maybe we could change his mind now?


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Maybe we could change his mind now?well if you post there and ask him to support flagging he-aac in mp4creator ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
well if you post there and ask him to support flagging he-aac in mp4creator ;) Job done!

I wonder if any other forum members could do the same :D


Cheers

[pogo stick]

Just registered at SourceForge. Waiting for confirmation email. :)