The Real 10 Platform [Archive] - Page 4

hellfred

20th January 2004, 15:34

Hi
I wanted to enjoy homegrown rm-files with HE AAC audio tracks.
Producer made them, MPC can play them (as long as RealPlayer10 is not installed and uses CoreAAC), only RealPlayer10 fails.
I have installed the beta using the link given in this forum, have manually updated 3GPP PlugIn and H.263 Video Plug-in Support and wanted to open the rm file containing the HE AAC source. I get an note that RealPlayer needs to download some software but then tells me that "There is no software update available from Real to support this content" for the content racp.
Coppying racp.dll form the sdk-addon to common files real codecs crashes realplayer when i try to play the HE AAC content.
Any suggestions how to solve this?

Win98 on PIII

Hellfred

P.S. How to get HE AAC in rm container back working on MPC? I know i have to do some view -> options -> filters -> overrides tweaks.
But what to do exactly?
I do Add -> CoreAAC and put the radio-button to Prefere.
In the lower part there is an section MEDIATYPE_Audio added automatically containing two SubTypes:
{000000FF-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71} and
{4134504D-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}

Do i have to add other subtibes, the MEDIATYPE_Video with the same two SubTypes, or do I have to Block some other filters?

karl_lillevold

20th January 2004, 16:40

Hello hellfred, Like I wrote in the FAQ in the first post, RP10 can not currently play back HE-AAC in RM due to a bug. In fact, two bugs: 1) raac.dll will crash, 2) the renderer plugin does not recognize racp. Neither of these bugs affect how MPC plays back AAC or HE-AAC, even when it uses raac.

As opposed to the encoder, racp.dll should not be copied to the player's folder, since raac.dll can decode both AAC (raac) and HE-AAC (racp). If it had not been for bug 1), if you had hex-edited to file to FourCC raac, it would have played fine. raac can mean both AAC and HE-AAC. racp means HE-AAC. MPC plays back both raac and racp.

However, also MPC has a bug playing back HE-AAC, which shows up when combined with video (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=431463#post431463).

I will clarify the FAQ.

hellfred

20th January 2004, 16:59

Thanks for the reply
Looks like the update of my first note came too late.
Meanwhile i got that it is up to now not possible to play the HE_AAC rm files unless you tune them using the hex-editor so that they are recognized as normal (=LC?) AAC streams.
Can you give me some tips for the override in MPC?
Though i thought i made it clear to use CoreAAC, MPC crashes with an access violation in raac or after removing racp.dll, i get RealMedia error. Till i installed RealPlayer10 i was able to play HE-AAC back with MPC.

Hellfred
Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Hello hellfred, Like I wrote in the FAQ in the first post, RP10 can not currently play back HE-AAC in RM due to a bug. In fact, two bugs: 1) raac.dll will crash, 2) the renderer plugin does not recognize racp.

As opposed to the encoder, racp.dll should not be copied to the player's folder, since raac.dll can decode both AAC (raac) and HE-AAC (racp). If it had not been for bug 1), if you had hex-edited to file to FourCC raac, it wold have played fine. raac can mean both AAC and HE-AAC. racp means HE-AAC.

In fact, also MPC has a bug playing back HE-AAC, which shows up when [url=http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=431463#post431463]combined with video[/video].

I will clarify the FAQ, because it is not very clear.

karl_lillevold

20th January 2004, 17:03

Originally posted by jcsston
I have tested it with AAC audio, RealVideo 10, cook audio, and sipr audio. (I couldn't get producer to encode any HE-AAC)

Awesome! It works very well, even with HE-AAC, after you get the fixed audio codec wrapper, referred to in my FAQ in the first post ("Is it possible to encode HE-AAC in Helix Producer 10?"). See this example (http://www.lillevold.com/files/a_racp_mkvwriter.mkv).

The only feature I kind of miss, is how the RM writer does not over-write existing files with the same name, but archives them as filename_archnnn.rmvb... Not really that important though, just something I have gotten used to, and nice for experimenting with many encodes.

MKV without using job file
One nice feature in Producer I just learned is that a job file is not necessary to select this plugin. Just use extension .mkv for the output filename, and Producer will auto-select the mkvwriter!

producer -i input.avi -o output.mkv -ad test.rpad -lc e,d

It even encodes SureStream, but no known player can play back SureStream MKV files, which BTW are not very useful, since SureStream is useful only for streaming.

Hmm, i just noticed that with my non-jobfile test above, a backup output.mkv_arch001 is created, so I am not sure where this feature lives or exactly how it is triggered.

karl_lillevold

20th January 2004, 17:11

@hellfred: 1) it sounds like MPC switched to RealMedia mode. Make sure it is in DirectShow mode for Real Media files. You know, the somewhat-hard-to-find pulldown menu at the end of each line in the "formats" menu. 2) in the over-rides section, add CoreAAC and check "prefer" for it to be selected first. Note that this is not really necessary, since the bug in raac is triggered only in RP10 and RealMedia mode ...

gabest

20th January 2004, 17:26

In the next version of MPC I'm going to change the rm/rmvb/ram/... handler to directshow and only use the native api when opening a url and the mime type is among the known realmedia types.

hellfred

20th January 2004, 19:13

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
[B]@hellfred: 1) it sounds like MPC switched to RealMedia mode. Make sure it is in DirectShow mode for Real Media files. You know, the somewhat-hard-to-find pulldown menu at the end of each line in the "formats" menu.
I have to confess, without your hint i would never have found that pulldown menu. Fascinating, how good this control elements can be hidden these days. :D
Now it is working. Thanks and sorry for troubeling you.

Hellfred

satori

21st January 2004, 03:17

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
MKV without using job file
One nice feature in Producer I just learned is that a job file is not necessary to select this plugin. Just use extension .mkv for the output filename, and Producer will auto-select the mkvwriter!

producer -i input.avi -o output.mkv -ad test.rpad -lc e,d

[/B]

I've just tried this method for audio files.I used foobar2000 and CLI diskwriter components.It make Real container.(I've tried both .mka and .mkv extentions)
I've also tried without fb2k,It also make real conteiner.But I encode with job file,it make matroska:confused:

jcsston

21st January 2004, 08:38

Originally posted by zedude
jcsston , nice plugin :)
it works perfectly, and with racp as well ;)
unfortunatly, as language for streams is english(default) one can not edit this info with matroskaprop, i'm quite sure you can fix it :D thanks !
This updated version writes a default value for "eng" for the track language so you can change it. I am currently working on a way to set Matroska muxing setting from the .rpjf job file.
This is an example of what will work so far.

<destination xsi:type="fileDestination">
<filename type="string">I:\home_video_test.mkv</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
<pluginName type="string">rn-file-mkv</pluginName>

<matroskaSettings type="bag">

<matroskaTag type="string">GENERATED_BY=Helix DNA(TM) Producer 10.0 for Windows, Build 10.0.0.74</matroskaTag>
</matroskaSettings>
</destination>

Hmm, i just noticed that with my non-jobfile test above, a backup output.mkv_arch001 is created, so I am not sure where this feature lives or exactly how it is triggered.
I have noticed that too, so I'm not sure what or if anything I need to do in the plugin to have it backup/archive instead of overwriting.

Edit: Almost forgot the link mkvwriter-v0.0.3 (http://corecodec.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15&release_id=124)

karl_lillevold

21st January 2004, 09:37

@gabest : great news re dshow vs realmedia options. I have explained it so many times by now.. I am sure you have too :)

@satori : This 'wfm' = works for me. First I made sure audio only to mka worked on the command line, then I set up the CLI encoder in foobar2000 like this (mkvwriter may not support any of the clipinfo fields you could have placed metadata tags in):

http://www.lillevold.com/files/png/fb2000.png

with my audio.rpad like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">128000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">128000</maxBitrate>
<streams>
<audioStream>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-realaudio</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">raac</codecName>
<codecFlavor type="uint">2</codecFlavor>
<streamContext type="bag">
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
</streamContext>
</audioStream>
</streams>
</audience>

Did you set the extension in the ext field? Are you sure you are calling Producer 10?

satori

21st January 2004, 12:57

karl_lillevold:

Thank you very much for your tutorial.Now I replaced every tools are latest.It is work now.
But another problem is mka input plugin of foobar2000 does not play this .mka files.It can play mpc or another directshow players.

hellfred

21st January 2004, 13:23

@jcsston: I am just curiouse. Will you add vorbis as possible audio codec for your Matroska output plugin. (mkv and mka?)
I do am content with having HE AAC as audio codec (:D), but up to now i was little bit sad that, though producer supports the nice and open audio codec vorbis, it can only be used for audio-only encodes. :(
I thought that might be a problem with the container rm because of unsolved problems muxing rv40 video and vorbis audio.
So i hoped to avoid this trouble by using your output-plugin.
But it does not work.
Do you planed to add vorbis, is there a limitation in producer that prefents the use of vorbis together with video or did i just make a mistake?

VideoVorbis.rpjf:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<job xmlns="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:schemaLocation="http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0 http://ns.real.com/tools/job.2.0.xsd">
<disableLoadManagement type="bool">false</disableLoadManagement>
<enableTwoPass type="bool">true</enableTwoPass>
<clipInfo>
<entry>
<name>Allow Recording</name>
<value type="bool">true</value>
</entry>
<entry>
<name>Generated By</name>
<value type="string">Helix DNA(TM) Producer 10.0 for Windows, Build 10.0.0.74</value>
</entry>
</clipInfo>
<input xsi:type="avFileInput">
<filename type="string">RahXephon.avi</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
</input>
<parOutputs>
<output>
<destinations>
<destination xsi:type="fileDestination">
<filename type="string">RahXephon_vorbis.mkv</filename>
<name type="string">home_video_test</name>
<pluginName type="string">rn-file-mkv</pluginName>
</destination>
</destinations>
<mediaProfile>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<disableAudio type="bool">false</disableAudio>
<disableVideo type="bool">false</disableVideo>
<outputHeight type="uint">0</outputHeight>
<outputWidth type="uint">0</outputWidth>
<resizeQuality type="string">high</resizeQuality>
<videoMode type="string">normal</videoMode>
<audienceRefs>
<audienceRef>VorbisTest</audienceRef>
</audienceRefs>
</mediaProfile>
</output>
</parOutputs>
<audiences>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">450000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">1500000</maxBitrate>
<name type="string">VorbisTest</name>
<streams>
<stream xsi:type="videoStream">
<codecName type="string">rv10</codecName>
<enableLossProtection type="bool">false</enableLossProtection>
<encodingComplexity type="string">high</encodingComplexity>
<encodingType type="string">vbrBitrate</encodingType>
<maxFrameRate type="double">30.000000</maxFrameRate>
<maxKeyFrameInterval type="double">10.000000</maxKeyFrameInterval>
<maxStartupLatency type="double">60.000000</maxStartupLatency>
<pluginName type="string">rn-videocodec-realvideo</pluginName>
<quality type="uint">30</quality>
</stream>
<stream xsi:type="audioStream">
<codecFlavor type="uint">7</codecFlavor>
<codecName type="string">vorbis</codecName>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-vorbis</pluginName>
<streamContext type="bag">
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<presentationType type="string">audio-video</presentationType>
</streamContext>
</stream>
<stream xsi:type="audioStream">
<codecFlavor type="uint">7</codecFlavor>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-vorbis</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">vorbis</codecName>
<streamContext type="bag">
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
</streamContext>
</stream>
</streams>
</audience>
</audiences>
</job>

producer.exe -j VideoVorbis.rpjf -lc "e,i,w,d" >out.txt

...

Diagnostic: Using VorbisTest Audience
Diagnostic: Using video codec: rv10 (322000 bps)
Warning: Unrecognized property analysisFile provided to the Vorbis Codec.
Diagnostic: Using audio codec: vorbis (128000 bps)
Info: Starting encoding pass
Diagnostic: Setting video packet size to 1352
Error: Invalid codec specified for the mkv file writer.
Info: Total | Audio | Video | Avg | Min | Avg |
Min | Pre- |Audience Name
Info: kbps | kbps | kbps | FPS | FPS | QI |
QI | roll |
Info: Total Bitrate = 0 kbps
Error: Encoding failed!
Done Errors: 2 Warnings: 2

karl_lillevold

21st January 2004, 19:43

Using Producer to rip to iPod compatible M4A

Using Producer like satori first suggested in foobar, reminded me how I set up EAC to rip to AAC encoded with Nero... So with the latest mkvtoolnix and mp4creator60, it is now possible to set up foobar or EAC to rip to iPod compatible M4A using RealProducer 10 with RA10-AAC (Coding Technologies AAC). All you have to do is to set the CLI encoder up like this:

encoder: c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe
extension: m4a
parameters: /c d:\misc\producer_10\producer.exe -i %s -o %d.mka -ad c:\audio.rpad -dv && mkvextract tracks %d.mka 1:%d.aac && mp4creator60 -aac-profile=4 -optimize -create=%d.aac %d
(no line-breaks, add/edit full paths for each tool if they are not in your $PATH)

For this to work, you need jcsston's mkvwriter in Producer's tools directory. Without mkvwriter, one additional step from RM to MKA is needed.

You may also want to tag on at the end of the long line above:
&& tg.exe %d --artist "%a" --album "%g" --track "%n" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year %y
if you would like tags in your M4A file..

for 192 kbps AAC, use audio.rpad like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<audience>
<avgBitrate type="uint">192000</avgBitrate>
<maxBitrate type="uint">192000</maxBitrate>
<streams>
<audioStream>
<pluginName type="string">rn-audiocodec-realaudio</pluginName>
<codecName type="string">raac</codecName>
<codecFlavor type="uint">4</codecFlavor>
<streamContext type="bag">
<presentationType type="string">audio-only</presentationType>
<audioMode type="string">music</audioMode>
</streamContext>
</audioStream>
</streams>
</audience>

satori

22nd January 2004, 10:41

@karl_lillevold
In this process.It made .mka .aac and.m4a files.
aac file shows AAC+SBR in foobar2000.But .m4a shows only AAC.
(I never checked by iTunes since I just uninstalled)
When AAC wrapped in mpeg4 container was SBR header losted?

karl_lillevold

22nd January 2004, 17:00

re SBR info lost: Yes, the raw ADTS .AAC format does not have a flag to store whether or not there is SBR information in a stream. This is a well known problem, and most AAC decoders (CT, Core, 3ivx) handle this by decoding the first frame to figure it out. In some cases the wrong information will be shown (Core), but still decoded correctly. 3ivx on the other hand displays HE-AAC in any case.

bond

22nd January 2004, 18:01

well sbr/he-aac in .aac should be whereever possible avoided

only because some (not all) decoders support a workaround for these crappy files, some people might already call mka/mp4/m4a files with he-aac/sbr but without the needed flag borked...

but i guess it would solve the problem if jcsston could add support for adding this flag to .mka already via commandline (as for example mkvmerge and avi-mux gui already offer)!

karl_lillevold

22nd January 2004, 18:29

Originally posted by bond
but i guess it would solve the problem if jcsston could add support for adding this flag to .mka already via commandline (as for example mkvmerge and avi-mux gui already offer)!
That flag already exists. The problem is the process above goes via aac to get to mp4. If there was a way to get directly from mka to mp4, without stopping by .aac, there would not be a problem. Perhaps such a method exists.?

bond

22nd January 2004, 18:37

ah ic (stupid me :D )

but no, afaik no mp4 muxer supports flagging he-aac when muxing to mp4 :angry:

S_O

22nd January 2004, 23:43

That flag already exists. The problem is the process above goes via aac to get to mp4. If there was a way to get directly from mka to mp4, without stopping by .aac, there would not be a problem. Perhaps such a method exists.?
What about GraphEdit?
he_aac_file.mka -> Matroska Splitter -> 3ivx Muxer -> he_aac_file.mp4
If the flag is set in the mka, it should be set in the mp4, too.

karl_lillevold

23rd January 2004, 23:44

Re Graphedit w 3ivx MP4 muxer: In theory, yes. In practice, no, at least not on my system (latest versions of all filters). Resulting file plays twice the speed, and is full of noise. Also, for the command chain above, everything needed to be on the command line, to be able to run in CLI encoders (EAC, foobar2000).

S_O

24th January 2004, 00:40

In theory, yes. In practice, no, at least not on my system (latest versions of all filters). Resulting file plays twice the speed, and is full of noise. Also, for the command chain above, everything needed to be on the command line, to be able to run in CLI encoders (EAC, foobar2000).Unfortunately you´re right :( I have exactly the same problem. But since he_aac.rm -> RealMedia Splitter -> 3ivx Muxer -> he_aac.mp4 works fine, the problem is most likely in matroska splitter.

hartiberlin

24th January 2004, 01:05

Where can I download a well done RV10 encoded
HDTV movie clip ?

I want to compare there against some WMV9 clips.
Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

bond

24th January 2004, 03:28

hartiberlin,
didnt we already discuss how to correctly compare rv9/10 vs wmv9 vs mpeg-4 hdtv clips?
or was this with somone else?

kamiller42

25th January 2004, 05:24

This is probably a dumb list of questions, but I am not knowledgable of the all specs between the compression technologies.

Is AAC better than RA8 for saving CD tracks? I get the impression it is. If so, what AAC compression level in RealPlayer 10 should I use to save CD tracks?

How does RV10 compare to DivX 5.1.1? Given the same source video file, do they compress to comparable size files? Does one format have advantage over another in regards to editing or streaming?

Sirber

25th January 2004, 15:41

Hi

AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps. AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.

About RV10 vs DivX, it's all about taste. I encode mostly animes, and with RV10 I can get 60% smaller files without big quality loss.

bond

25th January 2004, 16:13

Originally posted by Sirber
AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps.he-aac is also great for bitrates lower than 64kbps, in fact it was voted to bring much better quality on 64kbps than ra and wma

AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.good aac codecs (like apples or nero) already bring as good as transparent quality at 128kbps
dunno about the quality real's aac codec brings...

SeeMoreDigital

25th January 2004, 16:36

'Tiss true

Hey Sirber if you want to hear some comparisons of 2Ch HE and LC AAC encodes at low bitrates please check out Area 51 of my web site!

I will be adding Mp3pro, WMV9 and maybe some RA9/10 audio soon.

Cheers

karl_lillevold

25th January 2004, 16:43

Originally posted by bond
good aac codecs (like apples or nero) already bring as good as transparent quality at 128kbps. dunno about the quality real's aac codec brings...
We did not write our own AAC encoder. It is licensed from Coding Technologies (CT). Quality wise, it should be in the best company. I do not know the details of the various implementations, but it is my understanding Dolby, FhG, Apple, and CT share a large part of the LC AAC baseline implementations, but have each done their own individual listening based tuning.

CT invented "Plus" (HE), and the HE part of the AAC codec we license was implemented exclusively by CT, and should be the highest possible quality. CT's extensive audio experience is highly regarded. It would be interesting to have a listening test compare the LC AAC part of these codecs though, to see if the individual tuning has made a difference. It would also be nice to have the HE part compared, I think only CT and Nero have so far implemented HE...

bond

25th January 2004, 16:53

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
It would be interesting to have a listening test compare the LC AAC part of these codecs though, to see if the individual tuning has made a difference.yep there are differences
check out rjamorims public listening tests:
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/aac128test/results.html

especially sorenson (fhg) vs. apple (dolby), nero is completely self made afaik

It would also be nice to have the HE part compared, I think only CT and Nero have so far implemented HE...Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Hey Sirber if you want to hear some comparisons of 2Ch HE and LC AAC encodes at low bitrates please check out Area 51 of my web site!
I will be adding Mp3pro, WMV9 and maybe some RA9/10 audio soon.low bitrate compares are also availble on rjamorims site:
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html

btw there is now a listening test about mp3 at 128kbps running, would be great if you guys join it :)
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/mp3-128/presentation.html

the more people participate the better the results!

karl_lillevold

25th January 2004, 17:03

Re: rjamorims public listening tests: I know about those, and have taken part in most of them (well, at least one clip each). The Coding Technologies AAC codec has not been included in any of them yet, and the 64 kbps test includes only Nero-HE, even though HE was invented by CT. Perhaps as more "HE" implementations become available, there will be a separate HE test.

bond

25th January 2004, 17:13

rjamorim already has plans for a new aac test

but now the important test is mp3 at 128kbps ;)

kamiller42

25th January 2004, 23:48

Originally posted by Sirber
AAC range is from 64 to 320kbps, RA8 (cook) is from 16 to 96kbps. AAC is surely better than cook for CD ripping, since you can choose 192kbps.

This was what I thought based on a previously published table showing the different levels of quality. However, it's confusing given the following quotes:

"RealAudio 10 incorporates the standards-based and widely used MPEG-4 AAC codec at bitrates over 128 kbps."

"RealAudio 10 incorporates the RealAudio codec for bitrates less than 128 kbps and is renowned for delivering near CD audio quality at 64 kbps."

Source: https://www.helixcommunity.org/realcodecs/

"For low to mid bit rate files (< 128 Kbps), RealAudio 10 deploys the advanced audio compression techniques that have made Real the worldwide leader in streaming media technologies and content delivery. "

"At higher bit rates (> 128 Kbps - typically suited for download or high bandwidth networks), RealAudio 10 incorporates the MPEG-4 AAC codec."

"AAC codec support at bitrates over 128 kbs means that music encoded can reach the many devices that support AAC..."

Source: http://www.realnetworks.com/products/codecs/realaudio.html

All of these quotes seem to imply AAC doesn't come into play until rates over 128. At 128 or lower, it's Cook. What gives?

Given the overlap (64 to 96), what am I using when I select 96kps in RealPlayer as the CD rip quality? Cook or AAC? I would love if the documentation discussed some of these issues. :rolleyes:

About RV10 vs DivX, it's all about taste. I encode mostly animes, and with RV10 I can get 60% smaller files without big quality loss.

Hmmm, interesting... I've been using Dr. DivX to encode my Simpsons DVD sets to HD. Can you recommend a good HOWTO for ripping DVDs to RealVideo? I am assuming you can't give Real Producer as VOB file as a source.

Sirber

26th January 2004, 01:19

You can't give VOB to any apps, it all go through AVISynth.

Cook: 5kbps - 96kbps
AAC: 64kbps - 320kbps
HE-AAC: 64kbps - 128kbps

Youcan use whatever codec you want.

kamiller42

26th January 2004, 03:28

Originally posted by Sirber
You can't give VOB to any apps, it all go through AVISynth.

Dr. DivX can process unencrypted VOB files. I thought Real Producer or another RealVideo tool might be able too.

Cook: 5kbps - 96kbps
AAC: 64kbps - 320kbps
HE-AAC: 64kbps - 128kbps

Youcan use whatever codec you want.

In RealPlayer 10, there are no distinctions. There are bitrates under "RealAudio" format and _one_ of the options is 96 Kbps. Given your chart above, how do I know which CODEC is being used? Cook, AAC, HE-AAC? They all support 96 Kbps. This is probably more obvious if using the CLI encoder, but not so obvious with RealPlayer 10.

Thanks for your help!

Sirber

26th January 2004, 03:45

I don,t know about Dr DIVX, but if your VOB is playable by DirectShow, procuder can handle them. About "Real Producer GUI", not RealPlayer, I can't tell since I only use my own encoding tools :D

karl_lillevold

26th January 2004, 03:45

hello kamiller42, thanks for your interest.

Your question about MPEG-2 as input to Producer is answered in the main sticky RV9 Info thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40392), section "Supported input formats to producer"

I understand you are confused about which codecs are used in RealPlayer 10 when ripping to "RealAudio 10". It is not easy to know. Unfortunately for advanced users of RealPlayer 10, design decisions are made mainly for the main intended target audience for RealPlayer 10, who are perhaps not that advanced, and one is worried they would be more confused by "complicated codec choices" ... Uuhm. Also see the FAQ in this thread, section "Why is not HE-AAC encoding supported in RealProducer, or why does not RealPlayer 10 rip music to HE-AAC at 96 kbps and below?" and "Which file format is AAC wrapped in when encoded in Producer or ripped in RealPlayer 10?"

bond

26th January 2004, 10:50

Originally posted by kamiller42
"RealAudio 10 incorporates the RealAudio codec for bitrates less than 128 kbps and is renowned for delivering near CD audio quality at 64 kbps."well thats simply marketing! you will surely not get cd quality at 64kbps!
do you believe everything the ads tell you? ;)

once again he-aac (and vorbis) beats the hell out of ra8 (or wma9) if it comes to 64kbps as proven independantly here (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html)

"For low to mid bit rate files (< 128 Kbps), RealAudio 10 deploys the advanced audio compression techniques that have made Real the worldwide leader in streaming media technologies and content delivery. "
"At higher bit rates (> 128 Kbps - typically suited for download or high bandwidth networks), RealAudio 10 incorporates the MPEG-4 AAC codec."well i guess this already answers your question about: "what am I using when I select 96kps in RealPlayer as the CD rip quality"?
you will use cook (ra8)

if you want to use 96kbps and realplayer isnt able to output aac at that bitrate, simply use another aac encoder (ie quicktime or nero), which are more compliant to exisiting hardware players anyways as they output .mp4 files (whereas realplayer outputs .ra which i doubt is supported by ipod for example)

I've been using Dr. DivX to encode my Simpsons DVD sets to HD. Can you recommend a good HOWTO for ripping DVDs to RealVideo? I am assuming you can't give Real Producer as VOB file as a source:search:

SeeMoreDigital

26th January 2004, 13:15

Well I'm a bit confused now (which isn't difficult)!

I followed your link and found this: -

Supported input formats to producer
Producer's native input format is I420, but it accepts YV12 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56972) and most uncompressed YUV formats with minimal color conversions. Also, since Producer reads files via DirectShow in Windows, it can transcode any format you can play back with a DirectShow player. This means you can directly encode .MPG, .WMV, .ASF, .MKV, .D2V, .AC3, .AVI (uncompressed, compressed, XviD, DivX), .AVS (of course), and even .VOB files, as long as you have the DirectShow filters installed such that the files are playable in your DS media player of choice. You can even transcode RM files, if you have the RealMediaSplitter (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56940) installed.

Previously with Helix Producer 9, I used to have to install Elecards Mpeg2 player (as well as AC3 filter) in order for Producer to 'see' .vob files in all their glory!

Has this really been superseded by simply installing the RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.9?

Cheers

Sirber

26th January 2004, 13:53

nope, a splitter isn't a codec :)

karl_lillevold

26th January 2004, 17:02

Has this really been superseded by simply installing the RealMediaSplitter 1.0.0.9?

You can even transcode RM files, if you have the RealMediaSplitter installed.

RealMediaSplitter adds the ability to have Producer read RM files. It does not assist in reading MPEG-2.

kamiller42

27th January 2004, 07:28

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
hello kamiller42, thanks for your interest.

Your question about MPEG-2 as input to Producer is answered in the main sticky RV9 Info thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40392), section "Supported input formats to producer"

Good to see I can feed VOB files to Real Producer. I didn't have much luck in the past. I will have to give the new version a spin.

I understand you are confused about which codecs are used in RealPlayer 10 when ripping to "RealAudio 10". It is not easy to know. Unfortunately for advanced users, design decisions are made mainly for the main intended target audience for RealPlayer 10, who are perhaps not that advanced, and one is worried they would be more confused by "complicated codec choices" ... Uuhm.
I guess I am one of those not so advanced. That's ok. I can eat a piece of humble pie with the best of them.

Let me see if I can summarize what the FAQ and thread says about RealPlayer.

1. HE-AAC is a higher quality format than AAC.
2. AAC is a higher quality format than RA8, otherwise known as Cook.
3. Real Network nor Helix wrote the AAC or HE-AAC codec. It's good nonetheless. :)
4. You cannot rip to HE-AAC at any rate now or when it's gold.
5. You can rip to AAC at bitrates 128kbps and above.
6. AAC files are ripped as .ra files.
7. On Gold release, AAC files will rip to .aac files. (What does this mean for AAC files ripped .ra in the beta?)

Did I get it right? Please correct or expand on these points.

karl_lillevold

27th January 2004, 07:50

@kamiller42: I apologize for any un-intended categorization. I only meant to speak of how the RealPlayer 10 UI is in some cases simplified so much that it is hard to use when one wants to fine-tune settings and make codec choices. Since you want to know exactly which codec and format to use, you are clearly one of the advanced users of RealPlayer 10 :) Then the simple menu is hard to understand, since it lists only RealAudio 10. Coming up with a UI that's user-friendly and understandable for everyone is pretty hard. Perhaps a check-box for "advanced" should be added, opening up all sorts of options, like detailed codec choices, encoder complexity, Volume Control preference, etc.

1) HE-AAC is just an addition to AAC, increasing the quality at 96 kbps and below, by adding so called SBR information. It is like MP3Pro, also invented by Coding Technologies, who later came up with AACPlus, now called HE-AAC.
2) cook does not scale above 96 kbps. AAC first starts to behave really well at 128 kbps. Which is better at 96 kbps and below probably depends on the listener. This listening test (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html) shows that AAC and cook got almost the same overall score at 64 kbps, while HE-AAC got the best score by far. Of course, your own ears should be the final judge.
3) absolutely
4) nope not now, but I can not speak for Gold.
5) yes
6) yes
7) Could be .m4a, could be .aac, most likely not .ra. Time will tell.

Thanks!

kamiller42

29th January 2004, 20:39

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
@kamiller42: I only meant to speak of how the RealPlayer 10 UI is in some cases simplified so much that it is hard to use when one wants to fine-tune settings and make codec choices.
Now there's a statement which hits the nail right on the head.

Since you want to know exactly which codec and format to use, you are clearly one of the advanced users of RealPlayer 10 :) Then the simple menu is hard to understand, since it lists only RealAudio 10.
Since you raised the issue of the user interface, what happened to the handy hypertext navigating RealOne Player had? I loved that thing. When you keep navigating down into your library, like all the way down to a song, you could click one of the "bread crumb" hyperlinks just above the list view to get yourself back to whatever upper level you like. Maybe something else replaced it, and I don't see it. :(

Coming up with a UI that's user-friendly and understandable for everyone is pretty hard. Perhaps a check-box for "advanced" should be added, opening up all sorts of options, like detailed codec choices, encoder complexity, Volume Control preference, etc.
That sounds like a great idea. :)

1) HE-AAC is just an addition to AAC, increasing the quality at 96 kbps and below, by adding so called SBR information. It is like MP3Pro, also invented by Coding Technologies, who later came up with AACPlus, now called HE-AAC.
So HE-AAC excels at 96kbps and below, whereas AAC is best above 96. Hmm, so if HE-AAC is used by the RealPlayer 10 Gold for bitrates below 128, that doesn't leave much room for Cook. I guess Real Networks has an invested interest in keeping Cook around, and therefore, will probably not use HE-AAC to cut into Cook's turf. We'll see when Gold comes out.

2) cook does not scale above 96 kbps. AAC first starts to behave really well at 128 kbps. Which is better at 96 kbps and below probably depends on the listener. This listening test (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/results.html) shows that AAC and cook got almost the same overall score at 64 kbps, while HE-AAC got the best score by far. Of course, your own ears should be the final judge.
If I'm reading the test correctly, the scores are based on an average of votes from contributing listeners. It seems tht would be susceptible to bias by fanboys. There are people who will say mp3 is superior to all no matter what. Ditto for RealAudio, etc., but I think the population of MP3 users heavily weighs bias to MP3's side.

4) nope not now, but I can not speak for Gold.
Now I hope it will. :)
7) Could be .m4a, could be .aac, most likely not .ra. Time will tell.
Speaking of time, what's the target date for gold? :)

The reason why all of this is important to me is because I've been using Real for music and recently video management since RealJukebox 1.0. I've purchased every version since. I've maintained my CD collection as a digital archive. I'm ready to refresh my digital audio library and am trying to determine which format should be my next high quality, compressed format. I would do lossless, but it takes too space.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable. Am I oversimplying?

Latexxx

29th January 2004, 21:06

Originally posted by kamiller42

If I'm reading the test correctly, the scores are based on an average of votes from contributing listeners. It seems tht would be susceptible to bias by fanboys. There are people who will say mp3 is superior to all no matter what. Ditto for RealAudio, etc., but I think the population of MP3 users heavily weighs bias to MP3's side.
If you had also read
this (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/64test/presentation.html), you had noticed that the listening test was done using a program called abc/hr (http://ff123.net/abchr/abchr.html) using which the users don't know which sample they are rating. I know this stuff. I was one of the participants.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable. Am I oversimplying?
The quality isn't comparable. It is possible to distinguish the 96 kbps HE-AAC sample from original by most people. The 192 kbps version is better. If you don't believe me, test it yourself using abx-method.

Ps. If you want to test your own hearing, take part in the MP3 at 128 kbps test (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=17563&)

bond

30th January 2004, 10:44

karl_lillevold

31st January 2004, 19:44

kamiller42:

Since you raised the issue of the user interface, what happened to the handy hypertext navigating RealOne Player had? When you keep navigating down into your library, like all the way down to a song, you could click one of the "bread crumb" hyperlinks just above the list view to get yourself back to whatever upper level you like.
I don't have a system with RealOne V2, so I am not 100% sure I remember this feature. However, it seems in RealPlayer 10, you have both hyperlinks and pulldown-menus to navigate back up the library tree. See this snapshot:

http://www.lillevold.com/files/png/rp10_library.png

So HE-AAC excels at 96kbps and below, whereas AAC is best above 96. Hmm, so if HE-AAC is used by the RealPlayer 10 Gold for bitrates below 128, that doesn't leave much room for Cook. I guess Real Networks has an invested interest in keeping Cook around, and therefore, will probably not use HE-AAC to cut into Cook's turf. We'll see when Gold comes out.
We support RealAudio on many devices now, especially in the mobile space, where Cooke himself and his colleague have optimized the cook decoder to run faster and with a smaller memory footprint than their fixed point MP3 decoder, which is already the world's fastest ARM implementation. AAC on the other hand is a more complex decoder, especially if you include all its advanced features. Add HE- on top of that, and you have something that is very hard to get to run on small devices. Besides of course, the cost associated with obtaining fixed point implementations and licensing the IP for HE-AAC. This is why HE-AAC has its drawbacks even though it sounds great at low bitrates.

I was going to start using RealAudio @ 192kbs, which gives me AAC. Should I wait to see if HE-AAC comes out with Gold? It would seem better to use HE-AAC @ 96kbps than AAC @ 192kbps if the quality is comparable.
I would recommend AAC at 192 kbps, which I think there is wide agreement is very close to transparancy, and sounds better than HE-AAC at 96 kbps. This will play fine on devices that support AAC. I know of the iPod right now, others are probably soon arriving. Since RealPlayer 10 currently rips to .ra, you will have to go through some trans-muxing steps to convert to a device friendly format, until RealPlayer 10 Gold ships. See my FAQ in the first post.

Personally I ripped all my CDs to an early version of MP3 at 128 kbps many years ago, and have been happy with that for general computer playback. However, with practice from listening tests, for instance on hydrogenaudio, but mostly the use good headphones and a high quality DAC, I felt as if I learned a whole new world [yes, I am a video codec engineer, not audio]. I can now hear how many artifacts MP3 at 128 kbps has, and have started re-ripping all my old CDs to AAC at 192 kbps, assuming there will be widespread support for AAC in devices. Due to the reasons listed above, it will take more time until we see HE-AAC in devices.