The Real 10 Platform

[bond]

Originally posted by S_O
3ivx Filters: http://www.3ivx.com/download/windows.html
As audio decoder you can use their own decoder or CoreAAC. I´m not sure, but I think they also use FAAD2 for decoding, so there shouldn´t be any difference between CoreAAC / 3ivx Audio Decoder.nope 3ivx doesnt use faad2, but as it is limited to 30days coreaac is the way to go for decoding aac on dshow

coreaac also offers a downmix to stereo option

[S_O]

nope 3ivx doesnt use faad2, but as it is limited to 30days coreaac is the way to go for decoding aac on dshowDo they have an own implementation or did they licence one? Does it support SBR?

FAAD2-fixes are now in CVS, after messing around with DXSDK I was finally able to compile CoreAAC, here are my test-results:
RM WMP 6.4
rm_aac128.rm | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | ok
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | ok
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok
I´ll send Toff a mail that he´ll release a new CoreAAC version.

[karl_lillevold]

ok. thanks! Updated:

MPC 6.4.7.5 +
RM RP10 raac Core 3ivx
rm_aac128.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_aac256_51.rm | ok | ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac32.rm | # | ok | ok | ok
rm_he-aac96_51.rm | #1)| ok | ok | ok
ADTS
adts_aac64.aac | ok | - | ok | ok
adts_he-aac64.aac | ok | - | ok*| ok
adts_he-aac160_51.aac | # | - | ok*| ok
MP4
mp4_aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok | ok
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 | ok | - | ok*| ok

MPC chooses decoders and splitters automatically, but can be
configured. With RP10 installed, it prefers raac.dll for RM files
(racc = Coding Technologies decoder), otherwise uses DirectShow
decoder, if available. Configure in MPC in optins, filter, over-rides,
which DS filter is preferred, if many are installed.

DirectShow parsers:
.aac : AAC Parser Filter
.mp4 : 3ivx Media Splitter

DirectShow decoders:
Core = CoreAAC 1.0b9
3ivx = 3ivx D4 4.5

# = no go, usually crash
1) : stuttering
ok*: appears to decode SBR info, but does not display AAC+SBR

-=-=-

On a side-note, 3ivx works well, but when they talk about RealPlayer niceness, at least it asks to take over filetypes. 3ivx does not, and re-mapped mp4 to WMP6.4 and took its icon. Well, at least it's easy to take back :)

Looking forward to an updated CoreAAC.

[bond]

am i getting ignored?

you both report that the he-aac .aac/.mp4 files get played back properly, but are you 100% sure that coreaac reports aac+sbr as profile?

if not it will not decode the sbr part of the file, which means the playback will be worse quality than if it would be decoded as he-aac

just because you hear the music it doesnt mean that the playback works right

[karl_lillevold]

sorry, bond. You are right, there is no SBR when using CoreAAC 1.07b as the decoder. Maybe in S_O's build it works.

[bond]

nope it will not work as there is nowhere stored in the file that it is a he-aac
hell, thats what i am trying to tell you all the time :rolleyes:

there is no he-aac flag stored in a plain .aac file (even with adts header) so if you mux this .aac file into .mp4 there is also no flag in the .mp4 file of course
you understand what i mean?

this has nothing to do with the decoder (ie coreaac, faad2 aso..)
checkout the 3ivx aac decoder (not based on faad2), which can also decode he-aac, it shows the same results

plain .aac files with he-aac are :devil:
i guess the reason why there is no sbr flag in .aac is cause he-aac was added to the mpeg-4 specs long after the adts headers were specified

[karl_lillevold]

nope it will not work as there is nowhere stored in the file that it is a he-aac
Yes, I understand that there is no HE-AAC flag in ADTS, but there must be other ways to detect the presence of the SBR information, because both RealPlayer 10 (w Coding Technologies decoder, RealNetworks parser) and the 3ivx decoder are able to play back these files correctly. This includes both .aac and .mp4, even though the flag is missing in the MP4 files, because they were converted from .aac files without this flag.

[S_O]

ok, no 5.1
There is an option "Downmix to 2 channels" which is enabled by default. To have multichannel output you have to disable it. It would be great if there would be more downmix-options, like in AC3Filter, I´ll ask Toff about that.

On a side-note, 3ivx works well, but when they talk about RealPlayer niceness, at least it asks to take over filetypes. 3ivx does not, and re-mapped mp4 to WMP6.4 and took its icon. Well, at least it's easy to take back
I don´t know if it was RealPlayers fault, but I installed - deinstalled it (RealOne V2) and after that I couldn´t play mp3, mpg etc. anymore. The icons, descriptions etc. were normal like always, but it wouldn´t open. I had to delete all the entries manually in the registry and re-register the filetypes until I could play them again normally.
you both report that the he-aac .aac/.mp4 files get played back properly, but are you 100% sure that coreaac reports aac+sbr as profile?Unfortunately my CoreAAC compile is messed up, the display doesn´t work (only see strange symbols instead of text).
there is no he-aac flag stored in a plain .aac file (even with adts header) so if you mux this .aac file into .mp4 there is also no flag in the .mp4 file of courseI don´t know why, but ADTS files are fine with SBR: I wrote an wav-file and looked at the spectral display with CoolEdit: the file is 44100Hz and contains frequences up to 20kHz. Maybe AAC-Parser can scan the file for SBR.
If you have an ADTS file with SBR, which is not detected there is way to remux it to mp4:
Mux it into matroska and set the SBR flag manually in mkvmerge, then you can remux it to mp4 using GraphEdit.
i guess the reason why there is no sbr flag in .aac is cause he-aac was added to the mpeg-4 specs long after the adts headers were specifiedThey could change the header because of the emphasis flag when SBR was already out, why couldn´t they change the header because of SBR?
Edit: Spelling fix

[bond]

hm funny yes 3ivx seems to be able to detect if it is he-aac or not

but only after i push play, after only connecting it displays "main" profile (same as coreaac) tough i never played a main aac file and after pushing play it changes to he-aac (what coreaac doesnt do, it "continues thinking" its a main aac)

seems to be a good workaround from 3ivx cause it was always said that the plain .aac files doesnt have a sbr flag
that is the reason why he-aac doesnt work in ogm and thats why the user has to manually tick an "aac = he-aac" option when muxing plain .aac files into matroska

maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've tested a few more files with RealMediaSplitter (v1.0.0.8) installed.

Using MPC, WMP9 or the Nero ShowTime: -
mp4_he-aac160_51.mp4 - all crash

Using MPC, WMP9: -
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - perfect
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - stammers

Using Nero ShowTime: -
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - perfect
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - crashes

RealPlayer10 beta: -
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - stammers

Using my Sigma Xcard/JovePlayer: -
rm_he-aac96_51.ram - perfect (except the Xcard only outputs L and R Channels)
mp4_he-aac64.mp4 - Perfect

It's a little odd that rm_he-aac96_51.ram can play ok using my Sigma Xcard/JovePlayer don't you think?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that my Xcard can't play rm_aac256_51.ram. Strange eh!

Cheers

[S_O]

seems to be good stuff cause it was always said that the plain .aac files doesnt have a sbr flagThe ADTS header does not contain a SBR flag. 100% sure.
maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?
Yes, after you have decoded the first frame you know if it´s SBR ot not. Unfortunately the DirectShow-Graph is already build when the first frame is decoded. There is a way of changeing the samplerate afterwards, but Toff don´t know exactly how to do that - and the renderer need to support that. If CoreAAC detects SBR in a file that´s not marked as SBR it resamples the 44100Hz audio down to 22050Hz (like indicated in the header).

[karl_lillevold]

@bond: maybe 3ivx (and real?) found a workaround, which is only possible after playing a part of the file or so?
Yes, when talking to my audio codec colleague about the problems with raw AAC files, I remember we discussed how the CT decoder for un-flagged HE-AAC files would return twice the number of samples as expected, so clearly it detects HE-AAC after it has started decoding. This caused some head-aches for our renderer/parser implementation.

[bond]

hm interesting topic

lets hope that toff finds a way to fix that, cause otherwise these plain .aac could cause more harm than good with people who dont know about these sbr detection issues

better would be to suggest people to use the .ra container and mux from it (as it seems to have such a flag - works with coreaac)
or even more better would be to add support for ripping directly into .mp4 :D
nothing against reals container karl ;)

[karl_lillevold]

yes, it has been interesting. Latest status edited, re-formatted to take into account which AAC decoder is being used. I now have one column of all OKs, using the 3ivx decoder. I may move this to the first post in the FAQ section now.

[bond]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
I now have one column of all OKs, using the 3ivx decoder.did you also test he-aac .aac files in winamp5?
it has its own aac decoder (not using the in_mp4 of faad2)

[[Toff]]

Menno has fixed the bug this afternoon.
I've sent a new build (1.0b9) at the usual place.

About more downmix option, my opinion is why implement a downmix solution in every decoder whereas there is already good filters to do that like MatrixMixer or ChannelDownmixer.

About the HE-AAC detection issue in .aac file, yes it's possible to change the samplerate dynamically but all filters after the decoder need to support this feature which is not the case so I have not investigated this solution.

[karl_lillevold]

@[Toff] - re CoreAAC 1.09: Great! the CoreAAC column is now all ok as well. The HE-AAC .aac and .mp4 clips show as "AAC Main", but play back at 44100, previously played at 22050, so the SBR info appears to be decoded correctly.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've downloaded CoreAAC 1.09, from the usual place.

However, once installed the product version info still says it's CoreAAC 1.08b. And lists the build date as being Oct 24, 2003.

Yours confused.... SMD

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
I have looked into the new demo clips on the new Real10 site,
but so far I could only find bad encoded DVD Trailers...

Where are the real exiting HDTV Clips encoded in Real10 ????

As WMV9 produces great quality with 1280x720p encoding, I want to compare my encoded WMV9 clips to Real10 encoded HDTV clips...

Please post a few links of Real10 encoded HDTV clips.
Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

[bond]

hartiberlin
welcome to doom9 first of all :)

you cant compare two clips encoded from different sources anyways. you would have to get an uncompressed hdtv source and then compress it two times, one time with wmv9 and one time with rv
well lets say three times as you should try mpeg-4 too

[SeeMoreDigital]

This is most true!

If you are interested in HD encodes and/or have any suggestions you wish to share, please take a look the following link: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68292

And yes, fancy not mentioning Mpeg4!

Cheers hartiberlin and welcome to the forum

[hartiberlin]

Originally posted by bond
hartiberlin
welcome to doom9 first of all :)

you cant compare two clips encoded from different sources anyways. you would have to get an uncompressed hdtv source and then compress it two times, one time with wmv9 and one time with rv
well lets say three times as you should try mpeg-4 too

Hi , I am using the high quality MPEG-2 Clips which are available via the web to compare the encoding in WMV9 so far..
I am just looking to the ROB Glaser CES Keynote.
Where is the Spaceshuttle RealVideo HDTV clip ?
Where can it be downloaded from ?

Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

that it still can´t REPLAY a clip !
If you want to watch the same *.RM clip
10 times you always have to restart it manually !
That really sucks especially with short clips..!

Regards, Stefan

[karl_lillevold]

available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes."

HD demos
The problem with HD content is obtaining rights to make available demos for download. Microsoft does not have this problem, simply because they several studios producing HD content themselves..

player repeat
check the player menus: Play -> Continuous play

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes." I'm curious!

What equipment/method are you using to transfer your Digi-Beta 'taped' streams to your PC's for Real10 encoding?

Cheers

[hartiberlin]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
available RV10 demos
I wrote in my first post in this thread : "The showcase clips were encoded off a tape dubbed from composite source, with terrible dot crawl. What can we do when that's what the studios send us. Urgh! It will be re-encoded after CES and when we have received digi-beta tapes."


Well, then just delete this crap from your webserver !
This is just a so bad source that I would have never touched it !
This is even doing your Real10 demo more bad than good !


Originally posted by karl_lillevold

HD demos
The problem with HD content is obtaining rights to make available demos for download. Microsoft does not have this problem, simply because they several studios producing HD content themselves..


Come on...you even make so much money with all your
Premium content sales, that the company REAL can not even
buy themself a new HD Camcorder and record some own footage ?
You don´t need to encode movies from Hollywood, just tape
Rob Glaser on the CES when he tries to speak "200 beats per minutes..."
(Incredible how fast he holds his speeches...is he constantly on drugs ???? ;) )



player repeat
check the player menus: Play -> Continuous play [/B]

Thanks for the tip...
Why just don´t you call it "Replay".... ????

[hartiberlin]

Even Rolf Dieter Klein can afford a JVC HDTV Camcorder.
You can download his HDTV clips here:

www.computertrend.tv

Regards, Stefan.

[karl_lillevold]

@hartiberlin: Re: buy HD camcorder: good idea. I think we should too.

@SeeMoreDigital: Re: Capture from digi-beta: I think an Osprey capture card from Viewcast, with SDI input. Captured in Premiere, exported to AVI, then encoded with Producer. It's a rather cumbersome process.

[karl_lillevold]

@satori
Originally posted by satori
I've tried to 2-pass VBR RV10 with RA10.
But Done result is alway delay video like half speed.
1-pass VBR is OK.
I used job file of "Desktop Downloadable Video.rpjf" in the sample folder of Helix producer10.
I just changed
AvgBitrate 1000000 to 500000
AvgFramerate 30 to 25 because my source is PAL.
Audio codec and flaver to raac 0(AAC 64kbps)

Please tell me what is wrong in the settings?


Source is PAL VCD conver .dat to .mpg
here is avisynth script

DirectShowSource("D:\vodeo\Loso - Khuen Can.mpg")
Trim(130,-500)
crop(0,4,-0,-4)
lanczosresize(320,240)
Thanks for the extra information. I am reasonably sure the problem is the Avisynth DirectShowSource use. I am not sure how stable this is for audio yet, which this particular problem seems to relate to. It also depends on which DirectShow filters handle MPEG decoding of audio and video on your system.

I would suggest you open your script in VirtualDub, choose Direct Stream copy, set in and out points to save a few hundred frames in an AVI file. Does this AVI file play back correctly? Does this AVI file encode correctly?

The most stable method appears to be to open the .mpg file in DVD2AVI, and "Save Project". Then you get a .d2v file you can use MPEG2Source in an AviSynth script, and uncompressed audio, which you combine with the video with AudioDub. This is what most of the automatic GUIs do for you, for instance AutoRV9. You should try this.

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
can the Real10 Encoder also encode directly from
720p or 1080i MPEG-2 streams ?
Also from Transport streams or just system streams ?

If yes, how is the sound handled ?
Will it be possible to encode the sound with it in one go ?
Thanks !

P.S: WM Encoder can encode directly from MPEG-2 streams !
;)

[karl_lillevold]

Yes, you can encode any format you can play via DirectShow, including MPEG2-HD and WMV-HD, since Producer uses DirectShow to read its input. Please read the first post in the sticky thread RealVideo Information thread, section "Supported input formats to producer". Thanks.

[C0mPr355]

Im having trouble getting any PSNR readings to function correctly when doing PSNR for rv10. Perhaps I have missed something out of the blue that appeared recently to fix this. The main thing is that when I run the AVS script through either VD or mpclassic (or even graphedit) the movie plays through fine but at the end it hangs and does not close out the session. When viewing the PSNR data it definately appears to be messed up. A lot of areas that show 26s or lower pop up and I know that this is not possible (since the usual low is around 37-38 for these clips with VP6 and I know they are close to reals). Anyways, has this happened to anyone recently? Sagittaire maybe ?

here is my avs script for outputting yuv PSNR:

# --> Video Opening <--

video=DirectShowSource("f:\320x176.rmvb",23.976)
#video=AviSource("c:\")
video=ConvertToYUY2(video)
source=AviSource("f:\skyshort-320x176.avi")
source=ConvertToYUY2(source)



# --> PSNR analysis <--
return Compare(video,source,"YUV","f:\320x176.txt")

[slavickas]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Yes, you can encode any format you can play via DirectShow, including MPEG2-HD and WMV-HD, since Producer uses DirectShow to read its input. Please read the first post in the sticky thread RealVideo Information thread, section "Supported input formats to producer". Thanks.

I was unable to transcode mpeg2 svcd on freshly installed winxp + nero 6 ultra edition, although players could play that file

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by slavickas
I was unable to transcode mpeg2 svcd on freshly installed winxp + nero 6 ultra edition, although players could play that file Well if you do not have a mpeg2 directshow filter installed, you won't be able to transcode. You just can't intall say WinDVD or PowerDVD and expect to transcode. Nero 6 probably lets you encode to mepg2, but not play it back, nor install a direct show filter. Google for Elcard Moonlight, they make what you want. It costs $30 though, AFAIK. There is a free 30 day demo though I think, it places there logo in the upper right corner (stationary), but after the trial period it jumps all over the picture.

EDIT: You'll also need to install and setup AC3Filter to get audio. You can google for that too.

Otherwise, just use dvd2avi and make an .avs to feed into Producer. It's more work, but its free with no stationary or jumping logos and you can put in your own filter, if you want.

[karl_lillevold]

@slavickas: Yes, I am afraid many DirectShow filters are not expecting to be used for anything but playback, and many MPEG-2 dshow filters do not work when used as input for Producer, although some do. There may be audio skips, break-ups, video might open in separate window etc etc. I will add this to the Info thread.

@C0mPr355: Sagittaire would know how to do this. I have seen the same problem too. I think you have to skip 1 frame to begin with in the source, to match up the frames, and 1 at the end to prevent the lockup. Use Trim. However, I have not had this problem with the latest Avisynth 2.53 and RealMediaSplitter at all, so first I would upgrade both of those.

[hartiberlin]

Hi,
will there also be some standalone Players,
that can play RealVideo 10 in normal
or HD resolution ?

If there will be no standalone player hardware,
I will stay with WMV, cause there will be soon
a few DVD player with Windows Media Video 9 support and
also WMVHD support.

Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

How is this streaming media Hardware
player called, that Rob Glaser showed in the CES 2004
keynote ?

Can that play also HD content encoded in RV10
on a big screen or projektor ?
What is the maximum resolution it will play in RV 10 ?

Where can more infos be found on this hardware player ?
What other formats can it play ?
Also WMV and MPEG2 and DIVX ?

Regards, Stefan.

[bond]

Originally posted by hartiberlin
If there will be no standalone player hardware,
I will stay with WMV, cause there will be soon
a few DVD player with Windows Media Video 9 support and
also WMVHD support.so you did already test hd wmv9 vs hd mpeg-4 vs hd rv10 content?
cause hd mpeg-4 hardware decoders will come soon too ;)

[hartiberlin]

XVid HD standalone player would also be fine !

[wata]

Originally posted by hartiberlin
How is this streaming media Hardware
player called, that Rob Glaser showed in the CES 2004
keynote ?

Can that play also HD content encoded in RV10
on a big screen or projektor ?
What is the maximum resolution it will play in RV 10 ?

Where can more infos be found on this hardware player ?
What other formats can it play ?
Also WMV and MPEG2 and DIVX ?

Regards, Stefan.

i use xbox and graphic card video-out to play realmedia contents

[Sirber]

Why is HE-AAC listed as "Stereo Music" instead of "Surround"? Does HE-AAC supports 48kHz? Does HE-AAC keep surround informations?

[iwod]

Oh.. has anybody test the new EHQ 100? Because the what used to be EHQ High in Rv9 is now only something like Medium in Rv10. And 85 is high for Rv10 and there is a 100 as well. Just wanted to know if that has improve anything as well.........

[karl_lillevold]

@Sirber: Why is HE-AAC listed as "Stereo Music" instead of "Surround"? Does HE-AAC keep surround informations?
Stereo ~= Surround. it's just a matter of tuning to maintain the out-of-phase surround information. Some the the low bitrate 'cook' flavors were tuned for Surround, thus the need to separate Surround and Stereo. The HE-AAC flavors have not been tuned for either, and will work for both stereo and surround, but I have no experience with their ability to preserve the surround out-of-phase information.

HE-AAC at 48kHz:
not yet, but I intend to file an enhancement request.

@iwod: complexity levels:
RV10@high is the same as RV9-EHQ@85. RV9@high is the same as RV9@65. RV10@100 is not really much use, but is a tiny improvement over @high(85). My goal is to improve it even further, but I have not had time yet.

[Sirber]

HE-AAC keeps surround information, as I can see in Matrix Muxer :D

[jcsston]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Re Matroska file-writer for Producer

It would be fantastic if someone wrote a Matroska file-writer plugin for Producer. I am pretty sure we would then distribute this file-writer with Milestone builds of Helix Producer 10.
Here the first public release of such a plugin.
helix-mkvwriter-v0.0.2 (http://corecodec.org/project/showfiles.php?group_id=15&release_id=122)
I have tested it with AAC audio, RealVideo 10, cook audio, and sipr audio. (I couldn't get producer to encode any HE-AAC)

Of course being able to mux RealVideo and RealAudio into Matroska with this plugin is just a coincidence ;)

[zedude]

jcsston , nice plugin :)
it works perfectly, and with racp as well ;)
unfortunatly, as language for streams is english(default) one can not edit this info with matroskaprop, i'm quite sure you can fix it :D thanks !

[Sirber]

GREAT!!! :D :D :D

Gonna be easier for GUIs (mine of course! mouhahahahaha)

[TFC]

For sure that sounds really nice! :D
Long time not being on the way and happy to see all those improvements, nice nice nice !!!!

Keep up the good the vibes all, and allways the smile! ;)

C ya

TFC

PS: @sirber >> Hey man bouge toi les fesses un peu elle est pas finie cette gui encore ??!! :p :cool:

[Sirber]

Hey man, move your ass your GUI isn't finished yetHum.... I'm fulltime now at webernic. I don't have much freetime for my projects :(

[TFC]

I understand for sure ;) and that's normal personnal things before the rest ;)

Keep up the good job!

TFC