horray! chapters possible in mp4!!! but how to??

[bond]

oki doki guys, now that we are at it, it would be also great if there would be some preasure on this issue: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=892359&group_id=99262&atid=623648 :D

its a request for using the avi import code from mp4box and not the one from mpeg4ip, as the mpeg4ip one doesnt handle importing packed bitstreams right, which is causing a lot of incompatible mp4 files with 90% of the divx5/xvid encodes
the one from mp4box was buggy on long files and vbr mp3 till now, but the recent code on the cvs seems to have fixed all these issues

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
but maybe if more people bug him he might add it. try your luck with posting in this thread (http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1003525&forum_id=59136) :D
Looks like this will not work.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for confirmation email. :(

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi pogo stick,

I go my confirmation email immediately!


Cheers

[JasonFly]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
It works pretty well too. Here's an sample (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/XviD+AAC+Subs_in_mp4.zip) I made earlier today :)


Your sample qorks pretty well on my system. I used The Core Media player for playing with 3ivx splitter, ffdshow video decoder and CoreAAC audio decoder.
Of course, subs were not displayed because of 3ivx but the result was perfect anyway.

Did you use "pogostick" procedure to create your .mp4 ou did you use Nero recode to create the initial .mp4 wooith chapters and subs?

BTW, CoreAAC report AAC stream as HE-AAC. That worked for an old 1.0b8 of november and for the latest 1.0b9. Seems that we 're close to have a perfect .mp4 :).

[bond]

its now possible to place chaptermarks in .mp4 files when muxing with the nero dshow mp4 muxer!
nero parser (input .mp4) -> nero muxer (set chapters) -> (nero) filter writer (output .mp4)

some people reported problems with the audio/video sync tough :mad:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by JasonFly
Did you use "pogostick" procedure to create your .mp4 ou did you use Nero recode to create the initial .mp4 wooith chapters and subs? I encoded everything using Recode2 but swapped the video stream with XviD's using mp4UI

Originally posted by JasonFly
BTW, CoreAAC report AAC stream as HE-AAC. That worked for an old 1.0b8 of november and for the latest 1.0b9. Seems that we 're close to have a perfect .mp4 :). Yes, I think we are close now. If you play the file using the newest version of ShowTime player (which comes with NeroVision Express) you get perfect playback with easy access to the subs.

Originally posted by bond
its now possible to place chaptermarks in .mp4 files when muxing with the nero dshow mp4 muxer!
nero parser (input .mp4) -> nero muxer (set chapters) -> (nero) filter writer (output .mp4) Can you upload a test file so we can all try in the ShowTime player please?


Cheers

[Phobos]

omg these are extraordinary news...

i downloaded the sample and played with old wmp, it detected one chapter, could you make the next sample with various chapters (can be random, i dont want a bigger file necesarily hehe)?

also im trying to sume up a fast way to achieve this...

I wanted to see vsfilter type subtitles in mp4 because they are so much smaller, but what do you guys think of it?? maybe they will never get hardware support, so im planning just use the recode2 method and substitute both audio and video with mp4ui. Or is there a "manual" way to mux the sub files directly from the dvd with the new muxer?



I also think the mpeg4ip dude ignoring he-aac is a bit ackward, he-aac is part of mpeg4 spec so he should support it, but same as subtitles i have no intentions on waiting for his (null) support (same as mpc audio in hardware , lol jk mpc fans).

All in all i describe the perfect (with perfect i mean very but not 100% possible to have full featured hardware support) mp4 as follows:

-Xvid Video with B-frames and GMC (i dont give a damn about qpel)
-He-AAC+PS audio (ps if needed)
-subs from dvd (the same sub files ripped from the dvd, for hardware support)
-current mp4 chapter handling is fine.

So yes i believe we are very close.

I hope 3ivx realizes a way to mux the subs from the dvd (i dont give a damn about srts any more, might never get hardware support) and set chapters with ms or fps precision. fully playable with any ds player via 3ivx, thats what i would call a perfect mp4. And i'd start to rip my 'perfect' mp4s right away for all my dvds... only to wait for standalone support-... :/ (phillips dvp642 is close to that..)

please, i exhort you (not optional, but not demanding hehee) to comment on my conclusions

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Can you upload a test file so we can all try in the ShowTime player please?grap it here (http://8ung.at/bond/nero_chapters.mp4)
it has chaptermarks placed at
00:00:07.000 (bone)
00:00:21.000 (denzel washington)
00:00:23.000 (flash)

it seems that the nero muxer isnt able to set the milliseconds, which means that frameaccurate chapters are not possible with it

also in this sample you will see that i didnt get audio/video sync issues, other people reported

Originally posted by Phobos
I wanted to see vsfilter type subtitles in mp4 because they are so much smaller, but what do you guys think of it??with vsfilter subs you mean .srt? if yes than i wouldnt use them in .mp4 as the mpeg-4 standard defines its own official subtitle text format (small size), which some muxer supporting it are in preparation already

Or is there a "manual" way to mux the sub files directly from the dvd with the new muxer?as recode2 is basically a gui for the nero dshow filter, there is surely a way to mux the vobsubs into .mp4 with the nero filters, but this has to be tested

I also think the mpeg4ip dude ignoring he-aac is a bit ackward, he-aac is part of mpeg4 spec so he should support it, but same as subtitles i have no intentions on waiting for his (null) support (same as mpc audio in hardware , lol jk mpc fans).hm the mpeg4ip devs (mainly bill may) are not ignoring it, but he simply doesnt really work on it anymore, meaning he doesnt write new code, only does bug fixes and commits code contributions from other devs to the source
so if some would write a batch to set the he-aac flag in mp4creator of mpeg4ip they will surely add this

I hope 3ivx realizes a way to mux the subs from the dvd (i dont give a damn about srts any more, might never get hardware support) and set chapters with ms or fps precision. fully playable with any ds player via 3ivx, thats what i would call a perfect mp4.well i think they will hear your wishes :)

[Phobos]

Originally posted by bond
with vsfilter subs you mean .srt? if yes than i wouldnt use them in .mp4 as the mpeg-4 standard defines its own official subtitle text format (small size), which some muxer supporting it are in preparation already

3ivX possibly? that would be sweet for video filesize and overall quality, but im afraid we would need to wait a lot more to get the tools to convert srt to this mp4 subtitle format, am i wrong?

i also downloaded your new encode and it worked well in old wmp, but had no luck in crappy wm9 (didnt find where to switch chapters). bsplayer worked fine. we are really close m8s

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
grap it here (http://8ung.at/bond/nero_chapters.mp4)
it has chaptermarks placed at
00:00:07.000 (bone)
00:00:21.000 (denzel washington)
00:00:23.000 (flash)

it seems that the nero muxer isnt able to set the milliseconds, which means that frameaccurate chapters are not possible with it

also in this sample you will see that i didnt get audio/video sync issues, other people reported I can't get the encode to work with Nero's ShowTime player at all... I just hangs in the player!

I am able to access the chapters: -

http://img43.exs.cx/img43/2946/SMD_Recode2_Chapters.gif

And the ShowTime identiies the audio stream as being AAC. But nothing else :(

[bond]

Originally posted by Phobos
3ivX possibly? ... but im afraid we would need to wait a lot more to get the tools to convert srt to this mp4 subtitle format, am i wrong?who knows ;)

i also downloaded your new encode and it worked well in old wmp, but had no luck in crappy wm9 (didnt find where to switch chapters). bsplayer worked fine.afaik wmp9 doesnt offer the interface for chapters (altough their old 6.4 player does :D )
it also worked here in bsplayer

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I can't get the encode to work with Nero's ShowTime player at all... I just hangs in the player!
I am able to access the chapters: -
And the ShowTime identiies the audio stream as being AAC. But nothing elsehm strange, what if you remux with another mp4 muxer, like 3ivx
does it than still hang (maybe the stream itself is borky)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
...hm strange, what if you remux with another mp4 muxer, like 3ivx does it than still hang (maybe the stream itself is borky) Like you say it works a treat in the "oldie but goodie" version of Windows Media Player 6.4. It also works in MPC via the 'Navigate' tab and 'Jump To...' option....

http://img49.exs.cx/img49/8683/SMD_MPC_Navigation.gif

Via hardware playback, the MP4 encode stops and starts and is very jittery. But when de-muxed to AVI it plays fine.

I like it though and it's great that it works so well in MPC (shame it does not work in hardware)!

I wonder... Do you have to do anything special in Recode2 to make it work?


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
[B]Like you say it works a treat in the "oldie but goodie" version of Windows Media Player 6.4. It also works in MPC via the 'Navigate' tab and 'Jump To...' option....

Via hardware playback, the MP4 encode stops and starts and is very jittery. But when de-muxed to AVI it plays fine.hm does it work if you remux with 3ivx for example?

Do you have to do anything special in Recode2 to make it work?what do you mean? i didnt use recode to crwate the file. i muxed in graphedit with the nero muxer filter

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
hm does it work if you remux with 3ivx for example? I've not tried any re-muxing tools in GraphEdit only mp4UI. But I'm interested to know how/where the chapter points are stored!

Originally posted by bond
what do you mean? i didnt use recode to crwate the file. i muxed in graphedit with the nero muxer filter Arhh yes, I forgot about this... but still I wonder how Recode2 will do it. And if there's any special trick to it?

It's great fun though!


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Arhh yes, I forgot about this... but still I wonder how Recode2 will do it. And if there's any special trick to it? Success!

Just tried an 3 chapter music DVD (Bjork - All Is Full Of Love) with Recode2 and the chapters work perfectly.

In fact the chapter navigation works better in MPC than it does in ShowTime... I even dug out a 6 month old Recode2 encode I did of 'The Red Planet' and the chapter points are there too. I didn't realize they had always been there...

You live and learn!


Cheers

[Phobos]

so using recode2 is perfectly compliant with your card, while the manual graphedit method is b0rked, right?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Phobos
so using recode2 is perfectly compliant with your card, while the manual graphedit method is b0rked, right? Yes!

I can't select the individual chapters with the Xcard but I'm sure this can and will be implemented soon.


Cheers

[Phobos]

im curious, does your card support the supposed mp4 official subtitle format??? i guess newer sigma chips should...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Phobos
im curious, does your card support the supposed mp4 official subtitle format??? i guess newer sigma chips should... Unfortunately, not yet!

But hopes are high because with Sigma and Nero producing chip-sets and software for the new (soon to be released) Kiss Mpeg4 in .MP4 stand-alone players. Hope are high that us Xcard users will have these implementations soon.


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I've not tried any re-muxing tools in GraphEdit only mp4UI.can you plz try remuxing my chaptersample with 3ivx and report whether it still borks
the chaptermarks will get lost with this i think, but i would be interested in knowing whether the streams are borky or only the nero muxer

But I'm interested to know how/where the chapter points are stored!the chaptermarks are stored in the udta atom, just like the tags (but are not tags of course)

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I can't select the individual chapters with the Xcard but I'm sure this can and will be implemented soon.i also think that the firmware will support the chapters/subs as sigma already announced support for it for their mpeg-4 decoding chips

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
can you plz try remuxing my chaptersample with 3ivx and report whether it still borks
the chaptermarks will get lost with this i think, but i would be interested in knowing whether the streams are borky or only the nero muxer I'm having problems using GraphEdit to de-mux the MP4 to AVI.

I'm using this graph (which is the one we discussed 14 April): -
[A/V MP4]-->[3ivx splitter]-->[avi/ogm/mkv muxer]-->[file writer]

but for some reason when ever I try to connect the 3ivx splitter to AVI Mux, 3ivx D4 video decoder pops up. And the resulting AVI ends up being 594MB!!!

I've also tried using mp4UI to de-mux and create an AVI stream (which incidentally plays fine in hardware). However, when I use GraphEdit and 3ivx to mux the AVI stream back into the MP4 container it's still b0rked.

I've tried using GraphEdit to mux other AVI sources and the resulting MP4's work perfectly.


Sorry mate

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
but for some reason when ever I try to connect the 3ivx splitter to AVI Mux, 3ivx D4 video decoder pops up. And the resulting AVI ends up being 594MB!!!i think thats because you forget to tick the "allow unsupported decoders" option in the 3ivx splitter (if its not ticked only the 3ivx decoder can connect to it)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
i think thats because you forget to tick the "allow unsupported decoders" option in the 3ivx splitter (if its not ticked only the 3ivx decoder can connect to it) Thanks bond, that's indeed sorted out the connection problem!

Unfortunately, even after re-muxing the AVI stream with 3ivx to MP4 it's still borked in hardware... strange eh?


Cheers

[bond]

hm i guess this means that the audio/video stream itself of my chaptertesting sample is borky

[SiXXGuNNZ]

so, how do you split files with nero digital? or at least tell the program what size to split at?

[bond]

Originally posted by SiXXGuNNZ
so, how do you split files with nero digital? or at least tell the program what size to split at? create a muxing graph using nero filters only (nero parser, nero muxer, nero file writer) in graphedit. open the options for the nero muxer, choose your desired filesize for the first file (ie 700mb), push play

[cheerow]

Originally posted by bond
create a muxing graph using nero filters only (nero parser, nero muxer, nero file writer) in graphedit. open the options for the nero muxer, choose your desired filesize for the first file (ie 700mb), push play

I did this and it split the video as supposed BUT the files played at ~10 fps (normal cpu load for a 25 fps vid with he-aac audio is around 30% on my pc so this is not the problem). Video was XviD with BVOPs, audio 5.1 HE-AAC.

Anyone else having this problem?

[bond]

hm maybe he-aac causes this speed drop (because of the lower samplerate)?
can you plz try it with lc-aac too (for me it worked)

[SiXXGuNNZ]

Originally posted by bond
create a muxing graph using nero filters only (nero parser, nero muxer, nero file writer) in graphedit. open the options for the nero muxer, choose your desired filesize for the first file (ie 700mb), push play

wow, that was very easy :o

thanks mate! :D

[SiXXGuNNZ]

Originally posted by cheerow
I did this and it split the video as supposed BUT the files played at ~10 fps (normal cpu load for a 25 fps vid with he-aac audio is around 30% on my pc so this is not the problem). Video was XviD with BVOPs, audio 5.1 HE-AAC.

Anyone else having this problem?

same thing here, I will try it with lc

edit: yep, seems to work fine with the lc profile

[bond]

Originally posted by SiXXGuNNZ
yep, seems to work fine with the lc profileinteresting, so the muxer works fine with normal aac :)

so to sum it up;
1) individual creation of mp4 files with chapters
2) cutting of mpeg-4 asp files
is possible now :)

the only problem was reported by smd, trying to play my sample in nero showtime and on his xcard
smd, did you already try it, splitting and chapter setting via the nero muxer in graphedit, with a file created by your own?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
...the only problem was reported by smd, trying to play my sample in nero showtime and on his xcard
smd, did you already try it, splitting and chapter setting via the nero muxer in graphedit, with a file created by your own? Yes I did make my own chapter test file with 10No chapter points. It seems works ok via MPC and WMP6.4... and you can even set-up your 6 channel speakers system with it!

It also plays with the Xcard but because the audio stream has 6No discrete channels (instead of 2No) they are not correctly mapped.

Now this is what I call useful (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Recode2_Chapter_Test.zip)


Cheers

[bond]

cool, so it seems its save to use the nero muxer (when not using he-aac) :)

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
[B]Yes I did make my own chapter test file with 10No chapter points. It seems works ok via MPC and WMP6.4... and you can even set-up your 6 channel speakers system with it!

It also plays with the Xcard but because the audio stream has 6No discrete channels (instead of 2No) they are not correctly mapped.

Now this is what I call useful (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Recode2_Chapter_Test.zip)hm somehow this file doesnt really work well here...

the audio is only noise (latest coreaac) and ffdshow shows that the playback freezes at some frames (for example #44)

the chapters seems to work

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, this is what the encode is designed to do.

The original Mpeg2 source only contained 177 PAL frames but ran for 77 seconds. So I had to convert it to 25fps.

It was a bit of a ball-ache to do but the 25fps version work better than the 2.302fps version - which I still have if you're interested...


Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
The original Mpeg2 source only contained 177 PAL frames but ran for 77 seconds. So I had to convert it to 25fps.hm how did you do that?

It was a bit of a ball-ache to do but the 25fps version work better than the 2.302fps version - which I still have if you're interested...yes plz :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
hm how did you do that?I re-authored the required VOB files using Recode2's "Remake a DVD" option. It works quite well except for the obligatory quality loss when you re-encode

Originally posted by bond
yes plz :) Well, here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Recode2_Chapter_Test_Original.zip) it is!

Don't expect too much from it though, as the audio soon becomes out of sync with the video!

Can you confirm where the chapter information is stored with 'Recode2' encodes. Is it logged somewhere in the container. Or is it in the stream itself?


Cheers

[SiXXGuNNZ]

if I create a crap encode w/ recode, 16x16 quant 31 and set the audio to he-aac 256 cbr 48khz, then rip the crap video out with mp4ui and add the xvid video in, I can then load the file into the nero muxer and split it just fine, so it seems that when I use besweet to create the audio with same settings above, it slows the frame rate down during remuxing/splitting in the nero muxer.

I also emailed nero about this, and they told me how to split mpeg files in nero vision :p I guess they missed the part I was asking about mp4 splitting ;)